Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the Shiller

Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Sophia Garcia, founder

of ArtX Code and is on the
board for Artblocks as well as

the non-profit organization
Code-Artorg.

In this episode, we dive into
Sophia's love for creative

coding, the birth of ArtX Code,
the importance of entry points

in an art collection, the impact
of art funds on the art market

and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests my own NFTs
discuss.

Now let's grab some coffee and
dive into this conversation with

Sophia.

All right, we are live GM.

Sophia, how are you?

Speaker 2: I'm great.

How are you doing?

Speaker 1: I'm doing good.

I think we chatted a little bit
earlier Having a nice fun day

in the excitement of redacted
coins on Solana.

Got a little work done in
addition to that.

Got a haircut Doing good.

Got the beard trimmed up.

After Miami it was looking a
little over horrendous so needed

to get that done.

But yeah, doing great.

Speaker 2: I'm in desperate need
of some TLC to my hair, but me

and my sisters were joking
because we were typically have

these blond-ish whatever.

We're in recession chic.

Right now.

We're all just like we've all
stopped doing our hair.

I'm dying our hair.

For the last two years or so we
all are a little bit more

prunet.

We're here for it.

We're totally here for it.

Speaker 1: Yes, yes, whatever
that means for you.

Now that we are almost
officially, maybe back, I feel

like a new hair color would be
something refreshing, would be

good.

Speaker 2: I'm coming back with
pink hair.

You'll see, you'll see.

Speaker 1: Let's go.

New York's only four months
away, so I expect to see it.

Really great to have you on.

I'm so happy that you said yes,
thank you, yeah, I primarily.

Most of the time I've
interviewed or the way I've done

this podcast in the beginning
was mostly artists, but

especially I've grown and I'm
full-time here I just really

appreciate the amount of people
who build the things for us to

play on.

I saw you.

I'm like no, correct me if I'm
wrong and I'm okay to learn in

public, but I think I first saw
you on the Sotheby's video with

Vera Mollner and that
collaboration with Martin.

Is that correct?

Speaker 2: Yes, that would make
sense.

That was a new approach for me
to be more on the openly talking

about all these different
things and being recorded doing

so.

And we're still in the last
year, so that totally makes

sense being your first
introduction to me and the

things that I'm interested in.

Speaker 1: Yes, and you were
interested in quite a bit, code

being the main one, though
Correct Absolutely.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So for almost 10 years now.

It's crazy.

Speaker 1: Okay, so let's start
there 10 years ago.

Obviously, I found this space
because I like the pictures that

are on the code.

That was the first thing.

It was really the first thing
for me to like.

Oh, now I have a place to spend
cryptocurrency.

I didn't understand it before.

Pictures were on the blockchain
.

So take me back.

What was your upset?

How did you get obsessed with
code?

I'm very curious about this.

Speaker 2: So my background I am
not a mathematician, I was not

an engineer in the slightest.

I was studying art history.

I was working at a gallery, a
contemporary Chinese art gallery

here in Miami.

My dad was always kind of like
you know, barking in the

background, like you should
learn to code, you know, that's

just what I'm like, okay, boomer
dad, like that's what you're

really hearing on your vlogs,
sure, sure, sure.

But there happened to be this.

It happened quite
serendipitously.

I was kind of realizing that
the art world as it was working

was not going to be sustainable
for me and and you know, being

able to support myself in the
ways that I wanted to and one of

our local colleges.

I got an email that they were
doing kind of this pilot program

to.

You know it was going to be a
free coding class.

It was actually based we were
going to go into a classroom

watch the online course of
intensive introduction to

computer science from Harvard.

This guy, david Maylin, teaches
it and then we were going to

have a professor in class like
answer our questions and we

would have TAs to help us with
our homework and things like

that.

And it was free.

So I was like you know what,
like let me just try this out,

why not?

And it was just kind of like
curious.

Got the email and I was like,
screw it, I'm going to do it,

apply for the interview.

They're like, yeah, come on in.

And I was like, okay, great.

So I started taking this class
and I just want to like set the

stage again.

I think the I did not take a
calculus class in college.

I did like a like math for
liberal arts which actually

ended up working out a lot
because a lot of it was logic.

So I step into this class and
they start seeing C, which is

the programming language that we
were learning.

I was like what the fuck is
this?

I was freaking out.

But I was like, okay, I'm
committed Again it was.

I was actually really lucky
that this wasn't a class for

credit, it was really just
something that I'm doing.

So you know, I wasn't sitting
here stressing like what if I

fail this test?

Or I was like I'm just going to
keep going at it.

And so, really quickly I once
it kind of started to hit just

how much just the fact that code
really is the fabric of our

modern life was.

It was massive, I think
beforehand, just being a

consumer of what code was
building, it was really hard for

me to understand or connect
with how it was built.

