Speaker 1: I think that the
healthiest thing is for our

space to have.

Confidence in what we're doing
is important and it doesn't need

approval from other people.

We've reached a critical mass
where we should act with

confidence and we should get out
there and not look over our

shoulders and not ask for mommy
and daddy's approval because you

know they're sitting outside
their RV listening to the radio.

Speaker 2: Welcome to Curated, a
series of conversations with

the people shaping culture and
technology of the new internet.

This is a podcast series
produced by Schiller, the most

trusted marketing media and
consulting firm in crypto.

Before we jump in with today's
guest, we want to make it clear

that this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be considered
investment advice.

I am your host, buna, and today
I'm joined by Chris Heff,

serial entrepreneur, thought
leader, art collector and

creator.

He is a member of some of the
largest and most respected art

collecting DAOs and Web3, and
his writing has a direct impact

on some of the industry's best
thinkers.

Gm Chris, how are you on some of
the industry's best thinkers?

Gm Chris, how are you?

I'm good and yourself, sir, I'm
great.

Yeah, it's going good so far
here.

It's weird.

So I'm based out of Austin,
texas, and it's really strange

having some of these events like
South by Southwest in your

backyard and not just being a
tourist I got to be a tourist in

my city, uh, a few days ago, is
what I'm trying to say Um, so

it's really strange, kind of
like you know, uh, going to a

few events, coming back home,
getting a little rest, doing

recording a podcast, um, and
potentially going back out again

.

So, uh, it's good man.

Speaker 1: Um, beautiful weather
out here in Austin and um, um,

it's been, it's been a lot of
fun this past week.

How about yourself?

It's nice, uh, yeah.

No, I'm doing good, you know,
just trying to keep keep up with

everything happening in the
space.

Um, you know, very busy out
there right now and so I got

eyes on, I got eyes on things
and I'm not doing, not doing

work I should be doing and, you
know, gonna lock some of that

down.

But this is why we're here,
it's for, you know, when the

space comes alive.

Speaker 2: Totally, man, I feel,
you know, I'd love to know

maybe kind of a little bit of
when you got into this space.

But you know, I think I was
telling you a little bit earlier

I came in in 2021, you know,
part-time time went full time

right in the middle of the bear
market here at schiller, uh, and

this kind of comeback you know
that we're experiencing right

now.

It's like this is kind of what
I was waiting for.

It's like, okay, this is sick,
I've gone, I've round tripped my

first cycle.

Now, uh, or I've come full
circle.

So, um, yeah, dude, it feels
good.

It's hard, it's harder than
ever to pay attention.

Um, and yeah, it's in in the
best way possible, though, no

for sure.

Speaker 1: Um, yeah, no, I've
been in the space since 2017.

You know, back then I was
really, uh, one of those guys

just flipping shit coins on on
apps because there wasn't

anything else to do.

I was not a core dev, I I was
not building intro tooling, and

so I was reduced to speculating.

And when that all melted down,
come Christmas time, I threw

whatever was left in ETH, just
left it there and went back to

the rest of my life.

And you know, every six months
or so I'd check in because I'm a

consumer guy, I do, I did.

You know consumer tech, uh,
consumer apps, and so I just

check in every six months and
you know, see where eth was, and

I'd be like, oh, still
primitives and tooling, all

right.

And you know, at the end of
2019 I checked in and there, you

know, some of the early DeFi
stuff was going and I was like,

oh wow, I guess it's time to
start paying more attention.

And so I spent the end of that
year and the beginning of 2020

just trying to get my head
around what's a maker vault?

How do I interact with dApps?

I mean really basic stuff, just
trying to understand you know

how these things worked and then
at the time you know I was, I

had taken some time off from my
last startup, but I was.

I was getting a niche to build
again.

I told my whole network, hey
guys, I can't do the startup

life but like you need a higher
gun.

You know I'm your Huckleberry,
I'll come in and I'll build

something for you.

And then a week later covid hit
and I was like, well, that's

out.

And so you know, the the great
thing was the.

The ethereum space didn't quit,
uh, because, you know, it was

distributed virtual.

It was set up really well, um,
before that and I just, you know

, slid my way over there and I
was actually lucky enough to um

get connected with the lao, uh,
you know which was tributes

first out, and I joined some of
those community calls ahead of,

uh, you know, it launching.

I'd like the vibe of it and I
didn't have a network right, you

know, I didn't know people in
the states and so I thought it'd

be a great way to, you know,
find some peeps, um, and I had

no idea, you know, that, like,
that first group would end up

being my group, or you know just
how amazing it would be and and

how many different things we we
end up branching out to and so

that's uh, you know that's kind
of how I got into the space and

you know it was.

It was a really interesting
period because there were just

so many concepts to get your
head around, so many things to

evaluate everything, you know,
that was emerging at the time,

like, I mean, defy liquidity
fools, um, you know, we on the

nft side we did super rare, we
didn't have a gotchi, you know.

So there were some early nft
projects that sort of got our

head heads around that over the
summer, um, you know, which led

to the formation of Flamingo in
the fall, and the rest was

history.

Speaker 2: That's incredible,
man.

I mean, it's cool to hear some
of those kind of early days

around, because even when I came
into the space, super Rare was

still pretty new.

I came in early 2021.

So Super Rare was definitely,
definitely a thing, but it was

still very much.

It was kind of like there was
like Rarible, there was OpenSea,

and then there was, you know,
superrare, and Foundation was

also invite.

Only, you know, that was also
kind of around the time that I

came in as well.

And it's really interesting to
hear that because, like today,

we have, you know, if, if you
look at right now in 2024, we

have Magic Eden, we have OpenSea
, we have SuperRare, we have

Manifold.

Now we have Transient, now
finally getting some of their

smart contract tools available
to the public for people to use

different environment.

Um, and kind of like what you
said is uh, when you came in,

you know, there was only really,
you know, for the most part

like speculation and shit coins
and liquidity pools were just

starting to come around and defy
was just starting to bud and

there wasn't really anything
visual.

And I think for me, that was
really what I was missing when I

first came here.

Um, you know, is that I didn't
really understand crypto.

Uh, as far as, like you know,
the blocker for me was like what

do I?

Okay, this is great, but like,
what the fuck do I spend it on?

You know, like I, I didn't
quite understand that concept

and once I saw pictures I was
like, oh cool, like tokenized

art, digital objects, like makes
sense that we need to own those

because we're not going any
less digital as a society, and

so that was like one of the
first moments that like really

clicked for me.

Um, but it was really cool to
it's, it was great to hear kind

of that.

You know that short, you know
that the intro of like how, how

you kind of found it, um, and
kind of how the conviction maybe

just grew once the tooling
started to get a little bit

better, um, I would, I, I
question, I have is, like you

know, being I want, want, maybe
want to jump right into this

like, because there was an
article that you wrote around,

um, and I've really enjoyed a
lot of your writing.

It's really how I got to know
you and I found you through

fungible and um, uh, the writing
specifically on building

products and like and how, like,
right, and I think this is like

a few months ago, uh, but it
was like right now may not be

the best time to build consumer,
consumer products and crypto,

um, and I thought that was a
really fascinating uh article

and correct me if, like, the
verbiage is slightly wrong.

Um, I'm just pulling this,
pulling this from my memory here

, um, but would love to kind of
maybe have you expand on that

and if anything has changed um
from that article since then,

because it's something that I
really, I really resonated with

yeah, sure.

Speaker 1: So I guess the first
thing to say right is that was

coming from my perspective.

It's not to say you shouldn't
be building in consumer crypto

it's why I wouldn't to find
product markets that to be able

to iterate your way into a good
product you know to, to have

enough um interactions and
feedback to, to be able to

refine that experience working
against you know, some knowledge

of what people want and don't
want.

And so you know, I think, that
one of the lessons of our space

is is timing matters, that you
know we're blessed with this

incredible, you know group of
builders, this incredible

entrepreneurial spirit, and you
know, sometimes it feels like

everyone in the space is making
something and no one's actually

consuming anything.

And so you know, you just need
to know when the environment is

right for what you're doing.

And there are just certain
things because the timing has

been better earlier for, you
know, say, defi, or because we

live in a hyper-financialized
environment.

People look at the sheer volume
of all this fake internet money

that you know A flows through
these systems because we create

on these systems and thinks, wow
, this is massive.

And then, you know, you start
to peel that back and you start

to translate that to wallet, and
then you know, you think about,

well, you know, I carry six
different wallets that I work

out of.

You know, and I'm probably on
the light side when you start

getting into.

You know the people who do, uh,
airdrop farming or defy, or you

know some of these other
activities, um, or you know

people who are just hardcore and
on and very protective about

their op sex, um, and you know
then, when you're in and I was

writing that in the bear, um, so
you know a lot, of, a lot of

people weren't around at the
time as well, and you kind of

get down to.

Well, you, you know, are we
building consumer apps for you

know, maybe 500,000 people on
mainnet and is that enough?

And so it really that tweet was
kind of about like having

situational awareness and
understanding, and so, just for

me, because I tend to do best
when systems get bigger, um, I

like to, I like to make things
cheap and plentiful, and so,

just, you know the particular,
you know my bag of tricks

doesn't really line up and and
you know, that's not to say

other people can't be doing
consumer crypto.

I, I think a lot of like the
emerging stuff in the social

finance fire arena.

Um, you know, starting to treat
, um, you know,

hyper-financialized gambling as
a form of entertainment and you

know I'm not talking like the
straight on, you know deedden

gambling stuff, but but things
like crypto, the game, you know

where you can do like this sort
of like episodic content,

reality tv on chain right, like
that's an example of a spot

that's just opening up for this
space and I think will do very

well, uh, you know, for the next
year or so.

But when you talk about, you
know, maybe reproducing some of

the Web2 stuff or the mobile OS
stuff, right, or you know, just

everyday consumer, we don't have
the scale yet to operate, and

so you know that's really what
that tweet was about.

It was about understanding who
you are and knowing whether or

not the environment is right for
you know that's really what

that tweet was about.

It was about understanding who
you are and knowing whether or

not the environment is right for
you know a particular thing and

look, plenty of people can
force it, but I'm an old man at

this point and you know I'm not
going to try to do that.

So that's where that tweet was
coming from.

I got you man?

Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was
one of my main takeaways.

Is that like it's a?

The landscape here of my main
takeaways?

Is that like it's a the the
landscape here it's?

It's got breadth but it doesn't
really have depth.

You know, um, and it's hard to
get something that last year

where you know it'll spread far
and wide and you align

incentives appropriately, and,
uh, but some, you know, the next

shiny thing comes around and
all of a sudden, you know what

you built just doesn't matter or
it becomes obsolete so fast.

And there's like a from a
non-person perspective, there's

like a beauty to that.

But also, I can imagine if you
built something and spent a lot

of time and then for people to
just quickly change their, just

to quickly move to something
else, it has to be a gut punch

and it has to be incredibly
de-incentivizing to want to

actually build.

And so I guess and I think we
chatted about this a little like

a week or so ago on that space
about kind of these, you know

constellation of networks, you
know this constellation of

things that are popping up.

Do you think that, like, just
from your perspective?

I and I ask this genuinely
because, like, sometimes I spend

so much time here that I don't.

I don't have enough time to
like spend in the traditional

world outside here.

