Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the

Schiller Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Eli Scheinman, head of

art at Proof.

We discussed many important
topics, such as the dimensions

and challenges of authentic
storytelling, physical prints as

an onboarding mechanism for
traditional art collectors, the

importance of understanding an
artist's creative process and

much, much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now grab some coffee and let's
dive into this conversation with

Eli.

All right, we are live in, eli.

Gm.

Sir, how are you?

Speaker 2: GM, gm, I'm doing
well, man.

I'm excited to chat and it was
so nice to see you in Miami in

person for the first time.

Excited to dig in.

This should be a lot of fun,
dude.

Speaker 1: I mean, we actually
had the pleasure of hanging out

multiple times, whether it was
in the car, whether it was at

the Proof house, whether it was
at the Schiller house.

We started off right away.

I mean it was really great to
land in Miami and then go hang

out with you guys.

That was my first event.

It was a lot of fun, man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it was great.

You guys had this wonderful
setup.

Without saying too much.

You had these two houses that
were adjacent to each other and

always good vibes every time we
went over there.

Best vibes at the Schiller
house.

Speaker 1: Thanks, man.

I mean we really try and it's
cool to hear that reciprocated

when people pick up what we're
trying to put down, and we're

really grateful to be doing what
we do.

I joined Schiller in January
and I still just pinch myself

that this is what we get to do
for a living.

Speaker 2: Just to react to that
for a moment.

It's amazing the quality of
humans that are on your team.

Yes, you obviously.

I mean everyone knows that
about you.

You're a high-intensity good
human.

But I met Connor, I met
Bernardo, I spent time with

Fungi in person for the first
time.

I might be missing oh, eli,
there's an Eli on your team and

just all very high-intensity
good humans, and so it was fun

to see that in person get to
spend time together.

Speaker 1: Man, thank you.

I mean, that's really when I
was debating, whether you know,

like when we were kind of in
chats about me joining, it was

just like that was what I always
came back to is like there was

not one person that I didn't
look up to in a certain way,

someone that didn't operate with
high integrity, someone who

said no to things that they
didn't vibe with.

You know someone, who you know
people.

It just I hadn't really met a
more cohesive team and every

time I kept finding some you
know risks or challenges.

I'm like it kept the whole.

Every time I poked a hole, the
hole filled right back up.

So it was like I couldn't find
a reason to not want to join

this team.

Like I really, you know, I
really tried just to make sure I

did my due diligence, but it's
been one of the best decisions I

ever made.

It's.

These guys are just absolutely
stacked and it's been quite the

year, man, and I'm sure you know
you can quite attest to that as

well with all the Grails
launches, with all the things

you guys have been doing at
Proof.

I mean I told you earlier like
I've had to mostly just watch

from the sidelines for a lot of
things, but getting to see, like

what you guys have built,
especially on the art side you

guys have worked with some of my
favorite artists and the way

you guys do Grails and the way
you guys are, the amount of

intent and the amount of effort,
especially on the media side,

it's obviously very personal to
me, you know, as I am the

director of media at Schiller.

So from that standpoint I don't
think anyone holds a candle.

So it's, I appreciate that man.

Yeah, dude, it's, and I know
it's not cheap, I know it's

really hard, I know it's a lot
of work to do.

Speaker 2: It's a lot of work
and you know, first of all,

appreciate that and then, yeah,
man, it is a lot of work but and

a lot of the work is certainly
not done by me you know, we have

such an amazing in-house media
team led by our director of

media, mauricio, who you should
definitely meet and time with.

He's outstanding, he's built a
great team.

But what we we have internally
is a really deep commitment to

doing the work to to effectively
tell those artist stories.

That feels like, you know,
there's some white space there.

There's an opportunity there to
really lean in and tell those

stories in a way in which the
artists have not had them told

before, and that you know.

That, I think, from a collector
perspective, is valuable and

important and it all feeds into
this, this paradigm where you

and I and all of us are trying
to build.

That broadens the accessibility
of digital art and and the

digital artists who are in the
space today.

But it's also, from the artist
perspective, you know, I think,

a fundamental reason why working
with Proof and releasing work

with us is of interest, because
you know to be totally

transparent and frank, most of
the artists who release work in

those grails shows that you
mentioned and we did three of

them last year and we've done
five in total.

You know they don't need us,
they don't need, frankly, any

platform to release work and and
effectively sell it.

You know these are artists who
have an existing collector base

and their own audiences.

The reason they find what we're
doing, I think, attractive and

interesting is is exactly for
that, that core reason around

the storytelling and media side
of it.

That's valuable to them and so,
by extension, doing a show like

that it is interesting.

But just to double click even
further, you know, when we

started doing those grail shows
in in season one in particular,

I would say the sort of primary
experience from a collector

perspective was about the
guessing game and the

speculation.

Yeah, you know who could it be.

Yeah, what does that mean in
terms of you know what I might,

might make in terms of being
able to sell the piece that I've

minted and the whole project
and and experience I think was

was pretty deeply rooted in that
from the collector experience.

And what we've tried to do over
the course of the last several

of those shows is to move a
little further away from that

being the primary focus into.

This is fundamentally about
storytelling and that feels much

more aligned for me and I think
us as a, as an organization, is

that's the work we want to be
doing Totally, man and I was.

Speaker 1: There was a couple of
thoughts that went through my

head while you were saying that
in the word that kept keeps

coming to mind is dimensions.

You know, it's like the,
because I look at, I look at a

piece of art and that to me, is
only one dimension of the story

they're trying to tell.

You know, you could argue and I
still think it's a gray area,

but you know there's, you could
argue, the words that the artist

puts, you know, on on social
media or on on the Super Air

Prairie Drone Foundation, as
another dimension, yeah, and I

think that when you look at them
talking about the piece in the

space as another dimension.

