Speaker 1: this technology
enabled participants from all

over the world to have access to
a market and people which has

never happened in the history of
art or culture or technology

before.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Curated, a
series of conversations with

the people shaping culture and
technology of the new internet.

This is a podcast series
produced by Schiller, the most

trusted marketing media and
consulting firm in crypto.

Before we jump in with today's
guest, we want to make it clear

that this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be considered
investment advice.

I am your host, buna, and today
I'm joined by Mikol, previous

co-founder of Vertical Crypto
Art and presently a curator at

Fellowship Trust.

Mikol is a true visionary in
how technology can redefine art,

as well as serve as a bridge
between emerging artists to the

broader world of digital media
and the fine art community.

Gm Mikol, how are you?

Speaker 1: GM, I'm good.

Yeah, I'm good.

How about you Good?

Speaker 2: Yeah, we were
chatting a little bit offline

but I'm doing well, got a nice
cup of coffee and just excited

to kick off my day.

I know it's around afternoon
for you, but for me it's kind of

nice to have an interview
kicked off right in the morning.

It sets the tone for the day.

So I hope you've had a good one
so far and welcome.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Yeah, no, I had a great morning
actually.

I went for a run and now I'm
yeah, I'm ready to have a nice

chat, yeah totally Well, I'd
love to, yeah, we'd love to,

just maybe dive in.

Speaker 2: There's a.

I always like, you know,
everyone, the reason we get out

of bed in the morning speaking
of mornings is, you know,

there's got to be a, there's got
to be a.

Why.

So, um, I'd always.

I just like to know for you,
you know uh, cause you play in.

Speaker 1: You play in crypto,
you play in art.

So why crypto art?

Um, good question, uh, the why
is actually something that I

think um keeps like changing and
evolving.

I've been, you've been kind of
like playing really in crypto

art, for it's going to become
five years, which is quite a

long time, if I think about it
actually, and it's wild because

it's gone so fast and, at the
same time, so much has happened

since I kind of started.

Um, I think, initially, what,
what got me really excited about

, uh, crypto art and kind of
like art on blockchain and the,

the combination of like a
decentralized technology and an

ecosystem and culture, was this
idea of being a little bit like

underground like artists were
resetting the tone of what art

or the art world is and like
reshaping uh rules according to

what they wanted to, and, uh, I
really found that fascinating,

like it's something I kind of
like thrive, let's say, even in

my personal life, um, in like
underground culture like I, I,

you know, like music and raves,
and I've always I've always like

kind of like felt a bit of
connection with things that go,

you know, beyond what is the
status quo and like normality

and what people think it's, like
, you know, normal and standard.

And I just found it really,
really interesting when I got

into it, like when I discovered
it, that, you know, artists were

setting their own tone and like
setting their own rules, and I

was like, well, this is a real
game changer.

You know, like.

It's a real opportunity for
anyone really, not only artists

and creators, uh, but you know
somebody like me who is not

fundamentally like an artist per
se, um, to also kind of like

shape and do and kind of like
play by my own rules and um, and

that's kind of and it's
ultimately it's still really the

why, uh, because I I think even
now, uh, even if it obviously

the space has become a lot
bigger and a lot more populated

and maybe even in certain ways,
more standardized to a certain

extent, um, there's still this
kind of like frill of everything

being so nascent and new that
you are still able to shape and

create and do things that you
want in your way without any

like set kind of like boundaries
or set rules.

Let's say, Totally.

Speaker 2: I love that answer
and I think in my own way, I can

very much relate to that as far
as like, kind of being a little

bit on the edge of everything
and kind of not wanting to,

whether it's not wanting to go
with the status quo, or like

looking beyond the status quo,
or there's always been something

that's fascinated me with kind
of the edge cases, you know, the

edge cases of the world, and
that's really what made me fall

in love and I think it's really
interesting to hear, you know.

And the thing that I thought of
is, you know, I think that

there's a few moments in history
where, like, the rules can be

rewritten, and that's, I think
what I heard there is that it's

just, it's an opportunity for
artists, first and foremost, to

rewrite the rules.

But also, you know, if you look
, if what I've been realizing on

a on a bigger scale is that
it's been allowing the entire

world to rewrite the history of
finance, you know, and what we

can really do, uh, with a
decentralized technology, and

that you know, uh, it's really
it's.

It's kind of cumbersome to
think about it on that scale

because it just, quite frankly,
it just makes my head hurt and

art is easier to look at.

Um, you know, um, but I think
that that's very much.

You know.

I really loved hearing that
because it it taps into kind of

the essence of like, you know,
even though I, even though, like

, we're still incredibly um,
like there have been places that

have matured here and there
have been places like the in

spite of how crazy and wild this
industry is like there have

been levels of maturity from
where we were in, like, let's

say, you know, 2019, 2020, 2021,
you know things like that.

Um, so, yeah, it's sometimes
it's frustrating to to to look

at where we're still at.

So, yeah, it's sometimes it's
frustrating to look at where

we're still at, but there has
it's hard to argue that there

hasn't been a lot of progress
since then, you know.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

It's funny because sometimes I
feel like it's kind of like a

paradox of like maturing but
also then still having like

situations and like moments and
things that happen that are so

like completely like out of this
world, where you're like,

obviously the space is still so
new and nascent because, like

things, like you know, I don't
know, mean coin mania that is

happening in the last couple of
days, like you know, know it's

kind of interesting and and and
I think, like you touched on

something that is actually quite
quite even more like

interesting to me, which is the
well, I think what crypto art

kind of enabled as well is the
participation of a lot of

different players, whether it's
artists, curators, collectors,

galleries, like all sorts of
kind of like different

ecosystems to be part of a wider
something and especially within

the art world and I don't come
from, like I haven't studied art

, but I have been around the art
world before crypto arts, let's

say, and you know, coming from,
that it is a very closed, very

closed ecosystem and you know it
still is.

To be honest, you know the
contemporary and traditional

arts, uh like areas are very um
in a way like elitist and kind

of like, you know, stuck up and
um, and I think, like what's

been very exciting and
interesting to me and kind of

also why I also chose to do
certain like projects and create

certain ecosystems within
Vertical was that this

technology and the potential of
this technology enabled

participants from all over the
world to have access, at least

have access to a market and
people, which has never happened

in the history of art or
culture or technology before.

