Speaker 1: I believe that,
especially now, with AI that can

essentially replicate us
infinitely, to the degree that

people don't recognize what's us
and not.

I think that cryptographic
proof of who did what and who is

human and who is who are going
to become a huge, huge thing,

and we are going to the same way
.

We accept cookies.

We're going to be like you know
use your touch ID to confirm

that this is you, this is
actually Ben, and the best

technology for that is
blockchain.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Curated, a
series of conversations with

the people shaping culture and
technology of the new internet.

This is a podcast series
produced by Schiller, the most

trusted marketing media and
consulting firm in crypto.

Before we jump in with today's
guest, we want to make it clear

that this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be considered
investment advice.

We're hyped to share that
Season 3 of the Curated Pot is

now powered by Towns.

Towns is a permissionless group
chat and protocol application

built on base that allows anyone
to create and own digital town

squares on their own terms,
available on web and iOS, with

full end-to-end encryption.

Join or create feature-rich
towns with native on-chain

gating paid memberships and earn
Towns points as you do so.

We'll also be doing a little
collab with our friends at the.

We Do A Little pod in a joint
town, so make sure to tap in and

get access to our
town-exclusive giveaways,

rewards and more.

Check the description for more
info and head to townscom to get

started today.

In today's episode, I'm joined
by Ben Rubin, who is the CEO and

founder of Towns.

Ben is a serial entrepreneur
with a background in

architecture who spent his life
building digital spaces like

MeekRat, houseparty and now
Towns, a permissionless group

chat app and protocol that
allows us to own our own town

and facilitate meaningful
conversations with full

end-to-end encryption, giving us
more control over our social

graph.

I couldn't be more excited to
have him on the show today.

Gm Ben, how are you.

Speaker 1: Good morning, I'm
great.

I'm great.

The sun is out here in New York
, even though it's a bit chilly,

but I like it when it's chilly
and the sun is out.

Speaker 2: Okay, I was going to
ask, like I'm from Texas, so the

sun is out.

The sun is out, yeah, how long
have you been in New York for?

Speaker 1: Just genuinely
curious, coming up five years

now.

Holy shit, what made you want
to move there, always, always

wanted to move.

I lived in San Francisco for
eight years and I always wanted

to move and at the time I was
married and, um, uh, you know, I

my ex always always also wanted
to move, but I was tied with my

previous company in San
Francisco.

So it wasn't until, uh, we sold
my previous company that it was

possible to move, because we
were kind of headquartered, you

know, and pre-pandemic, you got
like 80, 100 people in the

office.

You know.

Speaker 2: I can't really all
right, guys, see you, I'm in new

york, yeah, yeah yeah, it's
kind of crazy how, uh,

pre-pandemic, how things used to
be, it feels like another world

, you know, like it's it.

I remember I was working a desk
job.

Uh, I was working, you know,
and that was going to be the

foreseeable future for me, you
know, and uh, then covid just

came in and threw a wrench and
everything, and I, I just

couldn't imagine going back to
the way things were, you know,

it feels like a, it feels like a
prehistoric time, uh, for what

it was.

Speaker 1: I actually think
we're getting into like a happy

middle where people are fine,
like there is a better

understanding of the value of an
in-person, yeah, and a better

understanding of where it's not
really valuable to be in person,

and people have more like
language and opinion around it,

which creates, I guess, uh to
our world, an efficient market

of time spent in person, time
spent online.

So I think I think, in the, in
that sense, I I think we're

getting into like a good people
are finding like okay, these are

the things I like to come to
the office for.

These are not, and like a lot
of people that I know, that I

speak to personally, I I hear a
lot of people like you know, two

days in the office, I love
coming two days in the office,

yes, you know, yep, we have the
same things in towns where, like

one day, uh a week at least, we
all come, uh, at least the

people in new york come to like
a satellite office, um, yeah,

yeah, I mean real quick, I'm
just make sure my laptop was

plugged in.

Speaker 2: Um, yeah, like that,
I I think that was the crazy

part, because there was, you
know, even before like you make

a really good point even before
covid there was, you know, at

least the the role I was in, the
job that I was in, I just kept

pitching the idea of, like, we
don't need to be here every

single day, I don't mind coming
in.

The people I worked with were
incredible.

The team was rock solid, it was
a bunch of superstars and it

was like I enjoy that in-person
aspect, but this doesn't need to

be.

Five days a week, this doesn't
need to be.

And to week, this doesn't need
to be.

You know, and I and to your
point, though, I think we went

through a phase where I feel
like life slingshots, you know,

like really far in one direction
and then really far in another

direction, and then somewhere in
the middle is where we find the

actual solution, kind of, like
you said, just like an efficient

market, uh, getting rid of
things that like getting rid of

jobs or not jobs, but like
getting rid of things that like

getting rid of jobs or not jobs,
but like getting rid of things

that, like, don't need to be
there.

Uh, you know so, um, I think
you're exactly spot on with that

.

Um, we work.

You know we're all distributed
at Schiller, so it's kind of

hard for us to to work in a, in
a, in a physical environment,

but we do.

That's why we rent out places
in Miami and New York, uh,

during events, so we can all
come and see each other, cause

there we don't ever get to see
each other Kind of sucks.

You know, like, I love these
guys, um, but, but, yeah, man,

uh, appreciate the riff, uh, I
enjoy.

It's always weird thinking about
that time.

It kind of feels like a time
warp, uh, that we went through,

um and so bringing us here today
.

I know it's when you founded
one of your companies.

I believe it was, you know, I
probably I'm probably going to

get the name wrong, but Watch
Party, is that House Party?

You mean House Party?

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah, okay, I knew it was Party
.

So I guess, like I always like
to start a little bit from the

beginning, you know what birthed
that?

Because there seems to be this
draw towards the sense of online

community and there's a couple
of philosophical things I want

to ask you later, but I think
this is probably a good place to

start.

Speaker 1: But yeah, well, to me
, I like the medium of just like

thinking about the online space
as an opportunity to create

interactions that you couldn't
have before and, I think, a lot

of creative ways to unpattern
ourselves from how we're used to

meet one another and what gives
us comfort in that and

confidence in how we meet one
another.

One of the ways to trick
ourselves to feel comfortable in

a situation which we wouldn't
otherwise feel comfortable is

those augmentations that you can
do on a digital space, and

there is a certain certain like
all the successful platforms are

dealing with some unique
insight into plausible

deniability, meaning and and in
the sense of I can do something

I don't feel comfortable doing
in person, but this is an act on

my behalf that, in the way it's
instrumented in this product, I

don't mind so much.

You know to do um, and that
creates some sort of a plausible

deniability or like a sense of
like oh, I didn't.

Like.

I remember when facebook had
like poke, you know you never go

.

Like there's very specific,
there's very specific people go

and poke people that they don't
know in person, right, but there

was something about the
manifestation of that idea but

on a digital surface that
created plausible deniability to

bunch of people not in, not in
a weird, not in creepy way, just

like it made it like, oh, like
everybody can poke, like it's

not a weird thing, like yeah, uh
, and then people started poking

and then that all of a sudden,
in a place that you can poke

people and it's not weird you
know snapchat, it will be very

weird if you can send somebody a
message and then delete it with

the context of the use case for
Snapchat.

But because they made it the
default, didn't feel comfortable

to do before In a way that
makes them feel secure.

You know a very long preamble
to answering your question,

which is what was the sense for?

What was the draw for
Houseparty, which I'm sad you

didn't know because it was 150
million users, most of them

North America.

But the thing that draw the
most there was like how can you

create an environment which,
when people feel safe to have a

FaceTime call with one or two of
their friends without the

emotional burden of actually
FaceTiming, like how many people

can you actually like call and
FaceTime?

And we were like 10 years into
FaceTime or like I don't know

nothing, sorry.

Like actually it's not 10 years
, it's maybe three or four.

Where on group FaceTime, I mean
FaceTime for 10 years, but it's

the group FaceTime, I think,
like 304 and like 10 years into

FaceTime in general.

And still there is, for most
people, there's handful of

people that they feel
comfortable calling out in blue

right.

But what Houseparty did?

