Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to Vaulted, a Web3

podcast series from the Schiller
Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on October 8, 2021.

In features Michael Tant,
co-founder and general partner

of CitizenX Crypto, which is a
crypto-native investment fund.

In this episode, we dove deep
into the concept of pseudonymity

, the glaring opportunity for
gaming to adopt Web3 technology,

the promising future of DAOs
and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
to discuss.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this comfy

conversation with Michael.

All right.

Speaker 2: Good afternoon
Michael.

How are you?

Kyle, I am doing great.

My friends it is.

I just got back in town.

I was traveling out west coast
of California all last week.

I got to spend some time over
the weekend in Paso, Did a lot

of wine country stuff, so drank
a lot of good wine, got a lot of

good food, got to connect with
some friends in the industry and

, yeah, I'm doing pretty well,
just trying to get back on the

swing of things, recovering.

Speaker 1: Yeah, how does it
feel to catch up on missing like

three to four days out of the
line?

It was good to do this.

Speaker 2: I brought a wallet
that I needed in case I needed

to do anything.

I spent maybe like 30 minutes
with like one particular NFT

thing that I was working to buy
or sell.

I meant to the projects I
really wanted to mint.

But then, but outside of that,
like even scrolling on Twitter,

you know, every couple hours I
feel like I missed an entire

cultural revolution.

I missed almost all of the loot
blue, a-bold, you know, almost

100% of that Totally missed it.

I missed every iteration of it,
all the revolutions of it.

You know even my friends in
multi-coin buying.

You know eight figures of loot.

Like it was crazy.

It was.

I truly like yeah, I'm grateful
that the market seems to have

slowed down a little bit in NFTs
right now, because it's kind of

a catch up on what I missed,
but it is.

I'm not saying that I regret
taking the vacation or traveling

, but it is.

It does demonstrate to you that
in a market like this, there is

a high opportunity cost for not
participating and that when you

have an opportunity like this,
which is a golden opportunity in

terms of you know how hot
everything is, how much volume

there is, how many people are
buying and selling like you got

to take advantage of it, and
I've learned that you need to

strike while the iron is hot,
because when the iron is not hot

, it is cold, and it is cold for
a much longer time than you

think it's going to be, and
probably that you'd like it to

be right Like this.

I mean, I think I have in my
Twitter bio, like NFTs are here

to stay and I do believe they're
here to stay, but this market

that we are in right now with
NFTs is not here to stay.

It will mature, it will slow
down.

There, will you know, there
will not be 100 mints that sell

out every day, you know, and
instantly, 10x overnight in

terms of, like, floor growth.

That's not going to happen
forever.

So, while you're here, make hay
while the sun is shining, just,

you want to be careful that you
know when the music stops, that

you have a seat and you have a
chair and that you're prepared

for you know, but personally and
from like, an investor

perspective, prepared to
capitalize on what is going to

be a potential bear market.

And I know that's very generic
advice and I don't really like.

I don't really like generic
advice.

I don't think that most people
that say oh, you know, this is

all a mania.

This is a bubble is like super,
super helpful.

Most of the time, no, unless
the advice is like super nuanced

, but yeah, but I agree with you
that the market feels a little

bit frothy and yeah, yeah, so
anyway, it's, it's and it's a

weird.

Speaker 1: it's a weird spot for
me to enter in because, you

know, I just I'm at a point
where I just started a new

career.

I started a new, a new job on
Monday, you know is where I'm

able to finally get myself to a
level of financial like

stability where I'm actually
able to pay off all my debt.

So I don't really have a whole
lot of cash just to like throw

at things right now, which is
it's.

It's like a sick joke, right,
because this is the time to do

it, but I I can't, you know.

So it's almost like this weird
like thing of like you just need

to learn.

Yeah, I mean, you throw in what
you can like invest here, like

where you can, and do the things
that you love, but it's really

forcing me to like ask some
really type of what is it that I

actually like, what is it that
I am willing to spend this money

on, what is it that like I feel
will be long term?

Because, like, I'll tell you,
like what I've learned from

myself so far is that I am
terrible at predicting the hot

like 10, 20, 50, x, like two day
, you know, projects that sell

out.

But I genuinely believe and I
have yet to prove this, I could

be completely wrong, but I
genuinely believe that, like

some of the projects I've
invested in are going to, are

going to like, are going to
catch fire in about, you know,

one to three years, you know
that's my bet.

I've always been good at that.

I've always been good at
predicting patience, and so and

like listen, yeah, that's a
listen.

Speaker 2: In my opinion, that's
a better skill set to have.

In then, and they're different
skill sets.

I'm not much of a creator
myself, right, like I have a.

I have a rudimentary
understanding of of charts.

I did some trading at some
point, I dabbled in it, but I'm

much better as a long term
investor than I am as a trader,

and my advice to you on this
would be if you're coming into

this space brand new like you
said you entered in March you're

at a point where you don't have
, you know, tons of capital that

you that you made from the last
crypto bull run to throw right.

Like you don't have hundreds of
Ethereum that you can just

throw it in a project.

Like that's right, yeah, which
is crazy, that's not uncommon

for people to have, right.

But if you're in that position,
I think you have the exact, I

think you have the perfect
mindset and mentality about it

in that take the opportunity to
learn.

Bull markets like the one that,
like the one that we're entering

me for NFTs, probably for those
a whole like they accelerate

every, every move is accelerated
100x, and so you learn so much

by participating, being patient,
being involved in those markets

and you learn.

You know you learn by, to a non
insignificant extent, a much

greater amount by participating
in those markets than you do in

bearish markets.

And what I mean by that is you
learn more about how markets

work in bull markets.

But bear markets are
opportunities for you to

actually allocate capital in a
way that's going to be most

optimized for for, you know, for
long term.

And that's not to say that if
you invest in the bull cycle,

like you're going to do poorly,
that's not the point.

But the point is there's a lot
of people that are flipping that

, a lot of people that are
trading, a lot of people that

are throwing capital in NFTs
right now to sort of make money

right now, and a lot of them
will get burned, you know, in

the long term.

So I don't think it's bad, I
think you're, I think you have

the right philosophy and think
of the right perspective.

Make those one to three year
bets and then be prepared to

make even more one to three year
bets when the market is not as

hot and in the markets more
mature.

Speaker 1: There's actually some
things that I like there's.

There's so many projects that
are like so out of reach right

now for me, but like like
there's been a few people that

have commented on the bear
market, you know, and it's just

like and I'm like, honestly, I
can't wait for that to happen,

number one, so I can have this
FOMO, just like completely leave

me.

You know, it's like I can get
some rest, I can focus on a lot

of other things in life.

Speaker 2: It's, it's, it's
truly, it's truly cool.

It is fucking honestly.

Speaker 1: It is.

It is like you can't even enjoy
a full vacation, you know, in

California, which is one of the
most beautiful places to go on

vacation to, without thinking
about JPEGs, right, and because

I look at that, I'm like this
this will be my time.

I think by the time that bear
market comes, like I'll have you

squash a lot of my debt, I'll
have a little bit more income to

like, toss in.

I'm like there's so many
projects that I think are going

to like, not because they're bad
projects, but they're just

going to go to basically zero
and that's going to be my time

to strike, because, like there's
a couple of them that I know

are really good and there's a
couple of them that I see have a

lot of potential, but it's just
so far out of my price range

that like it's not even feasible
.

You know it's not even yeah.

Speaker 2: I know it makes
perfect sense, can you?

I'm just curious, like can you
give me some examples?

What are the ones that you're
most excited about but

potentially or actually being
able to accumulate in a bear

market when it's when there's
not this much foam Like?

Is there a particular one that
you like have major FOMO total

ion as an investment and also
like as, just like a personal

collector favorite?

Speaker 1: Yeah, great question.

So the ones that I have my eye
on, it's actually not board apes

, it's the mutin apes.

I think that they have some of
the hottest potential.

I think the artwork is just so
fucking killer Like I just like

that is my favorite PFP artwork
project today and I have I said

it with 100% confidence because
I just I think I think it's just

like so fantastic.

I think cool cats as well, like
they have like something about

cats and the internet always
just go together, and NFTs are

such a blend of internet,
culture, finances and community

that I think cats are always
going to be a bit.

That, to me, is going to be
like a safe bet, like that one's

not going to.

That, to me, is never going to
like be a bad bet.

Speaker 2: I fully agree with
you on cool cats and I I wasn't

even one that was like super
early to cool cats.

