Speaker 1: AI and deep fakes are
getting so good that I

definitely see in the next five
to 10 years, if there are

creators out there that have a
story to tell or like have a

really compelling way to break
something down, I can totally

see them using AI generated
avatars to create that content,

while keeping themselves
anonymous.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Curated, a
series of conversations with

the people shaping culture and
technology of the new internet.

This is a podcast series
produced by Schiller, the most

trusted marketing media and
consulting firm in crypto.

Before we jump in with today's
guest, we wanna make it clear

that this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be considered
investment advice.

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started today.

In this episode, I'm joined by
Jen, a wildly talented content

creator who's captured the
mindshare of the community with

her easy-to-follow educational
content around new protocols and

layers on the Ethereum
blockchain.

Prior to crypto, she had been
freelancing as a director and

director of photography for
immersive 360 experiences for

several large companies like
Google, samsung and Vice GM.

Jennifer, how are you?

Speaker 1: I'm good.

How are you?

I can't believe you just called
me Jennifer.

Am I in trouble?

Speaker 2: I was going to ask
right when I said that, because

I know you're Jennifer on
Twitter or on X and then you

have Jen here.

So was I right?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean.

So it's funny, the X handle
came about when I was like a

child and I was like let me just
combine like Jen, and then my

last name starts with a D and
I'll just stick it together and

I thought I was being kind of
clever.

Really wish I had thought
provoking on Twitter.

That would be pretty dope, but
I go by Jen, okay cool, all

right, I just wanted to make
sure.

Speaker 2: Yeah, just, it
naturally came off.

So no, you're not in trouble,
you're in the exact opposite of

trouble, like I'm really happy
to have you on here.

How are you doing today?

Speaker 1: I'm doing really,
really well.

I just stuffed my face with
some tacos and thank you for

having me on.

It's always like really fun to
get to like do these one on one

conversations and I always, like
you know I don't know how to

phrase this correctly, but it it
like kind of makes me giddy

that I'm like, oh, my god,
someone wants to talk to me like

and like hear like my story or
my thoughts on things like.

Oh, that's really cool.

Speaker 2: so I'm super excited
to be here yeah, absolutely, and

I the the podcast a couple of
the podcasts that I've been on I

feel the same way.

It's like oh, it's kind of nice
being asked the questions for

once.

Like this is kind of rad.

Someone has a genuine interest.

No, as I was saying before, I'm
pretty sure I found you through

Fungible.

He's just so chronically online
and I am too, and we just have

different.

We have a lot of places where
our communities merge and a lot

of interest, but there's also
parts and corners that we some

of us don't like.

We don't spend a lot of time,
we do a little cross-pollination

.

So, foundy, through Fungible and
like, have just been loving

your content ever since and I,
you know there's media always

has like a special place for me
personally because I know when I

first came here and we'll get
it I want to get into your story

here about maybe when you came
in, but there just wasn't a lot

of media presence, like in 2021.

It's just like you know, there
was like Kevin Rose and there

was like there was the, the
cyber brokers, but Josie, josie

Blaney did some media and there
was a few other people that I'm

sure like I'm obviously missing.

I know there was more than that
, but there really wasn't much.

And then you had Gary V.

You know it was like, and so
there was this huge gap of like

just people trying to figure it
the fuck out and like finding

specific niches and topics that
were really interesting, and it

was like to figure shit out was
really hard.

Back then.

It was you kind of actually had
to like critically think so

media.

I mean you still do, but like
media always has a near and dear

spot to me, and so I would just
maybe love to kick things off

with like why media, you know
like what made you fall in love

with doing this.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

So it's actually pretty
interesting because ever since I

was a little kid, like
literally like middle school, I

was like I want to go into film
production, I want to make

movies, I want to make TV shows,
I want to make commercials.

There was just something about
seeing how, like the camera

moves in different commercials,
like I would literally like sit

there as a kid and be all like I
wonder how they did that in my

head immediately, but just like
start trying to figure it out.

And so when I went into high
school, I actually, you know, I

was self-taught in graphic
design because I was a lonely

child in elementary school and
so I was like on online game

forums and you know, like
learning how to Photoshop so I

could have like a cool signature
banner that would go with all

of my posts, had like a cool
signature banner that would go

with all of my posts, and so
once I got to high school, I

actually was freelance graphic
designing and I made like some

sweatshirts, I would do some
posters and programs here and

there for the local community,
and I raised enough money to buy

camera equipment and I kind of
just took that and I ran with it

and I was like YouTubing, you
know how to make like these

artsy shorts.

I was watching videos on Vimeo,
and so it's just always been a

love of mine since I was young,
almost went to college for film

and television but unfortunately
couldn't afford it.

So I did a year at community
college and again you, you know,

18 strong headed, super gung ho
on, like I'm going to make

movies and I'm going to make art
that changes the world.

And around that time, virtual
reality was becoming a fairly

big deal, with Facebook
acquiring Oculus no-transcript,

and I was like, oh, I get it,
this is really powerful.

It was just, it was insane.

And so I dropped out of college
, found myself a VR production

company.

It was like I am self-taught in
Premiere, after Effects and

like a few of these other
programs, like I want to intern

for you, but I need you to pay
me to be your intern, but I want

to work here, and that kind of
like kicked off like my

professional career in content
creation.

And that was really cool
because ever since then I was

able to basically work my way up
from being the know the PA on

set to being the camera
assistant on set to eventually

being the DP and then, after you
know, doing it for like two or

three years and the space was
super small at the time.

I just started directing and
producing different content

pieces, got to travel the world
working on like documentary

series for like Google.

Got to travel the world working
on like documentary series for

like Google, vice and Samsung.

So, like you know, I was always
afraid I'm like fuck like, am I

going to peak at 21?

It's like that's like literally
what it kind of what it felt

like, and so I was in VR
basically from like late 2014 to

about the pandemic, um, and so
it's like my entire life has

been content and I think what's
different about you know, my

content in web 3 is like, for
the first time, I'm now in front

of the camera instead of behind
, which has been a really weird

shift, and like one that has,
like, quite frankly, taken me

several months to get used to
and like just comfortable with,

but like that's kind of you know
the long and short of it.

It's like I've always loved
working with cameras.

I've always loved video and
photography and, um, you know,

somehow found myself over here
and like magic, jpeg, internet

money land and it's great.

Speaker 2: It's a wonderful spot
to be in, like it's I, you know

, I think I, I think I tweeted
the other day is just you know I

had.

I was like I'm so glad I don't
have to explain to like people

in an office how my weekend went
, you know, and it was a

screenshot of me picking up my
first Deaf Beef edition piece,

Then it was the ticker rug and
then it was, like you know, the

screenshot from the made up
telegram that the person rugged

from and it's like I'm so happy.

I don't have to explain any of
this because it's just, it's the

extreme of everything.

Like you need you need, like
it's that everything must be

balanced, you know, and it was
always so awkward to do that,

but I'm happy that you found
your way to magic internet money

land, um, and magic internet
picture land, um, uh, and I I

just want to highlight because I
, I, I very much relate to the.

You know I, I did a little bit
more college, like I, I think I

finished halfway through my
associates, but I had a very

similar reaction.

There was like one court.

There was like through my
associates, but I had a very

similar reaction.

There was like one court.

There was like I remember the
last course I ever took, and I

was just said.

I just have interests that are
way more interesting than me

spending time doing this.

With the little free time I
have at my job, I don't want to

spend the rest of it doing this.

I feel like it's a uh, not as
good of a use of my time.

Um, and I want to go, you know,
play video games on the

internet.

That was like my thing.

You know, that's kind of how I
started.

I started creating content on
Twitch and live streaming and

playing video games and like
that was, you know, my little,

my little shtick there and it
was a lot of fun.

And then, yeah, I'm sure we'll
get into it.

But, yeah, the magic internet
land found me.

I, yeah, the magic internet
land found me.

I like to say I don't really say
I found it, because it was just

very similar to you.

Like I felt like I don't know
if you thought this, I'd love to

hear your take on it but I felt
like right around 2018, 2019,

like pre-pandemic, it really
kind of felt like Web 2 was

really peaking.

It was like, okay, you can
become a creator, but the

opportunity has gotten just like
almost abysmal.

You know, like the it just and
I just didn't.

I kept searching for like
something else.

I was like this is cool, I'm
down to, like I'm in this for

the long haul, obviously because
you know this is way funner

than anything I've ever done.

But yeah, it just felt like
there was something different

that needed to happen.

It just felt like there was
this inflection point of like

okay, where, where is the
attention going to move next?

And like, what is next?

There's no way this can be it
on the internet.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, it's
funny because, like and so my

friend, a very good friend of
mine, shilled me on Ethereum in

like 2016.

Like we were both running
around the VR circles and you

know, running around with our
fucking camera or like literally

.

Like imagine like 18 GoPros
like all tightly wound together

on like this massive sphere and
just like.

It was hilarious.

But she showed me on Ethereum
and like what I got from her

like literally, was something,
something about a blockchain,

something about Bitcoin.

Like literally was something
about a blockchain, something

about Bitcoin, something about
like decentralization and a

public ledger and blah, blah,
blah like future of finance.

Like that was like all I really
took away from that show.

So I bought some and I you know
we were joking before we

started recording Like I told
you, I have that Asian blood,

that Asian gambling blood in me
and I told my mom I'm like hey,

mom, like so-and-so, just told
me about this.

She's really smart.

Like I bought some.

You know, maybe look at it, but
don't put in more than you're

willing to lose.

Mom does not listen.

Mom like starts trying to like
day trade like Bitcoin on

whatever.

Trying to like day trade like
Bitcoin on whatever I think we

were on, like BitTrix, binance
and like BitConnect, I don't

know.

There were like so many like
kind of like really sketchy

centralized exchanges that like
hadn't been blocked by the US

government yet.

So, like that's where I was in.

Like 2016, 2017, like 2018 was
like Gotcha, like cool, like

magic, internet money Cool.

