Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to Vaulted, a

web 3 podcast series from the
Shuler Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on November 21, 2022

and features Alex Zender, cto of
Ledger, which is one of the

largest hardware wallet
companies in the industry.

In this episode, we explore the
shift from speculation to value

creation in the crypto market,
the power of decentralized

ecosystems, the challenges of
adoption, the potential for

crypto to become integrated with
everyday devices and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now let's grab some coffee and
dive into this conversation with

Alex GM.

Alex, how are you, man, doing?

Well, how about yourself?

It's good, you know, today, I
think I tweeted out today my

schedule is podcast, haircut,
call duty and World Series

baseball.

Speaker 2: So it's a I am
jealous, I'm jealous, I'm very

jealous.

My schedule today, I think, was
customer calls.

Early morning strategy session
budget livecast.

Speaker 1: Wow, okay, well, I'm
glad to be ending it on a good

note, right?

Well, for those who just want
to let you give a brief intro

man, who, alex?

Who are you?

What do you do?

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah,
absolutely so.

As I mentioned, I'm a techie.

I spend most of my career in
software At Ledger, I'm

responsible for Ledger
Enterprise.

So we have you know, at Ledger,
we have two primarily focuses.

We have Ledger for the retail
audience, which are, we're,

incredibly well known for.

The company's been in the
business for about eight years.

The Ledger Nano has been the
most successful hardware wallets

, the best known, and that's
what the company is really

fundamentally known for.

We continue to drive that
business, but we've also been

evolving a lot of different
capabilities in the enterprise

space, in the V2B space, and
what we do there is

fundamentally very
straightforward.

We work with large
organizations to help them serve

retail audiences that are
interested in crypto, which has

been pretty rewarding for us
because it helps the ecosystem

overall.

Right.

Like you can't you can't
continue to scale the retail

audience if you don't bring them
the services that they need and

want, if you don't do that, you
know, securely and predictably,

and that's really our primary
objective at Enterprise.

So here I'm responsible for the
business unit.

I also do a bit on platforms,
so kind of the wallet strategy

across the organization.

Prior to Ledger I've had a
couple of different functions.

I'm American, living in Paris,
which has been quite interesting

for me and the majority of my
previous career.

I was in the capital markets,
financial services.

I was with NASDAQ for 12 years
before that in New York, where I

was responsible for primarily
focused on emerging tech.

That's how I really got into
the crypto sector.

So a lot of distributed systems
, a lot of predictive analytics,

distributed compute, cloud, and
then Bitcoin started to come

around.

We were very much focused on
DLT, distributed technology and

then I spent close to five years
pretty much banging my head

against the wall and trying to
gain adoption at the enterprise

level, at the institutional
level, which was fun, and then

two years ago I think, I kind of
made the final decision that I

was done trying to get adoption
going at large organizations.

So it was time to try my hand
at disruption and dive into a

crypto native org Ledger came
knocking.

And it's been a trip ever since
quite enjoyable.

Speaker 1: That is, yeah, that's
quite the experience, except

for the five years of banging
your head on the wall that's

trying to yell into the void of
people who just don't see it.

It's challenging and I'll tell
you as someone who I've been in

the crypto, so just to give you
a brief notice, not just like my

experience here is that I came
in here right around the Beeple

sale back in March of 21.

So before that I wasn't really
even crypto, or I wasn't even

curious about it.

I didn't really see a use case
in my opinion.

I know there were, but I just
didn't see it before NFTs, a lot

of the cultural artifacts and
programmable smart contracts,

and that's really what got me
super excited about this and the

fact that you could attach
something emotional to something

that was inherently
non-emotional and that to me,

was like this could be the
cultural layer of crypto, and

this is the part that I want to
play in.

But I'll tell you, when I first
found out about it, I texted

the only friend that I could
have known what the hell I was

talking about.

I didn't really understand how
to articulate my thoughts in the

beginning.

I didn't understand how to
drive a conversation around,

asking questions around, really
how onboarding is supposed to be

done in my opinion.

In the beginning, I just
shouted at them and they left

way more confused than when I
first started talking to them,

and so over time, I started to
refine my approach and realize

that onboarding can only really
at least for me personally,

because it's my belief that
we're still so early is that it

has to be done with only people
that I know, because I know what

their interests are.

I can tailor an experience to
them, I can tailor a very

plausible what-if where it makes
sense to them and they can get

some buy-in.

Speaker 2: But yeah, 100% and I
agree with you 10-fold.

So we're firm believers in
education and we have a wide

range of different education
programs that we continue to

deploy and evolve.

But one of the biggest
challenges, I think, for me,

coming from the financial sector
, is that you don't have a

market segment to address.

It's incredibly bespoke.

Even the user base comes from
all different blocks of life

perspectives, different reasons.

So, it's a very interesting,
super dynamic and an extremely

complex ecosystem, and it really
is more an art than a science

as to how do you position
yourself as a company, how do

you create value, who's your
audience and I think to your

point, being able to take the
right stance for crypto and how

the ecosystem as a whole evolves
, and how do you engage with the

various communities in this
space.