I didn't mint them.

I bought a couple when they
were like you know, 0.3 ETH or

something.

I actually bought my wife a
cool cat that she really wanted

a couple of weeks ago.

So I don't have a ton, I don't
have a ton, but I really do like

it.

I think that they are.

I like their art.

They feel very differentiated
from many of the art styles that

you get in a lot of the profile
picture projects.

Speaker 1: So I like to guess, I
like to guess, we like to guess

you know I like to guess I
couldn't, I couldn't get, I

can't, I don't have enough to
invest in it right now.

I also think, you know, now the
one I I know is going to do

well and when I is, because I
also regret selling it the most

in the very beginning.

My first big time flip was
World of Women, where I actually

made and to me, a big flip.

You know, I invested, I paid
mint for two women, you know,

which is 0.16 after like a total
, and then I sold it.

I flipped both of them for a
total 1.3 ETH.

Speaker 2: That's a 10X.

It's 10X, it's a 10X.

It probably wasn't even that
long Like it probably was like a

weaker right.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it was about
two to three weeks, which felt

like forever, but now I look at
the floor it's at 4.5.

But I think that one has
historical significance because

it was like it touches on so
many different things that like

are a lot of good.

Like number one, it's
empowering women.

It has a 100% female art, like
the artist is female, it's going

back into so many nonprofits
and it like the art is just like

it touches on a lot of
different cultures and I'm just

man like why did I get rid of it
?

Not only in this space?

I was like I talked to the D's
of this yesterday like only in

this space can you flip
something for 10X and actually

be upset about it.

Speaker 2: Oh, no, no, I mean, I
talk about this all the time

and you know there's a line that
comes from the traditional

financial background and we do a
lot of.

We do a lot of investments
together and you know he's not

as big into NFTs even and NFTs
are a little bit different more

into more of the token side and
like it's crazy because, like we

did a deal recently where it
was like we bought a token, we

did an investment and it was
immediately like two weeks after

, it was like up 5X and it was
like only in crypto can you get

a 500% return in two weeks and
not even consider the

possibility of stuff Like not
even like I mean, it's

ridiculous and that's that's so
crazy.

It's even.

It's, honestly, you know, crazy
in NFTs.

Obviously it's not as liquid in
NFTs and it's it's a very

different game that you're
playing.

But like only there is not,
there is nothing, there is no

market that punishes sellers
more right now than the NFT

market of 2021.

Nothing selling truly, truly
like I can't.

There are the number of sales
that I have regretted pails in

comparison to the number of NFT
sales that I have, you know,

been like that was a good sale,
like and obviously that's that's

not always gonna be true Like
the market's gonna gonna crash a

lot of and a lot at some at
some point right, Like and those

they'll be looked back on,
maybe more fondly, but still

like it is.

It is crazy how punishing it
really is for people.

But yeah, no, that's a good
flip, that's a good flip.

Speaker 1: It was.

It was a good one, you know,
but now the floor is at 4.5,

right, you know, even after.

So I'm just man, yeah, now one
thing I wanted to ask you

because we've why.

I think I actually already know
the answer, but we one last

thing on the topic of like
things that are gonna go long

term, is anything Gary V does
when it comes to NFTs.

You know, like I.

Speaker 2: Okay, I like and this
is a, and this is like, this is

like a, this is a bit of a like
.

Wow, okay this isn't the answer
that most would give like

meaning.

I don't disagree with you and I
actually think if you propose

this to most people, they would
probably agree.

But most people, if they asked
which ones are going to be

around, which projects are going
to be around forever, which

projects are going to have most
long term value, most people

would say Crypto punks.

They would say our blocks are
curated, you know, and Gary V

would not be as high on the list
.

I absolutely agree with you.

I actually that.

I mean I'm extremely bullish on
Gary V and just to make it real

, like I'm not a huge Gary V fan
like I, I want to want to Okay

well, and that's great, and so.

Speaker 1: I'm going to be
partially because of the fanboys

like you and I don't, I don't
know.

I get like no, if it's taken
yet like.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he has.

He has built an incredible
following of people like, strong

following, passion.

It like you if you wanted to be
in you know borderline, you've

even say like cultic following
right, like 100% like and I'm

not saying you are, but like
truly has built that much

passion out of his, you know,
out of his follower base and and

for justifiable reason, like
dude dude gets it.

But I, I think nobody, I don't
know of a single person that has

brought more unique Individuals
into into NFTs in the last year

and a half.

Yeah, gary V like if you look
at the way that walla

distribution for v friends sets,
it's set up in terms of like

unique owners of the only NFTs
they own initially, like they're

first in a few of the friends.

It's insane and so I think he
deserves I mean, and as I did

you, participate in his book
thing about I bought 24.

Speaker 1: I'm curious, okay.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I
bought 24.

Well, I bought 24 books and you
know, I have no idea what the?

Yeah, I have no idea.

It was kind of funny because
and there's this visit, there's

this reality, this mentality and
crypto it was If I go spend

like 25 E3 even one either to
eat, it's like not Mentally it's

okay for me to swallow that,
but if I was been 500 bucks on

both, I like look that, I like
bulk, I'm like what?

yeah what are you doing, like,
why are you buying?

Why are you spending this money
, this money, dollars, on books

and and if you think about it in
terms of E, if you think about

it as like you're minting a Gary
V NFC for point one E It'd be

an instant no rainer, and I
wouldn't even, I wouldn't even

pause.

Yeah, well they.

So there is a funny, there's a
funny thing there.

But yeah, I mean, I bought
several v-fence at the beginning

.

I have a good, sick yeah and I
mean look, there's a clear

roadmap, a clear path for
success for him with the V con

and with future utility it's
gonna be given to v-friends.

If I'm not, I'm not gonna say
that v-friends are like gonna

100x from here.

I don't think there's gonna be
any NFTs that hold value quite

as well as the v-friends do in
an extended bear market.

And if they do get discounted,
I would absolutely look 100% and

, I think, something to make a
correlation.

Speaker 1: We were talking a bit
about this offline, but the one

of the key traces I look for,
and one of things that's

probably the hardest thing to do
for people who are creating

projects Whether it's our blocks
, whether it's promise what,

whether it's any new project is
coming out is the ability to

create demand, like that is.

It is probably one of the
hardest things to do, and people

like Justin Aversa and Gary V
are the two people that I know

that can do it best, like you
know, crush it.

Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, and
it's funny because they both

they've done it very right,
weights right, Like Gary.

Gary has done it on this sort
of like maps, marketing scale,

justin has done it and this like
hands, hands in the dirt, like

Personal community curation,
talking to collectors personally

.

They're two different models,
they're two different groups,

but they're, they're
fundamentally very similar

actually.

Um, and yeah, the ability to
generate demand, which you and

obviously in this marketing
edition, where people aren't

punished for anything into
things, it's easier to generate

demand.

Right and it is, or it creates
this like self-evil and prophecy

.

But yeah, no, I mean, gary V
should absolutely be committed.

Speaker 1: There's a doubt, I'm
a, but I would argue on that.

One point, though, is that you
know, like what, what Built,

that a lot of that cultist
following is in grant, that he

shares it all over social media,
and he, you know that's part of

the marketing, but there's not
one person, whoever like, if he

gets called in the street,
there's not one person.

He'll stop everything he does
to go talk to him.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Like well, yes, yeah,
no, I did a different sense,

like it's not in art, like
Justin with the art form.

Speaker 1: Gary does it like
with, just like the practical

advice for him, you know, but
it's, it's insane to see him.

The sales marketing, the live
sales.

Yeah, and even if he didn't
have an exact roadmap, even if

he said there was no V con, I
would still be as bullish on

Gary.

Yeah, yeah, right right, I said
.

Speaker 2: I said you agree with
you.

I mean I don't think he's gonna
be only utility, he's going,

he's only IP and licensing.

Speaker 1: He's like gonna be
creating comic books and TV

shows and children.

I can see it Like I can
actually see that happening yeah

.

Speaker 2: Absolutely no, I'm,
yeah, yeah, I'm totally with you

.

I mean, yeah, yeah, I really do
like your V.

I bought the books.

I like isn't fvs.

I have a couple of V friends Um
and I I feel extremely comfort.

I haven't even like considered
like maybe I should sell one.

Speaker 1: I feel that's that's
that's a, that's a testament.

You know that's a testament to
like what he's doing.

But you know I want to want to
want to switch gears a little

bit.

