Speaker 1: This is Boone and
you're listening to Vaulted, a

Web3 podcast series from the
Schiller Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on November 26, 2021

and features GEO, the founder of
Axie Infinity.

In this episode, we discuss the
challenges and opportunities in

Web3 gaming, the advent of
community-centric models, the

potential for Web3 technologies
to reshape economies and work,

and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed Now.

It's time to grab some coffee
and dive in this conversation

with GEO.

Want to give you the
opportunity to give a brief

intro.

Mike, who are you?

What do you do?

Man?

Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, so I'm
GEO.

I'm a co-founder of Axie
Infinity in SkyMavis.

So, yeah, I'm a lifelong gamer,
a lifelong collector.

I grew up collecting insects
and fossils with my father.

I grew up playing games like
Starcraft, diablo, world of

Warcraft.

I got sent away actually to
boarding school because I was

playing so much WoW.

So, yeah, you know, I, with
Axie, I do a lot of the

community and economy related
stuff.

For those of you that aren't
familiar with Axie, axie is a

game that was designed to
introduce the world to crypto

and blockchain.

It's kind of similar to games
you might have grown up playing

like.

There are these digital pets.

They're cute, you can battle
them, you can collect them, you

can even breed them.

Axie is different from a
traditional game in that right,

like all of the game, assets and
items and resources come with

digital property rights, meaning
that you can sell them to

anyone anywhere in the world,
and there are these free markets

attached to the game.

Speaker 1: Gotcha man, and you
know I feel like a dunce for

doing this, but I realized it
like I called you John before.

It is just I apologize for that
man.

Yeah, dude, I enjoy that man.

So Axie was something that for
someone like me I joined the

Web3 community probably around
March February and March is

really around when I started
getting curious and this was

something that kept popping onto
my radar.

And as I was learning this, I
got just for your content, I got

onboarded through.

Beeple's massive sale was
something that we literally it's

what sparked my curiosity and,
diving down the rabbit hole

started looking at crypto art,
started looking at all these

other things and in the back of
my mind I said, man, what would

gaming in NFTs and this new,
like wild concept look like?

What would that be?

And then Axie Infinity came on
my radar.

I said this is, this is
fascinating, and I almost, I

almost like kicked myself for
not like getting involved when I

actually had had the Ethereum.

But I just didn't really quite
understand it.

You know, at the time, you know,
for the time being and I think

it's one of the blessings and
curses about Web3 is that like

it's so there's, it's almost
like shiny object syndrome like

it's.

Like there's so many different,
like cool things happening.

Like what do you know?

What do I even focus my
attention on, because there's

only so many hours during the
day, you know.

So want to want to go a little
bit further back.

Like what when it came to?

Like starting Axie when was
Axie officially started, you

know?

And like what was like the
process?

Like finding some of the people
that you're involved with today

, or like the I guess, the
founding team, if you will.

Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So Axie started in
2017.

So there are two guys that I
think you can kind of you know

they call the original founders
of Axie Infinity Trun and

Masmune, and so I actually had
met Trun through the

CryptoKitties community.

So a lot of the original Axie
players, community members, are

from from that, from the Axie or
from the CryptoKitties

community.

So, yeah, I actually I found
out about Axie, you know, in

March of 2018, I came in as a
community member.

I bought three Axies.

I thought it was super cute and
then, like a combination of very

like an actual clattable, with
also this utility aspect where

you could actually use it to
play in a game, it really made a

lot of sense to me.

So I, you know, but I found
that as a community member, I

bought three Axies and I started
to ask very like, okay, what do

we do now?

Like how do we get to the next
step?

So that's how, yeah, that's how
I found out about Axie, right,

I think.

And so it's always been a, you
know, a project where community

members are coming in and, you
know, materially contributing to

the future direction of the
project.

That's awesome, man.

Speaker 1: I mean, and so when?

So you went from.

So you had that's a really cool
story that I had no idea.

So you started as a community
member.

I mean, you started, you bought
a couple Axies, like you know,

contributed, worked your way up.

Like what did the?

When did it become?

Like less of, like a?

I want, I just want to play
Axie of like man, I want to be a

founder, I want to be play a
more important role, if you will

Sure.

Speaker 2: It was.

It was definitely a gradual
process, I think, but you know,

within two months of having
found out about Axie, I had

given my parents, given my dog,
way to my parents and moved to

Vietnam.

So so I was kind of like you
know, it was a gradual process,

but also I think I got like
pretty into it really quickly,

yeah.

So yeah, and I think that's
what happens with these Web3

rabbit holes, and I think Axie
is, I think, the largest of

these rabbit holes where I
thought that it was a really

special opportunity.

