Speaker 1: The rise of AI is on
par with something as seismic as

the development of spoken
language or the advent of

written literature or movable
type or any of these kind of

profoundly game changing moments
in history that changed not

just like logistical things, not
incremental changes here and

there, but they actually upended
the way that we communicate and

tell stories and the way that
we understand ourselves and they

really shaped consciousness,
and I think that's really what's

at stake.

That's the big picture view of
what's happening with AI is that

it really is changing
everything we know about

creativity and originality and
what it means to be human.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Curated, a
series of conversations with

the people shaping culture and
technology of the new internet.

This is a podcast series
produced by Schiller, the most

trusted marketing media and
consulting firm in crypto.

Before we jump in with today's
guest, we want to make it clear

that this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be considered
investment advice.

I am your host, buna, and today
I'm joined by Sasha Stiles, a

first-generation comic American
poet, who's been collaborating

with AI since 2018.

A graduate of Harvard and
Oxford and co-founder of the

literary collective Diverseverse
, sasha's practice explores the

question what does it mean to be
human in an ever-evolving

post-technology world?

She's co-authored books with AI
, her work is studied within

institutions across the world
and she's partnered with brands

like Bang Olufsen and Gucci GM.

Good afternoon, good evening,
natasha.

How are you or Sasha?

Why did I say Natasha?

Oh my God, I'll keep that in
for those.

Speaker 1: That's pretty close.

Speaker 2: I still mess it up
every time, so we don't edit

that out.

We'll keep that in, because we
do a little learning in public.

Speaker 1: I also love that you
said morning, good afternoon,

good night, because I have no
idea what time it is.

I think we've all been
traveling so much and working so

much that no one knows where we
are or what time.

It is All very fair.

Speaker 2: You're right, and I
mean also with the recent I

guess you could call it froth
and excitement and just natural

interest around the space.

Time is becoming a flat circle
again and it's becoming pretty

useless and it doesn't really
make sense anymore.

That's typically how we know,
how I know things are starting

to at least turn around for a
moment in time.

So yeah.

Yeah, well, it's great this, uh,
I've, like I said before the

recording, long time admirer,
first time caller, you know, um,

really happy to have you on.

Uh, it's been, it's been cool
to watch an art form that I

historically you know, I'll just
be super transparent,

especially since 2021.

I just didn't even think of
poetry as like fine art.

And I think after hearing Anna
Maria back in 2021, kind of

reading her poems in public on
Clubhouse, you know, I was like,

oh cool, like I know nothing
about this, but she is really

passionate about this, and then
that led to me finding the verse

verse and finding you and
really like diving down the

rabbit hole of, like what all
you've been doing with ai and

technology and, uh, poetry and
the combination of the two, and

post-human, you know uh, trans,
you know uh, post-human eras and

, and you, you have there's a
lot of things you can talk about

that there's a part of me that
never really found the right

setting or environment to talk
about, like I, I've always

enjoyed, um, especially as a kid
.

I kind of always enjoyed that
cyberpunk type of like half

human, half machine type of
thing.

I'm a big fan of the cyberpunk
game, um, but I always felt.

I'm a 90s kid, but I always
felt that we were never going to

get there.

It just until there was.

So the technology at least at
my time, or like at least as I

was growing up, it just seemed
like it didn't exist for the

longest time, you know.

And now it does.

Speaker 1: That's so interesting
.

Well, first of all, thank you
so much for having me on and

it's so nice to hear that.

You know you have had such nice
conversations with dear friends

like Ana Maria and Sofia Garcia
and you know I really respect

and admire them so much and they
speak so highly of you, so it's

really nice to be able to have
this chat, had this chat and

yeah, I think you know a lot of
people don't think of poetry as

being part of the art world in
that sense and a lot of people

don't think of poetry as being
sort of relevant to technology

or AI at all.

So I think, in a lot of ways,
you know there's a big element

to what I do and what we've been
doing at Diverseverse and you

know really what a lot of our
fellow poets on the blockchain

are doing which is to bring
poetry into unexpected places

and to maybe push it into
slightly new directions and kind

of test the limits of the way
we normally think about poetry

and literature at large.

Fun getting to do that and
really fun to sort of operate in

a more experimental mode and,
you know, really grateful to

have this place, this community,
which is so warm and welcoming

and receptive to the kinds of
adventures that we're trying to,

you know, undertake with this
amazing, you know, poetic

tradition.

The other thing that you just
made me think, though, which I

wanted to sort of respond to and
like, maybe see where this

conversation goes.

But like this, you know, this
idea of the cyberpunk and sort

of thinking about a lot of what
we're talking about now is sort

of, you know, being in this
sci-fi bucket To me.

What's really sort of
interesting, I think, for me,

considering the transhuman and
the post-human, is putting it

into context of the many other
sort of moments in human history

that have radically altered
what it means to be human and

that have really changed the way
we move through the world, and

that goes all the way back to
the invention of technologies

like the hand axe or, like you
know, the, the, the first use of

fire and cooking, which you
know has a huge impact on um, on

biology and and cognition and
all these other things that have

really shaped consciousness.

So I feel like, in a way, a lot
of what I've been so interested

in does feel very forward-facing
and kind of speculative, but it

also has a very deep-rooted
history right, and I think

that's for me like that's the
really intriguing part is to

kind of look at this long mark
of, you know, evolution of

consciousness, evolution of
language, evolution of what it

means to be human, and to kind
of, you know, grapple with the

fact that what we think of as
purely human or purely, you know

, analog, purely flesh and blood
, is actually, you know, quite

cyborgian and has been for a
really, really, really long time

.

And that's something that I, you
know, I'm fascinated by and I'm

really just intrigued and
grateful to have poetry as a way

to kind of wrestle with those
ideas and probe them further

yeah, there's a lot, there's a,
there's a, there's a few places

we could take that, uh, and I
think, yeah, I'm trying I'm

trying to figure out where I
want to, where I want to go with

that, because the the first,
you know, it's one of the things

I see constantly, whether it's
on the timeline or whether it's

in social circles, with some of
my friends outside of the

community.

Speaker 2: Um is is the if I
can't, you know it's this, this

is, uh, over, I guess maybe it's
like an over sensationalized

viewpoint of like what analog is
, and like analog equating, like

analog equaling human being,
you know, and it's like there's

this kind of obsession to say,
hey, this is what it means to be

human.

This, these are human-made
devices.

They're physical.

I can touch them, I can hold
them in my hand.

I've had this, you know, chat
with a friend just about

cryptocurrency in general.

You know where he's like I
don't.

He's like I just don't grasp
the concept of like NFTs as well

, like, if I'm not looking at a
picture in a physical frame, I

don't view it as real um, and I
think you know that's a common,

that's a common um, you know
argument, and I think it's

something that is not really
talked about too often.

Uh, because I mean, here's my
take on it is that it feels, I

mean it's humans just are not
wired for change.

Number one, you know, like we
just don't.

We don't like change, we like
to sit in our own, we like to

find our comfort zone because,
granted, especially the way I

view being human today is very
different than it was to be a

human when my parents were alive
or not.

My parents were alive, but my
parents, like were kind of in

the same boat or like coming up
or like trying to make it yeah,

um, so I think a lot of it just
it has to do with fear and it's

it's interesting that just made
me think of this is that what we

see on twitter and what we see
in headlines is often as far

it's really as far as people go
when it comes to learning about

something new.

They don't.

A lot of people don't and myself
included before I found this

industry have had a hard time
thinking for themselves, and

it's so easy to not think for
yourselves when we have so many

different places feeding us
information.

But to the point that the long
winded point that I'm making

here is that the most impactful
moments I've had with people are

through conversation, are with
framing it in a way that makes

sense to the reader or that
makes sense to the person that

maybe have the interest or maybe
has the fear and kind of

tailoring it to them.

And what that is really is
language whether it's written,

whether it's spoken, really is
language, whether it's written,

whether it's spoken, whether
it's you know, and that's that

to me is really where I've, at
least personally, on a very

small scale in my personal life,
have been able to make the

largest change or, I guess, the
biggest impact over a period of

time.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's
fascinating.

I think, like the kernel there
that you know really stands out

is just thinking about language,
kind of in the context of

everything else we've been
talking about.

That I'm doing as a poet.

It really has to do with
wanting to explore language, and

wanting to explore language
from maybe more of a

philosophical standpoint or from
kind of a meta perspective,

right, and thinking about what
language does for us, what it

means for us, what we use it for
and why.

And so I think that is a really
good way of kind of bringing

into focus why I think poetry
and technology actually are

really well suited to one
another.

You know, even though a lot of
people sometimes see the work

I'm doing and say, like well,
poetry and another way, what

you're saying is so true that
language is something that kind

of floats between the digital
and the physical in the way that

a lot of these digital artworks
do, in a way that the metaverse

does, in the way that virtual
realities do, and even in the

way that, like the internet does
, because we think're so used to

seeing things written and
scripted now, like language

originated in the body and it
emerged as sound and was this

very visceral, palpable, very
fleshy, human, you know thing um

, and has sort of become over
time something that is much more

ephemeral and something that we
can encode and that becomes

like a very light data file.