But there's, you know, and I
think you, you and I probably

align on this really well is
that there's some parts of the

storytelling that doesn't feel
like the artist's job and it

feels like that's other people's
jobs to tell that story from an

entirely different lens in a
really unique and captivating

way.

Because you look at the artist's
role I mean, at least the way I

look at it is that there's so
much that goes into being an

artist, and especially in the
digital age, not that being an

artist was ever easy.

You know, the the opportunity to
make a footprint here is really

, as you said, there's a lot of
white space to make a footprint

but at the same time I think a
lot of people are realizing that

there's there's a lot more work
to it than really meets the eye

, yeah, and so so to see that
was really fun and I'm really

glad that you touched on kind of
where where you guys rooted in

the very beginning of season one
and I think you know, in an

interesting way.

I think it's great that you guys
started like that and then

pivoted, but you still kind of
kept a little bit of that ethos

in there, because I think that
still, as much as we are in it

for the art and the storytelling
, crypto as a whole is a

financial market and like it
almost kind of feels like an ode

to the culture to have a little
bit like a hint of that in

there, kind of like what Dave
Krugman did with drip drop, you

know like how he created.

Very similar to that there's an
ode to like the speculative

nature of the space, but it is
inherently a larger body of work

that tells a much bigger story
and I think finding useful ways

to implement that without making
it to primary focus is

incredible.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no,
I think that made sense and

like so I think that's true.

And then the other thing I
would tease out there is in the

way that that mechanic around
Grail's works, going back to

your point around context and
those different dimensions, at

the beginning of that experience
, from the collector perspective

, the singular, the only
dimension that exists is the

visual output.

All you have to to build your
understanding of the piece of

the artwork from is the artwork
itself no title, artist name, no

description.

And then, over the course of
the process, you increasingly

get those additional dimensions,
ultimately leading to robust

storytelling title, description,
artist name and maybe some

additional context from them,
from themselves on Twitter's,

into that effect.

So I like the way you're
thinking about that in terms of

those, those different
dimensions.

You know, it's so interesting,
like I had a conversation

yesterday with an artist that
we're working with and it was,

it was specific to that point
you made around what are the

roles and responsibilities, so
to speak, of an artist in this

space and in particular, as it
relates to communicating

externally about their work.

And you know we have a variety
of different distribution

opportunities that proof, we
have a podcast, we have our

Twitter account where we can do
spaces and other things.

We have our media site where we
can create, create video.

We have our Discord, our
token-gated Discord, where we

could do more intimate voice
chats, and I was having this

conversation with an artist
yesterday about whether those

any or all of those felt
authentic to them as a channel

for communicating about an
upcoming release or not.

And for them, in this specific
instance, most of those did not.

You know, they did not feel
authentic as opportunities for

them to express and communicate
about their work, and I actually

quite liked that, that an
artist felt that way and was

open to communicate that,
because I think, at least in

this space, most artists do the
same thing, which is I have a

drop coming up.

That means, by extension, I am
going to do a Twitter Spaces

three days before the drop or a
day before the drop and I'm

going to bring in some people to
that spaces that help signal.

This is an interesting like.

It's become a little bit
formulaic, and so to have an

artist be very candid with me
and say you know, I want

something that feels sort of
more of the project and of me

and more intimate and less
marketing, I love that.

And then then the challenges on
me and us meaning, you know,

proof to figure out, and then
I'm sure this is something you

guys think about is like how to
tell that story, how to

communicate those different
dimensions that we're circling

around in an authentic way and
in a per project way, so that it

does not feel formulaic and
that it actually feels additive

and an extension of the artwork
and concept more than anything.

I'm sure you know, at Schiller
you guys have different clients

and artists and projects where
if it were formulaic, it

wouldn't be interesting and you
probably have to really be

thoughtful about how you tell
those stories in very different

ways.

Speaker 1: You nailed it.

I mean you nailed it completely
, and that's really cool, that

it's also really interesting to
hear publicly that you know a

lot of the channels that we have
Don't feel native to, to the,

to the telling of the story, and
I'm really I appreciate you

sharing that, because it I think
we all Kind of know it, I think

we all kind of like feel it,
but it's not really something

that's spoken about a lot.

So I think, yeah, I'm just
gonna noodle on that for a

little bit, but the the point
around, you know, we and a

Schiller, we actually took the
first step to working with an

artist this past year was John
Carborn, and it was with the

seeker project.

And you know, because
historically in the past we

don't, you know, we, we never
worked with artists simply

because of the fact that we
didn't want to serve as An

additional middleman that was
extracting without providing

enough value to justify what we
were extracting.

You know, because you know we
all, we all got to eat.

We're not, you know, like we
have our own way of doing things

, but and so we all have what we
want to make, but we all we

also don't feel good about
charging too much For for what

we provide.

And John really came to us Kind
of knowing exactly what he

wanted but kind of struggling
with the, the presentation of it

, and so that was a great first
step into it.

But yeah, it was something it
was.

We treated him nothing like a
client.

You know, like it was very
different.

You know cuz John's not a
protocol, john's an artist.

You know.

John's not, you know, like an
art platform, john is an artist,

you know.

Speaker 2: So let me just react
to one other thing, which is,

you know, I think, one thing we,
excuse me, we wrestle with

quite a bit and we're we're sort
of learning as we go and and

have some good data points from
the last year is how much do you

as a you know, I think of proof
is some Some blend of

platforming gallerist.

So you know, how do we or
production partner is sort of

yeah, some version of those
three things how do we

effectively help sell and
package a release for an artist?

You know let's you know we were
just talking about John how do

we do that effectively in a way
that Tells the story but also

keeps the artwork that is at the
core of the entire thing front

and center?

And so, for example, we did one
release last year, earlier in

the year, where, upon reflection
, I think there was, there was

sort of too much branding Around
the release itself and, by

extension, the artwork, which
should have been the thing that

everyone was was focused on, was
focused on all the energy was

going into, actually got lost a
little bit because there were

these sort of superfluous Assets
and other things around it.