It made it very easy for you,
not because it was actually

frictionless which it was but
mostly emotionally it didn't

feel weird for you to get into
like a FaceTime call.

You know, and that was the big
unlock, because a lot of people

did want to talk to their
friends on a live call, but like

the idea that they will call
someone and they will say like

oh, ben is FaceTiming you.

Like Ben, I'm just.

You know, I had one fun
conversation with him in

chemistry class like why the
fuck is he FaceTiming me, you

know.

But on HouseQuad it made it
cool because it it had this like

passive uh affordance where
it's like oh, ben is not calling

you, he's in the house, you
know he's in the house.

You choose to join or not, you
know anyway.

Speaker 2: So that's yeah, no, I
mean, I really like no, because

with me to to touch on the
reason why, you know, one of the

reasons why I guess it wasn't
as top of mind for me is like

there's certain things that I'm
really quick to adapt to and

then there's other things that
I'm really slow to adapt to.

I still very rarely FaceTime
people, you know, and so that's

one.

It's one of those things that
may have gotten lost on me, and

it was also a very interesting
point in my life where I was

kind of just not wanting to talk
to anybody, like just to just

to be like fully transparent.

It was a pretty, yeah, pretty
tough, pretty tough part of my

life and I was like, uh,
clubhouse was like the only

thing that I that I really
latched onto because it was it,

just it was I didn't have to
present, it just made sense, uh,

and I was able to learn, you
know.

So, uh, but I, but something
that you, really, something that

you touched on, is this, this
like idea of like feeling safe

and this idea of like connecting
with people.

Um, you know, one thing that I
think, one thing that, like, I

want double, double click on
here, and maybe this is too much

of a jump, but I feel I'm kind
of feeling it is, you know

there's on the speed of like
having connection online.

There is one thing I learned
during covid is that there's

this clear disconnect between,
uh, you know, online

interactions and in-person
interactions, and part of that

is like you know, online
interactions and in-person

interactions, and part of that
is like, you know, like when I

give someone a hug like that,
just it's hard to.

It's hard to emulate that
online, right, like it's hard to

, you know as much as I love
thing.

Yeah it's, it is a good thing,
Um, do you think that there will

be a period in time where the
digital experience will be able

to match the physical experience
of being in person around

somebody?

I haven't found it yet, but I'm
like, as someone who is a

builder of online community
tools and just you've been doing

this for a long time.

Speaker 1: You mean it's, but
you mean in terms of like there

is a hardware that is receiving
digital signal and emulating you

like a robot, or or the feeling
is completely digital, like I'm

looking at a screen yeah, like
what?

Speaker 2: or I mean just
through, whether it's through,

like through, obviously, some
sort of hardware device.

But do you ever think that
we'll get to the spot where,

like, we can emulate physical
interactions in a digital space

and have it feel on the same
level?

Or do you think that they'll
always be, but where do you

experience?

Speaker 1: it?

Do you experience it physically
via a robot or do you?

You experience it digitally?

Digitally, no, no, yeah I I
mean if it, if you experience

physically, meaning it's somehow
connected to your brain, which

means that you, it does get into
the same receptors of touch,

yes, and or if you tell me, hey,
you know, do you think there's

going to be a robot that is
going to be as warm, as soft to

touch as will behave just as a
person, imitate digitally like a

human image, now that seem real
, then it will eventually be

able to do that physically with,
you know, hardware, so I think.

But I don't think we'll be able
to feel a direct feeling that

we feel from surfaces and a hug
and a kiss or, you know human

touch to look at something
digitally.

But I do think there's going to
be a great, there's going to be

a pretty, you know, convincing
replication of us that are

physical, but they're going to
be operated digitally and not

through organs.

Yeah, or maybe through organs.

I don't know where we're going
to go.

I don't know.

Speaker 2: Thanks for yeah, I
mean, that makes sense.

And thanks for I know this is
only 10 minutes into our

conversation here.

I kind of threw that at you
because it's just something that

, for someone who thinks about
this a lot, you know, and as

oftentimes I think maybe I'm
just projecting, but I feel a

lot of people feel, especially
in the crypto space, there's

this.

There's this kind of disconnect
or there's this tension between

how much time should I be
spending online, how much time

should I be spending in person?

We're obviously going more
digital as a society like that,

that much is true, um, but it's
a con.

There's a, at least for me.

There's a constant push and
pull around, going out and

experiencing things physically
versus doing things digitally

with my friends, you know, um,
so it's, it's something that I

don't think I'll ever.

Well, maybe we just haven't
found the answer yet.

Uh, it'll probably be an
evolving, evolving topic.

Well, maybe we just haven't
found the answer yet.

It'll probably be an evolving
topic.

But yeah, that's just something
I wanted to throw at you, man,

but I appreciate that, yeah, for
sure.

Yeah, one thing that really
stuck out to me on the Boys Club

podcast that I listened to was
this idea around, yeah, just

around, like filling a digit,
like filling a void, you know,

as as humans.

Um, that was one thing that I
was like, wow, like this is,

yeah, like he kind of went there
.

I love it Cause, like they,
they have the feelings check-in.

Uh, a little bit about me.

I've been sober for 11 years,
you know.

So it's, there's a that really
stuck Good on you.

Thanks, man.

Yeah, it really stuck out to me
.

So, uh, I'm kind of curious on
in your, in your journey and

through your life, because when
I hear someone talk like that,

I'm like, okay, they've, they've
walked through something you

know like they've, like they're,
they've constantly walked

through things by the way but
you know what I mean, like

usually, yeah yeah, yeah, of
course, uh, so so what is the

question?

yeah, no, so it was.

There was that.

Have you kind of always had
this foresight or understanding

around, uh, just around the void
or like?

Speaker 1: was there kind of
like a moment because I didn't,

for example, I didn't say the
void, you mean even that hole in

the heart.

Yeah, we all have.

Yeah, yeah, I when was it?

When I was a kid, I used to in,
in in in school.

I used to raise my hand and ask
to go to the bathroom and I

would just wonder, because I
grew up in israel, so it wasn't

that like, I don't know, like it
, it wasn't.

You didn't need like a hall
press, that's how you call it.

You didn't need that, you know,
and I would just like go on

like one there and I think it
was like a memory I have because

I was.

I would do it all the time and I
was a great student, by the way

.

I would just like get bored or
get the point of the class.

I'm just like, man, I really
need to do something better with

my time and and I'm, I'm like,
you know, third grader and I was

just like, yeah, and, and I
think people didn't really

notice it because you know, get
great good grades and you know,

and I would just like wander
around and look at stuff and you

know, in in in the school and
go, look at different rooms and

what is this room and what is
that room?

And I think, in a way, there
was a symptom of the recognition

of some void like something
that is like I don't want to be

here.

Speaker 2: You know when we say
something is boring.

Speaker 1: What we're actually
saying is that it angers us that

we can't do anything with
changing our current right now

you know, wow, yeah, you know,
wow, yeah, um, and, and, and,

that that anger is coming from
like some reaction to the, to

the state of where you are, um,
yeah, and I also think everybody

has a hole in the heart.

Yeah, you know, it's a
different shape.

It's uh, um.

We all cope with this
differently and I think that's

what also makes us humans, you
know, because that that that

void is what creates the empathy
.

Your unique empathy is directly
related to the shape of the

heart, or the shape of the hole
in your heart.

You know, yeah, and, and if you
were a I don't know if you are

that would be the better you are
, not the better from audience,

listener count, but better,
meaning how close truly you are

to the shape of that hole, the
better artist you are.

It probably would affect what
you're writing about and how

you're writing the music that's
coming out of you.

You know, and if you were a
painter, the same thing, yeah

and um, and, and, and.

You know, in a sense, it has
everything, everything and to do

with, like, what you chose to
do.

You know you're choosing to do
now, yeah and um, and we're all

like this.

You know, sometimes we
recognize that connection

sometimes we don't.

And sometimes we understand
that connection, sometimes we

don't.

Speaker 2: Um yeah, I like that.

That's a.

It's a.