It's been super interesting for
me.

And then the next challenge is
how do you work with other

companies and organizations that
have something of value?

They know how to build, they
know how to create value, but

it's such a long bridge to get
from the standard value creation

mechanisms that we're
accustomed to in Web 2 and

existing systems to how do I
create something that's going to

be valuable to thousands of
different communities that are

evolving there, and none of
those communities has the

hundreds of millions of users.

They're all a couple hundred
thousand, a couple thousand, but

in totality the ecosystem is
huge, but it's super fragmented.

It's an extremely interesting
problem set and I think ledger,

in my personal opinion and one
of the reasons that I'm here,

does that extremely well,
because they've been early and

the brand is associated with
security, self sovereignty and

kind of betting on yourself as
an individual at the end of the

day, and that seems to really
resonate with the wider audience

of crypto and not necessarily
each individual community.

Speaker 1: Dude, yeah, that was
beautifully said.

There's a lot that I want to
touch on here and, coming from

the retail side, I own two
ledger NanoXs.

So one because I knew it's what
needed to happen, but number

two, I got one of those crypto
tag and this is not a sponsored

podcast, by the way.

I got one of those crypto tag
thing where you just it's a

steel plate to put in your seed
phrase and I did the whole

ritual of that where I, when I
wrote it down, after I did it, I

actually burned the card to
where it was only in the crypto

steel plate.

But I'm like there's always
this looming question did I do

it right?

Did I put it in right?

Is this like what if I had to
put in my seed phrase and then

all of the valuable assets I put
in my hardware wallet are gone,

and so I actually bought
another ledger just as a backup

to make sure that I had it right
, I'm like, okay, now I can

breathe, I'm good.

But it's a whole different
learning curve and something

that I really would like to know
a little bit more about is that

because, on the personal level,
there are a lot more resources

today than there was back in
2021.

But there's also a lot more
disingenuous people in the space

than there were in 2021.

So I know how long it took for
me to even get to the point

where I felt comfortable just
purchasing Ethereum on Coinbase

and I got to imagine persuading
companies who don't really have

like trying to convince
companies at that scale has got

to be one of the biggest
challenges.

So one thing I wanted to ask is
like what's been the biggest

pushback or kind of how have you
all approached strategy when it

comes to these larger companies
?

Because the individual level is
just, quite frankly, it's

really fucking hard to do.

Speaker 2: Now I love the
question.

First of all, thank you for
being a customer and a user.

We're always very, very
thankful.

And then I think you kind of
phrased it extremely well and

medically.

So I want to capture that and
I'll do a little bit of a sales.

It's just a small one, but I
think I'll get it out of the way

and then that'll be it.

But you kind of framed it very
well, right?

You know, on the individual
side, on the retail side, right,

you go through this experience
and you said you had like your

own little ritual.

Right, that you do to set
yourself up.

We call that a ceremony, so we
also have a word for it.

Right, but there is there is a
threshold, there is a there's a

tangible barrier to entry.

Right, and frankly, there's two
kind of two Dimensions to that.

So ledgers primary role and
responsibility as a company

Right, is to make sure that that
barrier to entry is as small as

possible.

Right, so we want the user
experience.

Right, and the individual
experience to be as frictionless

as possible.

So we gain adoption into crypto
.

Right, that's the number one
priority Hands down.

Now there is a balance there.

Right, because you don't want
to also completely remove the

ritual.

Speaker 1: Right, because there
is a special value.

It's yeah right Like there's a
certain value associated with.

Speaker 2: You know it's a
common bias, called a continuity

bias, right, like, once you do
an investment, right, then you

start to justify that investment
you use.

So it's a common human trait.

And it's not.

You know, it's not.

Manipulation is just how we
behave as humans, but at the

same time, that that barrier to
entry is associated and is there

because of the security element
, right?

So, if you want
self-sovereignty, if you want

self-custody, if you want
control of your own digital

identity and digital assets,
yeah, there is a price to pay.

Right like, there is a certain
thing that you have to do that

you didn't have to do when you
didn't care about those things

and you were delegating that to
Coinbase or to somebody else to

do it for you.

Yeah, but just like you do
today with a bank, right?

Yeah, so, and it's an important
thing to capture, right,

because it's now, it is a
different model and I also

appreciate, like, the level of
awareness that you had that,

right, if you had to back it up,
you have to think about it now,

you know, and and it's
challenging, right, yeah, you

know it's, it's, it's rewarding,
but it's challenging.

And then what would you?

What?

The way we think about it on
the on the enterprise side is

you take that problem set From
an individual perspective and

you look at it from a team's
perspective, right?

So now, what if there's five
people right that are required

to manage processes related to
you know, and I'm not sure how,

how crypto wealthy you are?

But think about, you know,
there's 500 million on the

account right, or a couple
billion on the account right,

and you have a team of operators
that are actually, you know,

managing processes Related to
moving these assets on a daily

basis.

Hmm, right, and the thing that
people.

