Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Schiller

Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Lady Cactoid,

co-founder of Cactoid Labs.

She holds a PhD in art history
and specializes in the

intersection of art and
technology.

She has organized large-scale
exhibitions at major

institutions such as the LACMA
MOCA and the Getty Foundation.

In this episode, we just
explore the intersection between

traditional and digital art,
the necessary relationship

between technology and art, the
opportunity blockchain provides

to artists, and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now.

It's time to grab some coffee
and dive into this conversation

with Lady Cactoid.

All right, we are recording.

Good morning, good afternoon.

I'm Lady.

Speaker 2: Cactoid.

I'm great.

Thank you so much for having me
here today.

Speaker 1: You're very welcome.

Speaker 2: How are you?

Speaker 1: I'm good.

I think the past few days I've
severely overslept, but someone

once told me that oversleeping
wasn't vented by capitalism.

I'm currently challenging that
thought right now.

Did I oversleep or did I just
sleep?

I'm well rested.

Let's just put it that way.

Speaker 2: Okay, amazing.

I don't think I've overslept
since before I had kids, so I

can't say I remember what that
feels like.

Speaker 1: That's what I keep
hearing.

I keep hearing.

Also, enjoy it while you can.

The closest thing I have to a
child is I have a 65-pound pop

name Princess Leia.

You know she needs to go out
obviously in the mornings, but

she's pretty low maintenance
when it's all sudden done.

I'm just enjoying that.

I've heard dogs are good
stepping stones to kids.

But we're doing good so far.

I hope you get some we're
asleep soon.

Speaker 2: That's awesome.

You're in Austin, was that
where you are?

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, currently
in Austin, austin for the past

10 years.

Speaker 2: Amazing.

Yeah, I mean, I love it here
Well, yeah, yeah, I've only been

there once, but I need to come
back.

I know it's developed a lot
since I was there.

Speaker 1: Yeah, how long ago?

Well, first let's start there.

How long ago were you here and
what were you here for?

Speaker 2: So I was nine years
old, I think, and my dad, who's

an artist, was teaching painting
at UT Austin, and so, yeah,

like my mom and my brother and I
all stayed in San Francisco

because he was only teaching
there for a year, and then we

would just go and visit him and
it was always super pretty and

much, much more low-key than San
Francisco.

So I remember thinking like, oh
, this is amazing, we have a

backyard, but yes, but now it's
like you guys have a whole tech

and entertainment industry and
that wasn't really there.

Speaker 1: It was not.

And I'll tell you, one of the
best things about Austin is that

that vibe is real, similar to,
kind of it reminds me of like

when, you know, because my mom
went to school at UT and so the

way she kind of described the
city was, you know, like what

makes Austin so great is its
denial.

What makes it so great and what
also shoots itself in the foot

is their denial of how good the
city is and people's desire to

move there.

You know, because in the
beginning it was very, you know

like, low-key, there wasn't, it
was kind of like a little safe

haven, but that I think they
grow, like they, but they also

kind of refused to grow Like
they just kind of just refused

to like expand on their own and
do things.

So you know, it's kind of one
of those things where it's so

great and I love this city.

There's also a side, though,
that like it's just a little bit

of denial about how good the
city is and people's will to

live there, and I think a lot of
like different infrastructures

could have been set in place if
they like, focused on growth,

but they just didn't and so but
it's also kind of what makes it

still very special, even though
it's grown so much.

It still has that special kind
of small town vibe, even though

it's anything but that.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's,
that's good.

Yeah, yeah, tain that that's
awesome, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: But yeah, like you
said, big tech culture, big, you

know, art scene, I'll tell you,
is not as impressive as you

might think.

I'm from Houston and I also
know Dallas has a really big,

flourishing art scene there.

You know, I went, I grew up
going to the museum of modern

art and doing all those things
as a kid, but Austin doesn't

really have that.

It's a little disappointing,
yeah.

Speaker 2: Well, there's the
Blanton right, Like I know.

I know a number of artists
who've exhibited there.

I've never been there, but yes,
it doesn't.

It doesn't.

It's small compared to what's
happening in Dallas and Houston,

for sure.

Speaker 1: Very true.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's
cool.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I took.

I ended up taking, and the
reason only I knew is I took a

little vacation after we
released season one of Shiller

Media, took a well-deserved
break and I was just like let me

go just explore and see the
arts and culture that we have

here, because I've I kind of
live farther out of the city and

I don't, you know, as a local,
I've never explored the city

that I live in a lot.

So but yeah, the Branson's
really good, like it's really

good, and not to discount what
they have, but for a city like

Austin you kind of would just
expect a little bit more.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: So, who knows, Maybe
what we're talking about here,

what we're going to talk about
today, will be the birth place

of something new.

Whether you know, web 3, you
know kind of art is may have a

home in Austin, who knows?

Speaker 2: Yeah, who knows?

Well, that's really interesting
.

Yeah, I do.

I do know that a lot of.

There's a lot of young
collectors in Texas and I've

been reading just like.

I think a lot of people will be
located to Texas during the

pandemic and a number of
prominent galleries are thinking

about opening up locations in
Houston and Dallas.

So it's interesting to think
about and to see what transpires

there over the next few years.

I'm sure it will bleed into
Austin in some way or another.

Speaker 1: One would hope.

You know, we have a South by
Southwest here.

We have, you know, a few other
crypto conferences here, like

Consensus and Permissionless, so
one just kind of you know, in

South by Southwest.

You know, as you probably know
this as well, but it was not

always as tech focused as it is
now.

It was very much rooted in new
music, new movies, kind of indie

artists kind of getting a name
for themselves type of beat, and

it's very much changed, yeah so
interesting.

Speaker 2: Well, that's really
cool.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but I
think there's a bit of a delay.

Sorry, go ahead, Go ahead.

I would love to kind of
understand.

So you want something that was
really interesting, like when we

started working together and
hosting some spaces and it got

introduced to Cactoid Labs.

You know, I started, like.

You know, I was obviously
looking at your Twitter profile,

which is how basically every
relationship that I have formed

today is where it starts.

You know, and saw that you've
had quite.

You've had quite the education
in the arts and in art history,

and so I loved to maybe like go
back to kind of the early days

of, like, what interested you in
art or maybe what.

Maybe a question that we could
start off here is like what was

maybe your first encounter with
art and what that made you and

how that had an impact on you.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, my first
encounter with art is kind of I

don't even know, because my
father is a painter and a lot of

people in my family are either
visual artists or poets or

songwriters, and it's kind of
been part of my life since from

the very beginning I grew up
with my dad's studio was in our

house and so I was always in his
studio while he was painting

and you know, I was able to work
in there doing whatever I was

working on while he was.