I mean, it's a good way to from
what, from what I gather, it's

like this little compass, when
we're aware of it, to understand

you know what we need to be
doing, or like where we feel

like we have the most impact.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what
makes us unique, you know?

Yeah, like, just like.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know I'm
curious.

Maybe a better, better maybe to
tap on this, and this is

probably the question I was
looking for is when did you and

we all have something right and
and some people it takes longer

to figure that out, or some
people it takes, you know, uh it

was.

It takes really, you know, not
that long to figure it out.

But I guess, when did you, was
there ever any uh moment or a

series of moments or kind of
period in your life where you

kind of recognized that you had
something different that you

wanted to explore?

Maybe that was like a little
stronger than most other people,

like you had a drive to do
something that was a little bit

different.

Speaker 1: First I would say
that I think we're all different

.

Speaker 2: first I would say
that I think we're all different

.

Speaker 1: It's just a matter of
how well we recognize what

we're different and what we're
great in, and then it's a

combination of luck and skill
and privilege and whatnot you

know, and then what you were
born with Like it's all a

mixture.

But I think we're all different
.

You know, and, yeah, I would
say, very, very early on in my

life I was always, you know, an
instigator, or doing something

wrong or doing something
different or not really

complacent with the environment.

That I'm at, not from a bad
point of view, but almost like,

as you know, the teachers really
didn't know what to do.

When it's like somebody who's
very smart, gets A's like now

you know, like get all this
stuff and also is the cheeky one

that is like starting the
ruckus, and you know doing all

this.

You know doing all this.

You know, yeah, I don't I don't
have a specific moment, but I

can say that from very, very
early stage I didn't feel like

I'm a fit in places.

You know, well, like, oh, I've
arrived.

The only city that I feel like
I've arrived at is New York City

and it's full, you know, with
crazy people, which I love, you

know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, um, so yes no,
I, I appreciate you taking these

, uh, because it's something
that I know for me.

I didn't figure out.

I knew something was different,
but I didn't really know what I

was trying to pursue, uh, until
I hit like maybe 28, 29, 30,

you know, um, so it took me a
little while to like figure that

out, kind of like to speaking
to your point, like I knew that

it was kind of a square peg in a
round hole, but I just didn't

understand where the square, the
square hole, was.

You know, yeah, um, and so, no,
I, just a lot of that, a lot of

this is just personal, uh, or
maybe, maybe it's selfish to

understand kind of a little bit
more about your journey and a

little bit more about you.

Speaker 1: Well, for sure you
don't do, yeah yeah, you don't

need to explain why you're
asking me questions.

I mean, I'm here to have a
conversation and is there

anything you know?

Just so.

Speaker 2: Yeah, feel free yeah,
I mean something else that, uh,

I appreciate that and something
else that that stuck out to me

and maybe this is probably what
I wanted to pull on or what I

wanted to learn a little bit
more about.

You went to school for
architecture, yeah, and then I

believe you just kind of stopped
, yeah.

So I'm curious because, again,
probably the one thing I

immediately thought about is
like, what did your family think

?

You know, like, how did that
conversation go down?

Definitely curious about that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, first I
finished, you know, three out of

five years of architecture and
urban planning and I didn't stop

because I didn't like it, of
architecture and urban planning,

and I didn't stop because I
didn't like it.

I stopped because I had
everything I needed to do, what

I realized I'm here to do, which
is, you know, I guess architect

of digital spaces, and this is
what, in a sense, this is how I

look at myself.

That's what I do.

I'm an architect of digital
spaces and what I do, you know

what I do with towns, what I do
with house party, what I do with

Mirka.

These are types of buildings
that have certain

characteristics.

They have opinionated
blueprints in how people should

come together, feel safe, feel
seen, enjoy, playing, meet one

another.

They have different types of
blueprints, but they have

blueprints and these are
buildings.

These are digital buildings and
they're not buildings in the

sense of the metaverse, where
you're walking around in some 3D

.

You know, 3d building, 3d
building.

There are places that are
building in their philosophical

DNA of what is the purpose of a
shelter.

When you think about what is
the purpose of a shelter, it has

certain functions for safety,
for opportunities for people to

come together, for doing
different functions.

They have things that have
direct correlation to our

feelings.

You know the size of the
windows, whether we feel more

intimate, whether we feel
vulnerable.

Is it open by default?

Is it closed by default?

Is the window, is the door?

Is it see-through, is it not?

How is the hallway's position
towards the living room?

Is it the first thing you walk
in through?

Is the main living room, or is
it a series of doors?

All of these change our
perception of how we can act in

a space.

Right, and all of this serves
into, like, how we utilize the

space.

And when you think about
digital products, where,

specifically, ones where we come
together and communicate, just

like the product that we're
using now to do this podcast,

right, it's, in a sense, it was
architected as a space, even the

digital space for this specific
function.

You know of what we're doing
right now and whoever

architected it took into account
what is going to be the use of

the space, how people are going
to come in and out, what's going

to happen after use of the
space, how people are going to

come in and out, what's going to
happen after.

You know, and in the same way
you know, I think of my work as

what is the kind of blueprints
on the internet that we're

missing for how we're coming
together, what we're doing

together, what kind of cool
designs?

And I got to tell you there's
not much of us, there's a whole.

There's not much of us, there's
a whole, there's a lot, there's

a.

I'm not even sure I heard even
one person you know even

describing themselves like this.

So I think there are a bunch of
them that don't know that

they're digital architects.

But even take all of them,
there's not a lot of us.

No, and I think that's a really
interesting and fascinating job

to have.

I'm very lucky in that sense
because I get to have an idea

for a building, I get to raise
the capital for the building, I

get to get it out, I get to put
it on the map, I get to try to

convince people to come in and
enjoy it and maybe make some

money along the way, and that's
really cool.

So when, after again this long
preamble, going back to your

question, why did I stop
architecture?

Because I realized that I want
to become an architect of

digital people.

So I just stopped after when I
realized that and I started my

first company, which was the
first building I wanted to build

, yeah, and how did the parents
react to this?

They didn't have much say, not
because I don't take their

advice or care about their
advice, but mostly because you

know I'm a person of high
conviction.

You can't really convince me.

Know when?

When I get, when I clearly see
something like it's yeah,

there's not much to do there, I
cannot even convince myself like

I just I can, the best I can do
is hold off a little bit, yeah,

but that's the best.

Like wait a day or two or a
week, you know, but that's the

max.

Um, because I just get crazy.

I just it's like an itch that
you cannot scratch and it's like

okay, okay, like I have to
scratch it.

Um, and the incentive alignment
didn't work in their behavior,

in their favor, because it's
like it wasn't, like they paid,

not in a bad way.

I, I don't want to come off as
a criticism or anything, but

like when you, when you, it's,
it's a, it's a.

Even in in america, a lot, of,
a lot of parents tend to pay for

the, the, the students, college
, which makes this conversation

harder.

So when you're asking it, I
think it's, it's, it's good to

disclose that I, uh, you know,
and in to me, I didn't have that

.

No, I think it's a friction,
you know.

Speaker 2: I mean that's a huge,
that's a huge friction point,

for sure, yeah yeah, extra,
extra friction.

Speaker 1: I didn't have.

It didn't pay to any aspect of
my life, so there wasn't any

dependency of my lifestyle or my
day to day with how angry they

are that makes sense.

Speaker 2: That makes sense, I
mean, yeah, it's, but mostly

also from just a generational
you know gap of you know what

type of opportunity was
available to them versus what's

available, like what was what's
available to us through the

internet.

I think that you know it's very
different, you know, I feel

like being an entrepreneur in
their time was probably a lot

harder than it is now.

Um, yeah, you know, um, there
was only a few paths.

Yeah, Especially.

Speaker 1: You know, I grew up
in Israel and they're both.

You know, my mom is essentially
an immigrant from Tunisia that

moved to Israel.

When she was three, my dad was
born I think the first year his

family moved in from Libya.

So, believe me, they didn't
have a lot of opportunity.

Speaker 2: Did your parents move
?

Are your parents still over in
Israel?

Did they move over to?

Yeah, all my family's in.

Speaker 1: Israel, all my family
.

I have three younger brothers,
my parents there.