Yeah, the thing that people
don't always realize about

crypto which is an important
distinction is you know we, you

know ledger does hardware
wallets and we do hardware.

But but and that's associated
with cold storage, which is

important you need to protect
your keys, right, so nobody can

take your keys.

But most of the attacks that we
see and most of the compromises

that we see in the ecosystem
today have nothing to do with

somebody stealing your keys.

Majority of them have to do
with man in the middle, attacks,

social engineering, fishing
attacks where you're signing

something with your own keys,
but what it is that you're

signing isn't actually what you
think you're signing.

That's right.

So it's manipulation of the
actual payload itself.

So ledger is important in that
regard, because we see that we

have a Secure device and a
secure screen that you can

validate exactly what you're
signing.

We take that same model and
we'll apply it to organizations

where we have full what you see
is what you sign capabilities

for secure governance.

So every time an operator
approves the transaction or, you

know, validates as in any way
she perform, we give them full,

secure view on the display using
our own hardware, which is the

differentiator, and that's the,
that's the premise.

We kind of take that single
pain point, that individual

experience, and we allow
companies to scale that out.

So we, we wrap, we wrap a SAS
base platform around that.

So you got, you know, seamless
user interfaces, full

dashboarding, full reporting
capabilities, all your

governance is taken care of.

And then on top of that we
build a flexible workflow with

the hardware device To be able
to then enable an operating team

, as scale, to manage crypto
assets.

Speaker 1: Got you so that, no,
that's, that's super in-depth.

Thank you for that explanation.

The the question I have also
from that is like what come when

I, when I was looking at the
website of like ledger

Enterprise, what companies are
you typically targeting?

What companies have an interest
for this?

Like that was the big question.

I'm like is it just a bunch of
people building an NFT project?

Because I saw that you had that
.

I'm like that's cool, but
surely this is much bigger than

that.

You know, I'd like to like
broaden my scope a little bit

here, just to understand that.

Speaker 2: No, totally, and I
think it's a great question.

I would say, you know I will.

I'll go back to my previous
statement.

As you know, it's a diverse
ecosystem, right?

So it is very difficult to find
the right market segment and be

like, alright, like this is our
box, like this is what we

optimize for.

So what we really have to do is
we have to partner and we have

to build.

So I think of ledger enterprise
as a toolkit okay, toolkit and a

Capability and a knowledge base
to do solution engineering with

our partners, right.

So there's there's probably you
know three things that we do

fundamentally better than
anybody else in the space

security, yeah, that can your
keys.

Secure governance, giving you
that secure workflow capability

on top of your key management,
right, and then just general

crypto savvy ability to Interest
back the blockchain, gather the

data presented in the proper
way, understand market movements

, advise, build solutions.

So we use those capabilities to
build Point solutions for

specific use cases with our
clients as it evolves and you

know there's really been a
pretty interesting Movement in

the ecosystem which we were very
much exposed to.

So ledger enterprise We've been
around for about four years.

We laugh that we're kind of the
best kept secret of ledger

because the brand is so strong
with retail and the wallet.

I'm enterprise, you know,
hasn't hasn't been spoken about

that that much, primarily
because we work with very large

clients and very large asset
allocations, right.

So you know, over the four
years we've had assets on the

platform in tens of billions In
crypto.

We do, you know, hundreds of
billions in annual turnover,

yeah, on the platform and we're
growing quite rapidly.

So it really started with
crypto native players.

So mostly custodians and
exchanges you know we have, I

think you know we talk about two
customers in general, as a

crypto comm is a very large
early stage client of ours.

We've been working with them
for many years.

They've grown up with our
platform underneath their

exchange for custody, kamaynu,
which is a well-known regulated

custodian in London.

There's another long-term
client and actually a joint

venture between us, numerah and
coin shares and and they've been

with us for a long time and
also build a solution on top of

our platform and that's how we
we learn and evolve the

technology and build the
different tool sets, and we've

seen a tremendous amount of
adoption over that time in

crypto native financial
institutions.

We have neobanks using the
platform, we have other

custodians, other exchanges, but
mostly focused on securing your

assets.

Right, that was the primary
value proposition.

In the last two years, we've
seen a very strong shift from

securing your assets to a wide
explosion of different use cases

.

Yeah, which has been, which has
been incredible.

Incredible for us because it
really makes you take a step

back and think, okay, like, well
, what do we do right, where do

we focus?

Where do we invest?

You know we always have
engineering resources that are

there, are constraints, right,
and the.

The shift for me has really been
from, you know, let's make sure

we protect the Ethereum and the
Bitcoin as you, as you manage

it, to what do we do with our
assets?

How do we interact with these
distributed ecosystems in a wide

range of different ways.

So the explosion in DeFi has
been super interesting.

Yeah, we have a, you know we
have a smart contract

interaction framework that we've
put in place for the same,

governance controls that allow
our customers to be able to

interact with any smart contract
in the ecosystem, be able to

see what that smart contract
does.

