Speaker 1: Attention is just
very, very quick moving.

We're constantly searching for
new ideas, for new concepts, for

new things that we can accrete
value to just through our

eyeballs.

Like paying attention to this
and 30 days is really a response

to those behaviors.

It's really about drawing scope
and focus to one thing, one

object, for one period of time
30 days and really getting folks

to kind of just sit with that
artist and that object and that

exhibition for a prolonged
period of time.

That we felt was required to at
least push back against some of

the behavior pattern that kind
of seems to exist in our space

around attention.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Curated, a
series of conversations with

the people shaping culture and
technology of the new internet.

This is a podcast series
produced by Schiller, the most

trusted marketing media and
consulting firm in crypto.

Before we jump in with today's
guest, we want to make it clear

that this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be considered
investment advice.

I am your host, buna, and today
I'm joined by Derek Edwards,

managing partner at the venture
firm CollabCurrency, co-founder

of Glitch Marfa Gallery and one
of the most respected thought

leaders in Web3.

Known for being able to see our
own corners, him and his team

have funded some of the most
successful blockchain

infrastructure, including
Bitcoin, ethereum and Solana.

Glitch has also pierced the
veil of the local art scene in

Marfa by curating some of the
most boundary-pushing artists in

Web3, including 0x113D, claire
Silver, def Beef, joe Pease,

emily Xie and many more.

Gm Derek, how are you?

Speaker 1: GM Derek, thank you
for putting this show on, for

having me on as a guest, and I'm
looking forward to catching up

and talking about all the things
.

Speaker 2: All the things.

Yeah, I mean, couldn't be.

Yeah, honestly, couldn't be
more excited.

I've, yeah, definitely had the
pleasure of listening to a few

podcasts you've been on, and
then you, you know, on our

building space where Fungie and
Ben Roy interviewed you.

That was a that was a fun one
to listen to.

So, not gonna lie, during that
time I was a bit jealous and I

was like man, man, I really want
to talk to this guy.

So, yeah, it's a treat to have
you on and, yeah, happy to hop

into things, man.

But I just want to give a brief
, you know, like one sentence,

just a brief intro, like, yeah,
derek Edwards is a managing

partner of Collab Currency,
co-founder of Glitch Martha,

overall thought leader in the
space and, just as I mentioned

offline, but happy to say that
publicly, probably one of my

favorite writers, minds and
thought leaders in the space.

So welcome man.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

I hope I can live up to some of
the kind words that you're

saying here.

I'll try.

I'll certainly try my best and
I'm either way looking forward

to this conversation.

Incredible man.

Speaker 2: Me as well.

I think let's just start with
something like just straight up

off the like, the easy to dive
into man, Like just how are you

spending your time today?

Speaker 1: Yeah, so the these
days.

Well, so I have a.

You mentioned I have a couple
of gigs I I think about and work

on a day to day.

The first is I run a fund
called Collab Currency.

We're an early stage crypto
venture fund.

We're actually in the process
of activating our fourth fund,

but we've been investing for a
long time in three prior funds,

a number of previous cycles, and
I guess the way we think about

the world at Collab Currency is,
you know, this technology stack

, these blockchains,
trust-minimized environments

these are, for a large part, you
know, now at the stage where we

can start building real
applications on top of them that

allow us to touch millions, if
not tens of millions, of users

over the coming years.

And what that means as early
stage investors is we want to

talk and work and invest in the
founders and the people that are

seeing the world the way that
we're seeing unfold and are

building things that we think
can become valuable categories

of product space over the coming
decade.

That can mean things that look
like companies that are doing

some similar job to be done in
Web2.

So you can think of maybe the
top companies by market cap in

the world.

It's you know, it's typically
it's through companies that

monetize some form of consumer
attention.

You know, apple does it through
hardware, microsoft does it

through business tools and
software.

We've got Google that does it
through search.

It has meta through social.

You can go through the list and
draw analogs from previous

categories of value and try and
find those same pockets of

product space here in crypto and
blockchains.

I think the other way to look
at it is that this is just a

completely different technology
stack, right?

So this is a way to build new
types of applications on

environments that are
permissionless and public and

composable, and you know the
objects are interoperable and I

will also be remiss to say that.

You know it takes a bit of
flexibility to kind of think

about where new categories of
value can emerge now that we

have such a different format by
which information can be written

, and so I would say most of my
time is spent managing the fund,

meeting with founders, working
with my investors.

We have five killer investors
now on the team at CloudCurrency

that are all kind of owning a
very specific vertical.

So my day job and where I spend
most of the bulk of my time is

on that.

At Club Currency you also
mentioned, I am a co-founder of

a project called Glitch Gallery.

This is a crypto art gallery.

Crypto art is one of my
favorite things in the world

right now.

It's a way for creatives and
artists to use this

permissionless database
structure to create new types of

artistic works.

And, as you draw kind of a line
from previous art movements,

it's very clear that technology
and blockchains broadly and and

kind of uh, you know the form
factor by which we're just

enjoying media today.

I think you know most of us are
spending 9, 10, 11 hours in

front of a screen uninterrupted.

It's just so obvious that the
next generation of talent in

creative fields are really going
to use these ingredients to

make creative works and implies
to fine art.

And so glitch is about
storytelling and exhibiting and

partnering and and working with
the artists who have both

pioneered and steward of the
movement but also are looking at

these ingredients today in
interesting ways.

That we think is pushing the
the the field.

And so I work very closely with
two folks Malta, who is a

curator with me at Glitch, and
Madison, who's the gallery

director.

The three of us run all the
products and programming and

exhibitions at Glitch, and so in
my limited spare time I do

quite a bit over there as well,
and then you know, I've got my

own kind of like fun personal
interests and things that I'm

always constantly researching
and tinkering with.

But anyway, I'm droning on, so
hopefully that's a good answer

to your first question there.

Speaker 2: Buna, yeah, man, I
mean I think the one challenge

of my job here is like picking
which thread to.

So hopefully that's a good
answer to your first question

there, buna.

Yeah, man, I mean I think the
one challenge of my job here is

picking which thread to pull on,
because there's so much here

that we could really go down,
and I mean, I think the one

thing that really stuck out just
going to start probably a few

different places, but with
Glitch, I think all of you guys

recently wrote like the 10 rules
for glitch gallery and that's

something that really, uh, stuck
with me.

And I think the first one is
just like, if it's fun, it's not

worth doing.

Uh, it's probably.

One is obviously my favorite um,
and I think that probably is a

baseline for a lot of the reason
why every one of us are here.

Like this is, as you mentioned,
like this is really hard work

uh, and like finding these
intersections where you know new

, new ways of thinking can
emerge and new uh ideas can be

implemented, like if this wasn't
fun, like none of us would be

here if there wasn't some sense
of joy, uh, to be able to do

this.

So, um, that's just like one
area that I was like super

compelled by Um and really kind
of curious.

Like you know, multi is one of
my like.

I'm pretty sure I found Malte
through you guys and then

started reading his own writing
as well.

But maybe we can just start here
.

This is just a rabbit hole I
wanted to go down and I was

curious about is you know, when
it comes to glitch, you know

what is?

You know what is maybe the
overall mission here?

And I'm just kind of curious,
like with the every 30 days

project that you guys are doing.

How do you guys decide, like,
what does the war room look like

?

How do you guys decide, like,
who comes on, uh, and, and how

you guys display them?

Speaker 1: yeah, so, uh, first
of all, thank you, um, the.

The 10 rules for glitch gallery
, uh was just as much for us,

the three of us, as it was for
for people who want to

understand kind of how we think
about the world unfolding at

Glitch and where we think the
important areas of attention

should really be placed.

And you, I mean, it was no
mistake that that first one was

like critical and so important
to us.