So let's say I was like on a
website and that website wasn't

working.

I was just like this stupid
website that doesn't work.

Why doesn't it work?

Or you know, going and seeing a
cool interactive installation

and being like, okay, that just
exists Cool.

It was really hard for me to
understand, and so it was just

this really big aha moment where
it was like, oh my God, someone

had to make that like so and
this idea of like code really

being this like human focused
endeavor, and that there were

people behind the scenes, and so
this thing that was kind of

just very abstract, all knowing,
became something where I was

appreciating people now more so
than technology.

And then, coming from my art
history background, I also

became like hyper obsessed this
idea, like, oh my God, you know,

I really, seeing it from this
macro level, like the computer

hasn't even been around for 100
years.

Everything that we're making
with it right now is important,

there is an importance to it,
and so, before actually getting

into the like, all of like
creative coding, I just became

obsessed with how have people
been working with the computer

to express themselves?

And so I had this like my own
personal project, like trying to

make a timeline of you know,
the first softwares that were

like, you know, like Photoshop,
and like the first computer to

make music and you know all
these different things.

And I'm really lucky, a really
dear friend of mine with the

Avondado, who happened to be a
TA in my class, heard me kind of

talking about all of this stuff
and he was like, hey, have you

heard of processing?

And I was like, what is
processing?

And I watched one tutorial and
I was.

I became a sicko, like I was
just, like I would spend every

single day, every single weekend
, just sitting there watching

tutorials from from Dan
Schiffman on YouTube and it was

just.

It was everything to me.

I was.

I was just so, so obsessed.

And after this course, I think
my project for you know, I had

all these really cool people in
my class are making all these

really cool like very
engineering type final projects

and mine was a website where I
just wrote, did the history of

computer generated art and I
call it like computer graphic or

something.

It was a school like timeline
sort of thing.

And you know, after that it was
kind of like Okay, what am I

going to do with this new
knowledge that I have?

And I started volunteering at
some of the local nonprofits

here in Miami, one of them being
Code Ella, which is actually

code a, yeah, which is more for
Latin girls in Little Havana.

It was an after school program,
but through there I started

also volunteering with Girls who
Code and I was actually I found

this post on my Instagram not
too long ago where I was posting

about this workshop that I was
going to do with Girls who Code

and it was talking about the
history of computer generated

art with these girls and it was
really special.

I got to talk to them about
their Mona.

I got to talk to them about you
know what it, how long the

computer has been around, how
artists have been working with

code to produce art, introduce
them to P five, and it was a

really cool experience and that
was, like my first time,

actually kind of like opening up
around that like specific niche

of like code based artwork.

And while I was there, the woman
who actually ran the club, amy

Renshaw, came up to me and was
like I want to talk to you

because I have been thinking
about starting this nonprofit

called Code Art and it would
really be focused on teaching

young girls how to make art with
code.

And I was like I'm in, like
whatever you need, I am

absolutely there.

So I quickly joined and helped
form that that kind of like

founding team as the director of
education and I just went crazy

setting up the curriculum and,
you know, just teaching,

teaching workshops.

I mean, it was their camp point
.

Again.

My friend, willie, also had a
learning center here in Miami.

It's no longer open anymore,
but it was called 01.

And it was kind of this after
school program kids were

learning about Minecraft and
servers.

And so he let me have to use
the space for free every Sunday

and teach my workshops there.

And I'm super grateful.

Even the parents were like what
are you teaching my daughter

that she's dragging me out of
bed on a Sunday to come learn

how to code?

And we just had the best time
teaching them how to make little

sub-portraits and then teaching
them how to animate and having

it react to audio and have them
really kind of build on this

week by week and it was just a
really special time and that

really kind of also helped me
cement my knowledge around all

of this and during all of this
craziness.

I also started an Instagram
account because it was like this

is my in-on account called
arnexcodeio, and it was like,

okay, what do I want to talk
about?

Let's talk about Arne Code,
cool.

And I just started finding
other people who were interested

in this.

I was just like who else?

Cause I know my friends,
especially my friends in Miami,

could care less about what I was
talking about.

Even to this day, there's like
inside joke, like I'll start

talking.

They all just are going beep
boop, beep, boop boop, like you

know, like you know, and it's
fine, you know, it's fine.

So I just said I was like, okay
, let me find some random people

online.

I'll be anonymous.

And I was anonymous for the
first like four or five years of

Arnexcode and I just started
finding people online and I was

just always looking through like
creative coding, hashtags, like

new media and kind of posting
tutorials and posting, and it

was just like my outlet.

It was just my creative outlet,
and so that's kind of how it

all got started, how I started
finding more artists and things

like that.

But that's kind of like the
early days of my obsession with

creative coding, which is kind
of like to me like get more into

front end and stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's kind
of the early days.

Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of
people just like exploding with

like excitement around the like
what, like how they first got

started into something.