You can whitelist your smart
contract addresses so you can

really Protect and manage the
risk as you do that because, as

you know, a lot of these smart
contracts also to get

compromised.

It has been quite a few
challenges in that regard.

We are working actively on NFTs
cases.

We have launched ledger
enterprise creates.

Early last year saw that yeah.

And that's gotten a lot of
traction.

Actually, and fundamentally,
the principle doesn't change its

security, its governance.

For the NFTs use cases, we do
treasury management, which is

very important because to run
NFTs, you need crypto, you need

to be able to manage a treasury,
and then, on the On the tail of

that, we also support all NFTs
use cases, so we allow you to

create and manage your NFTs
smart contracts securely.

We allow you to mince, we have
full API supports to automate

some of these capabilities,
right.

And then we generally build
with our, with our customers and

with our partners in that
regard, because, as you can

imagine, the variability and
then, if you use cases today is

huge and you know.

And then many of our clients
come to us, say we want to do

something with NFTs, and when
you ask, okay, well, what do you

want to do, I'm like, well,
we're not sure we were gonna

figure it out together and, okay
, sign us up, why not?

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and
that's the biggest part.

You know that it's it's, it's
For me.

It's hard to onboard people
where we get them excited about

this, but them to not, but also
to for me to help people

understand that there is a big
paradigm shift that needs to

happen before you really start
doing something.

It's really hard to get people
to take off the rose-colored

glasses for just a second, put
the glasses on to bring them in,

but then take them off to like
okay, now let's think about what

we actually do with this,
Because the one thing that I

always get turned off by whether
it's a company, whether it's a

project, whatever the case may
be is that it's Web 2 values

wrapped in Web 3 technology For
the people who are doing

something that are truly
innovative, to see okay, how can

we use smart contracts to get
back to the original community?

How can we use some of these
tools and protocols to actually

enrich the experience in a way
that's never been done before,

or a different way that it
solves a problem that we've been

looking to solve for 10, 20, 30
, 40 years, right?

So that's a lot of the use cases
that I see that are super

interesting.

Now, one thing that you've
touched on that I wanted to just

expand on is that the way it's
really cool, the way you guys

are looking at it as more of
like a partnership versus like

we're going to sell you a
product.

Because I see that also that
same approach being taken with

Polygon, with Foyz being at the
helm and one of my favorite

people here and the way he's
approaching that, is like game

studios aren't just going to
like full on, adopt this

technology and they don't know
who to hire, they don't know,

like, what's legitimate, what's
not, and there's no strategy

behind that.

So I think it's a really cool
thing to see a larger company is

kind of taking more of like a
hey, we have the resources,

we're not going to like we're
going to keep these guys here,

but we're going to partner with
you to build something cool,

versus you just kind of
siphoning off our talent.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I
mean 100%.

And then for me, like that's
hugely rewarding just as an

individual, and this is the type
of engagement that I want to be

able to have.

So we now we support Polygon on
the platform, we support them

to use cases around Polygon.

And I think you know kind of to
expand on my previous kind of

trends over the last four years,
frankly, I think this recent

market contraction is actually
doing good things for you know,

for the entire ecosystem.

I mean, it's not, it's not
super pleasant, right, I think

it hurts everybody to a certain
extent, but there's good things,

there's a silver lining, and
the way my party line recently

has been that the observation is
that we're moving from

speculation.

There's been a lot of
speculatory activities, right,

and a lot of growth and movement
in those speculatory activities

which, by the way I come from
you know capital markets

background.

Speculation is good, like
there's nothing wrong with

speculation.

It helps create efficient,
efficient markets, right, you

know you need speculation, right
, it's an important part, but

you shouldn't lead with
speculation.

And that's where the crypto
ecosystem has been a little bit

different from the traditional
kind of finance, right,

traditional finance first there
were railroads right, then there

was, you know hotels then.

So there was huge projects that
required funding.

That then created the genesis
for the markets and the capital

markets that we see today.

But first there was the value
creation In crypto.

We were a little bit twisted
right.

First there was speculation,
speculatory activities, there

was a boom and defy and now
we're seeing that slow shift

from speculation to value
creation and to me that is

hugely exciting because that's
exactly where we want to be and

that's exactly where ledger has
positioned itself to be most

effective and that's why we want
to.

You know, we want to work with
our partners.

Right For speculation, you give
them a tool.

It's quick time to market
because you have, you know about

a six months to 12 months
window before the network either

stabilizes or disappears.

Right, so your monetization
window is relatively low.

You want to quickly go to the
market.

You do, you know you do your
thing and then you move on to

the next one.

Right With value creation, you
make an investment, you build

it's for longer periods of time.

That's why we're super bullish
on Ethereum.

The merge was huge for us, very
happy that everything went well

and that we're progressing
nicely on proof of stake, and

EVM is basically kind of for us
has been a big focus.

We've fully committed and
deployed staking solutions on

Polkadot, solana, polygon and
Ethereum others coming quickly

and we're doubling down on NFT
use cases.

