Speaker 1: I do really think
that we have like a real claim

to being a real relevant
artistic vanguard that's doing

something new in this period of
time in a way that's a little

bit hard to find elsewhere, you
know.

So I feel pretty strongly about
that and that's kind of part of

why we're making this big bet
with starting the studio and

making cycles and all the things
that we're doing.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Curated a
series of conversations with the

people shaping culture and
technology, this big bet with

starting the studio and making
not be considered investment

advice.

We're hyped to share that
season three of the Curated Pot

is now powered by Towns.

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started.

Today, in the final episode of
our third season, I'm joined by

artist, game developer and
co-founder of the Material

Protocol Art Studio, matto Matto
.

We discuss everything from what
it means for art history to be

open to blockchain as a material
, the dynamism of human beings

and his latest project Cycles,
which was released through the

Material Protocol Art Studio,
and I couldn't be more excited

to have him on the show.

Gm meta, how you doing?

Speaker 1: gm boone.

I'm doing great man.

Thanks for having me on
absolutely dude.

Speaker 2: Uh, it is, yeah, it's
.

It's been a, it's been a treat
to like really watch, um, yeah,

like just like straight up, like
been able to watch you ever

like I think I found you in the
113 discord, you know, or the

math castle's discord um, and
it's been really dope just to

like watch, like you and like
that entire class of people,

there's like an entire cohort of
like uh math castles, like the

math castles army, uh, just
building the coolest shit now,

um, definitely, definitely no, I
was just talking to my brother

about that this morning.

Speaker 1: you know, and it's
such a good feeling to have this

kind of cohort, this kind of
class of people coming up with

us and, you know, the having
other people kind of alongside

us that are doing great projects
as well and making great art

and and building great things,
you know it's it's really

motivating and uh, just feels
great, you know, to do this

stuff in the in the kind of
context of a, of a little scene,

so really appreciative.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, absolutely
.

Uh, I remember there was not
many.

There was not many things to be
excited about in 2023.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a little
bit of a dark patch.

Speaker 2: There it was.

How many cycles have you been
through, man?

Speaker 1: uh, encrypted, yeah
yeah, my kind of crypto history.

I I first, just as a total
civilian, got interested in

bitcoin and ethereum in like
2017, maybe late 2016, something

like that, but, you know, just
really had no idea about

anything.

But I but I got on ct, you know
, and this was like when, like

kobe, with kobe and stardust and
like you know, we're like the

real main characters and, uh,
you know, and that was a very

interesting, crazy experience.

And then I, you know, I didn't
actually end up losing money but

almost, you know, and then sold
.

Of course I sold, like once it
got back up a little bit, I sold

and got out.

But you know, after that I was
like just paying attention, you

know, or you know, half an eye,
paying attention, kind of

watching it happen, but kind of
had internalized like, oh, this

is really is something.

And then it was really.

I guess it was 21, maybe when,
or maybe it was like late 21,

maybe early 22.

Um, a couple of months before
terraforms came out, was

actually an animator friend,
kind of animator, art director

friend of ours.

Um was getting people hitting
him up to do work on nft

projects.

This was like post board apes
when like stuff was really going

crazy, like kind of really like
peak mania, yeah, I guess late

21.

And then, uh, and he was like,
hey, can you?

It was like you're a developer
and you like you know a little

bit about crypto, can you like
look at this like I'm trying to

understand this.

You know, maybe I want to do
something.

And I was like, yeah, sure,
I'll look at it.

And you know, I mean I've told
this story in public before, but

most of what I saw at that time
I was like this sucks, you know

, like I was not.

Uh, you know I've been, um, some
form of artist.

You know I was a musical artist
for a long time, but I've

always been very engaged with
visual art and you know I had a

lot of my friends coming up,
were were artists and art

students and stuff.

So I've always been around
visual art and had a passion for

it and the stuff that was
getting a lot of attention for

me aesthetically just like
sucked bad.

You know there was like a lot
of really, I mean, and that's

not to.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

It's a taste, it's a taste
thing, right.

It's like obviously, people
like stuff.

That I don, I mean, and that's
not to.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

It's a taste, it's a taste
thing, right, it's like,

obviously, people like stuff
that I don't like and I'm not

just saying it's like
objectively bad or whatever it

but um, but I was not, like you
know, excited by it, um, but

then, um, loot happened, and
loot was like very interesting

to me because I was, you know,
working in video games at the

time and it had this game
element to it and this open

source, uh, kind of bottom-up
world building thing, and that

was very fascinating, and so I
kind of got involved and I met a

bunch of the people who were
involved.

Um, you know, dom hoffman and,
yeah, um, three wave was making

this thing called cribs and
caverns and I kind of helped

them a little bit with that.

So that kind of got me engaged
and and talking to people and

and I was like this is kind of
more like and also it felt to me

that was, you know, one of the
first times where I started to

think about, um, what are the
things on the blockchain that we

can be doing, that we can't be
doing somewhere else, you know,

uh, and that felt like a real
new thing under the sun.

Right, there wasn't.

I couldn't point to something
else in like traditional gaming

or whatever.

That was like exactly like that
.

So I was like, oh, this is
something new.

And then so that kind of got me
more engaged and kind of taking

the nft space more seriously
and paying attention.

And then, pretty shortly
afterwards, terraforms came out,

and terraforms was really this
combination of terraforms by

math castles for folks who don't
know.

Uh was this combination of this
rich um aesthetics that you

know, this kind of like very
digital, native aesthetics,

which really appealed to me with
all this kind of rich cultural

background.

And it turns out, you know now,
later, I know 113 and I are

like kind of the same age and
grew up with like a lot of the

same.

You know liking a lot of the
same age and grew up with like a

lot of the same, you know
liking a lot of the same things,

and so there's like really a
lot in there.

That kind of like resonates
with me aesthetically and

culturally, and then also this
deep technical engagement with

the medium and this feeling of
doing something.

You know that even now, three,
four years later, uh still quite

unique in the, you know,
blockchain, art, crypto, art

world, you know, um, so that
kind of like deep engagement

with the, with the medium.

It really felt like, you know,
I had kind of gotten the idea of

like, oh, okay, maybe we could
really do something unique here.

And then I was like, oh, wow,
okay, somebody really is doing

this and it's something good.

So then really early on I met
113, and then I got in the

MathCastle's Discord, started
meeting all these other people

started building some little
things alongside Terraforms.

I made this animation called
the Long View.

That was kind of one of the
first visual, visible

representations of the
Terraforms hyper castle and and

just you know, kind of went,
went from there, kind of found

that group, you know, of people
that kind of were like on my

wavelength and that was.

I really don't think I would
have stayed without that, you

know, because, yeah, it wasn't.

You know the dgen thing, I get
it, I.

I like making money too.

I'm not as big of a degen or
gambler as a lot of people, but

I get it.

I don't turn my nose up at that
, but that's not what I want to

build my life around.

You know what I mean.

Like that doesn't get me out of
bed in the morning it's like

sure it could be fun to gamble
on some coins or whatever, flip

something, but it's not
something I want to really spend

hundreds of hours of my life on
.

But the art side of things, it
really does do that for me.

So I kind of found that group
of people who were approaching

this in that way and that really
kind of drew me in deeper.

Speaker 2: That's an amazing
backstory, man, I mean.

I think I really I was still
just really green and such a

deer in the headlights, uh, when
loot came out, you know, I was,

uh, first cycler, as I was, I
came in and like at the very

beginning of 2021.

So, yeah, uh, you know, I
really underestimated loot.

Um, you know, I really didn't
get it.

I didn't, you know, I was still
.

You know, I think we're all
visual creatures by nature.

Obviously we have eyes and we,
you know, everything is visual

around us.

But I was still just so I just
I derived so much meaning, uh,

from from visuals, you know, and
really had a hard time with

concepts, you know, um,
especially when it came to like

art or anything, uh, art related
, uh, I really got a big unlock.

It was probably about a couple
years of being in this space

that really, you know, allowed
me to do that.

So it's and the more and more
it's funny, like I bring it up,

the more and more I talk to
people, like a lot of people

always reference loot, you know,
as like the kind of it's like

really big watershed, you know,
like kind of this, like big

awakening for a lot of people,
you know, um yeah, that's

fascinating.

Speaker 1: No, and I think I
mean and this is something that

I really love that is kind of
surprising is the number of

folks I don't know maybe it's
not surprising, but the number

of folks who have really had
this kind of art education

through crypto and crypto art
you know what I mean and started

to appreciate all this
different kinds of art,

conceptual art, you know,
non-visual art, all these kind

of things that, uh, you know,
through this, uh, this scene in

this medium that you know.

I don't think that's the first
thing that a lot of people think

of when they think of crypto,
you know, but but it's

definitely something I see
happening a lot, you know

actually yeah, it really is.

Speaker 2: I mean, we all joke,
or at least the class that I was

came in with.

Um, I love how crypto like has,
like you know, high school

classes, uh, how we it's funny.

Speaker 1: I really think about
it that way too.

I'm like okay, this is like the
.

You know, the punks are like
the seniors and, like you know,

the m'ladies are probably like
sophomores now, and you know,

and everybody is kind of like
competing against each other.

You know, it's like kind of
friendly competition oh yeah,

it's really funny it was great.

Speaker 2: I I saw, you know,
like that little, the meme, with

like the little kid and the gun
and he like puts his like hand

to his face.

You know he's crying like.

Uh, I saw that.

It was, like you know, the
class of 24 experiencing their

first dip.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, I mean
that's important too, because

it's true.

It's like that was really true
for me living through 17, even

as a very casual kind of tourist
kind of person.

I, you see a cycle, you start
to understand, oh you know, yeah

, this is, this is a thing like,
okay, yeah, and that gives you

this different perspective and
you start to kind of look at the

space differently.

So, yeah, it's really funny.

It's funny now that we're
talking about, like first

cyclers, second cyclers, like I
guess I'm uh.

Well, what cycle are we in now?

Are we complete?

Are we starting a new cycle?

Is that?

I guess maybe I'm a third
cycler?

Speaker 2: I would say so, yeah,
I mean, that's the way I'm

viewing it.

Um, I see a lot of people
calling tops and shit like that,

but I'm just like, if I know, I
don't know much, but what I do

know is the feeling between,
let's just call it, june and

November.

We haven't even gotten close,
like, like I would say I

wouldn't say we're not close to
that, I would say we're closer

to that than we are another.

You know another bear market,
but say we're closer to that

than we are another you know
another bear market, um, but

like we haven't even, like we've
like hinted at that, you know.

And until that feeling comes
back, we're like there's nowhere

near.

This is the top, um, so yeah, I
would call this like a third

optimism.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I, I think
I'm, I'm with you.