And that is like, if you think
about it, it's quite

groundbreaking.

Yeah, If you think about it,
it's quite groundbreaking and

interesting because it allows
and enables and creates ways in

which people can interact
through culture and through art

with a variety of different
practices, ways, languages,

different practices, ways,
languages Like it still blows my

mind to be honest that I can
like go on Twitter and literally

I have people that I speak to
from all over the world yeah,

Like everywhere and I'm
collecting, you know, art or

curating art, or working with
artists that maybe live in like

Kazakhstan or Iran or the
tiniest like island in Indonesia

, Like it's.

It's wild and exciting at the
same time.

Speaker 2: It really.

Yeah, I mean, you touch on a
great point because, like one of

my, you know, like I've met so
many friends in so in so many

different time zones that, like
I, some of them, I didn't even

see their face until after we
had spent a lot of time hanging

out together on Twitter or on a
Twitter space or in a pod or

whatever the case may be, over
the phone.

Um, yeah, so I think you
touched on something really

really important in in the.

I guess the plugging into a
global market, uh, in comparison

to the more traditional art
world.

I guess the plugging into a
global market in comparison to

the more traditional art world.

Now I have a question for you
as someone who was involved in

the arts and culture before you
came over here and then now

you've spent a lot of time not
only participating but building

here and would love to maybe get
into vertical crypto art here

in just a moment.

But one thing that I've noticed
as the space has matured is,

you know, while artists I've
seen some artists uh almost look

at being plugged into a global
market as becoming a bit

overwhelming, you know, and
becoming a bit like, oh my god,

you know, like I wish I didn't
have access to this.

Sometimes you're like wanting to
just make art or wanting to,

you know, have uh, someone be
their marketer, or like like,

wow, maybe handling all of this
is like a lot more than I really

anticipated, um, and I'm
running out of bandwidth, um, so

I, I look at, I look, I see,
cause I see both sides, like I

see, you know, the, the, the,
the blank canvas that a lot of

artists can create, not only,
you know, with their work, but

just on a conceptual basis with
community.

It unlocks the doors to a whole
new level of access to people.

But sometimes, you know, maybe
it's just, you know, some of the

short-term pain during parts of
the market.

But how have you seen, at least
with the artists that you've,

you know, that you've been
supporting, that you've helped

or that you've maybe shepherded
or take, you know, kind of

helped, uh, evolve, you know,
are those some of the same

concerns or what?

I guess?

What are some of the main
concerns from your perspective

as far as being, you know,
plugged into this global

community?

What are some of the more
overwhelming aspects?

Speaker 1: Let's open the
Pandora box.

So many concerns, um, it's,
it's hard, because I feel like,

um, there's quite like I, I'm
I've become quite vocal about

this actually but like,
especially especially after you,

you know not kind of like
representing a company anymore,

which, in many ways, I feel like
you know it also allows me to

kind of like be a bit more vocal
about what I actually think but

um it's.

It's kind of it's not an easy
space to navigate from all sides

, like it's not just the artists
, actually, that find it hard,

it's even like the galleries and
the curators and the collectors

as well.

But mostly I think, um, what is
like very, I think what is like

very overwhelming, like let's
talk about it from an artist's

perspective, at least in my
opinion, and then I can go on.

What was overwhelming for me,
like as a curator and a

gallerist, it's that you can
basically like do anything and

everything At the same time.

You're faced with a continuous
and constant like feedback loop

that never stops.

So every single move, every
single act, every single work,

every single aspect of your like
practice is, in a way,

scrutinized, because as soon as
you put it on the blockchain,

obviously you know it becomes,
it's on a decentralized public

ledger, so it becomes visible
and usually it's on sale as well

, and you have this especially
for artists.

You have this immediate like
constant like feedback, which

you know, which it either sells
or not, and if it doesn't, then

obviously it's a really bad work
, which is not the case.

We have been accustomed in this
space to think about whether

something is good or bad in a
very, very, very short timeframe

, yeah, and with, like, a very
immediate feedback loop.

And this, I think, creates a
lot of pressure on artists.

And actually the same pressure,
in a different way, is

translated to curators and
galleries, because when you're

putting up a show, when you're
working with anyone, you know

you obviously want it to do the
best it can, because you want

the artists to be happy, because
you want your business to do

well, because you want people to
see that you are doing a good

job, and when that doesn't
happen, immediately it's like a

rollercoaster.

Immediately it's like it's like
a roller coaster.

You know, you're, you're.

I felt I was on a constant ride
, like up and down, up and down,

and there's this like
overarching sense of like am I

doing enough?

Am I doing well?

Is this good enough?

Is this, you know, is this
actually shaping or moving or

changing or kind of like in
certain ways helping the

ecosystem as well?

And it's draining you know, and
exhausting.

And I think on top of that there
is also kind of a bigger

problem, which is the way that
curators and galleries have been

perceived for the longest time
within the contemporary art

world and I think, like
translated into crypto art of

this almost like bad middleman
or like useless middleman.

You know it's somebody who's
just trying to take money from

you or take a cut and we don't
want that.

Yeah, exactly, and I think that
has in many ways ruined, you

know, the way that artists and
curators and galleries can

actually collaborate and work
together in really meaningful

and powerful ways.

And another problem.

Speaker 2: I'll just go full in
yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely,

I'm here for it.

Speaker 1: Artists have so much
choice for anything, for

platforms, for you know, ways
that they can do things, for

drops that they can do, for ways
in which they can do drops, and

it's, on the one side, very
exciting but on the other hand,

very confusing Sure, yeah, for
anyone.

So when I think, for example,
or when I speak to like trad art

collectors or just people that
are not actively participating

in the space, they're very
overwhelmed, and rightly so,

because it is a decentralized
ecosystem.

We face the problems of it
being a decentralized ecosystem

and artists are going from one
thing to another with sometimes

not maybe such a clear direction
which confuses them, confuses

us, confuses collector, and it
kind of creates this general

like mess, which I think is a
little bit what the current

status of the art space is right
now, if I have to like view it

from my perspective it's I mean,
from even conversations that

I'm having with a lot of artists
there's a lot of confusion.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you touched on
a lot of great points there and

it's going to be hard to just to
pick one at a time to go down

the rabbit hole.