And we lived in San Francisco,
california, when I was little

and we would go to all of the
museums in San Francisco, which

San Francisco has a little bit
of a sleepy art scene.

It's not as developed as LA and
certainly not New York, but I

mean there's a lot of history
there.

Yeah, so I grew up like.

There's this amazing museum in
San Francisco which I kind of

hold dear to my heart.

It's called the Palace of the
Legion of Honor and it's it

doesn't have a lot of
contemporary art, but it's up on

this hill on the ocean and
famously Alfred Hitchcock's

Vertigo was there.

Anyway, I have a lot of fond
memories of going and just

sitting in front of paintings at
the Legion of Honor and trying

to replicate them and but yeah,
so like art has always been part

of my life.

And then my father taught
painting, also ran a university

gallery which I would sometimes
kind of help with and in.

After I graduated from
university I began working in

galleries in New York and it was
something that I didn't I

actually didn't study art in
university.

I wanted to move away from,
from the arts which I had kind

of like come to consider and
come to associate with, like

just rocky financial times.

It's very difficult to be a
working artist and so I was like

I don't want to do that, like I
want to do something something

else, something more stable.

But then everything always came
back to the arts, because I

don't, I just can't get away
from it.

It's like what I'm most
passionate about.

So I began working in galleries
and curating small shows in New

York, where I was living at the
time, and then I did a master's

, which is partly at Columbia
University in New York, and then

my boyfriend at the time and
now my husband decided to move

to LA and I did.

I entered a PhD program in art
history at USC where I completed

my graduate degree, and we've
basically been in LA ever since

then.

So it's been quite a while now
and I have been working in kind

of all all dimensions of
contemporary art.

But I've had a long running
interest in art and technology.

My husband is a computer
software engineer with a

background in art and literature
and film, but because he's been

so close to code and and
computers, it's really like made

me very keyed in on what's
happening and developments that

are happening in technology, and
so I kind of you know in.

Sometimes in the art world
people tend to like focus on one

thing and I'm reluctant to say
that like my focus is art and

technology, because in actuality
I'm heavily invested in

painting and sculpture and dance
, but I really see technology

bleeding into all of these
mediums so, yeah, I have been in

my time in LA curating at
various museums as well as

galleries, and then I used to
teach a course on art and

technology at Loyola Marymount,
and it was a course that I

actually co-taught with my
brother who's who's a writer,

and it was a really cool course
that used critical theory and

new technology to look at the
relationship between humans,

machines and art.

And I, during the pandemic,
became aware of of programmable

blockchains.

I had been aware, kind of
peripherally, of artists using

the blockchain for
experimentations, but I didn't

really I didn't understand smart
contracts and had never heard

of an NFT before the pandemic,
and then it was during lockdown

that I became super excited
about this potential of finally

kind of finding a larger
platform for artists who were

working in time-based media,
working with digital tools, to

share their work, to create
markets for their work, to

create, you know, communities,
conversations around it via this

decentralized internet.

So that's kind of how I
gravitated towards web3 and then

I really kind of view my, my
interest in web3 again as kind

of bleeding into all of my
interests with with art more

broadly.

Yeah, how about you?

What?

How did you get into all of
this?

Speaker 1: I thanks for.

I mean thanks for asking, and I
love when people ask, you know,

ask questions back.

It makes it makes it more
conversational.

And I just want to comment and
say that such a there's a couple

things I mentally bookmarked
that I wanted.

That I want to double click on
maybe a little later in our chat

here.

But I'm happy and just love to
hear kind of how you, like,

basically went from first
discovering art to how you found

web3 and such a succinct way
and I think that it's just I

always love hearing people's
stories and so I love that you

touched on that.

So kind of how I found this was
I had outside of going to

museums.

As a kid I really kind of wrote
off art.

You know, for the most part I
was born in the early 90s and it

was just very similar to you
where it's just like it's cool,

it makes me feel good.

But that was still kind of the.

My parents were still very much
of the mentality and they, you

know and just you know that's
how they grew up and it's how

they were successful.

Like they.

You know art was not something
to really lean into.

You know it was just parents
want nothing but the best for

you.

So naturally they coached me,
you know, into something that

could be more sustainable and so
that what I, what I reason.

I say that is because for a
while I just almost

subconsciously just disregarded
art for the longest time and

then I kind of found a kind of
found my way into, you know,

working in legal technology.

I worked at a couple call
centers, you know.

I worked in our escalations, I
worked for kind of a startup

environment.

So I really kind of enjoyed,
you know.

I really kind of enjoyed
technology at its core level and

I mean a core memory and I'll
retrace a little bit and get you

know, kind of get to the more
intro, but I think it's

important to share that.

When you know, I watched the
key.

I used to watch all the Apple
keynotes.

Growing up, like I was just
enamored with Steve Jobs, still

one of my idols, like absolutely
like he's just a brilliant

human being and I remember when
he gave that first iPhone

presentation, I was like 15, you
know, or something around that

age, and I just remember getting
full body chills and thinking

like this device is gonna change
the world, like and I just knew

it and I didn't know how and I
didn't really follow that, but

that was one of my earliest kind
of core memories around my love

for technology was like, oh my
god.

Maybe most other people aren't
as psychotic around this as I am

.

You know, I just love this.

So fast forward to kind of the
legal technology days.

You know I.

You know I was.

It was an early 2021, I was on
a Twitter space and not on

Twitter space.

It was like when Clubhouse was
the most popular form of live

social audio and it was a week
after people made his like 69

million dollar sale and I was
like okay, like why, first and

foremost, what is this?

How do you buy a picture on the
internet?

Like why can't you just
right-click, save it?

Why do they spend this much
money on it?

You know, and I just remember
being so enamored and from the

moment I hit that Clubhouse chat
, you know, and heard some of

these guys talking about smart
contracts.

You know self-sovereignty, you
know royalties baked into code,

trusting code more than humans.

I'm like I don't know what this
means, but this feels really

cool and it was that same moment
that I had when Steve Jobs

first pulled the iPhone out, and
that is like the reason I tell

that part of the story was
because I remember having the

same thought of like oh my god,
this technology is probably

gonna change the world and this
feels really cool and I can get

in at the ground level, so
that's what I'm gonna do.

And I had no formal back, like
I was podcasting in eSports, so

I love video games.

So I just remember thinking
like I'm just gonna pivot.

You know, I was still so early
in my career that I was like I'm

just gonna pivot, I'm just
gonna interview anyone who will

want to come on to talk about
this, to help me learn more

about this thing.