I was someone who grew up, you
know, I was grew up trying to

make money in games and was
always running into issues and

getting banned and having to get
to us violations and right, and

it was just like, okay, what if
there was a game that actually

encouraged the player on the
economy and right, instead of

trying to set up all these
roadblocks actively right

developed with this Yep?

So, yeah, you know, I thought
it was a huge opportunity.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

So I mean, was that what was
like playing Axie?

Was that like the primary
driver for you to like move to

Vietnam, or like?

Was it just like or was?

Speaker 2: that separate, to be
with the other two, with the

other, with the rest of the team
, right?

So Trung and I was talking
about earlier Airbnb.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Got it Okay,
that that makes a lot of sense.

I said that there's no way that
that was like coincidence.

I wanted to make it Wanted to
clarify that um, and I mean so

you went from community member
now you're now your founder,

like I mean.

So it took, like I've seen you
know, only for what I've seen

and some of the charts I've
looked at like it looks like a

lot of the most like explosive
growth from axi came really this

year, you know, in 2021.

So when it, you know, when it
comes to like, when it came to

the years prior to that, like,
you had it like 2017, that was

also around the time when, when
crypto punks were were were free

.

You know there wasn't really
any hype around it, but kind of

tell me like is.

And I Asked this question
because right now it's very easy

at least for someone like me
who just discovered about web3

and NFTs like To get into it
because there's so much

attention, there's so much
volume being traded and just

compared to the amount of
wallets is it's unbelievable the

dollar signs that are Flowing
through the system.

But in 2017 that obviously
wasn't the case, you know.

So I guess I I'm curious like
what kept you like, like what

were some of the small like wins
, that like kept the team moving

forward, like when there wasn't
as much attention as there was

today.

Speaker 2: If that makes sense,
I Think what we saw that was

very special were community
members stepping up and doing

amazing things, and Even one
actually was small.

We had this very passionate,
very loyal, very engaged and

creative community that was
doing amazing things and right.

So we, we thought, okay, it's
true, community members are

doing these things right,
getting tattoos and making music

videos, you know basically, you
know basically dedicating their

lives and, and you know,
spending Hours per day just

hanging out, chatting, giving
feedback, giving ideas.

Sure, sure, people are doing,
are disengaged when the

community is this small.

What would happen if we got to
this milestone?

So I think, I think that's what,
you know, gave us hope.

And it was also that we knew
that, okay, once we have battles

right, once we have scalable
infrastructure, and we're say,

it's still like that right,
there's still, yeah, it's still

so hard to get it, yeah, yeah,
we're always kind of like, okay,

this, this, and we have this
next Developing goal that will

unlock this Right and unlock
these types of new users.

Sure, and we're still, we're
still on that stage where, right

, we're working on Battles v2
and that will also allow anyone

to try axi or a try demo or with
freestarter axes.

Do you think that that's Unlock
huge, huge amounts of growth.

Speaker 1: Okay and all good,
yeah, I.

Speaker 2: Got y'all.

Good yeah, can you?

Can you just see me Sorry, yeah
, yeah, no, you're gonna find

our computer, um yeah.

Speaker 1: Gotcha man.

So and us, okay, okay, yeah,
cool, cool, cool, cool.

Sorry, I think so where we at
was, like you know, just, you're

consistent, like looking out,
like you know, some of the the

battle 2.0's are like looking
for newer ways to onboard.

You know when now, when it
comes to so, from my lens, you

know the way I see East, for I
want to shift directions a

little bit to eSports Is, you
know, the current model with

eSports?

It doesn't really look that
sustainable from the outside.

Looking in now, I'm not in the
financial meetings, I'm not in

you know a lot of like the inner
workings of, like what happens,

and there's very little about
eSports.

It's actually like shared, you
know knowledge or that's like

public knowledge.

When it comes Any sort of deals
like I think the last, the

biggest deal that I recognized
was TSM's, or, you know, ftx,

the, with the naming rights for
TSM.

But the problem that I see is
that eSports is not Sustainable

like it.

There's not really a
sustainable model like you have.

You have sponsorship revenue
which is dependent upon wins.

You have merch, like cool, you
have content, but all of those,

all of those you could argue,
are very volatile and there's

not much consistency to it and
so Do you see like, when it

comes to like web 3 gaming and
eSports, do you see games like

actually like changing that
model and flipping on its head?

I'm right, I just want to get
some of your thoughts about,

like what you envision, you know
, I guess, the next generation

of eSports to look like with web
3 technology.

Speaker 2: So I think what we're
doing with actually is we're

just, we're we're democratizing
eSports, we're making it, we're

creating a system where it's not
the earning is not constrained

to the top point one person and
right.

So we've created the system
where there are people, there

are right collectors, whales,
neculators, who right there,

trading their capital or right,
power, respect and time within

our economy.