I don't think this moment has
topped out yet, although I do

think that it may be that the
pure reflexive parabolic cycle

concept may actually be somewhat
invalidated.

So I think that's.

You know, if I put on, you know
, matto, market analyst hat,

which we all are little amateur
market analysts and crypto, uh,

who learn all this like, learn
about macro, learn all this

funny stuff.

You know the, I think the advent
of the etfs and the tradfi kind

of inflows being this new force
in the market and the size of

the market, like the market cap
of bitcoin is going to be take a

lot of capital for bitcoin to
double.

Yeah, from here, right, so,
yeah, the idea that we're going

to do a parabolic 5x on the
majors and then another 80

drawdown or whatever, I just
don't think that, actually, and

I've seen some people like cl
and other, like you know, crypto

twitter ogs kind of saying
things like this that like maybe

the cycle meta is um coming to
a close, you know, for these

kind of reasons.

So I think that's like an
important thing to think about

as well, if you're, you know,
kind of trying to position and

all this stuff is that like,
yeah, don't just think, cause

it's all happened and repeated
really cleanly before that

that's going to continue to
happen, you know that's really

fascinating.

Speaker 2: You bring that up.

I've I've wondered that kind of
quietly I've never really

talked about it about like when
know, is this idea or meta of

like the three to four year
cycle, you know, like, is this

going to just continue?

Um, or will there be a spot
where we kind of take the

guardrails off of that a little
bit and maybe it's kind of like,

it kind of goes, maybe not in
tandem with the stock market,

but behaves similar to the stock
market, where it's just kind of

a it's you know, it's more
lendy, therefore it's not going

to experience so many drawdowns
exactly.

Speaker 1: I don't think, like,
think about it if bitcoin has a

drawdown now, think about a, the
number of people who've been

through cycles and the trad fi
people.

I don't think the trad fi
people are going to panic.

Sell on a 10% dip.

You know, yeah, which retail
used to do all the time.

That's why it was like, so
reflexive.

You know it would be like a 10%
dip down and suddenly everybody

freaks out and then it's a 40%
dip down.

You know what I mean.

Like, yeah, and and because you
were talking about whatever, I

don't know hundreds of millions
of dollars as opposed to

billions or trillions of dollars
where we are now.

So I do think the picture is
changing and things are maturing

and I do think we're starting
now to shift over to the NFT

world.

I think we're starting to see
that in the NFT world and please

, as I'm going to speak frankly
here and as I say this, any kind

of NFT evangelists out there,
please know that I'm speaking

from a place of love, low effort
, low quality work that was both

on the art side, the pfp side,
basically in any category.

Yeah, that would, because it
was an nft, just literally any

nft would kind of get some
amount of attention and, yeah,

liquidity thrown at it, right,
and I think we're going through

and the kind of down cycle that
we just went through the and the

market, the people who are
still around and engaged.

I don't think we have a lot of
new people buying NFTs.

It's more still the same kind
of core group of people now and

they're better educated, they're
more critical.

A lot of people have started to
learn about art history talking

about the art category.

A lot of people have started to
learn about art history talking

about the art category and so
that kind of anything goes vibe

that we had in the last NFT
cycle I think is over and we're

going to see a shift towards
greater call it, professionalism

, for lack of a better term.

You know the the kind of
anarchic, amateur throwing

spaghetti at the wall mode of
which I mean, I'm a I'm an

anarchist, you know.

So I'm happy for that kind of
stuff to happen.

I would rather that than a very
gatekept kind of mode.

But I do think we're entering a
kind of a new second period

where it's like no, we're not
just buying any generative part

of, of raising the standards and
doing things with a lot of

quality to kind of show that.

Speaker 2: Totally dude and I
think you guys are doing a

really great job at that.

It's really refreshing to see
as much as I like to make very

similar to you, as much as I
like to make very similar to you

, as much as, like, I love to
make money off vapor.

Um, it's a, it's a wonderful
part about crypto.

Uh, is you know there, like
there has to be something real

for me to really get excited
about?

Uh, that is doing something
that challenges, you know,

perspective, belief, you know.

And if I reflect back to one of
the things I've heard, you know

, one of the more coherent
things I've heard 113 talk about

is art history being open, you
know?

Yeah, and that is something
that's really stuck with me for

a long time.

Speaker 1: I mean that is such
an exciting, motivating idea.

I mean that is really a core
idea for us and I think that's

an idea that's really resonated
with a lot of people.

You know, and I really have a
I've thought a lot about this

and and spoken to 113 a lot
about this you know, the, the I

really think you can make and
and a bunch of other artists.

You know, like the, the, I've
been kind of trying this out

with people to see if people can
kind of like invalidate it as

like a thesis.

But you know, my thesis is
basically one of the kind of

like minimum requirements for
something to be entered into the

artistic canon.

Right, to kind of become a part
of art history is some kind of

novelty, right, a part of art
history is some kind of novelty,

right that there has to be
something new, a new way of

seeing, a new concept, a new
technique, a new medium, uh,

some element that differentiates
it, excuse me, that

differentiates it from what's
come before and that makes it

notable.

Right that there's a, there's a
kind of a news element to this.

Right, it's like we're not
going to report the 999th time

somebody has washed their hair,
right, that's not a newsworthy

event, right, and with art there
has to be some domain of

newness, and that has become
harder and harder as the body of

art in the world grows.

Right Now we're in this stage
where it's really easy for

anybody to be an artist.

Art supplies of every different
kind have been, like, extremely

democratized, whether physical,
digital, you know, access to an

audience is extremely
democratized through social

media and the internet, you know
.

So we're in this stage where
there is, just now, an ocean of

creative production, and one of
the kind of ways to make at

least a kind of a minimal claim
that something should be

considered for inclusion in the
artistic canon is to use new

materials.

Right, and and this, I think,
is one of, like, one of our, one

of the ideas that we're trying
to kind of push on um with with

our studio material protocol
arts, is that using cryptography

, blockchain, blockchain you
know, this new world of

cryptography that's coming
through ZK, programmable

cryptography networks, you know,
using these new materials, kind

of definitionally, is a way
that we can make something that

is inherently new, and then, of
course, it has to be

aesthetically pleasing,
emotionally resonant, culturally

relevant, right.

It has to do all these other
things to be a good artwork,

right, and to draw attention and
to, you know, stand on its own

two legs in the context of
culture, right, and to be

important to people.

But I think, as a kind of like
a minimum, we can say okay, in a

kind of like a blockchain
formalist way, or like a

cryptographic formalist way we
can say look, this is at least

deserves to be considered on the
basis of the fact that it's new

.

And I think that is.

You know, I haven't found, you
know, any of my artists, friends

, trad art or crypto art who
have been able to kind of point

out to me why that's wrong, you
know.

And so I think that that is
like, uh, that's kind of my like

elaboration on this idea that
art history is open.

It's like there are, you know,
and I think it's it's something

that we there is this it well,
we see, right, um, dean kissick

wrote this article, the painted
protest, and there's this kind

of discussion of this kind of
malaise in the contemporary art

world, in the chat art world, of
this feeling of exhaustion.

Right, there's this now, this
kind of reaction against the

like so-called woke artistic
politics that have been going on

, uh and this.

But also, I think there's just
an exhaustion with the with the

20th century artistic canon.

People like what do we do with
painting?

What do we do with sculpture?

Like what are we doing, right?

How are we finding new
territory, right?

And I do think that what we're
doing in crypto art, obviously

it's not for everybody.

Not everybody resonates with
digital work.

You know there's plenty of
reasons for people not to like

it, but I do really think that
that we have like a real claim

to being a real relevant
artistic vanguard that's doing

something new in this period of
time in a way that's a little

bit hard to find elsewhere, you
know.

So I feel pretty strongly about
that and that's kind of part of

why we're making this big bet
with starting the studio and and

making cycles and and all the
things that we're doing dude,

it's so hard to figure out, like
there's so many places.

Speaker 2: I want to go with
everything you just said.

Uh, I mean I let's go, yeah,
starting starting off with like

the exhaustion point um around.

Yeah, the exhaustion of the
20th century or the 21st century

, um, I mean that in and of
itself is like it's.

It's such a refreshing thing to
hear because it kind of uh, one

thing I have a lot of trouble
with is like discerning.

You know what I'm feeling, why
I'm feeling it?

Because a lot of my emotions are
are pretty strong and they're

pretty fluid and I don't always,
I can't always identify, you

know, uh, or it's harder for me
to identify some of these.

So, like, when you say that,
but when someone says something,

you know it, uh, like the
exhaustion of of this current

century, or like you know every
medium prior to this, like that

really hits a strong note,
because I've chatted about this

with a lot of friends, or
actually really a lot with one

friend, and you know we're
talking about the

democratization of everything
you know, and like what happens

to things once they get
democratized.

You know, if you look at, if
you look at music, look what

happened Spotify democratized
music.

Now, I'm a musician, you look
at it 100%.

Speaker 1: I mean that's my
background before this.

Now I'm a musician, you look at
it.

A hundred percent.

I mean that's my background
before this, you know, was as an

underground independent
musician.

So this I mean that's a whole
rabbit hole.

We can go down if you want and
I'll rant about I still don't

have a Spotify account.

Spotify, it's fucking on site.

Daniel Ek, like I fucking hate
Spotify.

Speaker 2: Do you have any
streaming service at all, though

?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I do, which
makes me a little bit of a

sellout whatever.

But I'd use Apple Music, which
I would not hold them up as

being better.

But just, I was running an
independent label when Spotify

came out and I got those checks
for point zero, zero zero three

cents and whatever.

I fucking got those.

You know like I saw those come
up on my statements from my you

know digital streaming
aggregator service that was

paying us, you know yeah so I
fucking hate them.

So and honestly, it's a lot of
it's.

That experience has a lot to do
with why I'm in crypto, you

know is fuck the platforms you
you know, totally, dude, totally

.

Speaker 2: I mean that makes a
lot of sense.

I'm a fellow title subscriber,
let's go.

Yeah, big fan of the flat
quality.

It's the only one that can do
it, at least respectively, in my

opinion.

So, yeah, a big fan of that.

But yeah, no, that's completely
.

Yeah, that's completely
understandable.

I mean it's cool to kind of
hear, because usually when

people find crypto, most people
just don't stumble into crypto

like really happy about the
world, yeah, no, it's true,

right, you have to be a little
bit contrarian or a little

fucking angry about something,
yeah.

Because you talk about some of
these concepts and even for me

the funny part is I came in 21.

I didn't understand crypto
until you could put pictures on

tokens.

I'm like that makes sense to me
.

Yeah, as a fellow gamer, like I
bought plenty of weapon skins.

Speaker 1: I bought characters,
so like yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 2: This really made
sense, but I still really

couldn't.

