Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the Shiller

Curated podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Han, a generative

artist pushing the boundaries of
what can be done through the

medium of computers.

Han is also the creator of
CryptoCubes, which have a place

in the LACMA permanent
collection.

In this episode, we explore the
concept and vision of

CryptoCubes, art as a smart
contract, the intersection of AI

and blockchain, and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now let's grab some coffee and
dive into this conversation with

Han GM.

Good evening, han.

How are you?

Hi, I'm good and you Doing good
.

Man, glad you can make it.

This is an honor to treat.

I'm happy to be able to sit
down and record with someone

halfway across the world and who
does a lot of really fun things

with code that I'm sure we'll
get into here in a bit.

Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for
having me.

Yeah, I think it will be fun,
Chad.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally man.

So it's really interesting how
the space started, and I'll tell

you for me personally, I'm not
sure how long you've been in the

crypto art and Web 3 scene.

Would love to maybe learn, get
to know more about that, but I

just didn't start learning about
generative art until last year,

and so you know.

Speaker 2: This is the.

There's so much to learn.

Speaker 1: Dude, there is so
much to learn and I think

honestly, I felt a little
intimidated by it for the

longest time because I was here
in early 2021 and watching all

the art blocks.

Speaker 2: I know, don't get it
in the bit, intimate it, it is

just fun.

It is so much to learn, but it
is fun.

Speaker 1: Totally, man, totally
.

Well, I'd love to maybe just
kind of start that with yourself

, like when did you get into, I
guess, when did you realize

coding was fun?

Or when did you start
learningstart to know that you

enjoyed code?

Speaker 2: So I'm a self-taught
creator.

Actually, I learned everything
by myself.

My background was I studied
architecture and what I was

always interested in different
ideas, some kind of like

Uncommonational ideas in my
projects always.

And yeah, I've been interested
since I was in high school and

yeah, basically I started in
high school.

Speaker 1: Started in high
school.

What were some of those like, I
guess, what were some of the

earlier projects that you worked
on?

What was like one of the first
things that you really put

together with code?

Speaker 2: With code, Just
simple game stuff.

I think everyone would know,
Like trying to learn the comways

game of life and looking at
rules, everything Just enjoying

those things and of course the
gaming and playing.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally Totally
, man.

What games did I actually found
this industry through video

games, so I'm very curious to
know what games did you play

growing up?

What was that Were you more of?

Speaker 2: a strategy shooter.

I actually had lots of games,
but I guess some kind of online

games have kind of special
meaning for me One where the

Warcraft and one was Silk Road.

It was an online game.

Just you have a character,
you're earning levels, buying

and selling stuff similar to the
no Fungible Tokens actually.

Speaker 1: Totally, man.

I see I was like a shooter guy.

I liked the.

I was like a Call of Duty Halo.

Speaker 2: The First War.

Speaker 1: You know, that was my
best.

Speaker 2: And also you were
looking for those hacks for the

games, just trying to make them.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, dude.

I mean I remember Because
that's how I started off in the

beginning I looked for all the
soft mods, like in Halo, where

you could shoot sniper bullets
out of your battle rifle and it

would shoot it like a turret.

All the spawn mods, the jumping
, the stand buying, zonalar, all

that stuff.

That was like my roots in the
online play, so I can definitely

.

Yeah, I'll be honest with you
on that one.

But yeah, dude, so it's cool to
hear some of that background.

Obviously, gaming's a big deal.

When it came to studying
architecture, did you finish

your degree?

Did you kind of leave early?

Yeah, we'd love to know a
little bit more about kind of

those early days.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I finished.

Actually, it was four years of
studying, but I finished in six

years.

The reason is I didn't fail,
but I was always looking for

some other things.

So I studied in Istanbul.

I was just alone and I was also
working, trying to earn some

money.

Yeah, I was always interested
in different things.

I was doing unconventional
ideas for the architecture

project.

Actually, in my graduation
project it sparked my first

actually non-fajr-token project,
which is CryptoCubes.

So I wanted to study
architecture, but not the aspect

of designing a building, just
organizing things and trying to

learn about the organization.

Speaker 1: Gotcha, gotcha and
did you, you know so, from the

transition from architecture to
making like CryptoCubes, did you

just go straight from school to
making art, or was it?

Did you kind of have?

Did you get to design anything,
I guess with your architecture

degree, like any sort of
building, any sort of?

Yeah?

Speaker 2: There was like design
competitions and for I attended

and Venice Biennale with one of
my video piece, and then there

was competitions with design.

I won several awards there and
I won the travel brand, so it

was always like different parts
of the architecture.

There was the designing stuff
designing like furniture,

designing a building in a
competition and attending some

kind of workshops.

Speaker 1: It was fun actually
Hell yeah, that sounds like a

lot of fun.

So I mean, and then you found,
and then obviously you found

this space, you know.

So I would love to kind of
maybe know how, like how did you

find it?

You know when and how did you
find it?

And little.

I'm just obsessed with like I
don't know.

My story was fascinating and so
I love to hear other people's

as well.

Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I also
have quite unique story as well

.

I am one of the lucky people
who, like, whose life changed

with those technology actually.

So back then in 2018, actually
I went homeless.

