Speaker 1: as an artist.

The only way you can really let
people down is if you stop

being an artist.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Curated, a
series of conversations with

the people shaping culture and
technology of the new internet.

This is a podcast series
produced by Schiller, the most

trusted marketing media and
consulting firm in crypto.

Before we jump in with today's
guest, we want to make it clear

that this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be considered
investment advice.

I am your host, buna, and today
I'm joined by Brian Brinkman, a

multidisciplinary artist whose
art has been celebrated across

the world for over a decade and
has made multiple appearances at

both Sotheby's and Christie's
auction houses.

From animation to code to
physical work, brian has a depth

and breadth to his practice
that few do, and I'm stoked to

dive deep and unpack it all.

Gm Brian, how are you man?

I'm well.

How are you?

Speaker 1: Doing good.

Good to see you.

Yeah, I hear you.

Speaker 2: It's been a good day
so far, man, and it's nice and

sunny here.

As you can clearly see, here in
Texas my room is very bright

and, yeah, just highly
caffeinated and excited for this

conversation, man.

How about you?

Speaker 1: I'm definitely
caffeinated.

I have one of these Kirkland
cold brew cans.

I'm a big fan of those Nice and
yeah, no, it's a solid day.

It's a little gloomy outside
today, but I'm feeling pretty

awake.

Speaker 2: Hell, yeah, hell yeah
, plus, I mean, with natural

meme coin season, it's like
there's usually a natural level

of anxiety in addition to the
caffeine that powers you through

the day.

Yeah, people aren't sleeping
much.

Yeah, we're definitely in that
no sleep zone or sleep not being

prioritized zone.

So happy to have you on the pod
.

Man.

Longtime listener, first time
caller We've had.

We chatted about this a while
ago in Austin, you know, and I

just remember having a chat with
you, meeting you there.

It was at that little brunch
that we did at Consensus, I

think it was.

So nearly a year later, man,
cool to have you on

no-transcript vibe to it yeah,
that's about accurate.

Um, austin's still like it's
very austin's really interesting

.

It's like the.

You know texas has its own
stick like, has its own like

reputation, and then there's
like austin that kind of defies

the rest of the reputation of
Texas.

So people kind of love it.

Austin's a bunch of hippies,
but we also own guns and we're

very pro-gun culture here.

So it's like it's kind of a
wonderful, weird mix.

It's got a great tech scene.

A lot of people come here to
you know just to do a lot of

people come here to you know,
just to do a lot of different

things.

So I often forget, you know,
I've lived here for a decade and

I often forget that like
there's all these things that

are always happening in my city
and I just choose to not do them

.

Speaker 1: Um, until like a
couple years ago really no, I

thought, yeah, you mentioned it
being weird and that's

definitely a big part of their
ethos.

Yeah, growing up I always saw
Austin.

I always kind of thought of
Austin as the Alamo, drafthouse,

mondo kind of hub.

So to me it always had this
cool indie film vibe, especially

with the South by Southwest and
stuff, and so it was

interesting getting to kind of
check it out and I love how kind

of accessible it is, walking
around and stuff.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have,
and we like our scooters too.

You know, you probably rode
around on a few skips, oh oh, I

did.

Speaker 1: It was great.

I became a real scooter guy in
the last year.

Because of that and VCon, you
know I wouldn't dare ride a

scooter in New York City, but
for those type of towns it's

fantastic.

Speaker 2: I mean New York.

It doesn't really make sense
because, like, I mean walking, I

don't know something about New
York City makes me want to walk,

like, and if I don't walk, I
ride the subway, you know, and

like the subway because you know
what was really wild.

When I first went to New York,
I, like on Google Maps I never,

I only use the function of like,
you know, like when I put in my

address on uh gps, I want to go
to, it just shows a little car,

like there's no public transit
system.

That's like locked into google
maps.

And I remember when I got to new
york I just kind of refused to

learn the public transportation
system because I was like this

is too complicated, there's no
way I can figure this out.

Um, but then I literally just
toggled it on Google and figured

out that it was just like by
the second up to date and it was

just always on point and it was
the easiest thing to use.

And I was like, wow, like Texas
sucks in this regard, like we

have nothing like this.

It was incredible, but we got
scooters.

Speaker 1: I do love walking
around New York.

That was one of my favorite
things when I first moved here

was just kind of walking in
various directions and getting

lost and then you slowly kind of
piece together.

New York feels so big at first,
but then when you kind of

connect the neighborhoods, the
whole city starts to shrink in

your mind in a nice way.

And it's always that really
exciting feeling where, like

wait a second, I know where I'm
at now.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it takes a
little bit to get there, though,

like it took me two trips, you
know, to kind of get a little

bit more cozy with the city,
because the only thing I knew

about New York before this was
Staten Island, because I had a

friend that lived out in Staten
Island.

So I just flew into New Jersey
and then just drove across the

bridge and avoided the city.

You know, I just never really
went, did any of that.

So, yeah, excited to be back
this year, though it's shaping

up to be a fun year.

Speaker 1: I'm excited for what
was it?

I don't know when this will air
, but we're only about like a

week or two away from NFT NYC
and that'll be wild.

It will be.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it will be feel
like, um, it's a little bit

more exciting this year, uh,
just seeing all the events in

Paris, uh, and just seeing you
know I I can't remember.

I think there's there's
something happening in Korea, uh

, right now, and I know um yeah,
there's.

Speaker 1: I know Grant Yoon's
doing a show with Avalon Art.

Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, that's
what I was, that's what I was

getting at.

I couldn't, I couldn't really
remember, but, um, yeah, it just

feels like an exciting week and
I feel like a lot of people are

going to be at marfa this year.

That's like really what I think
a lot of people are.

I don't know, after seeing the
fomo on the timeline last year,

I think it's gonna explode this
year.

Speaker 1: Um, I know marf is
the thing that just eludes me

every year.

For some reason I haven't gone
yet.

It's one of my regrets, but
there always seems to align when

I'm doing another thing within
a week of it.

I can't make it work out, but
maybe this will be the year.

It's not really convenient to
get there either, so it's like

well, that's one of the problems
is, when I go oh yeah, I'm

going to go, and then you get on
a trip planner or whatever and

you're like oh it's, it's going
to take me like 20 hours to get

there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yep, it's
.

It's also really funny being a
native Texan.

Everyone was like, well, this
is your first time being a Marfa

.

Like why being a marfa?

Like why haven't you come here
before?

Haven't you lived?

Don't you live in texas your
whole life?

That's like I just don't
casually make an eight and a

half hour drive like across the
state.

Like it's like you know most
people forget how big texas is

and it's like like that is not
just a normal thing that I go do

.

um, it's not texas is literally
the biggest uh outside of alaska

, but it is huge we're gonna
upset, upset Connor here,

because our creative director,
connor, is based and from Alaska

and he always loves to tell me
how Texas is not as big as

Alaska but as far as in habit,
like a place, continental, in

places you can actually live,
texas is bigger but like

geographically Alaska, you can
fit two of Texas and Alaska,

which is wild?

Speaker 1: Um, I don't know.

I watched that new true
detective season and I don't

think I want to live in Alaska.

Speaker 2: That place looks
scary, yeah, and the fact of it

being dark every night, uh, or
like for a good portion of the

of the year, um, there's no way.

I watched it too.

That was a.

What did you think about that
like?

Let me ask you this in
comparison to the first one,

like, because the first one's
like the goat, you know, like

that's like.

Yeah, I don't know, I liked it
but I don't.

Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil
anything but, similarly to the

previous seasons, I enjoy that.

It really baits you into
thinking it's going to be a

supernatural thing and then it
explains it all in a way that

you don't fully.

You wouldn't have been able to
piece together very early on, I

think.

So I enjoyed the season.

It was depressing and dark and
all sorts of stuff, but I, you

know, I especially the early
part where it really leans on

that kind of the thing aesthetic
of like was there monsters in

alaska, kind of thing.

I liked that.

But yeah, I, the first season is
really great and uh, the second

season was solid I think I
don't really even remember it

very well and then I totally
missed the third season so solid

, I think I don't really even
remember it very well, and then

I totally missed the third
season.

So, but I did.

There was a point in this
season spoiler alert where they

say time is a flat circle and
you're like, oh yeah, they said

it, they said the thing yeah,
yeah, so season two was abysmal,

season three was actually okay.

Speaker 2: I think season three
suffered because of how bad

season two was abysmal.

Season three was actually okay.

I think season three suffered
because of how bad season two

was.

And then season four felt
really good.

It felt like they were like so
fucking back, if you will.

You know, like it was like okay
, cool, we tried with Colin

Farrell and the hip kind of city
vibe kind of thing in season

two and in season three.

I think they really nailed
season three, but people were

still just like it was that bad,
season two was that bad and it

really cast a negative shadow.

Speaker 1: Yeah, this might be
controversial, but around the

same time as True Detective,
Fargo came out and I think Fargo

is the far superior series and
I think every season of that has

been pretty great.

I really enjoyed the recent
season, but there's very similar

shows.

Yeah, I just like that.

There's a little bit of humor
in the Fargo one at least.

Speaker 2: Very true, and I'm
not going to say that's a hot

take, because I haven't seen
Fargo so I can't defend that oh

man, the second season
especially is great.

Okay, you're giving me some good
things to go back and watch.

Because, I don't know man, I'm
kind of at least for the most

part jaded on like current TV,
like most movies, you know, with

few exceptions.

So it's like I find myself
going back and discovering all

these like hidden gems from
recommended to from people that

I trust and that I like, uh, to
watch instead and bide my time

until something good comes out.

Um, it just seems, I don't know
man, it just seems.

Seems very content versus like
actual storytelling that's being

broadcasted right now and it's
just I don't know.

Speaker 1: So, yeah, I'll have
to check that out, man is that

I'm constantly looking at the
internet because of this

wonderful space we're in and
part of it is my attention span

has shortened.

I mean, we're in this new age
of like TikTok, where everything

is bite-sized and trying to
watch a 60 minute long TV show

sometimes feels like torture,
and so I don't know, I'm much

more of a 30 minute kind of guy,
but no, I don't know.

I think what I try to do is
every night I try to go

downstairs and watch like a half
hour to an hour of tv, so that

stepping away from the computer
and spending time with my wife

and kind of disconnecting from a
few.

Um.

But yeah, I can't binge watch
or anything like that.

I'm just not built.

Built for that, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I might
be in a set not in the camp of

binge watching, but I still call
me like a boomer for this

mindset.

But like I still really
appreciate a three hour movie,

like I, I just really I think
that's, it's a, it's a huge risk

to take and especially when you
can pull it off, it's just a

spectacle, like I think you know
I got, we got spoiled with Lord

of the Rings in the very
beginning.

And now you know, like I was
like the Oppenheimer marketing

department in web three, um,
because I just thought that was

a brilliant from start to finish
in a docu series to be that

captivating for three hours when
there's no real action was an

impressive I mean, at least for
me, a feat.

And now dune, you know I've
read, I've read dune and dune

messiah, and so obviously fan
boyd about that one as well, and

that one's running up to three
hours as well, um, so yeah, call

me, call me like old school,
but like I just think that like

the three hour, like the two and
a half to three hour movies are

, I don't know, I feel like not
many people who like don't know

what they're doing Do those, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 1: You know like, like,
yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna

be disappointed in me, cause it
must've been about a year ago I

bought Dune on Blu-ray 4k Cause
I was like I got gotta see this

in the highest resolution.

And then every time I'm like I
don't want to watch three hours

of a movie.

Right now I still have not seen
it.

And now the second one came out
and I'm like, oh, just I, I see

the blu-ray sitting on my shelf
, yep.

And I'm like, yep, I gotta
watch this at some point.