I still wasn't, didn't really
understand the whole narrative

behind Bitcoin, and the moment
that I did was when the canadian

government shut down, you know,
people's bank accounts under

like a.

They declared like an act of
war to do so, even though it

wasn't yeah, and that's when I
was like was this the trucker

convoy?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I was
like oh okay, bitcoin makes

sense now.

Speaker 1: Okay, this all starts
bro, when they can de-platform

you from your fucking bank
account, like that's you know?

Yeah, yeah, it's insane problem
.

Speaker 2: It is a problem, um,
no, while we're on this music

beat, though, like one thing
I've noticed and we're gonna

probably jump all over the place
here, so it's just uh, really,

whatever rabbit hole life you
know is is the current flavor.

But something on cycles, uh,
and it might help to maybe start

with cycles.

But, um, like, one thing I
noticed is on your tweets, when

you were committing, you know,
these cycles to the chain, uh,

or if I I'm not sure if I got
that right, so correct me if,

like, that terminology is a
little wrong.

But okay, like you said, listen
here and there's like a website

to listen to.

Uh, there's like a there,
there's a, yeah, just something

to listen to.

Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so let me
break it down.

I'll lay it out for you?

Speaker 2: I really need to know
about that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so.

So it's a little bit confusing
because Material as a studio has

two pieces that are out, but
the second piece, which is

called Modulation Studies, which
was part of the World Computer

Sculpture Garden contract show
curated by zero xff, that ended

up basically coming out before
cycles fully released right,

because cycles basically fully
released in its final form

yesterday, the modulation
studies came out.

Uh well, it's funny, I can tell
you like 65 days ago because

I've been doing, I've been doing
these daily studies for it.

So I know actually, or 66 or 67
or something.

It's funny.

I realized I like fucked up the
numbering in there somewhere.

Um, but the so, modulation
studies is a piece that was

commissioned by xerox fff.

Um, last summer.

Actually we were showing him.

He was, so he's an artist and
an on artist and he won the

optimism art prize with his.

Oh yeah, piece which was kind of
make, showing graphing

connections of on chain movement
across chains, and it was a

pretty technically impressive
piece.

And then he did honest work,
which was a terrific piece where

it's like you, it's almost like
a to do list, but with on chain

conditions and pretty
technically rigorous and also

conceptually rich.

And so he just was like around
and I knew one when three was

friends with him, whatever, and
at a certain point it was like

around and and I knew 113 was
friends with him, whatever, and

at a certain point it was like I
forget I was in berlin for the

summer and I I had like three
different like whatever coffee

drinks, meetings with different
crypto art people and his name

just like kept coming up and I
was like yo, so I just messaged

him.

I was like hey, we like your
name just keeps coming up and

like I see you around, I, I
respect your work, like we

should talk whatever.

So we had this long call him
and me and Neocree.

We showed him cycles because we
were in the middle of working on

cycles and and we really hit it
off and we realized we were

really exploring similar kind of
like um, you know, network art,

protocol, art type concepts and
uh, so he invited us to join

the world computer sculpture
garden show, um, which you know

had this pretty specific set of
constraints that it was like

everything was fully on chain.

The show itself was a list of
contract addresses which would

then generate this website, um,
and so we needed to come, we.

He basically commissioned us to
do a piece for the show and

also it wasn't a requirement,
but it was a kind of a

suggestion that the pieces for
the show would be on chain,

pieces that weren't nfts or
tokens or for sale, right, right

, which was a very it's funnily
enough, it's like quite a rare

concept in our space, right,
yeah, you know, or I mean, maybe

for obvious reasons, but you
know, that was a cool challenge

and kind of like led us towards
making a different type of work,

and we had been interested in
this kind of thinking that 113

had been putting out about what
he was calling art chains, which

is basically l2, like, uh,
systems where you can do art

computation and compute
something and then bring it back

to l1, right, store it on l1 or
store a result or something on

l1, and that you know, and I
like just to kind of like

disambiguate around the term art
chain, like I think it's a, you

could just call it a roll-up.

It actually is like just
technically meets the definition

of a roll-up that, like,
vitalik has put out or whatever

Gotcha.

But I think when you say
roll-up, people are like, oh,

yeah, and I'm going to bridge my
money over, and then somebody's

going to launch a shit coin and
we're going to gamble, right,

and it's like, yeah, sure, but
that's not what we're doing here

, right?

So giving it a different name
is just a way to kind of point

people towards that.

But technically, what we built
for modulation studies is a, is

actually a zk roll-up, um, a
kind of a minimalistic zk

roll-up, like a small and simple
one, um, and basically what we

can do with that is because it
allows us to do things that we

couldn't do on l1.

Uh, like in this case I'm.

Every day I go to this website,
this little edit private editor

website that we built for the
piece, and I type into a text

file changes to a modular
generative synthesizer that is

only editable in this text
configuration file and the

entire typing history including,
like me, typing and deleting

and is recorded.

So every keystroke is recorded,
uh, and then is able to be

played back and is also recorded
on the art chain and eventually

vaulted back to l1 although,
like usually, we do that like

once a week or something like,
and when gas is low because it's

like it.

So it's not just continuously
updating on L1, but it is on the

art chain and then on the
modulationsmaterialwork website

you can play back the, and
actually I kind of want to

change the UX because it's a
little confusing, right, but

there's a play button that plays
back the typing and then

there's a speaker button that
plays back the typing and then

there's a speaker button that
plays the audio.

Uh, and the audio is a
generative musical system that

is different every time you
listen to it, based on the

configurations encoded in the
text file and the, the kind of

like bigger art concept behind
it is kind of drawing

inspiration from.

You know, there was this moment,
let's say in 21, where a lot of

artists were experimenting with
nfts and there was the feeling

that you could kind of do
anything with nfts, like you

could, yeah, tokenize your dance
performance, yeah, you could.

You know, your your documentary
film like yep, and that didn't

fully play out.

It turned out that, or maybe
that will make a resurgence

right, and we'll see that become
a thing with the art world, but

for now, with the kind of
crypto native audience which is

the primary audience for nfts,
people really are much more

engaged with things that are
kind of like more closely tied

to the medium.

And so what?

This was a little bit of like
like okay, we have this concept

of like conceptual art and
performance art, and how can we

do that in a way that is like
cryptographically verifiable and

like kind of extremely bound
with the medium?

And so this idea of making an
art chain where the, the very

performance itself, is done
within a cryptographically

provable medium, using this zk
tech, uh, we think is something

that, um, you know, is a, is a
new thing and is an addition to

this kind of history of, in this
case, kind of like performance

art or conceptual art on chain.

Um, and then there's just the,
you know, kind of like, in

contrast to some performance art
, which might be like quite dry

or theoretical or like imaginary
, there it's like it's music, so

there's something that you can
listen to, you know, and that's

something like I would say, in
in the way we sit among all

these different artists and many
of our friends and so on.

Like I am very kind of
motivated by concepts and ideas,

but I also do just love to have
some music or some beautiful

animated images or you know.

So I like having kind of like
visible and enjoyable and

aesthetic surface, you know, and
so that probably puts us like a

little bit away from the like
more pure conceptualist type.

You know, I kind of like some,
you know, at some points I'll

say yeah, what we're doing is
kind of like related to

conceptual art, art, but I
wouldn't call it like pure

conceptual art kind of for that
reason I got you we do like to

have this kind of aesthetic
layer to it as well so question

on the audio.

Speaker 2: Though, one thing I
did notice and this might be, I

don't know if hopefully I'm not
pointing out a flaw, uh, but

like when I switch tabs it stops
, yeah okay, yeah, I was like it

is a flaw, it's totally a flaw.

Speaker 1: Well, it's just a I
what I need to do.

Yeah, I mean full disclosure
and I don't I'm not embarrassed

by that.

You know the way that
modulation studies came together

.

We stopped working on cycles,
you know, or I mean neocree was

like neocree and I are like
always doing different things,

so sometimes he's working on
something, I'm working on

something else, so we're not
like always all working on the

same thing, but the you know the
way that, uh, we kind of did

modulation studies in the middle
of the development and this and

the private sale process for
cycles.

It was kind of a sprint to get
it done for the deadline of the

show.

So there are things I would
like to go back and adjust and

actually that specifically both
on desktop and on mobile, it's

like I try to play the sketches
in the browser on mobile and my

phone goes to sleep and then the
music stops playing.

So there's like a couple of
things like that that I actually

do want to fix, just as like ux
type experiences.

But yeah, right now what you
can do is just pop.

If you pop the tab out, and
it's on its own if you change

tabs in the same window, it'll
stop, but if you pop the tab out

and it goes in the background,
it'll keep playing but I thought

that was really.

Speaker 2: I thought it was kind
of funny though, because like

it, not that, it's not that it
completely stopped, but it like

paused no, it hangs.

That was I'm like it hangs on a
note, it like sticks on a note

yeah, and I'm like I I kind of
like that totally well it's real

time.

Speaker 1: You're, you're,
you're getting the experience

that it's real time.

It's not a recording.

Speaker 2: You know totally yeah
, it kind of reminds me of like

you know when, when, like games
like halo came out, like, uh,

halo 2 came out, uh, the game
kind of just shipped the way it

was and like there was a lot of
bugs, but they became like part

of the kind of like iconic, yeah
, like the bxr, the bxb, the

super jump, like all these
things that were just clearly,

you know, and it's like I think
that the yeah, modulation

studies it's pretty raw, it's
like, and also the sketches that

I make.

Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like
fucking crackling and noise and

shit.

And you know, it's like because
I do them.

You know, I spend probably
between half an hour to an hour

a day on them, but I can't, I'm
not going to sit there for four

hours.

I can't, cause I'm doing them
every day and sometimes I'm

doing it like, you know, weird.

Sometimes I'm like in my
kitchen standing up doing it,

you know, like funny, funny shit
, and so it's got this raw

quality to it which I do.

Um, I feel like it's like
seeing the breaststrokes and the

fingerprints and you know, I
see that as part of the texture

of it and I'm totally.

And the bugs and shit, I'm
totally.

You know, I mean, we want it to
be good and to work, but some

amount of that I'm like, yeah,
this is what it is.

Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, like
you said, the brushstrokes, and

it adds a sense of like humanity
to it.

You know it's like Exactly to
it.

You know it's like exactly it's
so it's still like kind of like

what you've written and you
know and like talked about a lot

, it's like around.

You know this.

Uh, like you know blockchain as
a material like, which is

something that was really
interesting, that I hadn't heard

till it came out on the
material website, um, and I'm

sure 113 had talked about it for
sure.

Uh like, maybe blockchain is a
canvas, but material

specifically was very
interesting to me.

Um, so it kind of makes sense
Like you have.