And so, finding that right
balance where you're, you're

telling a story, you're building
a mood, you're you're creating

an ethos and communicating that
ethos externally in a cogent way

and in a consistent way, but
always driving back to the

artwork fundamentally, yeah, is
is an interesting challenge.

Speaker 1: It really is, and I
think it's different for each

artist, you know, because an
artwork tells every, every body

of work tells an entirely
different story, and so, like

identifying what that is, how
can we tell that the most

authentically?

On the bird app, you know, or
on the ex app, or on whatever,

whatever other apps or whatever
whatever other distribution

channels that we, that we use?

It's it's fun, exciting, but,
like you said, it's incredibly

challenging because I imagine,
the way you, the way you guys

told you know summers, you know
summer story recently was very

different than how you guys told
some of the grails drops.

You know, like was very
different with how you did Joey

L's with was, which was very
different, you know I mean.

So it's yeah, I think you know
what I'm get.

I think the point I'm getting
at is that these are like, I

think they're almost some of the
funnest problems to have,

because I don't think I've been
so exciting to tackle a

challenge like this and it's
like.

These are really fun and the
fact that I think we're both in

a position to do that in a fun
way is really unique.

And so that kind of like lends
me to one of the just very,

really curious about you and
your journey.

Like, how do you like, how did
you get involved in curation?

Like, because, like, you're
like, the one thing I've noticed

is that, like, with every grail
shop, I'm like, dude, he's so

fucking on it.

Like, I'm like, how did like?

How did, yeah, dude.

So I would love to kind of just
unpack the story of like, what

made you want to dive into
curation so heavily?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so let me give
a Caveat and then answer your

questions.

So I always like to be
sensitive about Thinking of

myself as a curator because in
some respects I think that does

a disservice to professional, so
to speak, professional curators

who have a depth of
understanding about art history.

That that I do not, and so I
like to be Transparent and open

about that.

I think I play some version of
a contemporary curator At the

moment and what that really is,
and then I promise I'll answer

your question.

Yeah, but that really means to
me is that I Am a filter and I

do a lot of listening and
observing and I have my own

sense of taste, for sure, and
things, concepts, visual outputs

that I that I resonate with and
that I have strong personal

internal conviction about.

But I'm also very much a filter
for other smart people, great

collectors, other artists who
are sharing work of other

artists with me.

So so, without out of the way,
I have a pretty I've I took a

circuitous path to the work I'm
doing now.

So my academic training is in
Contemporary history,

interesting some, some art
history, some architectural

history, in fact, and then, at
the master's level, my focus was

on political ecology, which is
basically power dynamics Between

in, in many cases, farmers and
and government entities.

So, yeah, so and, of course,
like there are, there's a

relationship, you know, we in
with political ecology and

everything happening in crypto
and and digital art.

For sure, lots of, lots of
through lines Across one level

of fidelity Less so in other
ways Mm-hmm.

But you know, I finished my
masters and, as I was, as I was

doing so, kevin and I met Kevin.

Rose and I met In a pretty sort
of happenstance way and then,

over the course of the next
seven or so years, we worked

together building a couple of
technology products, so things

that were very aligned with our,
our passions, but that took a

manifestation in the form of a
mobile app.

So we built a nutrition product
and we built a meditation

product, things that were both
core to the way we were both

living and we saw some white
space and an opportunity to have

some impact a positive impact,
I hope, across those two, two

dimensions nutrition and
meditation and Digital art.

Nfts are not that different.

You know, it really started for
both of us from a deep passion

for all the incredible
Creativity that was being

expressed by these incredible
artists in this space, and we

were both obsessed with
collecting and getting to know

artists and we were spending, he
and I all of our time in this

space in 2021, while still
working in in web 2, as our

full-time jobs.

And and then there was an
opportunity really to make it

our full-time job to show up
more Holy and more effectively

across two dimensions both for
collectors like ourselves and to

build a community of collectors
that we can nurture and think

long-term and and Upskill
together.

All of us could learn together.

And then also, you know, by
spending all of our time here,

better support the artists who
we were starting to develop

these relationships with.

These aren't real human,
interpersonal relationships with

not transactional relationships
.

So, you know, that was really
the, the impetus to go all the

way in and start proof and the
proof collective, and start to

do things like Grails, which was
Kevin's idea, and I've sort of

helped steward afterwards.

So, again, to circle all the
way back, I'm very much still

learning and relying on smart
people, developing my own

sensibilities of taste and
curation and relying on people

much smarter than I am.

Speaker 1: Let me add, I'm going
to challenge you a little bit

here.

Yeah, go for it.

Do you think that curators, who
are designated curators in the

fine art world or in the art
history world, don't you think

that that, because of what I
hear a lot of, is that I'm sure

they still have people that are
a lot smarter than them, that

they look up to and that they
learn from, and that they still

need to bounce ideas off, and
primarily as a filter?

So would it be fair to say that
Maybe it's like an early day,

because I often find myself not
wanting to take credit for

things that are in the
traditional art history world.

I'm like, well, it's not fully
me, but what if this is just a

different version of it?

What if it's like an early day
where novices but couldn't we

actually call it a curate?

I mean, couldn't we?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think your
point is well taken.

I just like to be.

You know, some people think you
know words like that, labels

like that, titles like that are
loaded, and so I have no problem

.

I have no ego about who I am
showing up as in that sense.

So I like to sort of try to
call that out, that I'm

cognizant of the many things I
do not know.

That's really what I'm trying
to get to is, you know, being

aware of the things I know less
about, and, by extension, we'll

learn and acquire certain forms
of knowledge over time.

But I think to your point, or an
aspect of your point.