I feel like I'm also that
weirdo, that like anytime I talk

about anything that I'm doing
here, they're just like cool.

Like I mean, is it like does
the number go up?

Like I'm like sometimes it also
goes down.

So, like what I usually just say
is like I just interview

artists and builders, you know,
and it's, I try to keep it like

super baseline, super, super
high level.

One thing that you mentioned
here that has me curious is you

started off anonymous and then
you recently switched to kind of

being more in the public
spotlight.

Why did you want to stay
anonymous in the first place?

Or, I guess, what was the
thought process?

And also, like, what led you to
like, want to like not be

anonymous anymore?

Speaker 2: So I was anonymous
because I did not want to have

anyone have any sort of flash
judgment around what I was

saying or about my thought
process.

I think I was sharing because I
was a woman, you know it was,

and I think it was something
that and I'm really happy that I

did do that because, you know,
in those early days I would get

messages all the time what's up,
bro?

Hey, dude, like I love what
you're doing, like you know all

this stuff and everyone just
assumed I was a guy and spoke to

me kind of as an equal and to
this I mean, I really don't have

any issues now in this space.

But I think it's also like I
proved what I was interested in.

My content came first.

Actually, the first time I ever
made a public appearance was in

New York in like 2019.

And I wouldn't say that was the
only time we came public, but

it was the first time that I
like went out and said I run

Artix Code, this.

These people had reached out to
me on Instagram.

They realized that I was in New
York and they were kind of like

hey, again, they thought I was
a guy and they were like we

wanted it, like we would love to
meet you, we'd love to talk

about some things that we're
thinking about, want to do,

maybe like a talk or something.

And I was like, okay, cool.

So I told them to meet me near
my office, because then at that

time I was working at JP Morgan
as an engineer there and I

remember going into this coffee
shop and I knew what they looked

like.

So I tapped on them and they
kind of just looked at me like

who's this?

I was like hi, I'm Sophia.

Like I run Artix Code.

And they were like what, like
you were the last person we were

expecting to show up here.

We were totally expecting a guy
.

And through that conversation
they were like, well, look, we

would love to do an event or a
talk with you know, women in new

media and all this stuff.

And I was like, well, I will do
this conversation with you guys

, but I don't want the content.

I would love for you guys to
rephrase the name of the talk.

I didn't want it to be women in
new media, I wanted it to just

be like faces of new whatever,
just like people in new media.

Who cares?

You know, and it was, and I'm
really happy that we did that,

because the amount of people who
showed up and then afterwards

being like it was so cool to
come to this event and then just

like see a panel of like badass
women Maya Mann was on that

panel with me I'm forgetting the
other girls Jess Knatzer, and

just like some really cool
artists, you know.

But it was just a yeah, it was
just an interesting point, but

it was kind of also like I love
that surprise of people just

like expecting that what I was
posting was just like very male

dominated, which is why I love
what I do at Code Art so much,

kind of breaking that boundary
of or that archetype of like

when you think about a developer
, you kind of assume this guy in

a hoodie coding by himself,
maybe a little anti-social, and

I know that I am the complete
opposite of that and I think it

may be a better developer for it
.

You know, my team said JPMorgan
, it was really great to be able

to be very open and vocal with
people and talk to them and work

with the marketers and work
with the designers and, you know

, have those soft skills to
match with the hard coding

skills.

Speaker 1: That's.

I mean I love that.

I really love that story, cause
, like a lot of times, people

associate anonymous with like
bad, like it's like.

It's like it's just a constant
talk about stereotypes, right,

like, while we're on this, like
while we're on this through line

, it's like, you know, the
narrative of what we do here is

like, well, cryptos just use for
money laundering and terrorism

and people that are anonymous
are like never good and they

just like love to you know, they
just they're just a bunch of

trolls and it's like, while none
of that is untrue, necessarily,

right, it's like not
necessarily untrue, but it's not

at the scale that, like most
people think there's a lot more

people that like do it for very
like, real reasons.

Like it's just like you don't
share your bank account publicly

, right, you know it's just like
there's just there's just yeah,

yeah, yeah, I mean, now we have
our wallets online.

That's a whole nother thing.

But yeah, right, but there, but
like I like how you, just you

clearly like there's a clear,
distinct advantage, a reason for

being anonymous.

Cause, like you know, no matter
how hard I think and I'm just

going to speak for myself here,
but I think for most of you we

have like we have natural biases
and like, sometimes it's

intentional, sometimes it's
completely, or sometimes it's

conscious, sometimes it's
completely subconscious and we

have no fucking clue how it got
there, you know.

And so naturally like yeah,
like I'm a gamer, you know, like

I, like, you know.

Speaker 2: I like.

Speaker 1: I'm not.