I mean, you and I'm glad you
touched on the opposite side of

the coin and I think it's just
confusing.

And I think the most
interesting I think I guess if I

could pinpoint a lot of the
confusion is, you know, I don't

think we were really designed
for these quick feedback loops

Like the feedback loop is insane
, you know, and the feedback

loop as technology, just as a
whole, like if you want to even

like take out the niche industry
that we're in, you know the

feedback loop as technology has
grown has gotten exponentially

faster and it's almost
exponentially overwhelming at

times to be able to deal with it
and process it and make sure

that you're like actually
understanding what's happening,

and sometimes you just don't
have at least for me, I don't

have the time to understand
everything that's happening all

the time.

So you touched on some great
points and it and it makes sense

like why artists sometimes can
maybe go in like a very

different direction and not and
maybe be a little lost or maybe

you know like not know like
where to say, meant their work,

or like what platform?

Or, like, you know, wanting to
have a cohesive, you know,

visual language, but not wanting
to be trapped into you know a

certain uh style, um, and be
boxed into like, hey, this is

the token artist for this type
of work.

You know, um, that's at least
some of the feedback that I've

gotten that specifically that
last part, um, but specifically,

you know, I'm glad that you
brought up the point of of

gallerists and people that are
wanting to maybe participate but

maybe just don't.

Yeah, it's just hard to keep up
with.

Like, how do you, how do you
trust what platform is right?

Like, how do you?

You know there's there's levels
of trust in an artist as well,

and I think we saw that, um,
especially, if I'm being honest,

especially during, like the
open edition season, uh, last

year.

You know that definitely left
like a really bad taste, uh, I

know in my mouth was with the
way that happened, um, and I

know with a lot of other people.

And so how do you establish, you
know, uh, trust on both ends?

And how do you?

What's this?

What's this like little fine
line balance between, like,

artists having complete freedom
to do what they want but also

having, you know, uh, also kind
of having collectors be able to

um and it's not control is not
the right word, but just kind of

have some like ways to like I
don't know trust what's

happening, you know, without,
without spending all of their

waking time here, cause I think
that that's the that that's the

issue for me.

Is that, like the people who
get it like we live and breathe

this 24 hours a day, is that
like the people who get it like

we live and breathe this 24
hours a day, like people who

have lives outside of this, like
you can't, it's hard to keep up

, and if you don't, if you're
not here all day on Twitter 16

hours a day, you miss it and you
can feel left out.

Yeah, I guess is what I'm
getting at there.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's
totally and it's one of the

reasons why I feel like there's
such a disconnect between kind

of like, let's say, the outside
world and the inside world that

we're in, and I feel like that's
wrong to a certain extent.

You know, like you shouldn't
really feel like you're missing

out if you spend a couple of
days away and actually like I've

, you know, because I've stepped
back from, like, my position as

a CEO, like I had stepped away
for even more than a couple of

days, and it's interesting
because it actually like allowed

me yeah, of course I might've
missed things, but like it

allowed me to just like see
things from a very different

like perspective, you know, and
like with a very different like

angle, and also like without
this like rush.

You know I used to.

Obviously, you know, when
you're building a business and

I'm sure you you can relate to
that as well with schiller like

you really feel like if you're
not there all the time, you are

going to miss something that is
truly important for whatever it

is that you're doing, and I feel
like to some extent, is what

everyone feels, like artists
connect.

Anyone, anyone who's
participating in the space feels

that, but ultimately I don't
actually think that's true and

um, and, and I think it, it kind
of hurts us all to think that

way, especially artists, you
know.

I think some of the struggles
that I hear are you know, I

cannot focus on my practice
because I'm constantly

surrounded by, you know, the
inputs and outputs of Twitter or

of social media, or of what I
should be doing or what I should

be tweeting or what I should be
talking about.

And at the same time, when
artists are focusing on their

practice and kind of not, you
know, participating in maybe

like a thousand different
Twitter spaces, they're being

like pointed the finger at
saying, oh, but he's not, you

know, he's not an active
participant in this space.

Like it's very toxic.

You know, to a certain extent I
don't want to be like all too

much of a downer, but it is a
very toxic ecosystem to certain

levels and I think you know,
collectively, like we should

probably try to like move away a
little bit, like I think,

especially within, I'm very like
active and kind of like more

present within, like the art
kind of Twitter ecosystem and I

feel like there's such a divide,
like a divide and a difference

between, like the crypto trading
meme, coin degens way in which

you know they approach the
ecosystem, and then the way that

actually, like artists and a
lot of like really thoughtful

and engaging and interested
collectors are approaching the

space.

And I'm more, more and more
seeing this divide as time goes

on and as the space grows, which
I think is very good and very

healthy, because one thing is
trading coins and, you know,

trying to make money which, by
the way, there's absolutely

nothing wrong with that and
actually it's great and the

other is kind of collecting art
and engaging with artists who,

by the way, are human beings,
beings and you know, building,

maybe potentially like
collections that will stand the

test of time, that might go into
museums that might become very,

might have an investment thesis
behind them, you know, so on

and so forth, and it's just, I
think, a different approach and

should be differentiated because
it's not the same.

Speaker 2: It's absolutely not
the same.

You're very right.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's not and
there's.

Yeah, you bring up some great
points there, because that at

times, or at least one one thing
, that so one thing that I

noticed and I'm gonna be very
like, like I think I'm gonna

tweet this soon, but this, this
podcast, won't be out for a

couple weeks, but I'll say it
here as well.

I also think that I see a lot of
takes on the timeline,

specifically in whether it's on
the collector side or the artist

side.

I see it just in the art
community in general A lot of

kind of like looking down on
meme culture and like meme coins

and like the financial side of
crypto, like, like, oh, like,

you know, I'm just creating this
or like I'm just like buying

art while you're just
degenerately gambling, and it's

like I, I, I see the the like,
the argument, but at the same

time, it's like it, while there
are different verticals within

this new industry that we're
playing in, or this new

technology that we're playing in
, like it's all part of the

culture at the end of the day.

You know, um and I just look at
that and that's one of the

things that I just I find a
little bit bothersome, at least

for my opinion, cause it's like
you know not, we're all here to.

You know, obviously we have to
make money or we don't.

You know, obviously we have to
make money or we don't.