But like I'm going to go film
this like weird ass documentary

in like India, like peace you
know what I mean.

Like I never had like the desire
to be that kind of creator.

I think, like the track that I
was trying to like put myself on

was more along like the side of
like you know, obviously get a

ton of like commercial and brand
work under your belt, but then,

you know, start working on your
own pitches, find a producer

that's going to help, take that
to the studios, get studio

funding, like that's kind of
like the track that I was trying

to think on versus, like you
know, let me put my content on

YouTube, let me like upload
these shorts on YouTube.

I was thinking more along the
lines of like, how do I get the

biggest players in this space
and at the time it was like

Samsung, facebook, google plus
whatever Hollywood studio I

could attach to it to like fund
this immersive like experience.

Um might have it's so, like I,
like the creator bubble, I don't

think ever fully hit me until I
was in web 3 and I'm like, wow,

everyone is a influencer.

And like, yeah, the word
definitely now has like a little

bit of like a dirty connotation
.

Like you know, and it's not
lost on me, people will be like,

oh, hey, jen, like we're
looking for KOLs, or hey, jen,

we're looking for influencers,
and I'm like no, no, that's not

me, I'm just here on the
internet.

Speaker 2: I know, I know, I was
literally about to say KOL is

the new word for influencer, for
people who don't want to have

that dirty word being uttered
again.

Speaker 1: KOL stands for?

Like what Key opinion leader?

Speaker 2: It's the B2B term for
influencer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So they don't have to say
influencer in like a Fortune 500

company, they can just say KOL.

And it sounds like you know TAM
and it sounds like you know MAU

and it sounds like all these
other like little three letter

acronyms.

Speaker 1: ROI yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, it sounds
nothing.

There's nothing scummy about it
when you don't know, because

even in the very beginning, when
I started working with Schiller

, I was like, what the fuck is a
KOL?

Like like I didn't know what
that was until I, like I had to

Google it, um, but yeah, it's,
it's still not lost on me, that

like um, that still exists.

But uh, what one thing I've
noticed here is that I think

it's really interesting is a lot
of the people who are like the

best if you want to call them
quote unquote influencers or kls

or whatever the fuck you want
to call it is people that are

not trying to be that like like.

I've noticed that, like like
one of my friends, it's like d's

like he could give two shits
about, like wanting to be, you

know, a kol, but like he just
shares his honest opinions and

calls things like it is and
that's great, you know, um, yeah

, and and.

But he, like could give a fuck
less about being an influencer,

like that's not what he wants to
be, um, so I don't know it's.

Uh, it is very interesting.

So one thing that pops into my
head is where you're talking

videos, you know camera work
content in a space.

That is, you know, like half
anon doxed, maybe a little bit

more on the, on the, on the
prior, you know, I guess, how do

you see?

Maybe I want to put a pin in
that question, maybe come back

to it, but when it comes to, uh,
we're seeing a lot of growth on

like the L2s and super chain
and like pods and pods and all

this stuff is like putting media
on chain.

Zora has been a huge proponent
of that.

What's your, I guess what to
you makes sense for like the

future of media?

Like, is all media going to be
on the blockchain?

If so, why?

What are some of the most
interesting use cases or like

things that you've thought about
?

Because, like, I'm kind of,
we're kind of like in that boat

where we're thinking about it
and we definitely see it.

But, yeah, as someone in media,
we'd just love to know, like,

maybe, your thoughts on that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would
love for the space, long-term,

to move to a place where, like
video creators like myself can

easily upload to the chain we
forever own.

That it's not sitting on, like
some big companies, like you

know, cloud servers out in like
I don't know Mississippi or

Nebraska or wherever the heck
these data centers are.

But, like I think the reality
is is like right now, with where

we are.

You know, that's kind of like a
nice to have, it's not.

I think there are a lot of other
things that kind of need to

come on chain first and, like
you know, I recently started

fucking around and finding out
with Farcaster and Warpcast and

that has actually been really
cool because I'm like dude, this

is, like you know, a
decentralized Twitter and a

decentralized Reddit come
together and have a baby and

just like it's incredible, yeah,
but like for reasons completely

outside of Web3, like I'm
compelled as a user to use it.

But then it's like I put on
this like creator hat where, you

know, right now I feel like I
have to create, like my life

depends on it because it does,
like I made the choice to like

move into like this whole
creator media thing full time,

and so there is definitely
pressure, and I think what's

hard right now, when I think
about like where decentralized

media is, especially as it
relates to creators, is like, at

the end of the day, if the
platform isn't helping you with

discoverability, if it's not
helping you increase your reach

and your distribution, then it's
like it's just another platform

to manage.

And and it's like, quite
frankly, it's like I already

struggle to manage X for work,
youtube for work, and like I

barely post on my personal
Instagram account anymore.

You know what I mean.

It's like I'm not really
looking for another platform.

So I think, like, long term,
obviously, things being on chain

, us having, at the end of the
day, absolute complete ownership

over our content, is like super
important, but like it's, I

think there are other things
that need to happen before like

that becomes a really compelling
use case, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2: That does, and I and
I think I've heard like in yeah,

it makes sense.

And also there's a there's a
divided, a divide that I've

often thought about too, where
it's like's like okay, ownership

and distribution, or like
ownership and distribution are

like at the top of the list, but
when it comes to youtube, you

have one of those like they have
a massive distribution arm, but

you don't own what you put on
there and the algorithm

consistent, consistently changes
and the rules that are being

enforced consistently change,
especially when it comes to

videos being taken down, when it
comes to sensitive content,

what's considered that, what's
not?

So those are the two things
that I see and I've often

thought about.

I guess, how do you solve the
problem from a business

standpoint of allowing the
creator to own their content,

providing good distribution, and
you make money too, like cause,

like you know, the reality is
that, like, these platforms have

to make money to continue to
distribute content, you know,

and so I don't think we've
really cracked the nut on, like

okay, like what's the best model
that makes sense, and I don't.

I mean, maybe I'm being bearish
or maybe we just haven't seen,

you know, a good use case built,
but like, I feel like that's

always going to be a constant
moving goalpost.

Like I don't, I just don't know
.

Like I for me, personally, I
guess I'll share like my take on

what I think is exciting about
it is that, specifically with

Web3, it feels you know three,
it feels you know putting any

sort of media on chain kind of
feels just native, like it just

feels comfy to have like a
historical record of you know

things that I've done.

I've said the people I've
talked to, um the stories that

were, that were talked about, um
in each different, whether it's

a clip or of audio, podcasts or
video, um it just feels natural

to have that because I believe
in the EVM chain, you know, in

like for like a super, like I
don't think it's gonna, I think

it'll outlive me, like I
genuinely think that.

So it makes sense that you know
companies.

Like I never thought, put it
this way, I never thought

Facebook, I never thought
MySpace was gonna go away.

It almost seemed like too big
to fail Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But it did.

You know what if that happened
with YouTube?

You know, like, what if that
happened with Twitter?

What if?

So I always think about for
that purpose alone.

Maybe it's not, maybe they
don't have any distribution

tools but like, and maybe it's
just something you put on there

for provenance sake.

Maybe that's really the only
use case right now, I don't know

.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think,
like, as you were speaking, like

something that I started
thinking about is like,

censorship.

I know there are a lot of
creators out there that either

get accounts suspended or
content taken down with, like,

really no clear indication of
why, Apart from, like, you

violated the community
guidelines, which, like, is not

clear at all yeah yeah, yeah,
but at the same time, like I

think, yeah, I think like this
idea of like, censor, censorship

, resistant content could be the
thing that like bumps the need

for decentralized media to like
just be higher on people's

priority list, including mine,
quite frankly.

But yeah, it's just.

You know it's a tricky one
because at the same time we're

also like what shit coin presale
is happening right now?

Like attention is just so split
and you know, as a human, you

can only have your attention on
so many things.

But I should probably spend a
little bit more time on the

decentralized media side.

Speaker 2: It's just again, it's
like something worth thinking

about, like because there's ways
in which it does make sense.

But you also look at, okay, like
we want censorship resistant

media, like that's a pretty, you
know we want, we like

censorship resistant money, so
it should make sense that we

that sense, that we want that
with media as well.

But you know, then there's like
we've all seen the ugly side of

, of, you know, our industry.

What happens when that content
is censored, like not censored,

you know, and like I don't know,
there's there's part of me that

like, there's part of me that's
for that and there's part of me

that's like, well, if we can't
have it one way and the other

way at the same time, if it's
censorship resistant, it's

censorship resistant.

Or is there a middle ground,
maybe with what Farcaster's

doing, where you have the
protocol, the decentralized

protocol, and then you can build
different apps on top of it to

where, say, if the algorithm on
Warpcast doesn't suit your needs

, there's like 10 other apps
built on top of Farcaster that

may suit your needs.

I don't know Exactly, you know
but that seems like a cool

little middle ground.

But what does that look like
with media?

I don't know, maybe we're
getting too into weeds, but just

like things I've thought about
and interested to hear your

thoughts on that, because it's
yeah, so okay, I'm going to go

back to the pin that I put in a
little earlier In a space that's

like you're super into video
but yet there's a large part of

crypto culture is anon, do you,
I guess?

Do you see that changing in a
future, like maybe five to 10

years down the road, when it
comes to video creation, when it

comes to, you know, say, crypto
does all the things we say it's

going to do and there's like a
big wave of adoption in the next

10 to 20 years?

You know, have you thought
about, like, video creation in

the metaverse, like what that
means to you, or like, have you

always kind of thought about
kind of just videotaping like

the physical space?

Speaker 1: If you know what I
mean, yeah, I mean because I was

in VR, like we thought a lot
about the metaverse, Like it was

always, like you know, about
the metaverse Like it was.

It was always, like you know, I
always considered it.

I'm like it's a spectrum of
interaction.