I will, I have to say, like
coding is a little bit new to me

, but it is still like
everything I like is highly male

dominated, and so it what being
anonymous stuff like I really

liked that.

You know you were able to kind
of like remove any biases, and

that's kind of what I try to
tell people is like, look like

there is there is a complete
removal of bias, and you just

look at what people can do, not
who they are, yeah, but it

sounds like also, you know,
there seems a point where it

does become like okay to like
not be anonymous anymore.

It kind of feels like there's
like a, there's like a give and

take.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think
once it came to a point where I

was working a lot more with
artists, I was showcasing their

work, I needed to be the one to
talk about it.

I it it left online.

You know, I think when
especially when, when, like the

crypto cycle kind of started,
like in 2021, in terms of like

getting more people around NFTs,
it was a lot easier for people

to be anonymous and stay honest
because no one was leaving the

house.

And I think now we're seeing
that completely shift, because

it's not really sustainable.

When we're going out to events,
like we are in Miami or in New

York and we're meeting people
and you know the the anonymity

side of things, it's just a lot
harder.

It's actually just like not
even that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, worth, it.

Speaker 2: It's beneficial kind
of.

At this point, you know it's
like I want people to know who I

am.

I want to have this
conversation, that you know that

I'm the mind behind this.

But I think once I started
showcasing work and started

being kind of more of the and
there are plenty of people who

still had no idea that I ran
Artics Code, but I was still,

like you know, being a little
bit more open I think it was

2021 when I made it a point to
be like okay, I need to tweet

more, I need to be on Twitter
and I need to tweet more and

people need to know that like
who, who I and that was really

scary for me.

I was terrified of Twitter
before because I was so scared

of trolls.

I thought that you know, I was
going to post on there and

that's instantly someone was
going to be like you're an idiot

.

Speaker 1: Like I was so scared
of all of that.

Speaker 2: But it actually
didn't happen.

So I was like, okay, cool, and
I think now I've been able to,

like you know, find my voice a
little bit more, talk and be

stern and speak my, speak my, my
piece when I need to.

You know, there are times where
I see something that makes me

angry or ticks me off and I feel
a lot more comfortable being

honest and open about it
publicly than I definitely did

just a few years ago.

Speaker 1: I mean, but also to
give yourself a little bit of

credit on top of being new, I
think 2021 was really hard to

like see through the mania like
of like what really made us mad?

Cause, like when financial is
like just way up into the right,

like I don't care how hard you
try, like you can't see the

bullshit.

Cause, like, looking back at
like Terrain, looking back at

FTX, looking back at all this,
it's like it was, it's so

obvious, you know, but like
completely blinded by 25% APY.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Like yeah, I mean it
was, it was.

It was really crazy Cause, like
I mean 2021, especially because

I mean, for context, in 2019
and 2020, I was selling works

from these artists for like a
couple of hundred dollars to max

like two that, like I think I
was.

I sold works from like Tyler
and Dimitri and Helena and

Manolo, gambo and Aon and you
know these are the no Lloyd, you

know, definitely all like under
2,500 Mac, like you know,

median price probably being like
$700, you know, and to see that

happen then to enter 2021 and
see the prices just explode, I

mean I got scared, I freaked out
and I was like what's going on?

Like we just went from like I
remember the first time someone

gave me their credit card to buy
a work of Dimitri for $750 and

I was looking at my business
part at the time Substantius,

who now does digital art at
Christie's, looking at him, and

I was like they gave me the.

They're gonna do it.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God, oh my God
, Like they are actually they're

going to send $750 on this
artwork.

Speaker 2: I'm freaking out and
you know it was.

It was amazing.

And then just you know, two
years later, to see what if his

work sell at Sotheby's for $1.5
million was absolutely wild to

me.

Like I remember the first time
I acquired a work from Dimitri

and we met at a coffee shop
because I was like I don't know

this guy, like let me just meet
him at this coffee shop, and we

ended up talking for hours,
being like man, people should

know more about generative art.

Like what are we gonna do to?

Like, you know, we should do
meetups or we should do whatever

it may be.

You know it's a we need to talk
about this more.

And just again, in under two
years, to see that just that

conversation, the amount of
people who were into it just

explode, was, I mean, very
inspiring.

But also like holy shit, what's
happening?

Like I thought that we had like
10 years, 15 more years of, you

know, beating the NFT drum.

I actually just posted on
Twitter like stupid, from this

interview that I did in 2020,
where you know I, they asked me

about you know, like digital art
and stuff, and it was, I was

just like you know, I just
really think that we'll see a

time where people have digital
art collections and you know, if

you've never heard the term
non-fungible token, like check

it out, like I think it's really
cool.

But if you would have told me
that six months after that, the

people sale was gonna happen and
everyone and their mother knew

what an NFT was because of you
know it was, it was, it was just

wild, yeah, yeah, yeah, just
craziness all around.

Speaker 1: It was.