You know we don't eat, and
obviously a lot of us see the

financial opportunity to make a
lot more money than the

traditional system.

As I mentioned earlier, it's not
only a way to rethink art and

collecting and digital objects,
but it's an entirely new way to

rethink finance and kind of get
ahead of the current system that

, quite frankly, is really hard
to understand.

You know, ironically enough,
that crypto is easier to

understand in a very strange,
convoluted way, but I just

noticed that a lot of like
opposing and it's sometimes

people are at each other starts
with that, and there are artists

that I've noticed that have
started to like lean into the

opposite side of finance.

You know, like the side of
finance or the side of meme

coins or the side of you know,
like just just the tech in

general.

You know like the side of
finance, um, or the side of meme

coins or the side of you know,
like just just the tech in

general.

You know, um, and I've been
noticing it like.

That to me is like it's so
comfy, you know Cause.

It's like, oh cool.

They're like playing with every
part of the space.

They're exploring everything
that this space has to offer and

, like you can you can know this
.

Being a startup founder like, uh
, you have your job description

and then you have like the 20
other things that are not part

of your job description but you
need to do because you're the

one to do it, and I look at that
kind of as a way of like how

this space functions.

It's like if we're still early
to this thing, and like you come

with your job description, you
come with your talent, you come

with your skillset, but, like I
think it's also so important to

like really at least make a
conceded effort to like try to

learn about, maybe, where some
of the people that are buying

the arts money comes from.

You know Cause a lot.

You know what I mean.

So, yeah, I just wanted to like
touch on that, cause it's

something that like it's very
like.

It's a moment in time that I'm
currently experiencing that

feeling right, totally.

Speaker 1: Actually, you bring
up an interesting point, because

there's also a very unique kind
of movement that has happened,

which is not just artists being
able to participate in the art

ecosystem, but also new
collectors Sure yep, also new

collectors like new collectors,
being able to participate in

collecting art and maybe even
learning how to love art, which

is probably something that they
have not been exposed to before,

and that is like probably one
of the most exciting, I think,

for me and I've spoken about
this quite a bit before as well,

like, even tweeted about this
like it's probably one of the

most exciting parts of this
ecosystem that we have new,

newly like created collectors,
let's say, that have learned how

to appreciate art and have made
a like, a taste for themselves

within this ecosystem, and so
you know, wherever it is that

they're making their money, you
know.

Great like, good for them, you
know, and if it's trading meme

coins, you know, let's have it.

Like it's.

I don't see it as a kind of
like, looking down on you know,

the, the, let's say, the, the,
the trading or the trader.

I actually see it as as an
opportunity, and I think I

tweeted about this last, uh,
last week, like this if people

are, you know, making money in
this moment in time, whether

it's through, you know, trading,
meme coins or flipping NFTs or

whatever, what we've seen in the
past is that a lot of that

liquidity has actually then
transferred and translated into

some not everyone, because not
everyone would like to collect

art but some have then really
poured a lot of that liquidity

and a lot of that money and a
lot of that love as well into

supporting artists.

I think, like Deez is a great
example of this and many more of

that nature as well, and I
think that's even more exciting

to kind of like learn how and
see and admire um collectors,

new collectors create themselves
within the space and support,

you know, culture and also like
navigate their taste, uh,

through ecosystem as well, which
is, I don't know.

To me it's like it is is really
exciting, like I work quite a

bit with, like or obviously talk
, but also like work, even

recently with some collectors on
a one-to-one basis, and it's

just very interesting to
especially, like you know, trad

art collector, but mostly a lot
of like, natively, like digital

art collectors, and it's just
really like cool and exciting to

see how a lot of them are so
passionate about what they're

doing and how they're building
and who they're supporting.

And, yeah, I don't know, I feel
like a lot of the times, maybe

even us and I'm probably like I
can blame myself as well for it,

you know think a lot about how
can we get, like, the trad art

collectors in or how can we get
the contemporary art roles, and

I feel like we have so much
opportunity as well, just where

we are, to even like acknowledge
the people who are here and

like bring them in as well
within the art ecosystem Because

, for example, like I've
sometimes I go around like

Twitter spaces that have nothing
to do with art and are just,

you know, mainly about trading
and so on.

I like to, you know, be around
those ecosystems just to know

what's going on.

And I've spoken to a lot of
these people, even like IRL, and

in the same way that they feel
like that, we feel you know, you

know, oh, you know, they're
just trading meme coins.

They feel like, oh, you know,
these people are doing art and

like I don't really understand
it and I don't really know how

to approach it you know, so it's
kind of funny that it.

It's almost like yeah the.

You know, the coin flips in a
way and it's like we feel like

the trad art is not accepting us
and maybe in the same way, like

that community feels like they
don't know how to get into, like

the art world on blockchain,
totally.

Speaker 2: Totally so.

Let me ask you a question here.

This is a hypothetical or, you
know it may it may change as

time goes on, but do we need, in
your opinion, um, do we really

need to focus our time on
onboarding new trad art

collectors or spend more time on
people that are just naturally

in the ecosystem, kind of like
converting you know, maybe not

converting, but it's it, but
it's a dirty word that I still

feel like gross about from, like
the traditional business world,

but you know what I'm talking
about.

Like should we feel like like
when it comes to like where we

spend our time, because time is
the most valuable resource we

have.

You know, is it because there's
this barrier where, like you

know, when people already
understand digital money, it,

there's this barrier where, like
you know, when people already

understand digital money, it's
easier to understand digital

objects?

Like it's easier to understand,
like you know, art, for example

, or NFTs, but like that, that
chasm to like from from fiat to

digital currency, is like a
pretty big one.

But the chasm from digital
money to digital art or digital

ownership, like, to me it's a
smaller bridge to cross.

So I'd love to maybe know, like
you know, I know we've talked

about, and you've spent a lot of
time, even prior to this,

working in the, in the tried art
world and being a curator and

being an art dealer.

You know, I guess, just for you
personally, you know is it is

it more fruitful to spend your
time focusing on on the, the

bigger world, or continuously
maybe just fostering what we

have, and then the people will
figure it out?

I guess is the hypothetical I
have for you.

Big question and good question.