Traditionally, when people want
to spend, like spend for those

reasons, that's all going to the
game developer.

But we basically created a
system where, when people are

spending yeah, when people are
spending within the ecosystem,

that is going to other members
of the ecosystem.

So it doesn't.

It's basically is creating a
system where eSports, right and

this and this ability to sustain
yourself by playing a game it's

not being, it's being
subsidized by spenders and

consumers, rather than right
just solely focusing on in

advertising or or merch and
things like that.

So this is a different model.

Okay, it's a.

It's a model where we, as the
game developers, are basically

sharing More of the of the
fruits of the ecosystem with our

community.

We think that it's also a good
business decision, because you

basically get a game that's much
larger than it would be if you

have a more closed economy, so
that this is the way that we're

thinking about it.

We also, we even within axi
right, we do have four minutes

and we do have sponsors, but the
cool thing is to we could we're

the primary sponsor Right where
we're getting away access

tokens.

Basically, access tokens are
kind of like little pieces of

our ecosystem and they're backed
by Right the fees and generated

by by the Indian got it.

So it's it's a new model and
it's it's quite experimental,

but we think that'll work.

And we were.

We were, I believe, sponsoring
around 50 Tournaments over the

next couple of months and the
Eastward scene is definitely

growing than axi, but it still
definitely early days.

Speaker 1: That's insane to me,
you know, because I look at, I

Mean there's a lot of, there's a
lot of publishers that that do

very little of that.

Like you'll see, publishers
Maybe they'll comp like plane

tickets for you know, for a
certain X percentage of the

teams, or they'll comp certain
parts of you know the travel for

these events and they'll
they'll put up the events but

not actually fully funding.

You know some of these teams or
sponsoring them in a big way

and I think that's massive.

Now Question you know when it?

Because we have like one thing I
have noticed it's been very odd

to me, but I'm starting to
learn more as I surfed Twitter a

little bit more is a lot of AAA
Game devs have this really

strong backlash Against web3.

Like there is, like it's almost
like they're just as passionate

against it as I would say a lot
like everyone, and my, I guess,

twitter sphere is passionate
for web3.

Like how do you see like a new
era of like game developers

playing with the current way it
is?

I mean, this just seems like a
massive undertaking, sure.

Speaker 2: I think that it
depends on Trailblazers like

SkyMavis to show the path
forward, to show the playbook.

There will always be some
people, I think, that are afraid

of new technologies, but I
think there are some people.

I think a healthy skepticism is
important.

I'm skeptical of a lot of NFT
projects and a lot of NFT games

that are coming out, but I think
it's a question around

education and having fun ways
for people to go down the rabbit

hole.

That's, in essence, what we're
building with.

Axie is a gamified rabbit hole
into the world of Web3, because

we understand that we didn't
understand Web3 until we started

actually breeding
crypto-kitties and feeling that

sense of ownership and seeing
what a community of Howard gave

Axie looked like.

I think that we need to show the
path forward.

We need to do a better job also
educating.

I also think that it's a new
way of building games and I

think it can be threatening to
people from the traditional path

.

I think that also, there are
some people who are purists and

that they think that games
should only be about fun for the

player.

I guess there's.

Obviously these developers are
making a lot of money from these

audiences.

I think for us, our goal is
that who's to say that we're the

only ones creating value in the
network that should be rewarded

with monetary value, and that
the creators, that are the

players that are creating value,
they should only be rewarded

with these types of value.

Capital is just one form of
value.

There are many forms of value.

It's to us.

We just see it as another
carrot that we can use in our

tool book.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean because,
I'll tell you, halo recently

just changed it for me because
it just released and I bought

the battle pass.

Since I came in here, I never
bought a weapon skin for a video

.

I'm a first person shooter guy.

I enjoy Call of Duty.

I grew up with Call of Duty,
grew up with Halo.

I started playing Valorant and I
started spending all this money

on Valorant skins I probably
spent close to $1,000, but it

dawned on me in this process
that I actually don't own these

assets.

I paid all this money for the
right to use them, but I can't

take them anywhere with me as a
gamer like that.

It started introducing a lot of
new trains of thoughts.

I see what Axie's doing and
it's got a thing.

I'm not sure what it's doing.

It's got its own model.

Then I look at first person
shooter games and I said what

does NFTs look like?

Or what does Web 3 look like?

When it comes to these massive
behemoth game publishers, can

they adapt?

How do they adapt?

What needs to be undone, what
needs to be implemented for them

to actually do it?

I'll tell you where I struggle a
lot with NFTs and I wanted to

get your take on this is that
there's a culture of Web 3 that

I really enjoy, that people are
accountable for their actions.

It's this self-custody culture
over.