I just gotta pull that band-aid
off, like everyone says it's

incredible, I know it is, um,
but I just gotta.

But that's the benefit of
theaters now, like Alamo I

mentioned.

You go there and eat dinner and
stuff, and it kind of makes the

three hours go by a little
easier.

Speaker 2: It does, it does, and
I think movie theaters are

stepping up and they're really
trying to understand it.

People have great places to
watch movies in their homes, so

what makes the theater truly
different than watching it in

your home?

Obviously, imax.

That's not in most homes.

Speaker 1: I love gimmicks, I
love 3D, I love 4DX, I love all

that junk.

I saw Oppenheimer and 70
millimeter or whatever, which I

would argue looked worse than
digital.

The one I saw had like you
could see like scratches in the

film and stuff and I'm like, oh,
is this a better experience?

I don't know, it was like
dimmer because of the projector

was kind of bad.

Yeah, you know it's, it's at
its best, it's better, but at

its worst it's not um, and so
take it or leave.

But I do love gimmicks.

Speaker 2: I'm a fan of all yeah
, yeah, I mean that I think we

had different experiences,
because I, uh, I did watch it in

70 millimeter imax film um, and
you saw the imax version.

Speaker 1: Okay, I saw that.

I saw the regular theatrical 70
.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, imax was the
like, because there was only

like a handful of theaters that
actually showed it in that

format, and like two of those
theaters were in Texas.

And so I said, well, the
markets, the market's dead,

everyone's at each other's
throats, like it's 106 degrees

in Texas.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we.

Speaker 2: We're just going to
do some silly shit and go drive,

you know, two hours each way to
watch a three hour movie, and

that's how we're going to spend
our time.

Speaker 1: Yeah, there was only
one in New York, and it's

Lincoln Center, which is
essentially booked the entire

run instantly because there's
only so many seats and so many

people in New York, and so it
was impossible to see it in its

true form, unfortunately.

I can imagine, but maybe it'll
I'm sure it'll get replayed at

something like the Museum of
Moving Image or something.

Speaker 2: It will Like.

There's no way it doesn't.

I know Nolan is his like
notorious well, notorious is not

the right word, but like he's
known for re-releasing his films

in you know that in that kind
of special format.

He did it for Tenet, he did it
for tenant, he did it for, um,

what's the other movie he did it
for?

I think he did it for
interstellar.

I know he did that one as well.

Um, I think he did it for
batman back in the day, uh.

So you know no one is known for
for doing that, uh, because he

no it was a great song, yeah, I
mean.

Speaker 1: Some would say it was
the best picture of the year.

One might say, though, some
people would be the voting body

of the osars.

Speaker 2: I mean, but the
reality is, I mean, is there,

was there anything in your
opinion, even?

Speaker 1: close.

Hmm, I really enjoyed poor
things, even though it was very

weird.

Okay, um, I thought that that
movie felt wholly original, um,

even though it was a retelling
of Frankenstein, but it felt so

fresh and different and weird.

I like some of his past.

I really liked the Lobster, but
that one was definitely up

there.

I'm trying to think.

I watched American Fiction the
other night and that was good.

I wouldn't say it was best
picture, good, but it was fun.

I mean, oppenheimer was
definitely very, very cinematic.

It was very well made, it was
very meticulous, and so I really

enjoyed it.

But I remember it was that
weekend I went and saw Barbie

and Oppenheimer, yeah, and it
was one of those things where I

walked out of it and I go oh,
oppenheimer is the better movie,

but I liked Barbie more.

Barbie was just fun and funny
and I had a great time watching

it.

Where Oppenheimer, there's just
this constant dread.

Yeah, by the end of it you just
feel exhausted and you feel bad

about everything.

And so it's a better movie, but
it's not an enjoyable one.

Speaker 2: It's not one that
I'll probably go back and

rewatch, you know, yeah, I mean
I can respect that, because

there's movies like that where I
think for me that movie was

Dallas Buyers Club, where it was
like the movie was phenomenal

and that's the reason why I will
not see it again, because it

was that good.

It was so good that it made me.

Speaker 1: Requiem for a Dream.

That was one for me where I was
like once you watch that, once

you're like I don't ever want to
sit through that again.

But it's a great movie and
that's why it's a great movie.

It's because it made you feel
something that you don't want to

like feel again.

Um, yeah, yeah.

Well, that was the one in
college.

Everyone's like we got to put
that on.

I'm like why do you guys want
to watch, watching people like

spiral?

Speaker 2: um, I still haven't
seen that one, to be honest.

Um, oh, so I might have some
homework to do.

Good luck, I appreciate it
Might be what I say for a little

while.

Speaker 1: I'm curious if it
holds up well over time.

Yeah, that's an old movie.

Some movies just definitely age
.

They exist within their time
and that movie really feels like

an early 2000s one.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: We'll see.

I'll let you know um.

Speaker 1: I'll report back to
you but um, we're we're going

down some tangents I'm having.

Speaker 2: We are I'm glad
because, like I, I part of me,

part of me is like we're gonna
get to your story eventually and

we're gonna talk about what you
enjoy eventually.

But I think we're doing the
second second thing though.

So, uh, I think it's all part
of the story to be honest.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I'm enjoying this so far,
and thanks for entertaining some

of these tangents.

Speaker 1: I don't get to talk
about it too often.

Oh same, yeah, it's fun to I
don't know At a certain point,

and I'm more than happy to go
down these paths.

Speaker 2: But uh, when, as an
artist in the space, you tell

your origin story so many times
that you just start to look

forward to the questions that
come after you get through it

that's kind of why I like I, you
know, I've heard that before um

, and that's kind of kind of why
, you know, that's why we're

talking about movies right now
and then we can talk about maybe

, yeah, yeah, talk about the
space as well.

So, um, yeah, I've heard that.

Yeah, I've definitely heard
that a few times.

So, um, I can only imagine, you
know, uh, like, I'm sitting

here the one doing the interview
, but, like, as someone who

wants to do interview and get,
get some media presence, it's

like the same scripted questions
over and over and over, and

I've heard that before.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: But cool man.

No, there's nothing against it.

It's important and you hit
different audiences and it's all

a part of it.

But at a certain point it
starts to feel like you're

reading a rehearsed transcript,
Because you say it so many times

that you've honeded it down to
its uh, it's the quickest way of

getting through totally man.

Speaker 2: Totally well, let's
start with a broad, let's

transition to like a broad,
open-ended question.

Um, and we'd love to maybe do a
little reflection on if it was

the same, if you would have had
the same answer today versus

maybe when you started creating.

Art is why art.

Speaker 1: Why art?

That's a good question.

I think, realistically, a lot of
it boils down to being able to

get reactions out of people
creating reactions, and I think

that's always been what hooked
me into the art world.

So you know, it started when I
was in high school making

cartoons on the internet and
you'd get comments on like

Newgrounds and people would say
like this is great or this is

terrible, and that feeling that
I was putting something out into

the world and it was being seen
and having some sort of effect

on people positive or negative
was so exciting that it was like

, okay, how do I create moments
that are more impactful when

people absorb them, and so that
that that's kind of the driver

behind the art.

But um, and I think that's been
the case throughout and various

, you know, my career has always
been about creating stuff to be

seen in various forms, and
sometimes it's serious and sad,

and sometimes it's funny and
made to make people laugh, but

it's always about getting a
reaction out of people I guess

the question that leads me to is
like, have you, like, before

you were creating art, were
there any moments, maybe, like

where you kind of sought that
attention seeking, like, like

trying to get a reaction?

Speaker 2: you know what I mean,
uh, I know what.

Um, well, probably I was
probably.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I was an
annoying kid that was trying to

get my parents' attention or,
you know, get the neighbor's

attention.

I was.

You know my mom tells me
stories about when we would take

, like the Greyhound bus from
Nebraska to Georgia and I would

go up to everybody on the bus
and say, hey, I'm Brian, who are

you, what are you doing?

You know, I would just try to.

You know it was embarrassing
for her but I was just bored and

wanted to meet people, and so I
think that I think there's

always been that level of look
at me from my childhood that

still exists.

But you know, I hope I'm not
trying to be like a prank joke

guy or anything like that, but I
do think there is that drive

for artists to feel seen and
have their ideas and their

messages and their creative art
being seen and felt by others,

and so I do think it's a
continuation.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, we all
would.

There's some psychology.

A therapist might be able to
summarize it better, probably,

man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's an
interesting question because as

adults, we just kind of find
like there's certain things that

we can change about ourselves
and then there's certain things

that we just like it's just
inherently who we are and we

just find ways to channel that
in different, in different uh

outputs or into different
outputs.

Um, you know, like very similar
for me is like I was like I

just enjoyed talking to people
and so that's like why, like, I

do it all the fucking time on a
podcast, um, and you know it

just, yeah, it was.

I was always like that as a kid
.

Um, you know, just, sometimes
too, I would always make fun of

my father because I got it from
him.

Uh, we always made, always made
fun of him, cause he would just

always, he always knew someone
wherever we went, and it was

like this running joke between
my mother, where, whether it was

a brand new uh, you know
Tex-Mex restaurant or if it was

at a Rockets game or if it was
at whatever it was, like he

always ran into someone he knew,
and so I think I just inherited

that from him and like you know
the irony of that, yeah, and

now that's me on Twitter.

You know, it's yeah, so, but
yeah, it's cool to hear that.

I mean, it's like I think
that's something that, like,

I've struggled with or not,
maybe not struggle with, but

like observed as a collector, uh
, media host, observer,

participator you know um, in
this industry where, like you

know, we have these, like we're
in this because there's a strong

push for decentralization.

There's a strong push, you know
uh, to to like kind of break

down the current systems, um,
and but I also notice, in a

world of everything being
decentralized, attention is also

decentralized and it's
incredibly fragmented um, where

it's like you have x, you have
instagram, you have a website,

you have farcaster, you have
tiktok, you have all these

different places and, um, I've
seen some like great efforts

from you know, like, you know
patrick uh amadon with like the

404 stuff, just like getting
artists work, yeah, scene.

So I guess the question here, or
I guess the, the dialogue or

wherever you want to take this,
is, like you know, maybe what's

missing, you know, for that like
, uh, like, is that still a

major challenge of artists just
wanting their work to be seen?

And, if, if so, kind of, what
are the?

I guess, what are the things
that are preventing that from

happening right now?

Speaker 1: That's a good
question.

Yeah, exposure, that's the
challenge.

Attention yeah, you can make
awesome art, but how do you get

it seen?

There's a few things that go
into that, in my opinion, as the

artist.

It's up to the artist to market
themselves by telling their

story and explaining their art
and giving the content for

others to share.

I think that's a big part of it
.

And then the other part is
connecting with other people,

networking, building trust so
that when you have that content

to share, other people share it
and it starts to pass around.

And you mentioned a bunch of
great projects.

I'm doing a Click, create, drop
next month.

I do the show on Fridays with
Adam, where we highlight

emerging artists.

I think there's a lot of ways
that artists like Patrick and

myself are trying to build
platforms to help share, but

again, it's all going to be
limited to the amount of

attention.

With the show we do on Friday's
Art First I do with Adam.

We all bring three pieces, so
there's nine artists that we

share.

At the end, patrick's 404 is
like thousands of artists, which

is great, but it's almost too
much to fully.

It becomes as crazy as the
twitter timeline, where it's

really hard to absorb it all.

And so there does have to be a
level of curation where things

are whittled down to a degree
and you know there's a lot of

things in the space that do that
very well.

But how do you get on those
curators radars?

And that has to do with going
back to marketing and having

your, your story and your
website and your link tree and

all these things available so
that when someone quickly goes

who is this artist?

I want to learn about them?