Speaker 2: How did you end up
coming over here, like, if you

don't mind me asking, no, my
first company.

Speaker 1: My first company had
a big breakout and success and I

moved to um the states, nice,
nice yeah, no, it's definitely,

yeah, yeah, definitely a proud
american.

You know, citizen pay your
taxes.

Speaker 2: Uh, oh yeah yeah,
don't know, don't know what gets

done with the taxes, but but we
pay them.

Um, we're paying them.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Um, I think there was a tweet
you were mentioning around uh,

you paying some sort of like
exuberant tax fee for new york

and it didn't include the
sidewalks, but you still love it

.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and then they
wanted to pay.

Yeah, and then they want to pay
me this.

I'm like god damn, it isn't.

Like.

I'm like I already paid so much
taxes.

And you know, you also have the
line item of new york city tax,

which is on top of the state
tax yeah and I'm like how are

you sending me a pavement bill
for the payment outside my house

?

I thought that was included in
the additional new york city tax

, you know yeah, listen honestly
.

That's the price of the market.

You know what I mean.

That's the market.

There's enough beaters.

It is what it is, you know and
and I'm happy, I'm a happy buyer

.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: It's kind of similar
to Austin in a way, where I

moved from the city or moved
outside of the city to the city

and I remember seeing my
electric bills like, oh, wow,

I'm saving a lot of money here,
like this is good, but I almost

pay my electric bill in city
fees and taxes, just on

electricity.

Like there's like clean road
fees for an electricity company.

It's like, oh my God, I'm
almost paying.

It's not quite, but I'm paying
like 60% of my electric bill on

top of my electric bill every
single month and I'm like, well,

okay, I guess this is just the
cost of being here, yeah.

Speaker 1: It's a type of an L0
that you're paying the gas fees

for because you like it, yeah,
you like it, yeah, you know, and

that's what it is.

It is, I love the way you put
that it's the same here.

Speaker 2: I love the way you
put that.

I think it's probably a good
segue.

You're paying the gas fees me
too, baby.

Yep, yeah, 2021, 2021, gas fees
.

Um, yeah, exactly, yeah, I
think it's probably a good

transition, uh, to how did you
find crypto, man, like I'm

always like, I'm always curious
of, like the, what fascinated

you by this, um, and what was
kind kind of the entryway for

you to come here?

Speaker 1: The entryway came in.

So I was playing around as just
a curious investor in 2016,

2017.

Just buying a little bit here,
a little bit there.

And then in 2019, I started
getting some portions of my exit

with House Party and I remember
the first portion wasn't like a

lot.

It was, you know it is a lot in
many, many, many ways.

You know, like call it, you
know, half a million dollars was

like a first payment, something
like that.

It is a lot in many, many ways,
but it's like, you know, when

you live in San Francisco, it
doesn't really help you buy a

house.

You know what I mean, you know
what I mean and and I was like

you know, this is, you know, one
payment out of many or whatever

, and like.

So I go to my friends and I'm
like, who are like deep into,

like deep, and this is like
before the break of 2019, like

this before, and you know, I
started to spend time with them

and I'm like, you know, maybe I
should just invest in this

because it's like I'm I'm
already comfortable with it

because I've been investing, you
know, smaller amounts since

2016 and I find it to be really
fascinating and it's like these

are my close friends and they're
like very into it, so like in

it, and they're doing all the
stuff you know and they, they

kind of red filled me.

Basically I bought.

I remember buying like a bunch
of eat for a hundred and

something dollars a meat and but
I'm talking about a lot of it.

Yeah, like you know, like a
hundred grand of it for a

hundred dollars, you know, and
like chain link, I remember

buying for a dollar thirty
you're a link marine, are you?

dude for a dollar thirty?

Also, you're a link marine.

Are you Dude for $1.30.

?

Also, like 50 to 100 grand SNX
if you Synthetix for 90 cents.

I remember those, you know all
of these and I kind of went to

this like the whole.

My friends had like this whole
philosophy about how, you know,

you need a way to secure
computation which is ethereum,

so they were very bullish.

And then on that, you need an
oracle and you need a derivative

market, which was synthetic and
you know you need, you need, uh

, um, what was another one?

There was another one.

Basically, there was these kind
of um, there was like five of

those, and then defy summer
happened the year after and it

was like christmas.

You know what I mean.

It was like a big.

It became like a big exit for
me.

Yeah, and and and you know from
that moment that that was kind

of, I guess, my former years,
because I was actually in it

reading, staking, doing all this
stuff.

You know, and try asking all
these questions, understanding

you know what to do and how and
actually being hands on on this,

and you know, and that's where,
personally, I got comfortable

with the idea that this is real,
this is real, this is how it

works.

This is from a personal
standpoint.

It is like I understand it, you
know, and I believe in it, but,

you know, as an architect
architect of digital building it

doesn't really connect.

No, they're just like something
I'm curious, just like I'm

curious about piano and I'm
learning and I'm doing things

with piano, you know and food
and and and and music and this

and that.

So, um, in at some point in 2022
, we've been working in here and

out there and we've been trying
to do something that was

pandemic, basically kind of like
washed away, not in a bad way,

it's just like more like the use
case was not there anymore,

when people are like remote and
like focused on their calendar

video chats, remote and like
focused on their calendar video

chats and um, so we were like,
you know, something really

interesting happening with
blockchain, because it becomes

this like open graph, becomes
this open graph that you can

actually anyone can read and
write to and you can actually

make access management decisions
on the fly to bring people that

have shared interests or shared
experiences together and that

can create very interesting
types of buildings.

Because, you know, imagine, you
know, imagine, you know you

talked a lot about like anyone
when you're walking inside,

anyone you see there has
interacted with the art that was

there or like is one of the
owners of the art you know, or

and that's like provable, yeah,
you know.

All of a sudden it becomes a
much more interesting experience

of the museum because it
creates some sort of guarantees

and shared experiences with the
people that are there.

So you might, you know, have
conversations that are different

.

You might think about different
use of the space.

That is like a direct outcome
of those shared experiences.

You could think about, you know,
a museum that only have people

from your hometown you know, so
so, so like and it's not just

museum, I'm just giving this
like analogy of a place, but

like.

The idea is that I I mean like,
I believe that, especially now,

with AI that can essentially,
you know, replicate us

infinitely to the place that, to
the degree that people don't

recognize what's us and not, I
think, that cryptographic proof

of who did what and who is human
and who is who, are going to

become a huge, huge thing.

And we are going to the same
way we accept cookies.

We're going to be like, you
know, use your touch id to like,

confirm that this is you, this
is actually ben, and this will

the.

The best technology for that is
blockchain, the you know to do

to do this enumeration, to make
sure that this is enumeration.

That is like, decentralized and
everybody can write to and read

from right.

So I want you to think about a
world in five to ten years where

the internet is so fast and
smart that it can be.

Any one of us can have its own
bot agent that look like

themselves, behave like
themselves and even can call

your mother and say happy
birthday, and nobody would know.

And in that world, we will need
to prove when it's really us

and the best way to go about a
global system, global ledger of

who is doing what action that is
actually human, verifying that

it's them the best technology
for this will be blockchain.

This is blockchain and that
means that we are entering we

have entered in many ways into a
period where a lot of things

that are happening in real life
are getting some form of

attestation on chain, you know,
and different countries have

more or less version of it, and
we're in the very, very

beginning of that.

Speaker 2: And.

Speaker 1: I think that this
creates this whole new

opportunity to say you know, you
can deduct different ways of

how you can put people together,
because now a group chat is not

about dad or spoken who have
each other's phone.

It's actually like, oh, if you
watch, watch, if you listen to

the same music as me, as spotify
, if you truly do, then like you

, come in you know, yeah, if you
know, like, imagine everyone

repped a year on spotify was on
on a graph, like a listening

graph that is on chain, yeah,
and then imagine.

And then imagine like what you,
what you in in that reality.

What you could do right now
with towns is create a town that

say there's essentially
permissionless group chat, that

says anyone who has this artist
at their top artists on that, on

on on the, that spotify know
blockchain ledger, like can come

into this town and that is a
really cool space.

Like, truly like.