I'm going to rely on someone
else to do something for me and

also take accountability when
something messes up.

I struggle with understanding
when and how to educate people.

It's like how much do I dangle
the carrot for them to go down

the rabbit hole versus how much
do I kind of coddle them as

they're entering towards the
rabbit hole.

You know what I mean.

I just don't want to tell
people all the answers.

I want them to find their own
way, because I believe genuinely

that they're going to find
their own niche, because they

found ways to go down the rabbit
hole that were meaningful to

them.

Speaker 2: Sure, I think when I
talk to people that are

interested in learning, I try to
think of myself as an

aggregator of the correct
information, or at least the

information that I've found to
be useful to myself, because

there's a lot of misinformation
out there around Web 3 if you're

just search learning through
Google searches.

Oftentimes I see myself as an
aggregator, where I'm like, hey,

this was helpful around my
thinking around this and

recommending articles, blogs,
youtube, great YouTubers, things

like that.

But I also think that this is
why Axi is so powerful is that

by playing Axi Infinity, you
learn how to right.

If you can just sell someone on
deciding to go down this path

of becoming an Axi player, you
then are actually also going to

teach them how to download a
digital wallet, acquire

cryptocurrency, even use a
decentralized exchange, provide

liquidity, learn about
impermanent loss, what is a

governance token.

I think that's also why Axi is
powerful is that it itself is a

school for crypto.

Speaker 1: Gotcha.

That's a pretty fun way to
learn.

In my opinion, that's a great
solution Because I've noticed

even with myself.

It's just like I stopped saying
NFTs or some of the common like

threatening buzzwords and I
just start talking about ways

that it benefits, like some of
the examples that it can

actually do, or some real life,
tangible things that are

actually meaningful to people.

Speaker 2: It's right.

This is really important for
founders.

When you're talking about your
product, we need to talk about

what are the benefits of Web3?

, what are the benefits of our
products?

Those are the ways that people
are going to get hooked and

you're like, okay, this is
something that I need to go and

get into People who are saying,
oh the friction, it was too

difficult.

These are people that are not
interested.

If that makes sense, you need
to catch their interest and

their attention before you ask
them to do all these crazy

things.

That's also why Axi is so
powerful, in my opinion, because

people read these headlines or
it's like right, and people are

making money playing a game.

This is a dream, right, this is
a dream come true.

It's like every kid proving
their mother wrong.

It has that mimetic aspect.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah,
absolutely, and you touched on a

really good point of, like it
were, a very headline driven

culture.

We're in this thing where I and
I'm guilty of it myself until I

tripped down this rabbit hole
and I came down Web3.

I was one of the people who,
just if it was of mild interest,

I would just read the headline
and I'd keep it moving.

But this has been the one thing
that's actually forced me to

actually read and I think that
is an incredibly important thing

of people.

It's weird.

It's like people who are.

I think you hit the nail on the
head with grabbing their

attention and then you can
explain it, because in the

beginning, I was like an
evangelist stumping everyone on

the head with this digital Bible
.

That was just like you need to
figure this out and you need to

understand this, understand it.

Telling people they need to do
something is just going to make

them run the opposite way.

You know like.

Yeah, sorry, I think I could
cut out there for just a second,

but yeah, I think that's a
great way to do that.

So, when it comes to like, this
is something that was really

fascinating.

So, as of right now, I know your
Discord has like reached the

max capacity, which is
absolutely fascinating.

Not many people have been able
to achieve that.

So Discord is currently closed
off, and what I also learned

from a Kevin Rose podcast where
he was interviewing one of the

people from it was a I can't
remember what it was called, but

it was from a some sort of
guild where they were literally

loaning out axes to onboard new
players.

Could you elaborate a little
bit more on that for, like,

people that maybe they were like
wanting to invest but they

don't really have the money to
invest?

500, you know to however much
it is now, you know of, however

however many theorem it takes to
get involved, just as a starter

pack, like.

Can you just elaborate on that
a little bit more, because I

found that that was like a
really fascinating way to

onboard people into this.

Speaker 2: So there is a system
called the scholarship system

where people who cannot afford
to play Axi Infinity, because

axes are in the hundred plus
dollars now each and you need

three of them, so axes are
basically expensive.

You need axes to play the.

Why are they expensive?

Well, it comes down to the fact
that you can actually earn

tokens of real value with them.

So axes became expensive and
then, you know, so the people

that could actually be helped by
this game were being priced out

.

And then these guilds, in many
cases, kind of rose to the

occasion where they started to
accumulate axes and then lend

them out to people who couldn't
afford them.

And these, right, the scholar
and the guild would agree to a

kind of a it's kind of like an
income sharing agreement where,

yeah, yeah, basically the guild
were earn a percentage of the

tokens earned by the scholar
while while using those axes.