Yeah, like, just the
imperfections of humanity are

imprinted everywhere, you know,
and if it's too perfect we don't

like it, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, or
it's.

It's.

If it's too perfect, it kind of
it might be like an iPhone or

something right, it's like I
want my iPhone to be perfect.

I don't want a bunch of dust
and scratches on it until I've

used it for a while.

But a painting uh, you know, is
something different.

Speaker 2: Yeah totally dude,
Totally Well, I'd be remiss like

if we haven't, if we don't dive
into like uh cycles.

Yeah absolutely so I.

It's just something that I've
been following for, yeah, for as

long as material has been in
existence.

I remember what you, when
Bernardo, interviewed you on

early, early, early.

Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, bernardo
Schiller Schiller was there

right at the right at the outset
right there, you guys were

actually the first space the
first kind of like thing we went

on.

Speaker 2: So you know, oh man,
appreciate it honored yeah,

that's really dope.

I actually didn't know that.

Uh yeah, bernardo's got a hell
of an eye.

Speaker 1: I'll just say that,
uh, when it comes to shout out

to fungi too.

You know, like he was really.

Speaker 2: He's been down since
day one, for sure, yeah, for

sure man, but yeah, so just like
, maybe, let's just like start

start there, and I think there's
a, there's probably a couple

questions that I think you know
I'd want to ask, or just things

to maybe kick this off that I
think would tell the story in a

really interesting way.

Yeah, and one of them is the
tweet you know, or part of a

tweet that you've talked about,
you know, zero, zero player

games, self-driving paintings on
chain, kinetic hyper sculptures

.

Yeah, um, I think it's probably
a good place to start, yeah

that's a great place to start.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's
kind of the you know, as we were

working on cycles, that was
something that I was kind of

starting to.

Those ideas were kind of things
that we were starting to leak

out into the world and and and I
like it as a little kind of and

it's kind of evolved a bit over
time to its kind of final form,

but that's like.

I like that as a little kind of
whatever it is seven word

description of of what cycles is
and it's a little bit playful.

You know the zero player games.

Part of it is kind of two-part
the, on one hand, you know, like

the previous big project that I
and seaweed did together before

we started working with neocry,
as material was was a game

project called night run or it
was like a yeah, art game hybrid

.

That was like a video game as
an artwork with an nft component

.

Um, and you know, game
development is something near

and dear to our hearts.

It's something that, like a
video game, is an artwork with

an NFT component and game
development is something near

and dear to our hearts.

It's something that we've spent
a lot of time on and it's

informed a lot of how we think
about all of this stuff.

And one of the key ingredients
in the cycles lens simulations

is something called Conway's
game of life.

So Conway's game of life for
some people it'll be familiar

for people who are kind of like
into these kind of cellular

automata and math and stuff.

But basically what it is is
it's a two dimensional grid that

you could do on a piece of
paper if you want, on a piece of

graph paper if you want to.

Usually it's like a digital
simulation nowadays, where you

have a set of rules where, if
spaces are filled or not filled,

it'll say if this space is
filled and the three spaces

around it are filled, you know,
the central space will become

unfilled.

So it's like a set of rules for
filling and unfilling spaces.

Uh, discovered by an English
mathematician called John Conway

in the 1970s.

Um, and the thing that's
amazing about it is that it

generates these long running and
unpredictable patterns Nobody

has been able to uh conway to.

You know, you can't predict
from a starting state whether

this is something that will run
for.

Um, I might.

It's.

It's not a solved problem,
let's put it that way.

It's like people can.

It's deterministic, so you can
experiment with it and build

things and do things with it.

But and people have like built
alarm clocks and crazy shit with

it.

It's like almost using it as
like a programming language.

There's a whole world of
cellular automata enthusiasts

out there on the internet.

So this is not something that
we are like, and even there's

other people in crypto have done
stuff with it, you know.

So this is not like something
we invented or whatever, but

it's something that I really
love and it's this kind of idea

of emergence, right, complexity
coming out of very simple rules,

and so that is a kind of a zero
player game, right, conway

called it game of life, right,
and it's this kind of set.

It was actually the very first
version of Cycles was actually

programmed by Seaweed, my
brother, who's not usually the

one doing the programming in our
team, my brother, who's not

usually the one doing the
programming in our team, uh, but

he was just kind of messing
around with it.

We were in the studio messing
around and he was messing around

with chat, gpt and and, uh, it
was just two teams, two colors

of conway, automata, uh, or
automata, depending on how you

pronounce it um, kind of
fighting over a grid and like

swarming around the grid, and
that actually I was.

That was the kind of like first
commit to and like swarming

around the grid, and that
actually was.

That was the kind of like first
commit to the cycles repository

13 months ago.

Um, that's amazing, yeah, which
is really cool and fun and and

so then, and you know, and then
also it's like I do, kind of a

lot of the way that we
approached cycles of these like

complex, layered, uh,
overlapping systems, really

comes from game development.

Right, we're in games where you
have all these different

systems interacting and that's
kind of where the richness and

the the beauty of it emerges, uh
.

So we're kind of doing a lot of
that, but the goal is to kind of

make an animated painting, uh,
instead of making like an

entertainment experience for
people to interact with, right,

and obviously I mean there's
like some light interactivity,

but it's basically
non-interactive, um, you know.

And then that brings us to like
the self-driving paintings idea

, which is obviously like a
little bit of a joke.

It's kind of like a funny
phrase, but you know, but the

the it was this idea of that
this is this autonomous art

object, right, and that it has
this life and movement and

development inside it, but that
it is a visual artwork.

It's designed to create a
visual experience for people and

it's a kind of a detail.

But I think it's worth pointing
out that part of the visual

appearance of Cycles, the way it
comes out of the system, is

that and it's funny because this
is so the Cycles lenses are

rendered in P5.js, the
JavaScript creative coding

framework, and it's a very
simple kind of P5.js trick, but

it's like something you kind of
learn when you first start

working with it.

It's just not clearing the
background.

The background never gets
erased, got it?

So it's just building up,
building up, building up,

layering, drawing over itself
again and again.

And when you do that with
moving things, kind of

everything like leaves these
trails and kind of leaves these

like smears and residue trails,
and kind of leaves these like

smears and residue, uh, which
for me was, is really, um,

analogous to a painter working
with paint.

Right, it's like you're, you're
not painting and erasing, you

can't really erase with paint,
right, like so you're layering,

working the paint, smearing it,
moving it, um and uh, and so

there's this kind of painting
illusion there, you know, and,

and as I was working on cycles,
I was looking at a lot of, uh, a

lot of abstract painting.

Um, you know one, I was in
Berlin, right, uh, this was in

the around Christmas time a year
, a year ago, basically, uh, and

I Berlin, and I was visiting
the Neue Nationalgalerie, where

they have a great exhibition of
Gerhard Richter paintings and

these squeegee paintings that he
would make these abstract

paintings extremely beautiful,
where he's using these huge

four-foot squeegees, scraping
paint horizontally across the

canvas and scraping off layers
and it just produces this

amazingly complex surface and
colors and blended colors and

just really, really beautiful
and uh, and I think that's

definitely something that kind
of like seeped into cycles, um,

yeah, that's very apparent.

Speaker 2: like that, that's
that's very apparent.

Like that, that's that's very
apparent.

Just wanted to like comment on
that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny
Cause I like love those and I.

But it was really only like
late later that I was like oh,

this, this is what I'm doing.

You know, like I definitely
like I was kind of like a

subliminal thing for a long time
and then I kind of realized I

was like oh yeah's it's.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a
wonderful part about being a

human being in it.

Speaker 1: Uh, yeah, totally,
you never know what's going on

in there in the old, in the old
brain, you know what I mean.

Like totally really funny yeah
totally man, uh.

Speaker 2: And then on-chain
kinetic hypersculpture like that

that's a, that's a, that's a
mouthful, uh, that's a big one.

Speaker 1: yeah, so the
hypersculpture I think I was

saying when I initially started
saying it, I was was saying

on-chain kinetic sculpture.

The hypersculpture language
actually is something that

Neocry articulated in his
article Hypersculptures that we

published on the material site,
and you know, Jacob from Zora

wrote this great piece called
Hyperstructures.

Yep, I remember reading that,
yeah, terrific, really

influential article and line of
thinking.

And he was talking about more
the kind of like Uniswap, Zora

protocol, level of protocols,
autonomous protocols that are

deployed, that are open,
permissionless to interact with,

credibly neutral, unstoppable,
and that have some kind of value

component.

Um, that was this very
counterintuitive kind of logic.

Right, it's like one of these
things about crypto where it's

like this works in a different
way than you know, your

literally anything that's yeah
really like your sass business

or whatever you want to, you
know, put up against it, right.

So, yeah, yeah, that was a
really fascinating um line of

thinking that definitely got my
gears turning, and and for

neocry as well.

And so his hyper sculptures
article and, and I think you

know, and then jacob couldn't,
we've said you know, he tweeted

out terraforms as a hyper
structure, you know, um, and so

terraforms then had this
on-chain sculpture concept and

terraforms actually is a you
could call terraforms a kinetic

sculpture because it does move
and and actually change its

shape.

Uh, but that movement feature
of it was was not the kind of

like central feature.

The central focus of it, um,
and that was something that when

we started working on cycles,
we kind of knew we wanted to to

hone in on was the fact that not
only could we make some kind of

a 3d sculpture directly on
ethereum, but because it's a

computer, it's a blockchain, we
could, or a programmable

blockchain, we could, we could
make something that would move

and change over time and and
potentially over a long period

of time, depending on how long
ethereum sticks around.

So that idea of you know, and
and we were looking at, you know

, kinetic sculpture in our
history by people like um calder

or um jean tingley.

Right, who's making this great?

Uh, I forget what he said.

It's like it's a machine
without purpose or something

which I was like oh wow, I like
this idea, you know, yeah, it's

like cool, he made these crazy
things of like machine belts.

It's kind of like fucked up
looking machines and putting

galleries like really the swiss
swiss artists 60s, 70s maybe,

but great, you know.

And so we were kind of like
studying, yeah, what else is out

there that you know is kind of
like related to this idea and

and and and that felt like the
idea of making something that

would run for a long time, that
would move and that would evolve

and change, really tied
together a lot of the core ideas

.

I mean, I think one of the core,
most central core kind of

concepts of cycles is just this
experience of change.

Right, it's like we all
experience change as as living

beings who live in time and and
the and that is a emotionally

charged experience, right.

It's like, if you think about
the passage of time, that kind

of has like emotional meaning
for everyone, you know, Um, and

so we wanted to kind of use this
fairly abstract sort of

technology and material to try
to connect to something that is

a like a real human experience
right, which is this experience

of like living through change
and time, especially in this

moment of the world right where
we're really kind of buffeted by

change, right, where change is
like a hurricane.