On one end of the spectrum, you
have, like things that are

captured, that are capturing the
real world, and you can only

move your head around, and at
the other end is the metaverse,

where you have full, like six
degrees of freedom and whatnot.

I think like the whole docsxed,
undoxed thing, like I get why

people want to be private.

I chose to just be doxed in
this space because I had not to

toot my own horn or pat myself
on the back but, like at a very

young age, I was coming from a
pretty established career and,

like another emerging technology
and I'm just like why would I,

you know, try to bury that and
not?

This is very much just like a
continuation of my journey

exploring tech.

Like maybe I'm a masochist, you
know, like I don't know, but

you know, but you know.

I think the thing is is AI and
deep fakes are getting so good

that I definitely see in the
next five to 10 years if there

are creators out there that you
know have a

story to tell or like have a
really compelling way to break

something down.

I can totally see them using,
you know, ai generated avatars

to create that content, while
keeping themselves anonymous and

, you know, undoxed.

I also like get the appeal of
wanting to be anonymous because,

like I, for the most part, have
only met wonderful people in

the space and I've been very
fortunate and blessed in that

sense.

Yeah, but there are some crazy
ones, like to be clear, there

are some like psychotic ones
that will try to dox your

address, that will try to like
send shit to your home.

Like I had a little bit of a
run-in with something like this,

uh, last may, and it's it's
like one of those things that

it's like, yeah, I get it if you
have a family and you have kids

.

I probably wouldn't necessarily
be like let me go on video.

Speaker 2: Like you know, yeah,
yeah.

It's it's, it's really.

I mean yeah, cause like I've
chosen it's.

It's cool to hear your path,
cause like that makes sense.

That's a use case I hadn't
really heard of.

Like cause it's cool to hear
your path because that makes

sense.

That's a use case I hadn't
really heard of Because this was

like an extension of where you
were coming before.

It's just an addition to, and
not necessarily a replacement of

, like.

With me, my background was in
legal technology, being client

success.

There wasn't really like a
background there and for me,

though, I've always my face on
on Twitter and, like I've done

video podcasts in the past, but,
like I do like the idea of like

keeping my name private and
like that that is something kind

of cool and becoming the
pseudonym that, like I, I came

up with when I first started the
brand, that's actually allowed

me to become more of an
authentic version of myself than

you the person who created that
name, you know could have ever

been.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And that's where I
kind of like look at like this,

you know, and this weaves into,
like digital collectibles and

ownership of identity and all
these different like fun, fun

little things that we get to
play around with here.

So it's cool to hear like that,
you know, like one of the

reasons why you remained, like
where you remained, who you are

and why you show your face on
video, um, and the appeal of,

like what it could look like in
the future.

Um, so I guess the one thing I
wanted to ask you as well and

pardon me if this is, too just
all over the place, but it's how

my brain operates, um, all good
Is, you know, when it comes to

your future in media?

Like I just love to maybe know
how maybe this industry changed

the trajectory of that and like
if you still have some of the

same long term goals that you
had prior to coming into the

space.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty
interesting, like if you would

have told me six years ago like,
hey, jen, when you start

entering into your late twenties
, um, guess what You're gonna

like make videos and put them on
Twitter, and that's what you go

Like, that's what you're going
to do every week.

I would have looked at you like
you were a crazy person.

I like just walked away.

Like I never a crazy person.

I just walked away.

I never saw doing what I'm
doing for myself.

But coming into Web3 and like
so I got shilled on ETH in like

2016,.

Right, got my mom into it, and
then the 2018 crash happened.

And then we were both just like
, oh, fuck, like oh, we thought

we were going to be rich and you
know, know, I was young at the

time and I was up like a couple
thousand dollars and I'm like

this is a lot of money to me,
like I'm you know, I'm gonna

cash out some of it and my mom
kept degenning.

And then my god, mom gets
fishing, hacked, scammed,

whatever you want to call it by
like a fake finance email, she

ends up losing like 70 grand at
the bottom of like 2018 with

like holdings in bitcoin, eth,
xrp and like all of this stuff,

and it kind of just like left a
super nasty taste in like my

mouth, her mouth, and so like at
that point, I sold out of all

of my crypto.

Um, my mom pretty much got
completely out too, and so like

I really came back into this
space in like 2021.

And I came back with like one.

All of my productions have been
canceled because we're in the

pandemic and people are like
yeah, that quarter of a million

dollar project we were doing
with you is no longer relevant.

Like it is just like not
happening, which is totally fine

.

You know, like the world was
shutting down.

Speaker 2: It was weird.

Speaker 1: But I was kind of
sitting here and I was like I

don't think I'm ever going to be
able to afford a home in Los

Angeles if I don't do something
that makes my money work for me.

Like I want to start investing
and like exploring, like how to

meaningfully grow my money.

Oh yeah, what was that crypto
thing again?

And it was like that's what
brought me back into the space,

was trying to come in and do it
a second time.

But it's like I want to
understand the fundamentals,

like I really want to figure out
why.

Why is this the future of
finance Totally?

And once I wrapped my head
around this idea of self-custody

, this idea of decentralization,
this idea that, like, I now get

to choose what financial
opportunities I want to choose,

was like a really big aha moment
for me.

You look at like the outside
world and you just kind of see

how the outside world operates.

You're like it just becomes
very clear that like the system

was not set up in a way for most
of us to win.

Yeah, like it is.

When you come from nothing and
if you're building your life

from nothing, it is incredibly
difficult to do in a way that's

meaningful.

And once I started to see like
that inequality and I'm like I

don't want to, I'm almost
tempted to call it injustice.

I don't know if it necessarily
is injustice, but it's like I

don't know systemic.

Just like you know, the system's
failing most of the citizens

that are alive on this planet.

Um, it's really hard to unsee,
like if you were to be like, hey

, jen, you can go make a movie
right now, but you would need to

leave crypto forever and not
touch it.

Like we'll give you all the
funds to make like your dream

project, but you could, you
can't come back to crypto Like I

wouldn't do it.

Like there's just something
about being here that truly

feels like we're a part of
something that's, you know,

revolutionary and that can
actually truly change the world

knock on wood, hopefully for the
better in the coming decades.

And it's like I want to stay
and I want to be a part of it.

So the long-term goals have,
like, definitely shifted and,

like you know, it's one of those
things where, when you take a

moment and kind of like reflect
on, like where am I now and

where do I want to be, like one
thing that I think I've kind of

learned about myself and this
was actually like a pretty hard

pill to swallow was that, you
know, when I got into more into

tech, I was, like you know,
maybe one day I I don't think I

meant to be like a startup
founder, necessarily like, and

that was like just like a weird
pill to swallow, you know yeah,

but it was like once I realized
that I'm like I have I, I also

realized I'm like I am.

I've also realized I'm like I've
always been described by my

mentors and friends as a Swiss
Army nice, and I have a really

interesting wide range of skill
sets, specifically in media

content production and comms,
and I've learned a lot at every

single company I've been a part
of.

I actually think, like the
thing that would be the most

meaningful for me to do is to
figure out how can I position

myself in this space to help as
many incredible builders that I

personally believe in succeed,
and so I think leaning into the

media side of that obviously
definitely helps.

And then, on the flip side,
like the long-term goal has

shift, has shifted from like how
do I make movies, film and

television to like how can I get
myself situated where I can

eventually become an angel
investor and advise?

yeah so it's like sorry, that
was like a really long-winded

response to like let me tell you
about how my goals have shifted

.

Speaker 2: No, there was a few
points where like no, and the

more this conversation goes like
, the more you'll understand

that like that's exactly what I
enjoy the most.

I love those because there was
a moment, there was a couple

moments, where it gave me
goosebumps and specifically

around the realization, and I
think it's starting to go away,

but like, there's still traces
of I don't think it'll fully go

away, but it's not as
popularized as it was.

Like, say, you know, between
2015 and 2020 is like the hustle

culture.

You know, like be your own boss
and like you know it was a.

It was a very exciting time and
it was really easy.

You know it was a lot easier to
do it.

Then markets were good, markets
were frothy.

You know, like be your own boss
and like you know, it was a.

It was a very exciting time and
it was really easy.

You know it was a lot easier to
do it.

Then Markets were good, Markets
were frothy.

You know people were still kind
of figuring things out.

But you know, and I know he gets
again and we've both we both

laughed about it in the
beginning and I know he gets a

lot of flack in the crypto
community, but Gary V was a big

part of like my early content
journey, you know, and like I

consumed a lot of it and that
was one of the things he's like

it's okay not to be a founder.

Like you can be number one,
number two, number three at like

a Facebook and still live a
fucking amazing life and do

exactly what you want to do.

But most people aren't really
willing to like admit that, and

I think I had a very similar
boat to, to, to your, to your

story is that, while I enjoyed,
I will always and forever

cherish these one-to-one
interactions.

Um, I on the business side, I
just knew that I maybe didn't

know enough and it just wasn't
in me to kind of figure it out,

and so I just manifested a team
while everyone else is trying to

manifest, you know, like being
their own boss.

I was like give me a fucking
dream team that I can be a part

of and like I had an experience
with that in the corporate world

and I knew what that felt like
and I and I was like there's

gotta be the same quality of
people in the industry that I

love that can support me doing
what I love doing, and that's

literally how I found Schiller,
and it was like this kind of

beautiful like, but if I didn't
have that epiphany around, like

not wanting to be the founder,
who knows it may, that door may

have opened and I may not have
walked through it.

You know like it's really funny
.

Speaker 1: I think it's like you
know this isn't necessarily

related to crypto or anything,
but I think it's an easier pill

to swallow when you take time to
actually be reflective about

where you are in life and like
what is important to you, and

that looks different for
everyone.

You know, like I think you kind
of nailed, like nailed it with

like hustle culture being really
big like 2015 to 2020.

Like yeah, that that was me.

Like I would sleep in the
office, like I would I sleep in

the office, have a gym down the
street from the office that I

would shower at and then like
change into and then like go

back to the office, and it's
just one of those things that I

realized that you know it's.