Speaker 1: I think about this a
lot myself, to be honest, so I

don't know if I have a yes or no
answer but I have kind of like

a reasoning for growth.

so with the, let's say, natively
kind of like crypto people, um,

the gap or like the challenge
is making them understand that

art is not just like, it's not.

Art is not a mean coin and art
is not a flip or it can be a

flip, but the beauty of art is
also like the cultural relevance

that it will have in time and
the support that you can give to

artists in kind of like
collecting work.

So I think that is the biggest
challenge.

So when I speak to some of
these more natively kind of like

crypto traders, they
immediately want to know what is

the potential flip or money
that they can make.

Got it Right, and I think
that's the challenge coming to

try and educate them in that way
.

On the other side, with like,
more contemporary art and trad

art collectors, on the other
side, with more contemporary art

and trad art collectors, the
challenge is making them

understand the value of digital
assets itself.

Like why should it be a digital
asset?

Why is this important?

Why should I be collecting in
this way?

Because they already know about
everything else.

They already, you know, support
the arts in different ways, but

they're just kind of like more
focused on understanding why the

technology parts and why is it
important for me?

So in a way, it's both two.

the two are very challenging
either either way um, I think,

like probably for for the way
that I, you know kind of, let's

say, operate or like my, what I
am interested in.

I really love to like see when
somebody that is maybe coming

from the crypto trading world
like falls in love with art,

like I think it's just beautiful
yeah and I have a lot of, like

you know, collector friends that
you know have done exactly that

, like recently in november, one
of the the last exhibition we

did with Vertical was with a
collector named Blockbird on

Twitter, and it was done
together.

So we were showing some of his
collection and then showing some

new works and I feel like he
has an incredible collection,

first of all and he doesn't come
from art at all like he was.

You know he he's like an
investor, a trader, you know

like flipped a lot of nfts back
in 2021, made, you know,

substantial, like capital, and
then kind of fell through the

art blocks a rabbit hole, and so
on and so forth.

Yeah, and just you know, became
so passionate about the arts and

obviously you know has
incredible taste as well, and

you know, working together with
him in an exhibition, you know,

where somebody can really see
even from his perspective

because obviously he'd never
done like a physical, irl

exhibition what it means to you
know.

Pour your heart and love in
creating like an ecosystem and a

space and a place for artists
to be happy with how their work

is being presented, but also for
people like just random people,

you know, guests and audiences
to appreciate the work as well,

was really, really unique and I
loved it.

I loved that experience and I'd
love to do more of that, and so

maybe for me, like, what kind
of fires me up is more getting

you know the crypto traders,
like into art, rather than the

other way, rather than you know
the trad art.

But yeah, I haven't given you
like an answer, I just said what

for me is maybe more
interesting.

Speaker 2: And that's.

There was no right or wrong way
to answer that.

I mean, it's that was a, like I
said, a hypothetical, and I'm

glad you, I'm glad you went
there, cause it's it's.

I often find myself with that
dilemma of you know, if art

history is open again, you know,
like, if we're just going to

say that, um, cause I think it
is right now, um, it's pretty

easy to to find reasons to
support that, um, it's like you

know, while there.

I look at this from two sides
because, like, on one hand, we

need more people, but on the
other hand, I think that there

is so much, even though we have
a smaller subset of people here.

Uh, you know, you have people
who are like, at least while

we're early.

You know, like I should, I
should preference that at least

while this technology has not
been widely adopted it's.

You know, it's kind of like
when I talk to my friends about

it, that just don't get it early
, not necessarily that don't get

it, but don't have an interest
to get it Like I just don't

spend my time with it.

You know, like I'm just like
it's.

It's something that, like, if,
like, I just don't spend my time

with it, you know, like I'm
just like it's.

It's something that like, if
you're not at least a my, if you

don't have like at least a
minutia of curiosity, like I'm

not going to spend my time doing
this because I could be

spending my time kind of like
engaging with other people and

the way you were talking about
and I love that story and I like

literally pulled I can't
believe I wasn't following it.

He was following me and I just
like pulled up his gallery page

and, like he is, he has got
quite, yeah, quite, the

collection, um, yeah, yeah, a
lot of my favorite artists here,

uh, and it's really really,
really cool to see, and I'm glad

that like that's like super
engaging.

It's cool to hear that story
from someone who's like deeply

involved, uh, in everything that
you've been involved in.

Um, kind of hear that Because,
when you zoom out, on one hand,

crypto is so ridiculous that I
couldn't not pay attention to it

after a time.

And there's parts of me that
like why would we pander to

people that are trying to pander
us to the real world, when this

is the farthest thing from it?

And there's a reason why this
is different and we're not

trying to make this like
everything else.

Uh, you know.

So it's like there's one hand
where, like, you need to cater

to some of the people, to
onboard them a little bit, but

on the other hand, it's kind of
fun to just be absolutely absurd

and like watch people figure it
out, you know, and like it's,

there's a lot of fun in that, um
, and I don't know.

So I just wanted to to comment
on that because it's a really

cool story and I'm happy that
you were able to have that

experience with Blackbird and I
love that.

So I guess I want to move
forward here a little bit.

There's a tweet that you put
out the other day that really

got me thinking and I'd love to
just maybe just chat this

through on an open discussion.

What is the?

You know, and I'd love to just
maybe just chat this through on

an open discussion, like what is
the difference for you between

an art patron and an art
collector?

You tweeted it yeah, I did.

Speaker 1: I did definitely.

I don't think that was
appreciated very much oh, it was

by me, for sure.

Speaker 2: That's why.

That's why I'm bringing it up,
yeah because I very much, I very

much resonate with it so the
thing is like there's for me

it's like quite interesting to
see.

Speaker 1: You know it's.

It's actually.

First of all, I should say that
like it's very exciting to see

that funds are popping up which
are focused on collecting

digital arts, like Like that is
amazing.

first of all, and it gives a
very strong signal to you know

other more financial vehicles,
let's say financially focused

vehicles that this is a
worthwhile investment, which

obviously is a great thing for
the space and for the artists

and for everyone.

So, like you know, want to like
make sure that that is super

clear and I absolutely believe
that.

But at the same time, I do
think that there is a little bit

of like misunderstanding or
just misjudgment of what it

means to be a patron of the arts
, which doesn't necessarily mean

that you are actually investing
or like putting money behind

someone or something and the
difference between you know, I

think an investment fund and a
patron is, and some can be both,

but I think that the definition
is that an investment fund is

investing with the kind of
mission and goal to then have an

ROI on their collected works
and assets to be able to resell

them in the future, which is
great, perfect.