Now you know yeah yeah.

I mean especially in crypto.

Right, we kind of signed up for
it in crypto, but now it's like

the whole world is getting on
to this tempo right, where it's

like we have so many different
systems working and changing at

the same time and the feeling is
of this kind of like insane

volatility across so many
dimensions of our lives.

And so that felt very kind of
like topical as a thing to to

kind of connect to and relate to
.

Speaker 2: Um, I hadn't even
made that connection so far.

Yeah, that's, that's amazing
man.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean for me,
you know, and obviously I'm one

member of the team and everybody
on the team has their own, and

and this really was a all three
of us had real major creative

inputs into the project.

So so whatever I'm saying
should be taken as I mean I'm I

speak for the, for the team, but
, but also it's filtered through

my own.

Sure you know lens of it, but
the um, but yeah, that kind of

trying to do something that we
and and then on a more

formalistic level, the and this
isn't the part that I kind of

like would make the big headline
of the piece, but I I think

it's important as well.

Is that something that I think
we didn't think about during the

previous NFT cycle of what is
an NFT and what is a crypto?

Artwork?

Was NFTs?

Are software programs, right?

This is a running piece of
software on a live computer,

right?

And you know, in that way
there's a one lens that you can

look at the whole thing through,
which is that the artwork is

what it does, right, it's what
like.

There's this kind of phrase from
systems theory that the purpose

of a system is what it does,
right, and I think that the, in

that way we've ended up with.

You know, fundamentally, nfts
for me are not about pictures,

right, that's not what is unique
and, uh, important about them.

It's that it's this thing that
has this dynamism, and the

ability to collect and own and
trade is this very important

part of it.

But then there are these other
kind of like behaviors that you

know.

There's one lens, I think, that
we can look at it through,

which is like if we take the
kind of like art block style,

generative art, nft as a
artistic gesture in my mind,

then squiggles becomes really
the, the central artwork in that

genre.

Right, because it was the.

It articulated that as a
gesture and a whole system.

Now, once you get to the 999th
um collection that repeats that

behavior on art blocks, I do
think you're starting to water

down, at least looking at.

Of course they could be
beautiful and there could be

amazing visual craft being
displayed, you know.

But I think you're starting to,
you're starting to repeat

yourself, you know, totally.

And so that is a one point and
I'm not, I'm not trying to start

a fight with generative artists
here.

I'm.

I have tremendous love and
respect for that as a craft and

a discipline, right.

So I just want to say that,
right, but, but I but that is

somewhere where we would
position ourselves to the side

of generative art.

Obviously, generative techniques
and the language and the visual

language of generative art is
present in our work and I really

enjoy it.

I like looking at pretty
generative pictures, right.

So that is something that we
enjoy too and it's part of what

we do, but it's not the central
idea that we're exploring, right

.

We are not trying to explore
the idea of a hash that gets

generated at the mint
transaction time that then

generates a still image forever,
right.

It's like we're trying to do
something that continues that

conversation and goes further,
uh, which is why we kind of like

identify more with the like
protocol art or network art,

like type language well it's,
it's really interesting.

Speaker 2: this is a really fun
thread to pull on because I mean

, you know, you know there's in
this conversation and also in

some of you know, some of the
writing that I that I've read,

is this kind of like shift from
outputs to dynamic, uh, you know

, and like and like.

Instead of like an output, like
let's make something living and

breathing, and I think, like
kind of just unpacking my

thoughts, real time here with
you.

Is that like?

I think that was one of the
challenges, if I'm being honest,

for me to really, I guess, fall
in love with generative art is

like the single output, if I
like, just you know, for like

the single output if I like,
just you know, like.

There are a few that have
really grabbed me and that I

resonate with, but for the most
part, I think that's what took

me so long to like really
understand it.

It's like I just I just
couldn't and it wasn't personal,

it's not like it's a dig.

Speaker 1: It's just one.

Well, it's just what do you
resonate with right?

What Captures your imagination?

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it
just I didn't fully.

It felt like it was, there was
a piece missing.

So I think that it's I.

This is probably a part of
something, or this part of

something I've been thinking
about largely is like you know,

when visuals like what, like
what is considered beauty, when

beauty is democratized, you know
, I mean this is exactly the

period we're in now, right?

Speaker 1: This is a very
relevant question with the rise

of image, ai-based, image
generation, diffusion-based

image generation.

Like it's very we are in a
different.

It's very much like the advent
of the camera that triggered the

rise of abstraction.

And painting right, you're like
, well, painting representative,

representational paintings has
a very different meaning now

that the.

And painting right, you're like
, well, painting representative

representational paintings has a
very different meaning now that

the camera exists.

Right, and I think we're going
through a similar period of

transformation.

Speaker 2: Totally dude, yeah,
and it's kind of fun, but also

just nauseating to think about
at the same time, because it's

just Big time it's upending
everything we thought we've

known.

It's shredding.

Speaker 1: It's upending
everything we thought we've

known.

It's shredding.

It's shredding.

I mean, if you don't feel the
whiplash and the intensity of it

, you're not paying attention.

And this is where the image
generation is kind of the tip of

the spear.

But look at the progress in
robotics.

Look at the progress in
robotics.

You know we're going to have
generative physical

manufacturing, sculpture,
handbags, physical paintings.

Robot hands are getting super
dexterous and capable and you

combine that with, like you know
, I don't see a lot of people

paying attention to it.

I don't see a lot of people
paying attention to it.

But if you guys want to have
your minds slightly blown,

depending on your threshold for
this, look at the new release

from Google Gemini 2.

You go to aistudiogooglecom
I'll give them a little plug

here and you push the stream
live button.

You can talk in real time over
voice.

You can share your camera, you
can share your screen and the

model sees, talks back, can read
your text that you're showing

it.

You can.

I showed it a picture of my
toilet that I was trying to fix.

You know like it's this and now
it doesn't take a lot of

imagination to be like okay, now
we have a model like that.

It can talk, listen, look, and
we put that into something with

really good robotic hands that
never gets tired yeah, that's I

mean on one, that's like two
years, that's like two or one

year.

If you look like what unitree
and all these companies in china

are doing with robots the tesla
robots like yeah, this all

happening.

This is not like some science
fiction, future shit.

This is like I'm sure there's
like a lab in China right now

where they've like got a robot
walking around doing this.

Speaker 2: Well, it is, but it's
totally a reality.

You know, it's something that I
think as, when I grew up, like

one of the reasons that crypto
made so much sense to me, um,

was that it was really kind of
at the edge of things and

reinventing the world that I
didn't really, I don't know,

just a whole lot of the world,
just didn't excite me.

You know, up until this point.

And, uh, as a kid huge sci-fi
fan, I mean I would, I would.

There's very few movies that
like I really drill in on, but

just the, you know, star Wars, I
robot, you know like Minority

Report, like that shit like that
, like I, I ate that up as a kid

, you know, and say, but there
was, but there was always this

kind of depression, if you will
like, of like man will he ever

even get to an idea of something
like this world?

you know like where's the future
?

Well, where is the future?

Like here it is yeah, and so
yeah, exactly, you nailed it.

It's like we're coming into
this age where, like that is

becoming a reality.

I'm like.

This feels like the world that
I was built for, uh, and I I'm

so here for it.

Speaker 1: Um, so, same same and
honestly I do think.

I mean, I think there's plenty
to be nervous about and there's

going to be a lot of upheaval
and and painful change, but I'm

fundamentally optimistic about
this stuff.

I think that this will be, it
will lead like, for example, you

know, obviously, elon, super
polarizing figure.

I have my reservations about
him, especially politically, but

the uh like him supporting the
fucking AFd in germany I lived

in germany like these people are
literal, like extreme

right-wing germans, like do not
like them and, you know,

platforming them and shit.

So you know, I know obviously
I'm not going to get into

politics too deeply because it's
a divisive topic, but yeah,

some complicated shit going on
there.

But then it's undeniable,
unignorable, like what he's

doing with Neuralink.

Yeah right that's it's.

This is world-changing shit and
the way that that's going to

benefit people with paralysis,
people with vision disabilities,

you know like this is.

You know, literal life-changing
technology that, uh, is coming

into existence.

You know literal life changing
technology that is coming into

existence, you know, through
through this company and this

team, and and really will make
like a world of difference for

this group of people and
eventually it's going to become

something widely distributed and
then we're going to have to

reckon with some really wild
questions about the brain and

computers and stuff.

Speaker 2: You know, totally, I
I mean things are gonna get real

crazy it's a great point about
elon like it's like it's kind of

like one of those things can
you separate the art from the

artist?

Totally?

Yeah, kind of like one of those
kanye moments, michael jackson

moments, you know things like
that.

Yeah, uh, it's the same thing
with elon, like it's like what

he has contributed is it's
undeniable, it's undeniably good

, it's undeniably good, it's
undeniably net positive.

Speaker 1: Super powerful, super
transformative.

It's very confusing to me to
have a figure like that that is

so important and that I admire
for those qualities, and then

that he's got these politics
that are so far from my personal

politics.

So it's a very strange one, but
you know I also.

Speaker 2: I mean there's a
little side note, yeah, yeah,

I'm gonna interrupt you a little
bit.

Like I think that kind of that
was like the one thing I really

grabbed from cycles so far, like
as I consumed it, is that, like

you know, we are like there's,
it's, the world has gone so far

from black and white and this is
humans.

Humans are not one or the other
, uh, while social media and

flat surfaces, you know, can
portray that, yeah, um, it's

really not what we are like.

Humans are like a mix of good
and bad, you know, like we have,

we have there's, there's always
a few sides to us, that we're

multi-dimensional, and I think
that's really what I grabbed.

Like you know, I remember I
really, because one of the

things I really love, one of the
many things I love, how, like

what you do, is like your
ability to communicate this in a

really simple format, like
starting with the Terraforms

video and then starting, and
then with cycles.

It was like there was this
meditation on time space, you

know reality, and I really like
I really latched onto that idea

and it's like the thing I came
up with was like, oh, my God,

we're entering into a world
where, if you can't think

critically like that, where you
can't acknowledge that or

tolerate ambiguity, right,
totally.

Speaker 1: Both of these things
are true, like this is a guy

who's doing really amazing,
important work and doing things

I really disagree with and it's
happening at the same time yeah,

no, absolutely yeah, and doing
things I really disagree with,

and like totally, and it's
happening at the same time.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely
yeah, that's, that's the main

thing I grabbed, you know, and
it's like you can insert any you

know, whether it's influential
figure in history, like they're

usually really complicated
people, like it's they're and

it's they're far from perfect um
, absolutely, yeah, no, I I

really appreciate that and I
well, I'm sorry, go ahead, go

ahead yeah, yeah, yeah, man, and
no, it's.