Oh, wow, it was like trying to
gather everything, working, like

sleeping in university and like
working.

After that, like pandemic
happened and I had to back, go

back to my hometown.

I was in Istanbul, but my
hometown is in the northeast of

Turkey, so it's a different
place.

You know, I've been always
interested in those digital

world, or you know, we talk
about gaming, everything, and I

was trying to find a platform to
sell my illustrations and like

those assets.

You know, like you are creating
a 3D model, you're creating an

illustration and like some kind
of templates.

I was trying to look for those
kind of platforms but it was

painful.

You know, trying to connect
your bank account, like giving

your credentials, everything,
like it was really painful.

Like even creating the work
takes much more, less time.

So, yeah, after that
researching, I found out about

NFTs.

I said, yeah, I was already
interested in crypto and I was

like, okay and yeah.

Then, as I told you, my first
project actually the initial

script started in my graduation
project.

I started to modify the script
of my first project and then

created crypto cubes.

Speaker 1: So that's rude, dude.

I mean it's cool to hear kind
of like the 180 of the story of

like going from like homeless to
like finding this technology

that has the ability to change
your life.

I mean it's incredibly special
and thanks for sharing that.

I'm you know.

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing
that, because it's probably not

easy to share at times.

Speaker 2: You know, it's
probably an interesting spot

Actually yeah, actually I'm
pretty open about it.

Like I did crazy stuff when I
was student in the university.

Yeah, I traveled Europe for a
year by playing trumpet and

everything.

I went homeless.

It was tough times but I was
always like in a good mode

actually.

Speaker 1: like I don't see
those times as something on the

painful times, because I was
young, yeah, yeah, man I mean,

and you know I've been sober for
10 years, you know as a

celebrity, so I've definitely
sometimes I it's always

interesting to hear people have
kind of had drastic kind of life

experiences like that.

You typically see an entirely
different perspective.

Yes, you know, it's easier to
see the good and everything when

you've kind of like seen a
pretty the opposite side of that

yeah definitely, you know, did
any of that kind of like?

I know you mentioned like it
wasn't like the worst, but you

kind of had a good attitude
through it all.

Did that come from any of your
family?

Did you like have any sort of
like role models growing up?

That kind of like helped you
through that?

Just kind of maybe curious
about like where some of that

came from, because usually when
you have that it's a pretty

tough event.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know,
actually I read a book back then

.

So in my own time I was feeling
stuck everything.

Yeah, it is typical, right?

So everyone knows the Alchemist
book.

So a friend recommended me to
read it and after I read it it

was like the inspiration and
like, okay, this is the place

right now I am at and I need to
figure it out.

I need to do my best.

So everything actually started
mentally there and since I was

always like self-taught, like I
had the computer and internet,

so I had everything actually.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like I
had everything, yeah you know,

there's often times I think
going through life it's like we

often don't always, don't always
have what we want, but like we

always have what we need.

It's, you know, when we can
kind of take away the some of

the, some of the pop or some of
the you know wishing for certain

things.

It's like we really have.

Like, when I look back at my
life, at least, even during the

times where I struggled, my
needs were always taken care of,

you know right, but that's a
great book and Alchemist is one

of my favorites, and that was,
you know, when I first read like

life conspires to help you when
you want it.

Essentially, that was
incredibly inspiring to me as

well.

Speaker 2: It's definitely like,
definitely supports it

completely changed my mental
model actually, after I read it.

So like once in a while, when I
feel lost, I read it again.

Of course there are other books
, but I read it again just to

see where am I at?

Sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely man.

I mean, you mentioned you read
other books.

Do you mainly read books like
that?

Are there any?

What other type of books
interest you?

Speaker 2: Mostly like, mostly
informative books.

I don't read too many story
books actually, but I really

like that.

You know Lao Tzu again like
similar to Alchemist and I've

been recently.

I kept laying it, I've been the
creative act.

I don't remember, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Rick Rubin,
yeah.

Speaker 2: So I just started
that, but mostly I'm reading the

books that are that I can learn
something.

Speaker 1: Totally, totally Love
that man.

I've recently just started
getting back into reading.

I was once video games.

Once I found out video games as
a kid, I kind of just stopped

reading.

You know it was, I could not
spend my time doing that, but

it's actually what I learned
lately.

Speaker 2: Like people are
listening to audiobooks.

I'm not sure if it is the same,
that like same effect, but I

need to try.

Speaker 1: I think you should,
because audiobooks are actually

what got me back into reading, I
should say so.

The last two books I read this
year were the, you know, the

movie the Book Dune by Frank
Herbert, and then also the book

called American Prometheus, and
it was the story about Robert

Oppenheimer, and so that was
like the.

Those are the, because they
were.

They were books that I wanted
to read, but they're really long

and they're very dry reads,
kind of like it's.

There's just very information,
it's very information heavy.

And I was like, well, if I'm
going to read these, let me just

see if I'll listen to them.

And I really enjoyed it, like I
.

You know, sometimes they put a
lot of like extra care and

attention into the audiobooks to
make them captivating, to make

them a little bit, you know, to
make it feel a little bit.

Speaker 2: It's also important.