A patron doesn't necessarily
have that angle.

The way that patrons think and
operate is with usually the sole

purpose, to be a almost like a
kind of like a guidance and and

and a supporter and a.

Um, how can I say like a, a
yeah, like a supporter of a

specific artist or a specific
body of work, or you know, a

practice.

Speaker 2: Kind of like
evangelizing it.

Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly, and
they really, like they don't

just collect, they become almost
like an extension of, you know,

the artist itself.

Like I know of patrons that
work very closely with artists

mostly in the contemporary art
world, not really and some as

well, like within this ecosystem
, who become, like, you know,

almost like it becomes a
partnership and a friendship in

many ways and they advise them,
they talk to them, they do

exhibitions together.

They, you know, have a, a
relationship that helps the

artist mature in their practice
and they are supporting that in

the process.

Um, and and I think you know,
for example, like another

collector which I I believe uh
does this to a certain extent,

who is in our ecosystem, is Didi
.

He's on on Twitter and I think
he's also incredible collector,

amazing collection, but I've,
you know, I've seen him kind of

navigate and the way that he um,
just just the respect and like

the way that he has established
like friendships and

partnerships with a lot of
artists is, I think, like uh, an

example uh of someone who can,
you know, maybe be considered

like a patron of the arts within
our space and some who I would

probably like point to if
somebody would have to ask me

who is somebody that's doing
that Gotcha, and I think it's

important to like realize that
there is a difference and we

don't have enough patronage in
the space at all and I think

that's also why, you know,
artists struggle because

everything is always for sale
and they always need to sell

something.

Like you know, some patrons
also just support artists and

maybe, like doing an
installation without having any

you know financial outcome out
of it you know, you know

financial outcome out of it.

You know Um, and and obviously
like I'm not saying that

everybody should do this, like
absolutely not Um I think it

just it's just important to like
realize that when you talk

about patronage, yeah, you
should know what what that

actually like means, and I think
it's definitely something that

yeah, we're missing a little bit
, yeah, yeah, I mean, and

there's a.

Speaker 2: I'm glad you, yeah,
thanks for answering that.

It's a big question and it's
something that it can easily get

misconstrued because on, and I
guess I'm sure like the

definition over time has like
probably changed.

You know, like in the beginning
, I think there was a lot of

like before this and like
centuries ago, there's a lot of

art, more art patronage than
collecting Um, or maybe that's

just what we read in history
books, so that was more

well-documented Um, and we
didn't really get as much

insight, um, into just kind of
the, the people who maybe just

supported the work or like
flipped the work or whatever the

case may be, financially, and I
like that.

And I think that I just want to
riff on this a little bit

because I do this with a few.

There's a few artists that,
like I just, yeah, have a.

I just look at their work and
I'm like how the fuck are you

not like way more celebrated
than you are, you know?

And it's like, oh my God, um
and uh, it's, it's just while.

I haven't done exhibitions with
them yet, but it's, it's, it's

more of like um, it's just more
of like a making myself

available and like, uh, and and
and, being a sounding board or,

at the very least, just
consistently commenting and

quote, tweeting and retweeting
their work.

Uh, you know, because I believe
in it that much, you know, um,

and I think that can also be, uh
, that like can also be true, um

, that can also be like a
definition of like, of that

patron, um, patronage yeah,
absolutely, and it doesn't

necessarily mean that you're um,
that you should, you know, be

like collecting the work.

Speaker 1: You know, like
patronage can even be.

You know, spending two hours on
the phone with with an artist

and talking about what they want
to do next, or giving them, you

know, support in that way, like
that is also like patronage to

a certain extent, which you know
, I think, like we tend to

associate so much of everything
that we do with a transaction

because it is literally in our
face all the time.

Like the blockchain, I think,
brings this forward in a very

kind of like transparent and
brutal way, which, on the one

hand, is great, but, on the
other hand, of course, it has

its, you know, its downfalls and
the yeah, this kind of like

transactional, like way of
behaving between like two

parties or two people.

Uh, I think sometimes we forget
that, like it doesn't always

have to be like that.

Speaker 2: There's that doesn't
always have to be a transaction,

like a support and, uh, a
caring can also happen without

money being involved, right, you
know right, and it's, and it's

hard because, like how and this,
I think it just goes back to

like a life lesson of like
understanding people, um, and

understanding how people
function and how you know, uh,

interests work in the psychology
behind, just yeah, any anything

around a relationship.

It's.

I think it boils down to that
because there's, on one hand

like I don't respond to a lot of
dms because it feels so charged

that there's an ask behind what
they're, what they're reaching

out by.

Yeah, you know.

And then there's and and, on the
other hand, maybe an artist is

like early in their career and
they just don't know how to like

not do that and like.

I think there was a period of
my life where I just didn't know

how to like be a human and,
without expecting something in

return or like having it, having
a specific outcome, likes be

behind what I was asking, um,
and it's hard, like that's,

that's like at least the.

The challenge that I run up
against is that and I have a few

friends that really understand
that and there's a couple

artists that even aren't like.

They didn't start off as like
the great, like we didn't.

It was very, it was very much
like a scarce, you know, uh, not

scarce, but like it was minimal
contact.

But then, over time, you know,
one of us would take like it was

minimal contact, but then, over
time, you know, one of us would

take like a leap of faith and
say like, hey, like I don't want

.

I don't want you to take this
like in any way, shape or form.

This is just.

If you're open to feedback, I'm
down to give it, but please, at

the end of the day, it's your
own decision.

You know, type of type of type
of thing, and I think that it's

it's really hard to do that with
people and not Most people are

really bad at that.

I guess I would say it's easy
to not be good at it.

It's really hard to not put
that effort in that's backwards.

It's a hard goal to achieve, is
what I'm trying to say.

I only can have it with a few
people because it's just like

man, we all don't want to get
screwed.

We're all trying to like figure
this out.

We don't know what the fuck
we're doing.

You know, no one does, and if
they do, they're lying, you know

.

So it's a great conversation and
I'm happy that, like we're here

, and so one thing I maybe want
to change directions on and zoom

out a little bit is you know, I
know you.