You know like want to talk a
little bit more at you, mike,

like what, what Interested you
in the NFC space or what?

How did you even stumble into
the space, like I?

I know it's a probably a broad
question.

It has a very long answer.

I'm here for it.

Speaker 2: You know, no, I mean
we can do.

Yeah, no, great, great question
, great question.

So, uh, yeah, man, this is one.

So I mean, I first heard about
Crypto in general back in 2013,

2012 or 13.

I heard about Bitcoin.

I actually went to like this
discussion group.

You know, that's like in my
community.

There was this like men's
discussion group.

They would like talk about
economics or or politics, or

philosophy and like great
whiskey, smoke, cigars, that

sort of thing, and, and there
was one, there was a.

There was a guy that was a
little bit older than me, but he

was a younger guy and he did
his.

He did a presentation all about
Bitcoin and it was very

interesting because one of the
guys that started the discussion

group was a big gold bug and,
you know, had a ton of gold,

made a lot of money in the
healthcare, healthcare world and

allocated a ton of capital to,
you know, to physical gold and,

you know, did very, very well in
a physical gold trade because

when he was buying it it was
very inexpensive.

But you sort of approach the,
the buying gold, from a sort of

laissez-faire Austrian economics
, pseudo anarcho-capitalist

perspective in terms of like,
okay, you know, states, state

money, state money is not sound.

State money is not dependent.

We can look at how money is
being inflated and money is

being used.

It's highly problematic.

It's not a great store of value
.

Good gold is at that and
probably was at that time one of

the best hedges Against, you
know, the state's increasing

appetite for power.

Okay, the idea right.

And so I heard about Bitcoin.

It was very interesting because
, you know, I wasn't as old as

the gold bugs and so I sort of
understood like the internet is

big, obviously, and there's this
like now there's like this

internet money and you know.

And then I learned about the
idea of blockchain.

Blockchain seemed very
interesting.

You know, I didn't buy Bitcoin.

After that.

I wasn't even at a point in my
life where I, you know, where I

had any capital to invest in
anything.

I wish I had bought some
Bitcoin, says that body that

that's learned about it.

Speaker 1: Oh, that didn't you.

Speaker 2: Yeah no but but, like
clear, like you know, I

listened to like an hour-long
presentation about it and then

an hour-long discussion
afterwards and I still didn't

buy it.

I was very interested in it.

It appealed to me Fast-forward.

Late, early 2016, you know, mid
2016, I started hearing about

Ethereum and at this point I was
, I was, much more integrated

into sort of the tech, tech
scene, tech space.

I was thinking about technology
.

I I still, I still was
passionate about economics and

finance and money and what money
was.

But I was more interested in, I
Was more interested in how like

Find about in financial
applications that that could be

used to sort of like replace and
supplant certain existing

systems.

And so smart contracts yeah,
totally spoke to me like I got

smart contracts very, very
quickly and when I understood

the power of you can set this
set of conditions that so so

much that when your asset, so
when somebody wants to purchase

your asset, it self acts, it's
you know, they put, they post

their collateral, the purchase
and it executes the transaction

in a way that's trustless, in a
way this non custodial, in a way

that doesn't require a
middleman to take a huge cut of

the fees and you know all you're
paying is like the, the fees to

pay the network that it's you
know, to make sure the actual

actions go.

That was fascinating to me.

I Intuitively, you know, after
thinking about it, I understood

how big this is going to be.

You know I got into Ethereum.

I should have played the ICO
game a little bit in late 2016,

2017, you know I still, I
understood Ethereum, I

understood smart contracts, but
you know the market at that time

, there were so many people that
were in these ICO pre-sales

where, like it would, there were
, the money was so easy and so

free to make to be made, that
many people sort of glossed over

like is the technology that
we're investing in actually good

?

There was a sort of like Cane
bring explosion of tokens that

didn't actually have any value.

They were just like named the
thing that this person that had

like some idea to his blockchain
with and, of course, on

speculation alone, tons of them
exploded.

I made a lot of money.

I lost a lot of money.

Yeah, like you know, I didn't
end up.

I didn't come out a ton ahead.

I, that's not true.

I came out a lot ahead, but I
didn't start with very much

capital, and so you know.

So then in 2017, I started like
sort of hone my thesis, after I

realized like a lot of the
stuff is Dogshit, garbage, vapor

, yeah, and like I need, I
realized like I needed to, I

needed to figure out like what I
wanted to hold for a while, and

so I mean I got lucky, to be
totally honest, like I mean, I

picked some really, really nice
coins to invest in and hold for

the bear market.

I went extremely heavily into
chain link and, to you know, it

was probably the largest
investment that I made.

And the reason I thought chain
link was the reason she was the

largest investment is that I
understood the implications for

smart contracts, if they could
be.

I understood the Oracle problem
very well in that smart

contracts were limited to tokens
, but if we could make smart

contracts apply to anything and
everything in a way that

maintained the sort of
non-custodial decentralization,

trillions, of trillions of
dollars.

So I mean big investment in
chain link.

I invested in synthetics SNX,
which you know was a synthetic

asset DeFi protocol.

I invested in Linde, which is
now Ave it was a lending

borrowing protocol and I
invested in VZX, which was a

margin trading, a decent margin
trading protocol.

So I basically went all in on
DeFi and I basically went on all

in on what like, from an
economics perspective, I

understood were important
pillars for DeFi, for finance,

for for some sort of system of
finance to have right, like if

you're gonna have an agent
ecosystem.

You need lending and borrowing,
you need leverage.

You know you need synthetic
assets.

You can get exposure to things
that aren't tokenite.

And you need and you need data
fees and you need price fees and

you need chain link.

So that was sort of like my
thesis.

Um, you know I was, I was in
school, I was doing other things

outside of crypto, I was
working in the space as much at

that point, um, but I, like,
placed my bets and, thankfully,

most of them just crushed it,
even throughout the bear market,

and they all did really well.

So I got a lot more capital.

I started to get involved at
some of the dowels that they

were building in real quick,
what?

Speaker 1: and let's dive into
dowels, like just for, because

some of the audience, like I,
built my get.

You know, a lot of my audience
was built on gaming, e-sports,

you know, and I think dowels, in
a weird way, is actually a

great that way to that like.

So, like when you, when you
started getting into dowels,

like what is like number, what
is it now, like you know what's,

what's your like, what's the
primary purpose of a dow?

Yep.

Speaker 2: Great question, yeah,
so a DAO stands for

Decentralized, autonomous
Organization.

It's basically a way to
organize power in a way that's

decentralized and organize
powerful action in a way that

doesn't give a ton of power or
capital to a single individual.

So it's like community power,
community decision making,

community capital that can be
deployed in all parties or most

parties in a group.

That's like a very, very basic
understanding of what a DAO is.

And DAO will do a couple things
.

Dao's, first and foremost, will
help deal with regulatory

scrutiny.

They help companies that are
building complex D5 protocols

avoid a lot of the regulatory
risks by decentralizing the

power and decentralizing the
building of those protocols, and

so that's the one thing that
they do.

But there's also a huge social
element of DAO's as well.

That's really, really
interesting.

I actually just did an event on
DAO's with insidecom last month.

It was late last month and we
had three speakers that were

just incredible Jonas Lamis, his
daughter, rebecca Lamis, and

Jess Loss, who are all members
of various DAO's, building

certain DAO's Yep, yep, I'm
pretty sure if we did a video,

you should go watch the video.

If you haven't.

It's the best presentation, the
best deep dive into DAO's that

you will get in 40, 45, 50
minutes.

Speaker 1: I'll link that in the
show.

I'll link that in the show that
way, if anyone listening wants

to go watch it, because it's
100%.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a pretty
great one, and I'm not one to

typically plug like, oh yeah,
you should watch this.

That one, though.

Truly, if anyone asks me what a
DAO is now, that's my go-to

recommendation.

There's a lot more.

We can get a lot more
philosophical with DAO's.

We'll give you some of the
links that you can post in the

show notes as well.

That's a very, very intro to
DAO's, and I want to touch on

how gaming affects DAO's.

Let me jump back right into
this.

Later I'll wrap up this
narrative.

So I got into DeFi.

I started building a bunch of
DAO's.

I started doing a lot of angel
investing, started to run a lot

of different angel checks in the
crypto space.

I'm in the process of launching
a fund right now, and so fast

forward that's right now mostly
investing in building pretty

much just full time investing in
building.