We could just, you know,
continue to reproduce as much as

we want, and I think to me,
like it's a very um powerful

metaphor, then, for this
condition of digital duality

that we all are kind of living
in, where we're both.

We're both flesh and blood and
we're these visceral creatures,

um, but at the same time, like
we are very virtual and we're

kind of living in many different
places at the same time.

And you know, we're sitting
here at our computers while

we're traveling, you know, from
new york to austin or you know,

around the world, and I, I think
, like, for me, language is, is

is very much that Um, and so
it's been sort of like a perfect

, uh way to to help me sort of
concretize and think about, um,

my relationship with the
technological and with the

digital is to kind of think
about my relationship to

language, and it sort of helped
me, um, understand a little bit

more about what it means to sort
of struggle with, you know,

with this constant liminality
between the physical world and

this alternate universe, were
saying that is, you know, number

one how would you define
post-human, like a post-human

era?

Speaker 2: And number two do you
think we're already there and

maybe just in the early stages?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

So I think for me and the
terminology is super important,

so I really appreciate that
question For me, post-humanism

really has to do sort of with
decentering the human right and

really sort of thinking about
the spectrum of intelligences,

the spectrum of, you know,
sentiences that are also out

there in the world around us,
and to sort of push back against

this anthropocentric model that
we're so embedded in and to

kind of start recognizing our
place on this continuum of many,

many, many, many other
creatures and many other ways of

thinking and being and seeing.

And I think that that's
different from maybe, what a lot

of people think at first.

When you think about
post-humanism, um, there's

definitely like a very sort of
dystopian tone to it and this

idea of, you know, humanity
being replaced, humanity being

obsolesced, um, which is
implicit in that word and you

know, there, there obviously
like is, is a sense in that of

of loss and of things that were
sort of you know, um, that were

at risk of um, of saying goodbye
to.

But I also think there's
something really beautiful about

the idea that you know there's
a lot of a lot of the things

that are that are wrong in lot
of a lot of the things that are

that are wrong in the world
today.

A lot of the things that are,
you know, causing dire

consequences around the planet
are human made or human caused,

and a lot of it is because we've
sort of put ourselves at the

center of things and we've kind
of, you know, seen ourselves as

the highest consciousness on the
planet.

And so there is something to me
that it's very, actually

optimistic and very important
about recognizing that human

consciousness is not the end,
all be all, and that, you know,

there are other ways of thinking
and being and moving through

the world, and in fact, a lot of
the other creatures and forces

on the planet and elsewhere have
been around for a lot, lot

longer than us and are doing
things in a really sophisticated

way, even though we may not
recognize them as being

sophisticated.

So to me, like that's kind of
what I think about and it also

like relates to the fact that in
my work I, you know, obviously

I do a lot with artificial
intelligence and with

generativity and with code, but
I also think quite a lot about

plant intelligence and I think a
lot about biotech, and a lot of

my work actually involves
elements of nature and sort of

thinking about regenerative
technology as well.

And I think all of that is
because it's you know, it's this

a deep rooted interest for me
to think about these

alternatives, intelligences, or
these amalgamated intelligences

that exist outside the spectrum
of human intelligence.

And to me, that's that's what I
think about when I'm thinking

about, um, the post-human and
the post-human era yeah and and

specifically when it comes also
to these technologies.

I think you know what's
interesting on that um, on that

thread, is that the recognition
of what intelligent systems you

know, these machine learning
systems, can do is kind of the

gateway to recognize the way
that thinking, the way that

processing and analysis and
communication can happen outside

the human imagination right.

So I think that's why this
moment is such an important one,

and it's not a coincidence,
probably, that the rise of

artificial intelligence is
coming alongside the rise of

interest in things like interest
in the mycelial network and the

wood white web and the way that
plants can also communicate

with one another.

I think it's all kind of part
and parcel of this growing

awareness of what's going on
outside our myopic view of

things.

Speaker 2: I always love human,
like I, like it's so fun to be a

human and it's all it's.

It's like a, it's like a great
like we are so contradictory of,

of a lot of things Like, and we
, we contradict a lot of things

that we, that we stand for and
against and oftentimes as a

collective, like there's this
while it's not said um, I'm glad

you said it is, it's like like,
in my opinion, rather a vein of

us to think that, like, we're
like the alpha and the omega of

everything, we're like the
beginning and end of it all, um,

and and I myself, obviously,
you know, get caught up in

thought patterns like that or
like think that, uh, because

what we do is it's not to
discount what humanity has done

and, in spite of some of the
things that we've not done, well

, we've also been able to get
humanity to this point where you

know we're at today and,
honestly, if it hadn't, I often

think about if I was, like born
in the 1800s, you know, with

like my born, exactly how I was
right now, in that time I

wouldn't survive.

You know, um, and like there's
the, it's, it's, it's such a

nauseating and kind of just
terrifying thought to think

about.

Like what if this creative
intelligence or whatever this

you know, higher being rolled
the dice and that was like the

dice that that landed, um, and
now it's what I was given, um as

a, as a?

You know, higher being rolled
the dice and now it was like the

dice that that landed, um, and
now it's what I was given, um as

a, as a.

You know, like the cards I was
given um.

So I I am all for, and I think
that's what excites me the most

about this era that we're in,
and really kind of like

threading the first part of like
my statement of me finally

being excited that we are not
quite there, but like entering

into the world.

That I kind of feel is made for
someone with my interest.

You know like it's a very it's
more technological than analog.

You know it's more it's more
digital than analog and um, I

I'm very much of because and and
simply I don't think I really

had the experience, uh and the
um, just the like, just the,

just the emotional intelligence
to really think about it this

way until I got sober, but um,
there was a.

That was my first experience
with like we're not it Like.

I've had too many experiences
to like disprove that we are

like the end all be all of
everything, um, and so I just

find the realm of the unknown
and the spiritual and the you

know now in you know large
language models, um to be just

utterly fascinating.

Um, cause I think it's
rethinking our you know at least

my relationship to technology.

I mean, even just yesterday I
it's so wild as a society how

we've we've come closer together
in a lot of ways, but we've

also separated out in a lot of
different ways as well.

Like it's becoming very much
like if it's not, you know, if

it doesn't have anything to do
with how I either make money or

like a great you know a close
friendship that I had in the

past, we have to like schedule
time for shit like this.

Like it's never like a just
pick up the phone and call

someone anymore, um, so I've
actually used chat gpt to like

talk through some some things
that are going on in my head and

it's really it's been
incredibly helpful, um, so I

think it's, I think we're at the
cusp of this and it's really

it's been incredibly helpful.

So I think it's.

I think we're at the cusp of
this and it's exciting for

someone like me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

I mean something that I've been
thinking about a lot for, you

know, for many years now, as
I've been working with AI and

kind of also watching this
progression to these newer and

more advanced language models is
the fact that there's something

about it that really calls back
to.

You know the ancient art of
rhetoric and this idea that

ideas, this idea that concepts
and meaning kind of, are derived

through discourse and dialogue
and collaborative.

You know the collaborative
process of thinking through and

you know the collaborative
process of thinking through, um,

and you know this idea too,
that writing is, is writing is a

mode of thinking, like we write
so that we can understand

something better, and when we
write, we're also writing in

conversation with other writers
and other sources or in response

to something.

Um, it frastic poetry is
written in a conversation with

art, for example, and so I don't
know.

I think there's something
interesting about the fact that

these models, these language
models, are call and response

and they are input, output and
they are sort of these two way

chats right.

Like most of these models,
manifest as chat bots in some

forms.

And it does make me think a lot
about the fact that you know,

as we've talked, you know, so
many of us have been thinking

for so long about the loneliness
epidemic and thinking about how

technology, you know, at least
on the surface, seems like it

might be driving us deeper and
deeper into ourselves and making

us feel like more and more
isolated.

It feels like maybe there is
this impulse then to use

technology to connect outward
and to enable these kinds of

conversations and to enable
discourse and this recognition

that the way that we think best
as humans is collaboratively is

in this kind of a two-way or
multi, you know, in a polyphony

of voices, like we think in
community.

And I think that that's like
something to maybe take away and

, you know, really think about
more when it comes to our use of

these AI language models.

Is that that's really catering
to something that we do well and

enabling us to do it better in
some ways, and it really also, I

think, is feeding this need
that we have to kind of reach

out and have that kind of a
connection.

And, in Fabric, a lot of my
early introductions to working

with AI, were working with
AI-powered chatbots and engaging

in exactly that kind of
relationship where you know it

was question and answer, or it
was input output or it was.

You know it was question and
answer, or it was input output

or it was.

You know there was a back and
forth happening and it really,

you know, stuck with me that.