And the most beautiful thing
like this is, this is the

perfect synthesis of the two,
and this is what I tell myself

is why the strategy is working.

We were working with a partner,
a company I don't know if you

know them in the US, they're
actually been getting quite a

bit of publicity a company
called one of.

Speaker 1: I've heard the name,
but I'll be frank with you, I

don't have.

I'd be lying if I said I had a
clue of what they did.

No worries.

Speaker 2: Check them out.

Super, super exciting company
focused on NFTs really

interesting, strong backers and
we're working with them to

develop their NFT use cases to
give them a secure model for

operating their drops and, at
the same time, they're going to

be getting Ethereum in that
process right.

So they're going to need to or
actually their own Polygon and

Ethereum both they're going to
get the crypto to, you know, to

fund the operations and you
guess they need funding.

And then, secondarily, they're
going to be receiving payments

for their NFTs and crypto, so
they're going to be having a

treasury.

And then, the same time as
they're building their NFT

portfolio and NFTs capabilities
they're talking to us about well

, what do we do?

Because we want to participate
in the network, we want to stake

right, and we want to do it
properly.

And how do we develop that
capability?

So to me, it's like that's the
perfect example, right?

One client creating value
through NFTs, building real

things for real communities, for
real audience, and then taking

the proceeds from that and
properly investing that into

proof of stake, which is then
also supporting the network

itself, and let's generate and
return on investment.

Why not?

Speaker 1: I know.

Yeah, I mean that's a, it's
part of it.

No, I love that man.

That's really one thing I took
from this whole blurb is the

interesting part.

So I didn't.

I always learned something when
from people who have done this

longer than me, like yourself,
and like it's really interesting

to hear around the around how
capital markets are built, I had

no idea that that was like the
foundation of what that was

built on it was railroads and
hotels, which is what

essentially created the need for
a capital market, and here it's

all speculation and then it's
so.

It's interesting how it's
backwards, but it's interesting,

really interesting how it still
works.

You know what I mean.

Like it doesn't really need to
follow one specific model in

order to work here.

Now I'm going to change
directions here a little bit.

So the one interesting part,
what made me really bullish on

Ledger was hearing Ian Rodgers'
interview with Kevin Rose and

one of the questions that Kevin
asked.

And this is just the inner nerd
in me that I just have to ask

if this is something that y'all
took away from this.

So Kevin was talking about you
know a lot of the hardware

technology that's in these
devices.

It's incredibly secure.

Do you guys see a moment or a
time where this gets integrated

into like, into smartphones,
like.

Is this a point where like this
becomes part of, like our

mobile devices, and it becomes a
part of some regular devices

that we all use today?

Speaker 2: I mean, I think, like
you know, there's no conjecture

there.

That's a natural progression,
right?

And the interesting piece of
this is, you know, ledger as a

company came from one hypothesis
, and the hypothesis was that

when the first Nano was being
designed here in Paris, it's.

The hypothesis was that the
current states of the devices

that we use for Web2, right, our
laptop or browser or cell phone

are not sufficiently secure to
support the movement of value

that we're going to see in Web3.

Right, right.

So that was the very simple
hypothesis.

It was proven to be true, right,
we sold over 5 million of those

devices from that point on, and
currently 50 to 20% of all

crypto sits on a Ledger wallet,
which is, you know, which is a

pretty significant percentage
from an allocation perspective.

So, you know, that was the
right hypothesis.

We can now firmly say that,
obviously, you know, there'll be

more growth.

That's great.

But as there's more demand,
right, as adoption continues to

increase, there is going to be a
trajectory from, you know,

towards ease of use, right.

And now, when we say, you know
what is the mission for Ledger,

like, what is our North Star?

It's security, right, with the
best possible user experience.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: And to the extent
that we can continue to deliver

the security right at the same
level, the same threshold, and

continue to improve the user
experience incrementally, as the

you know, the surrounding
technology ecosystem allows us

to do right.

Yeah, that's the, you know,
that's the art, that's how you

thread the needle right.

What is the current state of
tech today and how do you

balance security with ease of
use for any given point in time?

Because, honestly, on the
adoption curve, crypto, we have

10, 20 years to go right as it
continues to scale exponentially

.

And in 10 to 20 years, these
days, the cycles of technology,

the cycles of hardware, the
cycles of, you know, the

capabilities on the chips and
the types of displays, on the

types of devices that we're
going to have in our hands,

nobody knows right, like, how do
you hypothesize around that?

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's one
of those questions that I had to

ask because it raised the
eyebrow.

It raised my eyebrows a little
bit when he pitched that idea.

I said that sounds pretty neat
because you know, I still get

very nervous, like when I'm not
even with MetaMask and

everything in with Ledger Live
on my phone.

It's still like a question at
Loomz, you know, it's still like

.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I get it and,
to be honest with you, I'm just

as much of a fanboy in that
regard as you are.

Like, ian is incredible.

Kevin was a longtime favorite
of mine when I was spending a

ton of time out in California,
and the interesting concept for

me is this is one of the reasons
why I joined Ledger and I was

super excited to do so.