I mean, there's so much to like
.

Thank you for like sharing,
thank you for sharing all of

that Cause like it sounds like I
mean and there's a couple of

questions I have but just to, I
was, I was the class of 2021, I

was onboarded through people.

You know, like that was, that
was me.

That was when I first
discovered that, like what a

left click owner was over a
right click saver.

That was like when I made that.

I'm like oh, that's kind of
dope, like that's really cool.

Speaker 2: I like that, I like
that.

Speaker 1: Like I don't know why
this feels good, but like it

feels good, and so that was like
my main like thing for coming

here was like I don't know what
this means, but like it's pretty

dope, yeah and yeah.

So that's you know, and then
the rest is history.

But I think that one of the
questions that I had here was

like of course, we had this
parabolic nature of of just I,

you know, at home, stemy check
school or you know, just

absolutely not money being
transacted, like how, now that

the dust has like kind of
settled, you know how did, how

do you like how do you think
about RTX code right now?

Like, because I'm sure, like
that changed the trajectory of

RTX code in a really big way, oh
yeah, yeah.

So I would love to kind of know
, like today, like maybe, like

how did you think of it then and
how do you think of it now?

And like, how do you think of
the future?

However, you want to like
answer.

I know I just asked three
different questions.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean no, no,
no.

I mean I think that a big
foundation of like what I, of my

interest and what I've been
into, is accepting that not

everyone's going to get it,
accepting that it was going to

take time, and there's like a
certain patience that I have

with all of it, just like
acknowledging like, oh okay,

this price might be like this
right now.

Let's see, you know, I think
like 10 year horizons, 20 year

horizons, not next week and so
in those early days it was like,

okay, what can I do on the
ground to just talk to people

about gendered of art.

So I was participating in
different fairs, I was putting

the artwork up and I felt like
those in-person events were

really important because I was
able to meet people where they

were at and talk to them about
why I thought code was, you know

, a very important medium for us
to talk about in the state of

the arts At that time.

Because I had a full-time job.

You know I wasn't representing
artists in like the official

capacity that we are now, but
more, you know, I see what

you're doing, I want to support
you.

Come to me when you have any
questions.

You know it was really like
project by project basis, and

then they were free to do what
they wanted all the time, and so

I.

When 2021 hit.

That was a really big that was
just a big moment.

I was still JP Morgan by that
moment.

I had moved over to their
blockchain team.

I was a technical design
strategist for them and their

NFT subject matter expert and
helping them think about how

they might be able to use NFTs
within their financial tooling

offering their services, their
offerings, working with the

designers and the developers to
make sure what was happening

actually made sense.

I had kind of like practical
experience with it, which is a

funny tidbit.

When I started selling digital
art, I did file all my paperwork

at JP Morgan, being like, hey,
I sell digital art and they were

like, okay, cool, we don't care
, they, let me do it.

It was totally fine, I think.

A few years later, it was kind
of funny to see like you guys,

let me do this.

I was not doing anything wrong,
I was compliant with everything

.

But in any case, during that
time again 2021, and that sale

at Sotheby's I was working a lot
with art blocks.

I joined their curation board.

I remember the ringer sale
happening and being like, who

the hell are all these people
buying generative art?

Just realizing like, okay, if
there's any moment to leave and

just go for it.

Now's the time I decided to
leave JP Morgan the summer of

2021, with really this big
emphasis on wanting to put on a

massive digital art show for Art
Basel in 2020.

That was something that I
really took as like this is what

I need to do, because I was so
set up with just seeing.

It was really exciting to see
all these people come in and

love generative art, but it was
also equally frustrating to see

them not treat it with the same
respect and care that I had for

it.

So I was like, okay, if I see
one more artwork in a screen

with black bars or just like
with wires everywhere, I'm gonna

lose my mind.

I was like.

I'm gonna lose my shit.

I'm really lucky, especially
given the amount of money that

was in the ecosystem.

I was able to raise close to a
million dollars to put on just a

blowout exhibition and that was
really important to me.

It's still one of the proudest
moments of my life.

I think I was burnt out for like
a year or so after that, but it

was absolutely worth it and
kind of really showing people

what it looks like to showcase
this work with like attention to

detail and talking with the
artists and showing the many

ways in which it can manifest.

So it was called the digital in
Miami Beach and I swear I'm

getting to your question, the
answer to your question.

But I feel like this is all
kind of part of the story and

this idea that, like Art Expo
has kind of just been like my

creative outlet and it's turned
into.

It's had many lives and so in
2021, that's really what it was

Really focused on doing this
exhibition, working with artists

, selling this artwork, and so
when 2022 came around, the dust

had settled, the show was over
and it was like, okay, who am I?

What is?

Speaker 1: Art Expo.

Speaker 2: And you know it was
an interesting point.

So I started doing a lot of
advisory work.