You know, in a lot of those
early conversations, like, for

example, when I was working with
there's this robot named Bina48

, who I was working with in like
2018 or so and started like

mentoring her in poetry, and all
of our sessions were like, you

know, it's just, it's like a
one-on-one kind of poetry

workshop, essentially, and it
was a way of interacting with or

engaging with technology that I
hadn't quite, you know, thought

about and it certainly made it
feel a little bit easier and a

little bit more intuitive to be
actually face-to-face with you

know this, this status system,
as opposed to just kind of

entering things on a keyboard.

But it also just brought to mind
, like, how much of human

thought and philosophy has been
rooted in this kind of you know,

let's like let's talk it out,
let's like let's put our heads

together and really just like
kind of think through this.

So that's a.

I think that's a really
interesting piece of it for sure

.

Speaker 2: It is, and I you
touched on a great, on a point

that really resonates with me
because, like, humans are

inherently social creatures and,
like we, if we are alone, like

it's there's there's been so
many like studies shown around,

like what happens to a person if
they are in complete isolation

for an extended period of time
like humans are very much social

creatures.

Um, you know, and one question
that I've grappled with for a

while, ever since I really
started getting into discovering

the internet and finding my
niche here, is internet allowing

us?

Is internet just an evolution
to our humanity or is it

bringing out the worst in people
?

Like, there's an argument for
both sides and I'd love to hear,

kind of like, how you think
about that.

Like, what you know, is this
helping?

Is you know this, this idea of
like loneliness?

Every time I've gone inward,
I've always learned something

really profound, and sometimes
it's really painful to learn,

but it's really helpful to do
that, so I'd love.

Yeah, Anyway, I would love to
hear, like, like, how you think

about that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a
really good question.

It is a very thorny question
because it's certainly I mean

yes to like all of that.

I think you know there's ways
in which, like we're using

technology in such amazing and
positive ways, like to come

together as community and
support people who need it and,

you know, just create systems
where we don't have systems.

Speaker 2: You know, we're using
.

Speaker 1: We're using social
media and things like that to

actually like connect and in
ways that are really important,

um, and in ways that we couldn't
otherwise, right like we, we

we're able to sort of teleport
from one place to another

through these technologies and,
like that, enables us to extend

care and have conversations and,
um, and do things that are

really essential.

But yeah, I mean, there's
obviously the flip side of it,

or like the other side of the
coin, which is the darker side

in human nature, which is not
technology's fault.

I think it's like you know, it's
there and we've, you know, seen

that from you know the
beginning, and I think that's

something that I'm often trying
to grapple with too Totally, you

know, the human input, and
separating that out and not just

conflating it all together and
thinking, oh, ai is like really

dangerous, or AI is, you know,
unethical, or AI is this or that

.

I think like it's helpful for me
to sort of tease that apart a

little bit and understand where
the fault lies, more in like

these entrenched human biases
that are feeding a lot of the

negative tendencies or that are
causing things to go awry, um,

and that, I think, to kind of
circle back to what you were

saying, like that's requiring us
to look inward as opposed to,

you know, laying the blame
elsewhere or saying, like

everyone, stop, you know,
innovating we, we, you know, we

can't continue moving forward
with ai.

Instead of doing that, what we
do actually need to look inside

and sort of understand, um, you
know, where the problems are

coming from, and that's a much,
much more difficult thing to do,

maybe an impossible thing to do
in some cases, um, but it's,

you know yeah I guess, as with
um, as with anything, as you're

saying, like, maybe, maybe that
is the ultimately, that's the

thing we need to do, not take
the shortcut, but actually, like

, do the painful thing.

So I don't know, but I think in
general, you know, technology is

all sorts of technologies and
all sorts of inventions have

been used, for good and for bad.

I mean, I guess that's like a
much bigger philosophical

argument.

Like you could, you know, we
could, we could spend hours

debating whether, like the
really dire inventions like the

atomic bomb or something like,
did those actually have, you

know, a positive consequence as
well as a negative consequence?

Or I mean, anyway, like any
technology can be used in myriad

ways, and then it sort of
really it becomes a much more

near question, right To like
drill down and really start

understanding how much of the
bad you can accept or live with,

along with the good, and where
the balance lies.

Speaker 2: Totally.

I mean, you know, while it's
weird to get excited about a

topic such as the atomic bomb, I
think it's something that I I

went and saw Oppenheimer like
four times um in theaters oh

yeah, that movie is so powerful
and that was, and that was why

and like it's kind of a paradox
to be excited about a movie that

tells the story of a very
uncomfortable part of human

history, um, and I think that is
precisely why it was so

exciting to me, because it was,
uh, it was a very bold thing to

do and tell it from a different
perspective.

Um, but I, I, I think you know
there's an interesting question

that lies there, where it's like
okay, you know, as, as we all,

as we figured out and we
painfully continue to figure out

at times, just in our own
personal journeys, and on on a

macro level as a whole, you know
, there is no this or that.

There is no perfect utopia to
exist.

There is light, there's dark,
there's good, there's evil.

There is always going to be a
bit of that, because I look at

it like the good doesn't.

If everything was always good
all the time, it would just

become boring and there needs to
be catalysts to show us, uh, an

additional context to maybe why
this was, you know why, like,

make the good good and make the
bad, like, oh, okay, maybe we

can do better, and it and humans
always, and if you look at,

I've often thought about this
and I'm going to go a lot of

different directions here.

But, um, you know, I thought
about this If you take away

every problem from a human being
, what will happen?

And my answer is we will create
problems to solve, because if

we are not solving problems, we
are stagnant as human beings.

Um, so it's kind of this weird
uh conundrum that I get myself

in when I think about this from
time to time.

But I think the way I respond
to it is that does, with a

technology, does the net
positive outweigh the net

negative?

You know, and can't.

Am I, am I okay with that, and
sometimes I'm not, and sometimes

I am.

Um, you know, but I think
that's like my barometer of

judging some of these things, um
, you know.

So I guess the what this leads
me to that I want to ask you is

how would you specifically
define technology?

Like what does that mean to you
?

And like how have you thought
about this?

Like, what does that mean to
you?

And like how?

Speaker 1: have you thought
about this?

Yeah, but that's all.

Yeah, okay, you've got again.

Like now I can go in many
different directions too, so I'm

like which one do I get the?

Speaker 2: next Big one.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean, and
to circle back around quickly

to Oppenheimer, like I couldn't
help.

But you know, as I was watching
the movie, I think especially

at the time that I saw it, there
was a lot happening with open

AI and stuff at that moment in
time, there were so many lines

in the movie where I was like
they could be talking about

artificial intelligence.

So, yeah, I definitely had that
in my mind too as I was watching

, and it's a really powerful
moment in history, obviously,

but also, I think, allegory for
a lot of stuff that we continue

to think about and live through.

But yeah, I mean, when it comes
to AI, I think like one of the

well, so you're asking, first of
all, like, how do I define

technology?

And I think maybe, in a really
broad way, the best way that I

know of to think about it is is
that it's sort of and the best

way that I know of to think
about it is that it's sort of

something that we're devising to
enable us to do something that

we cannot do kind of on our own.

It's something that we're kind
of augmenting ourselves with,

whether that's a skill or sort
of enabling us to do something

greater or to kind of push
forward and innovate or make

progress.

And when it comes to things
like AI, when it comes to sort

of thinking about whether or not
it's something that we, you

know, do we need these new tools
?

Do we need all the things that
come with it, like the perils,

along with like the great
potential and kind of weighing

it.

I think one thing that I try to
remember and that I try to do

more you know, more research on
and just like stay a little bit

more in tune with, is that while
we're so entrenched in what's

happening in the world of
creative AI, and specifically

artworks that are, you know
being with AI and things like

that, there are so many
applications above and beyond

you know what's possible in the
creative field where there's a

lot of you know really
demonstrable like good happening

as a result of these tools.

And I mean, if you look at
what's happening with things

like you know AlphaFold and
developing models that can help

you know, with scientific
research and the development of,

you know pharmaceuticals and
therapies and being able to get

closer to curing things that we
might have once thought were

incurable, like there's there's
a lot of really interesting and

sort of tangible um achievements
that are are kind of noteworthy

in those arenas too, and I feel
like that's that's major,

that's a those.

Those are really, really
important things.

I mean again, like throughout
the course of human history,

like those key moments in time
so many of them have to do with

eradicating a disease or, you
know, preventing, you know

another pandemic and really, you
know taking medical care of a

large group of people.

And so if technologies like AI
can continue to deliver on the

promise that they're already
showing to really help in

shields like that, that's very
important and it seems like

there's, you know, obviously,
the argument against that, I

guess, would be you know what
happens if you know if something

gets out of the research lab,
and there's that kind of

dystopian side of it.

But I feel like if we're
looking at it as a tool to help,

like, turbocharge essential
research and then to help

streamline and optimize the
process of developing, you know,

things like cures for diseases,
then that's a really important

thing, and that, to me, is it's
easier to see the benefit of

that than maybe looking at AI
artwork and saying it was really

important that artists are able
to use AI in this way.

But, that being said, like they
are sort of on the same

spectrum and they were coming
from the same place, which is

that these tools, essentially,
are augmenting our imaginations

in ways that are going to allow
us to problem solve and to do

things and to solve big problems
, creative or otherwise that we

might not be able to do on our
own.