They have that information
within five seconds, because

otherwise they're going to move
on to the next distraction.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I
think you touched on a lot of

great points there and that's
yeah, cause when we, when we

host our Wednesday space for
office hours, it's we try to

like offer like free marketing
and consulting support, you know

, for people, whether it's an
artist, whether it's a builder,

whether it's founder, whatever
the case may be Um, and that's

kind of like our way to try to,
you know, get the ball rolling

or get you know, um, some some
momentum going in someone's life

, uh, that that just is looking
for help.

And that's like the one thing
that we notice, or the one

common thread is that marketing
it, it marketing and art to a

lot of artists just do not like,
it's like a dirty word, you

know where.

It's like something they don't
want to do.

They just want to focus on
making the art.

They want to focus on just kind
of, yeah, just doing what they

do best, which is create like
dank work to make us feel like a

certain way or make us, you
know, like yeah, which you know,

uh, there's something to be
said about that.

But you know, there's this
interesting yin and yang that

I've noticed, where, in 2021, it
was like okay, the

establishment, no middleman
whatsoever, even if the

middlemen are like probably
providing some value, like we're

making so much money that we
don't need anything right now.

You know, to now going through
my first cycle, uh, noticing

like, well, hey, to now going
through my first cycle, noticing

like, well, hey, maybe there
are some good intermediaries

where it could take some of the
pressure off of the artist, that

maybe the cut kind of like back
and forth go, cause I talk with

post book a lot, and she was
like she's honest, like all the

time, like I would pay, gladly,
pay someone to do PR, you know,

and to do to market drops and to
do some of this stuff because

like it's, it's a lot of work
and it's it's way different

skill than just creating the art
and telling the story.

So it's just something I've
noticed.

Speaker 1: Yeah Well, she's
incredible, um, and she's really

good at marketing, not just her
NFT work but her physical work

as well.

Um, I, I agree, but for me I
find that the marketing is its

own creative art form and how
you go about marketing is its

own.

Its own you know presentation
and its own kind of exhibition

that you're you're creating your
gallery exhibition with these

threads and tweets and how you,
how you explain it.

And I really do think if you
look at the, the biggest art in

the space, it's often
accompanied by um articles that

those artists wrote about it,
whether it's tyler hobbs or

dimitri and how they explain it.

Or with um, you know proof
grails, where they interview the

artists and give you backstory
into the art.

Having that kind of knowledge
when you buy the art supplements

the value in a way that really
changes how people collect.

And so there is this idea of oh
, I should offload that to other

people, and sometimes that's
great, but it depends what kind

of artist you want to be, and
for me, I want my marketing to

feel as kind of homegrown and
authentic as me and my art,

because it's, you know, I would
feel weird if I had like a huge

team that was like creating all
this content or something, um.

But you know, I do think at a
certain point certain artists

get really big and then you have
to kind of go that damien hirst

route or whatever.

You have a studio, or you know,
like rafiq, he has like a huge

studio with dozens of artists
that are like helping him out,

and that's how he's able to
accomplish these huge big swing

ideas.

So it really, you know, it's
important to grow with demand,

but, like you said, bear versus
bull, I'd much rather be

self-sufficient and not have
overhead as they say Totally.

Speaker 2: That's a great point,
man, and I think it all has

like.

I think that what you touched
on was interesting to me is that

there's obviously levels and
career progression just with.

You know, it's no different in
art than it is in any other.

You know profession and so it's
kind of it's it's cool to kind

of hear at what stages that that
might make sense versus like

what might not make sense.

Do you and I know you said like
right now you don't really you

wanted to feel homegrown,
authentic you, and not really

have a lot of overhead.

You know, have you ever
envisioned a world where you

thought, like man, that would be
nice, or like what that would

look like?

If you like what would?

Basically, what would you
justify like?

How would you justify having
that?

Where would you have to be in
your career?

Speaker 1: have to be in your
career at the top of the last,

at the top of the bull market in
2021.

I think I was like maybe I
should go get a studio in the

city.

Um, so there's definitely.

You know, there was that
euphoria moment, um in in.

To be honest, like I do have
that system set up in that I'll

do a drop with something like
unit london and they'll send

camera crew out and they'll film
a behind-the-scenes thing and

they'll create the marketing.

But it's for one drop versus
the whole thing.

And the same thing like if I'm
doing a really complicated 3D

piece, I'll call in a buddy to
help me do some modeling or

something.

Or you know, if I'm doing a
generative art project, I'll

call in a buddy to help me with
the code.

A generator of our project,
I'll call and a buddy to help me

with the code.

And so it's certainly totally
okay to have help and rely on

others and collaborate, but I
usually do it as a as needed

basis versus having some
full-time um team or something

that makes sense.

Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, like I,
I feel even just yeah, uh, if I

were to be, if I, if I were to
be, if I were to take the path

of an artist like that to me
would just I don't having too

many hands in the pie all the
time, it's just not super cozy.

So I, I can definitely, uh, I
can definitely relate to that.

I'm of the camp of like
figuring out how to do things on

a broad scale, like breadth
versus depth, and like just

taking but just taking a little
bit longer to maybe perfect and

hone those skills, um, and maybe
struggle a little bit in the

beginning, but you build some of
that over time.

So when you do randomly need
that one one-off thing, uh, from

someone else, you can like tap
someone and you know who to look

for, because you know what
works and what doesn't work yeah

, right, yeah, no, that's been.

Speaker 1: I mean, one of the
things I've tried to avoid in

this space is accidentally
becoming a business.

Let me be fair.

I have an LLC, I am a business,
but like I don't do big 10K

projects, I don't do any of
these things that might require

me to have higher mods and do
all these things.

You know, I try to keep
everything I do pretty small

scale because I don't want to
ask, I don't want to become a

manager, I don't want to have to
worry about keeping people busy

that are working for me.

That seems like it's
counterintuitive to me being

creative yeah, that I mean.

Speaker 2: That makes a lot of
sense and I can imagine like,

yeah, being responsible for
people is really hard, um like,

and you're about to like I'm not
sure we can cut this out, if

not, but you're about to be
responsible for another human as

well, am I right?

Speaker 1: that's right, yeah,
cool, so that'll.

Speaker 2: That'll certainly
divide my attention totally I

and I I wish you luck on that
because, like the parents here

in web 3, I have the utmost
respect whether, regardless of

how you are involved here, this
space consumes so much attention

and learning how to, like you
know you're not going to neglect

your kit.

It's like that.

It feels like an unstoppable
force, meets like an immovable

object and it's just a constant
like tug of war.

You know, with that um and I
just admire a lot of the parents

here I just wanted I always
give a shout out to the parents

and I'm about to have a lot more
admiration when I have to see

how hard it is for sure, um for
sure, man, um.

So you, something you touched on
is like wanting to do like a

lot of different things, and you
know, like maybe not keeping,

maybe like not doing a bunch of
large scale.

Yeah, a bunch of large scale.

You know whether it's projects
or drops or whatever the case.

However, you want to like
whatever you want to call it.

I'm curious, like I have my own
definition, but I'd like I

always, I'm always curious to
know other people's kind of how

they think about scarcity, and
I'd love to riff on you, maybe a

little bit back and forth with
that.

But how do you, in a digital
age, how do you think about

scarcity?

And how have you thought about
scarcity as you've grown as an

artist?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

So a while back I made a chart
that was a kind of a pyramid

cone.

I talked about value versus
scarcity and one of ones being

at the top, and then generative,
and then large additions, and

then po-aps and all this free
stuff, and I think of it like

that where, like, I want to keep
that structure where the one of

ones feel rare, like last year
I think I minted five, one of

ones the whole year, um, so each
one had it.

You know, one was sotheby's,
one was Christie's, one was AOTM

they're made for special
moments where they can have

their time, and then what I like
to do is just sprinkle

interesting projects throughout.

So I know a lot of artists are
kind of of this mindset of like,

ooh, I've got to do one big
project for the year and then

kind of do that.

Ooh, I've got to do one big
project for the year and then

kind of do that.

I think that is too risky
because if it doesn't work out

then you wasted a whole year,
and so I would much rather do

small projects on, like, say, a
monthly basis, a monthly drop.

And so you know, looking at
this year, I did a Memes Lab

trade-in drop in January and
then in February I did Art Dubai

, created four editions of 25
each, and then I did a drop with

Super Chief, like a week ago,
which was an edition of 50.

And so I look at those as like
okay, those fall into this

mid-range edition size.

So far this year I've put out a
little under 200 editions into

the supply of my ecosystem and I
think if I can keep that to

maybe like a thousand total NFTs
that I release into the wild a

year, that's a safe number to
keep growing.

But it does ebb and flow based
on the demand of the space.

And I have never done open
editions and I try not to put

myself in a position where I
lose control of a project.

I want to keep everything small
enough that it feels special to

hold.

I do think there's a kind of
threshold when you collect art.

If you collect something that
is too large, it doesn't feel

special and then it just kind of
it's like hidden folder

material, and so you want to
make sure that people feel

special, whether it's the
mechanics make them feel special

for collecting it or, uh, the
scarcity makes them feel special

.

But, like you know, x copy put
out a thousand or a million, a

million flies.

Um, does anybody feel special
holding that fly?

I don't think so, but it's
still cool to hold, but that's

like that is essentially junk
drawer art.

Yeah, yeah, uh, it's a.

It's gonna cool to hold, but
that's like that is essentially

junk drawer art.

It's going to forever be a $5
piece of art and that's totally

cool.

And shout out to Neon Glitch who
kills it.

He did my Eminem Pepe.

That I did with Memes Lab in
January.

I think he's just one of the
best modelers in the space.

But those are the things where
it's like if you do do an open

edition, you put yourself in a
position where a million of them

get minted.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, uh,
you're, you're very.

I'm glad you touched on that
because, as a you know, on the,

I haven't had you know like
where, where I fall into the the

spectrum of collecting art,
like I have very few, one of

ones that are like my prized,
prized possessions, but you're,

you're.

And then there's, you know, I I
got very exhausted during oe

season last january.

That was, that was brutal, that
was fucking brutal and it was,

it was exhausting, it was
frustrating, it was, uh, there

was some that, some art that was
really cool, that came of it.

But at the same time, I watched
a lot of artists lose control,

like you just said.

Like they, it's great to have
1500 new collectors, but how are

you going to keep all of them
happy?

And most of them are not here
for the art, right, like you

know, um most that well, I think
that's just touching on open

editions.

Speaker 1: The success of open
editions came from, I would

argue, maybe three or four
artists Slam Sunday, alpha

Centauri, kid Terrell Jones and
Daily Grace.

Each of those had roadmaps with
future burns built in and

expectations.

And so to do an open edition?

Inherently the collectors, and
we see it with this X copy.

Well, I'm going to mint 100 of
these because there's probably

going to be a burn in the future
.

There's just an assumption and
an expectation of speculation

that makes me never want to do
an open edition because there's

a built-in speculation to it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you, yeah, it's
there.

There definitely is like I, I
would say the one with x copy

with the max pain.

That was one of the but that
was a fun experience.

Like he somehow found a way to
make that really fun.

You know, um, I'm not sure if
you like so, but you're right,

like that to me seems like a lot
of pressure and I watched a lot

of artists like crumble as a
result of that, like not having

that planned out before they did
it, but just kind of catching

the high train or catching, you
know, and I think, and you have

to, if you're going to do, if
you're going to sell a roadmap,

it has to have an end at the
beginning, otherwise it goes

forever and no one's ever happy
in scarcity.

Is that like I think the more
digital we go, the looser our

view of scarcity is?

Like I think scarcity today,
with how like we can store

digital objects on a, in a, in a
in an infinite space, um

affects my perception of what a
scarce object means.

Like I think, in addition of
500, yeah, you know, is not

really that's, you know, it's
like, not really like that.