As, like a North Star, I think
I feel very lucky that I live in

a time where, in large part, we
get to kind of re-architect the

way the world works.

We now have kind of like these
emergent technologies that are

quickly growing to become quite
important and touching more and

more categories of value and
more and more verticals, and

more and more humans are
interacting with them and

they're so fundamentally
different in how they operate

and the types of values that
they provide for that we have an

opportunity to kind of like
change I know it sounds corny,

but like kind of change the
direction of the world in many

ways, and part of my view is,
like you know, like there's an

infinite amount of things that
one can do with that knowledge

and it's really important to
kind of like and this is going

to be different for everyone For
Glitch and for us at Glitch and

how we think about Glitch it's
really important for us to find

things that are motivating to us
because we find inherent

enjoyment and fun in doing those
things and we're excited to

wake up every day and kind of
work on a new problem because

it's motivating, because it's
fun and we enjoy it and we enjoy

working with each other trying
to tackle it.

So I would say that's very high
level, like a rule that we kind

of try we enjoy working with
each other trying to tackle it.

So I would say like that's very
high level, um, like a rule

that we kind of like try to stay
consistent with.

I think the specific question
you're asking is we had we've

launched two products so far.

Uh, the first product was a
year-long um series called every

30 days, and for 12 straight
months, every 30 days, we would

feature a crypto artist that we
felt really was to acknowledge

them and their work is one of
the individuals that has helped

to kind of like bring this
movement to bear, and so we

featured artists like Snowfro
and Larva Labs and Emily Shee

and Claire Silver and 113 and
Tyler Hobbs and Botto and Vera

Molnar and a number of others,
and acknowledged some previous

work that they had made and we
there wasn't anything we didn

didn't, we weren't selling any
of their new work.

We weren't trying to um, you
know, we commercialized some,

some feature event it, these
exhibitions, the series every

three days was really just to
sit and acknowledge some

previous work that we wanted to
draw scope and focus to and um,

that was really the of of that
first year of glitch and the

first kind of like series that
we brought to market, the.

After that first year ended, we
launched our second product, uh

, which is called 30 days in
Marfa, um, applying it to to new

work, to future work and uh,
giving artists the tools and the

resources to be able to sit in
space for the same period of

time 30 days and make some new,
new work.

So we launched the first one.

It's um, you know, you can kind
of think of it as like a kind

of crypto art residency, and we
paid for the artist, for our

first one, the artist, to kind
of live in Marfa for 30 days.

We gave them resources to the
pool and to the gym and to

materials and to food and to
kind of all the things that they

would need to be comfortable,
and we worked with them to kind

of um, make new work, and the
first artist, uh was this

amazing, amazing, um crypto
artist named die, with the most

likes.

I am a huge believer in their
work and and they are and and

the the way in which they
operate, and they created their

first ever long form generative
art piece using kind of the art

blocks, contracts, and that
collection was called Nameless

Dread and very much like
spiritually embodied, the way

they view the world, their you
know reaction and promotion of

the way technology has just
seeped its way into kind of our

everyday experience.

And I feel really proud about
about that collection.

I think it's to me it
represents one of the most

important collections of the
last few years for a variety of

reasons, and I do think that as
more folks kind of come to

appreciate crypto art and kind
of the movement that's happening

here, they'll fall back on that
collection as a kind of an

important one that marks a very
important moment in time.

The second artist that we're
working with, the next residency

is actually launching very
shortly, here in October, and I

don't want to say too much about
that?

Sure, but it will be the next
30 days in Marfa and there will

be a few slight twists this time
around.

But we're really excited to
kind of work with our second

artist on this product and let
everyone kind of see what

they're going to bring into the
world here.

Speaker 2: I really yeah, dude,
thank you for breaking that down

on both fronts.

I'm really, you know, I'm
really kind of curious, like,

why 30 days?

Thank you for breaking that
down on both fronts.

I'm really kind of curious.

Why 30 days?

I know that that was a theme
for the first one, but when you

guys were thinking about
packaging up the second product

and testing this out, what made
you land on 30 days?

Was it just simply because of a
continuation of that?

But I'm curious what y'all's
thought process was behind that

constraint.

Speaker 1: That's a really good
question.

I don't know if anyone's ever
asked us that before.

I think there's a few things
that come up for me.

I think the first is on the
internet things, and I've

written about this a bit.

Attention is just very, very
quick, moving.

We're constantly searching for
new ideas, for new concepts, for

new things that we can accrete
value to just through our

eyeballs.

Like paying attention to this
and 30 Days was really a

response.

I have so much belief in this
movement and the internet and

digital and uh kind of the
permanency of blockchains and

all the things that like kind of
have drawn different builders

from different areas of life to
this tech stack.

But I also think that there is a
inclination to kind of just

like rapid fire through ideas
and things and concepts

constantly, and 30 days is
really a response to, uh, that

some of just like rapid fire
through ideas and things and

concepts constantly.

And 30 Days is really a response
to some of those behaviors and

it's really about drawing scope
and focus to one thing, one

object, for one period of time
30 days and really getting folks

to kind of just sit with that
artist and that object and that

exhibition for a prolonged
period of time that we felt was

required to kind of like at
least um, at least push back

against some of like the um,
kind of like the, the behavior

pattern that that kind of seems
to exist in our space around

attention, um and and.

In moving into our second
product, 30 days in Marfa, um

really give artists the
confidence that we would be

there with them for a prolonged
period of time, that this wasn't

something that you know they uh
could just fire off, that they

could sit with and take their
time with and let bake and uh

iterate ideas with us, on and so
on and so forth.

And so you know I think there
is a and there's, you know

there's a.

I'm a, you know, a sucker for,
for consistency and for concept,

and you know we've built our
whole lives around this.

You know 12 month calendar, and
I think there's something very

beautiful about that as well,
having some of that structure

baked into these products.

So, yeah, anyway, a couple of
reasons that we kind of talked

about internally that we hope
are meaningful for folks, as,

whether they understand or not,
as they kind of engage with the

stuff we do at Glitch.

Speaker 2: That's incredible,
man.

Yeah, no, really.

Yeah, I appreciate you diving
into that.

I thought it was.

I think it's just super
fascinating and I think I didn't

really start thinking in terms
of constraints and time, uh,

until I started, you know,
trying to understand, you know,

generative art and that's, like
you know, obviously a main, uh,

you know, um, I wouldn't say a
main feature of it, but it's a

main area of focus, uh, when it
comes to creating these bodies

of work and I think taking that,
uh, and I really liked the term

that you use like taking a
stance, uh, cause I just think

that, um, this, you know, the,
the surface area of this space

is like so far wide but it, you
know, oftentimes lacks.

It oftentimes lacks depth, you
know, and I think that, uh,

planning a flag and saying hey,
like pay attention to one thing

for this period of time, is
there's something really

comforting in that.

I think that something that
really confuses me or where I

see there's just a lot of
ambiguity when it comes to any

sort of artist in residency,
like adjacent initiative, and

almost it's something that I
really enjoy around the creative

process, around how people get
things done, because I think

there's this common delusion
that, uh, for I not just with in

in the creative world, but just
with all of us is that like we

need all this time to do
something like we.

We need to have all this
uninterrupted time, uh like

infinite, to let something forge
.

And oftentimes I've done some
of my best work and seen some

other creators do some of their
best work under a few sets of

constraints.

Speaker 1: Oh man, there's magic
in everything you're saying

right now.

I totally agree.

And there was this God, it was
in a magazine or is in an

article that I read like at the
end of high school or early

college and I can't remember the
exact line, but it was

something like tight constraints
yield creative results, and

that line has stuck with me, uh,
since it's.