That's a really cool space and
this is not something we can do

right now anywhere else.

You know, right, and while
towns does have the building

blocks for you to create this
experience.

Fortunately, spotify doesn't
have an open protocol for who

listens to what, but my point is
that we do have projects that

slowly bring those things to
life With restaurants, with

education, with contributions to
projects, with even ID in some

of the countries, and I think
that's really cool, or even ID

in some of the countries, and I
think that's really cool.

And I do think that there will
come a day in the next year or

two where you will see a
protocol, maybe from Spotify or

maybe from SoundCloud, where
they do put this kind of like

information on chain.

Yeah, and that's where these
things become really, really

interesting, because all of a
sudden, the world of the

internet, even though it's so
anonymized, it can become

intimate, not on your identity
but actually on your actions,

and that's a vertical we haven't
have reduced the graph for, and

I think it's a very interesting
graph because once you have a

collective of people that are
engaging, where they prove their

action, the value, the
collective value of what they

can do, the economic value is
actually can be underwritten,

and when it can be underwritten,
then it becomes an economic

value that they can unleash
together.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, and I think it's really
fucking cool.

Speaker 2: I mean, dude, you're
touching on a lot of things that

I didn't have the confidence to
really speak them when I first

came into the space, but that
ideas that I had I'm like, wow,

this lit, quite this tech quite
literally touches everything.

Like you know, there there is,
there's so many things that can

be done from this and kind of
what you were saying of like I'm

you know, I'm a tool fan, the,
the band tool, and you know

there's a very specific type of
people that are the top one to

two percent of listeners on like
fish yeah, it's the same type

of just cult like grateful dead.

Yeah, all of these yeah, exactly
, there's a, there's a time and

and even, and even uh, kind of
just zooming out a bit of of,

you know, the space that we all
met at.

One of the things that was just
so fascinating and mind blowing

to me in the beginning was like
, oh my god, god, based on the

people I'm meeting on Twitter,
in CryptoWeb3, whatever you want

to call it, there is an
automatic.

There are a few assumptions
that can be made where we don't

really have to like suss each
other out like you would meeting

a person for the first time,
like if you're here, you're kind

of psychotic, if you're
building something, if you're

full-time, you're even crazier.

You know, um, and that that has
a set of relatability.

You're, as we all call it,
we're in the trenches.

There's a lot of shared
experience, shared wins, shared

losses, and so the moment at
least, this is what I've

experienced that I've met some
of the people that I've met

online in person.

It's some of it's.

These bonds that I have through
here are some of the strongest

bonds I've ever had, more than
people that you know.

Obviously, I have my close
circle of friends, but it takes

so much less time, you know, to
understand and to have that

connection with people, even
just based on Twitter.

So what you're talking about
with Towns and kind of this

digital space, is super
fascinating Because it goes down

the niche, like it.

It really uh, goes down even
further to very specific

interest.

Um, and you don't really have
to.

There's an automatic sense of
trust.

You know, uh, that comes from.

Oh my god, you're a fish fan,
oh you're a tool fan or no,

you're.

There is a.

There is just a genuine
excitement.

Uh, that really can't be
replicated.

Um, and finding ways to do that
on chain is super fascinating.

Um, so I think you know this is
a roundabout way and probably a

question that I should ask
probably probably would help.

Uh, people are listening is you
know?

We taught?

You talked about towns a few
times.

This is what you're currently
building.

It's currently released.

What is Towns and who is it for
and why should people?

Yeah, why should people use it?

Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you're on
Web3 and you're using Discord

or Telegram, you should be using
Towns.

That's as simple as this.

Why?

Because you're using Discord or
Telegram, you should be using

TAMs.

That's as simple as this.

Why?

Because you're using two
centralized companies that don't

have end-to-end encryption.

That all the economic value that
you're creating with your

communities on Telegram or
Discord you don't have any way

to harness it.

You don't have any way to
harness it.

You don't have any way to prove
reputation of people that are

coming in and out of your groups
and you don't have any way to

collect value, you know, in a
way that is transparent.

And the reason I'm starting
with that that and now I'm going

to explain what town does is
because I think these are these

are things that people just
accept, the reality of like, oh,

I got like a big, I got like a
big discord, and like it's very

engaged and we're all like bunch
of people and we have alpha for

meme coins and we help one
another and we all make money

together.

Dude, you're making money of.

Your alpha is just the tip of
what you deserve.

Like you can be creating so
much more money by if you can

prove the fact that you as a
collective, as a group, people

are being really smart and
tasteful about how you allocate

your portfolio, and if you can
prove it, you can charge for it.

And if you can charge for it in
a transparent way, you can make

much more money.

It's not just like the $10,000
that you're buying, griffin

right, it's also what you're
getting from other people who

are following your investment
thesis right, your takes.

And how would you even prove
other people?

How would other people explore
and know about you?

How would they see a proof that
you're actually good at what

you do?

And then how would you collect
it?

And so what Towns is?

It's protocol in and out?

And it's for what we call
permissionless group channels, a

set of smart contracts that
deployed on base, that represent

who is allowed to enter.

You know who has membership
access to this specific town,

and every town can have
different membership model.

It could be free, it could be
gated, it could be paid for.

People can pay with credit card
If they want to join your town

you know people can be yeah and
people want to join your town.

You know people can be yeah, um,
and people, people um, can

choose.

You know different models for
how they, how they, how they

want to collect uh, the value
for that and, um, the protocol

moves around messages end-to-end
encrypted between the members

of each town and every town.

You can actually see the smart
contract on chain.

You can see.

You can see channels that are
being created.

You can see memberships that
have been.

Every town has its own treasury
that is on chain.

So if you are paying membership
fees to join a town, you

actually you can actually see on
chain how it goes, like where

does it go?

Does you know?

You can see roles.

So anything that is about
access management is on chain,

visible to everyone, uh,
including the treasury and the

subscription, everything, and
then all the messages, uh, this

is the.

The town's protocol basically
moves uh, the messaging uh,

around between the, the members
of the town, yeah, and what's

really cool about it is you can
use any EVM-compatible chain to

have the town's protocol read
from the on-chain footprint and

resolve some access management
to who can be in the town.

You know what can they do read,
write or redact and that's

really cool because that set,
that unlocks a whole set of use

cases that says, hey, this town
can actually be composable in a

native way to other protocols,
right.

Also, what it can do is it can
natively collect contribution

and it can natively prove some
attestations that the members

are doing Like, oh, the people
here actually hold what they're

saying, they're holding, they
actually have bought or sold

what they say they bought or
sold, you know, which underwrite

the whole premise of the value
of why somebody should pay for.

And then, if people are paying
for it, then they can see also

oh, this is where the money goes
, this is how it's been used,

and the whole thing can exist
even without our company.

You know, it's all operated
with all independent operators,

so not us, and it is, you know,
will be owned, completely owned

by the community, you know, very
soon, and I think it's like

really cool evolution for any,
you know.

I know some, uh, of the type of
the people who are listening to

this podcast, because two of
them are the ones in my team,

the two who were very, like,
excited about this.

Um, but you, there is no reason
for someone who believes in

this frontier of the Internet,
of where we're going with our

own perception of the kind of
value we're creating and our

taste with the Internet and how
we're finding you know the

things that are exciting us and
how we.

There is no reason to stay with
the old guard of the discords

and the, the, the telegram.

I have yet to find a
supermarket that you can pay

with nitro.

I haven't find it.

Speaker 2: I'm looking, I'm
going with nitro.

Speaker 1: I'm trying to pay for
shit.

I can't.

Speaker 2: Or Fortnite V-Bucks.

You know, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1: But I think it's
important to recognize that the

way we come together as human
beings from the beginning of

time, that's what gave us the
asymmetrical value of all other

species, because we learned to
collaborate together and we come

together online.

Why do we keep it in a platform
that you know to send?

We chant a bit, we come
together, we create, we go into

this, this a discord server or
telegram group and like we're

living so much on the table on
the floor Right, great way to

put it.

We should own the space that
we're in.

We should use the technologies
we believe in, like blockchain,

to show that we're creating
value.