It still feels comfy, you know,
especially like in the context

of an artist's career, if it's
still very early, that feels

super comfy over like a 20 to 30
year time horizon, you know,

like that, um, and I think as we
grow more though, like in the

beginning though that would have
felt, you know, that would have

felt like way too much because
we have physical, we have, we,

we like, we only have so much
physical space.

And so I think at least the way
I view scarcity is, you know,

things that take out, like my
apartment is a very scarce

resource because, like, I cannot
collect a lot of physical work

because I only have so many
walls, because I only have so

many walls.

But I collect a lot of art
digitally and I am a little bit

more frivolous with how I spend
my time and what I spend money

on.

So I don't know, I think that a
lot of people the point I'm

getting at is that a lot of
people, scarcity is important.

I'm not going to sit here and
say it's not, but I think

there's such a strong emphasis
on this where it's like if you

are really looking at this in
the context of your life, doing

a maybe a larger drop here and
there, if it makes sense, if it

aligns with the story, if it has
an intent, if it has some sort

of an end to it, like with May's
postcards.

I loved that.

You know, that was one for me.

That was like the bright spot
every single month I got to look

for I knew what it was, I knew
it was going to cost every month

and I got to look forward to
getting a new piece every single

month and I allocated 0.05
every single month for that and

it was great.

But it is like a larger supply
and I think a lot of people are

very scared to do something like
that.

Speaker 1: I certainly am, yeah,
yeah, do something like that.

Um, I certainly am, yeah, um,
yeah, no, I think I learned when

I did nimbuds on art blocks
that was 400 generative

additions and very quickly I saw
like someone sweep the floor

and have 75 out of the 400 or
whatever, and he was able to

manipulate the market.

And that was a point where I
was like, oh, I don't want to do

large additions where someone
else has more control over the

narrative of this project than I
do.

Um, that that made me realize
like, oh, there's a huge risk

when you put too much supply out
and people can then play with

it in weird ways.

Sometimes it works out great,
like I think, like Jack Butcher

did it and I think, talk about
someone that figures out how to

end games, like he's really good
at figuring out how to say,

okay, well, it's over, now you
guys deal with it and I'm going

to go do the next thing.

A lot of artists we've seen
can't figure out how to stop

those things, because there's
always going to be people that

expect more I think you're right
.

Speaker 2: But I think also,
what jack does really well is he

finds a way to like, make, like
, even if it's not a direct tie,

like loosely tie the next thing
together, you know, or like to

add to the story.

Yeah, no, and I think he's
really good, he is, and he's an

incredibly interesting mind and
like, honestly, I, you know, I

had him on the podcast when I
was still solo, before I joined

Schiller, and this was before
all of his, you know, like his

massive career shift as an
artist and I'll have to admit,

like I am so lost in everything
he does, like I respect a lot of

him for what he does because
he's captivated the minds of a

lot of interesting people and
given a lot of people a lot of

reasons to think about things
and speculate on ideas and go

down rabbit holes, very similar
to like squiggles.

I kind of I kind of associate
those two loosely together

because, you know, people obsess
at squiggles on on every.

There's a lot of different
levels of obsession and you can

choose which one you want to
participate in, whether it's

just purely visual, whether it's
just the traits, whether it's

just, you know, the yeah, like,
yeah, all the different things.

So I yeah, you're right, he's a
master at it.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: I look at a lot of
what he does as kind of an

evolution of pack.

Um, I think a lot of his
mechanics are building on things

pack did, but figuring out how
to rework them in a way that has

a happy ending, um, but a lot
of his stuff is very much the

same, like simple art,
interesting mechanics, creating

and letting the collectors kind
of build the lore themselves.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're
right and see, I was so lost on

Pac, but now that you say that,
I mean that makes a lot of sense

.

Obviously, Pac did something
really cool, or else he wouldn't

have gotten to where he's
gotten, but he obviously did a

lot of things that didn't sound
too cool either.

Speaker 1: He wasn't able to tie
it all together at the end.

Speaker 2: Which is what makes a
good story.

You know, I'm not going to
watch a three-hour movie if the

ending sucks.

Speaker 1: And you know I'm, you
know, rooting for him to come

back and figure out how to bring
it all together.

Totally, man totally.

Speaker 2: Um, yeah, it's an
interesting space, like that's.

One of the things that's been
always super interesting to me

is, you know, when someone
regardless of whether they're an

artist or not like, kind of
puts himself in a position like

that, what's the comeback story?

How do you everyone loves a
comeback story.

Um, you know, even if you
didn't like the person who is

coming back, um, there's, I
think there's.

What's the comeback story?

How do you?

Everyone loves a comeback story
.

You know, even if you didn't
like the person who is coming

back, there's, I think there's
an inherent psychological thing

in us that always loves to see
how this plays out.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I mean,
pat gets a lot of hate, but I'll

give him my props.

I've collected his work.

I think it's always very fun
mechanics.

I've played some of the the
mystery games and he's collected

my art.

I appreciate that, um.

But yeah, I think he took a lot
of big swings ahead of their

time.

He made a meme, coin token ash.

I remember that that meta.

He made an ai project, lost
poets ahead of the ai meta, and

so the question is, will those
things look?

Will people look back on that
and say, oh, this was inventive,

or will they all say they were
failures?

Speaker 2: I think that's the
question yeah, and we may not

know for a long time, but that's
also what's interesting is that

I'm sure a lot of artists that
received a lot of hate in their

day.

Um, you know, like it doesn't
really matter what the people in

the moment were thinking, it
just really mattered on its

impact on the, on the longer,
yeah story arc, you know, uh, I

think his, his yeah, I was gonna
say his his biggest mistake was

that he kind of went.

Speaker 1: He just stopped
creating and that's the.

That's the only way you can
really lose in the space.

I mean, there's plenty if you
scam people, that's one thing,

but as an artist, the only way
you can really let people down

is if you stop being an artist.

And I I've collected many
artists that have left the space

and stopped minting, and that
is a letdown, yes, um, but I'm

never gonna like fault them for
it, but that you know.

I'll never care if their value
goes to zero, but it hurts me

when I see them quit.

Speaker 2: That's a great point
and I'm sure, as someone who's

been an artist for as long as
you have and gone through many

different stages of your career,
you probably hit some

interesting roadblocks around,
maybe not feeling inspired or

wanting to create less, or
wanting to pack it up.

I mean, while we're on this
beat, I'd love to maybe unpack

that a little bit more.

Is that, like you know, maybe
what is one of the most

memorable?

Maybe not in the best way, but
like what is one of the more

memorable, like roadblocks that
you came up against, and we'd

love to maybe unpack a little
bit like what you learned from

that, like how you maybe move
past that oh, that's a good

question.

Speaker 1: I'm trying to think.

I mean, I hit creative
roadblocks from time to time.

We experience burnout a lot.

Sometimes you work on something
like I just don't like this.

Um, one way I get around
creative blocks is I I try to go

learn new things.

I go watch tutorials.

I go watch you know, like I was
feeling it in the past couple

weeks where I'm like I'm not
feeling very inspired.

I'm gonna go watch some cinema
4d tutorials and learn how to do

redshift rendering and that put
me into a new canvas that I

could start from.

That I felt like I could just
kind of play around with again

and that inspired an upcoming
piece, and so that's one way I

get around.

It is just kind of building
more knowledge.

And then I'm trying to think of
like a specific thing in the

past.

But there's certainly I don't
know there's certainly times

where you make stuff that just
never come out for various

reasons, usually bureaucratic
reasons, um, and that that's

always kind of I wouldn't.

I mean, that's a, that's not a
creative roadblock, that's a,

that's a, a corporate roadblock.

Usually, yeah, and there's not
much you can do to get around it

other than maybe repurpose that
idea in a different way

somewhere else.

But, um, yeah, I don't know,
I'm trying to.

I don't want to like throw any
projects under the bus, but

there's certainly um lessons to
be learned from everything you

do in this space, every single
drop.

I kind of do a post mortem
afterwards and go okay, well,

what worked about that?

What didn't work?

What can I do to improve it?

Did this mechanic feel fair?

Did it feel extractive?

Is everybody happy?

Is this something I should try
again?

I think it's important to kind
of review and learn from the

pros and cons of every drop in
this space, and sometimes it's

choices that I make in terms of
pricing or supply or whatever,

and then sometimes it's out of
my control, stuff like contracts

not working right or you know,
doing.

We're in this mode right now of
doing a lot of stuff on l2s and

chains and all that stuff, and
I've done a lot of that

experimenting over the past and
some of them, like I did a drop

on flow at one point and that
was an addition of 10, but, like

I, no one has it listed, no one
could find it.

You know there's no marketplace
for flow in fds, you know, and

so it's like that's the kind of
the challenge of like you take

these bets on like.

Oh you know, flow has disney
and mba and all this stuff.

It's going to be.

It's going to be a legitimate
chain, and then it just is not

an art chain, right, you know?

And I found the same thing
happened with like immutable x.

I did collective uh, which I
thought was a fantastic drop,

you know, x copy a lot of joy,
we were all a part of it, um,

and thankfully you could bridge
that stuff over to open c, but I

don't see anybody doing
anything on immutable x right

now, and so it's.

You know, those are the kind of
the risks that I've been less

likely to take, to my own dismay
, probably because you know I

was a little hesitant on
ordinals, and now that's in and

I'm like something I was working
on last summer and I kind of

put it off, and now it's going
to come out in the next like

month or two, but it's like I
dragged my feet on it for six

months because I was like I
don't know if the general

community has wallets and is
willing to jump into this thing

quite yet, but the people that
did are rewarded, and so I think

it's always a mixed bag of
whether you take those leaps or

not.

And sometimes they work out and
you're early to something like

art blocks.

And sometimes they don't work
out and you're the first PFP on

Polygon and nobody cares.

Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I like
the way you answer that, because

you kind of dove into how you
view risk or how you deal with

risk management as an artist,
because the reality is that

risking on Ethereum, we took a
risk minting on Ethereum a while

back.

It started out as an ICO, it
was not an established chain,

but over time it obviously
gained its credibility for

reasons that it's the chain that
we mostly transact on as far as

art goes today.

This is a time stamp that could
change this year Until it's

deemed a security in a week.

Yeah, the this year, but um
until until it's it's deemed a

security in a week.

Yeah, um, the uh.

Yeah the memes on that, have
been rich um, they've been rich,

uh, but you know that, you,
because this space is literally

predicated on being early, but I
, even for myself, I there's a

lot of ptsd that prevented me
from getting into meme coins

this this time around, because I
got burned.

I think it burned, but like I
just never made any money and if

at best I broke, even during
meme coin season on eth, because

I was spending 75 a transaction
you know, and I wasn't.

Are you talking about last
summer?

or like 2019, okay yeah, because
this was my first full cycle

that I completed.

I came in pre-Mania of 2021.

Like, I came in right around
literally March, like right

around March of Okay.

So it was like when things were
starting to get frothy, like

they are now, but it wasn't.

We weren't like so fucking back
yet, but like we were kind of

on our way and I just didn't
know anything.

I had no conception of what
this was, what I just stumbled

into, what we were in for, um, I
had no clue, you know, uh, but

I knew that I wanted to spend my
time here.

That's all I did know.

Um, and so now, completing my
first cycle, yeah, I had I tried

to make a little bit extra cash
in the bear market.

Didn't work out, so it's like,
but things were not frothy, like

you had to really study the
charts and you had to really

like.

There's a lot of people that
are just savage at meme coin

trading and they're so good at
it, um, and they just understand

.

Yeah, understand that shit to a
t, not not a person, I can't

compete with the snipers.

And no, no, there's so many
people that are so good at it,

so I but I also sideline myself
for everything that happened

basically, or that has happened
so far.