But it's also important, the
voice of the reader, right Like

that.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Oh, everything you
need to find the good one.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

And with Dune being so popular,
you know the movie just taking

off and they're you know they're
making the I think, a trilogy

out of it.

It's like they, I think they
like paid a lot of money to find

the right voice actors, you
know, to add some of the special

sound effects you know during,
during some of the key moments,

and it was really cool.

So I recommend it, man,
especially maybe with especially

if it's like a book or a genre
that you maybe like wouldn't

pick up a book to read, but
you're kind of interested in it.

I think audiobooks are good for
that because you can passively

like listen to it and it's yeah
there's less friction.

Speaker 2: That makes sense.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
let's cool it, man.

But yeah, now I'm, now I'm like
back into reading, I like

audiobooks, I'm starting to pick
up physical books as well, so

very, yeah, very excited about
that.

But let's, let's, let's talk
code man.

Let's talk about crypto cubes.

You know something that I saw
and I'm and so just forgave a

little bit of my ignorance, but
I'm still fairly new to your

work, and so some of the
questions that are going to be

more exploratory for me is that
crypto cubes.

When I look at your site, I see
the original cube and I see a

different version of it that
maybe the person that owned it

created.

So I would love to yeah, would
love to maybe know like what

that is.

Speaker 2: You know, and the
concept behind crypto cubes,

yeah, yeah, so actually crypto
cubes is a collection of 256

objects based on cubes.

So they're all algorithmically
generated objects based on cubes

and actually this is like,
which is focusing on the 3D

virtual lens, you know, like AR
and some other sandbox, the San

Francisco's virtual lens.

So this is the original
collection actually, but the

artverse you're seeing, there is
another project of crypto cubes

called crypto cubes creators,
and the idea of crypto cubes

creators is pairing each crypto
cube with an artist and that

artist uses that 3D file or the
crypto cube and creates an

artwork with their own style.

So, let's say, dk picked crypto
cube 17.

And it's also like the artist's
choice that there's no like

preselected cubes, and then they
are creating their own artwork

with their tools, with their
style and how they approach it,

virtually, and we are auctioning
them in an event.

Actually, this is more like
creating a more concrete history

behind crypto cubes with all of
the artists.

We already collaborated with
over 110 artists and it still

goes on.

Speaker 1: Wow, that's okay.

So, when it comes to, I guess
maybe this is really cool.

So, when it comes to the crypto
cubes themselves, are those

like, oh, wow, like when it
comes to the data on chain, like

, is the one that the artist?

Does the artist own the
original cube that they created?

No, no, no.

Speaker 2: Okay.

So it is conceptually connected
.

You know, our collectors are
trying to get, let's say, is

actually a collector owns the
crypto cube 17.

And then there's an artist
creates an art piece with that

crypto cube 17.

So the collectors are trying to
get those pairings just for the

concept, for the more
provenance of it.

Speaker 1: Gotcha Gotcha.

And how do they go about
selecting that?

Do they just go collect it or
do they, you know, are they tied

to like once the collector
maybe has both for the

provenance?

Are they tied together in any
way on chain, or are they two

technically separate?

Yeah, technically two separate
collections.

Yeah, gotcha Gotcha.

And where did you think of like
?

What's the fascination with
cubes?

Like?

What made you want to like?

What made you want to do this?

Speaker 2: The collection.

Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

As I told you, it was the first
idea came out from creating 3D

spaces, automated 3D spaces, in
my graduation project, and then

I started to use it as a
collection because when I was

looking for the NFTs, it was
mostly 2D representations and

people were just running around
the centerland everywhere but

everyone was looking at like
those 2D things and the whole

idea sparked from there.

Speaker 1: Gotcha, gotcha.

Okay, so I guess the kind of
more of the long tail of, you

know, of crypto cubes.

Do you see these like becoming
their own kind of metaverse land

where people can run around in?

Are they, you know?

Is that kind of like the?

Or is this just kind of like a
purely standalone project,

completely on its own?

Speaker 2: I consider crypto
cubes project, like the

collection, as like a fixed
thing, you know, as a 3D

artifact.

Gotcha, of course I'm working
on like developments right, and

like technical developments.

You can already go into the
playground of the crypto cubes,

create your own animation,
export that animated file and

use it on 3D platforms.

You can also see it in there.

But I want them to be more
developed, much more useful.

You know, I want people to
consider them as like an

artifact and maybe someone can
use it as a building, maybe

someone can use it in there like
a decorative aesthetic, as

statue in their AR.

So it all depends on that.

Speaker 1: Gotcha.

Okay, no, this is cool.

No, this is cool.

I appreciate you sharing that.

Yeah, because I look at this
and I'm like, okay, you know

what's the, what's the next step
or what's the vision, what's

the?

You know like what, what are
people supposed to do with these

and what's the intent, and so
it's it's cool to.

It's cool to hear that you know
you have the interest in AR and

and like I feel like AR
personally is way cooler than VR

, I think that yeah.

You know, the world is still
really beautiful and, like

humans still have like a lot.

You know, like it's just, I
just don't like the idea of

being just siloed in a in a
house.

Speaker 2: I agree with you.

Actually, you know, the AR is
more real life connected.