The other side of that is I'm I
and we and you know many others

who are in this space, including
artists and collectors we are

less dogmatic and indoctrinated
in the way that things have

previously been done, and to me
that's fundamental to being part

of a nascent movement.

You know, some of that lack of
indoctrination allows us to

think more openly and freely and
in novel ways, and that's

exciting to me.

That, I think, drives us all
forward.

I'm not saying this is
something I'm doing.

Holy, this is all of us, in
different ways, thinking in new

ways and collectively.

That energy is building
something, I think, very special

.

That wouldn't be possible if we
were, all you know, reserved

and unwilling to take risks
because, you know, we didn't

feel we were ready and didn't
have enough knowledge and hadn't

gone to art history, you know.

So the other side of it is very
exciting and, I think,

fundamental to this, being a
movement that has impact over

the long term, totally dude, and
just to share a little bit of

my personal like this made me
think I was thinking about this

when you were sharing it.

Speaker 1: I mean, when I first
started the podcast solo back in

2021, that was like my whole.

That was like my whole thing.

I had, like the dialogue around
me quote unquote being ready

was really strong, but the
desire to be a part of something

new was stronger and it kind of
drug my insecurities through

the fire.

And if you look at some of my
earlier podcasts, it was really

me just not saying a whole lot.

It was me just really just
asking people that I thought

were smarter than me questions
on it in a live and not

necessarily live, but, you know,
on a media outlet and learning

in public.

And Kevin Rose Kevin Rose's
podcast, talk about white space,

was actually the first podcast,
the only podcast I saw, that

was doing something similar that
I wanted to do.

I'm like, if this is the only
podcast centered around art,

like holy shit, there is so much
room to grow here.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Like there's no, and
especially in the early 2021.

Speaker 1: days when people were
only talking about punks

mooning, apes mooning you know
world of women being dropped and

all these collectibles.

It was like, oh, let me just
quietly build this while

everyone's, you know, having fun
over here, and I'm, you know,

still having fun myself, but
recognizing the opportunity to,

like, do something, and Kevin
was a very big inspiration in

that, and especially in those
early days, you know doing that

you know what you know.

Speaker 2: What that brings up
for me is and maybe this is sort

of a through line through
through much of what we're

talking about is, you know,
kevin in in what Kevin as a

human, I think it's fair to say,
but in particular in those

podcasts around that period of
time, he was just deeply curious

.

Yeah, right, and so so he, you
know, he wanted to have people

on who could tell him and, by
extension, in audience space.

That was.

It was also curious about the
technology, about generative art

, about being an artist and
using blockchain in novel and

unique ways, and I think you
know, you and I and so many

others you know the space is a
hole in certain ways, but it's

about curiosity, yeah, and
through via curiosity, you

acquire new knowledge and you
listen to people outside of your

current remit of understanding
and circle of competence, yep,

and you expand that circle of
competence in so doing.

And so I love that anecdote
that his podcast was one of

those first ones you were
listening to and seeing.

Totally, it was yeah, it was.

Speaker 1: It was.

It was like the only one that I
saw, I mean outside of just

trading, and like at the time I
didn't have enough money to

really trade.

I didn't really.

I was like I was really poorly
managing my finances at the time

and so I just couldn't find an
authentic way to offer value and

it and.

But I wanted to be here, you
know, I just didn't know how to

participate, and that was that
was one of the biggest catalysts

to me, going like, fuck, like
he's the only one doing this.

There's got to be a lot of
other talented artists, you know

.

So, yeah, hats off to him for
that, because it was a.

That was really you know where
my roots were built, something

on the, on the through line of
generative art.

Here, though, something that
I've recently been curious about

.

You know, we have this, we have
this digital medium.

You know, the the art blocks
revolutionized the way

generative art was presented,
transacted, you know,

experienced, added a new layer,
and it really kind of had its

moment after, you know, decades
of just kind of being an art for

nerds, you know, and while it's
, it still is like I'm still a

complete nerd and I love it, but
it's.

It's a lot more respected is, I
guess, what I'm trying.

It brought a lot more respect
to the genre and the medium and

something that I, quite frankly,
didn't really understand,

especially in the early days,
and shout out to prohibition.

They were literally the reason
why I started getting into it,

because it was it was accessible
enough for me to afford to like

figure out my taste and what I
liked and what I didn't like.

But I'm rambling to get to a
point here around.

I recently bought the Demetri
Terniak LACMA Ringers LACMA

Edition output, and so the
physical representation of a

digital work is a topic that I
want to dive in on, because you

know, we, I still don't think
technology is at the point, at

least excessively outside of
Danvis, to where it's really

reasonable to buy a frame, and
so I think I saw a tweet of

yours, I can't remember when it
was around the display of the

display of generative art looks
better as a physical form or it

brings a new light to it.

So I'd love to kind of
understand, like, has your

thought process changed on that?

Have you?

Do you still believe that?

I'd love to kind of like dive
into that a little bit, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's such
, it's such an interesting topic

.

There's a bunch of different
dimensions of it that I think

are interesting to talk about.

I think let's start with, you
know, with the, with the piece

around onboarding new collectors
, and you talked about it.

Like you know, generative art
was was basically entirely

disregarded as a from a
collector standpoint for 50

years you know something to that
effect except by a very small

number of collectors, including
the spalters are one of the the

the longest standing and most
significant collectors of

physical digital art and
generative art, computer code

art, but otherwise, you know,
mostly disregarded until the

last couple years, but, to your
point, still today.

There are two primary hurdles
at least one is most collectors,

even, you know, 25 to 40 year
old online internet native

collectors who have disposable
income.

The notion of the following two
things is hard to rock one,

that a computer and that code
generated these outputs and that

they live as a JPEG is like
just sort of hard, a difficult

mental model for many.

And then to that this lives on
a blockchain and that you

transact with crypto is like
this other dimension that is

also hard to rock.