As far as like what's being
built, some of the new products,

do you think that like the far
and wide um and kind of like

episodic moments um, maybe not
episodic, but kind of like the

breadth versus depth is going to
be like the new meta for a

while of like just society in
general?

Like how we build products,
like is does, like the rest of

the world still mimic this?

Is the rest of the world on
track to mimic the way product

is built here?

Or are we just kind of like in
this little like twilight zone,

like this weird moment in time
where, like this is kind of like

a it works for the time being
but it won't in the future?

Speaker 1: yes and yes.

So I think both.

The society is speeding up and,
you know, as we become a fully

networked society, we we start
moving more internet speed and

that speed is definitely around
flows of attention from things

that you know, from thing to
thing.

Um, you know people in writing
about the death of monoculture

for decades at this point and
they were doing it against the

lens of traditional broadcast
media and old distribution

models and you know sort of
lamenting the loss of a thing.

But when you bring that over to
the internet and start looking

there, you know it's actually
more of the native form that we

don't really want to be
homesteading.

You know there's a reason Second
Life didn't become Facebook.

We have that already and I
think when we're living

digitally we're looking for
something else, and part of that

is, you know, the ability to
join these flows of attention

and flows of information and and
sort of glom onto something in

a very rabid manner for an
intense period.

You know a short but intense
period of time.

You know, get what we can from
it at a speed at which you know

wasn't provided to us.

Say you know, get what we can
from it at a speed at which you

know wasn't provided to us, say,
you know, when you had to wait

every Sunday for Tony Soprano to
pop up?

Yeah, and so I think some of
that is embracing native forms,

but then it's also, our space is
very accelerationist and it

moves at an even greater speed
than than internet speed, and

that's that's fascinating, um,
you know, because I I think we

we do act as a hothouse where,
you know the future is being

formed and that gives us sort of
maybe an outsized influence on

how that future should behave or
what the right values are for

it, when things you know either
do cross over out of our space

or the space, you know, the rest
of the world comes to

understand what we're doing.

Um, and so you know the other
thing is like in our space, the

optimal strategy is still to be
far and wide and an inch deep.

The way the reward mechanisms
are distributed, the way that,

um, you know our space thinks
that money or tokens and you

know, and financial alignment is
marketing and product marketing

and communications and building
a customer relationship.

They don't really understand
what they're doing is, or maybe

they do understand and you know
they just don't care.

You know that, like, straight
incentives are fine, as long as

those incentives are on and EV
positive.

But once they're off, you know
you need good product at the end

of the day, and so we just run
around from thing to thing, you

know, looking to hit home runs,
and we're not wrong to do that.

I mean, you know you're allowed
.

You know, to make a pretty
healthy living off being a

participant.

You know, which is an
opportunity that you know no

other space really affords you,
which is an opportunity that no

other space really affords you.

But at the end of the day, that
eventually has to wind down, or

it can certainly be an
important part of the stew, but

you're going to need more than
that.

You're going to need to provide
value to users, and so that

part of the practice needs to
come on, and I think you know

this space one day won't be
500,000 generalists, right,

which?

Speaker 2: is kind of what it is
today.

Yeah, I that statement hit.

Yeah for sure.

Yeah, a lot of generalists here
.

There's a lot that you
mentioned there.

That was super fascinating and I
think it's almost kind of

helped, because there's part of
me that just gets so exhausted

with the speed at which this
moves and being in here full

time and understanding where the
attention flows and where to

spend my time and how to spend
it properly.

Actually, there's moments like
where I pop my head out to just

like go to the grocery store or
like go do something normal,

where it's like man, this feels
like an effort, like this feels

just like a completely different
world, um, and I just always

wonder, you know, like for
people that are maybe resistant

towards it, or like not there
yet, or uh, whatever the case

may be, um is to be the future
of how everything is built, and

there's a sense that, for me,
I'm like wow, is there going to

be anything that helps us cope
with the speed of this in the

future?

And there's part of me that's
very conflicted on that and

there's part of me that enjoys
it.

There's part of me that doesn't
, where I just feel exhausted

after spending 16 hours between
Twitter and Warpcast and

Instagram and Discord and all
this other shit and protocols at

the end of the day.

Which brings me to a thought
I've been having a lot and, yeah

, I'm happy this is coming up,
because, on one hand, you have

people like.

Something I've noticed is that
there's a lot of people building

products.

There's like two camps.

There's like we need to build
products and protocols and new

means of value creation for like
, only for crypto people Like.

It's like if you're building,
if you're like trying to cater

to the masses, then you're doing
it wrong.

You need to cater to your own
audience.

But then there's another camp
that's like building consumer

crypto, and I think we're seeing
we're starting to see that

happen quite a bit with or at
least the start of that

happening with L2s, where people
are starting to be able to

build things like frames and
apps and and all this new.

You know, uh, all this new, all
these new ways to make it a

little bit more.

Uh, meet everyone else outside
of the industry where they're at

um, and I'm personally of the
camp where I think like both are

right.

But like do you, from your
perspective as like a product

guy, like, do you think that
there is really one place we,

you know, and this is a bit
binary and black and white

thinking and a black and white
question, but and I I bet the

answer isn't that, but you know
what camp is really uh, right

here, because if we're only
building for crypto, like I, I

look at like some context.

I look at like making crypto so
kind of ridiculous that people

can't not pay attention to it
Cause that's kind of how I was

onboarded.

I was onboarded by like the $69
million people sale and I'm

like what the fuck is you know
an NFT?

How?

How did you buy a picture on
the internet?

Um, what's this culture?

Like I was really hooked by
that.

But uh, and I went and read a
few white papers and figured it

out, but most people aren't
going to go read a bunch of

white papers.

You know we need to meet them
where they're at.

I guess that's the long
roundabout question of like, do

we need to meet people where
we're at, or meet people where

they're at, people who are not
participants, or do we just say

fuck it and just keep building,
for, you know, the people who

are currently here and engaging
with the protocols much more?

Speaker 1: Right, I more right.

I mean the answer is both, but
you're not looking for me to say

both.

You're looking for me to say
one or the other, and of course,

I'm going to have to say we
need to be natives.

Um, you know, there's a lot
that is net new about operating

on chain, about having this
permissionless, distributed

global ledger currency state
machine that's composable, that

anyone can walk into and have an
impact upon.

That's net new, sure, and it
deserves to be treated in a way

that is net new, because if we
just want to be skeuomorphic and

we just want to, you know,
replace something that is

already an existing product
stack, but, you know, make it

more financialized, or create
alignment through token

incentives, or create alignment
through token incentives, then

we're not really pushing our
design patterns and we're not

discovering what we can do with
this thing.

And so I think that the
healthiest thing is for our

space to have confidence in what
we're doing is important and it

doesn't need approval from
other people, and that we should

push as far into what is
possible that hasn't been done

before, you know, such that when
that other group of people who

you know are trying to, you know
, bridge worlds, who you know,

see all the benefits and
affordances that you know

digital property ownership
brings.

Or, you know, aligned incentive
value between services and users

.

You know, having a secure,
trusted computing environment

that's sufficiently
decentralized.

You know, when people want to
bring the Starbucks loyalty

coins onto, that they should
have a whole corpus of native

products, native thinking,
native approaches that they can

study and can pull from where
appropriate so that you know

they can act as that.

You know, second wave behind
the vanguard to, you know, adopt

and shape people who aren't
willing or ready to make such a

radical shift, or, you know,
just simply don't want to give

it the time.

You know there's benefits to
both, but the the more crypto

native approach has to lead the
way, because if it doesn't lead,

then best practices and you
know, emerging uh, things that

we can offer to people that
they've never seen before, once

they've gotten comfortable,
won't exist.

Speaker 2: Fair.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense
and that question came a lot

from you know, when I get asked,
you know, I'm at that phase

where people are asking again,
which is again like gigabullish.

But I find myself increasingly
at odds with like trying to

understand and like meet people
where they're at.

You know cause, like I think
after being here for so long I'm

not gonna say so long but after
just completing a like one

cycle, uh, it gets harder and
harder to you know, like really

meet people where, that when
they ask me about it, you know,

um and I I just take I take the
more art approach, you know, and

I about, you know again, art,
video games, those are the

things I know the most.

But I just I constantly wonder,
you know, and maybe this is

just like a weird way that I
think about it, but you know I

and I'm not sure how everyone
else found this space, people

probably were less dramatic but
I just wonder, you know, about

the day where the world kind of
shifts towards the products that

, or shifts towards you know
what we've been building here

for the past.

You know, well, if you look at
Zoom out like a decade, you know

, like the last decade.

You know what's it going to.

You know what's it going to
take for people.

You know what's it going to.

You know what's it going to
take for people.

You know because, uh, I'm like
my life was not really going, at

least professionally.

I was at a pretty low point in
my career and I was like very

just hungry for something new.

And it's like what happens when
that happens at scale, is that

going to happen, you know, when
people are just very unhappy and

they're just searching for
something new, or is that?

Is that what it's going to take
for other people to find this?

Because it's hard to make
people curious unless they have

an incentive to be curious.

It's hard to make people.

It's hard to.

People aren't going to try
something until they have a good

enough reason to do so with
their already busy lives.

So it's a lot of where that
question comes from.

It's like, are we going to go
towards another financial

collapse, you know?

Uh, or is there going to be
some catastrophic failure

somewhere where people like wake
the fuck up and they're like,

oh shit, like, um, maybe this is
way better than what we have?

Uh, maybe what we've had before
, um, I don't know.

I'm just spitballing here and
kind of on a caffeinated ramble,

but that's like what I think
about constantly.

It's like what's that like?

What is that catalyst?

And I think I'm okay with being
patient because I think the

more you know, the more time we
have before quote unquote the

masses come, the more
opportunity there is to you know

selfishly, like you know, have
have a, have a wider slice of

the pie, but but also you know,
in line, in line with the

conversation, just to build you
know more, just kind of double

down on building what we've been
building and and finding where

we can really take this.

Speaker 1: Hey, like there,
there's no good answer, right?

I mean, only time is going to
show us what it was that got the

space over, and it's even
possible that the space doesn't

get over, right?

We don't know that for sure.

I mean, we could all be like
ham radio operators right now

and you know, or cbs with when
that was a thing back in the 70s

?

I mean, I don't think so.

Yeah, right, I, I don't spend
my time here to end up in a

niche hobby, but that is
entirely possible.

It's weird because, you know,
people like to think maybe a

little too binary in their views
of the world.

And I understand why.

Right, because we have so much
information to absorb and we

only have so much processing
time in our head.

But we live in a world of
overlays.

You know, I still listen to the
radio when I drive around um,

that's wild.

I haven't listened to that in
over 10 years the radio still

exists, there are still djs,
they still put music on and you

know a lot of my driving is I
live in new york, so you know,

know it's running my son to
Little League.

I'm only driving 15 minutes and
the radio works.

So you know these things don't
go away, we just lay more and

more on top of them.

And it's really about you know
how people are living and what

this whole selection you know of
different technology stacks,

how it fits into your life.

And you know, as time goes on
and we do become more and more

fully networked society, you
know the need to have

programmable money, interacting
with programmable media or

programmable objects, right Like
that's going to become

increasingly important.

And so you know whether
everyone shows up tomorrow or

you know whether three decades
from now this stuff just kind of

sits silently under the hood.

You know, in partnership with
you know, ai or you know

whatever like the next stack
ends up becoming.

You know it remains to be seen.