Yeah, I guess, like more like
daily, that the apps that we

daily use is mostly, will Make
make sense more in air, right?

But let's, let's, let's think
about the movie, right?

Yeah, I think I Would be in VR
because, like, it's completely a

different world.

But I completely agree with you
in those like the air side.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I literally was
having that thought, you know,

I think when I when I saw the
advertisement for the Apple

Vision Pro, I think the the
thing that most excited me about

that product was when they
showed the cinema mode, it was

like, oh, that's really cool,
you know, like being able to

watch a movie in a, in a custom
3d environment where you're

completely immersed and you know
it's like they.

I think the example they showed
was like Star Wars, you know,

because, like, obviously you
know, disney owned Star Wars.

They did this like the whole
Mandalorian, just the ship.

You're like sitting in this,
like it's, it's like if you're

going to the theme park, you
know, except you're in your

house.

Speaker 2: And you're watching a
movie.

Speaker 1: I think digital
environments, I think, are

incredibly fascinating and I
think that this kind of

Technology is one thing to help
us get there.

But I think, to your, you know,
going back to our original

point, like AR just feels more
practical, like it feels like

the technology to build or like
the to build technology around,

ar is a lot more practical, it's
a lot more immersed.

You know, it feels the most
like what we currently have, or

maybe we have all these
experiences, but we're not just

looking down on our phone.

We can maybe be more present
with people you know what I mean

where, like whether it's
glasses or whether it's, you

know, certain meetings.

Like it's, ar just feels like I
Don't know.

It feels more of a shared
experience, where VR feels more

isolated.

Speaker 2: And I think there's a
bad, you know yeah and yeah.

Same thing.

We are like when we need those
isolated thing, then we are

going to use they.

We are yeah and yeah, but
mostly are yeah, mostly are like

I.

Speaker 1: There was some
artworks that I saw at.

I went to a physical art fair
here in Texas and there was a

lady that I don't know how she
did it, but basically with some

of the still photographs that
she had or the still paintings

that she had, she basically
built the animations and she

actually animated the pieces and
then you held up your phone and

your phone scanned the painting
and the animated version Came

out and I thought that was
really really cool, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's an
outer layer.

Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, totally.

So something that I think
really captivated me about

Looking at your, looking at your
website was the, the new one of

what are the one of ones that
you've that you've recently been

doing, where the, the, the the
token, is the marketplace, it is

the art it had and it has, you
know it's.

It's so that to me,
conceptually, was like wait,

like I Didn't really understand
it first but would love to, yeah

, we'd love to just like dive
into that a little bit.

Yeah, you know, on the, on the
one of ones, can you like break

down kind of where you thought
about this and like what your

vision for this is?

Speaker 2: hmm, so all of the
inspiration came to me with time

.

You know, we, we all, we all
know crypto punks.

They have their own marketplace
.

It's basically a collection,
right, but everything happens in

a smart contract, yeah, and and
Then we had, we had art blocks,

right, they had created the
standard to for the generate bar

, like how to put the script
inside the contracts and how to

Automate though the randomizing
everything.

So basically, this project,
inspired like those two projects

are inspired me to do, to
create this, my new project, and

and so they're like three
aspects of it, I guess like the

first one is the visual part.

In my own 101 art pieces I'm
creating very highly optimized

real-time shaders and, as you
can see in the website, it is

much more Advanced compare to
the other on chain graphics,

because the other one, chain
graphics, are mostly based on to

the svg's right, like those
layers, but if you look at the

pieces you will see it is you
can interact with them there

like three different
presentation.

So each Script, all the art
pieces, individually crafted, so

it doesn't output many
quantities, it only outputs one.

I think that makes the art
pieces special to me.

And the second part is you know
that marketplace idea.

You know, the marketplace idea
haven't hasn't been changed for

like decades, right, like many
years and centuries.

Basically, we have a place, the
marketplace.

We have to buy or sell.

They're coming together and
like they're facilitating those

transactions.

But I think in the future, in
the visible future, every

digital asset can have their own
internal thing.

So basically, if I want to, if
I like something, I want to buy

a digital asset, right, I can
just connect to the itself.

I shouldn't look for some kind
of a marketplace that sells it.

So, basically, this whole idea
was basically you're connecting

to my art piece itself by to buy
, sell or be done, so you don't

need any marketplace anywhere.

And the third part is the
royalties and that the new

standard this is like the other
NFTs doesn't have, like this

book, with the functions for
those buying, a selling.

You know marks, places are
having the word on like to make

it less a.

They made the royalties
optional, right, so they can

basically control the things.

So I'm actually doesn't sell
100%, but I is a different

approach that I think we should
be explored.

The market functions are inside
the art piece so you will be

sure it will be paid, but
they're like the like technical

details that it can be avoided
again, but we are also working

on it.

And the last thing, since it's
like a new standard, it doesn't

use any ERC and non-finageable
token standard.

Basically, each one on one art
piece is a smart contract which

allows me to add new features.

Explore what can I do?

Speaker 1: Okay, see, that was
to me that that last part was

really where I wasn't quite
clear on.

That's really cool.

Instead of it being an ERC,
it's a.

You know, and I read that.