I say all of that to get to to
this point that I think physical

prints and physical objects are
an increasingly interesting and

necessary half step to onboard
those collectors, that

demographic I just described,
ultimately over time into wholly

digital, wholly NFT, generative
art.

But that going from zero to 100
is probably a fool's errand.

So to go to you know someone
who's buying physical art today

and ask them to buy the JPEG of
a generative output tomorrow, I

think it is too challenging.

And so using physicals really
as an onboarding mechanism and

bringing them into the broader
ecosystem in so doing, for at

least that reason, I think
physicals are incredibly

interesting as a medium and as a
method to really expand the

opportunity for all digital
artists not not saying all

digital artists should do that,
right, for those who desire.

I think it's.

It's quite interesting and wise
.

There are so many other layers
of this right, Bruno, there's,

like you know, is it one
physical print per token and do

those move around together?

Can they be unbundled?

If unbundled, what does that
mean to the token Right?

And it's value relative to the
value of, like maybe a one of

one signed physical that was
made available to that token

holder?

So you know there's, there's a
lot there, but I think

fundamentally something like
prohibition.

Let's.

Let's use that example.

You know, I think the work they
are doing to make generative art

for artists more accessible is
is so important Right, it's,

it's essential and such an
important opportunity and

problem to solve.

But finding collectors for that
work that's being produced

there, I think, is a more
challenging task.

In some ways you can, you can
solve the supply and

accessibility side of it, but
the the demand for that work, I

think is challenging, given the
number of collectors who care

about generative art in our
space today and are set up and

willing to transact with either
on an L2 and buy a JPEG.

So you know, you can imagine if
the output of the work that was

generated via prohibition was a
physical product and yes, it

was fundamentally a token, it
was backed by a token.

But for a novice collector who
doesn't transact in ETH and

doesn't buy JPEG, if they could
just go there and print a

beautiful physical, yeah, you
know, maybe that's an

opportunity to really expand the
addressable market.

For what again is under the hood
?

You know, an NFT generated with
our blocks engine, but the end

user in some cases maybe, is
abstracted away from that a

little bit and over time is
brought along for that journey

of this is what an NFT means.

Hey, this piece that you bought
that's hanging in your house

now as a physical is backed in
these different ways and was

generated in these interesting
ways.

There's a lot there that we
could unpack, but I think as an

onboarding mechanism at half
step I'm super bullish on

physicals.

I really like that.

Speaker 1: And I look back to my
own experience with it, like

there is something really nice
about looking at this without

having it attached to any
internet device.

It like it's a completely
standalone object, and I've

found myself just like sitting
here and looking at it, kind of

in a meditation of just like
understanding, not even just

just.

I don't even know what I'm
really looking at, but there are

certain points to it that I'm
drawn at and I think you make a

really good point, because I
didn't really.

I mean, you know, the way I
understood crypto in general was

through art.

That was like the only way I
understood it.

That's how I was onboarded into
the space, but I'm also

incredibly digitally native, and
so I think I think your point

of like a half it's it's, you
know it's.

I think it's easy, because most
of us here are zero to a

hundred type of people.

You know it's like when we find
something, it's like okay, cool

, like we, we.

It may take us a while to cross
the chasm, but like, once we

cross, there's no half step.

It's like it's a hundred
percent or it's zero percent,

and I think that's one of the
challenges that I've also seen

with other people is that most
other people aren't like that

and it's taken me a really long
time to understand that most

people and you could call it,
call it crazy, call it psychotic

, call it whatever, call it
passionate.

You know, probably a healthy
blend of all of it, you know,

but most people like it takes a
lot and it's a huge risk.

It's a.

It's a.

It's a new art form made with
the computer.

It's challenging the
relationships of what humans and

technology and the relationship
that we have with it.

Who's the artist Is the token,
the art Is the code.

The art Is like.

What role does all of that play
in the creation of and how do we

value that?

You know, I think we're also
seeing that.

I mean, I feel like the rest of
the world will still take a

while to grapple with that
challenge, but I think we're

grappling with it, with native
AI works as well.

How do people value AI?

Like?

What does that even mean?

You know, and it's there's so
many through lines of generative

art in AI.

It's like you know, but I think
that's really where what I've

also noticed and Kind of where
we're pushing the boundaries, or

where a lot of collectors are
still trying to understand, like

you know, outside of clear
silver.

You know how do you value AI,
so it's it's really interesting

that this is a I know I kind of
went off into another topic here

, but it's interesting as a
second step, as an intermediary,

like physicals or something
people understand, and I think

that you know, and I'm not sure
if you agree with, like, I think

that's been one of the biggest
focuses of a lot of people here

Is, at least from what I've
noticed in the bear market, is

trying to meet people where
they're at, and I think, yeah,

it's really like that's really
our job here.

Speaker 2: you know, because, as
much as I love it here and I

love the tight little community
that we have, especially kind of

walking through fire of
Literally everything that

happened at 2023, we need more
people, you know yeah, yeah,

yeah, I mean that that point
around AI is is Such an

interesting one, and I think
that the it would not surprise

me if that's one of the primary
topics of this year is you know,

with the proliferation of, of
AI and and the ease with which

Almost anyone can create
visually interesting Images and

outputs, how do you
differentiate and what does it

mean to be the an artist using
AI in a thoughtful way, and how

do you value that as a, as a
collector?

You know, the obvious dimension
to fall back on is Provenance,

and you know how early, what was
this artist Experimenting with

these tools and producing work
in these ways?

But I think that that is only,
you know, one of many dimensions

that ultimately becomes
interesting as we think about

words that not are wholly
generated by AI and in some

cases, but but incorporate
elements Of AI and those tools.

I think that will will very
much be central to this year in

terms of the collector behavior.

And, you know, I think it would
not surprise me if a few of

those well-known names that and
you mentioned Claire, you know,

rupé Renisto, there's there, you
know, there's a handful, I

think that are sort of obvious
In terms of their distinct

aesthetic and their provenance
of having done this word for

some period of time.