So, you know, again, when we
sort of take a step back and

look at the state of the world
as it is now, there are a lot of

really big issues that it seems
like these machine learning

systems can help us come in and
make progress, make incremental

progress or make significant
progress, um, and that's, I

think, that's worth pursuing.

So there's a lot of, you know,
again, there's a lot to be said

for that.

I think there's also, of course
, like, um, it's important to be

very realistic about the ways
in which it's dangerous, the

ways in which these systems are
amplifying biases, the way that

they're perhaps exploiting
contributors and all and all

that, and in ways that, again,
like we can, we can get into

that more if it's, you know, if
it's interesting or not, but

there's so much to be said on
that side.

But I think, like the, the sort
of maybe the, the takeaway on

all of it is just to say, like
this is such a huge arena, it's

not like it's a, it's a niche
tool or it's something that you

can kind of define, you know,
through one field or one kind of

subset or a discipline.

It's, or it's something that
you can kind of define, you know

, through one field or one kind
of subset or discipline.

It's just, it's so all
encompassing, that it really is,

I think, hard to sort of paint
it with any one brush, and

that's why, maybe circling back
around to where we started this

conversation, one of the reasons
why I'm really interested in AI

and interested in this
particular kind of field of

technology is because to me, it
feels that you know, more than

anything else, the rise of AI is
on par with something as

seismic as the development of
spoken language or the advent of

written literature or movable
type or any of these kind of

profoundly you know,
game-changing moments in history

that changed not just, not just
like logistical things, not,

you know, not incremental
changes here and there, but they

actually upended the way that
we communicate and tell stories

and the way that we understand
ourselves and they really shaped

consciousness, and I think that
kind of that's really what's at

stake.

That's the big picture kind of
view of what's happening with AI

is that it really is changing
everything we know about

creativity and originality and
you know what it means to be

human, and so I think like that
to me is such a enormous

question.

It really is hard to sort of
say is this, is this in the pro

column or the negative column?

It's.

It's sort of like you know what
?

To be human means to constantly
be progressing and to be

evolving, and it seems in some
sense inevitable that we

continue to sort of be shaped by
our technologies as we're also

shaping the technologies.

It's like this ongoing process
that we, for better or for worse

, we're, we're caught up and we
always have been and I think we

always will be.

Speaker 2: I really the you know
, the more and more I dive down

the rabbit hole from, you know,
whether it's reading or talking

to people like you who have just
been knee deep in the trenches

for for years.

I mean just looking back at
some of your work, going back to

, like 2017 and like, really
kind of having these like

conversations, uh, and some of
these thoughts which you know,

it's wild that people still
think some of these are really

crazy, but, like, I can only
imagine how crazy uh they must

have sounded in 2017.

To the, to the, to the bigger
world, you know, uh, or to the

to the people he were talking to
, um, and so, like I, I was

watching some of the, some of
the clips, and I was like, man,

this is in 2017.

I was trying to think of where
I was in 2017.

Like, I was still just trying
to figure out, you know, like,

how to, yeah, how to like
progress, my career at a call

center job, you know, or, like I
, how, like the level of thought

that's gone into this and I
think that's a big part of your

work and figuring out how to
communicate some of those ideas

into new and transformative ways
.

And to go back to how, like I
don't know if this will be the

last Oppenheimer reference, but
it's gonna be one of the last

ones, but it kind of in that
moment where he's with Niels

Bohr and he's like you have to
help them understand that this

is not a new weapon, it's a new
world, and that that line came

to that moment, like came
through to me right when you

were talking about that as that.

This is not talking about that
as that, this is not.

I think it's so easy to view it
as a weapon because there's a

fear of it, a dystopian fear, a
sci-fi fear of it.

You know, taking over, yeah,
but I I want to pause there,

cause I like I see the wheels
turning, so I want I want to let

you go ahead.

Speaker 1: No, no, no, I just I,
I no, no, no, I think that

that's exactly it.

And yeah, it really just does
sort of tickle me though You're

circling back to Oppenheimer
again, but it is apt begin to

sort of wade into these waters,
like I've not been able to not

like think about it, because
once you start to see the

implications and once you start
to kind of understand what this

means for where we're going,
it's I don't know how I could be

thinking about anything else
and I don't know how I could be

making work about anything else,
because it's just to me it's

like so all-consuming and yeah,
I think that's why, like you

know, again, poetry doesn't seem
like it's necessarily that

related to AI on its surface.

But, as you just sort of hinted
at, when we're talking about AI

, we're not just talking about
computer systems or not talking

about, you know, gadgets and
gizmos and and stuff like that.

We're talking about
consciousness and communication

and creativity and imagination,
um, and like all these things

that are much, much, you know,
bigger than any one particular

tool or device or discipline,
and you know when, when it comes

to thinking through how AI
manifests in terms of things

like neural implants, or if we
think about the ability to use

AI to activate archives and
reanimate personas or insert any

number of really just spooky
and exhilarating and terrifying

you know possibilities, that
we're not just talking about

technology in a sci-fi way.

We're talking about, you know,
the human condition.

We're talking about, like what
it means to be mortal or

immortal, and we're talking
about, like what it means to

have faith in something, and
like what are you putting your

faith into?

What you know?

What do you believe?

What is the bigger picture to
all this?

Um, when we're talking about,
you know, techno-spiritualism

and thinking about what our,
what our data is beyond our

flesh and blood selves, like is
our data some version of our

soul?

And there's all these like big
questions that I'm like how

could poets not be thinking
about this?

Um, and so, like you know, when
, know, when I was first

starting to take some of these
poems and these ideas into

workshops in more traditional
settings, you know the response

was like very skeptical and very
much like whoa, like this is

not poetry.

Like no, you shouldn't be
writing poems about this, you

shouldn't be using AI to write
poems.

Like this is for sci-fi classes
or something.

And it was just really hard for
me to not say.

Well, this is, these are the big
things that you know poets have

been writing about forever.

Like we're talking about, you
know, birth and death and life

and love and religion, and like
it's all.

It's all, it's all in AI.

So there is, like you know, and
that's that's too big to

usefully kind of think about too
much, but like that is, that is

, I think that is the truth is
that it is, you know,

potentially a seismic shift and
is transforming so much of what

we know in real time.

And it really is just mind
bogoggling to sort of be moving

through this moment where seems
like you know, every couple of

months there's a massive upgrade
in the technology, there's an

exponential kind of move forward
and suddenly every you know,

everyone who has access to these
tools is now able to do

something that six months ago we
wouldn't have dreamed was

possible and that I think is
almost becoming our normal in a

way.

Like we're kind of just sort of
expecting this cadence and

these profound shifts and I just
I find that astonishing on a

daily basis.

Speaker 2: I mean, I jump
between astonishing and just

overwhelmed.

It's like a seesaw.

Like I jump, I like one moment,
cause I'm very similar to you.

Like I obviously I'm a huge
I've always been a huge nerd and

love technology, just the
concept of it and just the

digitization of analog and.

But there's times where it's
like, oh my God, I literally

just figured out how to do this
and all of a sudden that's not

relevant anymore.

But there's times where it's
like, oh my God, I literally

just figured out how to do this
and all of a sudden that's not

relevant anymore and it's
exhausting and it's tiring and

it's like we're not slowing down
.

I think, in a weird funny way,
being in crypto full-time has

really helped me grapple with AI
in a sense, because I feel like

we speed run everything here,
like cycles are getting, appear

to be getting shorter, like
there's the extremes of every

situation.

Sometimes the bottom flushes
itself out sooner than it did

the last time, you know.

And there's, it just seems like
things are just not slowing down

in any way, shape or form and
it's honestly like I couldn't

imagine being anywhere else.

But it's also and it's also
primed me for what we're what,

what you're like what we're
literally talking about here and

, um, kind of how this, yeah,
what the future creativity looks

like, uh, and what some of
these big questions cause you.

You're mentioning a, a bunch of
like large questions that

honestly hurt my head to think
about at times, and so, hey, we

can only handle so much, right?

So I guess the curious part for
me is, you know, you've always

I mean, it's clear as day that
you've always had a love for

poetry well before AI Like
there's always been this

obsession with you know used as
like a guidebook or a reference

point, as you've kind of
transitioned from analog to AI,

to blockchain, to you know it's.

I would just be really curious
to know, kind of like, what for

you personally has like stood
the test of time that you almost

kind of use as reference
material?

Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's a
great question.

So, again, like many possible
ways to answer this, but there

are definitely a handful of
poets that I come back to

because I love their work but
also because I think they

somehow were writing about or
writing with an approach that

feels eerily resonant with what
we're doing now with AI and with

generative text.