I love it.

I think, because I'm first
generation American and because

I saw how hard my mom hustled,
like I will always have a little

bit of that in me.

Like I will always have a little
bit of that in me, but now, as

like an older adult, I'm like
yeah unless, like I am choosing

to like stay up and like
continue working on something

because I'm super excited about
it, like not on board, with

someone telling me like oh, this
is a urgent deadline due and

it's due in 24 hours.

Speaker 2: Like, no thanks,
right, right, Right, urgent

deadline due and it's due in 24
hours.

Like, right, no thanks, right,
right, right, yeah, I, I

couldn't agree more with you and
that's uh, it's interesting to

find that out, though, you know,
um, and who knows, maybe one

day, like I've had great
teachers and and, and great I've

been, I've been blessed to have
a great community of people who

are founders, who do know what
the fuck they're doing, and,

like I learned by osmosis and
who knows, maybe that one day

could meet, but like it's not,
like what I'm banking on, like

I've literally found, like I
found what I was looking for,

you know, um, to get me to a
spot where I want to go.

So it's and I, I just I like to
linger on that, you know.

Especially I'm glad that you
had that moment too, because I

just think it needs to be a
little bit more normalized, um,

outside of cryptos, just being a
fucking human being and trying

to survive on this planet.

Um, you know, it's like it's too
many people are sacrificing

their own happiness to chase an
ideal that maybe they don't

really want, but they're just
too afraid to like, not admit it

.

Um, yeah, it's hard.

I mean it's hard when you like.

Live in a world where you have
69 different social media apps

and ways to communicate with
people Like it's hard not to, so

I love that.

Speaker 1: I mean being a.

It's like being a tech founder
and even just working at a tech

startup is not for everyone.

No, like, some people like
literally just are not cut to do

it, and that's totally okay,
because the demands of it are

insanely different than you'll
find anywhere else in the world.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it is, and
like that was where that's like

that little niche where I found
like I fit in.

I wanted to be a part of the
startup culture, but maybe not

be the founder, and it's like
because I loved, you know, and

that's what, that's literally
what Shiller is, you know.

So it's like that's like
literally my utopia.

But you're right, and I'm glad
you brought this up because it's

something that like I'm
actually going to tweet about

this in a different format, but
I know different format.

But, um, I know, like I look at
crypto as like one big startup

like I, that there's this
conceptually like the like,

after working in a startup
environment before this, like

there's so many similarities to
what we're building here and and

anyone who's trying to build
something meaningful except this

is just on a global scale, 24
hours a day um, and there is

like a million verticals that
people are building.

But one thing I've really
noticed, whether it's

specifically on the art side or
the collector side or even on

the finance side, is people are
coming in, like people are

coming in with their basic skill
set, but they're not willing to

branch out to learn about the
rest of the ecosystem, and then,

when something like meme, coins
pop off.

You know it's easy to like shit
on it, but it's like that's

part of the culture.

Speaker 1: Like it's like Dude.

Memes are fully an asset class.

Like I don't know who that
angers, but like memes are here

to stay.

They've created a lot of
economic value for a lot of

people.

Like yeah, but I get it,
because I I used to be like that

too.

Like when I came back in 2021,
grinded on shit coins.

Um was always like kind of
embarrassed by it, you know, and

like I actually my first job in
web3 was working for like a

meme shit coin on Binance Smart
Chain that like they got to a

point where they started making
smart contracts and deploying to

apps and I think I was like
very naive and wide eyed of like

oh, this is going to be the
next big thing and yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Definitely was wrong.

There were a couple of things
that I couldn't change or fix,

that weren't like really in my
control, but you know, so I was

always like kind of embarrassed
that like that was like my first

job in crypto and like I left
it on my LinkedIn and that's

fine and all.

But then I was like yeah, like
stay away from shit coins, like

oh.

But now I'm like yeah, stay
away from shit coins, but now

I'm like no, the more time I've
spent in this space and once you

start to, I know everyone talks
about culture, everyone talks

about attention, but do you
actually start to break down

what does that mean?

And you've realized that
culture drives the attention,

attention drives the volume,
volume drives the traction and

it's like this huge cycle and
it's like meme coins are an

asset class and we're seeing
even more ecosystems.

I think like Avalanche now has
like a meme coin fund to help

meme coins launch on Avalanche
Like it's like you're not going

to find this anywhere else in
any other industry.

Speaker 2: No, I mean, I even
told my accountant I was like

next year's taxes are going to
be an absolute trip.

When you look at, you know
everything that's on whatever.

Speaker 1: 8949 that you're
going to file for me.

Speaker 2: There is some
redacted shit that I got into.

But you're right, though, Like,
and I like that.

I like that breakdown.

You know that.

You just like spelled out there
because if you look back at the

2021 cycle, it's very similar.

You know.

It's like you know, and there's
just a natural flow of

attention.

And like who?

I'm just sitting here, as you
said that.

I was like like when I first
got involved with just sharing

memes on Facebook and MySpace
and shit like that back in the

day, it's like never in my life
would I have thought that these

would have become monetizable
and be their own asset class.

It's the most ridiculous and
like but yet also not ridiculous

thing ever like.

Yeah, it's both uh, and that's
that's the paradox and that's

the best part about it.

And it's like what makes people
resistant to crypto.

But also, once they get it,
it's like holy shit, like this

makes.

This is just inevitable.

You know I will.

Speaker 1: I I also think like
I've been seeing a few takes on

the timeline lately that are
like you guys keep sending the

pre-sale wallets and you wonder
why retail people don't take us

seriously.

And I'm kind of like, actually,
on the contrary, a whole of my

family members that got into
crypto got in because they

wanted to buy some shit coin on
some obscure exchange and, like

you know, they fucked around,
they found out some of them

might have made a bag, others
like definitely got wrecked, but

all of a sudden, the next thing
you know, they're all holding

Bitcoin and ETH and at least
putting some money into like the

major alts.

So like if you want to sit here
and be like, tradfi won't take

us seriously because we're here
like shit coining.

I'm kind of like I don't think
TradFi is going to be like, yeah

, we're not passing the Ethereum
ETF because of all of the meme

coin trading happening on
ethereum and the ethereum l2s.

Like I don't think trantfi
gives a shit.

Like quite frankly?

Speaker 2: no, I don't.

I think the only person that
gives a shit is the.

Is the um?

The, the your typical vc
investor meme that's been

showing up on the timeline
everywhere?

He's got his vest and the
coffee cup.

He might be the one who cares,
but, like, not everyone else.

And you're right, Like I love
that you touch on that, because

I didn't really find my niche
until I found something that I

really cared about.

And in the beginning you know
what?

Like I came in here off of
people's 69 million dollar art

sale and I was like, okay, how
do you buy a picture on the

internet?

Like, why did you pay that much
money for it?

Like how the fuck do you just
like not right click, save it?

Like how do you prove owner?

Like all these questions happen
.

And so it's like the economic
incentive was the, was the hook,

you know, and I got bait.

You know I got baited by that.

But but then I stayed for the
friends and I stayed for the

culture and I stayed for the art
and I became an accidental art

collector and I found a little
niche that I can make a

difference in an impact.

And so I think you're you're
spot on.

Like when people find something
, even if it's only for the

economic incentive, not
everyone's going to become a

degenerate like you and me, but
like there's going to be a few

of them that are and a few of
them that may bring their

talents in, and a few of them
that may figure out like, oh,

this is like the weirdo
community that I was looking for

, you know, or this is the place
that I want to.

Like this is a new, a new path
for me to do something

completely different Because
very similar to you.

Like, yeah, you know, when I
think of like a traditional job,

it just like doesn't compute to
me.

Like after being in this space
for like three years, I'm like

there's no way I can do anything
else.

Like this is impossible to
leave once you figure it out.

Speaker 1: You're like, you want
me to come into the office at

nine and I can't leave until six
and I get like 30 minutes for a

lunch break.

What?

No, way no way, yeah, no, thank
you.

Speaker 2: No way.

So you know, like to the point,
like people like to say TradFi

isn't involved in this or like
they're going to TradFi.

So one thing I really I follow
a lot of DC, like I follow DC

Investor pretty heavily and like
I enjoy most of his takes, but

like the one thing that I think
TradFi truly gives a fuck about

is staking.

Speaker 1: You know, like the
fact that you can stake things

like and yield like that is like
the killer app for tradfi and

and then, like, you get like
some sort of like token in

exchange, but then like, oh, you
can then take that token and

like, lend it out and earn more
yield.

You just start to see how these
crypto rails does truly make

capital move more efficiently
than it does in the TradFi world

.

100%.

Speaker 2: And you can do it
after five o'clock Eastern yeah.

Speaker 1: If you really wanted
to, you could even do it from

your phone.

Speaker 2: If you really wanted
to, Totally totally wanted to

you could even do it from your
phone, like if you really wanted

to, totally, totally.

So this brings us to really the
heart of like, what you spend a

lot of your time creating
content on.

So I guess I'm curious.

Like you know, you spend your
time primarily around, you know,

just the more the defy and the
finance side of thing you know.

I think it would help to kind
of similar to like how you got

into the space of like, why
media like, like you know, why

did you choose to spend most of
your time creating finance

content?

Speaker 1: Yeah, so in case this
wasn't clear, I don't come from

a traditional finance
background.

Sometimes when I'm talking to
people who have triad five

backgrounds, I'm like I maybe
understood 10% of what you were

saying and I'll like jot down
some notes that I'll Google and

chat GPT later and it's like try
to wrap my head around it.

But basically I think I'll
start with like kind of like

getting understanding NFTs, of
like getting understanding nfts,

because I think this was really
the big thing for me was, um,

you know, I had friends that
minted board apes.

When board apes first came out
and I remember seeing it on

social media and on instagram
and I'm like what is that?

I don't, I don't really fully
get it.

And then seeing apes you know
sell for ridiculous amounts of

money months later I was just
like still don't get it, I don't

understand what a non-fungible
token is.