It's so true, these, these, the
idea of self-imposed

constraints.

There is magic in in constraints
, constraints if you can really

kind of leverage them in the
right way.

And it's, you know, I think
there's healthy constraints and

there's unhealthy constraints
and it's trying to find the

balance between that.

But I couldn't agree with you
more in terms of just the human

brain and the human body kind of
like acknowledging in like kind

of the shadows of the mind,
like these constraints that

exist as they kind of work
through very difficult problems,

especially very difficult
creative problems, to come up

with solutions, and I think
different artists or different

creatives, different
technologists, different

founders will come up with like
different answers, as these

constraints kind of like work
their way through their process.

But they can be incredibly
powerful tools to kind of like

seeing the world in very unique
ways if you can get the

constraints right Totally do.

Speaker 2: I think that's still
that last point is probably the

most.

I think that's everyone's
number one challenge.

One of my favorite artists and
singer is Maynard from Tool, and

one thing he shared about his
creative process he's like, yeah

, sometimes when I'm in between
he owns two wineries and is in

three bands.

This is one of my biggest
inspirations.

You know, it's like how does
this guy do all of this and be

so good at it all?

And he's like, yeah, like
sometimes when I'm in my truck

for like 20 minutes waiting on
something like I'll write lyrics

, I was like that's just so
fucking cool.

Speaker 1: Totally, totally.

It's like inspiration will just
happen from anywhere.

I'll also say and I don't know
enough about that artist, I do

have friends that love Tool and
are diehard Tool fans, but I

don't know much about them.

You said his name was Maynard,
yeah, maynard, james, maynard

Maynard.

And I'll also say, without
speaking for Maynard, I'll speak

for myself.

I think the other trick is to
find really awesome people to

work with, right, and if you're
going to take on a lot, uh, so

much of it is just like is
finding great people to work

with and people who think uh
creatively, who can work well

and like very, um, work well
together in ways that are very

complimentary, uh, to be able to
kind of like achieve superhuman

outcomes.

Like there's no way that, uh,
that one dude can just like do

all of it right, like, just like
there's no way one dude can run

our country or run a
corporation, or, uh, it really

does take, uh, it's teamwork
makes the dream work is

something I like to say.

And uh, and so much of life is
just finding great people to

surround yourself with.

Speaker 2: Dude, yeah, I feel
like that's like the.

The ultimate goal man it's uh,
yeah, just doing things with

great, like doing great things
with fun people and really

creative people.

So yeah, dude, this was a fun
topic to riff on man and like

something.

That, something that you
mentioned a little earlier in

this was just this just innate
bullishness around this industry

and like the opportunity that
we have here.

So I'm just like kind of
curious like what was maybe the

first thing that that sparked
that for you and like how, like

basically, just like what keeps
you here, like what got you here

, and is that the same thing
that keeps you here, or has that

evolved?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I had a friend,
um, who had sold his previous

company, um, this was back in
2017.

Um, and we were catching up at
a, at a party, um, and he had

just had, and he had some extra
free time.

It was actually a couple of my
friends there.

I was reflecting on this story
recently with both of them, just

because I ended up just plowing
my entire life into this stuff,

and they were the ones that
kind of brushed the topic and

they thought it was just kind of
humorous.

They're actually both attorneys
now.

They're both very successful,
just like have nothing to do

with crypto and blockchain, but,
um, they, they both were

describing um, I think the I
can't even remember what it was.

I think it was like ripple.

I think they were talking about
ripple, um, and like how it

worked and, uh, and the tech
that it was built on.

And I had had when I was in
business school, I had a friend

who had organized these poker
nights.

This was like 2012, 2013.

And like it would be Bitcoin
and like that was your, you know

you'd buy in with Bitcoin and
like so I had some like previous

exposure, but like this idea of
other products and services

leveraging blockchains in this
way was foreign to me, and so I

remember being at this party and
just like talking with them

about it and as they were
describing how these other

products and services work, I
had passed the bar.

I was, I wasn't practicing, but
I was technically an attorney

at that point and the lens I
viewed things was just like you

know, I had a number of ways
like tools to use to kind of

like evaluate things.

I was at, you know, I built
startups at that point.

I was, I had you know, it was
an attorney.

I was teaching at the University
of Oregon at that point and

they were telling me about I
think it was ripple and I was

like this screams like a
unregulated security.

Uh, I was just like I'm going to
explain why I think that and

I'm like fairly certain that it
is.

Uh, and so like we got into
kind of this argument and so I

remember, um, just like going
home in the next couple of

months, just like just trying to
understand what the hell was

going on with this technology
stack, and I, I just I very

quickly realized like this type
of database structure was going

to eat everything.

Like I got it and I started
publishing work around or or

essays around kind of this idea
of putting regulated assets so

this was like public securities,
private security, startup

equity, you know whatever
anything like kind of on the

regulated side of the asset
market on these blockchains.

And this was like very early
ideas around kind of security

tokens.

Me and my business partner now
we like to joke that we kind of

were the security token industry
for the first few years because

we both did so much work and
ran conferences and I ran a

think tank for a bit in this
area.

So the way I got into this space
was through the lens of just

trying to put like trying to
think about the hard problems to

solve around putting regulated
assets on top of blockchains and

through that also really came
to enjoy this concept of trust

minimization, because there was
a number of problems that

existed when you and a lot of
them came down to trust problems

when you detached a physical
asset or physical rights that

existed in the legal air with a
digital ledger that was like,

interoperable, ran 24, 7, cross,
you know, 180 jurisdictions,

and there was an elegance to
things like bitcoin, which, like

, didn't have to serve those
same like desires of like trying

to match the world in two ways
one through this legal layer

that was very fragmented across
the world, and one that was very

permissionless and open and
digital.

And by understanding inherently
bitcoin.

I like reworked my brain to
understand how things of value

could live on top of this tech
stack that were that really

availed themselves to the
benefit of the technology.

It was like this huge aha
moment for me and once I

understood that, it was very
clear like this was going to eat

it all, like this was going to
totally we were going to rework

how value exchange kind of was
created in the future to fit

this form factor because it was
so brilliant and so elegant.

Years down the road, the thing
that keeps me here is, I believe

all product, all GDP, all store
of value assets, all products

and services are going to tough
in some way touch this

technology stack in the future
and for me as an investor.

So what I do with you know,
most of my time is thinking

about the sequencing of that
reality, like what happens first

, what happens second, what
happens third, and as these

things, you know, get created,
what are the second order

effects of that thing or the
third order effects of that

thing?

And so much of early stage
investing is just trying to see

around corners and see the world
unfold before it happens.

And that's what I've kind of
like.

Built, you know, collab
currency.

My business partner built
collab currency to kind of try

and do so.

That's, I don't know, a short
end to a longer story there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's
incredible man.

I didn't know you could be
considered a practicing attorney

.

I remember reading I can't
remember which article it was

but we were talking about
bundling IP rights.

I was like, okay, this guy
clearly knows, he's clearly had

at least some training or hung
around lawyers a little bit.

I was like, okay, this guy
clearly knows, um, you know,

he's clearly been, uh, had had
at least some training or hung

around lawyers a little bit.

I was in legal technology
before I, before I came here.

Speaker 1: Um so I it, it will.

Speaker 2: You know it's.

It was quite boring, but it was
really fascinating.

You know, um it totally is.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the the the
academic and research side of

law is.

So I I not only did I go to law
school and pass the bar and

technically still qualified, I'm
still doing my CLEs but I come

from a family of attorneys a
working attorney.

So my brother is an attorney
and my dad ran his own law firm

for 40 years.

So I've grown up around the
practice of law and I can tell

you your gut is correct.

Grown up around the practice of
law and I can tell you your gut

is correct the academic and
research side of law is just way

, infinitely more interesting
than the actual day-to-day

practice of law.