And look, we're, we're a big
enough group of people, we, we

do enough volume.

Um, you know to prove much of
this out at scale.

And so you know well, I do say
hey, look, you can't go build a

you know mainstream consumer app
today.

Like there's plenty of things,
you can't go build a mainstream

consumer app today.

There's plenty of things you
can be doing in this space and

it continues to grow and time
will be the arbiter of how

important it will be.

But we've reached a critical
mass where we should act with

confidence and we should get out
there and not look over our

shoulders and not ask for mommy
and daddy's approval because you

know they're sitting outside
their rv listening to the radio

fair point, yeah, and I think a
lot of where that's yeah, that's

a, that's a very fair point.

Speaker 2: and I I think where a
lot of that comes from is I

remember how kind of doughy eyed
and bright eyed I was when I

came in here, you know, in 2021.

And I think 2023 definitely
jaded me a bit.

You know to where it's like
there's that PTSD, oh, it will.

So a lot of these are coming
from like this, like fear and

PTSD.

I'm like fuck, like, is this
really?

Uh, is this really a thing?

I mean, I know I just survived,
but, uh, it's almost like this

fear of this, like fear of
letting myself become excited

again, if that makes sense.

Um, and I'm sure you've been
through that in a few cycles uh,

where it's?

You're like okay, like my
conviction is clearly there.

Uh, there's it clearly doubled
down?

Um, you know, obviously, or
else I wouldn't be here.

I'll say, just be a psychopath
who just enjoys pain.

Um, you know, obviously, or
else I wouldn't be here, I'll

just be a psychopath who just
enjoys pain, you know.

But the more and more I have
these conversations, the more

it's like okay, you know it's
because you're right, like we've

, we've.

Clearly, the space has grown.

You know like institutional
capital.

You know like regardless of how
you want to measure growth,

like there's a lot of ways to
measure it, but especially most

recently, we had the ETF and a
lot of institutional money come

in.

That's pretty bullish to me and
just the amount of people that

are still here creating and
collecting art and finding new

ways to do that and building
tools for artists to discover

new ways to make new work.

That hasn't gone away from both
the product side and from the

government side as well.

There's two different areas
that I looked at there, so I

guess it probably would make
sense and I want to transition

to more of the art side as well,
because you are a member of the

Lau and Flamingo and what you
guys have done is just

absolutely incredible.

It's really great to it.

You know I had a had a chat with
ben roy the other day or it was

a couple months ago on, when we
did a podcast and um.

We were talking about dows and
um.

That was like the first.

You know flamingo is like the
first um, and correct me if I'm

wrong like I'm not quite sure
what the lau is, if it's just a

fancy word of saying Dao or if
there's something to that.

But what y'all are doing is
like really one of the use cases

for a Dao that I'm like, wow,
this makes sense.

You know this like because Daos
, I think, struggle with getting

people to vote, you know, and
that's not just a problem with

Daos, it's just a problem in
general.

It's not sexy, governance is not
typically sexy.

Daos is just a problem in
general.

It's not sexy, governance is not
typically sexy and things that

people want to keep in mind.

You know people want to do a
lot of.

So I just wanted to say, you
know, it's cool to watch from

the sidelines from Flamingo or
watching what Flamingo does, and

maybe we'd just love to know,
from your perspective, what role

you know do you play at
Flamingo and like, how do you

guys make decisions like on what
to, on like what to buy?

You know, um cause and I'll
I'll add some more context is

that you know a lot of people
here look for signal.

You know a lot of people here
look to people who have great

taste and culture, and Flamingo
is definitely, you know, full of

that Um, and so I guess, from
your perspective of people who

have, and so I guess from your
perspective of people who have,

who are great tastemakers, who
have a higher you know, who are

a little bit more cultured, like
what, what makes something

worth, you know, allocating a
large capital, a large amount of

capital towards so there's a
lot.

Speaker 1: There is a lot For
the people who are dying to know

what the LAO stands for it's
Legal Autonomous Organization,

and so it's a play on the
original DAO, the one that was

hacked and led to Ethereum
forking.

Way back in the day, aaron
Wright, who is the founder of

Trib tribute labs, which is
originally open law.

He wanted to create um, a
compliant structure.

You know that that operated on
the same principles but could

operate in the us as a delaware
llc gotcha, and so that that's

kind of where the legal part.

But now that we've like
scratched you know that itch for

like all two of your listeners
who really needed to know that

we can move on to more funner
things.

Um and flamingo.

Flamingo is probably the
funnest thing any of its members

do on chain, and I think that's
a big key to its success.

Is we all freaking love it.

It's.

It's the best call of my week.

It's.

It's a group of people who geek
out head to toe on all aspects

of nfts, on chain culture.

You, from simply appreciating
the art like we certainly are

appreciators you know we tend to
have a very savvy mind around

how these things behave, and you
know, I think, that exists on

two levels.

Right, like we love just
exploring the game theory,

understanding, you know, these
sort of emerging patterns of

behavior that have been taking
place in the space and we can we

can often spend half our call
just walking through the

dynamics of a certain thing, or,
you know, debating um.

You know what a store of value
is, how that changes, what are

the certain properties of it,
but we also certainly like to

get into the actual trading of
it.

Now, we tend to be a buy and
hold sort of warehouse operation

and so you don't see us very
busy on the sell side.

But you know, when you own tens
of thousands of digital objects

and you've been doing it, you
know since 2000, you start to

run into unique problems that
other people don't deal with.

And so you know, like looking at
, like the attention barbell of

how NFTs are valued, where you
know early on if they happen to

break through, you know they go
through this period if market

conditions are right, where you
know they appreciate in value

and you know they get up to
maybe you know some frothy floor

, but then they have to hold
that.

You know some frothy floor but
then they have to hold that.

You know they have to hold,
hold that value through this

sort of long middle period where
that attention starts to fade,

where there are other bright,
shiny things, where what we come

to value may change and it has
to get to, you know, that other

end of the barbell where people
can appreciate these things as

objects of significance.

You know that things that have
like cultural importance

attached to them and you know,
come into the space wanting to

acquire something that you know
they've heard about, that you

know is a brand new concept to
them, even though you know it's

not.

Maybe we've been holding for
three years.

Or, you know, in the case of,
like you know, say, punks that

have existed for, you know,
almost six years, at this point,

um, you know that's the unique
thing that flamingo has to think

about at scale is how how do
you navigate the life cycle of

these things and how does that
change your collecting?

You know, if you don't want to
end up with a thousand sappy

seals in, you know, sitting in a
vault, that, um, you know you

don't actively trade right.

And so, you know, flamingo, I
think, by virtue of being early,

by virtue of creating a great
group of members who have

interests all over the place and
, having worked together for so

long in a very high trust
environment, you know where,

when someone comes to the table,
you know with a thing that

maybe you don't have personal
interest in or you're not deep

enough in, and you know to know
to trust that person and and to

give them, uh, you know,
collectively, you know sort of

give that person, um, you know,
the green light to go out there

and and and act on our behalf
and and that that's really

powerful as well is.

You know we all tend to, I don't
know, be very loose and

trusting and you know, have that
relationship where we're big

enough as a group where you know
no one's the boss of swimming,

you know like, and we're all
people who you know have, have

had that responsibility in other
parts of our life, and this is

something we come to for joy,
and so we tend to work very

collaboratively, uh, in a way
that just was so refreshing.

You know, after having been
through the you know rigmarole

of working for 20 years and in
late neo neoliberal corporate

america, you know, um, it's just
great to walk into a room like

that where none of those power
dynamics exist.

Speaker 2: That's incredible,
man.

It's cool to kind of hear yeah
and the and the and the, and the

vibe definitely shift when we
talked about that and you can,

you can hear, um, you know like
the, the fun part, like I think

that's like the best part about
this is that you know we've, you

know like the fun part, like I
think that's like the the best

part about this is that you know
we've, you know collecting

art's fun, like examining
culture's fun, and it sounds

like, yeah, it sounds like
something really special, man,

and I appreciate you like kind
of giving a little bit of

insight and, behind the curtain,
of like how you guys function

on a high level, because I've
even noticed that within just

some small moments in Schiller,
where it's like, you know, a lot

of us have like great taste in
culture.

Uh, and there's been times
where, um, someone's made a

recommendation that you know
maybe me or you know you know a

few other people uh didn't have
on their radar, and that ends up

, whether it's an interview,
whether it's curating them for

like an art release or whatever
the case may be, um, it ends up

becoming something really
special and it's uh building,

you know, kind of having that
foundational layer of trust of

like man, like there's.

There's so many things to
capture our attention here and,

um, it's impossible to have an
in-depth knowledge of every

aspect, um, especially when it
comes comes to culture.

But but it's cool to kind of
hear that and I guess one of the

questions I had for you just
that I've always, you know,

because you're a deep thinker is
and this may come out of left

field but terraforms.

I recently fell down the rabbit
hole of just listening to 113

Spaces, you know, probably for
the past, one, three spaces, um,

you know probably for the past
like four or five months, um,

but really started to, I guess,
have the confidence to try to

think about some of the concepts
he talks about, um in the space

and just really trying to
trying to do my best to

understand, uh, terraforms, um.

So I want to ask, from your
perspective you guys own like a

few hundred of them.

Speaker 1: You know, uh, what?

How would you explain
terraforms, um, from your

perspective?

Okay, terraforms are networked,
runtime art that uses, you know

, smart contract space,
distributed, commute, the

affordances of creating art for
the chain as a native medium.

You know, that's my like fancy.

I have to say I know what
Terraforms are.

Answer, because, if not, you
know I'll get scolded online.

I mean, one thing about the
Terraform folks is they take

their Terraforms very, very
seriously and I respect this.

Um, you know it's, it's a 3d
hyper castle, um, the each

parcel looks very pretty, it
flashes, it's dot matrix.

You know, all the, all the code
that you know is in one one.

Three involves brain, uh, has
to get manifested in a symbolic

nature that we can relate to,
and so, you know, we've got

these pretty flashing grids that
happen to be able to change and

be programmed if you want them
to.

Um, and so you know, that's one
way of looking at them, another

way maybe of thinking about it,
and I don't think we've quite

gotten there yet.

But with um, the upgrade and
satellites and broadcasts, you

know, are terraforms moving
towards a subscription on on

demand?

Um, you know, maybe a push model
of generative art that, you

know, does make better use of
the space versus, you know, art

blocks, which, you know,
pioneered the pull model of, you

know, generative outputs that
are inert, dependent, free, have

no external dependencies.

Are we going from?

Art blocks equals Bitcoin and
terraforms equals ETH?

And that because they exist as
programmable smart contracts

right, they're capable of
syndicating out generative art

and, you know, instead of having
to, you know, saddle on up to

the Dutch auction honey, we got
more art blocks coming.

You know, can we now exist in
this mode of discovery and joy?

You know, when we find our
antennas picking up, you know

something from their mad minds
as they continue to iterate out

that project.

Speaker 2: Gotcha Okay, that's a
great way of describing that.

That's not even close to what I
would.

I'm still working through that
myself, even close to what I

would.

I'm, I'm, I'm still working,
working through that uh, myself,

and it's you bring up, but you
bring up a couple of great

points, um, and something that
I've heard, you know them talk

about a lot, and that's, I think
, just to circle back to the

very beginning of that.