At this point, when it comes to
gaming in trip-in-native gaming,

it's imperative that we touch
on what NFTs are, and it's

imperative we touch on token
economics and token economic

incentives.

So a lot of people know what
AXI is.

Axi Infinity it's a
play-to-earn model.

It was, as far as we can tell,
the first play-to-earn model

video game that ever worked.

It's this idea that by playing
the game, you can actually earn

real capital, real assets.

And this is different from a lot
of other games, for example in

other RPGs, where you play the
game, you grind the game for

hours and you do earn things,
but the things that you earn are

limited to the scope of that
particular game and they're

connected to an account that is
not owned by you.

It's only licensed by you and
it's controlled by the game

developer, so they can ban your
account, they can take your

assets, they can take your
100,000 hours of work that you

put grinding into a video game
and it's just.

You did it just to flex
socially at that point.

And clearly there's value in
don't get me wrong, played a lot

of Destiny, played a lot of all
the video games where you have

to go grind, played RuneScape
where you're not able to get it.

But and my point is this, if
there is enough demand for

individuals to play games and
spend thousands of hours playing

games where they earn fake
assets that aren't worth

anything outside the confines of
the game, how much more willing

are people going to be to play
a game that earn them assets

that are relevant to the game
but also have value outside of

what the game developers say,
and that, like summarizes my

bull thesis on gaming and how
it's going to work with NFTs.

When you bring your wallet your
Ethereum wallet, your Solana

wallet, whatever it is into a
video game, you are bringing

your own decentralized identity
and you're bringing your actual

assets into the game with you
and you bring them back out when

assuming you didn't lose them,
or whatever, because you spent

them on something right.

And when you buy an NFT that is
an asset in a game, you own that

asset regardless of what
happens to the game, right?

And so there is a.

There's a famous quote, and
it's Jeff Bezos that makes this

quote here, and Bezos said that
your take rate is my opportunity

.

Speaker 1: And the ID here is
that, and what do you I saw your

tweet when you said that.

What did you say?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: I was thinking about
this a while ago.

Your take rate is my
opportunity and there's a great

thread by some other VC.

I think it's an A16G guy.

I'd have to go check.

I should live about this.

The summarizes with Axie and the
ID here is that, like there

were companies that Bezos was
competing with that had

incredible margins, meaning
their profit margins were thick

and they made.

If it costs 30 bucks, they made
100 bucks, and Bezos saw that

their margin was his opportunity
to come in and undercut their

competition.

And so with something like Axie
, what was something like a

traditional video game game,
developers keep and owners of

the game keep all revenue spent
on the assets in the game.

In a model like Axie, where
it's play to earn, where you

actually pay assets to other
players, where there's NFTs that

get exchanged, nfts that get
sold, the model of the margins

get shrunk drastically.

They get shrunk by 95%, but it
doesn't matter, because they

beat the competition.

They absolutely correct the
competition and they award all

of the players and all of the
capital, and so that, to me, is

the future.

I'm very bullish on the
metaverse.

I'm very bullish on my assets,
or my assets, I'll be able to

take my crypto punk with me or
whatever it is like.

In all these different worlds
and all these different games

and people and no game
developers can be able to ban my

wallet and take my assets and
take my whenever my legendary

cloak was.

Then I heard so that's sort of
like my very basic thesis on

gaming and NFTs and why I view
gaming as a perfect opportunity

for crypto.

But how about answering any?

Speaker 1: other questions or
elaborate on that.

When you, there was something
that I completely went away from

me.

We'll have to go back to it.

I'll start by telling you a
story like yesterday.

I had one of my neighbors when I
was telling him what I was

getting involved in.

I was talking to him about NFTs
.

I was like this is something
I've been talking about for the

past six months.

He's in the game, he's in the
Fortnite, he's in all these

things, and when I was
describing this to him, I said

when you buy a skin in Fortnite?

He chuckled his great example,
because it's really important

when I'm explaining these things
, to make it relevant to the

person you're explaining, to
Give them a real life example

and a use case of what this
actually means, how this

technology can apply to them,
Because a lot of people can't

see that.

And so I said, well, I asked
him a question do you actually

own that Fortnite skin?

And he was like well, he's out
there for about 10 or 20 seconds

.

And he's like well, no, I said
well, what exactly are you

paying for then?

And it clicked right.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I know and
listen, I play Fortnite with my

brother, I play Fortnite with my
cousin and if you see the OG

skins in Fortnite it's a big
deal.

But the idea that you don't own
that is crazy.

And there's so much economic
activity that could be added and

could be spurred and could be
created by transferring

ownership of those assets to
just licensing ownership, and

that's something that
fundamentally, nfts are going to

change for gaming.

I also really interested in how
token economics work in

conjunction with NFTs in terms
of how native currencies and

those types of things plug into
video games themselves in their

interaction.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so too,
and I think you know my, of

course, I grew up playing like
Pokemon.

I grew up playing like all
those games of the Game Boy, and

you know that's like to me,
that's like what Axiom is.

It's a new age version of
Pokemon.

Like, you have your characters,
battle and you can.

I've never played Axiom.

You know it's a little bit more
than that, but you know it's

essentially a beefed up version
of that.

Now my curiosity I've always
been an FPS gamer, you know.

I've always been a big Halo guy
.

You know, big Call of Duty guy.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it literally
changed my childhood.

Speaker 1: I bought it at well
parents at TimeBoughtonXbox,

just to play Halo.

I couldn't even hold the
controller in my hand.

You know so much nostalgia
there, right?

You know my fascination is how,
and now I'm currently playing

Valorant, which it's?

I'm touching this because
Valorant in my opinion you

cannot find a game that has
better skins than them.

They are so expensive.

But there is nothing that can
be the Valorant skin, and if you

don't know what I'm talking
about, please look like.

Look up.

Like the Elder Flame skin on
Valorant.

It is literally okay, okay.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, no,
no, I've seen this game.

Speaker 1: They're also with how
FPS and NFTs and like these

like and gaming works with, with
a lot of these tokenomics and

this in this, like how does that
all work?

Like that's.

To me, that's like the million
dollar question.

And, taking it a step further,
is esports being built, like you

know, being built on the
blockchain, like that's?

I know, yeah, yeah, that's
totally that's my thing and I

just don't.

I haven't even come up with a
thesis on how that would work.

You know, I haven't even come
up with like an idea of how that

would work.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a
great.

The specifics, the details are.

The devils are always in the
details, for sure, but the

details and specifics of how
it's going to play out are not

nearly as important to me as,
like the, as having the

infrastructure in place to
facilitate it.

And so, like, I'm confident
that if we get the

infrastructure built out, if we
onboard the users, if we bring

more people into you know, into
and we get more people

comfortable with with Web 3,
like that's going to get built

and I can't wait, I can't wait
for an eSports game that, like,

perfectly plugs a little bit of
back end on Web 3, where, if I

want to go, if I want to go play
Valorant, I plug in my Metamask

account and my super rare NFT
Valorant skin is, you know, only

shows up in Gator because I
plugged in my Web 3 account and

that's the asset, that and like.

And then when I go win around, I
, I, I, I, I, I, I, you know,

maybe I can, I can seamlessly
bet right on this eSports.

So, like, I can seamlessly say
I'll throw, I'll put $5 on an

escrow or whatever it is for for
this particular match If I win

the match.

You know, I mean the, the.

The possibilities, once the
tech is optimized, are truly

endless.

I really could not be more
excited on on gaming as it

relates to crypto.

I think it's one of the more
overlooked aspects of sort of

the marriage of NFTs.

I think it's honestly the most
low hanging fruit, or NFT for

NFT like for for NFT mass appeal
if you want to make NFTs

explode, if you want to onboard
people in crypto, make video

games that use Metamask and use
NFTs.

Speaker 1: So this is actually
something that's been popping

into my head a lot, though.

So the more in this has to
exactly do with gaming, the more

I read about Solana, the more I
watch about watch Solana, the

more I believe, like, I think
that Ethereum and Solana have

like their.

I don't think one is going to
overtake the other.

I think they have both two
independent.

They're both going to excel, in
my opinion, and parallel.

Um I.

The way I look at this is that,
like when we, when we're

talking about tech being
optimized and games being built

on web three, like if I think
about that on the current state

of Ethereum, like my I I
actually get sick to my stomach

of how cringe that would be.

You know, like how slow it is,
how clunky it is, like yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right.