To be honest, I was brokering a
lot of secondary sales.

I was working with different
family offices.

I was advising for Artblocks.

I was kind of the sit-in until
Jordan Cantor came in.

So I was doing a lot of outside
, of being on the curation board

.

I was on the selection
committee so seeing all the

works that were coming in to
Artblocks, kind of doing

mentorships and all this stuff
with artists, which was really

fun and then but it was kind of
still like amorphous.

There was no structure like
what is Art Expo?

You know?

and that summer I went to London
for Brite moments and I was

really lucky to stay with sorry,
I'm sitting outside, I don't

know if you hear that saying
that just got really close by.

Okay, so I was in London and I
happened to be staying with my

best friend, christina, and her
husband, tony Marinera.

And Tony Marinera was a dear
friend of mine and I had

actually taught him about or
kind of explained generated art

to him a few years ago.

So he had already acquired
works from Tyler and all these

people and so he was really into
it.

And while I was there he got an
email from I don't know if it

was Martin or Lars a DM being
like hey, man, like you do such

a good job showcasing, talking
about my work, would you be open

to representing me?

And he looked at me and he's
like yo, I just got this DM.

This artist asked to remember.

Then we were like man, that's
super cool, you should totally

consider it I know you're not
really happy as your job as an

attorney doing like bombs and
all this stuff in big law Like

you should totally consider it.

And he was like yeah, yeah,
yeah.

And then the next day another
artist reached out to him and I

think it was Lars.

This time it was Martin and Lars
, basically both reached out to

him being like hey, and after
the second time he was like yo,

and I was like yo, okay, and it
was like should we do this under

Artics Code?

And that was the start of this
new iteration of Artics Code and

really considering what can I
do that is gonna best serve our

community and our artists that I
love and adore and I had been

working with anyway At this time
I had already been working with

IH Shells kind of unofficially,
but for basically after her,

after that crazy blowout like
two point whatever, million

sales, she was kind of like lost
and she's, you know, a fellow

Athena like generative artist.

I was like yo, whatever you
need, like I am here to help you

, so I would go to.

So I was helping her out with
all of her sales pretty much

right after that.

So it wasn't crazy to be like
we should start representing

these artists and make it
official.

And luckily now I had my
attorney with me, joni, so he

could sign like dressing up
contracts and things like that,

and so that really was the start
of the artist code that we see

today.

We now have eight artists on our
roster actually soon to be nine

if you want some alpha.

We just signed Echo 33.

We will be announcing that in
January.

So really excited, so excited
to be working with him.

So we have nine artists right
now and really our job here is

to support them, support their
career and really do what we do

best, which is like have it's
twofold really, because there's

the business side of it thinking
about their strategy, thinking

about their releases, thinking
about their pricing, the

relationships that we have with
collectors but there's also the

side of the art and something
that I think what I love about

working with Tony is that he
also has amazing taste, and so

we can sit there and have
critiques with these artists and

kind of do this like curatorial
conversations with them.

Where it's we're doing studio
visits, we're looking at their

work, and it's not just hey,
like you know, obviously you

artists have a timing to do
whatever they want, but it's not

just hey, what do you guys
wanna put out?

It's, you know, let's actually
look at this together and see

what we can pull out from here.

What actually do we think that
there's room for growth?

Where do we think that this,
actually, you can push the

boundaries of what you're
building on right now, and

that's something that I think
really is like a core

differentiator between artists,
code and others, because we've

been doing this for so long.

I mean myself especially.

You know one of like a really
fun anecdote that I was just

like really happy about.

I remember working with Divitri
on some prints that he was

doing and it just wasn't coming
out right, like the print just

was.

There was something about the
print that was just not not

working as it should, and I
remember going to his studio and

sitting there and debugging
with him.

You know what I mean.

Like that is something that I'm
you know it was it's fun to be

able to sit down with these
artists, not only appreciate the

visual art that's coming,
that's that they're producing,

but also being able to like
speak their same language and

understand how it is that
they're building what they're

building.

And even if I don't understand
how cause everyone has their own

different, like that I can I
can sit there and read through

it and figure it out.

So you know it's we're in this
really special moment now that

we basically get to support
these artists again think

through this like business side
but also really push them on

their artistic endeavors and
find really cool opportunities

for them, and especially now
where generative art does not

need any more.

You know marketing people
understand like generative art

as a movement is here, but now
it's actually kind of Fending

off all the different
opportunities that come your way

, because artists went from
never having any work to now

being inundated with All these
different people and they're in

their DMs and you have no idea
who's legit, who's not.

And that's where we kind of
come into play, where it's like

Okay, like, let's take a look at
this, like, what, like is this

benefit?

Do they need you more than you
need them?

You know, sort of thing, yeah,
and that's been a lot of the

case everyone trying to start a
new generative art platform or

this and that, and so you know
we're really just trying to

think long term Support artists.