Yeah, the community around, uh,
terraforms is incredibly, uh, is

incredibly passionate and
incredibly precise, and they've,

you know, a lot of people study
it very deeply, and I think

that's something for me that was
like my favorite.

Let's call it a side quest, you
know, especially like during

during the bear market, when
there wasn't a whole lot of

interesting things to pay
attention to and people were

generally just, you know, uh,
yeah, not, you know, generally

speaking, there's a lot of great
people that we're building,

yeah, not, you know, generally
speaking, there's a lot of great

people that we're building, uh,
but the vibe was just

horrendous.

Uh, to be here full-time and
terraforms was something that I

could really sink my teeth into,
and it reminded me of when I

first came here, of, like, I
don't really quite know what

this is, but I have a feeling,
uh, that I'm just gonna follow

and it like makes sense and it
and it's challenging me to think

in a lot of new ways that I
haven't been challenged in

before.

And I find it really
interesting because I missed out

on a lot of the early art
blocks.

I didn't really dive into
generative art until last year

when we launched Prohibition,
because I think for me the

biggest thing was I didn't want
to get involved purely for the

financial aspect.

Um, of course, it's, like, you
know, always a thing and, uh,

it's, it's the challenge of
being here is that, you know, do

I really enjoy this or is this
just making me money type of

thing?

Cause I didn't really, from a
visual perspective and a code

perspective, I just hadn't
wrapped my mind around that.

I was still very much, uh, you
know, like I, I spent a lot of

time interviewing photographers
and illustrators and you know,

like I spent a lot of time
interviewing photographers and

illustrators and you know, in
more traditional mediums, more

things that I could grasp or
wrap my head around, and so I

find this really it's kind of
weird timing that, you know, the

moment I get into generative
art, you know, we've kind of,

we're kind of crossing into this
like new frontier of like what

generative art could be and what
runtime art could be in network

art and systems art.

Um, those were, you know,
concepts, were right.

When I started to learn about
generative art, I was like, fuck

, this kind of like turned it on
its head of like, oh man, like

now that there's, it's, there's
a, there's an even deeper layer,

um, to this that I just
completely missed, um, so it

kind of makes me, um, you know,
ever, ever since I've been

studying them and looking at
them, it kind of makes me wonder

, you know and in the beginning
I wasn't too confident to say

this, but I think you know I am
now but it just like a lot of

what we, what was valued, you
know, from Artblocks, engine and

from the early 2021 days.

I feel like Terraforms has kind
of opened up the collective

conscience of like, okay, we
haven't really had a new medium

of art in a long time.

And this feels like computers
as the medium and systems as the

medium and the world, computer
as the medium, just introduce

new levels of thought that, if
I'm honest, make my head hurt

sometimes, but it feels exciting
.

Again, you know it feels, it
feels exciting to like for me

personally, to kind of undo what
I think I know or, like you

know, undo you know, some of the
like.

You know it's like we primarily
value things on their visual

component and I think this has
really challenged me to be able

to appreciate terraforms not
only at the visual level because

they are visually like, I just
love to look at them like that's

the best part and one of my
favorite parts but to look like,

you know, 69 layers deep to
conceptually what you know, what

like, what is this you know and
how is this opening the door

and what art will be created as
a result of Terraform's kind of

slamming the door wide open.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: A hundred percent and
it's important.

Right, like what one, one,
three is doing by hosting seven,

eight, 42 hour Twitter spaces,
going on and on and on about

this stuff.

Right, like he is opening minds
, he's expanding you know, the

realm of what is possibility is
just by being out there and

preaching like that and putting
such importance on it.

Um, you know, everyone has
their part to play, everyone has

the thing that they're
extremely passionate about and

you know him viewing this, right
, like programming as an

artistic medium, I think is an
important frame of reference for

a lot of people.

And you know people, people,
you know, as we get into like

sort of archetypes and cultural
programming, you know the, the

torture genius, artists or the
person so far ahead of their

time, um, you know that is an
important, relatable archetype.

Um, you know that helps people,
you know, maybe get comfortable

with.

You know, a whole whole range
of possibilities or like all the

affordances of this new medium.

Um, you know, and, and so I
think what, what, what's going

on there is is really important
and, you know, opens up a lot of

minds.

But also, I think that's one of
the best things about this

space is that we're operating so
far out on the information

curve.

We're really kind of at that
bleeding edge of emergent ideas.

That's what gets me in the Like
, that's why I get out of bed

and why I show up is because
it's constantly challenging you

to, you know, expand your
conceptions, to, you know,

evaluate things that you don't
really have consensus around and

think critically.

That stuff's catnip for me, and
so, you know, I can certainly

appreciate, like Terraforms
doing that in, you know, in the

form of network digital objects
that people can relate to,

because you know, like, my
catnip is thinking more

abstractly in networks and in
systems, right, like that's the

way my brain's wired and it's
kind of it's a more unique

position that isn't as common.

Speaker 2: And so you know, we
need this whole spectrum of ways

to approach you know this, this
emerging landscape, yeah, and

you, you said a lot of
interesting things there and we

can, yeah, uh, take this, you
know, take this uh a little

deeper, but it's, yeah, it's,
it's flung the door wide open,

like I think one of my favorite
phrases is like tupperware art

and like that really just stuck
with me.

I'm like, damn, it's kind of
brutal, but it's also very

honest.

You know like what, what is?

Uh, you know what, what is?

What is an artist, like a
capital, a artist mean?

What does Tupperware art mean?

And it doesn't really need an
explanation.

I think if you just sit with
that for a while, you kind of

understand.

Or at least that's what it was
with me.

And yeah, that was one of the
things that gave me a lot of

hope during the bear cycle was
having someone kind of just so

unapologetically, just kind of
beat the drum.

And you know, I, I think you
know I've heard, definitely

heard some fair criticisms on,
you know, people that are maybe

on the outside or like talking
about uh, you know the way he

talks about it kind of it can,
it can be.

Some people think it's like
condescending at times, um, and

I've definitely thought that in
the very beginning, but also at

the same time, like I've seen
him be challenged and being

welcome to be challenged and
having some thoughtful debate,

and I think that's really
healthy.

And I look at a lot of my
favorite artists.

You know a lot of.

You know one of my favorite
bands in the world is tool.

You know that is my favorite
band in the world.

But you look at maynard, you
know he kind of has a very

similar uh, you know he kind of
has a very similar aura.

You know where he like he loves
to create and he's good at what

he creates, but he doesn't give
a fuck about, you know, like

the fans in general.

You know like he loves what he
does, uh, but even in the vip

shows he never like when we do
soundcheck like part of the vip

show is getting soundcheck, um,
he never is there for the

soundcheck.

Like like part of the VIP show
is getting soundcheck, um, he

never is there for the
soundcheck.

Like he could care less.

You know, um, and he doesn't
really like meeting people and

he doesn't really like he's
loosened up a little bit over

the years but what I'm saying is
that people have grown to

appreciate that that's just who
he is, you know, but he's, he's

unapologetically himself and he
knows, like what he's good at

and what he's not, and people
love him for that.

And I think that that's kind of
like the way I've approached you

know.

Approach that Like if you're
not, if you don't have some

level of like delusion about
yourself or like you're not

delusionally bullish about
yourself in a few aspects, it's

kind of hard to, it's kind of
hard to sell it, you know, like

it's like if I'm, if you're not
bullish on you, how can I be

bullish on you?

Type of mindset is the way I
look at that and I think that it

can definitely for people who
are, just like you know, new to

that, it can definitely be a
culture shock and use the simple

sense of that word.

But yeah, I think I really
appreciate the level of

curiosity as far as, like you
know, what he's done and what

he's allowed people to do,
enabled people to do.

There's, there's nothing, yeah,
it's been like the one thing

that I've, yeah, that I've just
I guess I've really appreciated

and so I guess, maybe, maybe on
that on that beat, as like

systems as art, as network, you
know network, maybe on that on

that beat, as like systems as
art as network, you know,

network art, um, you know, in an
ever increasing like you know

like, and this may make sense,
it may not make sense, so just

bear with me here a little bit.

Um, you know, this podcast is
audio only, you know, um, and

video and visuals are so
dominant in our culture and I'm

constantly at odds with wanting
to do video, not wanting to do

video, and really I find a lot
of value in just audio and I

think it's a very primal sound.

I think just looking at things
that aren't necessarily super,

super pretty forces me to really
be present with whatever I'm

consuming and I kind of look at
that as like code based art, you

know as well.

Or, like you know, looking at,
maybe not, the beauty is not

necessarily the visual, the
beauty is the concept.

Um, I guess it's really what
I'm going towards and I'm making

it.

Maybe I might be making a weird
abstract connection there, um,

but I guess you know as a result
, I guess you know, as a result

of this, you know, maybe in the
next couple years because I see

1.1.3 doing this with Terraforms
Do you see anyone else kind of

making systems art as well?

I think Han is a great example
as well, but I would love to

kind of know have you seen any
other artists kind of taking

this and running with it?

I guess is the question I'm
looking for, because I'd be

really curious to know, because
I think it really just

challenges what we think is
valuable.

Is it visual, is it the code,
is it the concept?

Yeah, I guess there's a lot
there, but would love to know

maybe have you seen any
additional artists that are kind

of pushing the boundaries in a
similar way?

Speaker 1: My favorite show last
year was AGH.

I think that was in December,
maybe November, but that was Kim

Assendorf, andreas Geissen,
leander Herzog and they, you

know they're very much in this
camp of creating runtime art

that you know is digitally
native is hella amazing to look

at, but it doesn't exist until
you execute it right is hella

amazing to look at, but it
doesn't exist until you execute

it right.

You call the art, the art runs.

You don't hang the art on the
wall, you don't print out a

picture of it, it's not designed
for a specific screen

resolution, right, like what
they're producing is thinking

digitally native.

And you know how to represent
that stuff.

I mean in browser, right,
whatever form browser happens to

take, have gun will travel, you
know, create generative art

that fits and forms to screen
and is not something that you

know you're storing as a file or
printing and putting a picture

on your wall.

And I think you know there's
Terraform's, because maybe he's

so system oriented in his
thought and you know like is

working one giant ongoing
project, uh, the pair of them,

whereas you know ass and orf
geysin like they're working more

within the constraints of long
form generative, um, you know

they're sort of like binding
themselves to an algorithm.

And you know the beauty of that
sort of work is how can you

create an algorithm that has
enough, you know form to it and

definition that you can see.

You know 500 pieces, whatever
the number is, and go okay,

that's all the same algo, but at
the same time, you know,

provide that level of diversity
across it.

You know that's a very fine you
know fine tightrope to walk it

and that that is sort of the you
know the beauty of what that

that whole side of the house is
doing is.

You know it is a form of
simulation to some degree.

It's like how can I button this
thing up to the point that you

know it then can produce enough
identifiable iterations that you

know it keeps people engaged
but you know stands around the

same sort of you know, visual ID
, you know that it exists as its

own draft.

So, like I would say those.

You know we need people sort of
planting that level of

maximalism.

And you know just being
digitally native, being runtime

first, and you know like that's
a debate that slurs up every.

You know that's a.

That's a debate that slurs up
every.

You know three months or so
depending how you know itchy

people get is the the formalist
versus native schools in the gen

art branch.

And look, we all.

We need both.

Right like to to be, you know,
monolithic in our taste and our

values.