Speaker 1: So I think, that you
know NFTs like when you talk

about like fine art collectibles
, you know PFP projects.

That's to me forever going to
live on NFTs Like I could never

if I bought that in Solana.

It just wouldn't have the same
vibe.

You know, like I, I don't get
the same feeling.

Speaker 2: But yeah, well, part
of that, part of that is and

part of that.

Just just to interject for a
second like one of the biggest

parts of art collecting and and
the sort of value of art

collecting is tradition and
history.

Like one of the most important
attributes and elements, like

core elements, is is is history
and tradition.

And Ethereum did it first.

And all the NFTs that are on
Ethereum the old ones, the OG

ones, have been around for a
while.

Like art blocks are clearly
like the first a big generative

art play right, like like Crypto
punks are clearly the first

like so they have history.

Solana right now is brand new.

The NFTs that are on Solana,
they're awesome.

I have a lot of them, but they
they currently don't have the

same sort of, they don't have
the same sort of weight

distribution and culture.

yet yeah, no, and and this is
why I actually agree with you

I'm mostly bullish on Solana
NFTs for gaming.

Speaker 1: I was just about to
say that it might be

transactions in gaming, like I'm
.

Speaker 2: I'm.

I'm excited about Star Atletes,
like for for.

For this exact reason and I may
not think their model I had, or

guys don't want to think their
model.

Like I I am very excited about
what games people are going to

build on Solana that use NFTs on
Solana.

I'm also bullish on Ethereum
games.

I just think it's going to take
a while.

We're going to have to figure
out some scaling solutions.

We're going to have to figure
out how that's going to work and

how it's going to integrate.

But I think you have it right
in that currently, the culture,

the tradition, the art, a lot of
that it has a premium when it's

on Ethereum.

Yep, it's special when it's on
Ethereum and it's OG.

Right now, I don't feel
spectral for being on Solana.

I do think that changes over
time.

Like I do think the first
Solana NFTs become more valuable

.

Um, I just you know they just
got mentioned.

They're brand new.

Speaker 1: Right, it's almost
like the words, like literally

verbatim, like right out of my
mouth, like where I was going

with Solana and gaming and start
out, this was, like my, my

biggest like use case, for that
was like.

You know, I haven't done a
whole lot of research on the

actual Solana platform or how it
all works, but just just the,

the look, the Christmas, like
the, the graphics are are

pristine, I mean cause.

That's what got me thinking.

I'm like if you try to put that
level of graphics on Ethereum,

that just won't work.

You know, like cause, that was
built with Unreal Engine 5, you

know, and and that it it looks
so so so incredible, you know,

and in my questions around, like
you know, is is there a?

Is there a a time where, down
the road, where Ethereum NFTs

can go on to the like, it's like
the interoperability of NFTs on

each chain.

Like if you could put a fine
art, like, say, you're in a ship

in Star Isle and you could like
deck out your ship with a spray

, you know, with a piece of art
that you bought from a crazy

collector, like, say, like a, or
if you're in the ship, you

could put like a picture of your
Fidenza in the ship, right,

like.

You know what I mean.

Like, is there a?

Is there a point where they can
connect and you can actually

like use those and all the
chains connect and everything is

meshed together to where it's
seamless?

Do you ever see that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, there is a
point I mean, there's a look,

there's a point where the tech
becomes, where the technology,

where the technology is is able
to do that.

The bigger question is like
yeah, the bigger question is how

, what will the demand be like
for that specific type of thing?

Where will it be?

Where will it be?

How will it be situated?

Yeah, I think we're still
several years out from that

actually happening.

Like we need to see the actual
games built first and we need to

see, like yeah, we need to
figure that out.

I do see a world that happens
where you can have multiple

wallets connecting, and maybe
even from multiple chains.

I think we're a long way out
though.

Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I'm one
of those people that has always

liked to like live on the
absolute edge of things and like

think about, like, even even
when we're like so early, like

point zero, zero one percent of
people know about this, like I'm

trying to add five more zeros
to that about like what this

could look like.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, I mean
listen and listen, that's like

that's super important.

It's really important that we
have people that think that way

and that that are constantly
living on the edge and pushing

the boundaries right, like
that's.

We wouldn't have gotten to
where we are in the space now if

it weren't for people like that
.

So, and I mean, I do like to
spend a good chunk of time and I

had space as well, but yeah, no
, I don't know.

I don't know when that's going
to happen.

I just think I think it's an
issue of, like priority in terms

of execution, and so I think
there's other stuff that we have

to optimize first.

There's other stuff that we
have to prioritize before we can

get there, and but I don't know
.

You know, maybe, yeah, maybe
somebody should be, I mean, and

there are teams that are working
on like cross chain

compatibility, like we have Rune
and Thord chain.

It's clearly working on like
this general decentralized

atomic swap thing, but then,
yeah, but the but the world

you're describing, I think it
happens.

Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no.

I'm not sure I wanted to get
your take on that because, like

I like I can see the immediate
future and I can see this

playing out, but like, okay,
let's take that a step further.

One of the one of the switch
gears, a little bit man like,

because it's the it's the topic
around cryptocurrency that I

know I say the least about is
around DeFi, and it's something

I like, I'm excited about it,
but I don't, I don't, like all I

know, what I know, has come
from fractional, so I have like

a huge thanks to, like, andy
Dee's, the team for building

that because, like that to me,
is one of the greatest ways that

I could learn anything about
DeFi, because I'm buying pieces

of art of people that I like it
creates a feeling that we were

talking about, you know.

Yeah, I think it's interesting.

Speaker 2: It actually works
both ways.

I think I think fractional,
fractional listen, I love

fractional.

Love Andy, love Dee's love with
their building.

Fractional is incredible and
I've talked about how incredible

fractional is for quite some
time.

It this?

What you're describing is an
underrated aspect of what

fractional has done and is doing
, but it's it's not.

But it's not any less important
than some of the other problems

.

That solving what fractional is
doing for people that are into

NFTs is exposing them to DeFi.

What it's bringing for people
that are into DeFi that use

Uniswap, that you understand how
liquidity provision works, it's

allowing them to come learn
NFTs in a way that is totally in

their own native language and
that is fascinating to me.

Like that is, it's brilliant.

And fractional, like I still
think fractional, fractional has

a great working product,
totally works.

I own I participated in
Justin's twin token I have some

of.

Anonymous is X copy.

Five eyes I have.

I think I have three or four
other fractional tokens.

So I have a list of fractional
tokens.

They're awesome, it's really
cool, it's a brilliant idea, but

what you're exactly describing
is totally correct.

You, as an NFT person, now get
to sort of understand how DeFi

works and the importance of DeFi
by owning a percentage of

whatever this piece is that's
been tokenized and that's

incredible.

What fractional is going to do
is it's going to bring a and we

can talk about, like what DeFi
is and my thesis on DeFi in a

second.

What fractional is going to do,
in my view, is it's going to

bring this sort of extended
liquidity and extended program

ability to NFTs that is so
important If you want to expand

the market for NFTs right now.

You know there are funds, that
there are some funds like three

hours capital, for example.

I documented this and I've chat
with them all the time like

three hours capital bought a
bunch of NFTs them and Vincent

Van Doe.

They ate into tons of crypto
punks or blocks, curated, you

know.

They even boxed between flames
deaf beef all these like very,

very classic works of art they
ate into.

But they're you know they're a
bit different.

I mean, they're very much built
, different in terms of how they

, how they allocate capital, how
they invest all that stuff, and

so they were like sort of some
of the first, that's what they

ate into actual NFT ownership.

But the problem for many funds
is that NFTs are not liquid.

Nfts are difficult to value and
when something is not liquid

and it's when it's difficult to
value like it's just there's a

certain risk profile.

The risk profile is totally
different and it's not enough

for somebody that wants to get
$8, $10, $50, $100 million into

an NFT sector, an NFT space,
it's very difficult to do that.

Fractual is going to make that
possible.

Fractual is going to allow big
funds to spend money allocating

towards NFTs, fractionalizing it
, gamifying it, getting a liquid

much faster, you know, in terms
of their investment, because

now the token can be traded
freely and, no, no, they don't

have to worry about finding a
buyer for a $10 million NFT, and

they can, and that can be
something that makes their

investors happy as well.

So I'm extremely bullish on
what fractional is going to do

for bringing institutions in the
NFT space.

That's what it enables, but I
also am very excited because it

is going to allow NFTs to come
into the DeFi space.