I think I've read that so many
different times but, like, until

you said it really didn't click
To me that you know the

difference between the two.

I think it's incredibly
fascinating, man, like I think

you know, when I was my, I think
anything that kind of like

Makes me challenge.

What I currently know is is
really captivating and

fascinating, and I think
Something I thought about when

you were sharing this is okay.

Like.

You're incredibly.

Like you know, like you built
this new way of looking at the

world.

You know, when it comes to.

You know when it comes to all
of the art that we enjoy.

You know, when it comes to all
of the art, whether it's on

chain or it's pointing to a
decentralized server, like on

our weave or IPFS, do you see?

You know, without a huge level
of technical background, how

does an artist do something like
this, like, how do it like?

Basically, do we need more
places?

Speaker 2: I also should mention
I'm working on documentation

about how one can create their
own art piece with it on chain

or off chain, and then I'm going
to open to open source to the

creators.

That allows them to use and
Basically, it is independent

from anywhere else.

Right, so you don't need to go
to the market places or anywhere

else.

It requires an API because you
need to get the market data to

put in your website or, if you
don't want, there's there's an

ether scan or some other
solutions that basically go to

the art pieces contract and
connect your wallet to from the

ether scan.

Speaker 1: Hmm, okay, gotcha,
that that makes a lot more sense

.

And I because I it's really
cool, because I know there's

projects like you know,
prohibition on they use our

blocks engine on on arbitram,
where and I'll weave this back

into our conversation but yeah,
but like they're encouraging

like a lot of traditional
artists to understand what it

would be like to be paired with
a creative coder you know to

make, make, to convert, kind of
you know, whether you're a 3d

artist or an illustrator, like
what would it, what would it

look like to make a generative
art piece, you know, and make it

on chain or like to have, yeah.

So, reason why I say that that
was kind of my first intro,

number one, my first intro to
really being able to excessively

explore generative art and the
ideas of it.

But I say that because it
sounds like there's a push for

Like it feels like there's a
boundary that can be pushed here

when it comes to bring art
that's not traditionally on

chain or bringing more ideas to
you know, infusing them with

code, than there was before,
when it comes like our work of

the future, you know, it just
kind of feels like there's a

natural push and it feels like
this is kind of a logical first

step Into doing that, if that
makes sense.

And I think that you know
because, because right now we

have tools, like you know,
manifold.

We have tools, like you know, I
know, super rare and you know,

not super transient is also
another smart contract, you know

, development tool.

But the way, the way I view,
you know, and I can't remember

where I first heard this, but I
was chatting with our creative

director and there was this
vision to kind of have

everything on their website
versus a marketplace.

So I think there there is like
a While marketplace is going.

Speaker 2: This is like every
artist will have their own

customized, like they own
websites.

Right, it started with manifold
Like.

Now they have their own custom
contracts, which they are more

control over it, and I think in
some way in the future you're

each artist going to have their
own marketplaces in their own

website.

I think that too Similar to
crypto punks.

You know, everything started
with crypto punks.

Basically, you go to the
liberal apps website and you

connect your wallet to your
punks.

There's nowhere else, like of
course there are.

There are ways to wrap it and
trade them on, like other places

, but it doesn't even need.

It is independent from
everywhere.

Speaker 1: You know, see, I was
listening to a terror, you know,

a one, one, three space, and it
was over the weekend, you know,

and that was really like
because, like you know,

obviously I know punks, I know,
you know, like, I think there's

a lot of, there's so much rich
history, rich history behind

that.

But until he started really
talking about the, there was a

discussion around the innovation
of crypto punks or like, what

makes them so special was the
marketplace it had.

Like the tokens are cool, like
in the punks are cool in the

community, but it was the
marketplace that, of course.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree
and like making this, you know,

immutable pieces actually like
though the.

The users are, yes, they are
nice, but they're also running

through them from SHA algorithm
and then they're having the hash

like everything is like a the
code, the structure, market

places and art.

Speaker 1: Got it.

Yeah, that, exactly that.

Like that didn't really click
until like over the weekend.

You know where it was like, oh,
that, that makes sense.

You know it's, it's there, it's
their own thing and it it's

really.

It's really interesting to like
look at this where it's like

you know we've we're coming out
of a web to like you know, we're

coming out of a web to world
into a web three world and we

have these.

You know, I think I think it
worked for a while, like

obviously Twitter is great to
have, was great to have, is a

centralized you know at for a
while because you know, like it

connected me to so many people
and it gave me the ability to do

what I want to do.

Speaker 2: Most of the people
who are interested in crypto are

in Twitter.

Mostly there's like forecast or
other places, but yeah, most of

the day yeah, yeah, so it's.

Speaker 1: You can't I can't
completely not centralization

and in certain aspects, because
there is a, there is a benefit,

there's a value to it, but I
feel like it's kind of a.

You know, it's real easy to
kind of like look at the

previous generations and kind of
like shit on it where it's like

, but actually Actually I just
want to make a comment on this.

Speaker 2: Like, yeah, we need a
decentralization when it's when

it is necessary.

You know, there are some places
when we don't.

We need sense centralization in
some aspect of life.