But I really think we're gonna
see.

Maybe it's.

Maybe it's 10.

Maybe it's 15.

Maybe it's 20 amazing emerging
artists who are incorporating AI

in really novel ways and using
the tools and combining tools in

very novel ways.

That Will have it would not
surprise me very big years,

totally.

Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're
already seeing it with Delta

sauce.

You know, like, yeah, like
Delta sauce has been, you know

we've, we've had our like.

We've like Bernardo shout out
to Bernardo.

Bernardo's actually put him is
the one who put Delta sauce on

all of our radars and Bernardo
collected a lot of his super

early work and to watch him kind
of have his moment and people

really figure out who he is on
brain drops.

That was a really cool moment
and he uses AI to create the

objects.

But the composition is there.

There, there's, it's a, it's a
blend between AI objects and

Photoshop.

You know to where he aligns as
he puts things together.

It's not a hundred percent.

You know unique and what Rupai
Rene so did incredible, like

it's.

You can't, you just you can't
deny you know.

Did you see this?

Speaker 2: Did you see this
controversy?

You know, maybe it was a month
ago, it was right after Miami

around that piece that was Was
it AI or was it, you know, hand

painted, you know, yeah, yeah
yeah, totally totally so.

So you know, I mean that will be
.

I think another major topic
this coming year will be

Electors wanting to better
understand the process behind

how these pieces were created.

At the moment, that that's
almost wholly abstracted away

from the end user.

They, they just consume the
yeah, the visual output of of

this process.

But you know, you can, I think
there's an opportunity and

someone will build it.

Maybe we will, who knows?

But to At the moment you can
verify who minted a piece of

work right, who, who, who was
the creator of the work, but you

cannot, with any Fidelity,
verify how the work was created

itself and so you can imagine
you know, maybe you know, if

some of these tools had web 3
Plugins you could.

Then you know the creators,
while it is connected to these

tools, and then, by extension,
you can very easily verify who

created and how.

And now all of that Information
is contained in the collection,

in the tokens, because you know
, I think that will be a big

topic this year is I see a
beautiful visual output.

I Want to know precisely the
process that went into creating

it, you know and you bring up.

Speaker 1: This is a great point
, and I think, to touch on

Claire a little bit, she talks
about taste is the new.

You know, tastes, the skill you
know, and it's like, I think,

with AI, at least in the
beginning, like because I think

you're talking about the next
step, I think you're talking

about step two.

I think because where we're at
with step one is, you know, in

order to understand a lot of
this new technology, you have to

play with it and to ask people
to actually play with it with

the amount of other things that
we're already doing, there's

only so much attention we can
spend.

You know, we only have, like we
wake up with a certain amount

of energy each day and we can
all.

It's a very finite resource and
To like put the onus a hundred

percent on collectors, we'll,
like we'll just start making AI

work.

Then you'll understand, kind of
how it's made and it's like,

while that is true I mean
there's this not false it's kind

of not really on.

The collectors shouldn't have
to like dive deep into AI

tooling and understand Very
similar to crypto as well.

Like we can't expect the
average person to go read the

Bitcoin white paper, like, we
can't like, it's just not gonna

happen, you know yeah yeah, and
it's the same with generative

art, right.

Speaker 2: I mean we don't ask
people to go under the hood,

although I can make the case
that we should do more of that.

You know, I think that's a
proof we should do more of of

that bring people under the hood
so they can understand why the

project a is maybe interesting
relative to project B, but

that's not a requirement for
generative art collectors to

understand how the script is
written and why it might be

interesting.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, for
someone like me though, I'm

interested in that, so I'm
naturally gonna do it, and so if

I have a natural interest, I'm
gonna do it.

But I think you're very much
right on the, on the broad scope

.

It's not really fair To ask
that, to demand that of

collectors, and I think that
having some tooling in the

creation process of how it's
made We'll really matter to some

people and that was a yeah, I
remember that controversy that

was.

That was quite the.

That was quite the hot topic.

And I think you know I go back
and forth between both camps.

You know, on one side, I really
feel like they should have

disclosed that part of it was
made with AI, but on the other

end, if the art makes you feel
good when you buy it, does it

really fucking matter?

You know, like, yeah, I mean I
was back to these.

Speaker 2: That goes back to
these dimensions we talked about

, like how much context do you
need or not?

And I think that you know
that's probably a sort of

collector by collector Calculus,
right, it's like for some

collectors it's holy about how a
piece makes them feel and for

others you know they want that
additional context.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've often,
you know, this is the challenge

that I feel like, I think
Especially us in positions that

we're at and a lot of people in
general like are facing.

It's like, how do you Because
art is so subjective, it's so

nuanced, there's like, even
going back to the, to the topic

on prints, you know, does that
if you, you know, with the

fedenzas, like that's the most
easy, as the easiest, you know,

target here is that if you have
the print, is the token still

worth it?

And how do you?

Some people it really matters
and some people it really

doesn't how do you build for
both?

Speaker 2: You know, you know,
you know what's funny is I know

a collector who he owned a
fedenza and he he redeemed the

print that came with that
fedenza and so he, he has this

beautiful, framed, I think,
signed fedenza print in his home

and then he sold the token.

And his life experience, I
would argue, is net positive

from those steps he just took,
because every day in his office

he gets to experience this
artwork, in the same way, maybe,

or in similar ways to the way
that you experience your

churnyak Print, that's, that's
in your space there.

So he gets to experience this
work of art every day, this

beautiful print, high quality
print, and he sold the token.

I'm sure, if I'm not wrong, he
sold the token, I'm sure, for,

for you know, a great return on
what he minted it for, of course

.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it is
tough.

It's tough and Because you can
also look at.

Like you know, rhinotic made a
tweet about this.