That I can't quite.

I can't quite put into words
what the feeling is, but I know

I feel it.

If that makes sense, it's very
nebulous.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I
mean yeah, I mean I, you know,

we were probably on these same
conversations on Clubhouse.

It was.

It was a really interesting
moment and I felt, you know, one

of the things I remember
thinking at the time was that

people were sharing knowledge so
, so readily and openly.

You know whether it was like
okay, this is how you open a

wallet, or here are some sites
that you can trust to learn

about, you know, writing,
writing smart contracts and

whatnot, and that is a different
.

That kind of open source ethos
is part of the tech community,

but it's it's definitely quite
different than the art, the art

world which, yeah, it just
doesn't feel that way, even

though, in actuality, like now,
knowledge is there to be shared,

but that that I don't know,
sort of like really open,

friendly vibe is is is quite
different.

And I remember thinking this is
incredible, like people are just

they, you know, and it felt
like there was a kind of like

tidal wave of people from all
over the world who were excited

to come together and just kind
of experiments, and, even though

these have happened throughout
time, it was a first moment for

me that I was like I'm finally
here, like because, like my

husband was, has always been
super about tech and so he was,

you know, as like a
four-year-old taking apart

computers and remembers these
early chat rooms and but like I,

wasn't part of that early
internet culture and I kind of

missed out on it.

And so I'm just happy that I was
able to kind of enter this

community when I did, which is
definitely not the beginning,

but it feels like we're still in
the process of becoming and

everything is in flux, which is
a really, I think, great

situation for art, when things
are not set in stone and nothing

is really sort of like laid out
for you, but instead people are

just sort of going as they
create and coming up with new

problems and new solutions.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I mean, you touched on it.

There's a lot there that really
resonated, I think and I love

that you brought that up is the
fact that there was such a there

was this community that was
sharing trusted knowledge and

the whether it was websites,
whether it was podcast content,

whether it was, regardless of
where it was there was so many

people just freely sharing
information and it just felt

like I'm like what world is this
?

Because most people would make
you pay for this.

In the current world that we're
in, it's all back behind a

token gate or behind a paid
subscription to a newsletter or

the exclusive debt and people
were just giving it out for free

.

I'm like, wait what?

It was just so welcoming and I
think we entered in at a very

good time and it's interesting.

I often reflect, like if someone
was entering today, what advice

would I give them?

I'm like how to navigate it,
because there was not as much

information back then, but the
information was, I feel, a lot

more trustworthy and I don't
feel that it's necessarily the

same and it's part of, I think,
one of the missions that I just

take on as far as myself and
trying to share good information

.

I try to be that steward that
other people were to me, just to

pass it along to the next
person.

But there's another tangent.

I want to go on, and it relates
to more of your experience,

because you have one foot in
both worlds you have you're

deeply rooted in traditional art
and you're deeply rooted in

let's just call it just crypto
art or the Web 3 world, and you

mentioned there's these things
that are always in flux and it's

great for the creative process
and I feel like those are all

amazing things.

The one thing I wanted to touch
on and earlier that you

mentioned is that artists could
make markets for themselves, and

I found that to be really
interesting.

I want to ask, maybe give a
little context or some history

before this technology, how did
artists really make a market for

themselves?

What were really the tools that
were available to them and how

did they go about doing it, or
at least the ones that you found

were the most successful?

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's a
great question and I think

there's there's no like one
answer to that, because I think,

in actuality, creating markets
is very difficult and also, you

know, like there are different,
there are different paths and

different formulas, and I don't
think there's any sort of

formula that is something that
can be just replicated, and a

lot of it has to do with, you
know, luck and where you are at

the right time.

But I do think that, in general
, and I think this is, for the

most part, you know, still
largely intact right now, even

with all of the kind of new
paths that have been carved in

Web.

3.

I think artists have.

Well, you know, instagram
changed a lot for artists

because, for Instagram, in
general, people had to have had

to work with a gallery or be
very good at cultivating

relationships with patrons,
which some artists are

incredible at doing and able to
have, you know, to support

themselves through their art,
through sales of their art,

without a gallery.

That, of course, is not the
norm, because you know it takes.

I think what I am aware of even
more acutely the more I work in

the art world and the longer I
work in the art world, is how

much you need a village and a
team working with you to really

scale.

You know your projects and your
presence and so working with a

gallery where there is somebody
to help you navigate, getting

press about your work and help
you get your artwork in museum

exhibitions and bring your work
to fairs, those are things that

really help amplify and bring
people forward.

But all the same, I think
sometimes there is a like

looking through that situation
with rose-tinted glasses,

because the artist will still
have to do a lot of legwork on

their own.

Totally, you know, is when you
look within a stable of a

gallery, you can, you know you
will see artists that have more

active careers than others
within the same gallery, and

often it is because that those
individuals have figured out a

way to just, you know, keep
getting their work shown.

And I think it is when you look
at the careers of people who

have sustained a presence in the
art world over decades.

You see how much labor goes
into that and how sort of hustle

for better work for lack of a
better word really continues

through your whole career.

And I think you know, maybe,
that that wasn't I mean, it

wasn't the case.

You know that the art world has
grown significantly and changed

significantly since, like
probably after World War II,

things have become much more
global and commercial.

But with Web 3, what you know
and I think it's it's there are

moments when this is easier for
artists to do and moments when

it's actually really challenging
to do.

But what was interesting to me
when I really began to follow

this very closely, which was, I
guess, around 20, 20, well, when

was people, when did he do his?

Every days at Christie's?

That was in 2021?

.

Speaker 1: Yeah, March, I think
it was March or February of 2021

, I believe it was early March.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I
think that that's undeniably a

big catalyst for what artists
are doing now.

I think it really showed people
how dynamic, you know, this

technology could be in terms of
creating art markets.

That moment, of course, is very
different than the moment that

we're in now, but what you began
to see as artists would create

a whole kind of circle of, and
often you know what was really

interesting now that I look,
think back to it is I was really

struck in the beginning at how
early markets were created by

other artists, by artists
helping each other, and I

remember that being very much
the case even with like big PFP

projects, like board apes, which
I know people you know often

want to sort of like
disassociate with like this

larger conversation.

But for me it was all a
learning experience of trying to

understand how different
practices some being more

commercial and some being more
game, like we're using this

technology, and I remember there
being a whole circle of you

know artists who would come in
and support the work of a fellow

artist and they would kind of
create a kind of ground level

and then larger collectors would
hear about it and then you

would get this kind of second
tier market going, and very

quickly.