Isn't what, like working in a
prolificness network is about,

but like I fucking loved when
there's a vanguard willing to,

you know, take a position,
really embrace it and just push

forward, you know, with a lot of
confidence about what they're

doing, because that's how we
advance and progress.

And so to see that show, to
know that, know that they were

the ones who put it together
themselves, they were doing it

in a way that wanted to express
their shared values and what

they're working towards.

I just thought it was
incredibly inspiring and I will

say Crush was my favorite drop
last year by Andreas.

It was just amazing.

Speaker 2: I'm going to have to
look that up because I think I

was not around for that man.

Yeah, but yeah, I couldn't.

Yeah, it goes back to the very
you know kind of the first part

of our conversation around
thinking in black and white and

I think is, uh, that's probably
if I, if I had to nail down a

level of you know, uh, nail down
a feeling or put words to a

feeling, um was when I first
came here, was that that's the

way this felt.

This felt like, uh, in a world
that's just it's, it's kind of

trying to grapple with how fast
it's moving or people are trying

to grasp uh, grapple with how
fast it's moving.

And I think, if I'm just my
opinion of like that's kind of

why we've become a lot more, or
like why a lot of people are

trying to bucket things in black
and white and like this or that

, instead of like a kind of like
we were just talking about,

like an and or a permissionless
approach where it's there's a

lot of overlap, there's a lot of
different ways to think about

things.

There's a, there's an area
where both can exist and it goes

.

It goes back even further to
something I you know and, uh,

some people may cringe, and you
may cringe as well, but you know

, uh, I still found it really
valuable.

When I first started creating
content, Um, I was a big

consumptive.

I consumed a lot of Gary Vee,
you know, and like I still, uh,

it's easy to clown, you know, I
don't know a lot of people in

crypto have clowned him, but he
really introduced this thought

of like this is a big fucking
internet, you know, Um, and

there is enough.

There's enough for everybody
here, and it doesn't have to be

a zero sum game, Like there's a
lot of this or that and this is

a very, you know, it was a
dominant way of thinking for me

back 2017, 2018.

And I've kind of still carried
that through and that has

remained kind of timeless for me
, where it's like, you know,

it's real easy to want to go, to
want to draw like back, and you

know, to like, go back, to like
what's comfortable of like

trying to bucket something and
put a label on it and not

allowing it to be multifaceted
or not allowing multiple trains

of thought to happen at the same
time.

You know, and it's just
something that I think that you

know, as we evolve, there's been
a few things that have just

stood out for me, and this is
this is one of those where it

kind of challenges that you know
, just kind of that headstrong

nature of you know someone who
really believes in something and

it and it challenges me to to
to bust through that or shatter

the thinking of you know, uh,
someone who really believes in

something and it and it
challenges me to to to bust

through that, uh, or it
shattered the thinking of of you

know, um, you know, trying to
just be super simple, you know,

or trying to just be super
comfortable, because if I look

back at what great art is and
this is just coming from someone

who you know, uh, I became an
accidental art collector as a

result of spending so much time
here is that, when I visited a

lot of great museums and I've
learned more about art history,

is that a lot of like great art
really, it's at its core.

It helps you see the world in a
new way, you know, and that's

what I think that this does.

Do we want more of the same?

Do we want to just like clamor
about more of the same?

It definitely had, you know,
definitely had a lot of this art

definitely had its time.

But this, to me, introduces a
new way of looking at it, a new

way of seeing Um cause, to me,
like systems at systems is art.

If you would have told me, like
systems art and code-based art

is something that, like I would
be interested in, you know, even

just joining the space three
years ago, I would have told you

you're absolutely nuts.

You know um, and even my
parents, like you know, my mom's

, like I don't, I don't view
code as like art.

You know, and that's you know,
that's just her perspective.

I look, she looks at it very
differently, um, but I think

that, uh, yeah, the the
long-winded, roundabout way way

of making point is that to me,
this type of systems art is

helping people see, maybe kind
of what you know initially.

Going back to the thread of our
initial conversation around,

you know, constellation of
networks, you know it starts to

open people's mind into like,
okay, like, how does this help

us see the new world that we're
kind of like stumbling our way

into?

Speaker 1: If that makes sense.

It totally does Look.

We are constantly in search of
meaning, right Like that's what

it is to be human is to try to
make sense of the world.

And you know we operate on two
levels as human beings, right

Like there is the biological
self that is going to die, that

is basically unbounded by the
limitations of our biological

self, and we constantly live in
that duality of physically I can

only do certain things, but
mentally I can go all sorts of

places, only do certain things,
but mentally I can go all sorts

of places.

And you know that irreconcilable
difference of those two selves

leaves us constantly hunting for
meaning and constantly hunting

for new ways to relate to the
world.

You know such that we're always
like seeking out expansive

thoughts.

We're always seeking out new
ways of looking at the world.

And you know our openness to
what is new kind of depends on,

like, where we are.

You know generationally where
we are in our lives.

You know what's the importance
of meaning making and how do we

value that relative to all these
other things.

And so of course, your mom, you
know, is going to have a hard

time getting around programming
as art, but you who are in a

different stage of your life.

Like you're, you're more open
to that and it's great that it's

there to you know, plug into
that big brand of yours and and

munch around and say like, is
this something that I can, I can

make more sense of the world
with?

Because you know I need these
sort of um communal myths and

and pieces of cultural
importance that signify where we

are in a place in time and and
you know the sort of cosmic

trajectory we're, we're all on.

You know it helps.

You know evolution and progress
helps give some comfort to that

.

You know immortal, sacred self
to know like we're part of a

bigger thing and this bigger
thing is getting better every

day.

Speaker 2: Really like the way,
yeah, I really like the way you

put that um, kind of that cosmic
search.

You know, um, and I I look at
this as, like there there's

moments, you know, I think I
think in a lot of different ways

and I'll, uh, in a lot of
different ways.

You know, we're we're going
through a massive shift as a

species, just as a, as humans as
a whole, and I think there's

times where I'm like, fuck, I
really liked reading about

change in history books, you
know, but like, I don't

necessarily enjoy being a part
of the change sometimes, uh, but

then there's this aspect, you
know, that's usually the,

usually the, the, the
afterthought, but the most part

it's it's incredibly exciting to
be a part of a massive shift in

the way we're operating.

You know, like that, that
digital and physical self, it's

we're starting to become more
digital, we're starting to

unlock the mind a little bit
more, starting to unlock what's

really possible, how we view the
world, what makes sense, you

know, new ways of seeing and,
again, like it's, it's stressful

at times, but also, you know,
it's kind of really cool and I

think what really drove me it,
what it's what really excited me

about technology in the first
place.

You know I was.

I was the guy who bought, who
watched the first iPhone keynote

and went and stood in line and
paid $500, $600 for the 4

gigabyte, no 3G, no App Store
iPhone, and it was kind of this

like utopian feeling of like,
wow, the world's going to be

changing and this device is
going to change the world, and I

think it's safe to say that it
absolutely did.

Um, and I think that that's
really what we're on, like what

we're experiencing right now,
just in a way, in a much

different way.

Uh, financially, we're seeing,
you know, a new guard of, uh,

like you're seeing, like you
know, uh, a lot of wealth

transfer happening currently,
right now, with just the crypto

general, but also, you know,
immortalizing culture, uh, on

chain and being able to, um, you
know, not pan to.

I know we still do it as a
whole and it's something that I

think we we definitely, you know
, uh need to consistently be be

mindful of, but, like you know,
we don't have to pan to like

greater institutions.

As far as the art side to
become valuable, like you said a

lot earlier, is, like we,
there's enough people and

there's enough unity here that
we've created something so

valuable that institutions have
come to us.

Ultimately, you know, you look
at the Tashin book.

You know there's a lot that I'm
going to bring this up Cause I,

you know, uh, I bought it and I
fucking love it, but at the

same time, people I think were
missing out or looking at it in

a very weird way of like, oh,
we're looking for validation

from them and it's like I think
the really important thing is

that they saw what we were doing
and thought it was worth a good

use of their time and resources
to build a four foot about,

about what we've been building
here.

Uh, and Tashin's one of the
best, you know, the most

renowned publishers in the world
, um, you know.

So I think that's something
really cool that you know, while

we pander for attention from,
like Christie's or Sotheby's or

bigger institutions, like it's
easy, you know, like if you look

at the subtleties, it's like
these people have come to us,

you know, and that's kind of a
really cool thing to be a part

of, and I think people
oftentimes can miss that.

But there is a side of the
space that people do, you know,

still just seek and crave
validation from larger

institutions as a whole.

But it's really interesting, I
think, about this kind of we're

on the same beat here is I
really am curious like what, um,

the future kind of looks like,
with, you know, systems art

becoming more prevalent.

Um, you know, runtime art
becoming more prevalent.

You know what are.

You know, like, what are
museums going to look like, uh,

in the next, you know, five to
ten years?

Um, is are there.

You know, like, what are
museums going to look like in

the next, you know five to 10
years?

Is are there?

You know how will this work be
primarily consumed?

Will it be, you know, online,
through our browser?

And do we not just, do we just,
stop going to museums as much?

You know what type?

Is there a way to put this
culture into museums?

Is there a new way to like
build a museum?

And, if so, what would that
look like in the context of what

we're building here?

How do you make this physical?

But also, you know, how do you,
how do you physically show what

is happening here, and does
that even matter?

You know, cause I I'm of the,
I'm of the thought, like I I've

always been, you know, like I've
always just been an

experiential person where I, you
know you do things for the

experience, like art as an
experience is something really

new to me, and I think that's
what this really has opened up

is finding unique and fun ways
to like, interact with the art,

to become part of the art, and I
think that's what blockchain

and systems art has allowed
people to do.

And so I just I wonder, you
know, in the, in the era of, you

know, spatial computing that's
that's currently, that's

currently knocking on the door,
that's currently out what this

really looks like and what role
institutions play and does it?

You know, do they just end up?

Do we just end up fucking
building it ourselves, um, and

they come in or do?

Is there a way to?

Um, yeah, is there a way to
kind of build a new type of

museum?

I guess is the the through line
to this entire ramble?

Um, and something I've thought
about a lot yes, what?

Speaker 1: what is a museum?

I mean, you know, a museum is
an overlay, the same way the

radio is an overlay, right,
they're not going to go away,

they're not going to disappear.

Will their importance matter to
in the same way?

You know that it has in the
past?

I don't think so.

You know, museums by and large
are relatively recent phenomenon

, or at least the proliferation
of museums, right.

Like we need to go back to, at
least in America.

You know, the accumulation of
capital by the robber barons in

the late 19th century.

The reason, you know, we have
such a large museum culture here

in America is partially because
we had an inferiority complex

as a new nation to Europe.

But it's also because, you know
, people like Frick accumulated

just huge amounts of physical
objects, artuary, etc.

Etc.

And then they died and their
family didn't know what the heck

to do with this stuff.

Uh, you know, and so like,
let's not like, treat museums as

the sort of hallowed things
like you got to realize at a

certain point.

You know, in in, in the arc of
the ultra high net worth

individual, they discover that
philanthropy is a form of power

that you don't need more capital
.

What you need is influence,
networks, or you know you're on

what, like ernest becker calls
uh an imbracality project, where

you have a need to be
remembered, uh after after you

died.

And if you look around and you
know what were you known for?

Um, you know you were known for
I don't know.