So some people are looking at
it like I don't, like we with

them, like it is not good to be
become like the center, like

maximum is the decentralization.

So I also believe in that, like
the important aspects should be

decentralized, but I am not
saying that everything should be

Totally, I think.

Speaker 1: I think maximalism of
any sort is a dangerous game to

play.

You know, like it's if you're
dealing in absolutes.

You know like this or that, or
you know, or it's, it's just not

.

It's not a healthy way to look
at it because you know, I look

at, I've always looked at crypto
as an option.

I've looked at digital.

You know I've looked at
tokenization of everything as an

option, as an alternate path.

I think you know it's.

It's real easy to like Look
into all the chain maximalism

and you know which one's going
to win and which one's better

and where should we do all these
things.

But it's like there's In which
there's only two blockchains

that that the rest of the world
uses.

If we truly believe that like
this is an inevitable technology

, the future is the future is
multi chain, right.

Speaker 2: I actually you know
we have this new technology,

right.

That permission is pure, pure
one, yeah, but we still we are

going with the same idea, like
the same ideas, like why, why,

why, why do we need a big
marketplace for everything now?

Like we need everything just
for inside of themselves?

And when you like something,
you just go in there and you

know the one interesting part
that comes from this

conversation around every artist
should have their.

You know, like, every artist
will have their own marketplace.

I really, like I want to linger
on that a little bit.

Speaker 1: So, when it comes to
you know the, because the one

thing that marketplaces do very
well is or they don't.

I'm not going to say they do
very well, but they do well,

they solve it.

They solve a problem of
discoverability in curation.

Yeah, yeah, I agree with this
as well.

Yeah, I Totally agree with this
as well.

Speaker 2: But here's the thing
I also experienced being in the

platform just now, so they are
helping.

I also experienced being in the
platform just now, so they are

helping, I would say, 50%.

They are helping 50% of the
artists and they are like

they're really supporting their
career.

The artists are having really
positive feedbacks, they're

becoming more successful, but
then there's the other 50% that

can't be seen.

You know, it happens right Like
there's a but of course it is

some kind of like you need to
show yourself as a creator or an

artist, you need to improve
yourself, but there's also some

aspect of it that maybe someone,
some creator, doesn't want to

be in a platform.

So I'm not saying, by the way,
like everyone should use it

again, but we also need that
kind of thing, because this is

what I experienced.

I tried to work with platforms
in the past and there was only a

few of them was a good
experience for me.

The rest of them was they
didn't even care.

You know, like you can,
everyone can understand this

kind of problems and as an
individual, I decided to just

create my own platform and yeah,
now I don't need them.

Speaker 1: I like that, so it's
a.

So I guess the you know to
clarify or to as we go along in

this topic, the conversation
isn't and I'm noticing my own

contradiction like in dealing in
absolutes.

It's like it's not like this or
that, it's not like

marketplaces or no marketplaces.

It's more of an in addition to
and not in replacement of.

You know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to have
the options, like, we need to

have those.

We need to see what we can do
at first and then we can decide.

Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah,
it's an interesting topic, man,

because it's easy to yeah, it's
easy to kind of fall into one

or the other.

But again, going back to my
original statement, like crypto

has always for me, you know,
represented an additional, it's

another option to the current
financial system, you know, and

so it makes sense.

It only makes sense that within
the ecosystem we have different

options.

Speaker 2: And there's also like
misunderstanding in there right

, people are arguing about like
you know we have a recent news

everything.

Some of them doesn't like the
centralized finance world.

Some of them are saying it is
necessary.

So it's always like that
balance.

You know, we can't live without
each other.

Speaker 1: Actually, there's an
inevitability to it, right.

It's kind of like you know you
don't really get anywhere by

just agreeing with each other,
like if there was only one

school of thought.

You know it doesn't.

That's not how we advance.

It usually comes from two
people, two very strong opposing

beliefs, constantly clashing.

Speaker 2: And also.

But it is like that when you
look at the logic, it is totally

clear to see like it is going
to be automated.

Right, it is going to be using
blockchain, like those systems.

So it is clear in a logical
sense.

Speaker 1: Totally, totally.

I couldn't agree more, man,
where do you see?

So I'd love to maybe it's not
necessarily a pivot, but kind of

sort of is when it comes to
everything being automated on

blockchain.

So, when it comes to, I would
love to kind of dive in a little

bit into AI, you know, do you?

When it comes to what you know
and this is a very broad,

open-ended invitation here
whether it's involved with your

work, whether it's just as a
whole, in general, where you see

it going, I would love to kind
of know how you have I'm curious

to know if you, number one
incorporated AI into your

practice and, if so, and also
how you kind of view it.

There's a lot of important
things that need to be discussed

, like you know, when it comes
to the creative process of AI,

or when it comes to how things
are made.

When it comes to, you know,
what do people value?

How do people value it.

You know there's a lot of
different, I think, discussions

to have.

Well, as a creator, I would
love to kind of know, like, how

you've used that in your
practice so far.

Maybe we can just start there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, the first thing
I want to say is like I am very

fascinated about like the.

I read some things and I was
very fascinated about the

connection of AI and blockchain
actually.