But then I actually took a job
as the director of marketing at

an NFT lending platform and it
was really there that I realized

that, oh wait, a second
Majority of assets that exist in

our day-to-day lives whether
that's our car deed, the title

to our houses are non-fungible
in nature, and so we're starting

to see this shift of like real
world assets come on chain, like

there are a lot of trad five
firms, like you know, fucking

around with tokenizing different
things and testing around on

different subnets, et cetera and
it was this was my big aha

moment was like, okay, if I
really believe that the future

of finance is going to be built
on blockchain rails and it's

going to be built using web3
technology, it only makes sense

that all of these assets that
come on chain are going to

probably come on chain and
eventually be tokenized in the

form of like nfts or some sort
of token standard now that we

have like 404s, like some sort
of token standard that takes

advantage of like the NFTs that
we know and love today.

Huh, okay, if all that stuff
gets tokenized as NFTs, like

what is going like how are we
going to really transact with it

?

Aha, nft finance and like that
like really simple thought

process is like what has made me
so freaking bullish on like NFT

lending, nft perps, etc.

Because, like you know, we can
sit and giggle and be like holy,

yeah, does that translate into
the future of finance?

Well, it's like.

Well, maybe when tokenized real
estate really takes off We've

seen a few loans on chain
against tokenized pieces of land

or homes, but it's like when
tokenized real estate becomes

the norm, I can use a
peer-to-peer lending platform to

get a loan.

And I think all of these
builders that are here building

within the NFT finance vertical,
all of these I don't want to

call them JPEG collections,
because I do hold some, but all

of these collections that are
here today that we know and love

, I think are really just like
the test case for what happens

when, like, bigger assets come
on chain, like the fact that we

have NFTs that have a value, you
know, over $100,000 is really

cool because it shows that it's
like, even with this, like you

know, jpeg of a penguin that is
tokenized, look at like the

value of money that's being
transferred, and it's just all a

battle case for what I think
massive market adoption will

look like in the next 10 to 20
years.

Speaker 2: I think you opened up
a door there for me, because I

think having the context of the
current assets we have today as

a use case or as like a test
case or as like the guinea pig,

like that didn't really.

I think that context window
like that really helped kind of

see, okay, like this is this is
like I hate to say it, but like

we are still so fucking early,
you know, and that, yeah, I mean

like to me, punks make a lot of
sense.

You know, I've seen a lot of
great punk loans.

I've seen a lot of great
squiggle loans.

You know, uh, people borrowing
against different.

You know, like, I know c drays
recently did an autoglyphs loan,

uh, you know, and pudgy
penguins, like it's, it's a cool

, it's a cool use case.

Um, it's got to be interesting
to like be able to risk, you

know, that high value of an
asset this early, you know, to

be able to do that.

But I think you're absolutely
right and I think once people

start seeing the value of it, I
guess that's, that's a, and if

you don't have a lot of insight
maybe on this side, like feel

free to just tell me.

But like, like, what do you
think I guess in your, like, in

the research that you've done,
like what, like what is

different about tokenizing?

Like an online, like you're
like a home deed online or a car

note or whatever, whatever the
case may be.

Like I guess I'm trying to like
figure out what is really

different about it.

Like I I just I feel like
there's a lot of differences,

but like I don't own a home, so
I don't know.

Speaker 1: I mean I it like I.

I just I feel like there's a
lot of differences, but like I

don't own a home, so I don't
know um, I mean I don't to be

clear, I don't own a home either
you know, I'm still.

I'm still grinding on my shit
coins trying to trying to make

that money grow, yeah, yeah, um,
but so, like the rwa

tokenization stuff is pretty
interesting, so so I think it

was Connor from Metastreet that
put out a graphic that I was

like, oh, finally like a better
way or a better framework to

look at these assets through.

But it's basically like a
spectrum of reinforcement and on

one end of the spectrum, you
have like assets that are fully

reinforceable on chain, that are
fully reinforceable on chain.

So, like you know, stick a punk
there, because a punk is like

crypto native and it's like if
it's in a smart contract and you

don't repay, that shit's
getting liquidated and there's

nothing you can do about it.

And then on the other end of
the spectrum, you have like

off-chain reinforce or off-chain
enforcement, where you know,

maybe a dispute happens and you
do have to go to like a court of

law to settle, uh, and so it's
very, very early still and

obviously real estate is a real
world asset that, like, quite

frankly, would still need to be
enforced like off chain.

Um, you know, if there is a
dispute, it would have to go

definitely down the legal
proceedings.

But, like, even with where we
are now.

Once you tokenize my
understanding based off of like

talking to Fabrica, getting a
chat with like Rupestock

on-chain one, you're kind of
able to skip over like all of

the crazy closing costs.

You don't need to wait 30 days
for your house to close, it's

just instant.

Once it's actually tokenized
and trading or you're lending

against it, that's fine.

And in the case of Fabrica,
because Fabrica mostly tokenizes

land, so I'm sure you've driven
around different states and

you're all like what the fuck is
all of this land?

I wonder who owns it.

Why aren't they developing
anything?

It looks like a wasteland out
here.

Speaker 2: In Texas there's a
lot of that.

Yeah, that's where I live, but
that land?

Speaker 1: doesn't that land
inherently have value?

Like, don't plots of land here
and there sell for, like you

know, $60,000 here, $70,000 here
, and maybe all you can do is

camp on that piece of land.

Or maybe you're lucky and you
have like a permit and you can

drill.

But like the reality is is, if
you go to any traditional bank

to try to take a loan out
against that land, they're going

to be like, yeah, this isn't
worth our time and they're going

to shoo you away.

So now, all of a sudden, you
have this like piece of land

that is worth something but,
you're not necessarily able to

do much with it because, like,
banks aren't letting you

leverage that as an asset really
in any way, or if they do, it's

going to take you months to get
approved.

Why not tokenize it?

Stick it on a peer-to-peer NFT
lending platform and be like I'm

looking for a $30,000 loan
against this plot of land for a

year, and it's like if no one
meets your terms, you're at

least potentially going to get
other offers that maybe will fit

with your needs.

You know what I mean, like,
right, um, I think that's a

really, really powerful use case
that is okay, that that really

helps, because, like this, this
is, this is territory.

Speaker 2: This is exactly what
I was hoping like selfishly, you

know to learn here because,
like I look at all this nft

fight stuff and I look at all
this NFT stuff and I look at,

like the finance arms, and I'm
just like trying to wrap my head

around like what kind of like
the way I found this space, I'm

like what kind of like niche in
this vertical can I attach?

What makes sense to me?

You know, and and and culture
makes sense, but like there was

always this like disconnect
between, like you know, like

punks, and then a home Like
there feels like that just never

.

Or even a piece of land Like it
.

Just it felt very kind of
abstract.

So I think that makes a lot of
sense.

And the way I'm understanding
this is that, like you know,

time is the most finite.

I mean resource that we all
possess.

I mean resource that we all
possess and you know, regardless

of how great or not great the
bank is, like you're right If

it's not worth their time to do
it, like they're not going to do

it, and then you miss out on an
opportunity there, or, you know

, two people miss out on an
opportunity because the

intermediary, who has been the
only way to really facilitate

that, is out of the game.

They're not going to play.

So, yeah, that makes okay, like
that, like for real, that

really, that really makes sense.

Speaker 1: The second question
go ahead oh, sorry I'm, I just

want to like add on to that
because I think, like the other

thing that we're seeing too is
like tokenized luxury goods

going on chain.

That makes sense, I yeah like I
advise for a company called

Kettle and they're all about
tokenized luxury watches,

whether that's lending and
borrowing and a buy-sell market.

Yeah, and it was one of those
things that it's like.

I looked into consumer lending.

The consumer lending market is
fucking massive, but there's a

lot of problems within it.

There's a lot of predatory
rates and it's like not only

with these online consumer
lenders, but also like pawn

shops, like if, yeah, you know
what I mean and it's like crypto

rails makes that more efficient
, it's going to give you better

rates.

Like there's just like a lot of
lot of these use cases that I'm

seeing that it's like okay,
while that to be what opens the

floodgates, um, especially on
things like the smaller things,

like luxury goods coming on
chain, etc.

I think real estate and some of
these other asset classes will

obviously require, you know,
regulatory clarity and like

clearance and things to be
recognized in a court of law.

But it's just, it's exciting.

Like what other industry can
you say like yeah, I think I'm

watching the future of like how
we're going to transact and

interact being built in real
time, and I'm seeing it all play

out on my Twitter or my X feed.

Like it's insane.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I, you
touched on a very, very, a, very

, a very meaningful part of this
industry that I love is like,

regardless of your vertical,
like you watch it all being

built simultaneously, and that's
kind of the.

What I meant like by the
startup is like, if you're not

curious, and all the ways in
which everything fucking

connects to each other, like
you're missing out.

You know, um, and that's that's
such a great point.

And like, to me, the tokenized
luxury goods, like I I look at

you know with where a lot of,
like, a lot of people, um, in

the early collectible
communities that own board apes,

like pudgies or you know some
of the early, you know assets,

like a lot of them are sneaker
flippers and like I feel, like

the tokenization of sneakers and
rare sneakers, um, that that's

going to be massive.

Like I feel like that would be
one of the biggest no brainers

to like make it make sense to
other people.

Um, the second question I wanted
to ask you, um, and it's always

something that, like, I've
never been able to get a clear

answer, um, and it's like when I
see these loans being taken out

, we're talking about, you know,
taking out a loan against an

asset, whether it's a punk,
whether it's a luxury good,

whether it's a pudgy penguin,
why would you want to take out a

loan, like what would like if
you were to do that in a

hypothetical world?

Why would you want to take out
a loan against, like, say, a

crypto punk?

Like what would you use that
money for and why would you

choose such a high interest rate
to like pay that back like?

Aren't you kind of like?

That's been like the disconnect
for me?