You know consolidating the
supply and distribution of um.

You know industrial Coke used
to make steel.

That's not a great memory of
you.

You know industrial Coke used
to make steel.

That's not a great memory of
you.

You know that you crushed a
bunch of workers in Pennsylvania

and so you're going to build a
big, you know a big building

with stick your name on it and
fill it with things that you

know you found important.

And so, look, I'm not knocking
museums, right, but I'm also I

don't want to put them on the
same sort of pedestal other

people do, because, at the end
of the day, like these

institutions, you know, despite
what they say, their mission is,

despite what you know, the
values they project outwards.

At the same time, they were
formed for, you know personal

motivations.

They were formed for you know
maybe less knowable reasons.

It might be simply, I mean,
look at the Medici family at a

certain point, like you know,
who on earth wants to keep all

this stuff.

You know, I was in Florence over
the summer and it was such an

amazing last summer.

It was such an amazing city, I
absolutely loved it.

But, like, the sheer scope of
stuff floating around that city

is staggering.

I mean, how much artwork of the
Madonna was commissioned, you

know, between the years 1350 and
1620.

And a lot of this stuff, like
they had to dig up, you know it

was just found sitting in attics
or, you know, stuck in the

corner of warehouses for
generations until, you know,

some family member just got
really curious and started

rummaging around and then they,
you know, they realized, oh my

god, all this stuff, like what
the hell are we going to do with

it?

Speaker 2: and so, you know,
museums, um, certainly serve a

great purpose, but they're also
sort of fetishized object

collections that may have been a
little more accidental when you

actually get under the hood of
how these things came to be

that's a perspective I haven't
heard and appreciate you sharing

kind of the yeah, the history
behind that or like what, why

they were formed, and I, you
know, I I think a lot of things

though like there's a lot of,
there's a lot of things that

were never like a lot of things,
I think if I were to say, you

know, uh, there's a lot of
things that probably weren't

started by the best of
intentions, but becoming

something, you know, becoming
something, and but I really like

your perspective around, I just
I look at what really stuck out

to me.

There is just like putting
things on a pedestal, and I

think it's just human beings,
it's hard to not put things or

people or, you know, whatever we
enjoy on a pedestal.

It's really to not put things
or people or whatever we enjoy

on a pedestal.

It's really hard not to.

And I'm going to make the nerdy
movie reference and I'm sure

Fudgie will clown me for this
just because I've recently

become obsessed with cinema, and
I guess I've always have been,

but recently I've been going a
little crazy watching some of

these different movies.

But if you look at why Frank
Herbert createdune messiah and

all the other dune books, it's
because, like you know, on an

individual level, it's not
necessarily the best thing to uh

like idolize and worship a
messiah.

You know, like you can see the
consequences of of of that play

out in the second, you know the
second book, so I haven't read

the third one.

That's really that's actually
on my on my list right now.

But you know, the way Dune was
perceived is that Paul is this,

like you know, hero that was
propped up on a pedestal in the

Messiah that's going to bring,
you know, a paradise to Arrakis

Um, but in Messiah and and and
Dune, messiah, like you see a

very different side of that and
you really kind of see what

happened post drinking the water
of life and pre water life and

post His mindset completely
shifted into a less noble cause,

and so I think I look at that
to bring that back to what you

were saying is it's easy to kind
of put these institutions up on

a pedestal, but I really liked
the way you just kind of reduced

uh, museums to be like, yeah,
they just really wanted to to

find a way to be remembered to,
to be remembered by something,

and they were just kind of
realizing like they had too much

shit and wanted to figure out a
way to display it.

Um, I think that's really,
that's really fascinating.

So maybe I guess, if I'm
thinking here, you know the,

because the thing that I enjoy,
I guess, about museums is that

they provide a place to like be
quiet and think and learn and

like look at the past, and I
think that's really, you know,

as I mentioned a little earlier,
when I was walking through the

MoMA a couple NFT NYCs ago, that
was one thing that really stuck

out to me was just kind of
having a place to consume art

history, and it was really cool.

But again, I think the through
line to this conversation is

that it's great to appreciate
them, but it can be dangerous to

overhype, be dangerous to over,
uh, overhype them or put them

on too high of a pedestal, um,
because I guess the permit, you

know, the permissionless nature
of what we're building is kind

of, you know, it goes, it goes
against that ethos, um, it goes

completely against that Um, and
if I'm, if I'm, if I'm being

real honest and this is, uh, I
think we've seen a microcosm of

you know what people are, you
know what you had mentioned

there, of like, people want to
have something to be remembered

by and they wanted to slap their
name on a museum and slap, you

know, fill it with a bunch of
cultural objects that mean a lot

to them.

I think we've been seeing that a
lot with, like some of the

early, a lot of people's just
dialogue around a lot of the

early art blocks, collections
and them being like historical

and like over romanticizing it.

And you know, just that was
something that I learned in a

one, one, three space as well,
or just kind of.

I didn't necessarily learn, but
opened my perspective to was

like damn, like what are we
really celebrating here?

You know, like what?

Like it's not that this work
isn't important, but like what

are we?

What are we really celebrating
here?

And I think people who maybe
have a lack of um, what am I,

what am I going to call it?

A lack of, I guess, courage to
think a little different, to

break from the pack, to explore
a new way thinking, they just

want to find comfort, uh,
comfort and safety in some of

these digital objects that were
produced just about three years

ago, like two to three years ago
.

So I think you're kind of like
seeing a version of that play

out digitally as well when it
comes to people just hoarding

around these objects.

Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I don't
consider myself a collector.

I I think of myself as a
minimalist, as a piece around my

basement completely filled with
stuff.

But, um, you know, to exist is
to be like complicit in

contradiction.

So I'm gonna imagine I'm a
minimalist, as I, like you know,

walk through my like house that
you know it's got kids and a

wife and and pictures on the
wall and all that stuff.

But we're gonna pretend I'm the
guy who just has a mattress on

his polished concrete floor and
nothing else.

Um, but I'm, I don't consider
myself a collector, you know.

But now I probably have like
800, 900 NFTs God knows how many

, you know and I spend a lot of
my free time helping to build,

you know, the largest NFT
collection in the world.

And so it's a tricky one, right?

Because you talk out of one
side of your mouth and then you

look at your actions and you're
like, no, I'm an object

fetishist, but we have to
navigate through this world.

And so and part of that is the
stories we tell ourselves to

justify our actions and those
stories don't need to be

consistent.

We can be a whole spectrum of
behaviors.

We can consider ourselves, you
know, in an idealized world, to

be a minimalist.

And then you know, we I mean,
look, flamingo kind of sorted

out a lot of the early store of
value theory around digital

objects.

Right, we've helped craft a lot
of the narratives of the

importance of these things in
the space.

We've made a few particular
vibes.

Or we, we've taken some
editorial stances that canonize,

you know, the, the importance
of these things and the stories

people are telling themselves.

And so, like I'm certainly knee
deep in that whole thing, I

think the I don't know like I
always look at it first and

foremost as I'm a participant,
right, like I am here at a

moment in time that matters in
the space that I actually still

have agency and impact in, and
that's something unique and

special.

I can't influence politics in
the US.

I, you know I can somewhat
influence consumer behavior in

the prepaid wireless sector.

Right, it comes to like an
emerging culture or a way of

thinking, like this is one of
the few places right, just by

showing up every day expressing
my values, sharing my thoughts,

um, converting ethan to objects.

Right, like we all have, uh,
outsized impact as participants

in shaping the future of the
states and from that lens, it's

important for us to celebrate,
to lionize, like to build up a

communal myth around the
importance of these things,

because, even though we're
traveling from attention flow to

attention flow in network space
and we're jumping around,

jumping around, we do need to
lay down mile markers.

We do need to lay down points at
which, either we return to um,

because we can't live on the
bleeding edge constantly, we're

going to drop dead, right, we
need to return to things that

are comforting to us, but we
also need to lay the way for

other people as they come into
the space, right Like we are

building a bit of a network
museum, right Like a distributed

, decentralized set of stories
that exist, you know, across

main net, you know are starting
to exist in other chains, and we

need to be able to point people
to those things and we need to

give them context for what we,
as participants, chose to place

importance on at that moment in
time that's a yeah I that well

said.

Speaker 2: Um, yeah, it's.

I think you touched on a few of
you know, um, a few of a few

points of what we talked about
earlier around, um, kind of kind

of the kind of the challenge of
like being like building the

ship as you're or building the
plane as you're, flying it, um,

and not really knowing you know
what what piece goes where next,

uh, and kind of figuring that
out in real time.

It's exhausting.

So it makes sense to have, yeah
, I mean, and I I do it all the

time, like, I do it all the time
with, with things I fall back

on culturally, you know, I still
like, whether it's uh nostalgic

, whether it's yeah, whatever
stories I tell myself, like, I

uh again fall back to a lot of
those things to kind of find I

think that's really where cinema
has come, come played a big

role for me.

It's almost like a comfort zone
of like disconnecting and

disassociating with the space
for a little bit, just to like

get lost in a world, you know,
just to get lost in a story, um,

and I think we have moments
where we, where we can do that

Um, you know to, yeah, that
makes sense to to kind of like

help people have some points of
reference when they come in here

.

Uh, cause, everyone.

The reality is that, you know,
as the more, the older I get, is

that life is literally just a
bunch of stories.

You know, and and, and the
stories we tell ourselves are

incredibly important.

The stories are what's passed
down and the stories are what

makes something interesting and,
um, a horrific case.

You know, usually the stories
that we tell are some of the

ones that, um, you know, were
maybe a little bit outside of

the norm, um, that were a
surprise, that, um, yeah, that

were memorable, but at the end
of the day, it's all.

It's all just a bunch of
stories, uh, and that's really

what gives a lot of meaning, and
if we don't have that, then

there's no fucking point.

Um, so, very well said, uh, and
I, I really appreciate that

that point you just made there.

Um, I, we haven't even dude.

I, we haven't even dude, we
haven't even touched ai.

Uh, we haven't even touched the
convergence of, of ai.

It's all been product and and
blockchain and culture.

Uh, you know, and I recently,
um, it's kind of, is a mix of

all of those.

Uh, but your article, um, uh,
around around meme culture and

around ai uh tooling or like the
ad space and how the deck you

know, like Dex tools, is like
the current, you know, place to

find cultural memes and cultural
relevance and stores of value

and where these like
financialized narratives.

We haven't even really gone
there and maybe we don't, but

you know, one thing I wanted to
highlight on is you spend a lot

of time making music and you
recently produced yeah, you just

recently.

You're kind of diving headfirst
into that realm.

I would love to just kind of
maybe touch on that a bit of

like why you know what's the
curiosity for you to do that.

Is it just, you know, like
straight up, because you want to

like make music or like you've
never been able to before?

Is it scratching a certain itch
that you haven't been able to

scratch in a while?

Um, would just really love to
know, maybe, what you're

exploring in this realm of ai
music it was completely

accidental.

Speaker 1: Um, so we can start
with there.

I came to ai music the week of
christmas because I'm spending a

lot of time looking at how ai,
generative ai systems can be

used to enable networks, media,
long-form narrative storytelling

.

In a way that's native to what
we're actually doing and as part

of that it's exploring all the
various tools and it's also this

idea that text can exist as a
base layer that you can render

everything else on top of right.