So it was.

It was amazing.

It came from the community,
wasn't something that we

necessarily anticipated, but it
was a pretty good solution to

the issue of accessibility.

Also say that one of the issues
with this is that you still we,

there's still people who are
interested in Axi but are

insured that they want to go
right, like commit to right

someone's kind of you know,
scholar or it's kind of like

being almost like an employee or
something.

So, yeah, yeah, a little bit
intense for some people.

There are a lot of, you know
they want to try the game and

see if it's fun before they even
before they even buy their own

team.

So we're also working on an
upgraded battle system where

anyone will be able to try to
game with three free starter

axes.

They might not be able to earn,
but they'll kind of be able to

fall in love with the universe
mechanics before they make any

economic decisions.

Right now.

If you want, if even if you got
a team of axes and you have the

you know, $400 plus or whatever
, you have to figure out, okay,

what team do I want to buy and
how can and then?

So then you have to kind of
like watch YouTube, learn the

mechanics of the game right like
see what people are using in

the meta and before you make a
decision, right it's it's a

there are a lot of barriers, but
I think that's awesome because

we have 2.8 billion 2.8 million
players, even with all these

barriers.

what will happen when they're
progressively lowered?

Speaker 1: Dude and, and I can't
remember what country it was,

but I know it's one of the main
primary sources of income for an

entire country.

Speaker 2: It's just in the
Philippines.

The Philippines, yeah, I'm
quite large, so we have hundreds

of thousands of players in the
Philippines.

If not, that's insane.

Speaker 1: That's actually
insane, and so I just I'm almost

curious about like what that
does.

Like if you know, if a lot of
the people that are normally in

traditional labor in the
Philippines are now playing a

video game and making a way
healthier living, like what that

actually?

Like what that actually does to
the Philippines like economy,

like does it?

Are they struggling for workers
?

Are they like raising wages?

Are they doing this because it
scratches on a lot, a lot larger

of a problem.

Like they're not, I guess, not
larger of a problem, but just a

larger, I guess, topic of like
what does that actually do to an

entire country's impact?

And I, I just imagine that
y'all didn't have that in mind

when you started this either.

Speaker 2: Right, Well, I think
a lot of the people who are

being helped by this.

They're unemployed or
underemployed and I think, okay,

right, initially right.

We're dealing with automation
and the consequences of

automation, where a robot, sir
right, coming for the jobs and

destroying a lot of jobs and a
lot of physical jobs are being

destroyed through the pandemic
and never returning.

So right, I think, actually is
helping the people who have

basically been automated away
from labor.

So I think it's an answer to
what is the future work look

like now in a kind of a post
industrial society.

Speaker 1: I wrote that, yeah, I
mean that, yeah, because it's

I've all.

I've also had that.

I've also had that curiosity of
like what is this, like, what

does that mean?

Because I know, even here in
the States, like you're seeing a

lot of the same things, like
people got priced out especially

the food industry is really
tough, a lot of jobs.

You really found what was
completely what was relevant,

what was irrelevant.

For a lot of corporate workers,
you know, like myself, it was a

very good benefit.

Like there was a lot of things
that came from, came to the

corporate environment with a lot
more flexibility, working

remotely, but there's an entire
subset of the country that felt

the burn a lot deeper or a lot
more than we did.

So I find that really insane.

Because I also see that even
with, like, fast food

restaurants, like they can't
hardly hire anybody, you know,

like they can't you know, in
this post, covid, you know

system, like they can't hire
enough people because they're

making more money, you know, not
working there than they were,

you know, with a regular
corporate job.

I just find that incredibly
like I find that incredibly

fascinating.

So one of the one of the switch
gears a little bit as well, like

you know?

What do you?

You know?

I guess I want to talk about
some like personal interest of

yours, like what I know.

You said you were skeptical of
some NFT projects, like what is

something that, like, you're
looking into, or like something

that is your, some things that,
like you're like, are a big

favorite of yours.

You know, whether it's gaming,
whether it's PFS, whether it's

just art in general, I'm always
like to take it all over the

collector side of people on here
.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you
know so I'm super excited about

social coordination tools.

So right now, we have a lot of.

Finally, we have adoption,
where we actually have large

communities, and it's like, okay
, how do we make sure that we're

identifying people who want to
contribute and creating ways to

scientifically reward them?

And how do we maintain a tight
knit culture in the community

when we have millions of people
rather than tens of thousands?

It's kind of easy to have a
tight knit community when there

are a couple hundred people on
Riser, but, yeah, it's much

easier.

And how do you scale while also
being remaining special?

So that might not be
necessarily.

Yeah, so I'm excited about
products that solve things like

that.