So it was like AI is the, you
know, taking all the data,

processing everything right,
like it's like a book, like it's

like the brain, right, yeah,
and it's like the brain is the

executing part, like the
transparent executing part.

So I mostly think them all
together recently after all of

these readings.

And the second thing, what I
was doing recently this is like

not related to the first things
that I said I'm kind of creating

my own GPD, you know, just
feeding everything, like who am

I, what I'm doing, what kind of
details or data do my projects

have?

Like everything that you can
think of you know, like I say I

am talking with someone.

Someone asked me what is
cryptocubes.

I explain it.

And then there's okay, how does
cryptocube 23 looks Like?

What are the exclusive
locations of each cube in the

cryptocube 23?

Like that, the HAN GPT is going
to know everything.

Even it will provide the assets
, the images, sounds.

It will basically behave like
me.

It is like a second me, right,
better me, actually better than,

because, yeah, I think this is
actually where it is going as

well.

Right, we all are currently
using daily tools, ai tools just

to make it much more faster.

Yeah, it is really broad.

Like people are talking about
AGI and then I'm completely lost

there.

Like I don't know right now,
like what will happen.

But yeah, these are my thoughts
.

Actually, I don't like AI
single.

I like AI with the blockchain.

Speaker 1: I would agree, like I
think for me there was an idea

that I heard and first I'm going
to talk about the GPT in just a

second but I think that I feel
like in a world where AI is

going to become like, I view it
like, if you're not you know the

way I've talked to my parents
about it is that like if you're

not exploring chat, gpt or any
AI, a similar AI, you know,

large language model, this is
the equivalent of like not

learning how to use Google when
Google first came out.

It's kind of like to me it feels
like if you don't know how to

use it right now, if you're not
at least exploring even some

really basic ways for it to help
you.

You know, I feel like it's
going to become the norm and

people who are refusing it or
people who are like, resistant

to it, it's like the genie's out
of the bottle, you know, and

you can't like.

You can't have like only
certain parts of AI, not have

other.

It's Pandora's out of the box,
you know, type of thing, but the

current I'm not sure where I
was going with that, but it was

more of a personal view on, I
guess, AI and AGI, just

completely.

You know, I don't think I'm
smart enough to even really

commentate on that of like what
that actually means.

You know.

Speaker 2: It's not about this.

Actually, you know just we kind
of we have the AI like it is

smarter than everyone, yeah yeah
, yeah, but I think, oh, where I

was going with that is the AI
and blockchain.

Speaker 1: Is that like?

I look at a world where it's so
easy to impersonate people,

like right now it's getting
easier and easier to like

impersonate people.

Speaker 2: You know and like one
of the solutions with

blockchain.

Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one of
the solutions like blockchain

has an actual use for this
because, say, you know a world

leader tweets something, or
there's a video of a world

leader saying something that
could cause you know civil

unrest or a cause you know,
violence?

Like what if you could
cryptographically prove that

that came from that person or
not?

Speaker 2: Like what if you know
this is already being done?

You know, like you are there
signing the message, everything,

yeah, so this is where it's
going.

Actually, I agree, and there
will be many aspects of it, but

I think, like blockchain, like
the cryptocurrency, is going to

put money off those automated
things.

Speaker 1: And what money of
those money of the odd?

What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2: Basically the
currency of the AI.

Actually, people are talking
about it because it will need

that.

We can go into too much detail
right now.

I'm just trying to make it like
brief as possible, right, but

yeah, I can totally see that
like that in the in an automated

world, yeah, the, the wealth,
will be actually a shift to the

automation.

Instead of that, like the
currency, the value, but so the

currency will be the automation.

Speaker 1: I'm going to do that
for a little while.

We can, we can, we can keep the
conversation going, but I I'll

probably need to think on that
one, for, for a little bit,

appreciate you kind of
pretzeling my mind a little bit

during the conversation.

No, that's cool, man.

This is all like incredibly
fascinating.

And one thing, one other thing
I wanted to I don't even want to

talk about is you know you
recently, crypto cubes are now

in the LACMA permanent
collection.

Would love to, would, and I've
been having this conversation

with a few different people,
just in different areas, whether

it's artists or curators, you
know, when it comes to the, you

know when it comes to historical
institutions like museums, you

know, and galleries and just the
traditional art world.

Do you see, when it comes to,
like, what we're building here?

Do you see the two worlds kind
of still operating separately,

or do you see a world in which
we all come together?

Speaker 2: Yeah, we all come
together so like no one decides.

No one decides what is art Like
, when there's a huge

inspiration, when there's a huge
moment you should accept as an

history right.

So for those museums entering
the digital assets scene, that

shows this like there's a moment
and it will happen more as long

as we create new things, as
long as people are interested.

So, yeah, like you know, mama
did collaborations right, and

then we have LACMA, then there's
like blue center, like we wish

there is like some pre Crypto
punk autograph.

I think it's amazing actually,
like just being witnessing this,

like the first acquisitions of
the digital assets I don't know

it's.

It feels special.

Speaker 1: It does.

It's also kind of weird.

There's part, you know, like I
feel like as a whole we're

moving.

We're kind of like a part, like
you know, you always like to

read about shifts and culture or
like shifts in history, so like

when some big moments are
happening, like I think we're

living through a lot of like.