I'm a software guy, right Like
I've been in this building.

I came up in the web bubble,
right.

So I kind of saw the evolution
of the web space as my first job

, and when I joined Ledger, I
was looking at the technology

stack.

I was trying to look at the
company and see how it would be

working in this context, and I
became very quickly aware that,

honestly, this is the only
experience, the only company

that I've ever engaged with that
does three things extremely

well.

Hardware yeah, so every single
hardware wallet that we've

distributed so far as
manufactured and put together in

France in a very secure
facility, it's usually efficient

, like it's incredible when you
visit what they're able to do

there.

So the hardware aspect is locked
up, and then we also do

firmware, which is also
critically important and very

important to the point that
you're making, because firmware

can run on any hardware and
that's where the security really

comes in right.

So the firmware aspect of it so
being able to write operating

systems at the low level for the
designate your hardware on the

chipset with very secure
practices that's really the

differentiator, because you can
take that firmware and you can

put it on a chipset inside a
phone, you can put it on a

chipset inside an IoT device,
you can put it on a chipset

inside a laptop right, as long
as it's compatible.

And that capability, the
ability to write your own

operating system, so you have
the end to end stack fully

secured, that's unique.

I have not personally
encountered that anywhere else.

And then we do software right,
and when you build software on

your own firmware, the security
constraints and the security

concerns kind of float away and
you're able to be really free in

the tool sets that you're
building and the user experience

that you're bringing to user
base, because the security

constraint is already solved for
with the firmware piece Got it.

Speaker 1: That makes a lot.

Thank you for breaking that
down.

That was something that, as
someone who loves the shiny new

object I'm a shiny new object
syndrome guy, you know so it's

nice to hear some of the inner
workings of how the stacks on

top of each other.

You open up a new perspective.

Now, one thing that I know that
, based on some of our previous

interaction, or what I know from
you, is that you know we're

both trying to onboard our
parents.

So I actually had you'll
probably enjoy this so for the

longest time when I was
podcasting, my parents really

didn't understand anything of
what was going on.

They thought I was, you know,
playing with magical internet

money that didn't really exist
and that these weird you know

JPEG like tokens that point to
JPEG things were.

They just didn't understand.

Specifically, aren't crypto
punks Like?

I still can't convince my mom
of why crypto punks are valuable

.

It's just, it's something
that's completely lost on her

and I've given up on trying to
explain it.

But the point I'm making is that
when I finally, you know, made

my first major flip where I was
able to, you know, knock out a

good size of debt that I had,
that was when I started paying

attention, and the last time I
had a conversation with my

mother was you know, okay,
what's this wallet thing?

Right, like she, we, we, we
finally started to have the

wallet conversation and you know
, custodial versus non-custodial

, and you know hot wallet versus
cold storage wallet and all of

these things, and one of her
takes was that she's like I

still don't understand any of
this.

All right, like, but what I'm
trying to do now is ensure that,

if this does become an
investment that our financial

advisor says, hey, in, in five
to 10 years, you need to put

some assets here.

I don't want to feel like I've
just completely missed

everything.

So, when it comes to have to
have a significant risk, when it

comes to I've talked to a new
Having devices where our parents

can access these crypto assets,
how far of a like, what kind of

time horizon Are you thinking
for when it comes to that?

That's a great question.

Speaker 2: I, I guess Like it's,
it's a hard, it's a hard one to

answer because I think it has
to do with and to me it really

does have to do with the demand
aspect of it, right?

So the the new adopter
threshold that has to be

overcome is different for every,
every single person, right?

So we have early adopters.

Right, you have late adopters,
and that's a personality trait.

Frankly, in my experience, you
know, some of it has to do with

age, right, because as we, as we
fill our heads over time with

certain preconceptions, it gets
harder to turn them over.

But I've seen, you know, I've
seen people, you know,

irrelevant of age, being able to
pick up new things like that,

just because that's their mental
states and that's how they, you

know, that's how they deal with
the world.

So everybody has their own
adoption cycle.

But for me, what it really has
to do is there needs to be a

balance of value versus, you
know, versus barrier to entry.

Mmm, right, so it's a curve,
it's no, it's a.

It's a curve, right.

So as we increase the amount of
value that can we can bring to

a wider range of users through
crypto, right, that resonates

with them.

So, for your mom, potentially
right, it's inflation, right.

So how do I protect my life
savings from the inflationary

Situation that we currently have
in the traditional financial

system.

Right, that might be the driver
, right, yeah.

But what we need to make sure
and do and this is really kind

of how I try to synthesize my
job to myself right, is my job

is to work with value, creating
organizations and teams to make

sure that we make it as easy as
possible For somebody to create

that right point of value for
your mom to say, oh shit, I need

a nano.

Yeah, right, and that's a game
of numbers, right, like, the

more we do on one side for value
creation, right, the more

diversity we can bring there,
the easier we make that

capability, the more value gets
funneled into the ecosystem, the

more people we're going to
unlock.