I was really about to like
finish up because it's just yeah

, like that's if you.

It kind of made me think, like,
if you don't have that ability

to, whether it's I don't know
what you want to call it, call

it emotional intelligence, call
it, you know, like, larger IQ,

whatever, the whatever going to
be really challenging, and I

think that's probably one of the
things that you talked about

around this big upending or this
big shredding of what the world

is, what it could be.

That's going to be a really
hard thing for people to do.

However, I'm going to go on a
little bit of a selfish rant

here, please.

The world, for people like us,
the world never conformed to

what we wanted, you know.

So it's like, why would we, you
know like, why should?

Like?

I have empathy for people going
through change, but this almost

feels like okay, this it's just
kind of like a shift of like

who is really benefiting from
this or who is really enjoying

from it?

Um, and it's like I'm not going
to bend, you know, or like stop

what I'm doing or stop what I'm
thinking, or morph my beliefs

to conform to someone who's
really struggling to adapt to

this new world, if that makes
sense.

I don't know.

It can maybe sound kind of
harsh, but no one ever did that

for me.

Speaker 1: You know, no, I can
relate to that.

I mean, I think it's an
interesting framing.

It's an interesting framing
like the I don't know.

I mean my, my version of that
is I wanna that.

It's a very delicate line,
right, because we want to have

empathy, as you say, to people
who are suffering from, let's

say, having their jobs made
obsolete, right, that is, that

can really fuck people's lives
up and that's so painful, right.

At the same time, I don't think
we do anybody a favor by being

dishonest about where things are
going to go right, what is

actually really actually
happening, or like kind of has

already happened.

Right, and trying to pretend
that you know, and again, not to

go back into politics, but it's
like there are there's this

desire for the paternal figure
to stand up and say everything's

going to be okay.

You know, the industrial jobs
are going to come back to the

Midwest, the rust belt is going
to be made green again.

Know, the industrial jobs are
going to come back to the

Midwest, the Rust Belt is going
to be made green again.

Right, and it's like no, it's
fucking not, you know, and

you're not helping that person
that lives in that fallen

downtown there by telling them
that they're no, actually, you

know, american industry is going
to, is going to now start out

competing China.

It's just fucking not happening
.

Like the robots are gonna
replace all of that, you know.

So I do think that there is
this balance of empathy and

kindness with, but it's like the
, the, the bitter medicine of

the truth, you know, may be a
kinder thing than letting people

pull the covers over their head
and be like no, no, no, it's

going to be, don't worry about
it you know, yeah, I feel that,

and I mean, here's the thing,
though you know, I'm not sure.

I'm sure you probably had some
trials and tribulations in your

life and probably have had a few
moments where you know your

world has been shaken into a new
reality Um but like if you look

back on that, I you know it's
like anytime that's happened to

me, that's when I've gained the
most perspective and the most

growth and the most insight you
know, absolutely, absolutely you

know, and I think the thing
that I'll just add to that is

I've experienced that myself and
I'm lucky to be someone who

kind of you know can receive
very difficult, negative stress

and and kind of grow out of it
and become stronger.

But I've also seen the people
who are just crushed by it.

You know, and I and I wouldn't
call that like a moral failing

or anything like that Right.

It's like some people just, you
know it's too much and they

can't adapt and then, and they
really need help, you know what

I mean.

So, yeah, it's a, it's a very
you know it's a very complicated

thing.

But yeah, I definitely, and I
do think you know.

To kind of come back to our
audience, you know one of the

things I do think crypto being
in crypto, the insanity of

crypto, the volatility, the
fucking scamming, the psyops,

the narrative wars, all this
crazy shit, right, like the meta

changing every 15 minutes, I do
think is more like what reality

is going to look like in the
next 10 years than compare it to

trad fi of the past 10 years.

Right, it's like we, we are
living in this version of the

future and building up this
tolerance for volatility and

insanity.

I do think is like a really
good gym to train in for the

next 10 years.

And I've seen people talking
about this on the timeline.

They're like, hey, if you're a
trad five person and you want to

hire some young guy to manage
your fund, get somebody from

crypto.

They're not going to shit their
pants when it goes down 2%.

Like you know they're not.

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, you
know they're not.

And I'm like, yeah, yeah,
you're right.

Like they're like oh, 40 down
in 24 hours, all right, let's

see what happens, like you know,
yeah yeah all right, good

morning.

You know like, yeah, let's go.

You know, so it's like so I do
think that that's, and that is

something that I see as a real
um, you have to have a stomach

for the chaos and the wild west
of it all, and that is really

what I kind of tell people.

I'm like listen, what do you
think about the idea of living

in the wild west?

Is that exciting or is it
terrifying?

That's your, that's your little
litmus test of whether you're

going to like crypto or not.

Yeah, you know, I like being
out here with the fucking

criminals and the anarchists and
the crazy.

You know people.

You know the schizos and the
libertarians and everybody.

It's like I like it.

You know, it's like but some
people, that's like a nightmare,

you know, and I'm like yeah,
you probably won't like this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well,
people seek comfort, people seek

stability, people seek you know
, there's a lot of things people

seek, you know.

But I think also what you're
talking about and I just want to

add, like one more thing,
before we like, uh, bring it

fully back, is you know, like I
think you know they're that

talking about that blend of not
sugarcoating something but also

having this line of empathy,
like I think one thing that has

been lost?

Uh, and you know as much as I
love the internet, I think there

are some clear damages that
it's caused like absolutely

yeah's caused yeah, but it's
like one of the things is like

we've lost.

I think and this is just my take
we've lost a lot of capacity to

have like into like there's
like a I'll just give an example

to help this make sense.

Like you know, like back one
thing, one thing our parents

generation did really well was
like this concept of like a

neighbor.

You, you know people were
really neighborly and friendly

and would just like give you the
shirt off their back.

You know, like that that I feel
like that kind of individual

level, like personal empathy,
has gone away.

Um, it's become very like.

We live in so many apartments
now, like obviously, but even in

neighborhoods like people
aren't as friendly with each

other, you know, and people like
aren't as just like willing to

like help one another.

Uh, unless there's like a
natural disaster, you know, um,

which, and so I I think that's
like one thing that like I

really hope we get back is this
ability to be like okay, there's

some change.

That doesn't really it can't be
affected on a big level, like

on a social platform, but it
happens at the individual level.

It happens through conversation
, it happens through like

sitting down with someone, it
happens through like having a

friend to know how to help you
and when to help you.

Speaker 1: You know, um, I don't
know, man, it's just like

something I feel has gone,
gotten very lost no, I, I mean,

I definitely, I definitely hear
you and I think that the well, I

have two, two kind of responses
to that.

The first is that I think that
the having there is this, yeah,

this kind of there's.

There are multiple forces at
play here, right.

One of them is the kind of
modern capitalist reality, right

, the the emphasis on the
nuclear family, atomized living,

right like the move away from,
like multi-generational living

neighborhoods, all that kind of,
you know, suburbia, it's like a

whole, it's like urban planning
, capitalism, the image of the

family's, this whole, which a
lot of it is America-centric,

right Very much yeah.

You know, on the other side, the
more kind of like social media

internet version of that.

You know, one of the really key
and this kind of ties us back

to material and the whole
conversation, like this idea of

protocols.

You know, if we look at social,
we're all used to talking about

protocols as crypto protocols,
but if we look at instagram or

twitter as a kind of a protocol
uh, that kind of farms eyeballs

to sells, to advertisers and
where any kind of virality and

engagement is going to maximize
session time on the platform and

therefore ads viewed and
revenue the Matt Dryhurst who I

think has, you know, along with
Holly Herndon, has just been

doing absolutely incredible work
and and thinking, especially

this year, their piece, the call
was just phenomenal and and

over the past number of years, I
mean, I think, one of the best

voices in AI, many different on
many different levels, but you

know he was one of the people.

Dryhurst was one of the people
who articulated this idea that

that really had a big, big
impact on my thinking and it's

really kind of part of what
we're thinking about at Material

is the idea that in this era,
media is downstream from

protocols.

Right, that Instagram, the
photos are a kind of an output

of the system.

The photos are not the point of
the system, and what people?

The photos don't.

The content doesn't shape the
system.

The system shapes the content.

The photos don't.

The content doesn't shape the
system.

The system shapes the content.

So the decisions of Mark
Zuckerberg and the product team

at Instagram are what create the
photos that are posted on

Instagram and then the culture
that flows out of that culture

of images, right Selfies,
filters, beauty obsession, all

these kinds of things right.

Influencers, right, like,
there's a whole class of job and

industry that is now kind of
like arisen out of this like

protocol design of Instagram and
so among other social networks,

of course, sure, and so this
idea that media is downstream

from protocols I think is a very
is a good way to think about.

You know and like.

So Twitter, right, as a kind of
like, where anger and outrage

and hot takes become this kind
of currency, uh, this outrage

economy, right, which obviously
a lot of people have talked

about, but, but that's a product
of protocol design, right, and

and I do think that this
flattening of social discourse

is a product of the, the
protocols that we choose to to

engage with and specifically add
monetized, uh kind of virality

driven social platforms where
the users are the product, the

advertisers are the paying
customers.

Uh, my hope is that with crypto
, we can start to see and build

alternatives to some of few
years of work is like, what does

it mean to make protocols as
artwork and what does it mean to

think about these ideas in the
context of a fine artwork and

how can we kind of speak to this
condition, obviously through

the medium of art?

Speaker 2: That's, that's, yeah,
I mean the, the thing that came

up here, uh, yeah, and I love
how we've kind of just we've

we've looped back around, uh and
um, one of the things that I

thought about here is, you know,
going back to the concept of,

like, a hyper structure and a
hyper sculpture, um, yeah, and

the combining that with what you
just said around the idea or

the thought, I'm, what if art
was a?

What does it mean for art to be
a protocol, that things are

built on top of?

What does it mean?

Like you said, the media is
downstream from the protocol.

Well, if you guys are making
protocol art, what is downstream

from that?

So that is the thing that
really downstream from that.

So that is the thing that
really Like, okay, if there's a

world full of new protocols,
what is the immediate downstream

effect, or how do they?

I guess, even before the
downstream effect is how do they

interact with each other?

And it had me thinking this is
something I thought about before

like around cycles.

I know this is brand new and I'm
sure you guys have a lot of of

ideas planned and there's
probably a lot more to roll out

that we just don't know, know
about yet.

Um, but I'm curious, like the
communication between you know,

hyper structures are hyper
cultures.

Like.

What does that?

Like, what, like, like.

What does that bring out for
you when I say that?