Like, we just did a collab land
integration within the ACI,

discord, and then this basically
allows people to claim a role

on Discord based on the tokens
that they're holding in their

wallet.

So for me, that's something
like super, super cool.

Yeah, I mean I'm, in terms of
the rest of crypto, like I mean

I don't have too much time to
look at other stuff and I'm wary

of recommending other projects
in case, right, people, people

kind of like care a lot about
what I, what I say.

But you know I, you know, I'm,
I'm, I'm, I'm, you know I'm on

lookout.

I've been looking and I've been
investing and looking at, like

ACI guilds, for example, and
metavert, gotcha that's been,

that's been really cool and I'm
still thinking about, like, what

is the future, what?

What does the next generation
of NFT games look like?

What will will?

Will they be successful?

Will they be coming next year?

Will they be coming two or
three years or even further out?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you
bring up a good point because,

like it's for for people who've
never built a game, and there's

all these NFT, you know, pfp
projects launching and you're

just like, yeah, we're going to
have this game, it's going to be

a part of this roadmap.

And you know, like like we both
know that, like you probably

know a lot more than me, but you
know, I at least see from the

outside that, like making a game
is really really tough.

Like it is, it is one of the
hardest and it's it's one of the

hardest and riskiest things to
do.

You know it's now, it's a very
appreciated art form, but it

takes a lot of risk and a lot of
know-how and a lot of grit to

like figure that out.

So I'm, you know, unless like a
game is like has a like a huge

market cap and there's like all
these active users onboarding,

it's hard for me to really get
down with like what does Web 3

games look like?

Because I know, out of all the
projects, like probably 99% of

these people that are going to
be making a game as part of

their PFP project are going to
fail.

I'm because they've never built
the game before.

You know, and some of them may
just get really lucky and it may

.

Things may just click and they
may have the technical know-how

or know the right people to
bring on board as the project

grows, you know, but I guess,
when it comes to the different

ecosystems, this is very, really
what I wanted to touch on.

You know, you have, actually,
which is built on Ethereum.

Now I've been seeing a lot of
games with that are being built

on, like Unreal Engine being
powered on the Solana blockchain

, like is there, like I wanted
to, because we're talking about,

like, the future of, like Web 3
gaming what is your thoughts on

, like, some of the Solana
blockchain gaming, like, because

I've been very curious about
that but I haven't really had

enough time to, I guess, go deep
down the rabbit hole, but it

seems like both of them can
coexist.

But do you, what's your, I
guess, what's your overall vibe

on that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they
have a lot to prove.

I'm almost tempted to wait for
the next bear market before I

start to figure out, like you
know, who I think of the next

generation of games are gonna do
well.

So it's like I'm almost tempted
to just wait and wait for the

bear market.

Hopefully it comes, hopefully.

You know I'm not going to
predict one, but you know I also

don't need to necessarily have.

You know I'm not forced to
invest and or have an opinion on

any of them.

So so I might say that right
now it's too difficult to know,

because it's a different market
environment where people are

kind of it's just too easy right
now and historically that's not

necessarily been a good time to
make concentrated bets or

opinions on stuff.

So, yeah, I'll also say yeah,
so with Axi, right, even we so

with Ronin.

So we have built our own side
chain scaling solution called

Ronin.

So it's a NFT scaling solution
for Ethereum.

We built it specifically for
Axi.

We also want to onboard other
games and other IP onto Ronin.

It's quite difficult to get at
it even right now.

Yeah, okay, it's difficult to
figure out.

You know who's for real, who's
going to keep building during

your rough times, during tough
times.

So yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1: So, like you're
wanting that, like, so it's a

side chain that you're wanting
to onboard more IP, would it be

under the Axi umbrella?

Would it be like would you
basically be bringing on a whole

another like just group of
developers to build that and

what would be the real?

I guess what would the
relationship be like with Axi?

Speaker 2: If you can share, I
mean I think there's potential

to to bring developers will
build on top of Axi and you know

great conditional utilities
through new experiences.

There's also right.

There's a chance for us to
become the Nintendo or the Eden,

the Epic Games right of this,
of NFTs, where you know we bring

another IP and act as a
distribution channel for them.

Speaker 1: Gotcha, gotcha, I
guess.

So you know we it's great to
see that Epic, I know, was at

least a little bit curious about
NFTs and Web3.

I know I've seen like they
haven't made like an official

stance but another CEO is like
he has some healthy skepticism

and he's he's been on board but
he also has some very big

concerns, you know, when it
comes to being like a

distribution network, like how
would the Web3, you know,

version of a distribution
platform would be different from

, like Steam or Epic right now?

Speaker 2: Sure, so, for in
order to make an NFT game,

there's a lot of stuff that's
required, right?