So, for example, three poets who
I think about a lot in this

context and that I've integrated
into my work in different ways

are Walt Whitman and TS Eliot
and Emily Dickinson, and the

reasons why just to like briefly
kind of go through, I mean, I

think Whitman, for example, was
really interested in sort of

writing from a collective,
almost a universal kind of

experience, or writing from a
mode of the author channeling

multitudes, you know, a
multiplicity of voices, and kind

of recognizing a plethora of
experiences in a way that I

think really contradicts the
sort of prevailing idea of an

author as this kind of soul
genius you know, toiling away in

their writing studio with the
door shut, and that to me, like

really does relate in a
beautiful way to the collective

consciousness that is empowered
by or organized through

intelligent systems.

When we think about AI systems,
I know, again, our tendency is

to sort of think of them as
these alien, like machine-like

things, but like they're
actually, these hyper-human

networks that are comprised of,
you know, millions or billions

of human stories, and they're
just their system, not just, but

they are systems for enabling
us to organize and preserve and

access those human stories and
those human bits of information,

so that a writer like me, if
I'm using one of these models,

I'm essentially like plugging
myself into, like the whole of

you know humanities written
archives in a way that um is,

you know sort of you know
leaning into or nodding to to

that, that kind of that
whitman-esque impulse to kind of

write from that place of
multiplicity.

So, you know, I think again like
whitman, writing, writing song

of myself and thinking about all
those moments and thinking

about, like you know, the body
electric and all that I always

think, think about Whitman.

Ts Eliot is one of my favorite
poets, who I think in some like

literary circles is not, you
know, as beloved but, like I

grew up just adoring TS Eliot
and I think, because his work is

so big, it's like it's
philosophical and it really does

try and tackle the big
questions, like without any

shame or without any apologies.

It really is, you know, about
saying these are the big things

we're dealing with
existentialism and war and the

uncertainty of our future.

And you know he was writing
about time and religion and the

essence of what it means to be
human at times of great upheaval

.

And I really, really, you know,
I'm so moved and inspired by so

much of what he's written,
especially Four Quartets, which

is actually a direct inspiration
for a project, project, the

project that I just launched
with Bang Olufsen actually is

sort of rooted in four quartets
but also the Wasteland, which is

so, I think, relevant to a lot
of the kind of the existential,

you know, dread that so many of
us feel today.

So he's another one who I
always think of as a touchstone.

And sorry, now I'm rambling,
but this is like the poetry nerd

is like so excited by these
questions.

Speaker 2: I'm here for it,
please like.

Please just go off.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the other thing
I was going to mention with

Elliot is that he specifically,
you know, wrote an essay called

Tradition and the Individual
Talent, which is very much about

the question that is rising
because of what's happening with

AI and training data sets.

But he wrote a lot and
considered this question of

whether or not you are writing
something original alone or

whether you, as a writer, are
sort of channeling or communing

with the voices of all the other
writers who've come before you

and he was sort of saying you
know, know, as a poet, you need

to have these voices and these
texts in your body, in your

blood and in your brain, like
when you're writing, you are

writing powered by all this
information, um, that has come

before you and you're you're.

That's how you're able to write
, um, and I mean there's like

more more to that, but just
boiling it down.

But I think that's also a
really interesting way of again

like thinking about what it
means to be in collaboration

with other creatives through
intelligent systems, or to be

tapping into a language model,
or tapping into a database of

art, or using, you know, a
massive training data system

that's primed on mathematical
formulas, or you know alphabets

and grammars that we're we're
all sort of we're always using

pre-assembled bits and pieces,
right, like this conversation

that we're having now, like
we're saying things that maybe

we've never said in this way
before, but we're using existing

grammars and syntax and I'm
taking ideas that I've been

thinking about and bouncing them
off.

What you're saying and
everything's combinatorial and

recombinatorial, and I think
that, like again comes through

for me in a lot of what ts
elliott is doing and even the

way that he was bringing in
various voices and, you know,

quotes and different references
to canonical literature and

moments in history, and then
he'd pull in a moment from, you

know, from from pop culture, and
kind of mix it all together in

a pastiche and that to me also
feels very relevant.

That whole modernist vibe is
like very, um, very ai.

So there's that.

And then the last thing I was
going to mention, and then I'll

stop because I could go on and
on.

But there's a poem by emily
dickinson that I love and I've

played with a lot, actually in
translations, like binary code

translations, and then also kind
of using it in my training

model and kind of using it in
writing sessions.

But, um, you know, she wrote
these very short, like terse,

but like really profound poems,
and one of them, um, is called

to make a prairie.

I think I'm, if I'm not like, I
think I'm phrasing it correctly

, I hope I'm not missing an
important word, but the, the

gist of the poem is to make a
prairie takes one clover, one

clover and a bee, and then it
kind of goes from there.

But the idea is that you know,
you, you, you can make this

whole massive thing starting
from these little seed, these

little kernels and then in the
poem she talks about how, if you

don't have those things, um,
you know, you can kind of just

make them happen with your
imagination and to.

To me, like that poem is both
about generativity and the

generativity of like human
thought and kind of the fertile

ground of the poet's imagination
, and it also kind of nods

toward virtual reality in a way,
and it's kind of this

understanding that we can use
language, virtual reality in a

way, and it's kind of this
understanding that we can use

language to create things that
are not there, like we can bring

things into being by speaking
them into existence or by

imagining them into existence.

And that's what we're doing
with virtual realities and

augmented realities.

And actually that's what
writers has been doing you for

time in the memorial and again,
like I just find that super

fascinating to think about.

And that's one particular poem
of hers that stands out, but

it's a theme that comes up again
and again and I just I love, I

love how tersely she puts it.

Like her poems are like little
codes to me.

They're so beautifully wrought
and like compressed.

Speaker 2: It kind of boils it
down to like what I.

What I hear is like the essence
of like it.

There's no fluff, it's just,
it's just the, the raw kind of

the raw kind of seed there.

You know, uh, and and and and,
where that, where that's come

from.

No, I, anyone who's ever uh,
everyone, I think, who has been

on this podcast always has
always like apologizes at some

point in time for rambling, but
it's like literally what I'm

here for and I set you up
completely for that.

So I like it is, it is it is.

It is not because my personal
take is that, you know, we see a

certain context on the timeline
, we see a certain context in,

like Twitter spaces.

We see there's a lot of like,
you know there's, there's,

there's a few layers that we see
, but like, in my opinion, like

the beauty of conversation and
humanity is like the tangents

are not something that we
immediately think about until

given the space and the time to
like do so, and that, at least

for me personally, my own take
is where what makes humans

interesting is like cause we're,
we're, uh, we're incredibly,

we're incredibly layered, where
there's so many layers to the

onion that is us and there's so
many different things that

interest us in different and
unique ways.

So I just want to say,
personally, I really it's one of

the things that I've like
fallen in love with doing.

This is like getting to hear,
like what makes you smile and

like what makes you get up in
the morning and what you know,

like why you do what you do.

And as you were going through
that, it clicked in my head

where it's like okay, if this is
what she was already thinking

about before, ai, like every
single one of these

philosophical concepts and every
single way in which these,

these poets, you know, put their
work out there, it kind of just

made sense of like there's no
way this couldn't have clicked

for you in the way that it that
it has, and there's no way, like

, once you found this, like it's
, it just is an inevitability

with what your current interests
were prior to coming into this.

It just makes too much sense, um
, and so I just wanted to to say

that it was.

I love that, um, it's great I
love, I love that.

Speaker 1: that's like I think
that's so true.

And I don't think I totally
realized that until after, you

know, I'd been using ai for a
little while and then I was like

, hmm, look at all the writers
that I've studied throughout my

career as a student of
literature and language, and it

was always people like James
Joyce and Cervantes and like

people who were in Gertrude
Stein and Virginia Woolf.

I'm like people who are doing
rather experimental things with

their work.

And you know whether it was
someone like Joyce, who was

really like again pulling
together a diverse range of

stories and voices and kind of
assembling them in new ways, or

someone like Cervantes, who was
sort of creating like avatars

within his stories and kind of
multiple layers of storytelling,

you know, kind of simulations
upon simulations, or you know,

in that Picard tradition, it
definitely did dawn on me, like

afterwards, that I was always
drawn to a particular mode of

storytelling and so, yeah, what
you said totally makes sense to

me.

Speaker 2: Amazing.

Yeah, this has been awesome and
it's cool to hear the history

of how.

Yeah, just what is your
foundation?

And I guess that leads me to a
question that I thought about in

the middle of all this.

Um, you know, I, the more I
grow as a human, the more I

realize again, for better or
worse, you know.

So hopefully this didn't get
taken out of context, but like

there's sometimes there's the
truth and then there's the story

, Um, and sometimes the story.

Often everyone likes a good
story and sometimes a lot of

people will avoid the truth in
sake of just wanting to be

comforted by a good story.

So I've always found that
thought with humanity just

wildly fascinating.

Even within myself, there's
sometimes where it's like maybe

I don't want to know the truth,
Like the story is really good as

it is and it's wildly
entertaining attaining.

So I guess for you, someone who
has dedicated their life to

storytelling and who's been
obsessed with understanding how

to tell stories in new ways that
really challenge our way of

seeing, for you what makes a
good story Like, what defines

that.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's a great
question.