Speaker 1: it's like what do you
do with that?

You know like, why would you do
that typically?

I don't know this off the top
of my head because I'm not

looking um at the charts right
now, but crypto punks are.

I consider them like blue chip,
nft-fi collateral.

Usually the interest rates on
punks is not super high in

comparison to the interest rate
that I paid to take a loan out

on my little pudgy.

So I think it was G-Money who
took the million dollar punk

loan out against.

Speaker 2: I saw that yeah.

Speaker 1: Was it an alien punk
punk?

I don't know, because I was
just like that is really high

ltv and he's like this punk is
rare and I was like, oh, I did

not know that.

Um, I forgot which one, uh, and
I think the starting interest

rate was like 10 or something
like that.

It's for half a year.

Uh, he could easily take that
money and, uh, go lend it on

like a different lending
platform or stick it into a pool

that's maybe earning 20 yield,
so that way he's actually able

to take advantage of the
liquidity of his punk without

selling it and pursue another
opportunity where he's going to

come out in profit and he'll he
knows he'll be able to pay back

the loan and the interest and
still have money.

So, like, that's one use case
I'll give you.

I'll give you, um, a recent nft
loan that I've been doing and

like my use case for it.

So, um, I told you that.

You know I'm like creating,
like my life depends on it,

because it kind of is, because I
was like let me go do this full

time without any real game plan
apart from like a.

Twitter account.

It's fine, Like I'll figure it
out.

Yeah, so I actually had to sell
out of like quite a bit of my

crypto holdings to just like
keep myself afloat, a bit of my

crypto holdings to just like
keep myself afloat like during

during this like time, and, like
you know, I'm finally at a

point where you know I do have
more money coming in, which is

really nice.

So I'm like reloading the bags,
buying the dip, all that fun

stuff yep but I had an azuki
elemental, I had a gold bean and

I bought a little pudgy and I
just saw solana start to have

like some really fun meme coin
plays and I was like fuck, I'm

completely sidelined right now.

I literally have like zero
capital to deploy.

Like I can't bring any money on
chain, like everything else is

locked up and staking.

Like I need to figure something
out.

And I was like you know what?

I'm going to take a loan out on
my little pudgy.

Little pudgies had just gone
from half an ETH to one ETH and

I was able to get I think it was
like a $1,300 loan for 60 days.

I took that $1,300, bridged it
over to Solana, bought Popcat,

made a nice little bag on Solana
, repaid my loan, took the rest

of my profits and stuck that
into more staking.

And then recently again I was
like huh, there's like more

D-gen plays.

Oh, interesting, the floor of
Little Pudgies is up to two e.

Like I really like my little
pudgy, I don't want to sell, but

I could use some extra
liquidity.

So I then took a 1.4 eath loan
against my little pudgy, which

at the time was worth two e, and
I was like you know what if the

floor drops below 1.4 e I'm not
going to pay this loan back.

This will be a hedge.

So that's another strategy that
a lot of people do is the moment

they see NFT floors pumping on
an asset class that they really

like they might take a loan out
against it as a hedge, because

now, little pudgies, I think
it's like 1.1.

I don't know, I haven't checked
Blair in a few days, but it's

like 1.1.

I don't know, I haven't checked
Blur in a few days, but it's

like I didn't even need to sell
that NFT and I still got 1.4 ETH

of value from it.

Speaker 2: Totally so you're
still profiting from it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm still
profiting from it and I was able

to take that liquidity
immediately and go do other

stuff with it.

So it's mostly the biggest use
case to borrow is going to be

because you want capital to go
do something to make you even

more money, or you're sidelined,
or you're hedging, like.

Speaker 2: There's a bunch of
different reasons why to borrow,

but I think like those two are
probably the main ones, at least

for like the responsible you
know borrowers are probably the

main ones, at least for, like
the responsible, you know

borrowers, right, right, okay,
so, yeah, I'm sure there's like

quite a few degenerate use cases
that people will use that for.

But no, that makes a lot of
sense because it kind of goes,

just goes to show you like where
I spend most of my time and

it's more of like in the
one-on-one art world and it's

like in the gender of art world
And's like art.

If you just take away the
blockchain and what we're

building here, it's like it's a
pretty illiquid asset, you know,

like it doesn't.

It takes a long time to
appreciate.

It doesn't really move that
much, um, you know, outside of

some crazy phenomenon event, if
it's under 10 to 20 years, you

know, um, so that kind of shows
you like where, like, okay, like

this, this makes a lot of sense
and it makes sense like why I

just have never been able to
understand it for the life of me

.

Um, it's just like where I spend
most of my time.

It just doesn't make sense like
I mean, maybe some of the early

art box collections, maybe, you
know like, like I said,

squiggles make sense, right,
like punks make sense, like

those are kind of go both hand
in hand with collectible and art

.

You know it's uh, they they
spend a little bit of time in

both worlds.

So thank you for breaking that
down.

Um, that to me made a lot of
sense.

Um to like not only hear, like
how g money you know did his,

but also how, like literally how
you're doing yours currently,

and I think that, yeah, I don't
know.

I feel like that's the best way
to learn is people like

listening to people's experience
.

Speaker 1: so thank you for um,
for sharing that, of course, and

you know, I was gonna say like
this, this I don't know if this

is like proven out, like I mean,
like my point is like the

research I've done around, this
is actually like very minimal,

like I think this is just kind
of like my take on NFT

collateral.

I think NFT finance and the
types of loans and interest

rates and LTVs that people get
are very indicative of how

strong an NFT collection is,
whether that is like literally

the blue chips are punks,
squiggles, autoglyphs and like I

think those are like the three
main ones.

But then, you know, all of
those collections will have

lower interest rates, pretty
decent LTVs and longer loan

durations, and I think, like
even outside of NFT finance,

they're considered blue chip
NFTs, while, you know, like

something like a little pudgy,
as much as I love it, like I

think my latest loan was at like
36% interest for 45 days,

okay-ish LTV.

Well, I mean, the hedge was
pretty good, but it's like one

of those things that it's like
okay.

That signals to me strength.

It signals to me that hey,
there are lenders that are

willing to give me money against
this asset, and so I think it's

just like another way to like
measure and kind of keep a pulse

on attention.

Speaker 2: And you can make some
assumptions based off like yeah

, like, whether those, whether
the people who are writing

liquidity just genuinely think
it's strong, whether they may,

you know, have, and I like I
hate to say this, but like maybe

, and crypto, like it's easy to
to know, like insider

information gets passed around
all the time, um, and it's

really easy to like point the
finger, but like, if you just

look at the data on chain, like
it's like well, like you can

assume a lot of different things
, but it's all right there and

it's public and it's immutable
and that's a really great,

that's a great point you just
made there, cause I wouldn't

have like I think that was kind
of swirling in my head literally

while you like added that on or
like right before you edit it

on.

So it's cool.

I don't know.

This is all like.

I'm like I feel like I'm like a
three-year-old learning about

this, because these are just
questions that I've had like the

entire time.

Speaker 1: Like, oh my God.

Well, I'm just happy we're
getting to like dig into them

and hopefully it's helpful, you
know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and all of 2021
, with all the explosion of art

blocks, with all these things
that just printed money, you

know, um, and I just refused to
like get into it until I like

really understood.

It's kind of how I got into
nfts.

It was like I didn't I didn't
buy my first nft to like I at

least could like stumble my way
into an explanation of how

ethereum worked, to like a basic
person, you know, like, until I

could like maybe not fully
understand it.

They didn't have to to like get
it, but like, if I could, if I

could regurgitate a sentence you
know about it, about like how I

thought it worked.

That was good enough for me,
you know.

Speaker 1: I think that's you
being responsible, like I know,

as like the market continues to
pick up and trading volume is

crazy.

There's like jokes made about
like eight first, ask questions

later, and like there's
definitely a time and a place

for like that kind of attitude
and mentality.

But I think like, ultimately,
if you're spending money in this

space isn't especially if
you're new to this space ideally

you're not spending that money
without having just like even

just like a basic grasp what the
?

fuck, you're spending money on,
you know yes I think that eight

first ask questions later.

Speaker 2: We're not here yet,
but I I feel like by the end, at

some point in 2024, maybe 2025,
we will be there.

Speaker 1: But not, I don't know
those, those solana pre-sales,

I mean now ask questions later.

Speaker 2: I mean, I'll just be
clear with you.

Like my, I had a.

I've been sober for a little
over a decade and that was my.

There's a reason why I'm sober
because I've really tested out

the eight first.

Ask questions later and I'll
let you fill in the blanks of

like you know, without me
spelling that out, what that

looked like, it was like that
was the way I lived my life.

So I think there's a little bit
of me that's like, okay, we've

been there, we've done that, we
know how that goes.

Like, um, we're not gonna do
that anymore.

Um, and while it was fun, um,
for a time, it's not really

anymore.

And it was not.

It never ended.

It never ended.

Well, is what is the point?

Speaker 1: I mean honestly, for
most people it doesn't end well.

No, like you're right, you're
right, like there are two, there

are winners and there will be
times that you win, but, um,

definitely don't.

Don't fall into the whole.

Like grass is greener on the
other side, uh, trap no, it's

not.

Speaker 2: And like with me I've
really kind of I don't really

have as much capital to deploy
and kind of like the meme coin

season, the shitter season.

It's been really hard for me to
be sidelined for most of it,

but like the way I look, because
the times I wasn't sidelined,

like I got into this headspace
where it was like I would forget

to do basic things around the
house, like I wouldn't, even,

like my garage door was left
open for 24 hours, you know,

like just because I was just so,
like something happens in my

brain that chemically changes
during this time of year.

You know, and it's like I think
part of it's also just knowing

yourself.

You know, and like how you
operate and how you function and

how you like to make money,
kind of like what we were

talking about earlier, of like
what you want to do, like do you

want to be a founder, do you
want to be like number two or

three?

Or like do you want to be like
just the media person?