You would have a very like
liquid market which in the art

world would require a lot of
very high level actors coming

together to you know support
artists from all over the world,

and that would be something
kind of out of reach for

somebody you know on their
computer without access to

capital, and so I was very
interested in how that was kind

of going alongside royalties,
which have since become such a

sort of precarious aspect of
this technology.

But that was very exciting from
early on, the idea that artists

would be able to better benefit
from the secondary growth of

their markets.

I don't know where we are with
that right now and I think it is

really unfortunate that large
institutions like OpenSea, like

Blur, have kind of eaten away at
that, I think, foundational

component to what this can mean
over the long run.

I think it is actually very
short-sighted for the growth of

markets, but I hope we see it
come back.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I mean, yeah, and it is really
cool I swear we have.

There are so many different
thought processes that you have

just talked about in so many
different areas of this industry

that excites you and that you
have kind of questioned at times

or that you have looked further
into or thought about deeply,

that I have also done the same
as well, and something that I

have been really intrigued by
and this came up with you

hearing.

I have been intrigued since day
one because I struggle with it

myself.

At times, I look at a new
technology when it comes out and

I am like, oh my God, this is
just going to make my life so

much better and I am going to be
able to do more with also doing

less, but I am going to be able
to be lazy.

Essentially, I almost look at
it as a way to become more lazy,

but what I often realize is
that I spend way too much money

and then I realize that the
technology enables people to do

the thing easier, but you still
have to do the thing, and I

think that is what often gets
lost.

With especially the topic we are
talking about, you mentioned

artists.

Helping artists has been able
to unlock something new.

That would have required a lot
of high level actors in the

traditional art world, but it
still requires the work to be

done.

But I think it is just really
important to highlight the fact

that it can be done doesn't mean
it is just automatically done

for you.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, and I really resonated
with that, and it is something

that I am very personally
invested in myself because it

comes from a lot of years of
consistent struggling around me,

thinking some new piece of
shiny tech is just going to

change my life without me having
to do a thing.

Speaker 2: I mean I think that
is a great point because I do

sometimes over here
conversations with amongst

artists and with artists
comparing what they are trying

to do in Web 3 with what is
happening in the traditional art

world and in galleries, and
that whole infrastructure that

we were just speaking to of
somebody helping you to write

about your work and get your
work into X.

All of those aspects still have
to happen in Web 3 in order to

create artistic careers and
projects that have legs to go

forward for years into the
future.

And I think that is what you
know.

it is hard to replicate in this
space but it is certainly doable

and I think that the most
successful artists will figure

out a way to replicate that in
their own voice, in their own

terms, or to collaborate with
the traditional art world in a

way that is equitable and
beneficial to them.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Yeah, I mean it is a great, but
it also just goes to.

It is almost kind of similar to
life.

I mean, it is like you know, in
order to like kind of progress

and go farther, you need to,
like, you know, kind of give of

yourself freely to someone who
you know you can help and you

would be valuable to help, you
know, because you have the

experience or because you have a
certain skill set, and I feel

like it is just networking
one-on-one you know.

It is just kind of the
fundamental core of the human.

It is part of the human
experience.

If you want to go far, you need
to, like, you need to, you know

, help other people and people
will help you back.

And there is nothing, you know,
there is nothing magical about

it.

It is really simple, you know.

It is just part of humans'
desire.

Like we just that is just part
of how we are hardwired and I

feel like that is really kind of
what we are experiencing now.

Like I feel like 2021 was really
exciting, but it was also kind

of an anomaly, you know, of you
know a moment in time where we

all just happened to be in this
right place at the right time,

and you know whether it was PFP
collections or whether it was,

you know, one-on-one art or
one-on-one of X.

You know a lot of things were
just exploding for insane

valuations and you know I don't
a lot of artists like what I

know is could just meant work
and it would just sell and it

was just a truly unique moment
in time.

But I promise this, going on
the through line of where I want

to go to next, of, like you
know, when it comes to the, I

oftentimes hear and I still
haven't, like I really haven't

found a mental model for myself
and I oftentimes kind of

struggle with it around what
this space represents and also

the traditional art world.

You know, like I often think
like we're separate but I

oftentimes think that we're the
exact same, you know, and so

like, with where we're headed
and what we're building towards,

does this I'm just kind of
shooting from the hip right now,

like sharing some thoughts with
you.

Like it's like do we absorb?

Does the traditional art market
become a part of this?

Do we become a part of it?

Are we naturally kind of
operating in a parallel universe

next to each other?

Will we sometimes hop over and
take a dabble in the other one's

pool.

You know what I mean.

I've often so I and it's been a
question that you know I don't

really know the answer to and
with someone who is kind of is

you know, you built cocktail
labs, you partner with the LACMA

and would love to maybe get
into that collaboration soon as

well, but kind of, how do you
view the way in which we're

headed?

How do you kind of view it?

I guess the relationship to the
in relationship to the

traditional art world, does it
need to be a part of it?

Does it not need to be a part
of it?

Do we?

You know what I mean.

These are just the questions
that kind of keep me up.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.

Well, I think, you know,
sometimes it feels like we are

on sort of like parallel,
disconnected sort of tracks.

I don't feel that way as much
because my my work is very cross

disciplinary and I operate in
lots of different worlds.

But certainly it's very rare
that I encounter I don't

frequently encounter artists,
collectors, curators in the

traditional art world that are
following what is happening in

Web 3.

But that's not to say that
people are not following what's

happening with art and
technology.

I think that you know.

You know, I mean, sometimes
things are, for instance, in

museums and the way art history
is taught in in colleges.

Things are often sort of siloed
off into into different mediums

.

You know, it's photography,
it's painting, and I think that

there have been various attempts
to break down those barriers

because it's it.

As much as it's helpful to,
like you know, understand the

specificities of a certain
medium, it's also very limiting

and artificial and most, most
creative.

You know, thinking really comes
from breaking down these

barriers.

So I don't know, I think that
there have, there's always been

a attention to new media and new
technologies in art and that

goes back, you know, to all
sorts of tools from photography,

which I think has a lot to kind
of teach us in terms of the

reception of photography in the,
the greater sort of canon of

art history.

It was very slow to be regarded
as art Because of the interest

of this machine it was.

You know, it took many decades
for photography to enter, you

know, the collections of
institutions, for photographers

to be able to copyright their
work, and a lot of these

conversations feel very similar
to the conversations we're

having around machine learning
and a handfuls for art.

But I think so, but in terms of
like, the, the kind of grounds

for contemporary art and what is
happening in museums, I think

this, this, this dialogue we
have with technology, is very

important to, to, to incorporate
and to bring into to future

programming, and there's very
few institutions that don't have

it on their minds.