We love experimenting too.

So it's not just.

You know, we're not very rigid
in our ways.

We always have to be this way,
but it's like you know, hey,

maybe you do this because it's a
fun experiment, let's test it

out.

We're not.

We're not above that in the
slightest.

I think that's really fun and I
and I love the different range

of artists that we work with
because of all the different

Points they are in their careers
.

And you know I'm not someone
who like, why do you like to

think of art?

Excode is kind of this like
elegant, kind of like luxury

corner of all of this.

That's always kind of been like
a guiding light for me when it

comes to thinking about
generative art and especially

digital art on the internet and
things like that.

You know, I don't think that
accessible, like accessibility,

is something that needs to be a
compromise.

I love having different price
points.

I think I'm doing my job when
collectors can come in at price

points that make sense for them
and be able to grow with the

artist you know I think.

For me it was like devastating
once I got priced out of being

able to collect, you know, yeah,
I was work.

Speaker 1: I think it was right
yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, pretty
much, yeah, all of it.

You know it was.

It was beforehand.

I used to be like oh, this is
three hundred dollars, can I pay

you a hundred dollars?

I'm gonna pay check and a
hundred, and it was fine because

there's no one else.

That's, that's how.

I learned you know yeah, yeah,
yeah and so I really do

understand this idea of or I
understand, I resonate with the

idea that it is Not everything
has to sell for a million

dollars.

It's just not reasonable and I
don't think people realize that

this is actually one of the
first times in history that we

have artists actually making a
living off their artwork.

So, and at this scale?

Yeah, at this scale, because
it's it's.

It's one thing to be, you know,
in the traditional art world

and things like that, but we
have artists who have zero

representation selling artwork
between like five to five

thousand dollars.

I like five hundred to five
thousand dollars, like that is a

massive win, and I think people
get get Confused with just like

the numbers that get thrown
around all the time and feel

like maybe they're not doing
enough and all these things, but

like wow, like we are so lucky
to be at this moment, and I just

so.

For me, it's always like,
alright, everyone, calm, calm

down, calm down, we have time.

Like there is a there's.

We still have a debt.

Like you know, I want these
artists to be making work and

selling their work for decades
to come, and so there needs to

be a reasonable growth
trajectory from there, given we

live in a now, this moment,
where we have a lot of different

hype cycles, we have people
that fomo into things, and but

my hope for better, for worse,
is that the, the frost that we

had in 2021.

I would actually really not like
to see that at that at that

rate again, because it doesn't
seem sustainable to me.

That's my own personal opinion.

Roast me if you want, but you
know, I would love to see

artists like just have steady
growth in their career In a way

that makes sense, that we could
actually have people come in and

have new collectors come in,
because I remember, you know,

having conversations with people
and being like, oh yeah, well,

the price for this artwork is,
you know, let's say, seven

hundred and fifty thousand
dollars, and they're like how

long is this art has been making
artwork for?

You know?

How long, you know, and these
are very valid questions like

these are because it's it's not
enough.

I can love the artwork so much,
but to put that much money, a

hundred thousand dollars, it's a
lot of money, you know, and

Even 10 to the thousand dollars,
a lot of money in this economy.

Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: So you know when I
think all this needs to be to

step back and remember that a
lot of these artists were

hobbyists for a really long time
and there's nothing wrong with

that, but also, like it hasn't
even been like a full five years

for a lot of artists who have
been minting on on online and

Some of these price points just
don't make sense if we are

actually interested in getting
in new collectors, especially

from the, like, traditional art
side or for wherever you know,

just new collectors in general,
because I think, I think

generative art has a really
strong story, has a strong

history.

People are acknowledging that,
acknowledging it, but that entry

point is very important and so
I'm very cognizant of having

yeah finding that balance
between entry points because I

want collectors to feel to have
a good experience when they

collect an art it like from
Artics code, I want them to like

.

If I ever advise a collector, I
want them to come back and be

like that was the best decision
I ever made.

Thank you so much, because it's
not looking for a quick flip.

They're looking at this, you
know and and you can ask a few

that have worked with me they're
like okay, like the other day I

had a culture horn yeah, this
is like a really good, yeah, I

was like very, very happy about
it.

He did it.

I had advised that he he
acquired a work from an artist

that I didn't even represent.

Um, actually it was echo.

I didn't even echo 33.

I wasn't even representing echo
at the time.

It was the first time you put
something up on on Super rare

and I send it to a few
collectors being like, hey, like

this price point is amazing.

This artist is super talented,
like you should probably collect

this.

It makes a lot of sense for
what you're doing.

And they had passed on it and
then ended up becoming obsessed

with all their work and buying
Ten times more.

Their pieces were a lot more
expensive than they probably

would have if they would have
just bought the first one.