Right, and it's, you know, it's
a standard network effects model

and if done correctly, right,
it will have multiplier effects

as it starts to attract more and
more right.

So there's a gravitational pull
to this whole thing and that's

what really gets me, you know,
super excited to get up in the

morning and come to work and
have my early Asian client calls

To be able to say, alright,
like, what are we doing today to

make it as easy as possible not
to only consume the value but

to actually create it and bring
it to these networks.

And that's not only companies
on an organization.

That could be individual
creators that we work with, that

could be small teams right, but
it needs to be able to scale

right because majority of the
audience that's there.

You know 95% of the retail
audience needs scalable

solutions because there's
billions of them right and

that's the.

You know, that's the kind of
that's the game that we play

every day.

Speaker 1: Man, that sounds like
a fun game to play.

Man, I'm loving every day it's,
and it sounds like something

that's pretty, pretty endless,
at least right now when we still

have so much legwork to do.

You know that.

That's because, like with me,
that's why excited me about the

space is that the current model
of web 2 was Very the

opportunity felt dried up.

You know what I mean.

And it just you know all of the
things that were like value,

like that, were value ads, like
five to ten years ago.

They're just, they're just a
common out, like a common part

of what we're doing, you know.

And so that's what I think
excited me so much is that there

is actually so much work to do
here and there is so much

opportunity of people would
literally just step in and say I

want to do this and watch the
opportunity just surround them

right yeah, absolutely well, and
that's kind of the thing.

Speaker 2: Right, and the, the
diversity of use cases is really

, you know, almost limitless.

In this case, like we want, I
want my mom never to stand a DMV

line again.

Right, because she can go on
her, on her, on her phone, on

her device and securely, through
a website, be able to renew her

driver license.

Right, because there's
assurance between the two parts

that she is who she is and and
there's a secure interaction

that's being enabled.

Right, I don't want to stand in
a passport line anymore.

Right, like I want to come in,
I want to, you know, touch my

secure device To the, you know,
to the border system and walk

right through.

Right, and these are just, you
know, some of the more future

Looking use cases around
identity that that people are

working on, but this is all
within our grasp.

And then something as simple as
, like, if you're a coin

collector or Stamp collector,
right, because fundamentally

right, these are this is what
NFTs really are.

It's, it's a digitization of
the, of the, you know,

collection, the ecosystem which
has been around for, you know,

for hundreds of years, but, you
know, but now there's open

markets, it's, it's an easier
way of Collecting.

That's much more social.

Speaker 1: It's a lot more fun
too.

I mean, I think I think it's
what.

I think it's the biggest
element of what people like when

I, when I first came in here, I
didn't realize how much fun I

was actually gonna have.

You know that it just the
amount of people, the amount of

brain level, the amount of brain
activity that goes on here, and

the amount of Humor that's also
combined with all of the, all

of the good things that are
happening here.

That's, I think, what really
made me the most excited.

And like to wrap things up,
though, to your point, like, I

think Because I'll just some
full context I hadn't really

experienced any financial
markets on my own For the past,

you know, because the last time
we were in a downturn of a

market I was still in high
school and that burden was on my

parents and I.

You know they worked really hard
to make it to where I didn't

really feel any of the effects
of it.

I noticed a change in their
mood.

I noticed I noticed a lot of
other things happening, but I

was relatively unaffected.

So this is actually my first
time in a down market on my own

completely, and so it's been a
very interesting learning curve,

because I've only known on my
own up, only just in general,

not even crypto, just it's.

It's been a healthy market
startups making, you know,

raising a lot of capital, doing
good thing, you know all of this

stuff.

And then, but then you throw in
the madness and the insanity of

2021, of, you know, nft summer
I.

It got to a point where I didn't
really know what was going on,

but there was something telling
me that, like I'm just exhausted

, this isn't sustainable, like
this is not.

This has got to end.

And I just said, man, there's
so many grifters and there's so

many just you know disingenuous
opportunities that are coming

into the space right now.

I cannot wait for a bear market
.

So I'm just like man, give me
some equilibrium, give me some

balance.

Like when the markets went to
shit, there was this massive

amount of pain and cope and and
all this stuff and I'm like,

okay, when is this going to be
over?

But I feel like in the past two
weeks to a month, crypto's kind

of warped my time time
perspective.

But it feels like we're at that
stage where a lot of the people

have exited, a lot of the, a
lot of the pain has left, even

though it's still painful, but
there's a lot more good ideas.

It's almost like people are
like regrouping, if that makes

sense.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I love that
, I love that observation.

So I generally take a have a,
you know, take a technical

outlook to some of these things.

Like as an architect, you
always think about systems and

whenever, whenever you build a
system at scale, you always have

unintended consequences.

You know any self regulating
system is going to come with its

own set of issues that you
never anticipated or imagined.

So, to your point, all the hacks
you're saying, all the you know

, all the manipulation that's
out there, these are unintended

consequences.

So, when you test the system,
you have to put it in a you know

, you have to put it in a
situation of stress.