Speaker 2: Totally, totally, and
I think like, since we're on

this thread, like one thing I
one question I've had, or one I

guess.

I guess curiosity I've had over
the past couple years is like

what does it mean to put rights
on chain?

You know, like, what does it
mean to put rights on chain?

You know, like, what does it
mean to put like what is like

how does this impact?

You know, like, how does
copyright law change when the

entire world is is touching
these rails?

Um, we've seen, you know, a few
things with cc0, like we've

seen some of the transient lab
story inscriptions.

I think tjo was one of the
first to put like an actual

contract, uh, or put rights into
the token.

Um, so, like, I'm really like
this is one of the things that

one of those like probably
boring topics I'm just really

really curious about, cause I
think it has an outsized impact.

Speaker 1: Um, yeah, I mean, uh,
so this is uh, this is a.

So I did this podcast.

Um, I did this podcast with
Carly Riley this was a few years

back after Moonbirds had gone
CCO and I think I was like the

lone proponent on the panel.

There was like a Disney IP
attorney on the panel.

There was a couple others.

I can't remember exactly what
the makeup of the it was, a

saying like hey, this is
actually a.

There's merit to the, this
approach where value can accrue

to this network of objects
without there actually being

commercial legal rights you can
defend in legal space.

Uh, which I think I think it's
becoming slowly more obvious to

people.

I mean, x copy is an amazing
example of this.

The most networked artist in
crypto on planet Earth generates

millions of dollars in both
primary and secondary sales.

All of his objects are CCO and
I think people are starting to

realize that there's.

I'll take a step back and just
talk a little bit about how I

think about property rights in
general and then how that may be

help those.

That way of framing may be
helpful or not helpful in crypto

, but if you take a look at X
copy as an example, he made it

all of his work, cco.

You can remix and commercialize
any of his works in any fashion

that you see fit.

There are no jurisdictional
binds or any sort of clamps that

exist towards remixing or using
his work in any meaningful way.

And yet the prices of his
objects are just going

exponential.

And you know so.

I wrote this piece Storing Value
in Digital Objects a few years

ago, where I made the argument
that, inherently, value starts

with attention.

And if you believe that in an
internet age where we're

spending 10 hours a day in front
of these screens, you know

there is immense power to
compounding attention, that

happens like through things like
remixing and through things

like alleviating some of the
constraints around how work is

shown in this like very natively
digital environment, and if you

believe that's true, then the
benefits that you can accrue

that can translate to an object
may far outweigh and far outpace

those that may accrue to
traditional legacy models of

protecting IP, of like defending
it, of preventing people from

sharing it and preventing
attention unwanted attention

coming to that object.

Now, of course, there's
trade-offs.

Right Like this isn't perfect
for everyone.

There's going to be different
business models that people want

to employ or enjoy.

But on the face, there are real
reasons why stimulating

attention around an object and
removing some of kind of the

legal layer implications of an
object can be so instrumental to

value accrual at the
intersection of internet,

digital objects and a kind of
attention being in like this

natively digital environment for
more and more people every day.

And so I would just say CCO is
like a first manifestation of

that idea that's starting to
kind of like pick up, and for

the audience that's unfamiliar,
cco is just another way of

saying just kind of like you're
removing kind of the commercial

restrictions around the
intellectual property that may

exist and people are free to
kind of commercialize or remix

or do whatever they want without
limitations or scope to kind of

a previously defendable IP.

Now I think, just as another
mental model that I have is the

way the world works today I've
mentioned this before but just

for just hand-wavy
back-of-the-napkin stuff there's

like 180 countries on planet
Earth and each of these

countries has their own rule of
law.

They have their own
governmental structures, law,

they have the you know their own
governmental structures.

They have their own politics.

They have their own legal
layers that has been developed

through case law or through
statute for hundreds of years

and you know those things aren't
actually interoperable with one

another.

The laws of other countries
don't apply to the laws of of

how we rule and make law here in
the United States.

These things are very
jurisdiction specific.

So that's part one.

Part two is humans have created
a technology that leverages a

24-7 global permissionless
database where value can be

exchanged across the world
through, like these digital

networks that aren't even
visible to the eye in

nanoseconds, and we now have
like square peg round hole where

we've got this fucking
brilliant technology stack that

allows value to be created and
written and and and traverse, uh

, multiictions in the blink of
an eye and this very legacy, old

, you know, like fragmented way
of making laws.

That is very jurisdiction
specific.

So that's part two.

Part three is you know property
rights are, you know, are, a

subset of like the legal air,
like how we view who owns what,

who can defend what.

And as we move into things that
are more digital, it's easy to

say like who you know truly owns
a house on a plot of land that

you know, I think in there's a
number of you know third world

countries where, like, defending
land use is actually a huge

problem, but for many countries,
you know, it's very easy to say

, like that plot of land exists
there that's owned by this

person, you know that parcel
that exists here can be defended

by that person.

We've got this, you know
registry that in the county

recorder's office or that the
jurisdiction maintains that says

who owns that physical property
.

As we move into kind of digital
property, especially digital

property that could be largely
reproduced for the last 20 years

, that can like move quickly and
move across jurisdictions very

quickly, it starts being very,
even more difficult to kind of

like establish legal layer
jurisdiction over certain

objects or certain things.

And so, knowing that these two
things are just constantly

coming out ahead to one another,
I think the brilliance of just

having all value accrue to the
invisible network around an

object to me is an elegant way
to bypass all of this tech debt,

all of this legal layer debt,
and to really just stimulate the

networks that are now existing
in this purely digital

environment, this internet
environment.

And this is why I always kind
of like try and reestablish this

point over and over and over
again.

I know I sound like a broken
record, but I think it's so

important.

It's network digital objects or
network digital objects few

external dependencies, and
external dependencies can mean

legal layer.

It can mean things that you know
allow blockchains to speak to,

you know, storage networks like
IPF, ipfs.

I think there's merit to these
things, just like there's merit

to the legal layer, but I think
the thing that I always try to

impress upon people is that
there's a new type of way that

value can accrue to these things
that has nothing to do with

these external dependencies that
have existed for thousands of

years while humans have been
trying to figure this shit out

around property rights.

And leaning into this new tech
stack and totally availing

yourself to it uh, can produce
very interesting outcomes if

done correctly to it, can
produce very interesting

outcomes if done correctly, and
so I know I'm rambling in like

all sorts of crazy directions.

It's probably not where you
wanted to go with this podcast,

but this concept is something
that I think is very important

and I think will manifest itself
especially in a world where

we're now starting to kind of
like bring synthetic

intelligence into the mix and
things can be reproduced so

quickly and humans are not even
having a hand in the styles and

the types of value that can be
created on top of these ledgers

or elsewhere across the world,
dude.

Speaker 2: No, I mean, I teed
you right up for that.

If I was mad at that, that's my
own damn fault, but I really.

No, I thoroughly enjoyed that,
because it's something that you

know with my background.

I was like, wow, like this
feels like there's an

opportunity here.

But hearing things parsed out
like that into three and four

parts of what this is how it
works, currently works and what

it could be, yeah, like I
couldn't think of anyone better

to riff on that with, because I
look at it as this big, you know

, like this big kind of gray
area that you know, like we all

know, that memes are a product
of remixing culture.

You know, and it may not make
sense for everyone, but we start

to get a little hairy when it
comes to how we navigate, define

, are okay with, etc.

Or how we feel about things.

And, yeah, I think you honestly
just gave me a lot to think

about, to be honest.

Speaker 1: I'm still also
thinking about all these things.

I don't know if I have any of
the right answers, but I do have

a lot of ideas and I think some
of them are directionally like

on target.