I just did this on one of our
spaces.

He's like what's really cool
about digital art is that I

don't the digital art movement,
especially with what we're

playing on, is I don't have to
go to a museum To to go

appreciate art, like the art
doesn't have to be in my wallet

or I don't have to go some place
.

There's no, there's no friction
to me Appreciating art of this

movement, it's all.

I can just log on to my
computer and whether it's in my

wallet or not, it really doesn't
matter.

Um, I thought that was a great
point that he brought up and it

kind of smashed the delusion of
like I have to own this to

appreciate it, you know.

But, um, I think your friend
made out Well, and, as long as

the person's happy, what if that
person who bought it Obviously

didn't give two shits about the
physical?

You know, like they just wanted
to be digitally native and

owning the token is more
important to them.

Yeah, someone interesting.

You know fellowship, you know
fellowship, trust.

They've done something.

It went very unnoticed and
under the radar, which is kind

of upsetting to me.

So I like one thing that they
did that was really interesting

and they did it with Rupi Rini
sto, they did it with a few and

they did with a few other
artists that worked with them is

they created what was called a
print shop and they created

their own print shop and they,
to people who had certain

collections, they would air drop
print token and if you were to,

basically what that did is that
you could allow the print token

one you could.

You could enable it or burn it
one time.

So what it allowed people to do
is, if they really didn't want

the physical, they could keep
the print token With the actual

NFT itself and you could
actually see whether it had been

redeemed or not.

Therefore, it was kind of a
step in the right direction to

easily you don't have to like,
go through the trust of like,

did you print it, did you not?

You know, did you very you know
it's all it's all bundled

together and you can see if it
was used or not, and I thought

that was kind of an interesting
way for people to collect both

at the same time and really kind
of help people in both camps

make.

You know, make that decision.

Speaker 2: But yeah, I love that
.

I'm just looking it up right
now.

So the fellowship print deeds.

Print deeds.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that, that's
super cool.

So the fellowship print deed is
an NFT that symbolizes your

exclusive right to acquire an
addition to print at a cost From

a specific artwork within a
collection released by

fellowship.

It can be stored, used to order
your print or be actively

traded on the secondary market.

That's cool.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can sell
the print deed itself.

You know, like on a secondary
market and keep the and keep the

token.

So if someone just wanted the
print but they didn't want the

NFT, you could sell them the the
print deed.

Speaker 2: Oh and, and they can
print your NFT, or they can

print, yeah, that they own, no
only the one that's assigned to

that print deed.

Speaker 1: So they did it very
limited to where everything that

was dropped it was only for
that specific artwork that it

was dropped to.

At least my understanding so
yeah, like if someone just

wanted to buy the physical off
of you, you could then literally

sell them a physical and not
sell them the digital.

You know, or you could sell,
yeah, you know, or it did you

get that school, so I don't know
but it went widely on notice

and I'm like how are people like
, dude, this is so cool, like

this is actually Innovative, you
know, like this is a, it's just

something real that we've been
really struggling with

Understanding how to navigate
for such a long time?

Um, you so, yeah, shout out
shout out, shout out, fellowship

on that.

Yeah, they're killing it.

Speaker 2: I love fellowship.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for sure,
I mean they've, uh, yeah, we

can get into it, like me.

I mean talk about AI, like they
are on both ends of the

intersection of AI and
photography, and I had actually

had Alejandro on season one, um,
to talk about a lot of this man

.

He's such a brilliant
photographer, brilliant mind,

brilliant, guy Um, and the way
they're doing is that they're

they're onboarding Traditional
kind of whales, like you know

Joel Meyer, whitz and Greg
recruits in and a lot of the you

know, and guy Bourdine, um, uh,
they're tokenizing a lot of the

works, but on the other side,
they're like, completely on both

extremes of the spectrum,
they're like devoting so much

resources and time and knowledge
into curating AI art and AI

photography.

Yeah, um, yeah, so it's
incredible, man, um, it's

amazing.

But, dude, we've kind of run
the gamut here.

One thing I really want to what?

Another topic I really want to
talk about is in your bio, uh,

and it's something I learned
about in Miami is you're a

former rice boy, um, so I, I got
.

I want to lighten up, maybe
talk about less about what.

Three here and where we go wind
it in there.

But what, like what is your
obsession with rice man?

Or like what, what is your
relationship?

Right, I should say yeah.

Speaker 2: So I told you that,
uh, my masters was, was focused

on political ecology, which is
the relationship between, uh, in

many cases, farmers and
government, uh ent entities and,

um, you know, when you're doing
a master's, you choose a very

specific, highly, highly focused
um area uh to to study.

And so, uh, I have always been
fascinated by food and farming

and um health food and um
medicinal mushrooms, all sorts

of things.

I lived in in Hawaii for six
months and was on a farm that

entire time and we were growing
25 varieties of bananas, and so

we had, you know, this diversity
of different foods that I was

fascinated by, and all around
this notion of um permaculture

and agro biodiversity, these two
schools of thought.

So, during my masters, um, my
very specific focus was on the

way that these very small holder
farmers, like you know, very,

very meager um livelihoods and
very challenging livelihoods,

the way that, in South India,
these farmers were using ancient

varieties of rice, of which
there are thousands, as a way to

sort of reassert their agency
and their sovereignty and,

fundamentally, sort of rebuild
their sense of self and self

respect, relative to the
subsidized forms of rice that

are typically cultivated in
those regions where the

government provides this rice at
a discount but then also

demands that, by extension, you
use chemical fertilizers on your

uh, on your farm, to cultivate
that rice.

And so there's this growing
faction of farmers in that

region, in South India and
elsewhere who are um taking up

seed, saving and sharing these
seeds amongst themselves and uh

doing so, as I said, sort of as
a way to reassert themselves and

um their sense of self uh in
that equation.

So that's the rice boy um
chapter.