You know it.

You know, before the pandemic,
there were many institutions

that were still struggling to
get their collections digitized,

to get more digital content,
whether it's podcasts or, you

know, video cast, so like, and
yet that is the way that new

audiences are being cultivated
and and brought in.

Museums, I think, are
incredibly important

institutions and and totally
public contemporary society.

I think there's, like you know,
been this slow kind of eating

away at a public space for
creative thinking and and just

places that people can go to
kind of get a respite from, from

the stresses of everyday life.

I think museums play a very,
very vital role in that.

They certainly play a vital
role in the education of

children in in cities around the
world.

The Los Angeles County Museum
of Art, LACMA, where we have

been working, for instance,
plays a very important role in

Los Angeles in terms of bringing
in thousands and thousands of

children into the museum every
year for school field trips, for

programs, and so being able to
connect with these kids through

digital tools and through
digital media is something that

everybody knows is important,
because anybody who has kids

know that when you bring them to
a museum and there's some

touchscreen or something that
they can interact with in that

way, they will gravitate towards
that first, for better or for

worse.

But you know, it is how, their
language, and so to ignore what

artists, dancers, poets are
doing with these tools is to

sort of ignore contemporary
practices, which, you know,

people are still sculpting in
marble, but this is clearly the

medium of the 21st century, and
so you know, I think you see new

media in in art history and in
museums.

You know, over time, over many
decades, web 3 is just a kind of

new, new tool.

The blockchain is just a new
tool to experiment with and to

kind of root these practices,
because I think you know, for so

long, artists who were working
with code or were working with,

you know, digital tools like
Cinema 4D that people use, and

these were practices that had
huge followings.

You know huge communities
online, much like you said, you

know your background is in
gaming and in some ways I think

gaming is such a paradigm shift
for for art and for how we

experience culture.

But like there was not an easy
way for artists to say, say I

made this, I'm going to, you
know, move that I created this

file, it would just be released
on Instagram or whatever avenue

and become, become what it would
become, but it would be hard to

sort of track that provenance
to the original artists, and so

I think like this is both a way
to track the way to use the

tools itself.

You know, there are artists
like DeafBeef, who we have

worked with, who is really
exploring, like the

specificities of blockchain.

What can you do with blockchain
that you can't do elsewhere?

And then there's the
communities that come to life

through these interactions,
which in many ways are web two,

communities that come together
through a kind of like through

web three creations.

Yes, that was kind of all over
the place.

Speaker 1: No, if you know you
can chat with anyone that I've

ever had on here is that, like I
.

One of my favorite parts is
when people go on a really big

tangent because there's, I feel,
like some of the more scripted

answers it.

You don't really get to
understand what people care

about through them as much
versus the little kind of like

tangents that we get to go on of
like or little rabbit holes.

I guess we should say,
considering it's so native to

web three, we're all in the one
giant rabbit hole here.

But I love it.

No, so don't, please, don't
ever.

You know, please don't feel
like you're rambling too much.

There's a lot to go off there
and you know, deaf beef was like

someone he's still someone that
I just look at his work and I

have no clue how it's made.

I have no clue how he thinks
about the world, like.

I remember when we had him on a
space and I was just like what

do I even ask this guy?

Like what do I ask this guy?

Because he, you know, and he's
a, he's an extreme example, but

he's really pushing that
boundary of like, what can you

only do with this technology
that you can't do with another

one?

And I and I think that you
touched on something really

we'll pivot there in just a
second but I wanted to comment

on was that you kind of gave me
an unlock here around the

acceptance of digital, of like.

You know, digital art, digital
identity in our current society.

Because, you know, when I step
outside into the world, that is

not this world, I, I'm, I'm, I'm
stopping, I'm not using of like

in real life because to me,
this is in real life.

I don't know, you know, how
else to live.

So, but when I talk to some of
my friends who aren't

necessarily participating in
this industry, you know there's

still this like weird disconnect
of like.

Everyone agrees that we're going
very digital as a society, but

when you talk about, when you
mentioned the idea of like, what

happens if Facebook goes down,
or if Instagram goes down, or if

Twitter God forbid goes down,
what happens to your identity

and what happens to you know
everything that you've built up

over.

Why do we spend?

Why do people spend hundreds of
thousands of dollars?

Well, you know this is about a
year ago, but why would you

spend so much money for a blue
checkmark?

Why are people trying to get a
blue checkmark?

So bad is because digital, the
digital life, is starting to

matter a lot more and I think
that we're going.

We're going increasingly digital
as a society and I feel like

it's almost like this slow kind
of burn or this slow acceptance

of just the general consensus
that, like, maybe digital

objects, we should find a way to
own them.

You know, maybe our digital
identity we should have more

control over than we currently
do, which you know, when I tell

people that around PFP
specifically, they're like oh,

that makes sense, it's not just
some stupid monkey.

I'm like I mean, you're not
wrong, but it's so much more.

There's so much more to it than
that.

So I think you just gave an
unlock there and it's really

interesting to see how this all
progresses.

I will just personally say that
that getting to see like

watching Christie's and
Sotheby's in the early days of

when they started entering here,
I wasn't as much of a fan of,

but fast forward to today, you
can really tell that they're

making a conceded effort and
they're really kind of finding

and creating new ways that make
sense to them as an organization

.

I think they don't really get
as enough credit as they should,

because no one here knows what
the hell they're doing.

This is one big experiment like
we've been talking about.

I just find it really
interesting to see people evolve

with it.

As it evolves, going back to
the through line of everything

is kind of in fluid and emotion
right now, which typically isn't

like that.

There's not really a whole lot
of times in history where the

world is kind of open to new
ideas, whether it's with machine

learning, whether it's with
Jenner Bart, whether it's

blockchain technology.

There's a lot of new things
happening and I think it's just

disrupting a lot of the way
people think.

I'll close with this thought
before we move on.

Naturally, I guess it makes
sense why people want to deny it

or people are scared of it, or
people don't really want to

embrace it because it means a
disruptive change in the way

they live their life, the
current models that you were

either taught or put in place
themselves, etc.

Speaking of experiments, though
, really kind of how we started

to get to know each other a
little bit more was through your

collaboration with LACMA, where
you commissioned, I don't want

to say, the project, but for
those who were unaware of it,

we'd love to kind of know how
that collaboration with LACMA

came about and really what the
purpose of that was and why it's

important.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so LACMA is the
Los Angeles County Museum of

Art and it is a museum that is a
world-renowned museum that has

almost sort of baked into the
DNA of the museum a foundation

in art and technology.

Shortly after the museum was
founded, there was a now

historic program that took place
called the Art and Technology

Program.