I think something you said I
really want to make sure I

double click on establish some
sort of like very narrowly

tailored outcome, and I think
that's amazing.

I invest in those companies,
like I think there is really

there is merit to doing that and
defending property and IP, and

in that way, there's other
creators or creatives or game

developers or developers or
protocol engineers that don't

want to do that and they think
there's a different type of

compounding value that they can
create.

And I want to invest in that,
as long as there's like a scope

and these things are narrowly
positioned correctly to the

right audiences.

And so I think the last thing I
want to say on all of these

ideas is like there is no one
size fits all, and that's the

thing I will always believe.

There will always be different
types of outcomes to be

optimized for, and it's really
important you have the right

toolbox to approach those
problems.

Speaker 2: Totally dude.

Yeah, I think that's really
well put and I think that

probably segues into, like
another topic.

I'm just fascinated by watching
you know you on the timeline,

whether it's marketing yourself
or like you know whether it's

you, yeah, just talking about
just ideas in general is just

how you build attention.

You know, it's really
interesting to watch and see and

you've invested I mean, your
fund is invested in some of the

you know just some companies
that are like just incredibly

useful and still here today and
it's really wild to look at your

portfolio.

So I'm really curious, like
when it comes to Glitch and when

it comes to people that you in
teams, that you guys invest in,

like how do you build attention
for new companies and accounts?

Speaker 1: Wow, great question,
man.

I wish I had like a playbook to
find to say, like this is how

you do it.

There's a you probably saw this
but, like Mr Beast put out like

this 30 or 40 page PDF I shared
it with a bunch of our

portfolio company founders which
was quantifying, like how to do

it, like how to build a
successful production company

and, um, monetize and quantify
that build in, uh, in a way that

, like somebody could learn
about it.

So, um, there's, there's
definitely playbooks.

I think those playbooks change
as, like the landscape changes,

right, like the landscape for
creating attention today is very

different than even it was five
years ago or 10 years ago or

even pre-internet.

Understanding the, the arena
that you're playing in, is just

as critical, and how it's
evolving and how it's changing

in real time is just as critical
as understanding yourself and

your value, prop and um.

And you know I'll take a step
back and I'll I'll talk about it

from the lens of startup
investing and then I'll apply it

to this attention thing.

So, uh, when you know I'm
training my investors to, as

they're kind of like engaging
with founders and looking at

product space and trying to
figure out, you know how to see

around corners and how to and
how to see things at the early

stages.

I think the very simplified
mental model that I've said

before in the past, and I'll
I'll say it again here, is um

right team, right product, right
time and products you can

interchange for problem Right
Like, so like the, the problem

that's being solved, and so
there's all different kind of

like branches that stem out from
each of those three things.

So, like you know the right
team, maybe this founder has

experience building in this
category before, or maybe

they've been doing research in
it, or maybe they're an academic

, or maybe they've built a
previous venture and so they

have a track record of success.

Or maybe they, you know, were a
bus boy at a restaurant but

continued to kind of like, see
this thing over and over and

over again and understand it
inside and out.

They have some relevant domain
experience that makes them the

right founder for this job.

The second is like the right
product or the right problem.

You know there are an infinite.

It gets back to the kind of the
thing we were talking about a

glitch.

It's like there's so much stuff
to do, like work on the things

that are fun for you.

I also think about that in
terms of venture and venture

capital.

Right, there are so many
problems to fund.

Like I mean there are.

I tripped over you know
something on the floor earlier

today as I was kind of like
walking out of my house and like

that's a problem, like I could
figure out how to build some

contraption that made it so I
could walk around this thing, or

like that picked up all my
clothes at night or that made me

never trip again.

But like, is that a venture
scale problem?

Is that a problem that needs to
get solved at scale?

Is that something that I want
to invest or have others invest

millions of dollars into solving
?

And so not every problem is
equal.

Right, and especially as you
think about venture, which is

like a very specific type of
company, building Like Glitch is

not a venture backed business.

It's not something that I think
warrants venture investment

into.

It's something that I think can
grow sustainably and have

massive impact.

Just, you know, methodically,
like being thoughtful about how

it grows and how it generates
revenue and how we keep expenses

lean and how we grow this thing
time as time goes on.

It is not something that I
think deserves or should be on a

venture track.

I also think it would lose some
of its ability to mobilize in

interesting directions if it did
that, if it had to appeal to a

board or you know, deliver some
sort of like bottom line outcome

that they could then that we
could then fundraise against.

It puts you on a track, a very
specific track, that I don't

think it should be on, and I
think it may end up causing an

adverse reaction to and so
stepping back to the three

pillars, like this right problem
thing is so important you want

to make sure that you're
investing in like the right type

of problem for the tools that
you have.

And then the last thing is
timing, and I promise I'm going

to get back to kind of our Mr
Beast attention thing after I go

through this Understanding kind
of the environment and the

landscape that you're investing
in is so critical.

It's just because you you know
you've got this amazing founder

that's working on this venture
style problem doesn't mean that

they're building three years too
early or five years too late.

Right Like this could be a very
saturated market at that point

or the market might not be ripe
enough to support an outcome

that's interesting economically
for them or for a venture

investor.

And so timing is another way of
just like looking at the

environment and making sure that
it's all in alignment and

integrity with the founder and
the problem and all of these

things.

And so, as a heuristic, that's
something that I really try and

drive home with our investors.

It's really just like.

Obviously there's millions of
things that subtree out of that,

but as a general heuristic, I
think it's been very helpful for

them to kind of come back to
that.

I think it's been very helpful
for them to kind of come back to

that.

Now, sorry, my computer keeps
going on.

It keeps shutting off the
screen, so I'm just trying to

make sure we don't get cut off
here.

Oh, you're good, dude.

Drawing it back to your
question, which was like the one

about attention, like
quantifying attention.

How do you build attention?

I think those three pillars can
really be applied to the same

concept, right?

So let's see, like, right team,
like, who are you as a founder,

who are you as an individual,
who are you who, like, if you

really do some soul searching,
like, what are you qualified or

interested in or gives you juice
or gets you excited, to like

talk about or bring attention to
your spotlight, right?

So much of uh, of like building
attention is just like making

sure you're in authenticity with
the types of things you're

trying to draw attention to, uh,
and so it gets back to like

there being philosophical
alignment, narrative alignment

between you and you know the,
the attention that you're trying

to generate for yourself.

I think the second is second is
the right problem, or the right

product, packaging the thing
that you're trying to do in the

right format, in the right way.

I happen to think that there's
immense leverage on Twitter and

a single tweet I've had single
tweets, you know, get viewed

half a million times or a
million times or whatever Like

there's an immense network that
can get built out of a very few

amount of characters, like think
about the power, the leverage

in that I can send a couple of
sentence out into the internet

and it can be read a million
times or more.

That that type of leverage is
insane to me.

That, to me, is like the right
product for trying to build

attention.

For Mr Beast it's YouTube, for
others it's you know's ad space

on television during the Super
Bowl.

The form factor can change.

You want all of the three
things to be in alignment.

I think the last thing is about
timing and this is more of again

like an environment thing.

Sorry, it's about timing.

It's more of like looking
around and seeing.

Is the things that you're
interested in?

Is the way the product, the
vehicle that you're bringing the

things you're interested in to
market in alignment with what

the market wants to hear, what
the market wants to see?

Are they interested in other
things?

Are they focused squarely on
some of the thing that isn't an

integrity and with, like your
interests or kind of like the

form factor?

And so I think my rough
heuristic for anyone like

looking to kind of generate
attention is to kind of be in

integrity with those three
things.