And as ai gets more powerful
and has this ability to

transform layers of information
into these new views, right like

text will always sit there at
that bottom layer and then

you'll use what's in front of
you at that moment of time and

to transform that into a view.

And so, as part of that line of
thinking, I wanted to figure

out I have this world building
project called Starholder where

I do a log, speculative fiction,
and I'd say maybe a quarter to

a third of it I've written
myself, of it I've written

myself and the rest is all been
co-created with GPT.

Um, you know, through this
process of like guided prompting

, um, and you know free
association and kind of being a

little looser and faster and
being able to to hit a broader

canvas of ideas or work at a
faster pace than than writing

fiction.

Um, you know, in a traditional
way enables me to, and so I

wanted to render up one of my
stories into a video.

I wanted to see what that
transformation looked like and

you know, so I created this
chassis for storytelling.

You know, I rendered a bunch of
, you know, image sets in DALI,

I ran them in Runway to kind of
bring some motion into it and

then, you know, just use a
text-to-speech engine to do the

narration, uh, of the story.

And so I was in this ai
storytelling project and I got

to the point where I needed
music and I was like, oh, my god

, how am I gonna?

Um, but you know, we've been
following, uh, what's happening

over at dailiesxyz and AI short
form video for a while now, and

you know they're using it and
I'm like, okay, what tool are

they using?

They're using Suno.

All right, let me mess around
with Suno and see what it's like

.

And I just fell down the rabbit
hole, um, but it's like, and I

just fell down the rabbit hole,
um, and so you know, I spent.

My wife was out of the country,
uh, during that stretch.

She took her mom back home, um,
and so it was just, you know,

me, the kids, I had a lot of
free time at night and this is,

you know, what I got drawn into
Um and it.

It works in a more accessible
medium, you know, than fiction.

Um, it's funny because, you
know, I am a creator, I like to

make things, but the, the stuff
I, you know, I find more

fascinating isn't an easy medium
, um, for our space.

I don't deal in still images,
and so, you know, I have this

weird, um, weird thing where I
am a very creative and can be a

productive person at times but,
like, I do stuff that no one

really gives a shit about
because, um, it's not in like a

preferred form of speculation,
or you can't really consume it

in in five seconds.

Um, and you know, it's kind of
ironic that music sort of sits

in that same spot as well, like,
I guess that's just, you know,

either a unfortunate coincidence
or maybe it's, you know,

subconsciously intentional on my
part, but, um, I like being in

a relatively unexplored terrain.

I liked the sophistication of
the tooling, that it was

actually a lot further along
than I had any idea, and then it

is something that I don't have
to be very attenuated about

going into it, and that's a big
difference versus the visual

stuff because, you know, in a
past life I did run an in-house

creative agency amongst like a
bunch of other things I did.

But you know, that's like
selling telecom right, and so

producing posters, posters,
layouts, messaging, hierarchies,

um it it's a very sort of, you
know, strict approach and so, on

the visual side, I I tend to
have this like level of

specificity and what I'm looking
for.

That, um is a little hard with
the AI tools, but when I come to

something like music, I can
just flow and I can have so much

fun with that.

And you know it is writing like
I I'm not making music.

I'm having a conversation, you
know, with an AI engine in which

the words I write, you know,
get, get translated and

expressed into music and I can,
I can work quickly, I can cover

a bunch of different concepts,
but I can also just walk into it

kind of musically, knowing a
place I want to try to explore

but be a complete blank slate
otherwise, and I find that very

liberating and freeing and, um,
yeah, it's just something I like

to do at like 11, 30 at night,
when the rest of my house goes

to bed.

It's like, either I'm gonna
play around at pga 2k on my

playstation, yeah, I'm gonna
video game golf, I'm gonna make

music, um, but as I've like
spent more time with it, right,

like dude's joy, and being able
to put out product this quickly,

there's joy in being a
one-person creative shop that

delivers this level of polishing
, sophistication.

Um, it's incredibly freeing for
me because this is what I used

to do for a living.

Except I had to do it, you know
, in a way that justified costs,

right, I had to build and
design product.

I had to tell stories.

I had to do it, you know, in a
way that justified costs, right,

I had to build and design
product.

I had to tell stories.

I had to, um, you know, pay
designers and creatives to to do

all this, and so it all had to
be justified and really like to

me, part of this music thing and
I love music, by the way like

it's, you know I've, um, yeah,
I've always been around music.

I've got a huge working
knowledge of it, just from being

an old guy at this point um,
but to be able to, to combine,

like the fact that I do have
opinions, I do have taste.

I am looking for a certain thing
and I can kind of evaluate and

have enough confidence in what
I'm after, um, with, you know,

this set of tooling and the seed
with which it works.

Where I'm on a pace right now
where I can, um, I can make like

an eight track, 25 minute album
a week if I wanted to.

I've kind of figured out that's
like the right format, that's

the right sizing for me.

I was getting a little too big
earlier but if I can do, like

you know, eight to 10 songs that
you know I'll clock in at like

two and a half to three and a
half minutes, so you know, and

have a few that maybe are just
one minute and I can put

together this shorter form thing
.

I just I love it.

You know it's fun and that's
why I do it.

But I also do it because my
world needs music.

Right, I'm building a world of
star holder and, like I want to

fill it with a bunch of
different, you know, media types

and modalities, such that when
the time comes and the

technology is there, right,
we'll be able to pull all of

that into more immersive
experiences, you know, that are

multimodal, that are multimedia,
and so I'll have the soundtrack

to my own stories to you know
that you know anc might be

exploring in a simulation.

Um, I was literally about to go
there.

So part of this, yeah yeah, I
mean a lot of this is really

weird for me, because I do spend
a bunch of my creative time

essentially using machines to
make media for machined, not

entirely sure where that's going
to go, and knowing that

machines don't have the same set
of subjective values or joys

that we do and that, ultimately,
all of this is trying to create

something that humans will
appreciate.

It's not in a form yet where
people will be able to get their

heads around it, and so one of
the beauties of being

semi-retired spending half my
week in engaging ways in which I

can make some money is I get to
spend my other half of the week

just being really far out there
and doing things that that I

don't know, you know, get me out
of bed man, I really I, I

really, um, I can appreciate the
, the like.

Speaker 2: I love how you've
kind of found the, the.

I guess you're what really uh,
can you?

What you can really nail down
or what really brings you the

most joy is like the music part,
but it's a, it's a much, it's a

greater part of this, this
bigger picture, and I think

that's something that, um, it's
real easy to like get lost and I

I noticed that just what,
especially because I've spent a

lot of my time around creators
the past couple years and, um,

it's easy to like not want to
try new tools because the vision

of what you're trying to
execute is not like the tools

can't quite get it there just
yet.

But the way I look at this is
that, like the, the tools right

now are the worst they're going
to consistently be.

This is the worst it's ever
going to be right now, like it's

only going to exponentially
improve in.

The rate at which we've seen
this technology grow,

specifically around AI is just
is astronomical, and it's kind

of.

It makes my head hurt at times
to see how fast this has really

accelerated or how, yeah, just
how fast it's accelerated over

the past just six months to a
year and I can.

What this reminds me of is
there's a.

There is a talk that I went to
at South by Southwest here just

a couple days ago, and we're
kind of entering in this new

world where they basically
showed this 10 minute story that

they were telling and it was
produced by they hired this

creative agency.

There were some guys that were
using a lot of AI in the video

creation and the way they were
crafting the story.

Was one of the dudes who, like
I can't remember his name, but

he basically played a big role
in in the original lord of the

rings trilogy, uh, movie series
and, um, what I'm getting at

here is that I think that
outside of kind of like the

runtime art that we're
experiencing now, like what

people are going to be looking
for is like immersive

simulations and immersive
experiences, and like that's

like things where you can
interact with the world around

you in a lot of different ways.

Like you're creating the
soundtrack to the world you want

to, that you're that you're
creating and, uh, it means a lot

to you, but it but it also gels
with some of the writing.

Um, it gels with some of the
imagery.

It gels with some of the
imagery it gels with you know

what you're, what you're
currently building, uh, or with

the rest of what you're building
.

And it's what I picked up on is
that there's not just one thing

, it's a lot of different things
and you're your own.

You know, uh, creative studio
and um, I think people are gonna

want, in time I mean, this
might be a, I might just be, you

know, don't.

I don't know how right or wrong
this thought is, but it's just

what I believe it's that um, I
think people are going to want.

I think people are going to get
tired and jaded of, like some

of the speed of social media.

Um, I know, at least I am.

That's why I kind of seek
escapes, you know, um, through

different forms of art outside
of here, um, but I think people

are going to be want, uh, people
are going to want more

immersive worlds, um, especially
with, uh, you know, the Apple

vision pro coming out and I'm
sure a slew of products are

going to be built, you know, in
the next couple of years as a

result of that Um, because I
think it's slamming the door

wide open to, to what we're
about to um, or where we're

headed um, as a society, as a
species technologically, um, and

I think people are going to
want to um have different,

unique and interesting and
exciting ways to uh interact

with art.

And I think the, the TL, the,
the long.

The point I'm making is that
world building and story

building um are going to be um,
that's just like my prediction

of, like what we're going to be
most excited about.

Um, and I think that, you know,
while, not while right now we

have big clunky, you know, ski
goggle headsets, that um, that

are incredibly advanced um, it's
only going to get smaller and

better Uh, and people are going
to want to start craving more of

that, at least from what I've
seen um in the world that I

envision, um, you, you know,
especially as we go more and

more, yeah, digital um, and so I
can, really, you know, I, I, I

enjoy the fact that you just
find you like either you can

either play video games or you
can make music, uh, and I have a

friend that's in a very similar
but one of my, one of my

mentors I met a while back.

He does, does, he does a lot of
similar stuff.

He's been creating music with
AI and has absolutely been

geeking out about it and
bringing, finding new ways to

make new sounds and new and new
forms of media.

So yeah, long winded way of
saying like that's really

fucking cool and I and I can, I
can, I can respect and

appreciate that just like need
to live kind of like in the edge

of what most people aren't
really trying to consume just

yet yeah, look it's, it's how
I'm wired, it's where I like to

be.

Speaker 1: Um, you know, I I
work through kind of these

self-motivated processes of
discovery, and just how far out

on the information curve can I
get, you know, it's just that's

environments that are suited
really well for me.

But I also tend to think that I
have the ability to be two

weeks ahead of everyone, and
it's not always, it's not always

, it's not consistent.

I'm often, you know, I miss, I
miss shit all the time, right,

but I can get a hold of
something ahead of the curve and

I don't know if, you know, I'm
two weeks ahead of everyone or

if I'm a year ahead of everyone.

But like that, that kind of
like gets me by in life.

Um, you know, and and I'm glad
I live in interesting times

because you know it's an
advantage for me now, had I

lived in a different period of
time, right, maybe I wouldn't

have made it.

You know, maybe if I was part
of, like, the silent generation

post-world war ii, you know I
would have been the pain in the

ass that, uh, you know, couldn't
sit down and file their TPS

reports every day.

So, you know, I'm extremely
lucky and fortunate to be in

this situation.

But I also think it's important
work and it's something I do

believe deeply in.

You know, if I can get like
philosophical for a second, if I

can get like philosophical for
a second right, like you know,

there's a Hegelian dialectic
right.

Things swing from one side of
the pendulum to the other and

then, you know, they sort of
find consensus in the middle

ground.