It ran from 1967 to 1971, and
that was just a couple of years

after LACMA was founded.

That program basically brought
together leading artists of the

day and leading technologists
and technology institutions of

the day, like IBM, like RCA
Television, like the Jet

Propulsion Laboratory in
Pasadena which builds rockets.

The artists were individuals,
like Andy Warhol and James

Terrell and Robert Irwin, klaus
Oldenburg.

One thing to note is that it
was a large group of artists and

they were all men and they were
all white men.

That speaks to the structures
of the art world at large, which

are always rooted in societal,
economic infrastructures.

That is something that has
changed significantly over the

years at the museum, because the
Art and Technology Program was

sort of rebooted about 10 years
ago and is now the Art and

Technology Lab.

It has a little bit of a
different focus, which is that

the lab gives grants to artists
to realize ambitious projects

that really push the boundaries
of what we're able to do with

technology, projects that, in
particular, are really trying to

use technology in new,
unintended ways and to say

things that are important on a
societal level.

Oftentimes, when one talks about
technology, there's a sort of

techno-optimism, that kind of
cloud the realities of

technology, which is that a lot
of the software is being created

by large corporations and they
have profit motivations first

and foremost in mind.

That's often the case, and
artists, I think, have an

ability to look at that
technology whatever it may be

and try to let us see what might
be possible outside those

profit-driven aims.

And so for me, the role of art
in technology is really crucial.

I think that artists play a
very, very important role,

because technology is never
going to go away.

Technology is not something
that is something that started

with computers.

Technology is something that
started with the dawn of man and

tools that we were making to
build civilizations, and so how

art can move us into, hopefully,
a more humanitarian kind of

mindset with technology, that's
what I think is most exciting.

But anyway, lacma, as I'm
talking, has this very rich

history of art and technology,
and these histories have been

animating different exhibitions
at the museum over many decades.

The Art and Technology Lab is a
very specific institution within

the museum that is able to
bring projects forward, and when

artists began really
experimenting with blockchain in

such a big way a few years ago,
the museum took note and

gathered a team of curators,
including the head of the Art

and Technology Lab, joel Ferre,
and curators like Deandre Lawson

and Celia Yang, and they got a
smart wallet and thought okay,

we have a background in art and
technology here.

We want to make sure that we
are paying attention and

bringing in new works to the
collection that are part of this

new technology, these new tools
.

And we were invited.

So I have been working mostly
as a curator with LACMA but with

other museums in Los Angeles
always, or often independently,

and so we were invited, my
husband and I, to help shape a

program together with many
different departments at LACMA

that will explore and will
explore what blockchain can do

museologically, and I think
we're just really at the

beginning of trying to
understand all these various

facets, because they can mean
exhibition focus, pas membership

token, pas tickets.

But thus far we have been
working on a project called

Remembrance of Things Future,
which has invited contemporary

artists using blockchain as one
of their tools to respond to

works in LACMA's permanent
collection and make new digital

additions in support of the
museum's art and technology lab,

and one of the goals of the
program is to one experiment

with the technology, just like a
period, but to broaden the lens

that we talk about blockchain
native art through.

I think that one thing that's
been very acutely present for me

as a kind of curator and
observer, is that the work being

done in this space is often
viewed in a vacuum of kind of

like this present and this
specific technology, and then

the kind of difficulties of
market speculation and all of

this sort of talk, and there
hasn't been enough focus on the

art itself, and the art is often
using blockchain as a tool.

That is, of course, in dialogue
with narratives that have

nothing to do with blockchain,
whether that's storytelling and

quilt making or it's the history
of photography, which certainly

predates blockchain, and so we
wanted to basically give a

prompt to artists to engage with
the past and with this idea

that the future is the past and
like today is suddenly history

tomorrow, and these tools that
were once really revolutionary,

like the camera, are now not new
, whereas blockchain will soon

be in that position.

It feels very new now, but
things are constantly morphing

and we'll look back on this
moment and we already are

looking back on 2021 with a
sense of sort of hysterical.

So, yeah, I want to kind of
create these dialogues

throughout time, because for me
time is not linear and it's

circular and the past is the
future and vice versa, and so

having a kind of rich set of
stories to route these

explorations in is really
important.

Speaker 1: I think so too, and
thank you for really, you know,

thank you for kind of giving me
some history on the LACMA as

well.

I didn't fully know Like I had
done a very I wouldn't even call

it research, but like I
definitely scoped their website

and definitely looked around,
but to hear that from your

perspective and why you were
initially drawn to them, it

really speaks volumes.

And I'll tell you a lot of
artists, that y'all that did a

lot of the work or that did the
why am I fumbling here?

But they took a look at the
piece and they made something

based off the past, they made
their own interpretation on it.

That was really where I first
discovered MLG and I was very

new to generative art,
especially this year.

This year, like last year, was
the year where I really kind of

sunk my teeth into it because
kind of again reflecting back on

2021, I kind of just sat there
idly and watched generative art

just kind of take off and have
its little moment I wouldn't

call it a little moment, but it
was a pretty big moment that it

had and I couldn't, I didn't
fully grasp it and I didn't

really want to get involved
based off of just purely

financial reasons, you know,
because I'm like I didn't really

fully get it, but I'm like why
is this valued so high?

Why are people so obsessed with
this?

Like?

So I just kind of sat by idly
and watched it.

But 2023 was really the year
where I made a conceited effort

to try to understand the medium
a lot more, because, obviously,

I'm working in this industry
full-time and I deeply love it

and, to me, this industry is
really what kind of allowed

generative art to finally become
a lot more respected.

And I say all that to say that
Emily, when Emily was a part of

this, that was the first
generative artist that I really

looked back at a lot of her
collections through the

Rememberance of Things Future
and I was like, oh my God, out

of all the 2021 collections you
know, like as much as I love a

lot of them, this is the one you
know.

Her collections really speak to
me because it allows it,

allowed me to really approach it
from a newcomer's perspective

of like, wow, this is a quilt.

Okay, cool Quilt is something
that I'm very familiar with.

It's something my grandmother
used to make a lot of quilts and

she makes custom quilts, and
that was really like my way to

like really appreciating and
kind of falling in love with it.

And then going back on her and
I'm probably going to butcher

the name, but the Memories of
Keen, I think is how you say it

from our blocks, early art
blocks collection.

So I just find it really cool
that you guys have found a way

to thoughtfully and tastefully
enable a new dialogue, and I

really liked your comment around
art being really crucial for

the growth of technology,
because, and to kind of view

what can be done through this
without a lens of let's just

call it capitalism?