I mean, I think like the idea
of a story as a vessel for so

many different things is really
intriguing to me, and the fact

that there is no sort of one
recipe for what makes the story

valuable or important.

But, um, you know that we sort
of have this general idea of of

using storytelling as a way to
save and share, like transmit

things that are important to us
in one way or another, with

whether that's family, you know,
historical information, or like

family stories, or like
transactional records or things

like that.

You know there's all these
different modes.

Speaker 2: So I guess maybe let
me rephrase this what makes a

story worth remembering?

Speaker 1: Well, authenticity, I
think, makes a story worth

remembering, and sort of a
unique perspective and kind of

the recognition that it's
something that if you don't

remember it, you know it'll, it
won't be there, it'll leave kind

of a blank spot.

I think, again, to make the
connection between storytelling

and technology and poetry and
technology.

Memory is a super important
piece of it.

I think about memory and
recollection quite a lot.

I've written poems called
things like Memento Memoriae,

which is a play on memento mori,
and I think about memory a lot

and that to me is sort of like
the link between these, these,

these things, is that if we
don't, if we don't use

storytelling and poetic language
to um to preserve something,

we're at risk of losing that
thing.

And then losing the story is
like losing um.

It's losing a whole archive of
of information.

It means that we've lost that
data set.

It means we've lost, you know,
um, the ability to to go back

and visit those things, um, so I
think it's it's really

important to think about, you
know again, that like central

impulse that is common, or the
shared impulse that that both

storytelling and technology have
, which is to sort of make sure

that we're encoding things in a
way that can be preserved and

that can be shared or duplicated
, or yeah, let's be produced and

transmitted forward and forward
and forward, so that we don't

you know a like lose them, but
also b, so that we don't have to

start over from scratch and
like write the same stories over

and over again.

The point, maybe one of the
points of storytelling, and

maybe what makes a story
valuable, is that it is teaching

something.

It's kind of telling us
something that is important and

that maybe transforms who we are
, and having that story as part

of us means that we now know
something, we have a bit of

wisdom that influences where we
go from here, um, and obviously

that can mean a lot of different
things but I think there's

something about it that that
means you know, rather than

having to live all those
experiences ourselves, have all

those experiences firsthand.

We're able to sort of use
storytelling as a conduit to

what you know, what other people
have learned through their

lives, through their lived
experience, through all their

personal you know trials and
tribulations, and so

storytelling is that kind of
shorthand or that download of

all the collected wisdom that
has been accrued through through

those individual experiences
over time.

Um, so I think you know again,
like each one of those stories,

obviously like very individual,
and there's you know, what's

important to one person, maybe
not important to another person,

but that's you know.

That's again why it's so
important to another person, but

that's you know.

That's again why it's so
important to have the, this vast

repository, so that when there
is something that you need, you

can find it and you can
reference it, you know, you know

that it's there and it can be
accessed right.

Speaker 2: No, that was a, that
was a big question.

Um so, thank you for for for
tackling that Um, you know.

So, um, I love it, it's my
favorite kinds.

Speaker 1: I feel like you've at
least thought about these

things.

Whether it's, you know, recently
or back in the past, there's

always been a moment in time
where you thought about a lot of

these things.

A lot of conversations and
interviews that happen in this

space are very much about
talking points, or they're very

much about like a line that
someone's sort of expecting to

hear or sort of you know an
approach that we have already

understand, and I always
appreciate the opportunity to

just go off the cuff a little
bit and, like, actually use

conversations to develop new
ideas or to think about things

that I haven't thought about
before in this way and that, to

me, like it's the same reason
why I love working with AI is

because there is this
spontaneity, this, this kind of

element of surprise, and you
don't quite know where you're

going to go.

You know that wherever you go
is going to be directed by your

interest in some way.

So you're going to go somewhere
useful, um, but you're kind of

you know you're getting to
journey around off the beaten

path, which is like where a lot
of the really good stuff happens

.

Speaker 2: So I yeah, I really
like that, Thank you.

Yeah, it's fun and it's, you
know, the best things don't

happen by staying on the same
path.

I mean the most, I shouldn't
say the best, we'll just broaden

it the most interesting things
don't happen by staying on the

path that's already known.

Um, and I, I think if I've
learned anything from talking to

artists, it's, it's consistent.

I, I think it's just
consistently wanting to take

that left turn when you know the
natural human instinct is just

to continue to go straight, like
, if there's this desire to like

, continue to to, to venture
into the unknown, because you

just never know what you're
going to find.

um, and yeah, yeah, and I found
that you know, even with certain

conversations, that I've that,
I've that, I've prepped for, and

there's a, there's a period
where my intuition just says

stop, you've over prepped, like
there's, there's nothing, you're

not gonna.

You're gonna rob yourself of an
opportunity to learn something

new if you continue to just try
to learn everything before the

chat, because that's what the
chat is for and that's what I

think you know.

Yeah, absolutely so it's.

Yeah, thank you for that.

It means a lot and I appreciate
.

Yeah, just randomly taking those
big questions and I guess,

another one that you know, as
I'm going to put on, like my

collector hat and just an
observation out of like how I

viewed, you know, ai
particularly, I'm just going to

put it in the context, like
within our you know little niche

here on the internet.

I've seen, you know my
appreciation for AI generated

artwork, has definitely
appreciated, and I've understood

, you know I've developed my
taste a little bit more to like,

understand, like, okay, what is
like, and I hate to, it's kind

of a basic term, but it's like
what's quote, unquote, good and

what's not.

You know, it's like this filter
of like what.

When you democratize the tools
for everyone to use, that means

everyone can use them, um, and
there was initially this fear

that I had of like, well, oh my
God, how am I going to be able

to tell you know what's art and
what's just content or what's

just you know, uh, some some
shit that, like you know, I just

wanted to to to mess around
with?

So one of the one of the things
that I've I've thought about,

though, as well, is you know,
when you're taught, when you

were talking about every
creation of something, whether

it's art, whether it's, you know
, a machine, whether it's just

technology in general, whether
it's just, yeah, anything,

anything that's created is
always used, uh, even this

conversation is used from
moments of our past and our

understanding of the past.

It's just stories, you know,
that are, that are, that are

recycled in in ways that make
sense to us to, to bring us

further, um, but where to you
have you ever had kind of like a

, a moment when you're creating,
where it's like, I guess, how

have you dealt with the fact
that other and I may need to

like figure out how to rephrase
this, but, like you know,

there's a, there's a big
conversation around like

copyright and like work being
stolen, and you know there's and

it's got, it's been going on
forever in the music industry

and, like with remix culture and
with memes, it's, it's.

It's obviously not slowed down
and I think with AI it like

turbocharges that.

But I guess, personally, and I
guess morally, how do you look

at that?

You know, if, like, if there is
pieces of someone else's you

know creation in your work, has
that ever happened to you?

Or like, how have you thought
about that?

Because it's, I think it's a
question that's on a lot of

people's mind.

I think some creatives, like
some people, have some very

valid arguments if it's like a
direct rip, and there's others

where it's like, you know, like,
I'm not someone who creates

visual work or audible work, you
know, outside of the podcast,

so part of me, like just, is
very lost in this kind of

argument.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's, it's
a super important.

This is again where I feel like
having a discussion, having

discussions about it, is really
important, because it's not like

there is sort of one good
answer or like one sort of best

practice for how this should
work.

It's kind of like we're going to
need to sort of collaboratively

re-sync or think through
copyright as we know it and

think about, like, what
collaborative creativity means

or collaborative authorship
means, and I think this is going

to require a little bit of a
cultural shift in some way for

the most part, but I also think,
like some of it is actually a

lot more familiar to us than we
think.

It's just sort of reframing
some of the ways that we refer

to the creative process or the
ways that we kind of acknowledge

other sources in our work.

I mean, in academia, like you
know, I studied language and

literature in school and like
most, you know, like many of us,

I wrote numerous essays where I
had to cite all my sources.

And I see, not every now and
again when I writing an essay on

AI, I, you know I do so and
cite all my sources and that's

sort of a common thing.

You wouldn't be expected to
write, you know, a scholarly

article or write a dissertation
and not be in conversation with

other thinkers and writers and
you wouldn't be expected to not

bring in work.

I mean that's kind of the heart
of it all is to be able to, you

know, commune with these other
voices through your research and

work.

So that's like that's a very
firmly set precedent.

And so then the jump from that
to then how we acknowledge you

know sources or citations, like
in artwork, is a really

interesting question, because
you never really see artists

citing their sources or their
influences directly, the same

way that an academic would do it
.

But the same thing is happening
to some extent.

I mean, all artists are, you
know, getting their inspiration

from different places.

We're all kind of reflecting, um
, the things that have, uh, kind

of hit us in different ways or
resonated with us.

You know, many, many of the
most important artists

throughout history have been
part of movements or schools

where people were sort of
reinforcing ideas together and

they were meeting and talking
about or exchanging ideas and

working together, and I think
like that's important to

acknowledge too.