You need a scalable blockchain
wallet marketplace.

Right?

There's all this plumbing and
infrastructure.

So we basically and then
there's also the community

aspect.

So we believe that Ronin will
be the number one place to

launch a game, because you get
all the stuff that we had to

build for Axi.

You get that right, and you
know that it works because it's

working for Axi, whereas nothing
else is really battle tested.

Or even we have our own Katana.

We have our own decentralized
exchange now, right?

So it's like we get all this
stuff because we're we figured

out what we needed for Axi and
then built it out.

We believe that these
components are going to be

needed for all other NFT games
as well.

So, yeah, that's you know the
idea is to have, and then also

you get access to our community,
which is the largest it's you

know it's larger than anything
else out there.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's insane.

And now that sounds like it's
like you hit the nail on the

head there.

That's awesome, man.

Well, you know, wanted to.

You know, outside of some of
the stuff that we had discussed.

You know what is some of the
like?

And I asked this question it's
almost like a loaded question.

But I was actually listening to
a podcast and they were talking

about when the Mac was like
first invented.

It was like their idea of the
future was literally like people

coding recipes or like entering
like cookbook recipes into

their Macintosh and that was
like the most innovative thing

at the time that they could
think of.

I say that with the context of,
like you know, we haven't really

been able to discover what Web
3 really has to offer.

I feel like we're seeing some
of the benefits.

It's solving some immediate
pains, a lot of immediate

problems.

But I want to get a little bit
into imagination land.

But you know, what do you see
as far as like axiom, like the

next 10 years, like where would
you want to see that?

And I know, in crypto that's
basically like 100 years.

Speaker 2: So definitely, I
think the eventual, the eventual

implications of this is that,
okay, if you can create deep

social, economic relationships
with anyone anywhere in the

world, you start to see yourself
as part of this community.

Right, this community also has
culture and entertainment built

into it.

You start to have all the
building blocks of a real nation

.

So we call, often called axi, a
digital nation.

Now governments are not
starting to reach out to us and

you know, and even politicians
are starting to get interested.

This is almost right, like we
have our own.

We're kind of almost.

I think in the future we have
this potential where we may be

signing treaties with
governments, we may be acquiring

land in the physical world.

Governments may be even begging
us to buy land in the physical

world from them as they go
bankrupt, from, you know,

sovereign debt crises which can
be brewing.

So I think that this is
something that can become far

more than a game.

This is a community that can
become quite powerful in the

real world.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's
a thought, but it's also like a

fear of like.

It's also a like.

A strange fear that I've had is
, like you know, when it comes

to economic crises, like of like
, you know, no supply caps, just

consistently printing money,
never solving the actual debt

problem, you know what would
actually.

It's almost a terrifying.

It's like I'm excited but also
equally terrified at that

thought, you know, because it's
a very large scale of like, wow,

like this is what we've
depended on our entire life, and

but when it comes to the future
of like web3, like, say that

were to happen, you know, say
that like a catastrophe.

Economic catastrophe happened
globally when it came to our

current Dollar system or our
current currency, I See actually

being a main player.

What other players do you see?

That is it just?

Is it just like a decentralized
network of All of this

cryptocurrency?

Is that like the only currency?

Or there are other Projects
like yours or other, I guess,

communities like yours that play
an important role in sustaining

that, because, like, it's like
okay, where's sustainability

when that happens?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So what we're seeing right is
we're seeing people losing trust

in, in, like large institutions
, large central institutions, so

that can be government.

That also means Facebook, apple
, netflix, google, amazon.

Right, people are losing trust
in these large, centralized

institutions and this creates a
need for Different types of

communities and different types
of support structures and

networks and they they can be
different.

It can be difficult, it's gonna
be a shaky transition.

It's kind of like, right,
joseph Schumpeter's creative

destruction, yeah, but this is,
I think it's the it's.

It's just a path that I see is
almost inevitable and you know

that.

So I will used to.

I used to be someone who wanted
to be, you know, I wanted to

become a politician or a central
banker to try and fix the cist

break, and then I realized that
I would not gonna not gonna be

able to do that, and then I just
started.

I started figuring out what is
the next move, and I think

people are, throughout the world
, having this realization and

they will be having this
realization over the next 10

years.

And but what I will say is that
Hopefully, and I think right,

like these decentralized
communities, these web3

communities, I think they offer
an alternative right, a system

of structure and support, even
In a world where the things that

we are traditionally relying on
are breaking down.

And I think it's it's, it's it
potentially right, something

that I mean means that, even if
right, even if those things Kind

of collapse, will still have
Some form of stability.

Speaker 1: Gotcha, yeah, because
I, when you, when you say

something like that, it makes me
wonder, like, what is?