That middle ground then becomes
, you know, the, the trad

consensus view that we then need
to react against and and that's

how we evolve right there
there's that basic concept, um.

But then you know, we can jump
over to mccluhan right and

mccluhan's thoughts on media and
how the tools shape us as much

as we shape the tools, and
realize that you know we're in

this very important period of
time that is tantamount to the

revolution that started with
Gutenberg's printing press.

I mean, if you look at what
Gutenberg did, he created the

situations for the Enlightenment
and for the elevation of the

self right that we used to live
prior to gutenberg, in this age

of communal oral myth that
didn't have any form of

ownership other than collective
ownership, by moving, you know,

towards books and into this form
of one-on-one communication of

ideas and like broadcast
communication in which you

couldn't push back at the author
, you just had to consume the

author.

Right, we've been living that
point like all the way up until

right now.

You know the idea that there's
only a handful of media

companies and they choose what
we can consume and we just sit

on a couch and passively consume
it.

Right, the beautiful thing
about being in this network

environment now is we have a, we
have an opportunity to upend

that whole, you know, dominant
media distribution narrative

from one of passive consumption
of scripted um, you know

scripted content and views into
something that's an active,

active participation and, like
shared group, unscripted telling

of our communal myth.

Right, we can both go backwards
into, like you know, an old

modality of, like tribal meaning
making, but we can do it in

this digital world where, like
we're you know, by this digital

world, where we're like we're,
you know, by operating digital

physics, we're not bounded by
those you know the sort of

constraints we used to have and
I think it's really important

that you know we're able to live
a public life of meaning making

.

You know Hannah Arendt talks
about this in the human

condition that you know, we have
a private life and we have a

public life like.

That's how the ancient greeks
ordered their world.

And, you know, in your private
life, you, you provided for your

biological needs, you took care
of your family and you tended

to whatever the business affairs
.

Right, yeah, you ran your farm,
your oil press, etc.

But when you were done with
that, or, more accurately, when

your slaves and your women were
done doing that work, that you

just kind of oversaw, you then
went out into a public life in

which you debated ideas, you
debated values, you formed the

meaning of your society, and we
don't have that secondary part

anymore.

Right like I can't walk out
into the town square and, you

know, change the fate of new
york city.

Yeah, um, but we can do that in
digital spaces, right like we,

we do have that ability in our
space and we just haven't gotten

to the point where we figured
out how to adapt long-form

narrative and communal
myth-making into that active

agency, open up that
accessibility to kind of tell

these communal stories, to, to
live out myths, and in which we

want to express agency in a way
that you know wasn't possible

before man that, yeah, I, I
didn't even really think about.

Speaker 2: I didn't really think
about that when it comes to, I

guess, before you know, before
the printing press, and kind of

how there was these, yeah, like
all the way back to the Greeks,

like even further back, that the
idea of two separate lives, you

know, and kind of how people
operated in those worlds.

And you know as much as, like,
guess, I, I as you know, oh,

granted, it's not like on on
chain, but, like you know, x is

primarily where the crypto space
, uh, lives and it's really

where, um, I've had a lot of
serendipitous, like moments

where I've met a lot of great
people like yourself, um, and

I've built, been able to build a
reputation on it, um, and kind

of, like you know, the the town
square of X is very, yeah, I

know they're trying to rebrand
it, they're trying to make it to

be the town square of the
internet where people can, I

guess, come to communicate ideas
, or people can come to share

that, and I think we're yeah,
you're right, I think we're in

the process of figuring that out
, because I think there's I mean

, I can't tell you the last time
I watched the news, you know,

like I can't tell you, the last
time I sat down and just

passively consumed that Uh, and
I stopped that a long time ago

because it just it was um, it
was, for it felt like more

entertainment versus actual
value that was being transmitted

.

You know, and I no-transcript,
but there has been a lot of

value in allowing people to
publish and allowing people to

speak their own minds and
allowing people to kind of have

that, and there has been.

It's not all bad, I guess is
the point I'm trying to make.

But I guess that's also what's
really exciting about both of

the forefronts in which we've
been talking about for the past

two hours narratives at a lot
different speeds and allowing us

to really explore a few new
ways of seeing creativity and

like what's possible between the
relationship between humans and

machines.

I've always kind of felt weird
for, you know, for thinking like

that, but even you know, back
back back before a lot of this

really came to fruition, I just
I always kind of felt like a

weirdo or an outcast of like
just being so enthralled with

technology or like having a
relation, a relationship to it

that a lot of other people
didn't and I feel like this

world is finally.

I didn't really feel like that
world was for me, like kind of

like what you were talking about
earlier, like I, I can't

imagine, uh, living in a
different day and age right now.

Like, there, there's there's
like with my interest in like

what I, you know, like what,
what makes me, what makes me

happy and what, what gets me out
of bed in the morning, like

there's no fucking way that, um,
I would have survived, like in,

you know, being like this age
and like, say, like the forties

and fifties, you know, um, there
, there's just absolutely no way

.

Um, and I think that it it lends
, it's easy to get overwhelmed

and I think it's easy to get, um
, you know, consumed with fear,

consumed with, you know, uh,
uncertainty around like, kind of

like walking through a societal
change, like we are, uh,

whether it's, you know, covid
kind of showing us that you know

, hey, like working from home is
still like working distributed,

you know, has its challenges,
but it's, it's pretty, it's

pretty efficient.

Um, you know, or the uh, or the
rise of digital communities that

we can form around tokenized
art or systems art and long-form

AI that allows us to just
unlock a new level of

relationship with computing that
I don't think we've really had

in the past before and I think
it just comes together in this

beautiful, chaotic messy.

Um, right now, the only really
place to truly consume a lot of

that is just through, you know,
through the blockchain and

through, uh, through Twitter,
you know, and through, uh, some

of the rest of these programs
like chat, gbt and um and some

of these other ones.

But, um, yeah, man, uh, I, I
think this is probably like a

great place to to end it, man,
um, we've been we've been

riffing for quite a long time
and this is, this has been a

great conversation, chris.

Speaker 1: No, thanks for having
me on.

This has been really fun.

Um, you know I love having the
opportunity maybe to blow out

some of these thoughts that you
know don't particularly

translate well on Twitter and no
one reads anymore.

So you know I'm not going to
spend like time, you know,

writing 20 page essays on stuff,
because you know I do enough

things that no one pays
attention to.

I don't need to do more.

And so I love having these sort
of forums where you know, maybe

someone at the gym you know,
because I guess some of the

stuff you know, maybe someone at
the gym you know, because I

guess some of the stuff you know
that's in my head that needs

unpacking a bit.

So thank you for having me.

Totally, man, yeah.

Speaker 2: I appreciate that,
yeah, and yeah, this has been

awesome and I it's very much.

Why I started this in the very
beginning is just to have

introduced a little nuance,
because I think twitter and you

know wherever other people you
know twitter and webcast always

a place where people are
spending their time.

I think it's just literally
where context goes to die.

You know, um, and uh, it's one
of the reasons I really enjoy

doing this.

So, um, appreciate you just
like riffing on on a lot of

these topics and I've, like I
said in the very beginning, I've

always admired uh, there are a
few people that pay attention to

what you write and I'm
definitely one of them Um,

because it's, uh, it's, it's
great that people are kind of

challenging, um status quo and
introducing new ways of thought

and, um, yeah, just literally
just a big fan boy of a lot of

what you do.

Um, so it's been, yeah, it's
been a treat to be able to, to

be able to sit down with you for
so long and and just unpack a

lot of what what's in your head.

Um, yeah, that's what I enjoy
doing.

So, um, I guess I'm going to do
a traditional podcast thing.

Um, I know you're a big you're.

You're a big book guy.

Um, is there any book?

Uh, right now, just whatever
comes to mind that you'd

recommend um, someone checking
out.

Speaker 1: Well, I am involved
in a year-long read of the power

broker by Robert Carrow right
now, which is the, the story of

Robert Moses and how he shaped a
New York City and the country

at large by really refashioning
our infrastructure, you know,

creating parklands, the reason
we have expressways, all of

these things.

He was an early mover and
shaker behind.

But it's also the story of
power, right Hence the title the

Power Broker.

Also the story of power, right,
hence the title, the Power

Broker and what that does to a
person and the impact of, you

know, a particular person's
locus of power on a large group

of people.

And so I'm about a third of the
way through.

My book club basically reads
100 pages a month.

The way through we are.

My book club basically reads
100 pages a month, gotcha, um,

and so so far it's absolutely
fantastic.

I mean, the writing in it is
phenomenal.

The, the history you learn from
it, uh, is really in depth, like

you know, even though it's
about robert moses, he was such

a central figure, um, you know,
across so many different things

that you know I'm learning about
Albert Smith, you know, early

governor of New York, and he was
this Tammany Hall guy right and

everyone expected him to be,
you know, like the Irish

immigrant machine and graft and
corruption, and you know he, he

ended up transcending that and
doing a lot of good and that's

how Robert Moses got wedged into
all of this is, you know,

albert Smith realized how useful
Moses could be in, you know,

achieving populist objectives
like creating a park system, you

know, and that political
symbiosis between the two.

And a spoiler alert, because
I've already been spoiled on

this fact but like moses is
gonna dump al smith overboard,

he's gonna hitch his wagon to
fdr for a little bit, he's gonna

shapeshift his way through
power.

And so you know, just being on
an epic read of that level and

how well written it is, I would
totally.

If anyone needs like a
1,200-page book, if anyone wants

to feel like you know, tackling
one of the, you know, the Moby

Dick of nonfiction.

Speaker 2: So far, so good man,
I may take you up on that,

because I just finished and I
didn't.

It was all an audio book, but I
listened to the book that the

Oppenheimer movie was based off
of.

I can't remember the exact
title of it, but that was a very

much a.

I think that was a 26 hour
audio book.

Speaker 1: Drive cross country
doing.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, I'm no
stranger to that.

I, I became just wildly
obsessed with that movie when it

came out, um, and just wanted
to consume every piece of media

that had anything to do with
oppenheimer.

Uh, last year, um, it was a big
, it was a big side quest of

mine as well, um, so, yeah, no,
I, I got that bookmarked.

Man, I appreciate that and
that's yeah, looks like a dense

read.

Let's see.

It's 1300 pages.

That's yeah, that'll take you
guys a while, um, so, um, well,

cool man, uh, I again, chris, I
appreciate you.

Is there any, uh, as far as
like, people that want to get in

contact with you?

Is there any place that you'd
have people go um and you sort

of like social media platform?

Speaker 1: yeah, just follow me
on twitter.

Sick, that's where I spend my
time.

I'm, uh, at chris f, underscore
zero x, though sick man, well

cool, look me up on the bird on
the um.

And then, you know, I pop up on
podcasts or you know all those

spaces that people ask me to.

But other than than that, you
know I I don't have a lot of

main character energy around me
at this point in my life.

I've been, I've been that guy
before.

I didn't really like who I was
when I was that person.

Now I'm this dude and so you
know, find me on Twitter and you

know, sometimes you get really
interesting, thought provoking

stuff and sometimes you get
nineties music.

Speaker 2: That's me I love that
dude.

Um, again appreciate your time,
chris and uh, hang out for just

a little bit while this
finishes uploading.

Um, but again appreciate you
for coming on.

You have a great yesterday yeah
, sure no problem.

Speaker 1: So you,