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

Actually, I'm just, I'm going
to just pull up the.

I'm going to just pull up the.

I want to cause Neocree kind of
like wrote this really well in

his essay and I want to just
pull this up.

So, you know, he kind of puts
forward this um, I won't read

the whole thing, but he puts
forward this kind of concept of

levels of network awareness.

Um, it's like level one, media
stored off chain level media

stored on the blockchain.

Level three, blockchain
computed media.

And level four, hypersculpture.

Right and hypersculpture.

I'll just read the
hypersculpture section a smart

contract whose execution relies
on data from its network, such

as user interaction or the state
of a composed contract.

The media is reactive to
external inputs, meaning that

the final form of the artwork is
influenced not just by the

internal logic authored by the
artist, but also by changes in

the broader network, right.

So and this is you know, I'm
glad we come back to this

Something, and this is something
that Malta Rauch covered in his

introductory essay for the
World Computer Sculpture article

, by the way, amazing yeah,
amazing, yeah, he's a writer

malta.

I think you know I just cannot
recommend his writing enough, uh

, for people trying to
understand malta just has a

wonderful context of fine art
history and just a great writing

voice.

You know, he really understands
crypto on a deep level,

understands art history on a
deep level, understands art

history on a deep level.

I mean he's really one of like
a small handful of people who

really have that rich context on
both sides and his thinking and

writing.

So, yeah, cannot recommend him
enough.

And just a wonderful guy.

Yeah, the.

You know something that he wrote
in that piece which I want to

kind of emphasize, is like for
us, the point is what can we do

with this new medium?

Not to explore this medium for
its own reasons?

Right, that is a whole school
of art.

Right, this kind of formalist
school of saying and there are

it's not a black and white line
in the sand I'm trying to draw

here.

We're on some gradient, some
spectrum of this, right, and and

there are formalist type things
that that are in our work and

and I'm not saying that that's
bad or wrong, but but it's like,

fundamentally, this is about
how can we use this medium or

these media to do and say new
things right, not just, wow,

what could we, you know?

Oh, look, isn't that crazy.

We did this thing on a
blockchain that nobody's ever

seen before and, like we figured
out how to do some like

blockchain tricks.

You know what I mean.

It's like that's not the point,
right, and so it's like this

hyper sculpture concept.

The reason I bring this up is
the hyper sculpture concept

really articulates why would you
want to do like, you know, not

to kind of like pat ourselves on
the back, but like the way that

we did cycles.

You know, like one detail, right
.

So the, the, what we call the
posters, right, which are the,

the image that's displayed on
the marketplace, right, it's a

kind of a thumbnail image, right
?

The?

We had to build a whole new
contract that composed SVG

elements in order to have that
be generated from on-chain data

and to be usable on the
marketplace, and it was this

whole thing that came out of the
constraints that we were

working in.

But we didn't do that just to
show off no-transcript.

Some of our, our other artists,
friends about, you know, um, so

this is, you know, this is not
kind of like let's put

everything on chain for its own
sake or out of some like, which.

Look, I understand the kind of
value thesis no external

dependencies.

Speaker 2: My.

Speaker 1: JPEG is never going
to disappear.

That's I get that, that's a
that's a nice side benefit, but

that's not the point, right?

The point is this having this
data in this way, you know, like

I'll just talk a little tiny,
little bit of shit here for a

second Forgive me if you forgive
me if you feel attacked,

whoever's listening but like
there was a whole phase two

years ago, whatever where people
were and I don't think this is

like bad or whatever, but it's
just not the point like people

were uploading big ass chunks of
, let's say, svg data to store

it on the blockchain, right, um?

And it's like, okay, you're
putting all that stuff in

storage, but you can't.

You're using ethereum like a
hard drive.

Ethereum is a computer, right,
it's like you can't do anything

with that besides retrieve it
right it's like so okay, yeah,

that that fulfills the kind of
like my jpegs are not going to

get deleted function, uh, but
also, you, that's not guaranteed

because, uh, we see there's
like the purge you know is on

the ethereum roadmap they make.

You know the protocol might
change, stuff may disappear, so

um, it's.

But having media that's
dynamically computed on the

blockchain, uh, this very
different thing, right, and I

know it seems maybe it's like a
kind of a pedantic distinction

or like, for example and again,
I love Snowfro, I have

tremendous respect for him and
Artblocks, you know, and they've

undertaken this really big
effort to store all of the

Artblocks JavaScript, all the P5
sketches are now archived or

they're moving towards doing it.

I think maybe it's already done
.

Speaker 2: I think it is yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I hung out
with him and marfa and talked to

him about it and I think he's
got absolutely the best

motivations and I think we're
extremely lucky to have him in

the space 100, um as a, you know
, as an ambassador and our

leader, um, but the?

That's not what we're doing,
right?

Right, this is not a storage
media for archival purposes.

This is a live running program.

Right, it's like this is the
way that the cycles is

constructed.

Is that the, the visual, the,
the P five script that runs the

visuals is dynamically assembled
, uh, to create the artwork, and

that's why it can be dynamic
and changing and all these kind

of things.

Right, so it's like it's a.

I don't know how important it
is to make this distinction, but

I do want people to understand
that the difference between what

, what this is, versus some of
the you know what's come before,

which I think is all like good
and valid, but it's like, but

we're trying to do something
different and I, you know, I

just want people to understand
that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, but
honestly, at the end of the day,

it feels like a logical next
step.

I mean, if you like, it feels
like you know, like moving, like

maybe like the best idea at the
time was to 100% To use

Ethereum as a hard drive, right,
I mean, that's how I thought

about it for the longest time.

Speaker 1: Yeah Well, that was
mainly what was going on, right?

So it was a logical idea, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and now
it makes sense of like, okay,

well, what's the next step from
doing that?

And if you really, uh, if you
understand or at least vibe with

a little bit of ethereum being
a world computer, it makes a lot

more sense.

Um, yeah, because, but I'll be
honest, it took me a long time

to really like conceptualize
that or to really I mean you and

me and everybody else.

Speaker 1: Right, this is a,
this is a and it's kind of the

beautiful thing about this,
right, it's uh, these are ideas

that are emerging from this
scene.

Right, this is not one person
uh, although there we obviously

have leaders, people like 113,
who are really championing some

of these ideas, but these are
ideas.

You know, things like ethfs.

You know that frolic played a
really key role in, I mean, that

is a.

You know cycles, uses.

Ethfs, like that, is a piece of
infrastructure.

Um, that is really, you know,
like there's a whole group of

people moving both the ideas and
then the technical um

infrastructure forward together.

Speaker 2: Uh, that are like
making this a reality yeah, I

mean the again, the through line
through all of this, for me at

least, or one of the through
lines is like art as a uh, like

art as like a foundation or like
I I had the word but like art

as the infrastructure is really
what I'm saying and that's.

That's a wild thing to really
unpack, um, and I think, yeah, I

mean I, if I, if I look at you
know terraforms obviously was my

first exposure to that, but
like the whole thing that you

guys are doing, it feels like a
continuation of that Definitely.

Speaker 1: And I'm proud to say
that.

I mean, I think you know, I
will wear the Terraforms badge

on our arm, proudly represent
for Terraforms 113.

You know, like Neocree and I
literally met because of the

intro to computing arts class at
113, taught in the Math Castles

, discord, you know what I mean.

So we're absolutely part of
that lineage, part of that

school and proud to be so.

Speaker 2: And you made
literally the only

comprehensible video on
Terraform.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

And it's so funny, man, that
that video I get so many people

be like oh, you're the guy from
the terraforms video.

I'm like, I'm an artist, I've
made a bunch of artworks and

they're like, yeah, yeah, but we
know you from that video.

I'm like man, all right, dude
it's.

Speaker 2: It's kind of like you
know, uh like, artists are only

known for, like their, their
biggest sale, or something I

know exactly exactly no, I, I
did not expect that video to do

what it did.

Speaker 1: You know it really
was.

It's funny, but it's great and
I'm and I'm really proud to have

done it and I'm proud to have
played a a role in spreading

this, this thinking.

And, yeah, you know, and one,
one, three, you know I don't

think he would like object to
this characterization.

It's funny.

He says, like he describes it as
me like linearizing his, uh,

his kind of like cloud of words
that he puts out you know what I

mean Like he has this amazing
poetic inspiring kind of

abstract way of speaking and
thinking and teaching which

obviously resonates with a lot
of people, um, but I'm happy to

be able to kind of be like yes,
and here it is in like a five

minute format that you can kind
of digest, you know yeah, and

I'll tell you we need.

Speaker 2: That's why I say it
like.

It's probably why it resonated,
because I think people very

similar to me.

When I first found crypto I I
remember there was a.

There was a space I was on it
was actually a clubhouse space

when Beeple made his first sale
and they had the two not his

first sale, but he made that
historic sale.

Big sale yeah, and they had the
two buyers on a clubhouse chat

oh wow.

And I was there for that.

That's great.

Yeah, it was my first intro and
I remember talking to a friend

because I had no, I was not in
crypto, crypto, nothing.

Speaker 1: That's true NFT
history.

That's really like.

That's like the big bang for
NFTs.

Speaker 2: I have the local
recording of that space on my

computer.

Oh man.

Speaker 1: Yeah, legendary
artifact.

Speaker 2: Dude it is.

And I remember talking to a
friend.

I'm like I don't know what, how
to articulate what I'm feeling,

but I'm feeling it, you know,
and that's that was my.

I say that to give the context
of like that was me.

With one on three, the entire
bear market, I'm like there's

this feeling and I can't quite
put it into succinct words of

like what it is I'm hearing, but
it's it's kind of like that

Will Ferrell meme, like it's
provocative and it gets the

people going totally no, and I
think and actually it's funny

and I hope this, you know, isn't
like me doing him a disservice

or whatever, but I think that's
something that, um, it really

what's the right way to say this
.

Speaker 1: A lot of the time
what he's saying does make

linear sense.

If you understand his universe
of references and language and

the way that he talks, you can
really learn to understand it.

And a lot of the time he's
making kind of straightforward

points In a really elaborative
way.

In a really beautiful way.

I mean, he's got this amazing
way with language, these kind of

yeah, poetic is kind of like
the best way I can describe it.

And I think that it's funny
because I've been like on spaces

with him and some of the other
folks from the Mathcastles team,

or from the Mathcastles scene,
not team, castle's team and or

from the mass castle scene um,
not team, uh, and I see people

trying to kind of grab it and
pin it down in real time, you

know, and be like so it means
this.

And he's like, no, you know,
and it's like so it's.

You know what I mean.

Like it's.

I really think that there, in
some ways, it's like you kind of

have to appreciate it in its
poetic form.