And so it's interesting because
, like you have to, like, what

I've learned, at least for me
personally, is that you kind of

have to have, like the, the mind
of a goldfish, where it's like,

okay, that shit sucked, but it
doesn't mean that the next thing

isn't going to be somewhat
fruitful.

It doesn't mean I should hold
back.

It doesn't mean I should still
experiment.

You know what I mean, because
it's so easy just to get in the

middle curve and sideline
everything, and it's frustrating

.

Speaker 1: No, it's definitely.

I mean, at this moment I think
I only have a little bit of

money in with the NFA.

But when I say a little bit, of
money and with the NFA, you know

but, um, when I say a little
bit of money, I mean like one

Solana, um, but like, I've
played, I've dabbled in it

because it's fun to participate
with other people in these

things.

But uh, I'm, I'm of the mindset
of like I don't want to fall

asleep with a bunch of stuff
that could collapse while I'm

sleeping, and so I did okay in
the meme mania of last summer

and this time around I didn't
get into the pre-sales and stuff

like that.

But it's certainly something
that I'm always learning from,

because it's, in the end,
whether these things work or not

.

Again, it goes back to
marketing and you can learn from

how these people are marketing
and what is attracting people.

And sometimes it's as stupid as
saying, like here's my address,

send it here.

But sometimes it's.

You know you look at like
shroomies, they're putting a ton

of money into trailers and
marketing and spaces and like

that rollout, and you know we
can all learn from that, that

method and how, what works and
what doesn't work, and so, um,

yeah, I don't know, I don't know
how.

I imagine it'll be a part of
the space for this full cycle,

as it kind of was before.

There was always these kind of
meme, meme coins.

Doge was in the the last pump
um, but it'll be, you know.

The question now is which chain
will it be on, whether it's

base or avalanche or polygon or
anything.

You know, solana, you know,
like blast, yeah, I could it's

probably going to be on all of
them and they'll probably be

like five top coins on all of
them then ride um.

But in the end, I think it's
really.

I was talking to an artist today
who um went through his up and

down of of the last week, uh,
and didn't sell the top and is

kicking themselves and that's
totally understandable and I

think most people do.

I think it's important for
people to understand that people

share their wins but they don't
share their losses and the

timeline is a false sense of
everybody winning when really

most people are losing.

But yeah, I think it's.

Oh, I go, I go back and forth
on it, but I think it's.

It's going to be a way for
people to make money and it I'd

rather they make their gambling
money that way than putting it

on the shoulders of artists.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I, I mean
, I, I just feel and I think it.

I think, though, there's a
certain price point where it's

with art, where it's impossible
to look at art only as enjoyment

and not an investment.

You know, like, like, say, if
it's, like you know, fifty to a

hundred thousand dollars, you
know, for one piece of art, it's

like there's no way to possibly
not consider that as a as, as

you know, as an, as some sort of
an investment.

But yeah, I, I will, and I'm
nowhere I say that with a caveat

like I'm nowhere near that yet.

So I just, I say this with a
just some context of like.

I've not like, any time I've had
the inkling of buying art,

purely where, where the
financial aspect is it

overweighs my interest in what
I'm buying.

It just doesn't feel good Like
it just doesn't like it doesn't.

It doesn't feel good for me to
to do that because, number one,

I've done it and it doesn't feel
good doing it, um, but it, it

just, I'm buying it, it just
just, I don't know, it's just

not enjoy, it's not an enjoyable
way to go about it.

So I think you're absolutely
right.

Speaker 1: It's not really fair
to put it on individual artists

for doing that um, and I mean as
a collector and I collect a lot

um, but I would never be
interested in buying a fifty

thousand dollar nft and, and the
reason is I would get so much

less enjoyment from that than I
would from buying a $500 piece

from a small artist and sharing
them and uplifting them and

seeing them grow and then
hopefully they go and sell for

$50,000 to other people.

But where I get my enjoyment
out of the collecting is not the

flex of having millions of
dollars worth of art, it's the

ability to be a part of all
these artist journeys, and so I

think that's just what makes me
tick in that way.

Um, but I appreciate all the
whales that are making, you know

, continuing to collect these
huge collections that are going

to go into museums and all sorts
of stuff.

That's a huge part of it.

But, um, I don't want to be, um
, I don't want to have the

responsibility of having a
museum in my wallet.

Speaker 2: You don't want to be
six by two, it's too much risk.

Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, no, it's a
fair point I think you touched

on.

I think a lot of people don't
think about why they collect and

like.

I think so it's cool to hear
your perspective on, like, what

it is that makes you happy and
what it is that yeah, what it is

that literally makes you happy
and why you collect art.

Because I think, for me, I went
into it just willy-nilly.

In the beginning, I just didn't
know the fuck I was doing.

I had no plan, I had no.

It was just like I like it, I
buy it cool.

I like the person, I like it
cool.

Um, but I think over time, it's
just things you start to think

about, like, okay, what is it
without any plan?

Where did my like, what did I
do the most of and why did I do

that and what made me the
happiest through all of these

just random, not random, but you
know all of these transactions

that I made over the past two
years um, and it's I.

I get conflicted because
there's there's part of me that

like, really, you know, maybe
one to two pieces, it would be

really cool to have like a fifty
to a hundred thousand dollar

piece.

Um, and I think where I find
the most enjoyment, where and I

know this because I've it's been
the most frustrating because I

just don't have the capital to
do it consistently is that I

feel like artists within the
between the 1 to 10 eath range,

and that's pretty big.

It's a pretty big spectrum, but
that's kind of what I consider.

Like 90 plus is kind of like
this, like breakout point.

You know where it's like okay,
you can consistently sell above

90 and you can consistently sell
below one, but like that middle

ground is that kind of like the
trenches, in my opinion, of

like, okay, how do you
consistently sell, because from

an investment standpoint it
looks terrible.

You know, it's a long term
thing.

A, it's a long-term, it's a
long-term thing, but it's also

where I view a lot of artists
need the most help.

Um, as far as like
understanding how to maybe

cultivate that a little bit more
and correct me if I'm wrong but

like that's like the way, I
think I fall into that range, my

one of ones selling that kind
of five to ten-eath range, um.

Speaker 1: And so, you know,
depending on the market, you

know.

You know, usually when it sells
higher it's because it's a

secondary sale, but primary wise
, that's usually where I fall

and I think that's a fine amount
.

You know, sometimes it's easy
in this space as an artist to

look at others and go.

You know they're achieving this
.

Why should I be there?

What?

You know what?

How do I grow to make my
collectors happy and all that

stuff, um.

But in the end the market finds
the price it wants to find and

you know it's.

Instead of comparing myself to
the, the top artists that are

selling for millions of dollars,
I compare myself to where I was

five years ago, where I was
selling my, my one-of-one works

for like $300 to $400.

And it's like if I'm selling
stuff for $8,000 to $10,000,

that's a huge increase ramp over
time.

And so sometimes you just have
to have that kind of perspective

.

But it is very easy as an
artist in the space to compare

and get down on yourself about
why are those people in the book

and not me?

Kind of ideas, yeah.

Speaker 2: And to document it.

I bought the book.

I thought it was a cool book.

It was a cool book and it's
massive.

I think that's what people
don't really realize is how

actually it's like a two foot to
three foot tall book.

The thing is huge.

Speaker 1: That's why I made my
two inch books books.

You can see them in the
background here I love that man.

Speaker 2: Um, I love that and
and that's something I've really

admired about you man is that,
like you find I I it's something

I struggle with is finding some
cheeky way to like, do a little

, make make fun of the absurdity
of what's happening on the

timeline, and I've always heard
that in your tweets like I'm

just like man, like he just
doesn't miss um, and or maybe

you do, and I don't see those,
like I don't anything that I've

seen those get deleted.

Speaker 1: No, um, no, uh, no,
I've always found it's easy,

like, because in the end you,
I'm a people pleaser, I don't

want to offend anybody, but I do
have opinions and sometimes

things in the space annoy me and
I want to vent about things.

When you make it about yourself
as a joke, it still passes the

idea you're trying to present,
but it doesn't attack somebody

directly and that's a much
easier way that doesn't hurt

people's feelings.

Because in the end, if, like,
if you go, oh, I hate this meme

coin, you're gonna offend a
thousand bag holders of that

meme coin.

But if you make a tweet that
says, oh my gosh, I'm releasing

this jokey meme coin, you can
say your opinion in a way that

doesn't hurt anybody's value but
it still gets a message across.

And so you know, I think I have
a.

You know, my history and career
has had all sorts of comedy

aspects to it, and so it's fun
to get that kind of.

You know, my Twitter is
essentially a monologue joke

where I get fire off a few jokes
that comment on the daily news.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's impressive
and it's funny.

I think you touched on that.

Like I've seen, whether it's
artists or collectors like, just

be just too kind of like in
their emotional bag and it's

like this could have been a text
message kind of thing.

You know, like this is this,
probably should have been a text

to your friend to like, say,
like should I, you know, should

I tweet this?

Or like I just need to talk
about this, this um, and I and

I'm guilty of that too right, I
think we all are.

It's impossible not to.

We're all human and we all.

The space is, I think, the
absurd of every part of the

human um, of the human race,
like everything here is the

absurd version of anything
that's not here, um, whether

it's emotional intelligence,
whether it's, you know, people

who have copious amounts of
money but no social skills.

It's like the extreme ends of
that um extreme, you know, like

you know, I'm trying, I'm trying
to say it without saying the

words, you know, but uh, you,
then you have extreme sales,

extreme dips, extreme everything
, and it's impossible to like,

not like, lose your mind at
least a little bit here, and and

and want to, you know, uh, I
guess, get angry um, and and

think that shit is just so out
of whack here at times, um, well

, yeah, some of it's a natural
reaction, and you talked about

your father.

Speaker 1: I I took
self-deprecating humor from my

dad that's definitely him and I
will say it's something I do a

lot and it's something I'm
trying to do less of, because

often, um, someone will pay me a
compliment and I'll dismiss it

in a way.

That's like, oh no, you know,
and like be self-deprecating in

a way, and that that's something
I need to get better at not

doing.

Um, it's a, it's like a defense
mechanism because I'm, you know

, self-esteem and all sorts of
other things going on, but I

shouldn't dismiss, I should
accept the compliment and

validate it.

That's something I've been
trying to get better at at these

conventions is when someone
says, hey, nice work, I go oh,

thank you, I appreciate it, I'm
happy about it too, as opposed

to being like no, whatever, it's
stupid.

So that's my own journey of
getting better at accepting

compliments, what's weird.

Speaker 2: It's weird because
compliments and insults go down

the same drain, you know, and
I'm not sure if it's like yeah,

I think you touched it's hard.

It's really.

It's like, yeah, I think you
touched it's hard.

It's really hard to be like, oh
, thanks.

Like I really appreciate that.

Yeah, yeah, it's hard not to Do
you find that, like, you know,

like, just for me, I always view
it as like, oh, if I accept

this compliment, my head's going
to get too big, and like I have

a fear of my head getting too
big, you know, or like, let is

that, is that yeah yeah no, I
don't think it's that.

Speaker 1: Sometimes I worry
that if I'm, you know, I look at

the biggest artists in the
space and they're all very

confident.

That's something I don't.

I I just never got that bone in
me of being like super

confident about what I'm doing.

I'm always going to be an
insecure artist that goes is

this good enough, is this
working, is this right?

But it is something collectors
are attracted to confident

artists to get better at,
because it's not good to make

people, you know, be dismissive
or be unsure, because that will

make the collectors go.

Should I be collecting this
guy's art?

Does he know what he's doing?

Kind of thing.

And it's really.

You know, I am confident in my
art but I'm not confident in

publicly telling people I'm
proud of my art or something

like that.