You know, in capitalism, you
know it's arguably the reason

I'm here today, it's arguably
the reason why most of us are

doing what we're doing, and so
I'll never paint it in a bad

light.

But it does have its downfalls,
you know.

It does have its sides where
it's like not so great.

You know no systems perfect,
and so I think that having that

kind of creative side, balance
it out harmoniously, is

something that I didn't really
think about until literally this

moment, and I think it's really
interesting and it kind of

helps make it click a lot more
for me, just on a personal level

.

And last thing I'll say here on
this is you know this really the

title of what you the I guess
the title of the project of what

you guys have remembered
something's future.

It kind of just really stuck
with me literally just now, of,

like you know, when I'm in fear
personally, when I'm in fear,

it's either about something that
I've done in the past affecting

something that's going to
happen in the future, and it

immediately takes me away from
the immediate moment, which is

really all we have.

So your comment of like the
past is the future and the

future is the past really kind
of just stuck with me.

I'm like, wow, most of the time
where I spent worrying is

usually in one of those two
realms.

It's never in the present,
because if we really dial into

this moment right now, there's
truly nothing to be scared about

, and so I don't know, for
whatever reason, that just

really clicked and I can really
appreciate even just down to the

details of the title of what
you guys did.

I just wanted to, really I
wanted to share that because it

was, I don't know.

It made me think about that in
a new way.

Speaker 2: Well, cool, yeah, I
mean, who was I going to say?

Yeah, I think you know Emily to
reiterate your fascination with

Emily's work.

Emily was responding to Solakma
has a large fabric and textiles

collection and she became very
interested in exploring that

collection and looking at quilt
making as both a tradition that

is very much about storytelling
and passing down stories through

generations, through families,
through, you know, both

figurative and abstract
creations.

But also quilt making has a
computational logic that is

often overlooked and a kind of
mathematical logic that is

overlooked.

And zooming out past that,
textiles in general are actually

quite pivotal to the history of
computers, and that's something

that I didn't mention, which is
that when we started this

project, solakma had a really
groundbreaking exhibition up

called Coded Art Enters the
Computer Age, and it was curated

by Lackma's curator, leslie
Jones, who recently retired from

the museum.

It looked at 1952 to 1982,
which was basically the era of

mainframe computers, when
computers look up like an entire

block in a city and were less
powerful than your phone, and

that moment the birth of modern
computers was when artists,

poets, dancers first began
experimenting with these digital

tools, and early mainframe
computers got a lot of their

early technology from punch card
technology, which was created

for the Jacquard loom in France,
which was part of the

industrialization of textile
production, and early computers

were.

There were a number of very
important early thinkers in

terms of the development of
computers who were women, who

happened to be women, and the
punch card technology was

something that women were very
involved in.

It was rooted in textile
production, and so Emily wanted

to sort of bring that out
through her work, kind of

subliminally.

It's not legible when you just
look at the works themselves,

but it's all there and was part
of her intent with that project

and with coded, the historical
exhibition.

It was also an opportunity to
not just have artists like Emily

, like Deaf Beef, looking at
works from the past, but also to

put them into dialogue with the
early pioneers of computer art,

people like Vera Molnar, who
just passed away, who was based

in France for her whole career I
think she was 99.

Yeah and Manfred Moore, who is
alive and well in his mid-80s

but one of the pioneers of
computer art.

So these individuals were.

When they were working with
computers there were no monitors

, people could not see what they
were coding, they couldn't

print out what they.

So it was a very different way
to work and it was a very

arduous way to work, where
people had to get access to

either new big corporations like
IBM or universities that had

computer labs and they had to
learn early coding languages

like FORTRAN to do anything, and
so a lot of what we are doing

today really rests on the paths
carved by these early artists.

Speaker 1: That is.

That's really fascinating and
I'm glad that you took me back,

or you took us back to kind of
the early computer days, because

it's really hard to
conceptualize computers taking

up that much space and to be
working on them without a

monitor.

It's hard to even think about
what that means and how they

function.

I just couldn't imagine doing
that today.

If you took it away, what would
happen?

I think people will look back
on some of the super early days

of what we're building here and
think how the hell did they do

that?

How did they do it with these
insane transaction fees?

How did they do it with these
incredibly so block times?

How did they do it without
whatever layer we end up

transacting the most on?

I find it personally fascinating
because in my journey through

generative art you know you
mentioned that a lot of women

were really key into the early
development of this art form.

I would say, if you can check,
like whoever's listening can

check my wallet, but like and
this probably 90 to 95% of all

the generative art I've
collected is from women and I'm

not really sure.

I just naturally gravitated
toward that, whether it's

Jimenez Buena Fida or whether
it's through Emily Edelman or

whether it's, you know.

You know I would love to
collect a piece by Emily one day

, but I haven't, you know, it's
just not quite there yet, you

know.

But there's a lot of other
artists and they've all been

women.

And the more I learn about
generative art, the more I

realize, like how kind of it's a
word I'm looking for, how big

of a role that women played in
bringing this technology to life

or bringing this art form to
life.

That I think often gets
overlooked and it's not to like

knock, you know, obviously I
have the Dmitri Cherniak Print.

It's not to like, it's not
taking away, but it's just more

of like.

This feels like very much a
technology that Women really

mostly brought to life and
really key, important ways.

And not to discount, like I
said, anything else, but that's

just like my you know,
observation, call it, after a

year of collecting and something
I've learned.

Speaker 2: Well, that's, that's
cool, I mean, and I'm it's, it's

.

Yeah, I think Women have played
very key roles in, in in

Generative art, in in the
development of computers.

Of course, you know, in terms
of art markets and the art world

, there's there's a there's a
big gap In the market caps of

men versus the market caps of
women.

You know most museums are still
heavily weighted with, with the

creations of of men, and you
know women and artists of color

are Are it's.

It's a big it's.

There's a lot of work to be
done in terms of telling

accurate stories of how art is
shaped over the years.

But I think that these new
avenues and and kind of new

Movements are Very helpful in
bringing in, just you know, more

opportunities and and because
that there's, there's things are

not as set it can be that's up
to say that it will be or it

just naturally will be but it
can be a place where artists who

have had difficulty getting
traction can find Success.

That wasn't possible outside of
of this new opportunity.

So I mean, that is my hope.

I think there there are
precedents for that.

Historically, you know,
photography as an example Was

because it was a kind of new
field.

It was a place where
photographers of color and women

were able to make strides which
wouldn't have been possible in

the field of painting but
because photography was new and,

for instance, like Roy Dakar of
an amazing African-American

photographer who did a lot of
both abstract photography and

Documenting of jazz musicians I
believe he was one of the early

Photographers and
African-American photographers

to have a solo exhibition at
MoMA in like the early 1950s,

and I'm people I'm sure have
written about this and so I.