It's actually not the case that
, like originality, you know,

just kind of springs from
someone's mind, right?

So the difficulty or the big
challenge I think there is, then

how do you go from kind of
acknowledging that fact to

creating protocols or systems
that kind of are built to

support or or encourage or
enable the the you know that in

the best way possible, while
sort of making sure that you

know nobody's being exploited
and that, um, yeah, that you

know it's, it's it's kind of for
the greater good?

I think, right, rather than you
know, rather than taking these

and steering it into um, into
shadowy areas.

And I think, like it's to me,
that's the interesting

confluence of blockchain and ai
as well and, like you know, I've

, I was, uh, I came later to
blockchain than to ai.

I started really understanding
um, crypto art in like 2020 for

the first time.

And then I minted my first
piece in the beginning of 2021

and at first I was like, well,
they're both technologies, but I

don't know how blockchain
necessarily relates to AI.

And now I'm like, okay, of
course this all makes sense that

these are.

You know, these are actually
really complementary

technologies in that way.

But I mean, I think again like
what's difficult to kind of

navigate through.

For me, and speaking from
personal experience with recent

projects, it's easier to sort of
tease some of these things out

in real time with your peers and
with contemporaries who also

have thoughts and opinions about
this.

It's very different, I guess,
to think about how you use AI in

order to, you know, utilize or
relook at or engage with the

work of people who are not here
to talk about whether they want

you to do that or not.

Or, you know, in the case of
this project we did with

Diverseverse last year, with
Allen Ginsberg's estate, allen

Ginsberg's not here to say I,
you know, I'm happy for you to

use my work and kind of run with
it and see what ai will do with

it.

It's sort of up to us to say,
okay, well, you know, as people

sort of following in this, in
this poetic tradition, as

students of you know poetry, as
lovers of ginsberg's work,

there's a certain amount of
maybe appropriation isn't the

right word but, like in any kind
of writing, there's always some

kind of conversation happening,
you know, between those kinds

of giants of literature and the
people that are trying to create

you know literature.

Now the question is then
specifically like how do you

create systems and rules and
guidelines and etiquette for the

ways to do it that feel right
and that feel like they're

productive and they're enabling
creativity, as opposed to sort

of restricting or constraining?

Um, so and I think again,
that's just a huge question that

so many of us are actively like
trying to tease out through the

work we're doing, through
projects, through collaborations

with institutions and archives
and estates and universities Um,

and I think like that's, you
know, that's that's kind of the

upshot as we're trying to figure
out, you know, through practice

and through hands-on work, what
makes sense and how to

customize solutions, where
needed, for different scenarios.

Speaker 2: Totally, and I love
that reference that you talked

about with bringing a poet who
hasn't been around for a while

but kind of admitting would he
be okay with this or would he be

stoked on this?

Would he not?

Um, like, or would he be stoked
on this or would he not?

Or like, would he do it
begrudgingly, but would it be?

You know, um, I guess I'm gonna
toss a random, an idea I

thought about out there while
you were saying this.

I'm curious if you guys have
thought about it is, you know,

as these large language models
get better, would have y'all

thought, uh, I think it would be
really cool to source a large

language model with the poet
that is in question, uh, or that

that you guys are wanting to
solve the problem for all of

their literary works, all of
anything, anything published,

goes into this large language
model.

In addition to the history of
poetry, um, and all of the rules

that have been used in the past
, you know the, the present,

what could be used in the future
, and I mean, I hate to like

simplify it to this like uh term
, but like making like a, like a

gpt of that poet with that
knowledge, um, and it'd be like

would you be okay with this?

And then like that could be a
cool, like little thought

experiment, of like it may say
no, I don't know, I just

randomly thought about that
while you're saying this.

I'm like because you can create
your own GPT models now, which

is super interesting.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so I love that.

I love that.

That's what your brain does.

That's where my brain always
goes to so with I guess, like

sort of two things but and I'll
try to keep it like sort of

close because I know we're
coming down to the wire.

But um, the first thing is that
my my first project with bina

48, who I mentioned earlier uh,
I think I mentioned that it was

a poetry, sort of a mentorship
of this robotic mind and a lot

of the, a lot of the conceptual
kind of hook of that project was

how do you create kind of a
customized language model that

is specifically knowledgeable
about poetry in the way that I

think about poetry?

Because there were canonical
kind of poetry data sets that

you could use and upload in
order to fine tune a model like

GPT-2.

Fine-tune a model like GPT-2,
but they were trained on, like

you know, john Donne and Milton
and Shakespeare and like the

kind of the you know the great
poets of history, but they

didn't reflect any contemporary
poetry and they didn't really

kind of reflect contemporary
free verse, and so that's why

now, if you ask ChatGPT to write
a poem for you, it does it in

rhyming verse.

If you ask chat GPT to write a
poem for you, it does it in

rhyming verse like always, and
it kind of never, never deviates

from that.

So that, like that, was an
experience for me where I kind

of realized I mean, the
limitations really in using

these models come down to what,
what's in the training data and

what they've, what they've
learned.

So if all they've learned is a
very narrow definition of poetry

, that's what you're going to
get.

So that was sort of one
takeaway from that project and

that was in a lot of ways like
the kind of the catalyst for

what I'd done with technology,
which is a bespoke version of a

language model and it's various
iterations now over time.

But it started with customizing
GPT-2 based on all of my own

human writings and it was things
like you know excerpts from ts

elliot and other poems that were
in the public domain and you

know bits of uh like little
thought starters that I'd

written down but they weren't
poems yet and I took all of that

data and put all of that into a
JSON file and made a training

data set and use that and that
became my collaborator and you

know that was really
specifically so that I'd have a

model to write with that sounded
more like me and that felt

closer to the way that I think
about poetry.

Closer to the way that I think
about poetry, and I also kind of

trained it on things like, you
know, a poem doesn't have to be

rhyming couplets.

A poem doesn't have to rhyme.

A poem doesn't have to be in,
you know, syllabic meter, it

doesn't have to do X, y and Z.

And so it actually became like
this much bigger sort of

philosophical question for
myself of like, well, what is

poetry?

What is a poet?

What is is a poem?

How do I explain this to a
non-human mind?

Like, do I have to get down to
the level of?

You know, a poem can be, um,
you know, like a piece of poetic

language that you see on a
billboard somewhere and it just

stands out and it like becomes a
little poetic moment versus

something that you're reading in
a textbook, and so, anyway,

like I could go down the rabbit
hole on this, but it was a huge

sort of moment to realize that
you know, there are all these

different stages where you get
better results and you get more

of an interesting interaction
and a more meaningful

interaction when you are
personalizing or customizing a

model in this way.

So that's what I've really been
doing.

You know, the bulk of my time
working with AI has not been

working with off-the-shelf
models.

It's always been kind of
working with that fine-tuned

version in very collaborative
ways.

And then to your point, you
know there's a number of poets

who've done things that are kind
of you know what you're

describing, and not just poets
but writers to people like Mark

America and David Javu Johnston,
and you know there's not a lot,

but there is definitely a few
who've taken their own materials

and kind of turn them into
co-authors as well.

And that was sort of the
precursor of all the little AI

assistants and things like that
that are becoming very readily

available through commercial
products now.

But I think that to me that's
like always been the

exhilarating potential of AI is
to be able to create these very

customized tools where you're
like a painter mixing your own

paint or like stretching your
own canvas and creating your own

materials, and just kind of
setting up this environment in

which a very particular kind of
creativity is really encouraged

or inspired.

So that to me, is a super
fascinating like piece of this.

And I see more and more artists
now, um, well, okay, maybe not

tons, but there are.

There are a number of really
interesting artists who are

using ai, but in this very, very
personalized way and sort of

creating um tool sets and tool
kits and things that are really

reflecting their own practice as
an artist before an ai, and I

think that's a that's an
important piece of this too.

There's a lot of people who,
you know, are using AI to sort

of create art for the first time
, which is very different from

having a voice or a style or a
practice or, you know, kind of a

clear point of view and then
figuring out how to use the

tools to change or transform or
augment or expand that practice,

which is, I hope, like what
I've been trying to do as a

writer.

Speaker 2: I love that.

I mean, and just to be like
super clear, like I have a set

calendar date, I'm not or set
calendar time, but that I have

time so we can talk about a few
more, unless you don't like

that's.

Speaker 1: I wish, I wish, I
wish.

I could but I actually do have
to jump off in a few moments.

Um, I'm sorry, I do have like
another conflict afterwards, but

it's.

This is so fun and I wish I
could just keep chattering

because it's a great.

Speaker 2: No worries at all I
just wanted to make sure, yeah,

I, because, like, I can keep
going, uh, but I also know that,

uh, yeah, there might, there
definitely might be conflict.

So, um, I want to, I want to
wrap it up and I'm gonna, I need

to pull up twitter to get their
at, because I um saw that they

recently won a um, a book of
yours, um, and uh sanso, or they

, they basically were gifted a
book, oh, and so I reached out,

just for full transparency.

I wanted to do something really
fun here.