We should be able to charge for
this value, to enjoy the upside

of that, you know, and and get
rewarded the way we deserve.

You know, totally, totally.

There are people, you know
people coming together and

moving markets and all they get
is their own little portion of

their portfolio in it.

Yeah, but honestly, they should
be getting also a portion of

their influence, and that's
where.

That's where I think that's
that's the next frontier, and

this is why people should own
their group chats.

Speaker 2: They should, and yeah
, no, this is really good, dude,

there there's there's a few
points or a few questions and

and rabbit holes I want to
explore on this because, yeah,

you covered a lot and this is a
brilliant, brilliant explanation

here One of the things that it
actually came to me last night,

you know because we're talking
about full ownership, we're

talking about the idea of you
owning the upside, being kind of

like the master of your own
destiny here when it comes to

operating a company, because you
mentioned, like this soon will

be able to be run, it'll just
run independently of you guys.

So I'm curious in that sense,
once the company has achieved

the path to either
decentralization or sufficiently

decentralized, what is the role
of the company at that point?

And, kind of, really, how do
you think about that?

Speaker 1: So I think where we
left off is this analogy to

parenthood, where a parent has a
big responsibility in making

sure that the kid is safe in the
early ages and their ability to

evolve, pursue their curiosity,
their own growth right, be

nourished for the things that
they need and have their own

point of view and, in a sense,
human beings are.

You know, having a kid is the
act of decentralization, right,

like you're creating an atomic
unit that is separate than you,

it shares your DNA, meaning it
shares the way you're creating

an atomic unit that is separate
than you.

It shares your dna, meaning it
shares the way you're thinking

and the way you are thinking
about you know, um, different

things.

Whatever you know you can, you
can call it your code.

It shares your code, but, um,
it's supposed to act on its own

right at some point.

And you know, I think you can
take, I think you can take, you

can maybe think about it as
dodge years, meaning, you know,

the road to the age of 21 is the
three dog years.

Yeah, in a decentralized cell.

Um, I do hope the three years
from now.

You know, towns is a completely
independent protocol that you

know is able to flip his parents
the finger and say I don't want

to do this, you know, and, and
I think, think, just for you to

be in a place that is
sustainable and have the

confidence to do it, despite
what the creators want, that is,

you know, that will be great,
that would be a great

achievement, you know, even if
it's you know, if in some points

or cases it won't, I won't
share the same point of view,

but I think that's success.

You know that is success.

That is a growth of
decentralized, totally Of any

decentralized system where
things can be in this agreement

and continue to process.

You know, to have a different
point of view, yeah.

Speaker 2: I think that's like
when you I remember, yeah, when

you, when you just said that I
mean that I never really thought

of it like that Cause.

When, especially when I think
back at, like you know obviously

, the journey I've had with my
family, you know, it's like

they're literally planting seeds
and they're literally taking

the brunt of everything you know
, at least in this, especially

the early years, to kind of show
me how to like it's this

balance of nurture versus, you
know, kind of letting me fall on

my face, you know, and figuring
that path out.

So it's really cool to see that
.

Or I guess, have that analogy
or that can actually really that

was a that's that makes
complete sense and I don't think

I've really heard it in that
light before.

Um, I think what I want to do
is continue on this thread.

Like so say you have, like this
is a really cool goal to have

this thing be fully
decentralized.

We're, we're kind of seeing the
you've probably seen more, but

the one example I think that
stands out, uh, and it's not a

specific um, like a specific
product.

I mean I guess you could argue
it is, but you know, base is

path to being fully
decentralized.

Like that's the one thing that I
kind of look at is like, okay,

they started very, very
centralized.

They've hit, or they're about
to hit, an incredible milestone.

Where it's, you know it's like
one layer, it's like that first

dog year.

You know where it's like like,
okay, we've hit this mark, this

part's decentralized and then
they do the next, uh, few things

.

I think, really, where I have
the most curiosity is like for

you as a builder and for the,
for the team at towns as

builders, you know when that, uh
, when that happens, what is it

that you guys want to do next?

Is it more of dedicating a few
small resources?

Is this part of like a bigger?

Is this town part of its own
town?

Um?

Speaker 1: I mean, um, I don't
know, I don't, I don't.

I try not to spend time
thinking about it because that's

fair.

Then, yeah, the nature of these
things is that it is the game

theory dynamics of a system that
is supposed to go to.

A non-centralized state means,
inherently, there's going to be

compounding scenarios.

They're just trying to crock
them, just like.

So it's really important to
move from first principle, which

is okay.

What are, what are the set of
actions that we can do right now

, within our control, to get
this one step forward and learn

the new information that we need
to know.

The goal of the next step is to
learn what we need to learn, to

then step after you know and
the step after.

And that's kind of how I view
it, because it's really hard to

do those extrapolations of
future states, especially in

decentralized systems, because
it's just like you're playing

chess, not with one player, but
I don't know how many pawns are

in the chess game.

Speaker 2: I want to say six to
eight, something like that, I

don't know.

Like when it comes to pawns
specifically, yeah.

Oh, but how many all the things
combined?

Speaker 1: oh I don't know, um,
I just enjoy playing the game.

Uh, sounds like 16.

So, yeah, yeah, like 32 players
.

You know what I mean.

Like playing chess with 32
players.

Yeah, um, that's a long one
board.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, exactly
something that you know it's.

It's I asked that question and
then I kind of I've asked, you

know, similar questions in
different scenarios around.

You know it's.

I think it's always natural to
think about, uh, both the past

and the future and kind of how
they affect each other, and it's

easy to kind of get, especially
in crypto, it's really easy to

kind of see, uh or get a lot of
hopium on, like you know, the

grand vision of like what this
could be and kind of be really

concrete in that.

And I think there's something
interesting that, at least from

what I've noticed, especially in
the world of ai that we're

living in right now, um, like, I
think, when it comes to

predicting into the future of a
system that hasn't fully been

built out yet, like
decentralized businesses haven't

, like they're not really.

You know this is we're just
starting this.

You know the it seems like you
guys are on the path, so there's

no, there's no blueprint of of
how people have done it in the

past.

So I guess what I'm saying is,
the more I ask that question,

the more I kind of realize, just
like in the epiphany of like

it's almost impossible, you know
, and there's so many things

that happen even in my personal
life, like when I have a set

concrete, super rigid plan of
how things should look.

What it actually looks like
when it happens, if it ever does

, is completely different and
way better than I could have

ever anticipated, you know.

Um, so hearing you say that
makes a lot of sense and it's

probably an interesting like way
to like rethink that and

reframe that.

Um, kind of like what you said
around you guys are trying to

learn what you guys are trying
to learn to get to the next step

, cause the questions may not
even be fully thought out yet.

Um, yeah, no, that's that makes
a lot of sense.

Um, I want to.

I want to talk about something
we chatted about a little

earlier around the current
messaging systems, around

Discord, telegram.

That's kind of what a lot of
people use today, especially, at

least, in crypto gaming
communities.

One thing that I wanted to maybe
tap on a little bit here is the

inflection point where people
realize that they should not be

on these platforms and they
should be on towns, and I want

to give an example of that or
kind of the context of where I'm

coming from on this is that I
came into crypto through NFTs.

Pictures are the thing that
made the most sense to me.

I didn't really understand
crypto at all.

Like I understood the
principles and the foundation of

it, but until I could transact
with objects that meant

something and had a lot of
cultural value to me, I didn't

really give two shits about
crypto.

You know, like to be fully
honest.

But after about a year in the
space then I saw something an

example, like you know, the
Canadian government shutting

down bank accounts for like an
act of war, for helping the

truckers during covid, uh, and
they basically froze people's

money.

And then that's when it clicked
for me.

I'm like oh, crypto is like
actually this, like these people

aren't just absolutely crazy,
like things like this can't

actually happen and this is why
we're building something against

this.

So I guess the point that I'm
making is like usually people

don't kind of change something
unless there's like a or change

their mind, or maybe this is
just me projecting and happy no,

no, no I, I agree with you,
yeah, so I I guess like, what is

that?

what inflection point have you
typically seen for people to

become power users on towns, or
what are some of the things that

you kind of foresee people
causing them to jump ship?