Do you want to position
yourself?

It's the same thing with this
like knowing, like your spending

habits and knowing who you are,
knowing how you want to make

money.

There's so many fucking
opportunities to make money here

.

Um, it's just usually not
always the one on the timeline.

Yeah, Exactly, speaking of
places, you're spending most of

your time.

A lot of your content is
focused on blast and I'd be

remiss if we didn't talk about
that a little bit.

In a world where L2s are
clearly here to stay, it feels

like, especially after 2021,
mania and into 2022, it's just

unless it's like again, like a
blue chip collection or like a

piece of art, I just can't see
people spending, you know,

thousands of dollars in gas fees
.

Speaker 1: Who knows, we may get
there Like we may, but I mean,

it depends on how rich everyone
who is currently here gets

between now and like.

Speaker 2: Pete Gaspi season.

Yeah, totally so like out of
all the L2s that are available.

We have, like you know,
arbitrum, we have, optimism, we

have you know, now Bass is
making a pretty nice little like

footprint out there and we have
Blast Out of all of them, and

I'm sure there's a lot more.

Why did you, like what really
makes you so curious about Blast

over kind of a lot of the other
L2s that have maybe been out

for a while?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so.

I think this is a few things I
think.

Number one we saw Blur come out
.

So for those of you guys who
don't know, blur is one of the.

It's not one of the.

It's like the primary NFT
trading marketplace.

On ETH, mainnet, like came out,
stole a ton of market share

from OpenSea and just like that
was wild.

Yeah, destroying the competition
.

Yeah, blur to date has, knock
on wood, has had like no

exploits, no vulnerabilities,
and I think that speaks volumes

to the ability that the team has
to execute very hard things on

a technical level, like
literally.

It was the first marketplace
where we saw a lot of features

get deployed that all of these
NFT traders had been asking for.

Like I don't trade NFTs, I like
fall in love with the picture

and then I'll back hold to zero.

This is why I also like lending
is because I have like a much

easier time being like oh, let
me take a loan against it,

versus like I'm going to list it
to sell.

Speaker 2: I like that Okay.

Speaker 1: So there was like I
like that, okay.

So there was like.

There was that like I think
when we look at the builders in

the space, you know, not really
fangirling, I don't know how you

feel about this but I also just
feel like Pac-Man is probably

one of the top 10 most
influential builders when it

comes to like shaping the future
of what, like crypto and

blockchain could look like.

Um, so I think that those two
aspects, just for like context,

were incredibly exciting to me.

Um, we also saw how much money
people made from like the blur

airdrop and blur farming.

So it's like we know that they
know how to do incentives that

you know work, um, so that's
like one aspect of it.

The second aspect was he came
out and said we're going to make

a chain where if you have
Ethereum or stable coins on it,

it's natively earning yield, and
like that's just really fucking

cool.

Like you were talking earlier
about how, like all traditional

finance guys care about is like
oh, staking.

I can stake this and earn yield.

And so now to have an L2, where
that is like built in and that

is like the primary selling
point and feature of the chain

and the ecosystem, is super
exciting.

Because now you have all of
these other builders, whether

that's Wasabi, metastreet and a
bunch of others that are coming

on, and it's like how can we
take advantage of this?

Like how can we help people
earn even more yield on top of

this?

And then it's like also, at the
same time, it's like how can we

rethink through how we've like
traditionally done?

Like NFT mints, like one of the
ideas that I was reading in,

like the documentation for Blast
, was like could we have an NFT

mint where the cost to mint is
the yield?

Like people deposit, you know,
0.1 ETH and like in order to

qualify for the mint, you have
to have like 0.1 ETH locked up

for 10 days and then you get
refunded that 0.1 ETH and then

your yield is what pays for your
mint.

Like that's pretty cool and so
all of a sudden.

Now there's this L2 where you
know, I could just tell my mom

like mom, we're going to open up
a MetaMask account for you and

we're just going to leave some
ETH in here and we're going to

see what happens.

That ETH is natively earning
yield.

I don't need to tell her to go
connect her wallet to anything.

She can, just it just becomes
like a high yield savings

account that you can fuck around
with.

You know what I mean and I
think like that is really

compelling.

So just from like a sheer, like
me being kind of a nerd and

fascinated by this stuff, like
that's what's made me the most

excited about Blast.

And then the other part, too,
is like I wasn't.

Like I wasn't.

I might have been here, I don't
know, but I wasn't paying

attention when, like, arbitrum
and Optimism came out and it's

like wait, there's this new L2
that I think has some of the

most compelling tech features
you could possibly have and that

is attracting some of the most
talented builders that I've

opportunity.

That comes around once every
now and then, because I feel

like there are a ton of L2s.

Oh my God, I'd go to VC
cocktail hours and they're

giggling about do we really need
another L2?

Right.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So it's like Blast
offered something different and

I think it has the power to stay
.

I think it has the power to
capture market share and mind

share and it already has for the
most part.

Like I'm seeing, in the same
way that you are, like I'm not

really into the finance stuff,
but like more the gen art, the

NFT side, the collector side,
has been where I have been.

A lot of my friends that are
also kind of in that same

ecosystem as you have bridged
funds over to Blast because

they're like oh well, why not?

I earn yield and I'm getting
some points and maybe I get a

nice airdrop in May.

So it's kind of like all of
those reasons combined just made

it seem really obvious.

I think like the other L2s that
I'm really excited about is

honestly base, because I think
just like the natural connection

to Coinbase and like having
majority of like US consumers

onboarded in Coinbase, coinbase
um, if they're gonna do defy

stuff, probably easiest thing
for them to do would just be

coinbase wallet transfer to defy
and like that's natively set on

the base chain.

Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, that
very long-winded answer sorry,

no, no, no, no, no, that's I, I
wanted that I, I I because

you've literally gone full, send
into blast and like that's what

I was hoping for and I was like
, okay, definitely wanted to to

get your thoughts on that, on
why.

Because I think the way I've
looked at it, um, it's just I, I

look at how many different
things there are now and now

that attention's things are
getting a little frothy again

and like people are like getting
silly again, it's really hard

to like know, like it's really
hard to just like pick something

and like learn about it and
research it, because it's just

you feel like you're going to
miss out on an opportunity.

Um, elsewhere, if you like
choose to put your attention on

one way, um, I guess the that
was what I was kind of looking

for, because I see, I see it
with base.

It's like you can literally buy
eth or usdc on bay on on

coinbase and literally just send
it to base like right from the

app and it'll just like auto
convert it and like that is just

extremely fucking bullish.

I guess the thing with Blast
that was like kind of like

holding me back is like looking
at the numbers and not really

understanding how finance works.

The one thing, or like just kind
of, yeah, the one thing I

bought I have learned from a lot
of my friends that I look up to

here is like if you don't
understand where the yield is

coming from, you are the yield.

And like seeing like a, a 15%,
please, please, please, please,

shatter, please, shatter this.

I'm so excited because, like, I
see like 15 yield and I'm like,

okay, we saw 20 with tara luna
and like we all know how that

went um.

So like I think there's just
some ptsd with like ridiculously

high interest rates that like
aren't maybe what most consider

normal or kind of like I would
say like under 10, you know, is

like kind of like a safe zone,
but like seeing that just on the

, on a stable coin.

That's why I'm like I don't
know man, like pac-man is the

king of incentives, you know.

Like one could argue because
like again I'm in the art side,

I'm gonna let you talk here for
because I know you have some, I

know you're, I know you cooked
um.

But like in the art side he's
also viewed a lot differently

than he is maybe on the NFT side
is that he destroyed royalties.

He's just the Ponzi guy.

It's essentially destroyed one
half of the culture here.

And so now, while I don't fully
believe that, I feel like he's

just building the product that
people wanted anyway, and that's

where, if it wasn't him, it
would have been someone else,

because the market wants what
the market wants and this drive,

so I.

But it's hard to when you hear
so much of that.

It's kind of hard to like stick
your head above ground again,

if you know what I mean.

Um to like see another
perspective, or to like hear

another perspective of like how
someone else, another

participant, maybe in a
different side of the industry,

views him, or like what he's
built.

But I will say, like what he,
like he is, he has built

something that has become the
meta that people like the, the

amount of mindshare, market
share that he took, or him and

his team took, and the amount of
time that he took it in.

It's hard to argue um, yeah,
for good, or you know, like,

we'll see how this all plays out
, but like that's impressive.

Um, so yeah, it just there.

There was some like, definitely
some like road blocks for me.

And guess what, though, like in
the, in the nature, in the

spirit of fucking around and
finding out.

I did bridge over to blast in
the very beginning, you know.

So I do have 0.05.

That's just sitting there, um,
so it is there.

I'm not fully against it, like
I just I bridged an amount that

I was okay with, like never
seeing again and just like

seeing how this goes, um, and so
here we are.

We may, this may be where the
doors fly open and I figure it

the fuck out, and we figure out
how to do it.

Speaker 1: So please cook, tell
me, yeah, yeah, oh well, um,

before I lose it, I I hear this
in a group chat the other day

when yuga was announcing their
royalties with magic, eden and

and like I get the whole like
Pac-Man, destroyed royalties

take.

But at the same time I'm kind of
like wasn't the whole point of

royalties was like pay
individual creators and like

actual artists Like I want to
pay, I am happy to pay royalties

on those NFTs.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to
pay.

Nor do I want to pay royalties
to a unicorn startup that's

worth over a billion dollars
according to their last raise.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1: So Fair, Fair point.

And I feel like most of those
NFTs don't even trade on Blur.

To begin with.

They're like you're still
buying it from like OpenSea, etc

.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah so.

Speaker 1: I just wanted to
throw that out there about

royalties, but I'm so glad you
brought up where the fuck does

the sealed come from,
specifically the 15% on stable

coins, because I saw that that
put up a flag for me and I kid

you not, I think I spent like
two whole days trying to figure

it out and deep dive into it.