So the first part of like is it
creates this liquidity, but it

also creates more
programmability, which means

when you have these tokens that
can now interact with any DeFi

protocol, you can now buy a twin
token and you can go lend it

out and get paid interest to
lend out the token, or you could

borrow the twin token to do
something with it.

Or maybe you could stake.

Maybe Justin launches some
token or some platform where if

you stake your twin token as
collateral, it helps, secures

the network and you earn some
sort of yield.

There's all these different
complex financial things that

can be done with tokens that
can't be done with NFTs.

That fractional is going to
enable and so I mean, yeah, it

expands the economic opportunity
for NFTs.

Gotcha A hundredfold Gotcha.

Speaker 1: In my view, one of
the questions that I have around

this is that, and first and
foremost, I didn't even think

about the institutional level.

The way I viewed it was simply
from the person who needs a

lower barrier to entry at the
time to learn.

So it's like for someone like
me.

What I did was like I was
probably at five to six

different fractional vaults.

I just invested.01 ETH,
literally like 20 bucks, 20, 25.

Yeah, dude, and I just spread
that across to them like okay,

I'm an experiential learner.

I can't just read about this
and understand the concept,

especially when I don't
understand D-Fi in general.

I'm very new to it.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Hey.

Hey hey, hey, hey, I also this.

I applaud you for her learning
by doing that's difficult to do,

it's risky and scary to do.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: And you know, like I
was just a couple times where I

got really excited and I was off
on the map like, instead of

just like I forgot to move the
zero two times over and I

thought I was going to make like
$5,000 on a $20 investment but

then someone was like, no, you
forgot two zeros.

I'm like but, but you know it's
just just to show the emotion.

But still, even though I look,
instead of 5,000, it was 50, you

know I put in 15.

That is still a 3X gain on my
investment and I'm like, okay,

that's kind of dope Right.

So similarly for the beibe with
non בbabibi and, of course, the

apple tree tree.

Speaker 2: And you remember when
one of the dos기- I mean it's,

it's, it's, it's, it's, it's
like a dope in me and rush right

like I think that either it's
it's incredibly, incredibly

addictive, dangerously, yeah,
yeah, but yeah, I think the

question.

Speaker 1: I have.

Is it like so when someone you
know Fractalizes or they, they

create a vault and they and they
give up dinner team, put it in

the fraction, lock it up at the
fractional vault?

You know like you have the
option to either provide a

little quiddy pool or to not
like what is.

I know what it look like.

I guess I don't even fully know
what a liquidity pool is like.

I know that liquid means money
and I know that you know you can

.

Yeah, I Can explain yeah, I can
explain like a yeah and there's

probably a video and send you
that you can show notes people

that are interested.

Speaker 2: So a liquidity pool
basically is a pool of Tokens or

Cabell from which people can
that that can buy and sell into,

right?

So for example is you know,
let's say there's, let's say

there's, a hundred tokens for a
project.

If I own 80 tokens, it's gonna
be difficult for me to sell all

80 tokens into a liquidity pool
Because there's likely not

enough liquidity for me to sell
into.

And so liquidity providers long
, for example, uniswap.

They get paid in fees every
time somebody swaps.

Now you know they may lose
Money in terms of like, they may

not when they, when they
provide liquidity, it's

typically 50 50s, but 50%
they're token and 50% of them in

Ethereum or USDC or whatever,
whatever the pair it.

And when people swap, it's
swapping out those tokens and

that of course caught, you know,
raises the price, lowers the

price, that sort of thing.

So they may end up losing If
the took.

If one token goes up way, way,
way more than the other one,

they may end up losing a little
bit, but they end up making out

okay because they earn fees on
it.

But liquidity pools are
incredibly important if you want

to be able to buy and sell an
asset, um, without going

directly to find, without
finding a single, appeared a

peer party where you can just I
sell to Kyle, kyle sells to me.

Liquidity pools are ways to
pool capital that people can buy

into and sell into.

You know, regularly, all the
time, yeah, that's sort of I

appreciate it.

Speaker 1: Now I'll still have
to do some more research because

, like the, I didn't even what's
what's wild about the, about

defi's, that I probably
understand more about finance

from the very little I know
about defi that I have in

traditional finance all the way
up to this point, which I think

is the fascinating thing about
this, because, like I Don't even

I like when I when I saw my
parents like you know, like my

parents were telling me about,
like you know, investing in 401k

and stocks and all these other
things, and, like you know, then

Robin Robinhood came out with
fractional shares and I'm just

like that all seems so boring,
like that is like that is just

the most boring thing.

I don't want to learn about this
like this, is this like I could

be, so I could be doing
something so much better with my

time, and I think that's what,
honestly, the way I'm looking at

this, is that traditional
finance wants it to seem so,

where it's all gate kept and
it's all like Insider knowledge

to where you want to go play
outside, versus making your

money work for you.

You know what I mean of.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, no
, you're exactly right and I

mean in boring and safe is how.

What boring and safe is is yeah
, boring and safe is how a A lot

of people about how a lot of
people are the traditional

financial system in the United
States Right, they're okay with

boring and safe.

The problem is, like the way
that inflation has gone, the way

that monetary policy has
changed, the way that spending

has changed, the way that
inflation, the way that asset

inflation has happened, boring
and the yields are bad now, and

so boring and safe doesn't cut
it anymore.

Boring and safe would cut it.

You know 30, 40, 50 years ago,
boring and safe is not boring

and safe.

It doesn't.

It doesn't, it's not working
for people that are our age at

all.

And so, yeah, I mean, yeah,
crypto is a revolution, crypto

is a crypto is a revolt against
the traditional financial system

in many respects.

I mean, you know, I was just
having a chat with like another

good friend of mine who Actually
, born and raised in Venezuela,

you know, was a, you know, was a
political activist for a long

time in Venezuela.

I an advocate for free speech
and for property rights and

economic freedom, you know, and
Because you know, at the time

when he was in Venezuela, the
their monetary policy was

horrible, property rights were
horrible.

The government can just take
your shit any time.

You know, the taxation is
horrible and if you criticize

the government for any of these
actions, you can get, you can go

to prison.

Speaker 1: You can get out and
get all this stuff.

Speaker 2: We're literally bad
and like you know he yeah,

that's experience where he
didn't, he didn't, he didn't

have a lot of well, what little.

You know what little money he
and his family had.

It was often taken from them.

He got it gets.

He valued.

When he spoke out against it.

You know he tried, he was.

He was almost killed several
times.

They try.

They kidnapped his pugs.

I'm thinking it was him, wow.

One point and yeah, yeah it's
really scary stuff, right, it's

like it's no.

So.

Stories like his are the types
of stories that, like, really

make me excited about the crypto
revolution, what we're building

, and that, like when he talked
about crypto and he talked about

building permissionless
networks, and he talks about

owning money and owning control
of your capital and owning

control of your assets, like
it's deeply personal to him, you

know, because, because, because
the experience that he's had

and I don't I don't think he's
alone in In I mean you know his

experiences.

Of course, you know very bizarre
and insane and crazy to happen

him, but his perspective on the
world and his perspective on

finances he's not.

He's not alone in that
perspective, and so I'm

extremely both on the crypto
revolution.

But I also believe it's
incredibly important, like I

really do think that
democratizing economic

opportunity, giving individuals
and communities ownership of

their own assets, ownership of
their own work, is incredibly

important, and cutting out
middlemen, both corporate and

state, it, you know it couldn't
be, it couldn't be more

important right now for, for,
for the society and culture that

we're living in.

So, like the crypto world, like
it's really cool.

When I get into nerdy stuff,
the very stuff is awesome I get

so we're setting up about that I
also just excited about, like

the ethos of the, of the, of
what we're building.

I get excited, you know, to talk
to people like him, where,

where I see the passion and I
see the, I'm reminded of the

importance of what it is that
we're building On, a, on a

bigger perspective about like it
can be really easy to get

caught up in this, like, oh, I
flipped this NFC and made this

money and like, and it's really
great that happens.

It's like huge, healthy market
activity.

In many respects it's like it's
good there's demand, it's good

that people were flooding in,
but there's a there's a bigger

perspective here that we also
have to remember and, yeah, it

makes me very bullish on people,
it makes me bullish on humanity

, it makes me bullish on crypto
and it makes me more, if you've

been excited to work in the
industry, right Like it.

The industry is fast, it moves
fast.

There's a lot of burnout that
happens each crazy.