You know, because sometimes I
worry that I look at some of the

artists in the space that are
so confident and so like look at

the sale I made, oh my God,
this is the best piece I've ever

made and it's a turnoff for me
where.

But that's me being in my own
head about being jealous of

their confidence.

You know what I mean, and so I
think that's where I put that on

myself of if I do that, people
might not like me because I'm so

confident, or something like
that.

I don't know, I'm really going
down a weird rabbit hole.

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, no, and I
mean I opened the door, so it's

my fault for doing that, but I
like it.

No, no.

I like it, it's so like, but
also to kind of flip this around

to the earlier part we were
just chatting about, around you

compare it like when it comes to
sales, like what you mentioned

is like you're easy, like you
were able to compare your sales

to like what you were making you
know X amount of years ago for

like 400 bucks, you know, and
you're like now you're selling

work for like six to $10,000, um
, you know, and so would that

not be the set, like I guess I
would turn that question, or

turn that into a question of
like you know, when you were

especially in the earlier stages
of your career.

Are you more confident and
bullish in your work today, even

though you still recognize that
you have a long way to go?

Are you still guys?

Speaker 1: oh for sure yeah, no,
I think I'm, I'm proud of what

I do, um, and I think I'm
improving.

Uh, when I look back at you
know I'm putting out of this on

cyber gallery, uh, that I'll be
doing a tour with on friday, I

don't know when.

It'll probably be out when this
airs and you can go find it.

But it takes in four years of
my work and it's interesting

putting new pieces up next
against old pieces and you go.

Well, here's the connection
between them.

But then I look at the old
piece.

I'm like, oh, I could have.

You know, I'm technically
better and I'm also conceptually

and creatively stronger now.

But yeah, I don't, I don't know
.

Part of me doesn't ever wanna
be content, because I worry that

would make me stagnant, and so
part of me wonders if being hard

on myself is a strength versus
a weakness.

But I think it's all it's.

Finding a balance of both, I
think, is probably the key.

Speaker 2: I think we search for
this like mode where we have it

all figured out.

We're like, we understand, you
know, the right confidence level

, you know every single time, or
we understand whether it's a

strain.

And I, at least for me I'm only
gonna speak for myself, as I

always like search for this
utopia of like this.

This time I'll have it all
figured out, you know, and it's

like this carrot that I'm never
able to catch, but I always, I

always dangle it in front of
myself, you know, and it's it's

completely self-sabotaging at
times, um, to do that, cause

there's this, it's, it's, it's
setting, it's, it's setting up

the incorrect expectation.

And I, I think you, we search
for this, like this or that, and

there's never it's, but life is
never this or that.

It's always a, it's always a
healthy mix of both, like I

chatted with chris f uh, from
from flamingo down.

It's like, you know, a
beautiful life is a life full of

contradictions, you know, it's
like we always, we're just like

it's a it's, it's wonderful and
maybe yeah, I think it was close

to that.

You'll correct me if I'm wrong,
but, um, we always there's.

You say one thing and then
you'll completely learn and grow

from that and do something
completely different later that

maybe have contradicted your
initial statement, um you know,

but yeah it, I I sure I sure
without myself too you know like

whether, whether being hard on
myself and I can find, you know

like whether being hard on
myself and I can find some very

clear examples of being hard on
myself not being an asset and it

being a detriment, you know,
and it being a liability, but

there's also times where if I
didn't have that, I wouldn't

have pushed through.

Some of those times, you know
like it's weird.

I don't know if I quite have
the answer.

Yeah, no.

Speaker 1: I don't, yeah, no, I
don't, yeah, no, I agree, I

think it goes.

Now I'm lost in thought.

Yeah, I think it's a strength.

We'll see how it goes.

But I think over time, you know
, what I've found is the space

has validated me to the point
where I feel like I don't need

to prove myself as much.

I mean, I still I stopped to
prove myself every drop.

I have to prove myself
artistically, but enough people

in the space I like can vouch
for me that I don't have to like

scream as loud as I once did,
which is nice yeah, that's I.

Speaker 2: I see a lot of people
in that screaming part of the

journey and I feel like we all
go through it.

You just gotta yell long enough
and hard enough and keep

yelling consistently until you
don't have to yell as much, but

I think we're always gonna be
yelling.

We're re-yelling something.

That's what they're there for.

Speaker 1: Yeah well, I think
that's, I mean, part of being an

artist.

I mean, even before NFTs.

If you're an artist, you're
hustling, you're trying to sell

your art, and you know that goes
back to me being in college

selling acrylic paintings in the
park on the sidewalk, just like

does anybody want to buy this
for 50 bucks, kind of thing,

even, um, and that, that
mentality of you just trying to

get your art out into other
people's hands, um, is something

that never goes away, and so
you always have to be a little

extroverted, um, in order to
sell your art.

You can't be truly an introvert
unless you have a gallery that

does everything for you.

But at times I think I'm an
introvert and at times I think

I'm an extrovert.

I don't know which one I am.

I think it depends.

I think when I'm at home, I
prefer being at home, but if I'm

at a convention, I can be an
extrovert.

But it does take a toll on me.

Usually, by the end of those
weeks I get pretty depressed.

I'm like so emotionally worn
out um that I have like it takes

me a few days to get like back
in the groove creatively do you

typically like clear your
calendar for, like at least two

to three days after those events
like to?

um, I don't.

I mean it usually just falls on
a weekend or something anyways,

but sometimes I jump right into
other stuff but I find, whether

I try to or not, I struggle to
like get back into that

headspace Because it's not, it's
not a.

The depression comes from so
many people at these conventions

and again, this is gonna.

This is my fear is me saying
something that makes me sound

pompous or something.

But hundreds of people come up
to you and say, oh, I love your

work, you're great, and you go,
oh my gosh, and you internalize

that and, and then that stops
and you have to like readjust,

to like, oh, I'm not going to
get praise also, which is, again

, it's a very silly thing, but
it does.

It's a weird thing on your
psyche where you know it's not

like I need someone to tell me
I'm doing great, but like going

through that emotional journey
over and over of people and you

having to respond and
acknowledge them and have a

moment with them becomes
draining on a certain mind level

.

But it's not something I regret
at all.

I really enjoy it, but I always
find that it burns me out

really bad.

Speaker 2: Yeah, regret it all.

I really enjoy it, but I always
find that burns me out really

bad.

Yeah, I've had as someone you
know.

The one challenge I'd say for
me with those is that with

podcasting I don't really get a
lot of feedback.

You know, on on the timeline of
like is this good, what, what?

What adjustments do I make?

I see very little metrics.

There's not really much.

That's that's documented.

Um, and this was this.

Nft nyc was like the first NFT
NYC and also Art Basel was one

of the first years where I had
gotten validated before and some

of my close friends would
always tell me the truth.

But kind of getting that, what
you're talking about, that

external, it's definitely what I
crave.

I'm not.

It feels really good and so I
think this is the first time of

getting that for the very first
time, and it was.

But then it was towards the end
like wow, like I got to go back

to like reality in this, you
know, like I love my apartment,

but like in this little cocoon
where I'm shielded from all of

that and I'm just another dude
on the internet again.

Yeah, I personally get sick,
usually every time, whether it's

COVID, whether it's a cold,
whether it's just talk, cause

like I can't stop talking to
people, cause then you're like

similar to you.

You know, I think it has to do
with the environment that I'm in

.

If I'm around like-minded
people that I I just genuinely

want to be there very much like
you, where it's like I can't

stop talking.

But then there's moments where
it's like maybe I'm kind of in a

crowd where I don't have a
genuine interest in being there.

I'm not really going to talk as
much, I'm not going to find it

as interesting, I'm not going to
engage for the sake of engaging

.

Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't
know whether that's introverted

or extroverted, it just yeah,
it's a false reality, because I

reality, because I mean you go
to those, we go to those

conventions, we'll go to nft,
myc in two weeks and everybody

there is on the same page.

We accept this technology, um,
and then the next week you go

back and there's a level of
shame, um, which is I don't

think it's justified, but it's
put on us, uh, by the media, by

anybody that says nfts are a
scam.

You know, crypto's terrible,
all this stuff I find that I

have.

You know, I'm more closed off
in terms of telling people what

I do because I don't want to get
into an argument about it.

And so, you know, we kind of go
into these false sense of

security when we're in these
conventions where it's like

everybody's kind of we're all of
the same wavelength, which is

so wonderful, and then you have
to kind of come back and and

deal with the real world, which
is much more apprehensive or

dismissive.

Speaker 2: You know, I didn't
even think about that, um, yeah,

you're absolutely right,
because, like these, these

events are euphoric because you
don't have to deal with any of

that doubt, like everyone's
euphoric even during the bear

market.

New York was a vibe, marfa was
a vibe, miami was a vibe.

That was a lot of fun to go do
those things.

Because you don't yeah, I
didn't even think about that.

There's very few people in my
social circle that I can just

talk about this without getting
head scratches or judgments or

like still fucking crazy.

Or you know like, oh, it went
down 30, how you doing man.

You know like, um, yeah, you
know it's, it's, it's weird, so,

uh, I don't think it's
justified at all, but I, I guess

that's.

I mean, dare I say it, I guess
this is part of being early.

So, like it's just oh, yeah,
yeah, yeah and it's something

that's just not for everybody.

Speaker 1: I think so, like it's
just yeah, and it's something

that's just not for everybody.

I think, you know, it's a niche
thing.

I think it's a false belief
that, at some point, 100% of the

world's going to be owning NFTs
, but it doesn't need to be.

I mean, it's in the same reason
that you know, most people

don't own fine art on their
walls.

We're targeting a different
demographic of people that are

more tech savvy and have
disposable income and are

interested in collecting in
these groups of people and all

these other things, and that's
never going to be the majority.

And if it does become the
majority, it might lose some of

its coolness.

And so I think it's, I'm okay
with it being kind of a fun, a

fun corner of culture.

Speaker 2: I tend there's days,
there are days when I don't

agree with that, but I think at
my core I do and I really enjoy

that.

You know, because that's part
of what attracted me to this

space is it feels counterculture
, it feels unique, it feels like

anything's possible and we've
matured over the past, just for

the period that I've been in it
a couple years but it still has

that specialness to it and
there's part of me that just

never wants it to change.

But I also can't deny that in
order for us to grow and evolve

and continue to having fun,
there are parts of it that do

need to evolve.

Speaker 1: You know, like oh, I
agree, and I think crypto will

like I'm talking about NFT
specific I think there will be a

point in my mind where a third
of the world has a form of

crypto of some sort.

You know, maybe 20, 30 years
from now or something form of

crypto of some sort.

You know, maybe 20, 30 years
from now, or something, um, that

, or even these government coins
or whatever.

That could make it happen even
sooner, but um, so like, but of

that it'll always be this like
kind of tiny corner.

And you know, the same thing
with the art side of the nft is

like I, I look at the the amount
of people that collect pokemon

cards, to the amount of people
that collect Pokemon cards, to

the amount of people that
collect fine art from Sotheby's,

and it's a very small piece of
the pie comparatively, and I

think our space will mimic that
in a big way, where there will

be gaming assets and sports and
trading cards and all that stuff

will be the big things that
people collect, and then a

portion of that will be fine art
and digital art.

But if, if, the greater whole
grows, then that portion of the

fine art grows as well, and I,
you know, I think we had a false

sense in 2021 of art being the
driving force of nfts and I

think we'll see it kind of
replicate and mimic the

traditional in real life world
of collectibles and art as well,

do you think we'll have another
2021?

In terms of, just in general,
euphoria.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Like we're kind
of like where you know, maybe

there's for the most part that's
true where, like it's art was

like the big driver of 2021.

Do you think we'll see that in
2024?