We're living through a moment
right as a society, and

sometimes it's you know,
sometimes it's you know, like

whether it's COVID, the pandemic
.

There's some painful elements
to it, but there's also some

really like cool elements.

Like we are literally
witnessing digital art and the

ownership of that being accepted
and people are getting excited

about it.

And we're seeing some of these.

You know, we're seeing some of
the merge of these two kind of

what used to be separate
cultures, in my opinion, or like

what used to be very separate
or, I guess, operated separately

, coming to one.

Speaker 2: Actually I'm not sure
about this Like sort of like

the galleries and those
institutions was already focused

on like digital works.

But the normal tangible talking
standard just helped verifying

those digital assets and, as we
know, like when there's a huge

boom right, like currently, it
is like a dot com thing, so then

unnecessary things happen this
well, so it is important that

they are being careful about
those kind of things.

So I think it's like everything
is together.

That means if we do our job, if
us creators are doing being

transparent, trying to like move
forward, they're going to be

interested.

I can totally understand their
side, yeah totally yeah, totally

.

Speaker 1: Well, it's very, you
know.

You know, to a lot of people
it's very different and you

built up.

It's kind of interesting when
you build up success or build up

a career and then something new
comes along.

It's like then, all of a sudden
, you know, you're kind of

forced I don't necessarily like
use the word, like I don't know

if I like the word forced, but
like you're kind of like, okay,

maybe there's a new way of
thinking that could be a little

bit better.

And just because it's not my
way doesn't mean it's wrong.

Yeah, always yeah.

So I really, yeah, I really
like that.

And kind of speaking on, kind of
on that same beat of like, as

long as you know, as long as
artists do their job, you know,

what are some of this, what are
some of the things that I guess

on both sides this isn't just
specifically on the art side,

specifically artists, but
artists, collectors, builders

what do you think's missing
right now?

I guess, in one, three, as far
as like being an artist

participating in the industry
for a couple of years, you know,

and having the success you've
had, like what is it?

What do you think's missing
right now?

Is there anything?

Speaker 2: I think I already
answered this Like we have all

the new permissionless
technology, but we are still

thinking with our old ideologies
.

So, like it offers it offers us
so many aspects, in my opinion,

that needs to be explored.

So what is missing is that
those creative minds I like, and

also the second thing maybe
like we need to be careful about

our attitudes, behaviors, for,
like, we are saying outside

world like the other, no, like
we need to be careful about this

, like it is, like it's a moment
and we need to be welcoming.

We need to be more mature, we
need to be more honest about

those things.

Speaker 1: So I guess the nature
of like gatekeeping or like not

being as welcoming.

Is that kind of what?

Speaker 2: I think I don't want
to comment on this.

Okay, it always happens
everywhere, yeah, like in every

aspect.

So, as you can understand, you
know, in the technical sites,

like, there's always a balance
that needs to be maintained

Totally.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I respect that for sure, for
sure.

So I guess let's do one final
pivot here.

Would love to kind of know you
know what's on the horizon like

from what you can share.

You know what is kind of on the
horizon for you coming up in

2024?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to be
focusing on mostly in my

artistic works.

I'm trying to create my own
language, like my own world,

firstly, and in an
infrastructure also the site and

also the concept, the sites as
well.

The second thing is getting
ready to infrastructure for

others to use for sourcing them.

And the third thing is that
keep learning about what happens

in the blockchain ecosystem,
because every day, something new

happens, and what I realized
was I was, I felt like I was

missing.

You know, there are like lots
of blockchains to learn, and

then I just recently heard about
modular blockchain.

What is it?

How does it work?

Yeah, so yeah, like just trying
to keep up.

Speaker 1: It's hard, dude, I
mean it's.

I saw a funny tweet the other
day was like when people ask,

how do you understand crypto or
how do you, like you know, how

should I learn about this?

It's like, well, it's simple,
just spend 17 hours a day on

Twitter, that's it, and it's
kind of the truth, you know,

yeah, so well, dude, this is
that sounds incredibly exciting,

man, and I can't be more eager
to see kind of how you like lay

these tools out and open source
it and really what artists will

be able to do with this.

I think that's incredibly
exciting and what you've built

is really yeah, yeah, I also
want to thank, like you know,

our techs code.

Speaker 2: We are collaborating
with Sophie and Tony in this, my

art 101 art piece project, and
then there's demo, really more

silly out, which are my, like,
my team that are helping me a

lot in terms of like technical
parts, yeah, like hopefully, in

each step we are going to
iterate to make it better.

Speaker 1: Totally, man, I
couldn't think of a better group

of people like to have on your
side here, like it's especially

after getting to chat with
Sophia, like that, she's

phenomenal.

What they're doing at ArtX code
is yeah, it's incredibly.

It's really cool to see someone
who has such an intuitive

understanding of you know just
generative art, markets, people

and how to you know how to help
realize goals.

It's such a huge, such a huge
thing, and I think it's the

space needs a lot more people.

I agree, I agree.

Well, cool man Han.

I just want to thank you.

We're coming up on the hour,
man.

I just want to thank you for
your time.

Thank you, thanks for having me
.

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