I'm like in people's DMs, I'm
like looking at charts and I'm

like asking people way smarter
than me like what the fuck is

happening?

Right, right, so the native
yield on Blast, the 4% yield on

ETH, comes from staked ETH.

That's through.

Speaker 2: Lido, that makes
sense yeah.

Speaker 1: That's through LIDO
as of right now, which is great.

Could change in the future, who
knows?

There's so much like restaking
stuff happening, yeah, but now

15%.

It used to be 5%, but the yield
on USDB, which is the native

blast stablecoin, actually comes
from MakerDAO.

So I knew what Maker was, but I
did not really know all of the

intricacies and whatnot of how
it worked.

But basically, if you didn't
know, makerdao is like the

decentralized protocol and DAO
that is in charge of DAI, which

is a stablecoin, and what makes
DAI distinctly unique from any

other stablecoin in the market
is it's actually not backed by

fiat, it's not backed by US
dollars sitting in a bank, but

rather, if you had Bitcoin, if
you had Bitcoin, eth, even USDC

that you wanted to borrow
against, so like you basically

deposit crypto assets or
tokenized T-bills into MakerDAO

and then you're able to borrow
DAI, so your DAI is minted once

you put down this collateral.

So, as a result, dai ends up
actually being backed by this

surplus of collateral that
everyone has put up.

So that's how DAI is made, and
this is pretty important because

what happened was the market
sentiment.

Obviously over the past couple
of weeks has changed.

People are incredibly bullish
and I'm like not shitting you

when said I literally talked to
everyone who is like way smarter

than there's DAI right on one
hand, and on the other hand

there's USDC.

If you go to any lending
platform majority of them the

cost to borrow USDC you're
seeing interest rates anywhere

from like 26% upwards of 100%.

Speaker 2: Holy shit.

Speaker 1: Especially on perps
platforms, like there are people

who are like trying to leverage
long or leverage short things

and they're paying over 100% to
borrow the USDC to do these

leverage trades.

So, basically, so right the
market on Wow like deposit USDC

to MakerDAO, borrow DAI, go sell
that DAI for USDC again and

then go lend out that USDC, and
it basically just created like

this little loop and DAI.

I think this is really
important to note.

Like I mentioned earlier, dai
is backed by the surplus of

crypto collateral that has been
put up and things like tokenized

T-bills, and it has continued
to remain fairly well over

collateralized.

But within the reserves that
they have their stablecoin

reserves, like USDC reserves
just kept going down and so they

just realized they're like fuck
, people are kind of taking

advantage of this.

And so they just realized
they're like fuck, people are

kind of like taking advantage of
this.

We need to bring our rates in
line with the market.

So they passed this emergency
governance proposal that came

out closer to the beginning of
March.

That was like hey, we're going
to increase our they call it the

die stability fee to 15% and
the stability fee is basically

just the interest rate that
people pay to borrow, or they

increased it to 16%, sorry.

And then that stability fee
funds something that's called

the die savings rate and they
increase the die savings rate to

15% and they increased the DAI
savings rate to 15%, and that

15% is where the native yield
comes from for USDV on Blast.

So it's more like it's
reminiscent of Terra, because

DAI is like an algorithmic
stable coin, but at the same

time, it should be said that,
like it's a completely different

design than how Terra was done
and it's also the most

battle-tested algorithmic
stablecoin.

So in the future, that 15% could
totally change.

It really just depends on where
we are in the market and what

market demands are.

I definitely think.

Kind of just something to be on
alert and aware about,

especially if, like, the market
randomly turns incredibly like

bearish and then we just see
like a cascade of liquidations.

That's for sure going to
potentially be scary.

But you are not the yield fun
fact, but that is where the

yield comes from.

Speaker 2: Okay, so you could
you know.

Okay, so you could you know.

So you heard it here.

You heard it here potentially
for the first time.

Um, is that jen just explained
where the fuck the yield came

from, and you're not it.

Um, that, no, it's super
helpful, like I I, because I, I,

like you, I know of die, I've
seen die before and like I've

heard from random bits of
podcasts and things that I've

listened to and tweets that I've
seen, about the complexities of

die and how long it's been
around.

Like there, it's kind of hard
to fade it at this point, like

that's all I know about die.

I have no fucking clue how it
worked until you you know, like

I got a brief understanding
right there.

Um, uh, and and I'll probably
noodle on it some more but

that's incredibly helpful um, so
that's really interesting.

And like it's like, okay, the
15 doesn't feel like it's

forever, because I feel like the
way it was marketed with

teraluna was like it's 20
forever, like it was like this,

almost.

Like they're trying to like
guarantee this fucking absurd

interest rate.

Speaker 1: Well, and also like
part of I, for what was it?

terra usd was their stable coin
like that was propped up by

mostly the terra token itself
which like made no sense,

whereas like die, on the other
hand, is like propped up

literally by bitcoin eth staked,
eth, usdc again tokenized,

fucking t-bills.

You know what I mean.

It's a little bit better than
like oh, we actually made

another coin that is speculative
, that we've assigned value to,

and this is propping up the
price of DAI Like that's.

You know what I mean?

It's not the case.

Speaker 2: Right, okay, no, that
makes a lot of sense because,

like I know, I didn't lose
anything with Terraluna.

I was just.

I was too stupid to even like,
I just didn't understand any of

it.

So I'm like you know what.

Speaker 1: I don't have enough
capital you just got whiplashed

around like the rest of us, Like
what is happening.

Speaker 2: That one I was happy
to be sidelined on.

Like I was like okay, that one.

After seeing the rise and fall
of it I was like totally okay

with was sitting that one out.

That was I'm sure I missed out
on some opportunity, but the

reality is I probably wasn't and
I probably would have like

gotten fucked because I would
have just seen only the

opportunity but not how this
could go wrong and like not

understanding where this shit
came from.

Just I, yeah.

So anyway, super, super helpful
.

You may turn me into a blast
bull by the end of this, um so I

go?

I don't know, but let's go, I'm
here for it all I know is that I

have eth on there and I did try
to take it out at a certain

point and saw there was like a
14 day withdrawal period.

I'm like you know what we're
not going to try that, we're

just going to keep in the
ecosystem and we're going to

figure it the fuck out um so I
do want to say there is, if you

ever do need that liquidity, um,
there are defy bridges like

protocol bridges that you can
use.

That will bridge it for way
cheaper and much faster okay,

all right, that actually is
helpful, but I think I've

already made my decision that,
like I still like I don't need

it right now, but we'll, we'll
figure it out.

Um, well, cool, so we are
coming up on.

Well, no, we have literally
passed an hour and a half, so

I'm pretty good with like
wrapping it up here, but I

really appreciate like all of
the things that we talked about.

I think we ran the gamut on
your story and the space and

your interests and things that I
didn't fucking know and got to

ask like left curve questions on
that I've been wanting to ask

for a long time, you know and
that's again one of the reasons

like I've always just enjoyed
your content is like you have

this ability to take complex
topics, like things that most

people are scared about, and
make them into like digestible,

like things that people can
understand.

So I just want to like double
down and like say thank you for

doing that with me for like an
hour and a half.

Speaker 1: I really appreciate
that, oh my God.

Well, thank you for like having
me and asking me questions.

I really like this was a super
fun conversation.

I think, like as long as you
found it helpful, that's like

all that really matters to me,
and hopefully the folks that are

listening in found it helpful
because, like guys like I know

this, this stuff is fucking
crazy.

For a lack of better words,
like I don't know how else to

say it and like excuse the
profanity, but it's like we

exist in such an insane space
and I and I totally get how it's

overwhelming and it sometimes
feels like too much, because I'm

right there with you Like I am
still by no means an expert, I

am still fucking around and
finding out, and so like just

the fact that you value how I
break things down and what I had

to share here just means the
world.

So thank you for that.

Speaker 2: Absolutely,
absolutely and and I guess we'll

wrap it up with, like with one
other thing here I know we're

going to be doing some exciting
stuff in New York.

This will definitely come out
after those those exciting

things.

So I would love to maybe know,
you know with you, or Remant

Reality, like what's kind of on
the horizon for you, like what's

you know?

Is it, you know, just diving
deeper into the L2 ecosystem,

into Blast?

Is there any new kind of
projects or things that you're

working on?

We'd love to know that, yeah.

Speaker 1: So Remit Reality is
kind of like the brand that

Dalton or War Daddy Capital and
I created to kind of house all

of our content under because we
have so many interests, like

obviously for both of us like
75% of our attention and like

time spent is definitely on the
blast ecosystem.

But we're incredibly excited
about Solano, we're incredibly

excited about Bitcoin, defi,
things like Warpcaster on base,

and so, like, remint is the
brand that houses both of our

content and we also do like a
weekly video podcast where we

cover all of these things and
it's nice because it's also a

force function for us to make
sure we stay on top of our

research.

I love that.

So, really like for us we're
just going to be heads down

trying to put out as much banger
video content as we can.

That's like helpful and like
just being you know more in that

like growth mindset of like how
can we take some of these

systems that we've created for
our own content creation process

and like really scale that,
because you know right now, like

him and I do everything and
like edit all of my own videos

and it's just like we we just
want to get it to a point where

you know I'm hopefully not
staying up till two 30 in the

morning editing my own video,
yep.

Speaker 2: I.

Speaker 1: I relate to that more
than you know you know I mean,

yeah, you're a man of many hats,
so I bet you do.

Speaker 2: Yes, there's a lot of
things that you just make

happen because it needs to
happen and there's no one else

to make it happen but you, and
that's just the nature of it.

So, yeah, I definitely
empathize with that hustle and

love what you guys are doing
there, so I think it's a good

spot to wrap it up.

Yeah, so I think it's a good
spot to wrap it up.

Yeah, so just hang out for a
little bit.

We're gonna let this thing
finish uploading and then we'll

do a little sign off, but I hope
you have a great rest of your

day, jen let's go.

Speaker 1: Thank you for having
me again you got it you.