Because, like I, it's the irony
of web3 is funny, because I,

we're building the plane, as
we're flying it, um, but yet

we're building it.

But our entire community is on
twitter, you know, um, you know,

like, like, everything is still
all of these, like, we're on an

eye.

I'm like, I use an iphone, um,
I have air pods, I have all the.

All of these are created from
central, from central, uh

companies, and so I guess it
just begs the question of, like,

what does that look like in
web3?

You know, and I haven't even
really thought of that, it's

just something that when you
mentioned it, it popped into my

head of what is a?

I guess, what does a bottoms up
amazon look like?

Or a bottoms up apple look like
?

You know, is that even gonna
happen in a time where we're

alive?

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: That's true.

I think the low hanging fruit
is around Industries, where

there are very strong
communities and there are large,

the middlemen, that are
extracting huge fees.

Um, so I think that's why it's
like gaming, uh, I think fits

that requirement quite well and
music fits out requirement quite

well.

You're like hardware and stuff
like that.

It's like it, it's, it's.

It's maybe a little bit further
off.

Speaker 1: Yeah, because I still
look at, you know, I've I've

constantly had the thought of
like, do I want to fully

decentralized world?

You know it's like, do I want
everything to?

It's like because there is some
central like benefits that,

like, I really do enjoy.

You know, like it's like Maybe,
like I guess, for my personal

opinion, like maybe I don't
really want to push for a fully,

I don't know if I want that,
you know, um, because that is

almost that is terrifying when
we get to enjoy.

There's a lot of cool things
that are being created by great

companies, you know and not, but
I would agree with you for the

most part, it is a very large
level of distrust in the way

decisions are made.

Um, as I just thought of that,
because, yes, it's so, games,

music, you know, and just
honestly, artists in general.

You know we've been seeing this
massive like wave of Wow,

artists are now getting paid, um
, and they just have, they get

to make their work once and they
could continually make money

off that work for the rest of
their life.

Um, I think that's a
fascinating, you know, a

fascinating bridge that we've
really crossed here.

You know, but want to want to
start wrapping things up.

I know, I know we had about a 30
minute block and we've gone

over.

So, uh, you know, jeff, I do
want to thank you for coming on,

man, and when it comes to I
always like to give, uh, give

the spotlight to you one more
time at the end.

There's any sort of advice for
someone that's coming into axi,

um, wanting to build their own
game, any sort of like nugget

that, like you've learned when
you created this in 2017, that

you'd like to share?

Speaker 2: I think that this is
a space where you need a high

level conviction and you need to
have really good habits where

we're not gonna know you can't
really tell they're from

initially just finding a project
whether it's gonna do well, or

you can't even know that about
yourself, right, um.

But I think that what we want
one thing that we need more of

and in web3, is we need people
with, like amazing habits who,

just right, will show up day
after day, regardless of market

conditions.

I think that's what axi axi is
a testament to that.

Where are we literally?

We built it was an overnight
success four years into making

um.

That's right.

So, yeah, I think, like what
I'll say is rig.

Now, it's like you know, the
market conditions recently have

been so good.

We kind of we forget the
necessity to show up every day

and to be consistent, and that
good things take really long

time to really long time to
marry me.

Speaker 1: So yeah, I, I love
that and it's to me it's the

hardest transition from web2 to
web3, because web2 were so

polished and it's mature and
things are just A lot of things

have happened just like
instantaneously and people have

found a lot of like viral
success or a lot of the meme

culture and, um, while that's
great it to me it just destroys

Um like human, like number one,
like human innovation, and it

destroys like a lot of Like
personal growth that needs to be

had before you can really
achieve some of these levels.

Um, you know, but Again, I want
to thank you for coming on.

If you want people to Uh follow
you, you know where's some of

the, where's the best place if
they want to get in contact with

you I'm getting contact with
some of your team what's the

best place really to find you?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can find
me on twitter at g hoes

underscore axi.

It's like jih oz underscore axi
, underscore axi.

Yeah, come to the axi discord.

Uh, discordgg slash axi.

We've prune it from time to
time, uh, step or maybe slots

open.

Um, yeah, you know there's,
there's a lot of.

There are a lot of awesome
youtubers, axi youtubers and

content creators.

Uh, both and and and.

Twitch streamers.

Uh, I think that's one of the
awesome things about axi is

there's all this kind of you Uh
content out there.

So if you want to learn more,
uh, they do a pretty good job.

Speaker 1: Awesome man.

Well, hey, again, it's been a
pleasure having you on.

Um, I'll let you get back to it
and hopefully let's get some

rest.

Man, all right, thanks.

Thanks for having me,
absolutely.

Thank you for listening to the
shillard vaulted podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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