And I think if you can nail that
and it's obviously trial and

error and I don't even think
I've got this right you know a

lot of this is fumbling in the
dark and I think so much of Mr

Beast's PDF was showing like,
hey, it's about measuring all of

these things so that you can
manage them effectively.

It's measuring click-through
rates, it's measuring

conversions, it's measuring, you
know, the thumbnail.

It's measuring all of this
stuff and then calibrating and

recalibrating up or down
depending on the outcome you're

trying to achieve to get it
right.

You know I don't put as much of
a process or an emphasis on

this.

But I do know that if I really
wanted to be successful, that's

probably what I'd do.

I would make sure those three
things are in integrity as one

another, and then I would
quantify it, and then I would

calibrate up or down depending
on the outcome I was trying to

achieve.

So anyway, so anyway, that's my
I, I, I'm, I'm shoehorning in

kind of my own ideologies here
into the to answering your

question, but I think there's
probably something in there

that's valuable.

Speaker 2: Well, I think the
framing is like the one thing

that I that that's just stuck
out to me in in literally

everything you say, whether it's
on a podcast or in writing, or

you know a tweet or whatever the
case may be is that is the

framing.

So like I think the framing is
probably like the one of the

most helpful things because it
allows people to see clearly.

I think mental models are
something that you know, a lot

of my favorite thinkers here
like it's, like it's.

It's not the idea, it's the.

It's not like the actual thing,
it's not all the technicalities

, it's like if, cause, if
there's no mental model ahead of

that, it doesn't make sense.

Um, or like the, the, the, the
details aren't going to, aren't

going to matter as much unless
the context has been, has been

laid.

Uh, so I, I know, I, I really,
yeah, I appreciate the like,

just like the in-depth uh parts,
and that's literally my

favorite parts of these
interviews, man.

Speaker 1: Uh, so I appreciate
the question.

I appreciate the questions as
well.

Like I, it's fun to tread back
and try and uh kind of, like you

know, operationalize a process
here in a way that I don't think

I've ever really thought about.

So thank you, for I actually am
really grateful for the

questions.

They're getting me to think
about things in a way that I

don't think I have Incredible
man Dude, thank you.

Speaker 2: No, this is, yeah,
this is a blast and, like, I

think the one thing that, like
in that context that you just

laid out around, yeah, building
intention and what you think

about and the questions that you
have to answer, again, the one

thing that came back to me
through that entire speech there

was constraint.

It's like reducing the world
down to a few questions and once

you get down to the essence of
what it is you're trying to do,

it becomes a lot more authentic
and natural and it doesn't have

to be so hard is the main thing
that I drew from that.

Um, I appreciate that.

So I, yeah, yeah, dude, for
sure, uh, so I, I know, you know

, I'm not sure what if you do
have a hard stop, but I want to.

There's a there's one or two
more topics, uh, or questions

that maybe we can uh go on.

Here is, you know, the I can't
remember which article it was,

but I'm pretty sure it was the
the punks, squiggles and

autoglyphs article Um, you had
mentioned the future of

generative media.

Uh, there were, there were
three components of it, uh, that

we're going to propel it
forward, which was the joint

creation, um, joint creation
aspect, having the assets be on

chain, uh, and the playground,
um, and those three things were

going to be the propeller or the
fuel to really skyrocket this

to just the next 10, 20, 30, 40
years.

I'm curious when you hear those
read back to you and where

we're at today.

Is there anything you'd add to
it?

And yeah, is there anything you
add to that list?

Or is there anything you'd add
to it?

Um, and yeah, is there anything
you add to that to that list,

or is there anything that's
changed?

Speaker 1: Gosh.

Um, so I wrote that article and
I think really early 2021.

Um, and I think this was back
when, uh, I mean, this was like

before board apes and before
Fidenza and before, you know, I

think, like Incredible, the kind
of like the inflection point

this was.

I think Squiggles were like at
maybe I don't know-.

Speaker 2: They were half an ETH
or something like that.

Speaker 1: Half an ETH.

Okay, so they were cheap they
were, I don't know very, very

interesting to kind of like
start playing around with this

tech.

So it's pretty cool to kind of
honestly just like think back to

that time and where my kind of
mental state was.

I think the you know, I think
to answer that question, it's

just it's.

It's tricky because I do think
that the world has changed and

evolved a little bit.

I will say, like my confidence
in things being community owned

and networks being community
created and more and more

dependencies that existed off
chain being on chain and more

and more of like existed
off-chain being on-chain, and

more and more of community
formation through this

playground happening organically
in real time at speeds that we

can't quite imagine.

I think all of those are just
up and to the right.

I don't even think we've really
those ideas have really

penetrated mainstream in any
meaningful way.

I mean we have meme tokens.

I think we've really like those
ideas have really penetrated

mainstream in any meaningful way
.

I mean we we have meme tokens.

I think we have, you know,
commodity money, we have bitcoin

, we have nfts, uh, but, but the
but, those principles like

those, these are still not like
evenly distributed across the

world like we're.

We're still very much like you
in our corner of the internet,

like trying to explain these
value props, and so I think the,

if you know, I think talking
about the lens of, you know,

synthetic intelligence and you
know, procedural generation of

all types of outputs that humans
can enjoy, that humans can

interact with, uh, I mean, we're
god, it's.

Somebody wrote this on twitter
yesterday and, um, and I can't

remember exactly, I'm gonna blow
the citation, I don't remember

exactly what it was, but
somebody wrote that, like there

was, um, that there was a
prediction that by the end of

next year so the end of 2025,
that 99% of the content, the

media that people viewed on the
internet would have been, in

part or in whole, generated by
AI.

And I think there's probably,
you know, obviously we're not

there yet, but like, are we
trending to a direction where

that's true?

Like you kind of have to
believe we are, and so, if you

believe that to be true, then
there is something that's going

to merge into this grand trend
line that I'm describing of

joint creation and on chain and,
like this, you know, community

formation that's happening,
that's going to be in part or in

whole, assisted by synthetic
intelligence and AI.

And, um, you know, I I think if
, uh, to answer your question

directly.

If there's one thing to append
to kind of some of these early

ideas I had in in early 2021, it
would probably be the merging

of um of kind of machine
intelligence, synthetic

intelligence, into kind of the
mix here I think that's no and

that segues like into an just,
yeah, another area I wanted to

talk about which was, uh, yeah,
which is, yeah, the convergence

of AI and crypto.

Speaker 2: And I think, as time
goes on, like it just feels,

like, you know, because there's
moments like I came in here with

a really strong belief in this
tech, mainly from like a

creative lens of like wow, like,
oh, I can like tokenize the

weapon skins I pay so much money
for on Valorant, you know like

that was like my ticket into
this space, but being here full

time, there's moments where it's
like, you know, definitely

during your first cycle of like
a bear market, it's like

definitely question, like okay,
like what are we doing here?

You know, is this still?

Is the dream still alive?

Is this still valuable?

Is this, you know, is it the
price that's affecting my mood?

Or, you know, like all the
things, all the thoughts, all

the emotions, but like I think
one thing that was super

interesting, maybe in 2023, that
I, yeah, just like kind of had

a spark of like, oh, wow, like
here's yet another use case.

Not that the other ones weren't
valid.

They're still very strong and
have just only crystallized the

more as time goes on, but I feel
like we always just need new

narratives to feed on and need
new things or new use cases to

research or sink our teeth into.

And that was like the rise of AI
and it's like when ChatGPT came

out with like GPT-3, it was
like holy shit, there is just so

many doors just completely
unlock and so many questions

began to emerge and it started
to get me wondering like, wow,

imagine with the amount of deep
fakes and fake content and

synthetic content like you were
mentioning.

I wonder if there's a way to
verify that.

And I was like oh wow, maybe
there's something.

Maybe there's yet another use
case for a trust-minimized

ledger that could be applied to
a new technology.