Speaker 1: so so, first of all,
we're at month three from

launching towns and we're still
learning about where we fail our

users in the funnels, and you
know the features that we have

and how we improve it.

I don't subscribe to a product
strategy that is trying to talk

about doomsday and fear
scenarios what if the government

is going to take your thing?

What if this Because you know
Towns is not about diverting the

government or trying to do you
know, it's not about this.

I rather focus on message.

The following message is if you
exist in the medium of culture

and ownership on the internet,
you believe in an online value

creation.

If you're part of that school
of thought, it is important for

you to examine why are you
collaborating and coordinating

on platforms that are
centralized, where you do not

share the upside of the value
creation that you're doing with

your taste, with your
conversations, with your

understanding, with your
coordinations with your peer?

Those platforms do not.

They get the upside, they enjoy
all the upside, but you don't

have any native, transparent and
immediate way to capture the

value that you're creating.

To capture the value that
you're creating and the same way

that you know, the
computational L1 specifically,

you know, let's talk about
Ethereum and Upward, created an

opportunity for people to unlock
a whole value creation just by

existing participating,
operating, sharing, adding

functionality online.

There is the next set of this
of like okay, we did it on an

infrastructure level, right,
what it is that is happening on

a conversation on communication
level, where that idea of value

creation and capturing and value
accrual that is happening

through communication, where it
does not right now capture on

Web3, right, and it could be
captured and it's not captured

on Web2 either right, and it
could be captured and it's not

captured on web two either right
, you know.

So the actual pitch and or the
inflection point is where we did

a good enough job as a company
to show people that if they, if

we do good on our premise, there
is enough reputation built into

the towns that people are
joining that they're willing to

pay, they're willing to say I'm
going to join Buna Town why?

Because that guy rocks.

I learned so much, I get
exclusive content, he has all

these interesting takes about
trading and about art and I'm

actually I think I should
contribute to him, you know 10

or 50 bucks a year because I'm
really enjoying the community

there and there's enough
reputation happening where it's

almost like think about an app
store but think about a town

store, right, like, think about
an app store, but think about a

town store, right, where we're
like there is there is like a

lot of feedback and rating and
and you'll understand, oh fuck,

like there is there's like 10
000 people here paying 50 bucks

a year to be part of this
community and I'm making half a

million dollar a year.

It's all transparent, on-chain,
which is really cool.

Because now you start thinking,
wait, could there be like DeFi

protocol, that like look at the
subscription that is happening

on-chain on Boonatown and as a
town owner, I might get blown

against my future earnings,
because all of these things are

really interesting to think
about.

Because there is a reason why
you're doing podcasts.

There's a group of people that
are coming here to listen.

They enjoy the value you create
and right now there is a lot of

augmentations in the process
indirect augmentation in order

for your group to capture value
that you're creating.

Your group to capture value
that you're creating right, it's

not as native as as, like,
directly, people uh, uh,

benefiting and paying and and
and what we want to tell if you

do good, if you do good on the
premise as a protocol as a

client is that it's it's all of
a sudden that it clicks to

people that is like oh wait, I
can capture more value of the

one that I created online, also
bringing my communication

aspects on chain.

And it's not that messages in
towns are like move, are moving

on chain there, there, there is,
there's a, there's a whole.

You know, you can read the docs
about how it works, but

eventually it ends obviously
encrypted, rolls up to chain.

But the graph, the access
management, the treasury, who

can read, who can write, all of
that is on-chain and all of the

messaging layer that is moving
between those users is

decentralized and eventually
rolls to chain, which is what

makes it, you know, kind of like
, gives it like a competitive,

like it's on par with what you
expect from from a web 2.0 app.

Yeah, um, and I think that's
something that we we have to

think about because, like, the
way we coordinate, that's that's

that's value, that's the value
creation that we do right, and

right now we're we're
coordinating in places that

don't really benefit us, uh,
beyond the same way that they

have 10 years ago.

All the changes like where we
act, okay, the places we act,

now is in Web3 and there's
upside there, all right, cool,

but what is the next value?

Unlock once this conversation
has meaning.

That can be traced, therefore
can be packaged and sold by by

the people who create this
conversation, not by some

third-party ad platform, you
know yeah, I mean there's a lot.

Speaker 2: I mean, man, I, I
really hate that we're pressed

for time, uh, you know, in these
situations, but it's honestly

really it gives me a lot to
think about um, because I, yeah,

I, I think, especially having
this being built on ethereum, it

if I really go back to what I
understand of the tech, which is

, I still think it's not, you
know, I'm there's a lot more

people that are smarter me on
that but I can understand in a

general vague sense around how
this is just essentially a

building block.

You know, that's the one thing
that I really enjoy about

Ethereum is that everything is
modular, it's composable, it can

, it can talk to each other in
ways that you know, I haven't

really seen before, and so when
you talk about things like, you

know, towns and group chats and
people, you can look at all of

the data and start speculating
on the data in ways that are

really unique and interesting
and novel.

Um, and I really liked that how
you kind of made that personal

on just to kind of paint a
really clear picture of you know

, if it was me that did it, you
know this is what it would look

like.

Um, so, yeah, I mean a lot to
think about there, um, and I

think that, yeah, that's I'm
trying, I'm going to put, I want

to put a pin in that Um, and
really I want to talk about

cause I know you guys mentioned
this a lot Uh, and this is

something that is in all of your
posts and I think it's really a

great synergy uh around your
partner river.

Um, maybe we're not getting too
technical, but like want to

maybe look at from a high level
you know what role they play uh

in towns, kind of, how that
partnership works.

You know what are you guys
utilizing them for?

And kind of just it's really
interesting to see because I

think they're the, they're the
specific privacy um service for

all of the messages and that
make it on chain and you guys do

the the front end kind of bring
it all together.

So I'm really kind of curious,
like did this?

You know?

Yeah, just kind of curious how
that partnership works, um,

maybe from a high level, or kind
of what roles y'all play here,

um, because I've I've done.

Speaker 1: When you say
partnership, what do you mean

exactly?

So?

Speaker 2: I guess, like, is it
a partnership?

So, like you know it's, it's
towns built on river.

All right, you're.

You know you're using using
river as a okay so, so, so.

Speaker 1: So right now, the
name of the protocol is river.

We are we are considering
unifying it, so there's towns,

protocol and towns client.

Speaker 2: okay, so is river you
guys as well.

Yeah, oh, I didn't know that I
had.

No, yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, but we're
a river, a river, um well, we,

we, we, you know, we set to
build the protocol, and and

that's incredible.

Yeah, and we are like you can't
do a social protocol without a

product because, like, how are
you going to show why this is

important to people?

You know, yeah, and honestly,
it's so much work to do all of

these things, you know, and, and
we're lucky that we're so

passionate about this because we
have, we have like, that's

that's a lot of grind, you know,
like, but we we're like, you

know it's worth it.

It's worth it.

It's worth it because it's cool
and the world needs something

like this.

Um, but yeah, we to your point,
exactly to this past two minutes

, exactly where you're like, oh,
this is, this is related.

It's like, yes, uh, we, we
thought that it will make more

sense in the beginning to have a
different name.

So people feel, you know, like,
see that these are different

and in all the senses, river is
no longer like it's controlled

by a Swiss association that
guards the protocol and it has

all the plumbing and setup that
it's independent.

But what we noticed is that
it's really hard for people to

take on a new brand, and if
you're lucky that they take a

new brand, you cannot bet that
they will take another brand.

You know, yeah, and and and
maybe we need to make it easier

a little bit for people to
connect the dots.

That's like so that's, that's
something that we haven't yet

decided, but like.

That's exactly like changing
like.

But like, that's exactly like
it changing like you know,

recommending to the, the, the
that the protocol will update,

that the name to towns protocol.

So just like, fits and easy for
people to grok.

Speaker 2: Um, so, yeah, so, so,
so that's, that's the

partnership in a sense.

Yeah, I love that dude.

Yeah, this, I mean, do we do a
little learning in public?

Because, yeah, I had, I
genuinely thought it was, yeah,

a partnership that they were.