Or do you see that this is
getting a little bit more mature

, that most people maybe learn
their lesson a little bit with

just the willy-nilly of minting
everything for absurd prices?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I, guess, I
don't know, I don't know.

I don't think we'll see art
take the dominant chunk of the

attention like it did.

I think it'll always be um,
kind of the flex that people

take when they, you know, make
profits and meme coins or pfps

or these other things that are
much more liquid.

Art is very illiquid and so
that's kind of like Batsupium's

chart where it ends there.

But I do think over time people
will see that art prices mature

better than PFPs or meme coins,
and so I think they will become

a place where people kind of
put their winnings into.

But yeah, I don't know.

I mean the question is, will
there be another nifty gateway?

Because that was really that
was the driving force.

But the reason it was so
popular was because people could

instantly flip the work for
profit, and so that was not a

sustainable pump.

But you know, we saw a similar
thing with open editions, where

people got the open editions,
then immediately were able to

flip them for more.

There will always be these
projects, art projects, whether

it's brain drops or art blocks
or whatever that have their

moments the space, are like a
swarm of locusts and they go

from ecosystem and projects, uh,
until they kind of eat all the

crops from that meta and move on
to the next thing.

And so last week they were
solana meme coins.

Next week it'll be base meme
coins.

Uh, maybe it'll be base open
editions, we'll see, you know

there, but they'll keep moving
to whatever is the easiest way

to turn $1 into $2.

If art can be that, then sure,
but I don't think it'll be

widespread like it was on Nifty
Gateway, where every day there

were seven artists that were
having that happen, because in

the same way of like Artblocks,
where it wasn't about the

projects, it was just because
this is an art blocks project.

Yeah, um, yeah, and so I, you
know that's the question is,

will there be some sort of new
platform ecosystem that becomes

that thing then?

Yeah, and then maybe that will
be this little thing.

But yeah, I just don't see it
hitting the same hype as it did

then, because I think the reason
Nifty did so well is because it

had fiat onboarding.

People could use their credit
cards to buy it and earn points

and then sell it to get crypto,
and all sorts of weird loopholes

and stuff like that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, you bring
up a great point.

You answered that.

Yeah, I definitely learned
something there, because I art

is it's, it's real easy.

I think 2021 really fucked with
our like perception of of a lot

of things and, um, like most, I
think most people before 2021,

uh, or before 2021, everyone was
real clear that, like you know,

art is a flex and art is a
luxury.

You know, um that that people
spend their, their money on.

You know, um, and that kind of
like, for that moment in time,

it was not a luxury, it was just
like it was a right.

You know, like it was like a,
it was it kind of defied physics

in that in that sense, where,
um, it kind of defied physics in

that sense where it was very
different.

Speaker 1: So I think, well,
yeah, the first three quarters

of 2020, editions were frowned
on and they were highly

discouraged.

It was very much.

Art should be rare.

It should be one of ones only,
and that was super rare.

Maker's Place, known Origins,
started to dabble in additions.

It wasn't until rare bull came
around with a rary token, in

kind of the fall of 2020, that
there was a token associated

that incentivized you to mint,
sell and collect on rare bull,

which then started this like
digital.

You know, artists started doing
it and you know me and alotta

and sarah zucker and x copy were
making these little rareable

men so like 10 editions and it's
fun.

And then the d gens caught wind
of it and they're like, oh,

we're gonna make these hundred
edition collectible projects and

then we're gonna do the
thousand edition.

You know the game, that rary
token, to the point where it no

longer mattered um, and then
that moved over to top shot,

which became the next thing that
you could play that game on,

and then it became nifty gateway
and then became board apes.

And you know, yeah, it's just
the same thing over and over and

over, and so I think I don't
see that this idea of metas

isn't going to go away and we're
we're seeing a repetition of

metas and with slight variants,
sometimes not even variating at

all.

But yeah, um, but uh, yeah, I,
I look at that and I go okay,

well, that was the moment where,
like again, like I, I did the

the art blocks.

One was 400 additions.

There was people, you know, in
the discord.

People were like you got to
make more additions because

there's demand or whatever, uh,
but then there was people that

reached out and they're like 400
additions, this is a cash grab.

And this was at 200, you know,
0.2 mint or whatever, and you

know, cut to eight months later
artists were making like seven

million dollars on a drop, you
know, but like it takes seeing

that shift of acceptance of
supply go up.

And Nifty Gateway, really, their
open editions.

You know I look at this week as
open edition season 3.0.

Yeah, because there was the
Nifty one in 2021 and then there

was the one a year ago and now
I'm seeing this is now the l2

open edition season that I think
we'll see for the next few

weeks.

Um, we'll see how it plays out,
but you know, I think, uh, you

know, x copy max pain, you
mentioned it, that was an open

edition from 2021.

That was, you know, arguably
one of the biggest of that meta

and now you're seeing it's
having to be burned and do all

this other stuff with.

But yeah, I don't know, it's
interesting to see it all kind

of go in circles, just like meme
coins.

This is like meme coin 3.0 in
terms of my four years here, as

Dee says, study the hot ball of
money.

Speaker 2: Study hot balls of
money.

And where does it go next?

Yeah, I feel like I'm Dee knows
what he's doing.

He really does.

Yeah, I love the way he plays
the game and I love his

transparency around it because
it's funny to watch him do it.

Yeah, it's ridiculous At times,
but so that makes me want to,

you know, go into.

I'm not sure, like obviously
I'm sure you've seen him, but

like I wonder how far deep down
the rabbit hole you've gone on

Terraforms and kind of what that
project makes you think of

Interesting.

Yeah, and I maybe hear from,
like an artist, like how you

view, like how you view that, um
, in comparison to like maybe

what's, what else is out there?

Speaker 1: uh well, I minted a
few.

That was the first time I ever
minted from a contract, so that

project taught me a lot.

And then I remember um 113 sent
me a PDF explaining it and I

was like this is the most
confusing, convoluted project

I've ever seen.

I found it fascinating and
there's so many fun surprises to

it.

I think that's the thing that
that project does really well is

that it kind of it gave you the
blueprints to do whatever you

want with it.

Like you could draw art on it,
you could turn it into a 3D

landform, you could build it
into like a Minecraft world.

You can do all this stuff, but
at its core it's just a bunch of

math of like here's some colors
and layers and stuff, and this

is all connected and does this
cool stuff.

What's been interesting is to
see the community that built

around it and how they've really
explored it and added to the

lore.

And now they're doing this
whole 2.0 thing that I totally

missed the window on by like an
hour because I was distracted or

something, but no, I think it's
a really cool project and I

think what it does there's
certain projects that I find

educate people on the technology
in a way that is additive to

the space Like.

I think Matt Cain's Gazer is a
good example of like showing how

time-based a generative art
could work.

Example of like showing how
time-based a generative art

could work.

Um, I think Tyler Hobbs did a
great job of showing how

long-form generative artworks
with fidenzas and kind of showed

his process and stuff like that
, and that made people

understand, um, generative art
more.

That was one of the challenges
when I did art blocks was that

most people didn't understand
what generative art meant and

they thought my stuff was just
like stuff I made in photoshop

and I had to like keep hammering
that.

It was done with javascript and
it was live and on chain and

you could do it interactive and
animated and all this stuff.

Um, they move.

You know there's there's a
level of education, yeah, um,

and so I think MathCastles has
so much to learn that it's

almost unlearnable for me.

I've struggled to fully
understand it for years because

it's so dense and I think it
just shows how well they built

it, because it can be evolved,
and so I think it's cool.

I still have one.

I meant to three.

I still have one.

I don't think I'll get rid of
it.

It's treasure, treasure trade.

Speaker 2: For sure.

Yeah, I mean yeah, and I'm like
I love hearing your perspective

on it.

I think the thing that you
touched on it which is what

resonated with me the most, is
kind of the community aspect

that's in the excitement and the
lore that's built around it,

around kind of showcasing what
can be done.

You know, and like an early
like you know, computers as a

medium and networks as a medium,
you know, was like way fucking

abstracted you know from like
way way too abstract for me to

even like try to comprehend, you
know, or try to consider or try

to think through.

But like I think that's what
it's done for me and I think

that's what it's done.

It's kind of helped see what
could be possible if we continue

down this path, or just kind of
think about what that could

mean if a few other artists did
something similar to this or how

they could evolve it.

And I think for me, as someone
who talks a lot, I almost look

at his spaces and some of the
dialogue that he shares, as I

think that's a big the studio's
dialogue and the and what

dialogue other people share
around it is what.

That's what's special to me and
that's really where I've

learned the most and it's
allowed me to, you know, see it

in a in a different way, without
trying to, without

understanding, um, you know,
down to the code of like what,

what, what all went into it, um,
so I don't know it, it it was,

was it's.

It's super interesting to me
and I I just I look at he always

talks about, like, art history
being open, you know, and that's

kind of what you know.

That's like the point I'm
getting to here.

Speaker 1: You know, uh, years,
well it yeah, it falls into a

category of art that I I think
is the most important part of

this space, which is art that
could not be done otherwise.

You know, without digital,
without blockchain, without code

, without all this stuff,
there's a this is not a dig at

any of the other artists out
there.

There's a lot of art that could
be sold as prints, that could

be sold as photos or whatever,
and that was, there was already

a medium for monetizing that
kind of art prior to nfts.

When I look at nfts, I go
animation, code, interactivity,

virtual reality, like what are
the things that we can showcase

as being the next wave of art,
and there's nothing wrong with

bringing the previous wave into
this space.

But when I look at what I think
is the most important art that

will be looked at over time,
it's the stuff that is showing

what is possible and allowing.

You know, allowing.

It goes back to what we're
talking about, with artists

sharing the process and story so
that the collectors can tell

people about it.

The thing that's fun about
terraforms is you show to

somebody to go, look at this and
then you go well, actually it

does this and look at this and
look at this and you're giving

them this ammo for sharing your
art even further and bringing

other people into it and
explaining why it's important.

And I think I think that's why
it's such a successful project

is because people like to share
it and tell people why it's

interesting.

Speaker 2: Totally dude and I'm
really glad you said that,

because I around a lot of like
what is really important,

because, like I view you know if
I've learned anything and I

still claimed, and like I still
have so much to learn but, like

one thing that I've learned from
just doing, uh, doing these

interviews and also just
studying art history, uh, and

and, and some of the free time
that I do have is that, like you

know, great art helps people
see the world in a new way, you

know, and like that's really
like I really latched on and

that made sense to me.

I was like cause I've always, I
would always wonder like why,

why is something celebrated and
something not?

Like you know, there's all
these.

It's a very nebulous kind of uh
, you know, uh, industry and

it's like what truly is
celebrated and why, um, I was

always looking for that and I
think that's really what.

Yeah, like what you literally
just said, it's not a, it is a,

it's not a translation of a
medium that we've had for

hundreds or thousands of years.

Um, it's, it's a new thing.

It's like, literally, it's,
it's completely new and it's a

completely new way to look at
the world, and I think that, as

we go into more of a digital
space, as we're not becoming

less digital as as a society,
we're going further and further

and it's getting exponentially
faster at the pace of which

we're headed there.

Like, to me, a lot of that art
will be.

Yeah, just, this is a long
winded say what long winded way

of agreeing with you that, like,
I feel like once more, people

get comfy with being more
digital than, or they accept the

fact that they're more digital
than physical that will be

looked at and admired on a
grander scale than like the fact

that they're more digital than
physical that will be looked at

and admired on a grander scale
than like the scale that we

currently have.

I guess is the point I'm trying
to get.

But, yeah, it's very
interesting nonetheless, but

there's a lot of conceptual
battles to like overcome.

Like, if I, if you talk to my
mother, like she looks at people

who code as engineers and not
artists, you know um, like

looking at numbers and code and
looking and thinking that, as

art is very, it's lost on a lot
of people, you know Um.