You have to stress the system
to test it and, generally

speaking, if you design your
system well, it'll start to

revert to its intended state
under conditions of stress,

which is which is kind of, I
think, what we're seeing now.

Right, so we have this system
and these are, these are all

connected things.

Right?

So you know, and kind of to map
my own journey around this, and

I think we have very relatively
similar journeys is, you know,

with web two, it was all about
information.

Right, so you can discover new
things, you can learn, like you

don't have to go to, you know,
bars and noble to buy a book

anymore.

Right, you can do it online on
your own time.

And that increased
proliferation information where

people had access.

That was great.

And then we had, you know, we
had crypto.

Crypto did the same thing to
value, right, like you no longer

had to, you know, sign into
your each rate account or go to

your bank, right, you could.

You know you could go to
Coinbase, you could go to

cryptocom.

You know you can go to Binance
and do it quickly and easily and

in real time, right, so that
also, for better or worse,

increase people's exposure to
that model.

And now you can take, you know,
if you were, if you were

successful in that in that world
, or, you know, just figure it

out your own way.

Now you can go and you know you
can spend 10 Ethereum on an NFT

, right, and where else, like,
in what point in time could

somebody in our position be able
to say, look, I'm going to blow

, you know, 50k on a, you know,
on a piece of art that I feel is

important to me because of the
community that I'm a part of,

right, and the interactions I
can have as a result, and use it

as an avatar, right, like it's
a completely ridiculous concept.

And then what's next after that
, which is super, you know,

super cool and exciting times
and, to your point, like we

stress, the system over the last
six months.

But I think it's, you know.

For me, the takeaway is that
that stress is actually letting

it show its true colors and the
core intent.

And now the evolution of NFTs,
the build that of the

communities and also the
appetite for education, which is

something that we're seeing go
up quite a bit.

People want to educate
themselves.

We have major players in the
ecosystem saying hey guys, look,

systems that stress we don't
know what done, and then the

consequences are going to be
protect yourself, go the self,

cost that you're out.

Right, because then the only
person you blame is yourself.

Right, like when you, when you
have coin base publicly saying

you know, get an annual, put
your assets on there, because we

don't know what might happen to
us tomorrow.

Right, right, and that's the
right.

That's what the system, that's
what you know, distributed

ecosystems, that's what crypto
was designed for.

Right is you take your own
destiny into your own hands

because you don't know what
could happen to these systems

that were designed by other
people for other purposes.

Speaker 1: That's a great point,
and I just want to lastly touch

on I know this is a podcast
about ledger, but I really I

enjoy how Coinbase is still
sticking to a lot of the values

that, like a lot of the crypto
native values, even though they

are a publicly traded company.

They are, like you know, so
like they're doing what they

have to do, but they're also
still fighting really big

battles, like with the whole
tornado cash sanctions they're.

They're deploying a lot of
efforts towards supporting that.

I mean, or I mean, I guess, to
provide, you know, resources for

the defense of that, which is a
very big overstep, in my

opinion, of the government on
that one.

But it's cool to I just I say
all that where it's like, even

though they're in this position,
they're like, hey, you still

need to do this because, not,
you know, not your keys, not

your crypto, like it's, you need
to do this just in case,

because, at the end of the day I
mean, I learned this from one

of my great mentors is that,
like, a lot of this is still an

experiment.

You know, this is it, although,
even though there's just

massive amounts of value being
transferred on a daily basis

here, even in a, even in a
downturn, it's still an

experiment, right.

We still don't fully know it's
going to work out, right?

Speaker 2: So 100% belt and
suspenders, right, but you see,

you're never going to know and
we're big fans of theirs, right

frankly, and we partner up on
multiple initiatives together.

So we do, we do have a common
belief system in a lot of ways.

So it's and it's great to see,
you know, players be that

successful and still keep to the
, you know, to the general

attendance and principles, which
is just hugely important.

Speaker 1: Well, cool, alex,
this has been, this has been a

treatment.

Thanks for thanks for hopping
on and thanks for accommodating

the time zone and yeah, this has
been great man.

So, lastly, is there any any
place that if people wanted to

follow your journey or get in
touch with you where people

should go, or, like any, give a
shout out to anywhere?

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely,
you know.

Go go to ledgercom, right Very
simple access point.

Check us out.

There's a ton of educational
material out there.

Please, please, go get yourself
educated.

Watch our YouTube videos.

If you're a company and you're
listening to this, go to

ledgerinterprisecom, right.

That's as simple as that.

Check us out, drop us a note.

We're always open to talk and
build together.

That's the primary objective.

Thank you so much for having me
on.

This has been a blast, really
good way to finish off the week,

and I'm going to go and enjoy a
glass of wine in Paris.

Speaker 1: Do it man.

That sounds like a treat man,
but yeah, man, this has been,

this has been phenomenal.

It's a great is a great chat.

Speaker 2: Awesome.

Thank you so much for having me
.

We'll definitely.

I would love to do this again.

This is a lot of fun.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Thank you for listening to the
Schiller Vaulted podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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