And then, yeah, there are some
people like me that kind of take

it and make like a more
pedestrian, linear

interpretation, but that kind of
um, you know it's funny, he

would probably hate this, but
it's like reading continental

philosophy.

You know it's like, it's like
this verbal fireworks.

You know what I mean and you
get this feeling from it, and

it's like it's like this verbal
fireworks, you know what I mean

and you get this feeling from it
.

Yeah, and it's inspiring and
it's exciting, you know, uh, but

you don't always fully
understand it, you know, and uh,

yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't want
and there's, and there's none of

his faces that are recording,
so you can't go back and listen

to it you know?

Speaker 1: no, exactly, you had
to be there, which I love, you

know.

It's funny like it's the beauty
of it.

Speaker 2: Again, similar to
that recording, it was before

Clubhouse had recording, so it
was like you just had to be

there and it's a vibe.

Speaker 1: Right, that's a super
vibe.

It's also as the person talking
.

That's such a different.

If you know, it's ephemeral and
on those spaces there's always

like weird people that come up
and say weird, you know what I

mean.

Like it's like chaotic and goes
off on weird tangents and it's

super fun.

I kind of love it.

I love that like culture of
especially the small spaces.

Obviously you have your like
big kind of like more commercial

spaces, right, like the culture
of the small, chaotic spaces in

in crypto and in NFTs.

I really love.

It's so fun getting on at night
with my friends and and then

you just talk about weird shit
and you know it's, it's so

enjoyable.

Speaker 2: It's like the
internet version of like finding

, like a hole in the wall, bar,
you know where.

Speaker 1: You find, like you
know, a group of people that

you're like wow, man, I would
have never like chosen to hang

out with you, like maybe on the
street but, like, this is really

cool that we have this in
common and you get to listen,

you know, and I, and I love the
fact that it's public, you know,

like that, anybody can, you
know, come up and you don't have

to be cool or famous, or you
know what I mean.

You don't have to get invited
to the party, you can just show

up, listen, raise your hand, you
know, um, that's really

democratic and cool, you know,
and it's uh, it's a, it's a very

cool aspect of our, of our
space, and that's something I

hope that we, you know, we
continue with.

Speaker 2: Totally, man, I got
to ask one before I know.

Um, I know, I know you probably
, I know you have somewhere to

take your son.

So I want to be mindful of of
your time here.

Uh and so on, the on the beat of
time.

One thing it's more specific to
cycles that I really wanted to

ask about and then we'll
probably wrap it up is when I'm

looking through the lenses on
the website which, by the way,

incredible, thank you.

It's fun, it's just fun and
it's addicting and it's yeah,

that's the best, yeah, it's just
really engaging.

Speaker 1: Yeah,
cyclesmaterialwork everybody.

That one Click the random
button, the little dice looking

button, just oh see, I haven't.

Speaker 2: I haven't gotten
there yet, but yeah, yeah one

thing around that I found really
interesting was the concept of

time.

Like you can move like days
backwards and forwards on that.

What, what does like what is
that?

Like what?

Yeah, like what, like, I guess
that's.

Yeah, I was just I'm like what
is this saying?

What time scale are we on?

Is this related to the time?

It's like 1.39 pm today.

What is time on this website?

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so the?

I mean it's funny because the
time controls evolved straight

out of the development and kind
of like debugging and testing

process.

Right, because the.

So the way that cycles works is
each of the 512 lenses is a a

point in the kinetic sculpture,
and the kinetic sculpture is

composed of these eight rings
that are rotating on Ethereum.

Right, they're turning and
changing and as they turn and

change, each of the positions of
the lenses changes and the

lenses react to that change in
space, right, so they will look

different and behave different
as they move to new places in

their in their path, in their
cycle.

And so what I needed to do while
I was developing was to look at

how is this going to look on
day one, how is it going to look

on day 10, how is it going to
look 100 years in the future,

right?

And so I added these buttons to
be like go forward by a day at

a time, go forward by a week,
and actually we don't have this

on the website, but in my dev
tools I had random point in the

future, anytime in the next 100
years, which is really fun, so

we might put that in actually,
but the no, no, promises, I'm

not don't want to commit us to
features that have not been

agreed on, but the but the.

So what that's letting you do
and I'll a little bit of a fun

Easter egg that not everybody
knows about is that in the

sculpture view, if you push T,
you can pull up a trail renderer

so that as you advance in time,
it will draw a little green

line and show you the path that
your lens that you're following

has moved on through space, and
so you can kind of see where

it's been and where it's going.

And the goal of this is really
to help people to understand the

relationship between the
spatial movement of the

sculpture and the lenses.

And what does that look like?

What does that manifest in the
lens simulation itself?

How does the animation change
as you do that?

As you do that, and you know the
it's funny because there was a

like a decision point during the
production where I was like you

know well, I like this.

This is useful for me as a dev
tool, but do we want to force

people to come back tomorrow and
see what's happened, or it

should it be that the only way
to see your lens is to like come

back and refresh it?

And I'm like, on one hand, I
kind of like that that there's

like this, you know limitation
and and you have to come back

and see what it looks like
tomorrow.

But I'm like, is it, you know,
feasible that people are going

to be doing that every day?

And I know people are busy and
everything, so I'm okay, maybe

we're going to give people the
chance to kind of explore

forward and backward on their
own and it's been really not.

And also I think it furthers
understanding.

Right, it helps people to see
what the system is doing.

That, you know, and I see some
people in our holders group chat

being like Whoa, I went two
weeks into the future, like it

looks really different, like, oh
, you know, and to me that now

is I can see that understanding
starting to grow and sink in and

for people to really start to
realize, oh, this is not, oh,

this is not an animation, this
is this living thing.

You know what I mean.

This is not something where
somebody a friend of mine asked

me today how long is the loop?

I'm like there is no loop.

Speaker 2: There is no loop.

I love you.

Speaker 1: Yeah, there is no
loop.

I love you.

Oh, actually, I'm going to
tweet that that's good Stealing

it.

There is no loop, love you.

Exactly like it's.

It's uh.

Shout out to the ladies yeah,
uh, it is.

Uh.

It's a real-time system.

It'll.

You can take any point in time
and watch it for as long as you

want.

I mean, there are features that
will repeat.

You know things will reappear,
but the whole system is uh,

there's no loop.

Speaker 2: I love you, yeah
that's great yeah, that that

seems like a wonderful place to
to start wrapping things up here

, man uh, because I mean I feel
like we could go for for hours.

Uh, this has been incredible.

Man uh, matt, I just thank you,
yeah, yeah, this is fun, uh, as

well, from one yapper to
another.

Speaker 1: Uh, yes, indeed
awesome man, I want to keep.

Yeah, yeah, this is fun.

Uh as well, from one yapper to
another uh, yes, indeed.

Speaker 2: Awesome man.

I want to.

I want to wrap this up.

It's one of my favorite
questions, uh and Uh, kind of

tailoring it to maybe maybe we
just broaden the scope uh, a lot

.

What is, uh, what is one of the
kindest things someone's ever

done for you?

Speaker 1: Oh wow, big question.

Yeah, what is one of the
kindest things someone has ever

done for me?

I got to really think about
that one.

Well, I'll just I'll come back
to uh since we're talking about

cycles and we've been talking a
lot about 113, I think his

mentorship, or however you want
to call it, his friendship and

his willingness to spend time
looking at the piece with me,

for I mean literally for months
doing like multiple physical

studio visits.

And it's funny because at the
time I mean I knew he was being

kind, but at the time it was
just like he was, just like you

know, like basically like you've
got to be better, you know,

like you can do better, like
this is good, this is really

good, but you can do better,
like go further, go harder.

You know, yeah, and that was
like at the time I'm like, oh,

fucking god, just say it's good.

I just want to put it out.

You know what I mean like, but
really fucking pushing me and

challenging me, um, to try to
make it as good as I possibly

could and as we could.

Um, you know, and really you
know, just spending a lot of

time and energy, and you know
it's it's rare that your friends

will do that for you.

You know what I mean Like to be
like, yeah, this is good, but

you go, I know you're capable of
going harder, go harder.

You know, like, yeah, that's
that's not something that

everybody will say to you.

You know so many people be like
wow, this is great man, good

job.

You know, like, whether they
think that or not.

You know what I mean.

So that kind of like kindness
to be tough and critical, um,

and to challenge and say, no, go
harder.

You know um is something I'm
deeply grateful for and I really

think it's like a huge part of
the reason that we got to the

point that we got to with cycles
and and obviously one with

three, like you know, is just a
tremendous influence as a

thinker and as an artist and
with terraforms and everything

else.

So, um, it really meant a lot
coming from him and and so you

know I'm just super appreciative
and grateful.

Speaker 2: And so you know I'm
just super appreciative and

grateful and you know just can't
say that too many times I love

that dude, yeah, and I mean I
that makes a lot of sense,

knowing what I know from him.

Um, there's just like
relentless pursuit of this

fucking hardcore.

Yeah, like there is just like
this relentlessness about oh

it's exhausting.

Speaker 1: It's exhausting, but
it it's.

You know, it's what it takes.

Speaker 2: You need those
friends to kind of push you from

easy mode to hard mode you know
Exactly, yeah.

And because people love and
appreciate and people will

appreciate easy mode but people
will be obsessed with hard mode,

like that 100%.

Yeah, so I think that really
shines through and that's

awesome to hear, man.

Thank you for sharing that.

My that's awesome to hear, man.

Thank you for sharing that my
pleasure.

Yeah, man.

Well, I always got to do at the
end.

Want to give you a chance to
plug.

Yeah, absolutely.

Where can people follow along?

What's the easiest way for
people to get started if they're

just hearing about you material
work cycles?

Where's the best place to jump
off?

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Yeah, I would say the real, the
central place is, you know, the

material website, which is
materialwork, the material

Twitter, which is at material
underscore work.

We've got a video there, a five
minute video that explains

cycles and shows some of the
visuals, and that's kind of like

where we're giving all the
real-time updates on everything

that's going on.

I'm on Twitter, as at Matto
double underscore Matto.

You can follow me there and
yeah, that's you know.

And then I'm just, I'm around,
I'm in the Mathcastle's Discord,

I'm in a lot of other places,
so if you want to find me, come

chat with me.

I always love to talk about art
and everything else.

So, yeah, reach out.

Speaker 2: Amazing man.

Yeah, no perfect spot man.

Well, Matto again, thank you so
much for your time today and

your energy and your thoughts.

This is a fun conversation.

Thanks so much, buna.

Yeah, this was terrific.

Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Buna.

Yeah, this was terrific.

I'm really glad to be here.

I'm honored to be at the end of
the season for you guys and

congrats on finishing the season
and can't wait to hear what you

guys do next.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much,
man.

I really appreciate it, you.