The markets just move, unlike
any other markets.

But you know, when I feel like
it burned up, when I feeling

burned out, I you know the
package tends to get renewed

when I hear it's like that and
so, yeah, that's sort of that's

sort of a little bit about why I
mean, and I'll tell you, like

I've Very similar.

Speaker 1: I and I think Jimmy.

Jimmy said the best, which is
what sparked a lot of like me

Just reaching out to a bunch of
people to start talking about

NFTs.

Even more is that I was
watching a podcast where Jimmy

was on with Gary V and he was
like the best way he could

describe just specifically NFTs,
you know, was that he's like

you know, think of like NFTs is
like the, the lost treasure, and

we are the goonies who just
found the lost treasure that's

gonna save the town.

Except instead of treasure, the
threat, what the treasure

represents is the imagination
that we had as little kids of

what this world could be, and it
gave me it.

Sit chill.

I'm like, wow, this is like my,
you know, because I've always

envisioned this like incredibly
technological future.

I've been really bullish on
like how technology can make an

impact in people's lives, like
just a, just a small story, like

I kind of like people remember
and I were literally kind of

right on by the times airs would
be a little bit passive, but

you know, like how people
remember where they were on 9-11

, like exactly what they were
doing, what happened, and like

when they first heard that news.

I felt the same way about when
Steve Jobs pulled the iPhone out

of his pocket.

You know like.

Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, I feel
the exact same.

Feel the exact same Happened,
I've already happened.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I
remember I'm gonna pay $550 for

a 4 gigabyte, no 3g, no app
store, edge cellular iPhone, you

know, because in on top of the
revolutionary technology, no

one's a better presenter than
Steve Jobs and I'll die on that

hill like.

Speaker 2: I Absolutely, I mean
yeah, and I think touching on it

.

Speaker 1: We took a slice of
there, but I want to touch on

something that it relates to
like when the passion dies out,

like hearing stories like this,
it how it democratizes access

across the entire world.

Something that we actually I
think this whole podcast was

built on this connection was
Around pseudonymous cultures.

You know, around pseudonymous
investments.

You know around this like idea
of a pseudonymity and, yeah, you

know, like the way I see this
is that and I actually I can't

remember what podcast I listened
to that you were on that really

got me thinking.

You're like we all have.

We all have as humans, we all
have natural biases that like

Based on how we're raised, how
we're, like where we grew up.

You know we all have natural
biases as human beings and what

the pseudonymous culture does,
or like when you're investing in

NFTs, you're investing in
crypto, you're also investing in

the pseudonymous slash anon
culture.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, no, oh yeah
, I mean, and so, right, right,

I'm not the best person to talk
about this honestly and I would

say I'm at, I'm I'm quality to
talk about it.

The best person you need to go
listen to on the rise of pseudo

anonymity and the pseudo
anonymous culture is the logic

Bellagy, shreeney Vasan, one of
the founders of coin, early guys

at Coinbase, so the buy of that
company, very much a futurist

technologists big on Twitter.

He talks about pseudo anonymity
all the time.

But yeah, no, I mean, I'm
extremely bullish on what pseudo

anonymity is going to do from
an economic activity perspective

.

And you know, like there's so
many, there's so many aspects of

pseudo anonymity or just
straight up anonymity that are

that, that were, that give power
back to individuals where,

where the power was taken from
the individuals in the first

place, in my view, and so when
you, when you will have a

student, that, when you have a,
you know an anime character as

your profile picture online, you
know there may be a separate

type of discrimination that
happens on a pseudonymous level,

but there's, there's, there's
far less that there's.

There's different, it's a, it's
a.

It's a very different animal
and I think pseudo anonymity

helps solve many of the,
specifically when it comes to

economic discrimination that
happens to people on the basis

of race, gender, you know,
sexual orientation, orientation,

age, appearance a lot of that
stuff gets solved from an

economic opportunity perspective
in a pseudo anonymity, in a

pseudo anonymous culture, and
that's where I think was headed

at least a big part of it is and
I Think I think it's incredibly

important to protect that.

I think it's incredibly
important to protect people that

want to remain anonymous and
like I've written checks that's

two and a half teams.

I wrote a checks mononymous
team bits week.

I funded it, a fund of
anonymous team this week and so

like it's gonna take a long time
for people to get comfortable

with that.

It's gonna take up because it's
gonna take.

It's gonna take a long time but
people are starting to warm up

to it.

It started to become normal.

Some of my best friends are,
you know, anonymous or pseudo

anonymous on the internet and
and it's Part of it's just a

cultural thing like there are
certain generations that are

living right now that will just
never be okay with that for the

most Far, and it may take
several generations for it to be

totally comfortable.

Yeah, but it's absolutely that
the question.

Speaker 1: One of the ask is
like, you know, because you

probably invested in in people
to where you know their identity

.

You know like and so so when,
when looking, I guess the

question I have for you is like,
what's the like when you ask

yourself questions on like, do I
invest?

How much do I invest?

What are some of the questions
that you ask yourself?

Like on a pseudo anonymous
versus like you know, a

completely transparent you know,
and non anonymous you know team

.

Speaker 2: Yeah, great question.

I mean it helps when there is
some sort of social referral

right.

It helps when there's somebody
that I know, that you know.

It helps when there's somebody
that I know that vouches.

That type of thing is really,
really huge.

It helps when I can have a chat
with the team.

It helps when I can sort of
build even though they're

anonymous if you're anonymous it
helps when I can construct a

Rithk profile and understanding
about them in the context of

their pseudo anonymity and that
you know that really does help.

There's a lot of questions.

Some of the questions are like,
for example, if they're wanting

a DAO, making sure that, like,
the funds that I'm sending are

in a multi-sig right and like
it's not like controlled by one

person, and if there is other
people that I do know and trust

you know, that have an incentive
to keep the funds secure, like

that's an example of something
that increases my comfortability

level and this type of pseudo
anonymous investment, you know,

outside of that.

I mean it just depends on what
they're building honestly Like.

Speaker 1: there's probably a
lot of other questions I would

ask, but it's going to depend a
lot of what they're building

Gotcha and what I'm here to say
also, and it ties into it's wild

how this all webs together, but
it ties to a lot like what I

hear is a lot of social currency
, you know, it's like it's like

who these people are and like
some of it and the social

reputation of people.

Yeah, you know, even tying back
to fractional and DeFi like I

was one of the first investors
in Deez's hoodie punk, right,

and you know, and I actually put
that as my PFP and I've seen,

you know, and along with what's
wild about that is like, even

though I fully own the entire
punk, there was still a weird

set and I say weird just because
it was different a different

feeling I never felt before.

It was almost like a sense of
responsibility and putting that

profile picture on my Twitter
because, like, there's a culture

around punks, there's a social
currency around punks and like,

when you see a punk, you
immediately, you immediately

think trust.

Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.

No, I've trusted the same
owners to do not knowing they

are but knowing just because
they're punk owners is insane,

Like it's crazy.

It really is crazy.

There's like I mean, you know,
in fact, I used Deez actually

before and this was like months
ago, this was like four months

ago at least, maybe five, and I
use Deez is like an escrow and,

like you know, I sent him
$100,000 NFT.

Like he could have just run off
with.

It is what I'm saying Like and
he totally didn't.

Because there is this like even
in anonymous suit, in pseudo

anonymous culture, if there's
like this, there is a separate

identity that you're building up
and there's still social

reputation attached, it's just a
very different type and a very

different kind and it is really,
really compelling.

It makes me, it makes me buy
into the fact that pseudo

anonymity is going to like, that
we're going to overcome the

problems associated with people
trusting pseudo anonymity,

because I can see it already
happening on a small scale and

they're like okay, it's worked,
we've seen it happen, it's done,

it's going to continue to work,
it's just a matter of time.

But yeah, I mean, yeah, it's
crazy, you're totally right.

Like when you have a punk
profile picture, when you own a

crypto punk, when you have that,
you know, whatever it is like,

it's not just fun, because it's
other communities as well.

Speaker 1: There is a there's an
impact associated with it.

Speaker 2: And there's a,
there's this sort of social

credence that you get.

That's at this base level of
respect and it's impressive.

It's really really, it's really
really fascinating to watch.

It makes me more excited about
the future and make me more

excited about the pseudo
anonymous future.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think,
tying a bow on this all before

we start wrapping things up, is
that, like you know, that's, I

think, one of the most on top of
all of like the cool smart

contracts and R and R.