Just you recently left as the
CEO of Vertical Crypto Art, you

know, and maybe, without like,
without getting too specific or

sharing what you want to share,
I guess would love to maybe know

, number one what was one of
your greatest accomplishments

there, or what is something that
you're most proud of after you

left?

And also, maybe, just like what
you were, like what you're,

what you're spending, your
greatest accomplishments there

or what is something that you're
most proud of after you left,

and also maybe just like what
you were, like what you're

spending your time on now.

Would love to know that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, wow.

Well, my biggest accomplishment
honestly like, without kind of

like patting myself too much on
the back, was everything we

built in like four and a half
years, I think, like from the

residency program, which truly
to this day, I don't think there

has been anything of that sorts
within the space that has

helped so many artists kind of
navigate and build a base for

their like practice and
knowledge within the crypto art

ecosystem.

And I think, probably, you know
, I to this day, I still get

like a lot of messages of
artists that I've been part of

the residency, that um that you
know worked, uh, that I worked

with and collaborated with, and
that are extremely like grateful

and thankful for everything
that we provided absolutely for

free, with no, like you know,
transactional interest

whatsoever, um, and I think that
that is that just like makes my

heart smile, to be honest, um,
and I think that that is that

just like makes my heart smile,
to be honest, um, and I'm very,

very, very proud of that work.

But also, like, just in general
, like I think we we built a

base um for supporting, like the
digital arts ecosystem in an

inclusive, um interesting,
nuanced um way.

That was is aimed at showing
you know what is, what is the

talent out there and how
important this moment in time is

and how important the prospect
of this ecosystem being global

and including a lot of this.

You know globality I don't know
if you can say that but like

this kind of like international
aspect of you know, the

decentralized art ecosystem into
the exhibitions that we were

doing.

I think it was always a very
much a labor of love in every

single way.

You know, we were not VC backed
and I think that probably

helped in many ways to see it,
to see things this way, and so,

honestly, I'm proud of
everything.

I'm proud of the residency, I'm
proud of what we did with Proof

of People, which I think was an
event that brought together so

many aspects of like digital
culture in a very fun, engaging,

inclusive, immersive,
interesting, interactive way

that allowed a lot of people to
meet each other for the first

time.

That you know I don't want to
be like super, like cheesy, but

I am really proud of it and I
would do everything, like you

know, a thousand times again in
exactly the same way.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Speaker 1: And yeah, and you
know, that's, that's, I think,

what, what I can say.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say
it's a huge and that was a

question that teed you up to be
a little corny and cheesy.

So you know that's my fault if
you felt that.

Yeah that was definitely on me
for doing that.

That was the whole purpose of
that question, because I think

it's really easy.

You know, some of the best
founders don't toot their own

horn and like.

It's like a great way to like
not, you know, like, compliments

, compliments and uh, insults go
down the same pipe.

You know, uh, they go down the
same drain, um, and so it's,

it's real easy to like.

You know be fearful of praise
and accomplishment, but I think

there's a, there's a bit of ego
involved.

That I know, at least with me
personally, it's hard to like

acknowledge and accept some of
the things that you know I have

done or that we have done.

So, uh, I like to like
challenge people cause, like,

some of my favorite people are
just like way too fucking humble

, um, and I, I try to, I try to
give them a, an excuse to, or or

a space to to not do that for a
moment.

Um, do that for a moment.

Um, cause I don't think it's.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, on one
hand, it's admirable, but it's

easy to like, not, it's easy to
overlook, you know, cause we do

so much and it moves so fast, uh
, and it's really hard to do so,

um, yeah, uh, yeah, Thanks for
it, thanks for doing that, um,

and would love to maybe know,
like right now, how are you, you

know, now that you've, you know
, now that you've, you know,

you've, you've parted ways, kind
of, how are?

Speaker 1: you spending your
time today and maybe what's

what's next.

So right now I definitely took a
little bit of a breather

afterwards and right now what
I'm doing is focusing on more of

like my let's say, like
freelance, kind of like my own

territorial practice.

So working with different
projects, different galleries,

different collectors in either,
you know, advising them or

curating for different
ecosystems, and also working a

little bit more closely with,
like certain artists on again

like this of like, let's say,
curator bar, you know, support

type of way.

Um, and taking yeah, just
taking, like I think for the

foreseeable future, that will
probably be me for a while.

Um, it allows me to also like
understand where the space is at

and what is needed as well.

And I'm not going to lie, I
think I am very much an

entrepreneurial soul at heart
and I do miss the adrenaline and

the ups and downs of running
your own business.

So I do foresee, probably in my
future, to do something again

within the space, within, you
know, like digital art, of

course, but for now, taking like
time to work more independently

and, you know, for others and
with others, rather than having

something on my own.

Speaker 2: I love that.

I feel like there's no, you
know, life goes in a lot of

different directions and there's
moments where we go super hard

and there's moments where we
probably take, you know, take

our foot off the gas for a
little bit and do a little, do a

little relaxing or do something
that's maybe not as intense,

and I think you owe that to
yourself and I'm really happy

you're doing that because, yeah,
this face can, like, this face

is brutal and can chew you up
and spit you out real fast, and

it's yeah, it's really hard to
stay on top of your P's and Q's

here.

So I just wanted to say, from,
like my perspective, it's really

cool to see, like, what you've
built the voice that you have

here.

I, to see, like what you've
built the voice that you have

here.

I think that I one thing I'm
really excited about um and this

definitely.

You know, there's a lot of
people that have been here for X

number of years and maybe been
through a cycle, maybe two, or

the people that have gone
through their first cycle and

now starting to speak up a
little bit more um, which I'm

really happy about, and I
noticed yourself, like you've

been very vocal um around a lot
of different various issues in

the space and, um, as someone
who's followed you for followed

you for a very short period of
time, you know, I very much

appreciate that, um, and I think
that's it's it's great to see

people finally doing that a
little bit more.

Speaker 1: You know, um you know
what I think was kind of um.

I remember I was on a Schiller
space actually I think it was

like a Friday.

You know, one of the vibes, the
kind of vibe, yeah yeah, yeah,

yeah.

And like we were chatting I
don't know if you remember like

you were on there as well and
like there was Deez on there and

I was just saying like how I
felt like I didn't really do a

lot of hot takes and like are
just like you know what I

remember, let's do it, you know,
and I tell you, I think I I

took that under um.