Um, so I'm like really curious.

Like I bent bit tensor is like
yeah, that's one of the articles

I read and I was like that is a
.

That is a very dense article.

So just want to say off the top
of my head, like or before we

get into this, like holy shit,
that probably took a long time

to write and co-author.

So, uh, it's just very, very
dense and rich with information.

Um, so I guess like yeah, maybe
we can segue into that for how

much you can talk about it?

Um, but I'm just curious like
what excites you about that?

Like you know, maybe super high
level.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, um,
gosh, I wish we had more more

time to unpack this, but I'll
I'm going to stay high level and

hopefully, uh, uh, hopefully at
least provide some insight as

to kind of the thinking area.

The first thing I'll say is, uh
, that that piece did take, uh

for sure, some time, um, but I
had an amazing, amazing

collaborator and contributor uh
on that piece, which is one of

my investors, ronan.

He's the youngest investor on
our team and he's quite sharp

and it was great to kind of like
work with him on that over many

, many months.

To answer your question
directly, I think the elegance

of blockchains as a
counterweight to the rapid

generation of new types of
information through AI is just

like one of the.

It's like a layup right, like
we have an environment that's

secured by nodes all over the
world that's permissionless.

That is an amazing timestamp
for all types of information,

both financial and otherwise.

It's a recording format for
data and we have the ability now

to kind of like create
processes as a natural

counterweight to the generation
of media, both by human or by

computer, and it's to me the
role of blockchains as a use

case for that is just.

It's like a match made in
heaven, peanut butter and jelly

it makes total sense.

I think the thing about
BitTensor and I'll say, or just

the thing about AI generally, is
that let's take ChatGPT and

I've given this call before in
the past but, like I, I don't

just think blockchains are a
great terminal form factor for

where information that's AI
generated lives.

I think that's 100% an amazing
use case.

But I'll also say I think the
really interesting stuff, the

stuff that BitTensor is touching
on, the stuff, that other

really interesting stuff, the
stuff that BitTensor is touching

on, the stuff that other
decentralized intelligence

networks are touching on, is
that the actual creation, the

actual, you know, the melding of
information that goes into the

inputs that make up synthetic
intelligence, those may actually

be best coordinated and best
run through crypto economic

incentives that live on top of
blockchains.

And I'll give you an example I
think it's it's easier to work

through this from something
that's easier to get, which is

something like a clod or a chat
gpt or perplexity, uh.

So let's just take chat gpt,
which is like a hundred million

people use it far more have
tried it, I think, like I can't

remember a single digit.

Millions pay monthly to
subscribe to it.

It's a product that's, I think,
the fastest product to a

hundred million users ever.

There's obviously, like it's, a
successful consumer application

right, I think we would all
agree.

And if you actually look at that
product, it's actually a series

of a bunch of different
products that make up that

product.

It's things like data scraping,
so the ability to kind of uh

reach out and grab and scrape as
much information, helpful

information, uh to train a model
on uh as possible.

So data collection, data
scraping, it's data storage,

it's the actual pre-training
process, it's the training

process, it's the fine-tuning
process, it's the inference,

it's the actual embedded
application that is in integrity

, with all of these things as a
final landing place.

And you know all the other jobs
to be done that make up that.

You know that end state product
of chat GPT and 100 million

people using this thing To
achieve that outcome.

You know the modern AI movement
.

It requires massive amounts of
data.

That data requires massive
amounts of computation and that

computation requires massive
amounts of capital.

And to date, the easiest way to
work backwards from there,

which is getting capital to pay
for computation and to pay for

data and to run all of these
processes to create a chat GPT,

those have been done through
centralized institutions.

They're raising a shitload of
money.

I think it's something like
$120 billion, probably more.

At this point these quotes are
so dated.

Yeah, going just for the
purpose of building these

foundational models, these arts
language models and these

training runs are costing tens
of millions of dollars just to

kind of get these versions out
the door.

I would say the thing that gets
me really excited about this

intersection of crypto and AI is
that all of that stuff the

capital, the computation, the
data can actually be better

served and create more
interesting outputs, more rich

outputs, better process, if we
just take the two core

ingredients of what we're
building here in Web3, and

that's blockchains as a
trust-minimized database and

it's crypto-economic incentives
to incentivize jobs to be done.

And so if we go through that
stack, that list of things that

I just described the data
collection, data scraping,

pre-training, training,
fine-tuning, inference, data

storage, data labeling, all of
these things my argument, and I

think the argument of a lot of
the people that are building at

this intersection, is that each
one of those jobs could be

better served with a protocol
that's emitting incentives to

get people to use latent compute
or to use latent storage or to

use latent labor to do, jobs to
be done that get checkpointed

and written, in some part or
whole, to blockchain-based

databases.

And I would argue that when you
do that, when you socialize

these processes out to the edges
, to the crowd, instead of

keeping them siloed, you're
going to reach more interesting

outcomes.

And I think the best evidence
of that is the largest

supercomputer on earth is
bitcoin.

It's far out paces the
computational uh heaviness of

something like a centralized
data center that, like elon musk

, is building in texas and um I.

My view is that the biggest
outcomes in the world as it

relates to synthetic
intelligence will not get

created until they are
supercharged by the two

ingredients that I just
described crypto, economic

incentives and blockchain based
databases.

And the rest is just
formulating those ingredients

for each job to be done in a way
that makes sense and that the

market is willing to believe in.

So that's the thing that really
gets me excited about all sorts

of projects, not just Bintenser
, but all sorts of projects that

have a very similar worldview
to how this technology stack is

going to shake out.

Speaker 2: That's incredible,
dude, I think, with how many

different things you just listed
there, I feel like we could

have an entire podcast on just
that topic.

So, in the interest of time and
constraint, just want to thank

you for that, like that's.

Yeah, it was.

It definitely melted my brain a
little bit, I had to say.

Out of everything I read, it
was probably, you know, the one

I understood the least, but
there were moments of it that

stuck out and there were little
threads to like think about.

So, yeah, thank you for.

Yeah, thank you for going there
, because it's-.

Speaker 1: I really do
appreciate you saying that.

I will say like it's.

We're just like we were in, you
know, in the early days of NFTs

.

Just like we were in the early
days of, you know, running a

smart contracting environment on
top of blockchains, or even the

birth of digital commodity
money on top of a blockchain.

Like, all of this stuff is
still very uncertain and unclear

and opaque.

Like I spend a lot of my time
thinking about how this stuff is

going to happen and how it's
going to come together.

Uh, so by no means like is what
I'm describing just like a

gospel or like how it's going to
shake out.

But I will say, like you know,
directionally, this feels to be,

uh to to me, one of the most
exciting categories of value on

planet earth that anybody could
be paying attention to, and so

it's where I have been spending
a lot of my focus over the last

it's called a year and a half,
two years incredible man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I, yeah,
definitely it, it.

I think it didn't click to me.

So you literally just said that
it kind of that category kind

of felt like nfts did to me.

When you literally just said
that it kind of that category

kind of felt like NFTs did to me
when I first started learning

about this in like March, april
21,.

You know where I was, like oh,
my God.

Just like you know that I don't
know why I didn't click to just

now.

So thank you, of course, but
also I think you're bringing up.

Speaker 1: I'll say one thing on
that which is, to me, things

like NFTs verifiably scarce
digital crypto, art, verifiably

scarce.

Digital gaming objects
verifiably scarce identity

markers, avatars, all of these
things so well in a world where

you know synthetic intelligence
and ai continues to kind of like

you know, get created in tandem
with blockchains, with crypto,

economic incentives and you know
, outputs living on like these,

these, uh, these distributed
budgets, and so I know this

sounds like such a weird barbell
to most folks, but like this

barbell of synthetic
intelligence and things like

nfts, to me is is, maybe, is so
interesting.