I thought they were completely
separate, uh, yeah, yeah, but no

, it's, it's rad.

I mean that's a huge
undertaking, uh, but it makes a

lot of sense.

Like you can't really have one.

You can't really have one
without the other.

It's kind of hard to protocols
by themselves, you know, as much

as like, as valuable as they
are, they're not as like sexy or

catches the limelight as well,
you know, and so you need to

have products built on top of
those, on top of protocol, to

make sense.

Yes, yes, yes, okay, I'm putting
together here yeah, yeah yeah,

yeah, that's the best part about
this is that it uh, you know,

trying to explain what I do, you
know, to family or anyone

outside of here, it's it's like,
yeah, we're kind of just

building the thing as we're
flying it.

These are just like.

These are like these are just
new ideas at the edge of the

internet that are primitive and
haven't really been tested out

yet, or maybe a new version of
them is being tested out, and

sometimes it's hard to package
that up to people, you know.

So, work in progress, for sure.

Yeah, so we have about.

Yeah, we have a few minutes here
, so I wanna wrap up with a

couple more questions.

You know, you mentioned just
number one.

Towns is just released for
about like well, it's been out

publicly for about three months.

Is it super publicly available
right like right now?

Can anyone join and create the
towns?

Is it only for kind of specific
launch partners?

Just kind of curious, like how
people can get involved right

now, because this episode will
actually be aired tomorrow.

Speaker 1: Um, oh really, yeah,
yeah, that's amazing.

Yeah, um, well, uh, one of the
cool things in Towns is we have

an explore page.

You can go and look at some
different towns you want to join

.

So, like apptownscom slash
explore, you can find different

group chats that people have.

Some of them are gated, some of
them are paid, some of them are

free.

And some of them are gated.

Some of them are paid, some of
them are free.

There is the Shiller Town.

You know that you guys just
launched, which I obviously

recommend people.

It's a great opportunity to
kind of check it out and you can

create your own town.

You know, and if there's
anywhere that you have internet

friends where you guys kind of
exchange ideas and you're using

other products, you know it will
be really cool if you give it a

go, share with that group, give
it a spin, give us some

feedback.

There's a little In the Towns
app.

There's a web app, there's an
iOS app.

There's a web app, there's an
iOS app, there's a Mac app, but

in it on the corner right there
is a little ladybug where you

can report and send feedback.

Everything is read and you know
we're builders just like

everyone else in the space.

You know we're trying to do
something that we believe is

really important, which is to
bring value back to communities

from their conversations and
help us secure more of

communication, that we own it,
that we benefit from it, because

right now there's maybe four
companies that control all of

our communication and they're
all centralized, you know, and

there's yeah and there there's
like uh, you know and, and, and,

sure it's a startup, and and it
has.

You know, we, we, we have
investors, but in the grand

scheme of things, we're just
like small team that is trying

to take on a big item.

You know, which is
communication and as much of

help that we can get by people
trying it, giving us feedback,

supporting us.

I think very soon we're going
to roll out grants program for

different builders and you know
rewards are going to come into

towns as well for communities
that are doing good stuff.

And you know we really try to
give as much as possible to

those who are early and
supporting and pushing and

helping us build it out, because
ultimately we need.

You know we're not going to
replace the centralized

communication in the next 10
years.

You know we're not going to
replace the centralized

communication in the next 10
years, but I think we should

make a big statement about why
this is important, for it to be

owned and operated by the people
and not by big companies, at

least some of our communication,
to have that optionality,

because otherwise, if we don't
have optionality, that

optionality, because otherwise,
if we don't have optionality,

it's extortion against us.

You know, with the big
companies, but we need this

duality to have better leverage
on the value that we bring

online.

Speaker 2: You touched on
something that means a lot to me

and that's really kind of how
I've nailed communicating

anything in crypto to family and
friends is.

It's not that it's going to
ever just fully.

You know, what we're building
is probably not going to fully

replace the systems that we
currently have it provides an

option Like it's.

It's another path.

Like it's another path that is
available for people who have

certain beliefs, ideas, Thought
provoking.

Speaker 1: Exactly, thought
provoking, exactly, and it's's,

it's another conversation you
have, it's important, yep I

couldn't agree more.

Speaker 2: And what you guys are
solving, again, like going back

to the, to the, to the essence
or the backbone of what you guys

are building, is communication
and like that's how we evolve,

that's how things get built,
that's how things change,

absolutely.

So you guys are solving a
really big problem or tackling a

really big problem, and I'm I
couldn't be more stoked, uh, to

be partnered with you guys uh,
yeah yeah, really us too.

Yeah, it's, it's amazing man.

So uh, really grateful for your
time.

Glad we got to like get
personal chop it up on the

business side.

Uh, you know, it's just kind of
going.

Speaker 1: I hope I wasn't too
cerebral.

I always get this feedback.

You know, ben, you're getting
too deep too fast, uh.

Speaker 2: I mean, if you look
at what questions I asked you in

the beginning, that is not your
fault.

Speaker 1: I'm.

I'm enjoying every moment.

You know, you know Um I'm.

I'm also at Ben RBN on Twitter.

Hell yeah, tag me, think me,
ask me random questions, you

know Amazing.

Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, I guess.

Last question I have for you,
it's one of my favorites.

I stole this from from a
podcast that I enjoy, uh, called

invest like the best.

Uh, and it is what is the
kindest thing that someone has

ever done for you in Web3?

In Web3?

Yeah, I want to keep it
specific because he, you know,

yeah, I want to keep it specific
to this industry.

Speaker 1: The action that they
did is in Web3, or the people

that I met, yeah, web three.

Or the people were that I met.

Speaker 2: Yeah, the people in
web three, someone.

Oh, I mean if, if something
else comes to mind, and that's

just you know, and that's just
like to say what, honestly,

whatever comes to mind, uh, just
the kindest thing someone's

done for you.

Speaker 1: Maybe I'll talk about
a kind, a very kind of moment.

That, um, that happened to me
recently is that I went to the

FWB Fest in Idlewild and there
was a sunset performance by

LaRogie.

You know, larogie I don't, I'm
not a player.

He's a musician that's been um.

His works are almost like a
prayer, prayer combined with

some electronic motives, but not
aggressive, like very just

loops, and he's been, he's been
pioneering that kind of aspect

of also like spiritual machine
enabled.

Live performance of sonic
experiences, you know, sold

already, yeah, and there was a
sunset coming down and there was

a bunch of builders.

Live performance of Sonic
experiences Sold already, yeah,

and there was the sunset coming
down and there was a bunch of

builders and things.

It was just the golden hour and
you hear his voice and the

loops and there was a lot of
kindness and softness in how

we're all unified in that moment
.

I don't know if it was to me
specifically, but it's I feel

like we're all engulfed in in in
, uh, that guy's kindness and

you know, um, it's, that's a
great, I think a great moment of

kindness with, with people in
the, in the industry, you know,

and people in the and other
builders.

That that I thought was really
cool I love that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that,
yeah, I mean as someone who,

someone who enjoys, uh, yeah,
like I'm, I'm very kind of

psychotic about who I enjoy and
who I like, and I listen to it a

bunch, and there's just
something really special about,

uh, finding a lot of those
people and just kind of sharing

a moment, because I, I really
feel like that's one of the,

it's one of the most primal ways
to just enjoy one's company.

Is that a?

Is that a show, uh, where
you're surrounded by good people

?

So, um, really appreciate that.

Man, thanks for, yeah, thanks
for sharing that.

Uh, yeah, brought us well cool
man.

Um, yeah, so we've shared, uh,
how people can get involved in

towns.

We're gonna put all the info in
the, the show notes, in the

description.

Uh, gonna include it in the
tweet that we put out.

Um, but, ben, this has been a
treat.

Man, yeah, again, just want to
say thank you for for not only

donating your time, giving a lot
of of thoughts, these questions

, but also just it's so, it's so
cool to be partnered with you

guys and really can't, can't
wait to see what you guys do.

Speaker 1: Thank you so much I
appreciate it.

Speaker 2: Amazing man.

Speaker 1: Have a great rest of
your day, thank you Bye.

Thanks for watching.