You know, like I took that uh,
really like closely and I was

like, yeah, I think I should
like start being a little bit

more vocal of what I think and
I'm actually, like you know, uh,

enjoying it.

I think people relate to it as
well.

Like you know, we I feel like
it's not, like you know know, a

hot take for farming engagement,
just like my thoughts, and I've

realized that it actually, yeah
, just like you know, not

everybody relates to them and
even if they don't like, it's

nice to have, you know, this
kind of like feedback, of

conversation, like actual
thoughtful conversation that you

can, that you can engage with
people online, which I think is,

you know, ultimately also what,
what makes you know Twitter

kind of like fun, is when you're
actually engaging in meaningful

conversations or somebody is
making you think about something

in a different way that you,
you know, you thought about

yourself or you expected to
think about it.

So, yeah, I'm enjoying that
myself, yeah, and so I need to

thank you guys for that.

Speaker 2: That's.

I remember that space vividly
and I I've I've been kind of

taking that approach at times,
but not to the extent that I,

that I'd probably like to.

But no, I, I really appreciate
you calling that out, cause that

was a great space and and Deez
is one of the best.

Uh, yeah, one of my, one of my
favorite people, and I'm glad

that, I'm glad you're doing it,
because I and I've chatted with

you, know a few of my other
friends and like when I, when I

bounce like a what I think is a
hot take off of them, they're

like it's not that hot, they're
like it's just, it's just honest

, like it's not, it's not like
even that spicy.

And I think it's so easy at
times to like it.

We're so disincentivized to
like share our honest opinion or

like.

I feel like there's this like
weird part of the mind that says

, like well, if I come off, what
if I come off this way?

You know what if I come off
that way?

But like most, like most of the
time, like the thoughts are

pretty like well thought out and
balanced and there's a reason

why I'm wanting to say something
, and it's not because it's just

to stir the pot, it's not
because, like it's just an

observation, multiple
observations that I've seen in

my reaction to those
observations is usually what

that is.

So have you, is that kind of
the experience that you've had?

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

And also, like you know, I
think we're conditioned to be

like, oh, if I say something
that I'm actually thinking, or

like it's honest and it's a hot
take.

But yeah, I totally agree, like
it's, it's not really, it's

just, like you know, a sincere
thought.

Um and and and and, and it's
interesting that, like we, we,

because everything like we go in
flows, especially with with

Twitter, you know, we tend to
follow like these, like flows of

, like, oh, it's a hot take, or
like now I need to say this and

I don't know like I feel, like
sometimes, like you end up like

conditioning yourself to
thinking that you should be

tweeting something because like
somebody else is tweeting that,

or like because the meta is that
, the meta is is that, and

slowly you kind of like I, I
realized that sometimes I was

like, oh, I don't really know
what to tweet, because I wasn't

really like just being myself,
you know.

And now it's like much more,
just yeah, just kind of like

tweeting whatever I think about
really at any given point.

Speaker 2: I think that's the
way.

Like I I, I think that I think
that's the way, like, I think I

think it's the way for sure.

So, um, thank you for leading
the way on that and I want to

leave as we wrap up here.

I want to leave you with one
kind of open-ended question,

something that I've thought
about a lot, and at least not

thought about a lot, but thought
a lot about recently.

I should put that caveat there
Is in the next.

Let's just say everything
happens here the way we want it

to like.

In the next, let's just say
everything happens here the way

we want it to like in the next
five to 10, maybe 20 years to 50

years.

How do you view museums in the
next let's just call it 20 years

?

Like what do you think a museum
looks like?

Does it look the same?

Does it look different?

How would you want to view?

What's your dream for a museum
in the next 20 years?

Speaker 1: Wow, very nice
question.

Nobody's ever asked me that
actually.

Um, I don't think they will
look the way that they do now.

Um, I think, actually like, I
think probably like with nft

paris I don't know if you
probably probably saw uh agoria

did uh the performance at Museo
del.

Se and his work was being showed
there and I think like that was

quite a pivotal moment, to be
honest, to really like realize

and kind of like understand that
even like big institutions and

kind of like historical
institutions, like museums, are

slowly learning and wanting to
embrace this more kind of like,

let's say, digital culture.

But also, I think probably what
we'll see is that I believe, in

the future, like there's gonna
be a lot more interactivity

within like these bigger
institutions and even with

galleries, I feel.

I think there's like there's
such a sometimes like a feeling

of being in a very cold place
when you're, you know, in a

museum or in a gallery, and I
think what, what might happen is

that you know, people will be
drawn, or like museums will be

drawn to bring in more of like a
participation within the

audience into what they're
showing and, um, and kind of

like seeing museums more as like
I don't want to say inclusive,

because I do think they are, but
like more, uh, less cold I

don't know how to explain less,
yeah, so I see that, uh, and I

think it's happening already um,
and then I also see like this

kind of mix of like art, but
even embracing like wider forms

of art which could be like music
or could be fashion.

You know, like, historically,
museums have been for the arts

you know, the fine, the fine
arts, and I feel like maybe in

the future this might change a
little bit and museums could,

you know, embrace more of a like
culture as a whole and like the

, you know the kind of like, of
like different cultures, whether

it's art and fashion or art and
music together, to kind of like

show what is, you know, the
contemporary culture that we're

experiencing now, which I think
is very blended.

By the way, I don't believe
that there's this, there will be

such a definition of fine art
as there has been in the past.

Speaker 2: I like that.

I'm going to leave it there.

I'm not going to add anything
to it because I think it's a

great place to end and I really
appreciate that answer and I'm

going to think about that for a
little while.

Yeah, well, Mikko, I really
appreciate it.

Speaker 1: And this has been an
awesome chat and thank and thank

you so much for spending uh,
not only your time with me today

.

Speaker 2: But just, yeah, I
really loved all the different

directions that this chat went
um and really appreciate your

thoughts here.

I loved it.

Thanks so much for hosting,
absolutely, um, just hang out

for a little bit.

We'll let it finish uploading
and then, uh, we'll, we, we'll

part ways, but I hope you have a
great rest of your afternoon,

slash evening and, yeah, thanks
again thank you, wuna have a

good one, so you.