Uh, obviously, they they're a
big fan of your work and I've

always loved their contributions
to space and some of their

tweets and just the dialogue
that they create.

So I reached out to him and
asked him, you know, like, what

would be some questions that he
would love to ask you.

Oh, that's so cool.

So I want to pull it up and I'll
be reading a little bit from

here.

I want to make sure I got it up
and I want to.

I'll be reading a little bit
from here.

I want to make sure I got it.

So it's kind of three questions
that build on each other, so

feel free to answer it in
whatever way you see fit.

Is what do you see as the
future of AI art as AI becomes

more powerful, Do we lose
humanness altogether?

Is there a way that AI can find
interesting ways to help us

explore humanness in its role as
an outsider?

Speaker 1: Yeah, those are great
questions and big questions

also.

Yes, I mean obviously I'll give
a deeper answer, but yes to all

of those because I mean I don't
think I'd be using sorry, wait,

no, the second one maybe isn't
the right.

I shouldn't say yes to that but
I wouldn't be using AI if I

didn't think that there was a
good direction to go in.

You know, with these tools.

I'm using it because I
personally find it really

inspiring and useful and
valuable and because I think it

can also be useful and valuable,
you know, to others as well.

So, I think, to you know, to the
first question, it kind of

jumps off the point we were just
discussing, which is, I think,

that as we go forward, we'll
continue to see more and more

value coming from being able to
take these tools and make them

more nuanced and kind of figure
out how to personalize them kind

of much in the way that, um,
you know, we as a culture

transformed from, you know this
idea of the computer as this

like behemoth, you know
room-sized machine.

Now we have these little tiny
personal computers that are

really, you know, prophecies for
us.

That's kind of what's already
happening and will continue to

happen with ai.

Is that we're.

We're transitioning from this
idea of ai as this behemoth

entity and we're understanding
like these this is an approach,

it's a way of empowering
individual inquiry or helping to

kind of bolster imagination or,
you know, empower a unique

point of view.

And I think that you know
that's where a point of view,

and I think that you know that's
where a lot of the interesting

stuff is going to happen in the
art world Right now a lot of

there's a lot of experimentation
, a lot of just playing with new

tools as they come out and,
quite frankly, not a lot of like

very I don't know like you know
work beyond just kind of that

novelty factor.

And I think once we've all had
a chance to think about it more

and use this more and play more
and get more adept and really

kind of grapple with what it all
means, that's when things will

start to get really interesting.

And I'm excited to sort of see
what happens when we go beyond

this idea of just, you know,
generating imagery and like get

much more um, complex and
challenging, and it'll get much

more exciting as, as we, as we
move forward there.

Um, okay, and then the second
and third questions are like the

big questions, right.

So I mean, I think that for me,
the the reason that I really do

love working with intelligent
systems.

The reason that I am inspired
by it is because it's opening up

new creative realms that I
don't think I would be able to

access without it, and that's
both enabled by the technology

and it's also enabled by kind of
the philosophical framework for

the technology, and I think the
same is true for crypto in a

sense as well.

But being able to use AI in this
way has sort of made me realize

, you know more and more about
what it means to be a human poet

writing, and has sort of made
me look deeper into my own

process and my own inspiration
and the way that I put words

together.

As I am kind of figuring out
more and more about how the

systems work, it requires me
thinking more and more about

things like uh, what is a poem?

How do I define what poetic
language is To me like?

What is a great poem?

How do I put my finger on that
ineffable quality that makes

something you know powerful or
emotional?

So it's requiring me to go even
more into like, what is the

human quality?

What are the things that make
this art form so, so essential

to us?

And I think that's it's kind of
moving in both directions at the

same time we're we're figuring
out how to translate this to the

machine and we're figuring out
how to articulate it better for

ourselves, and I think that's
something we can continue doing

in tandem, um, not so much, you
know, replacing um the human,

but kind of using the tool to
understand more about the human.

I think that that's actually
what happens with all technology

, in a way.

So there's, there's that piece
of it.

Um, you're gonna have to remind
me, like, what I'm not

answering, what I'm not
responding to, because those

were again like very big
questions.

Speaker 2: Well, I guess the
last is I think you touched on

all of it because it was you
know what do you see as the

future of AI art?

As AI becomes more powerful, Do
we lose humanness altogether,

and is there a way that the AI
can find interesting ways to

help us explore humanness and
its role as an outsider, find

interesting ways to help us
explore?

Speaker 1: humanness and its
role as an outsider.

Um, yeah, yeah.

So, and that in the last one,
like yeah, I think you did touch

on all of it.

But, like I will say for the
last one, I have been thinking a

lot lately.

It's just it's been coming up
like in a lot of projects that

I'm working on and a lot of
conversations that I've had, but

thinking about the difference
between ai generated poetry and

human poetry and kind of the
different, you know, the

aesthetic differences, but also
like, maybe, the practical

differences and the utilitarian
differences and like what are we

using human poetry for?

What are we potentially going
to be able to use machine

generated poetry for?

And I feel like there might
actually be distinct categories

and different applications that
make all of it useful and

worthwhile.

And again, this is like,
instead of you know, um outs, we

don't want to outsource human
poetry necessarily to these

systems, but maybe maybe we can
use these systems, um, to

generate poetry for therapeutic,
or we can use it to actually,

you know, enable some kind of
function that we know poetry is

very good for but that maybe
contemporary poetry isn't really

prioritizing.

So I think there's ways of also
understanding where the

capabilities of the technology
enables it to do something with

poetic language that it's
particularly, you know,

optimized for, and like that can
be, that can be what the

machine poets do, and then the
human poets get to do more and

more of what we love, and we
just kind of, you know, do that

with even more inspiration at
our fingertips, I think, which

is a really cool thing.

And then, sort of, you know,
looking beyond poetry, the thing

that I really am always just so
like stunned by and so excited

by is the fact that these
machines are sort of built to

help us see things that we're
not going to be able to see on

our own, and sometimes that can
be, you know, a weird poetic

turn of phrase.

Sometimes it can be like the
answer to a research problem, um

, sometimes, as I said before,
it could be like, you know, a

potential solution for some
massive problem.

Maybe it's like a, you know, a
thought starter for a way to

tackle some aspect of climate
change, and I feel like there's

lots of ways in which these
machines that are built to

generate um outputs can actually
be used for ideation, for

brainstorming, for problem
solving on a really massive

scale, and so that I think, with
the third question, my like

that's what I often kind of want
to lean into is just how can we

really kind of join forces and
have, like the human vision and

the human sort of intention and
purpose, combined with the, the

incredibly powerful ideation of
these machinic partners, thought

partners, and what can we do
together that we can't do on our

own?

And I think there's lots of
potential upsides to that in a

lot of different disciplines and
across many fields.

Speaker 2: Totally.

I mean, I know we have to stop
it here.

I could talk to you for so much
longer on this, but this has

been phenomenal and I think the
only thing I have to respond to

that is that my definition of
art, like what makes art great

for me, is it helps people see
in a new way, like it helps

people see something they
haven't seen before, and it

helps usher in, usher that in,
and so I think you just summed

that up beautifully, like when
you said, I was like, oh, it's

literally what great art does.

It helps you see, uh, something
in a, in a way in which you

hadn't been able to see it
before, in a way we hadn't

discovered.

Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's a
great.

That's kind of a great place to
end, because that actually is

like yeah, it's a lovely link
between the two yeah, totally so

well, we should, definitely we
should keep talking because

there's much more to unpack and
I'm sorry I have to, I have to

head off, but it's been really
lovely chatting with you and got

the wheels turning in my brain
a bit.

So thank you for the props.

Speaker 2: Totally for sure,
yeah.

And lastly, before you go and
to respond, yes, there's so many

more things that I want to talk
to you about, and I hope to see

you in New York.

Yes, for sure.

So I guess, just lastly, if you
were to just part of always at

the end.

Speaker 1: Where?

Where do you want people to go
if they want to learn more about

you, your work?

Where?

would you want to point them to
first.

Oh, that's an easy question,
you know why.

Do with an easy one.

My website is always a good
place, so it's just

SashaStylescom and it's, you
know, twitter and Instagram.

I try to keep like, pretty
updated with various projects

that I'm working on and events
that are going on, so I just add

Sasha Styles on both of those.

And yeah, I mean if, for anyone
who might be in New York or

coming to New York for NFT NYC,
there'll be a couple events that

I'm participating in there, so
I'll be posting about those on

social media and it'll be great
to obviously see you there and

see anybody else who wants to
swing by and we can continue

some of these convos in person.

Speaker 2: I'd love nothing more
.

Well, sasha, I'm going to let
you go and get to the rest of

your life here tonight, but
again, this has been phenomenal

and just really appreciate not
only your time but like just

willingness to go down some
tangents and some rabbit holes

and just think through some like
big questions that not only

have I've had but clearly you've
had as well.

So I just really appreciate
your time to like explore those

with me.

It's been an incredibly
insightful chat.

Speaker 1: Likewise Truly a
pleasure.

Thank you so much you.