I guess, beneath all of that,
is that like one thing that I

have really noticed or I've
loved about the crypto world is

that to the outside world,
people who aren't involved,

cryptocurrency just sounds shady
.

It just has.

It doesn't have like crypto.

Crypto like it sounds very like
like we're hiding something.

Right, that's what that's the
feeling that I got, at least

when I first heard about it.

But like when I, when I dove
head first into the community,

is that like this actually
incentivizes people to do the

right thing?

Like that's like the thing that
I yeah, great.

Speaker 2: And there's great
economic incentives, right Like

there's yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you're totally
right.

Speaker 2: More, more Prices in
the whole culture is just

incentivize you to do the right
thing.

Speaker 1: Because why?

Because everything's public,
you can track everything that

happens.

Could you go create another
wallet?

All the wallowing.

Speaker 2: It's all the same
ledger.

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: You know, and to say
that I've never had just

ingenuous thought or like a
selfish thought, like that's

completely, that'd be a complete
lie, you know.

But what this does is this and
there are always going to be

some shady characters, but
people are so less incentivized

to indulge that shadiness in
this culture than any web to web

one and pre web culture that
I've ever been a part of.

Agreed, yeah, and that means
what is like, that's like the

heartbeat of this, because I've
never met, I met the most

genuine people.

I've never even seen their face
, like I've never seen, like

yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely man
.

But yeah, I want to start
wrapping things up, man, you

know, and just to just to give
the audience like a nugget to

chew on, you know, for people
that are just getting involved,

you know, whether it's NFTs,
whether it's DeFi, whether it's

crypto, you know if there, if
there's anything that you learn

kind of like right, whether it's
either right from the beginning

or a current experience that
you're, that you're having, like

what would be a piece of advice
that you would share with them,

some alpha, if you will.

Speaker 2: Piece of advice and
is this related to anything?

Is this like crypto generally?

Is it NFTs?

Yeah, like whether it's a
mantra and experience.

Speaker 1: You know a piece of
advice, like something that

you've like, one of the most
valuable things that you've

learned.

I like to leave the door wide
open.

I don't want to pigeonhole you.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, of
course, I mean there's a couple

of things.

The first one is like, don't be
afraid to bet on yourself is

one of the biggest things that I
would, that I would, that I

would say it's crazy how fast
the crypto industry moves and

it's really, really interesting
to see the number of people that

I, that I'm friends with in the
industry, that have that have

experienced immense success
financially but also just

personally, you know, in the
last, in the last two to three

years, because they bet on
themselves.

And I'm not saying you should
quit your job and you should go

full time trading NFTs or crypto
or anything, but what I would

say is like, don't be afraid,
don't be afraid to put, like to

put your neck out, to stick your
neck out to take, to take, to

take some risks personally, to
spend some time learning.

The space is so intimidating,
and so a lot of people just

don't think, a lot of people
just don't have the confidence

in themselves to sort of take
whatever extra leap they're

scared to take in terms of
getting more involved.

Maybe it's doing something like
a podcast, you know?

Do you know working with some
project, doing some sort of

community moderation work
whenever it is don't, don't be

afraid to bet on yourself, that
the, the the number of people

that I know that have bet on
themselves and truly only lost

is is basically, is like,
basically zero, right, like even

the even the people that bet on
themselves and lost still

learned enough about themselves
that they turned it into a win

down the line.

So, don't be afraid to bet on
yourself.

And then the, the accompanying
sort of like general life advice

with that is don't be afraid of
, don't be afraid of failure,

because the, the, the, the
biggest, most fundamental

driving factor in people not
betting on themselves is that

they're worried that they're
going to fail and that they're

going to worry.

They're going to worry that
it's going to be the end of sin,

of fail.

So, conquering that sort of
fear of failure and and being

willing to say I'm going to do
this to test myself, to push

myself, to see if I can do this
on my own, and I don't care if I

fail, because if I fail, it's a
learning opportunity that's

going to, that's going to be the
type of thing that takes you to

the farthest in this space,
like that's like, and not just

in the space, but also in life
in general.

But it applies you.

It applies most to you need in
this space because it's a

terrifying one.

It's so scary.

The type you have to learn, the
horror stories you hear about

breaking into the community is
weird.

It's such an in group right now
and so I would say don't be

afraid to fail.

Obviously, I'm not saying, I'm
not saying Google every time

we'll leverage on you know bit
more with all your, all your

capital.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be a
degenerate gambler and and and

risk blowing up your account.

What I am saying is don't be
afraid to take to bet on

yourself or to take risks, and
and don't let the reason that

you don't bet on yourself
because you're scaled or scared

of failure Like that's the
biggest thing, if there's

another, if there's no reason,
if, if, if, if there's some of

the reasons, that's fine don't
let that reason.

Speaker 1: I like that, yeah,
cause I like I'm in a very

fortunate position where you
know like I love my dog to death

and I would I would go to any
ends to like make sure he's

taken care of.

But you know, the reality is
that she costs maybe 500 to

$1,000 a year.

You know it's not that big Like
there's not any other

responsibility that I have
besides paying my own bills.

Speaker 2: So you know, like, if
, especially if, you're in a

position like that, like, let's
say, if you're in a business

like that, where you're where
your biggest responsibility is

your dog and and you kind of
like rent, like there's never

going to be, you're never going
to be, less risk averse, right,

like there's never going to be a
time, there's never going to be

a time where you can afford to
take on more risks than right

now if you're in a similar
position.

And so what like?

Why not Just just do it like?

Pull a leaky and do it right
Like it's?

Your risk profile is only going
to get more conservative from

here is rock on man.

Speaker 1: Go ahead, Michael.

Last thing where, if people
want to follow you, people want

to get to know you a little
better, where can they find you?

Speaker 2: Yeah, Yep, Twitter is
.

Twitter is the best.

I mean I'm sure you'll post
links.

My Twitter handle it's at
Michael Tant three, but with

capital in capital C, so it's
just my name.

And then I am the third.

So I'm Michael Edward Tant, the
third.

So the three is just my.

I'm the third.

So, yeah, that's my handle.

Follow me on Twitter.

My DMs are always open If you
are, if you're building

something and you need capital,
if you just want to connect, my

DMs are wide open.

I look at a lot of the old four
projects.

Speaker 1: I run a lot of checks
, so I'm happy to take a look at

any project that and if anyone
sees Michael's profile pictures,

probably arguably one of the
biggest flexes I've ever seen,

it is a bit of a flex.

Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I have the
I'm rocking on Twitter.

I'm rocking the CryptoPunk Fid
Fidenza background, which is

definitely it's about the most
flex you can put like in a

profile picture all at once.

I've seen.

I've seen some people that have
like that, have made it even

more complex and they have done
like multiple and then like

Fidenza and archetype background
and like an auto background and

they have like full-cac TV and
in the TV is something there's

some people that like, have like
six or seven or eight NFTs all

in there, I probably would have
been more complex.

Speaker 1: That's a pretty
smooth bet though.

That's a pretty good one to
have, like pretty good combo to

have though.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.

I appreciate that.

I'm ready for the Fidenza piece
to get to my house.

It's signed by Tyler Hobbs.

It's done.

It's done.

Speaker 1: So I can't Absolutely
.

We got it.

We're definitely going to be
doing one of these again.

I just got, I got a feeling.

Speaker 2: Yeah, good, oh, look
anytime in and kind of the

pleasure is online.

Truly, I love talking about
this stuff.

I love talking to people who
are excited about the space.

I mean, yeah, I'm a talker, I'm
an extrovert, I like talking to

people and I like talking about
something passionate about in

crypto.

Yeah, it's one of the things
I'm most passionate about in the

world.

So, thank you so much for the
pleasure of being able to come

on the podcast.

Speaker 1: Absolutely, man.

Hey, you have a great rest of
your day.

Hang on All right.

Thank you, you as well.

Thank you for listening to the
Schiller Vaulted Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

As we close out today's episode
, don't forget to subscribe to

our podcast on your favorite
audio platform and leave a five

star review to ensure you never
miss an episode and to help

others discover the Vaulted
podcast as well.

To stay updated on upcoming
episodes, as well as our weekly

Twitter space schedule, be sure
to follow us on X, formerly

known as Twitter, at Schiller
XYZ.

Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember, if

you're looking for it art is
everywhere and it's up to us to

appreciate and explore the
emotions it brings to our lives.

Until next time, this is Boone
signing off.