I don't.

I Can't speak with a ton of
authority on this history, but I

recall that, like that was one
of the early exhibitions at MoMA

for for photographers and black
photographers, and I would

imagine it had something to do
with the fact that Photography

was a little bit less of a
defined Medium at the time and

there were fewer.

There were fewer barriers and,
and you know, I think we will

see that and I hope we will see
that With with new digital tools

.

I think certainly like for me,
this whole web 3 Space has put

me in touch with artists all
over the world, and part of that

has also just been the pandemic
.

Before the pandemic, I didn't
ever use zoom and so the thought

of doing Like a video studio
visit with someone halfway

around the world Didn't really
dawn on me, even though it would

have been possible, and now
it's like pretty common that

every week I'm talking to
somebody and doing, you know, a

studio visit with them and and I
don't know if I will ever meet

them in person.

So I think Anyway, I think
that's what's exciting is that,

like there's, there's a less
defined kind of like path and

and hopefully we can keep it
very Open and and an

experimental totally.

Speaker 1: I love how we've kind
of just had a natural through

line and kind of Landed right
where we almost started around.

This technology being this
technology representing kind of

things going in motion or the in
a distra, you know, like where

things are were once kind of
static, or still now they're a

little bit more fluid, they're a
little less defined, and I love

how we've kind of landed on
that nearly an hour and a half

after we first started.

So I feel like that's a natural
, I think.

I think we should probably
start wrapping it up here, and

so I'd love to, first and
foremost, just thank you for

your time like this has been a
treat.

I've gotten an incredible dose
of knowledge that I did not have

coming into this, and so I just
want to thank you for.

Thank you for not only doing
this but just kind of going so

in depth.

It's really cool to hear you
know your relationship to to

just art in general, to this
medium specifically, to Just to

everything, and so I just want
to take a moment to thank you

for for, yeah, just sharing all
that knowledge with me today.

Speaker 2: Well, thank you, I
mean I I really have had so much

fun with with the whole
Schiller team.

You know we've worked on a
number of conversations with

artists and the museum together
and I think what you guys are

doing is just such such a
important Asset for for both.

You know, historicizing like
what, what is happening through

these conversations and the
support you guys give to two

artists through through these
conversations and through your

collecting is is Very important.

So I'm so happy that that I you
know that you suggested having

this talk today and, yeah, this
is great.

Speaker 1: Amazing.

Yeah, well, first, yeah, thank
you for Thank you for saying

it's oftentimes, you know, I
think there was a talk during

our basil where Sam Spratt was
interviewing us no fro, and he

was.

He was like, do you ever just
kind of stop to kind of think

about what you're doing here?

You know, like really stop to
kind of take it in?

And I wasn't there for that
talk and I think it's recorded,

so I really need to go back and
listen to it.

But I really like every time
someone says that it just kind

of makes me stop a little bit.

So, thank you for Thank you for
those kind words, like it really

means a lot and we, we love
what we do and I just I say this

constantly like I don't I,
after working with this crew for

a year, I really couldn't
imagine doing anything else with

anyone else and it's just been
a lot of fun.

So, you know, hopefully we get
to do a little bit more

collaborating in the future.

It's been a blast to do that in
the past and so, in speaking of

that, just want to give you a
moment if there's anything that

you can share of what cactoid
labs is up to, maybe, for you

know, 2024.

Like I said, if there's, if
there's stuff you can't share,

don't feel pressured, but we'd
love to kind of know what's on

the horizon for you guys.

Speaker 2: Yes, well, we are
continuing with these

collaborations of Artists and
objects from the museum.

So, and Alongside that, I'm
thinking about various kind of

rubrics to to investigate
Alongside the museum, one being

machine learning and an AI,
which is something that of

course is, is kind of ever
present, and in the news, it's

something that my husband is
doing machine has been doing

machine learning for almost 20
years, so it's it's something

that is very sort of Native to
the way he works.

I'm particularly interested in
how artists are using machine

learning to to understand the
organic world and the natural

world, things like using neural
networks to understand language

patterns of animals, and so I'm
I'm doing a lot of research into

that and hoping to bring some
of these things to light with

with artists that you know, and
Then I'm also, which goes very

much into your background, I'm
really interested in trying to

look at video games and video
game history as as a kind of

paradigm shift for how we both
communicate and create and

Trying to kind of like
historicize some of that bring.

It's a gather with artists who
are also looking at at these

issues.

So so that will all hopefully
come to light in this coming

year and, yeah, so I will all be
taking shape.

We're in the process of
researching and working with

artists and working with the
museum and in Good time, I'll be

able to share a little bit more
.

Speaker 1: Fantastic.

I love how you're able to to
share exactly what your focus is

without sharing the specifics,
and it have it get me excited.

So Thank you for for sharing
that and I think it's gonna be

an amazing 2024.

Very keen on both of those
topics, had a chat with Eli from

proof Eli Shiman and we were
talking about some of the

dialogue around AI being
critical in 2024 or that there's

gonna be a lot more dialogue
around.

You know the process or you
know how the work is made to

document.

You know just different
dimensions of documenting, how

you know AI art is made From the
collector's perspective as well

.

So people kind of understand
you know what they're buying.

You know, like, why it's
important, why it's interesting

and different.

So, yeah, definitely looking
forward to that.

Very, very excited about the
technology and I, especially as

a dog person, you know
Understanding animal language.

Oh my god, if I could talk to
my dog, that would be so cool.

Speaker 2: I know, well I think,
that that we're getting closer

to to that.

Well, I'm excited to, yeah, to
keep talking, and so we'll have

to.

We'll have to connect again
offline and and brainstorm some,

some ideas, but this has been
great.

Thank you so much for having me
, and I look forward to seeing

you and the rest of the Schiller
team In 2024 in person

somewhere in the world, I hope.

Speaker 1: Exactly somewhere in
the world.

I mean, we're, we'll be at a
few different conferences and

yeah, I'm a big hugger, so you
know, if you're not, let me know

, just be prepared.

So but yeah, this has been a
lot of fun and yeah, we'll go

ahead and do a little sign off.

Just hang out for a little bit
afterwards so we can let this

finish uploading.

But Okay.

I hope you have a fantastic
rest of your day and again,

thanks so much for coming on,
lady Cactoid.

Speaker 2: Thank you so much for
having awesome day.

Speaker 1: You too.

Thank you for listening to the
Schiller curated podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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Until next time, this is Boona
signing off.