I mean it was just to give a
little bit more color to that.

You know, we spent I think two
months in South India myself, a

translator and a driver, and my
colleague going into very remote

rural areas of South India and
talking to those farmers.

You know they'd bring us into
their, their very small homes

and always share tea, sometimes
food, together and learn about

their livelihoods, learn about
the challenges and drought is a

huge issue Um there's an
epidemic of farmer suicides

where there was at that time,
given how challenging their

livelihoods are.

So I mean that was a pretty
beautiful uh experience to get

to spend so much time with those
farmers in their homes and

learn about their lives and the
reason I said initially there's

a through line to the work that
I'm doing now is like one, yes,

those sort of power dynamics and
the way that sort of crypto

represents some of those or
stands for some of those same

same things, but also in terms
of just being a?

Um, a listener and being open
minded to.

You know, learn from others, and
that could be others like

yourself, boona and the Schiller
team hanging out in Miami.

That could be artists and
learning about what makes them

tick and sure, learning about
their challenges and their

creative process and doing so,
uh, with with very few value

judge judgments and just being
open minded.

Um, so that is the rice boy uh
chapter, and I have somewhere

back there, I have this
beautiful handmade gift from one

of the farmers we visited.

He creates from these ancient
varieties of rice, oh, no shit,

uh, kind of sculptures.

I'll send you a picture
afterwards, later, please, so

that that that follows me around
.

Speaker 1: I love that dude.

Uh no, and I think, honestly,
man, the way we kind of ended,

we ended this conversation right
where we started, so I think I

want to like tie a bow on it and
wrap it up here, uh, cause I

couldn't think of a better way
to end it on that note, um and

so I guess the the last bit here
.

First and foremost, man, just
thanks for your time.

Um, glad we were able to get
scheduled.

This has been a fun hour, uh,
you know.

And so I guess, as we wrap it
up, you know, would love to kind

of start looking into the
future a little bit.

You know, I know we talked about
some of the centralized themes

of some of the dialogues we're
going to be having this year,

but kind of more with you and
proof with what you can share.

Um, what is it that you're like
like, most looking forward to

in 2024?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.

I think 2024 for us, it um is
really about focus, um, and you

know, prioritizing quality Um
and that probably means, you

know, a a reasonable cadence of
releases with exceptional

artists, with thoughtful supply,
uh, for each of those releases.

You know we'll continue to do
our drill shows, for sure those

are, those are really important
and fundamental to to what we're

doing in the storytelling part
that we, that we talked about.

But you know, doing a number of
solo exhibitions and solo

releases with very much top tier
artists, that um that we've

worked with in the past in most
cases and um, and then doing

leaving enough space amongst
those things to experiment, and

you know we have some fun ideas,
both in terms of partnerships

and with with some artists who
have not done anything in this

space yet, uh, and it's
exploring things on ordinal,

like you know.

Leaving space to experiment and
and innovate, because you know,

as I look ahead to to next year
, the idea and the notion of

whole of only exclusively
selling uh and platforming JPEGs

is fine but not compelling and
doesn't get me out of out of bed

in the morning.

So, leaving enough space to
experiment and innovate, uh,

while still being focused.

Focus is the primary uh
objective for this year.

Uh, I think you know it's going
to be really exciting year ahead

.

I think so too, man.

Speaker 1: And I, you know, I, I
, as as much as I hated the bear

market, I think it was a lot
easier.

There was a, there was a level
of focus that we weren't

distracted by the next shiny
object.

Uh, you know.

So I think that's a perfect, uh
, I guess company, you could

call a resolution, uh, or
through a line or a topic, to

like it's, like it's it, because
it's it's hard, you know it's,

it's so hard with the shiny
objects that are, that are being

built here, um, and with all
the amazing artwork that's being

produced.

So, um, I think it's fantastic.

Man, uh, is there anywhere?

Like go ahead?

Speaker 2: No, I was just going
to say, uh, he, as we wrap, just

to to send some flowers back to
you guys and you, Boona, um,

this has been a lot of fun.

All of the work you guys are
doing is thoughtful and

intentional and and I know
you're sort of growing at a very

intentional pace and and being
uh very considered about who you

work with and how and uh and uh
, it's much needed and deeply

appreciated, man.

Speaker 1: Dude, and, and you
know what, everyone on our team,

including myself, is incredibly
, uh, challenged when it comes

to taking compliments, um, so I,
I very much appreciate that.

Man.

It really means a lot to see,
you know, cause a lot, of, a lot

of the stuff we don't really
say we do, we just do it and to

see someone kind of pick up on
the way we try to move or the

way we'd like to be seen, um, it
means a lot, man.

Uh, you're yeah.

So yeah, just yeah thank you.

Speaker 2: Um, you've got to get
, you've got.

You've got to get better at
taking compliments.

I know it's hard.

Speaker 1: That's going to be me
for 2024.

It's it's getting better at
accepting, accepting compliments

, uh, and, and I'm going to, I'm
going to steal yours, just

staying focused, because I have
a feeling there's going to be a

lot of uh, shiny distractions
this year.

So, um, but, dude, yeah, this
is great.

Is there anywhere where people
lastly want to give you a plug,

where people can follow you?

Uh, where do you people want?

Where do you want people to go
first?

Speaker 2: No, go follow Boona
instead.

Dude off man All right?

Speaker 1: Uh well, dude, thank
you so much, man.

Uh, Eli, this has been a treat,
and hang out for just a little

bit.

We'll let it finish uploading
and, uh, we'll call it a rat man

, but I hope you have a great
rest of your day, man.

Thanks, man, you too.

Thank you for listening to the
Schiller curated podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

As we close that today's
episode, don't forget to

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Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember, if

you're looking for it art is
everywhere and it's up to us to

appreciate and explore the
emotions it brings to our lives.

Until next time, this is Boona
Signing off.