It's like these things actually
complement one another in such

a fascinating way and, um, yeah,
anyway, I just uh, I just

wanted to make that one note,
which is just like.

These two categories to me, are
just um, they're very

complimentary and will grow
together as time goes on.

Speaker 2: Hell, yeah, yeah,
dude, thank you.

Yeah, thank you for kind of
putting a pin in that or putting

a bow on that topic, man.

Last question before we wrap
man, it's a question that I've

taken from, you know, one of my
favorite podcasts, which is

Invest Like the Best, but I like
to repackage it.

So, in the essence of stealing
while giving credit, what is the

kindest thing someone has ever
done to you in Web3?

Or done for you?

Speaker 1: Gosh.

Oh man, you know that's such a
good question.

There are I mean, there are so
many people who have done

amazing things for me, with me
in this space that I'm like,

eternally grateful for, um, the
fact that you know, uh, my

business partner, steve, and I
are, um, we've been friends for

a long time, we've worked
together for such a long time.

Uh, he pops into my head as
someone just like uh, so

reliable, and someone that I'm
grateful to to spend my

professional career building
with.

Uh, there isn't like one thing
I can point to, but like he, you

know, is at the very top of
that list for me Malta and

Madison for being collaborators
and contributors with Beyond

Glitch.

It really is like that product
really is a labor of love for us

and they could be both doing
anything that they want right

now and the fact that we're the
three of us are contributing on

that is very meaningful to me.

Uh, knowing that like there's
opportunity costs, of course, to

to putting attention and scope
to to that product, um, there's

a bunch of people that I'm just
like I count my lucky star as a

you know, um, a bunch of our
collectors at the for the every

30 days product that we built.

There's like 150 of them that
have collected these full sets

and that are contributors every
step of the way.

You know, wayne and a bunch of
other folks really stick out to

me there as people who are just
like good, just great people

that I'm just lucky to like kind
of be in orbit with, that I'm

just lucky to like kind of be in
orbit with.

I think the last thing I'll say
just in terms of somebody who I

think is so important to me,
that is a symbol to a lot of the

like some of the things that I
think are best about this

industry is Snowfro.

He already gets, you know, a ton
of love and credit for this,

but like I don't think it's
enough.

Um, he, he is somebody who is
really embodies, uh just like

the type of people that I want
to, you know, run and build with

and uh contribute to this
industry's growth.

Like he has a family that he's
totally devoted to.

He has a company that he spends
all of his time thinking about

building and working with to
kind of like create value for

and with for an emergent
building and a new industry.

He contributes to other people
and other collectors and other

galleries and products and
services constantly without any

sort of acknowledgement or
credit, like he is out there

just like helping constantly and
I and a lot of this stuff

actually doesn't go seen.

He is a steward and an
ambassador for our entire

industry.

Everything from, you know,
meeting with one-on-one with

some of the world's most
influential women and men, to

giving panels you know, closed
doors or open doors that are

kind of like viewed by hundreds
of thousands or just a small

group of influential folks Just
you know, being a steward for

this technology stack and why
it's important those things add

up, like those things, all of
those things together, are just,

like you know, incredible.

But those things really do add
up and like they change how

people think about the space and
the world and like this

technology.

And very few are willing to
kind of sacrifice their time to

be able to do all the things
that he does, and he does them

all with a smile on his face.

And uh, he's not just uh.

You know my favorite artist, my
favorite crypto artist, or and

the squiggle is not just my
favorite crypto collect, crypto

art collection and it's.

I have a long list of favorites
, but this is at the very top.

It's he's.

He is also just like an
incredible human being, and so I

, um, I am.

It doesn't you don't see it
much on Twitter right now, but

like the things that that dude
does day to day is just it's

very inspirational and very
important, and he moves the

needle for so many of us.

So, um, anyway, I just want to
shine a light on that guy, uh,

cause I think he's very
important to this space.

Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more
, man.

Yeah, it's.

When you said he does it with a
smile on his face, it literally

made me smile, because the
interactions that I've had with

them are just are some of the
best you know, even however

short or long they may be.

It's like, yeah, he, he has so
much inbound.

It's probably ridiculous, and I
could not think of anyone more

who just encapsulates, you know
what this like, I guess, the

dream that a lot of us fell in
love, uh, fell in love with here

around what this, about what
this could be.

Um, so thanks for taking that
question and putting a unique

spin on it and then just
highlighting, you know, a bunch

of key players that that just
really, really have an impact on

, on your life.

Speaker 1: Um, yeah, thanks for
the thoughtful question.

Speaker 2: Hell, yeah, Hell,
yeah, man.

Well, I want to.

I want to wrap it up here.

Uh, Derek, is there any?

Um?

Yeah, Is there any place that
you want people to to, yeah, to

look at?

Is there anything you guys are
working on?

Uh, any place you want to
direct people's attention to

before we close it out today?

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, first
I'll just say like appreciate,

uh, all of the questions.

Um, it's just say like
appreciate all of the questions.

It's I mean like you obviously
like are very thoughtful and

eloquent, which makes like
chatting very easy.

But you also came like super
prepared and researched and

that's like for me it's super
fun and I'm honored that you

even took the time to kind of go
through my previous work and

materials like that.

So thank you for making this
conversation so enjoyable, I

would say in terms of just like
a stuff that's incoming.

Yeah, if you're working on
stuff that touches crypto, like

that's what Collab Currency does
, that's what we back founders

who are working on big problems
across this stack, then please

reach out info at collab
currencycom.

We'll we'll get sorted out to
infiltrate to kind of a my team

for for glitch, we've got this
amazing artist in residence that

we're going to be announcing
very, very soon, and so please

keep an eye on on glitch gallery
and the work that we do uh over

the next two months.

Uh, leading up to our blocks
weekend in November.

Um, our box weekend is
something that it's uh, uh an

event that we uh co-create a
number of the tracks with the

art blocks team on Madison is uh
has just built an amazing uh

program.

Year after year and this one's
no exception, we're running a

bunch of night exhibitions that
I think people will really enjoy

.

We've got a bunch of amazing
panels and panelists that are

going to touch on a wide variety
of topics.

That are things that people are
thinking about and interested

in hearing about, with some
amazing panel leaders that are

going to walk through those
things.

There will be announcements,
there will be brunches, there

will be food and coffee, and so
for folks going out to Marfa for

Artbox Weekend, please stop by,
glitch and enjoy yourself for

those three days.

And then, yeah, other than that
, you know, days Um, and then,

yeah, other than that, uh, you
know, I appreciate, uh,

appreciate the invite to come on
here and take a couple hours

out uh of my Thursday and just
riff on things that are

interesting.

I do appreciate it.

Speaker 2: Hell, yeah, man, uh,
dude, yeah, no, really, yeah,

thank you for the kind words,
man.

It was like I said, it was just
a.

It was, yeah, super fun to like
think or talk.

Talk with a thinker who thinks
about things really deep yeah,

it's literally one of my
favorite things.

So I'm happy that we went down
the rabbit holes.

We went down and, yeah, just
incredible, man.

So, yeah, and I also suck at
taking compliments, so that's

worth it.

I'm getting better at that.

But, yeah, I will definitely
see you at Gl.

Uh, cause I will be in Marfa
this year for sure.

Both me and Fungie from the
Schiller team will be there as

well.

So, um, awesome, yeah, man.

Speaker 1: Well, hell, yeah, do
it.

Uh, appreciate you.

Keep doing the amazing work
over at Schiller and, uh, I'll

see you in a couple months.

Speaker 2: Absolutely, man Take
care so.

Speaker 1: Thanks for watching.