So, yeah, anyway, long way to
go, but uh, no, I agree, I find

it fascinating to go.

Speaker 1: But uh, no, I agree.

I find it fascinating it it
it's inevitable to me that

digital art will become the
predominant method of art.

Um, probably within the next
five years, I would guess.

Um, yeah, just to you know, I I
look at as being a digital

artist, a digital illustrator.

I didn't have a tablet I could
draw onto the computer with

until I was in college, and that
was like 2006.

And so that was 18 years ago.

And now I would say everyone not
everyone, but a vast majority

of people have access to iPads
that have pens that allow you to

draw and procreate and you can
do digital art.

That is such a departure from
20 years ago.

I had a head start in terms of
learning this stuff, but now

every teenager is growing up and
they're going to be super well

versed in all of this and
they're going to be making

insanely awesome digital art and
everyone's learning how to code

now and like to me, then we're
we're only about to experience

this like next wave of digital
artists that are just going to

be killer.

You know, um, being a digital
animator, I was a part of.

You know, maybe thousands of
artists in the us slash world

that did digital animation for
you know, 15 years ago, I would

argue.

There's millions of digital
illustrators now because of

technology evolving.

Speaker 2: So you're right, yeah
, and it's easy to think about

in different terms, but I think
you're right.

We grew up without cell phones
and that was a trip getting to

live through the birth of the
iphone.

You know like that was.

Um, there were cell phones
before that, but we had like

fucking blackberries and palm
pilots which like yeah, they

used to flip open, yeah, yeah
yeah, yeah, um, but the iphone

changed the way we, you know,
view technology and the way we

interacted with it, and it
changed society as a whole,

which was incredibly
groundbreaking.

And then they just took that,
stripped the phone out, made it

bigger and called it an iPad,
and that changed the way art was

created.

So, yeah, I think you're
absolutely right and it's

exciting, and I think that's
part of the reason for me, at

least on a personal level, is
like why I enjoy kind of being

on the edge of something,
because you can kind of see what

people are spent, the
concentrated dose of smart

people and creative people where
they spend their time, either

if they're lucky enough to be
here full-time, or just like

hustling it out on the weekends,
you know, or in any free time

they have.

Like that's what everyone's
going to be doing in the next

five to 20 years, you know, and
yeah, I feel like I missed it.

I was too young on the iPhone,
like I was like 13 or 14 and the

internet was like you know,
there was an opportunity.

There was opportunity internet,
but it was.

You really had to look for it
and I didn't.

And then you had, like the wave
of social media, which I came

in right at the end of that.

So I had like two generations
of technology where I'm like,

okay, when I found this, it was
like we're going all in and I'm

not missing this boat.

You know cause I missed the
first two boats One I get a hall

pass.

Two, I don't get a hall pass.

But you know, I think that's
what's most exciting to me here.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.

I think that's what's most
exciting to me here.

Um, yeah, so no, I agree, um,
it's one of those things where

you know, going back to this,
like outsiders talking about the

space, and they go oh, do you
think nfts are dead and do you

think?

Do you think it's really going
to be the future?

And to me, like I said, digital
art is inevitable and the

question is what is the best
method of selling it?

And it's going to be something
blockchain related.

I can't bet on which chain will
be the dominant one 20 years

from now and, in all honesty, it
might not be on a chain that

has a currency, but I do think
digital art with provenance on

the blockchain is the the most
decentralized, best way, um, of

distributing digital art.

And so it's one of those things
where it's like I'm not, you

know, it's going to go up and
down, and whether or not I

become a success long term
doesn't change my outlook on

whether the you know, the
technology and the inevitability

of of this method will be a
success I mean incredibly well

said you know like we don't, you
know like we don't know

anything, and uh, it but it, but
it but.

Speaker 2: There is like a
certain inevitability where it's

just like there's, unless
something just completely crazy

happened, where it changed,
where we got less tech, like

where we stopped using
technology more, which I don't

know what that would be, you
know, um yeah, unless that

happens, well there are a few
things.

I mean, there are a few things.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the sun could
zap everything or something.

You know there's always these
things, but I'm going to go on

the path that things will
continue to move in the

direction they're continuing to
move Totally.

Speaker 2: Well, cool man, we're
coming up on the two-hour mark,

which this has been cool man.

We're coming up on the two hour
mark, which this has been

awesome man.

Um, I've loved.

We started this off with TV
shows and movies and we're

talking about the sun melting us
, um, so I think we've run the

gamut.

Um, one question I am really
fascinated by, uh, that I've I'm

starting to ask people, um,
especially especially artists or

people involved in the art, uh,
art that that touched the art

industry is, you know, in five,
in the next, let's just call it

20 years how do you view, like,
how do you view museums?

In the next, let's just call it
yeah, like, let's just say 20

years, what do you think that
looks like?

Speaker 1: um, that's a good
question, I think.

Well, one thing that I think
will probably happen within a AR

headset and that'll be your
walking tour and you'll go look

at a Van Gogh and then there
will be a digital overlay of it

that gives you, you know,
curator notes and backstory on

Van Gogh and you can learn more
and all this other stuff.

I think physical art will have
a digital layer added on top of

it in terms of that added
context and everything, and I

think that will change how
museums work, because it will

just create an exponential
amount of content that you can

absorb about everything in the
museum.

That feels like an
inevitability to me because

it'll just make museums more fun
.

Like an inevitability to me,
because it'll just make museums

more fun.

And then, in terms of the nfts
and museums, I think we will see

um more and more start to pick
up pieces here and there.

I think it'll become you know,
you look at like a museum moving

image.

You go to the lobby of that
right now and they have low vids

, tide projectors, um, tide
predictors sorry, um projected

on the wall there, and it's not
projected as an nft, it's just

projected as here's a live,
generative piece of art on the

wall.

I think that is a blueprint of
what we'll see more and more of.

It's just art living within the
context of other art, not being

relegated to some nft room, um,
and so I think that that feels

inevitable to me.

And then I think what we're
going to end up seeing is

digital institutions, say 6529.

They become, they turn their om
into an actual, true museum per

se, and we'll we'll start to
see these institutions that

become just as important for
artists to be a part of, as the

moma and as the lacma and all
those other things, because you

want to be in these digital
collections, and so I think

we'll see how that plays out.

But I think that is the the
strongest path for the space is

to have more like every artist
wants to be in the moma, every

artist wants to be in the met.

We have to have more options
for end games for the artwork,

and that's going to come from
the space in various ways and so

and I think you will see it
start to proliferate into a lot

of smaller markets.

You could see, like the museum
in atlanta, you know, or you

know any other city we tend to
put like the top five, the

pompadour and lacma and all
these on the pedestal, um, but

there's, uh, thousands and
thousands of art museums that

could, and probably will, start
to collect digital art.

Um, so I, you know, those are.

Those are kind of three, three
things.

Speaker 2: I think about it I
like that, um, and I think those

will happen at different
periods and I think we'll have

their own little run-ups to it.

But I I really loved the
comment on, like, in addition to

how these music, the current
museums, will adapt or how

they'll, how they may function
in, you know, the next 10 to 20

years, um, but also also having
the digital footprint of that,

the digital institutions that
are just as regarded, um, I

think it's so easy to like, want
to like, seek and search for,

like validation from, just only
from the, the institutions that

we put up on a pedestal, and
it's like not that they're not

important, but if we, if we seek
too hard in that direction, or

if we, you know, if that's the
only thing we chase, then like

we're completely missing the
point of what's happening here.

Speaker 1: Um yeah, and you're
probably setting yourself up for

defeat, since they can only um
take in so much, right, you know

, and you're you're.

It's like, um, you know, going
back 20 years ago when I used to

make film festival stuff.

You know, yeah, you can submit
to Sundance and you can submit

to South by Southwest, but
there's also a lot of other film

festivals out there that are
wonderful and are willing to

show your work and they'll treat
you great.

And it's still a wonderful
thing to have little laurels on

your poster or whatever.

And it's still a wonderful
thing to have little laurels on

your poster or whatever.

And you know, of course you
want to chase the biggest things

, but don't dismiss the fact
that there's so many other

places that you could put your
art in that would probably be

shown, versus just put into a
back room.

Speaker 2: That's a great point
man, I think we're going to end

it there because I think that
was something to put a period in

.

Cool man, I think we're gonna
end it there because that was a.

I think that was something to
put a period in.

Um, cool man, brian, thank you
again so much for, yeah, not

only your time, but just, yeah,
willingness to go down all the

different rabbit holes that we
went down.

It was a lot of fun and we
covered a lot.

This was a lot of fun.

Thanks, man.

Yeah, we really did, and there
was a lot of.

It was unexpected, which is my
favorite part about these.

Uh, it's, I love doing these.

I would not be a great podcast
host if I didn't ask you what is

it?

This will probably air in about
right around a month, give or

take.

What is it that you're
currently working on?

What are you the most excited,
most excited about?

Speaker 1: and yeah, let's just,
let's just leave it there yeah,

well, a month from now, I will
be in the midst of my click

create curation credible uh and
I will uh be showcasing three

artists.

I don't I probably can say, but
I'll let people know then.

Yeah, um and uh, if you collect
all three of those artists, you

will be eligible to either mint
for free or get an airdrop of a

new edition that I'm building
or creating, and so I have to

figure out the mechanics of how
that works, but it's all to

incentivize you to go and
support these other artists, and

I think it'll be really fun.

There are three artists that I
think are just really great, and

I love what click create does
and I'm excited to be a part of

it.

So if this airs a month from
now, I'll be probably about to

drop my my, my piece, so that'll
be fun amazing man.

Speaker 2: yeah, I love what
click creates doing um, and,

yeah, really cool to get uh to
like, incentivize the, the

collection of all that, because
I think that, yeah, what they're

doing is special, it's
important, um, and the way

they've done their curation um
is is admirable and and at

schiller, we're big supporters
of them and our company vault uh

is full of click create art uh,
and getting getting every drop

that we can uh, I think we've
gotten every single drop, which

is, which is amazing to say, we
do a little company collecting,

which is fun, because not all
the time we don't always

individually get to collect all
the pieces we want, so it's fun

to allocate a little extra funds
of the treasury to supporting

people that are just doing great
work and doing a lot of great

work for artists.

Speaker 1: I'm excited for that
man and I should also add, on

Fridays and doing a lot of great
work for artists.

So I'm excited for that man and
I should also add on Fridays,

usually at 2 pm Eastern time, me
and Adam Tastic do Art First,

where we interview artists.

You mentioned Postwick.

We had her on last week.

She was great and, yeah, feel
free to.

That's a live show and we
always enjoy when people tune in

and leave comments.

And yeah, I think that'll be
the case a month from now.

I don't know what else will be
going on by then, but we'll see.

Speaker 2: For sure, awesome man
.

Well, yeah, thanks for, yeah,
yeah, thanks for plugging that.

It's great to like see artists
interview artists, like cause,

like you know it, like I would
have never considered, you know,

so I love I meant to say that
like earlier in the interview

like I I've really enjoyed, like
what you and Adam have put

together on that and it's it's a
new, it's a new way of looking,

it's new way of seeing, it's
new way of like understanding

context and and and getting
depth into a lot of stories that

we all love and know.

Speaker 1: We were talking
before the show about music for

musicians.

I hope that our show is like
art interviews for artists.

Speaker 2: Love that man, love
that dude.

Yeah, if you say it and shout
it long enough and believe it,

that's what will happen.

So, cool man, Brian, hang out
for just a little bit.

We're going to sign off here
and just let it finish happen.

So yeah, cool man, brian, hang
out for just a little bit.

We're going to sign off here
and just let it finish uploading

.

But again, I appreciate your
time and hope you have a great

rest of your night.

Thank you, you too, so you.