Like that is the last time I
don't listen to your, to your

advice, because you know I that
that to me, makes me happy

finding artists that Again have
those price points that make

sense for certain collectors
that they can come in, support

them and grow with them.

Speaker 1: Hmm, you have there,
there's like there's it, it's,

it's such a, it's such a
blessing and, chris, because

like there's so much that
there's so many different like

rabbit holes that we could like
dive down and you're like choose

one, and I really don't like
that.

So thank you At the same time,
but there there's so much to

build on there, because I've had
constant conversations.

One of my best friends in the
space Her name is post-work, she

goes by her name is Natasha.

She collaged art.

I've often talked because she
was established before she came

in here and we've talked about
this.

Just like ridiculous trajectory
that 2021 like provided and like

how honestly unrealistic
expectations were Totally and

even during part of the one of
the most, at least personally,

one of the most painful parts of
the bear market was like

Watching both artists you know,
primarily artists, but also

collectors come to terms.

I'm like wow, this was Maybe a
little brunt blown out of

proportion, right, like like
this was like Watching artists

that sell sold their art art for
five to ten, eighth, can barely

sell it for point two or point
three.

It's like ouch, you know what I
mean.

Like mm-hmm, that fucking sucks
, you know.

And like yeah, I think it
really like as much good as it's

done for people.

I think with any movement, you
know, regardless these hype

cycles, you're gonna see people
that win, that do really well,

but then you're gonna see people
that like just get completely

shot in the foot.

Speaker 2: You know um yeah, I
mean I've been really grateful

for this year.

I think you know it is tough To
see the price points change,

but I think it's also been
amazing to let the market

recalibrate itself especially.

On these artworks and being
able to tell artists like look

like what happened in 2021 is a
bit of an anomaly, like you

cannot compare yourself to,
because artists come in at

different times, you know, and
it's like you are not and just

kind of beating that drum like
you are not a failure because

your work isn't selling for 100
E's, like it's just not.

Speaker 1: Ridiculous, it's just
doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2: You know, and I think
you know if Want to get

controversial too, it's kind of
you know this, the understanding

like a lot of the, the
Different parties that are

propping up these Given.

We do have individual
collectors, but propping up

these prices it's not just
individual collectors, we also

have the funds that have come in
and Acquired a lot of different

work and I've worked with, but
though I do have, I have, you

know, my own internal tensions
and battles with Fonds as

collectors because they're, I
think, historically.

If we look at art funds, they
really haven't worked outside, I

mean in the traditional sense
like art from, have existed

before web 3, and None of them
have really been all that crazy

successful.

I think we're in a different
moment.

Now there's a lot of different
tooling that like they can use

around and like organizations of
the, of the collections and

things like that.

Well, I know a few of them are
experimenting on, but you know

we're gonna come to a point
where you know, in the five

years or whatever it may be,
like these funds who bought

their work For a certain amount
of money, are gonna be looking

for someone to buy it more than
they bought it for, and who is

that buyer gonna be?

Is it gonna be another fund?

Are we playing hot potato with
funds?

Are we actually trying to bring
in Collectors who can do that?

We do have collectors that can
buy at these price points, but

not at the same capacity.

Speaker 1: You have people
pulling.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like, not
like I mean that's where dows

come into play also.

Which I think is a really
interesting where we have pools,

you know, this idea of a shared
treasury amongst multiple

parties, kind of sharing this,
this investment, and that makes

a lot more sense because no one
has to hold it in their house

and things like that.

They have their shared wallets.

But you know it's.

It is really interesting to see
and I am really curious to see

how that plays out.

But, yeah, I mean, I, I for me,
I love finding these works and

actually having them go home to
collectors who love the work,

who really might not want to
sell it for maybe ever, but want

to put it in their will, give
it to the kids.

You know, like it doesn't
always like.

I have a product that I released
with an artist, zach Bogd Torv,

I think in 2020, maybe it was
2021, I'm not sure, but it's

called Sea Glass.

I'm really proud of that
project because it's only, it's

only changed hands once.

Only one piece from the
collection has been listed and

sold and there's something
really beautiful about that to

me that you know, after one year
, it only changed hands once and

it went to the funny guys,
which to me, is like great

because you know they're they're
big generative art collectors.

And speaking of the funny guys,
I just need to give a huge

shout out to them because it was
the first time I ever went out

of my way to go out to a
collector and mess with them and

be like I don't know who you
are, but you have amazing taste.

Like artists that I am reaching
out to to acquire works and

they're like, oh well, you know
we're ready, like doing a

commission for the funny guys,
and I was like who the hell is

this guy?

Like, who is this person?

So I have nothing but Rizal
Khadab.

They have the best taste and
I'm just really good at what

they do.

Speaker 1: I love that yeah.

I love that.

This is I mean, and I'm happy
we're like talking about like

real things because, like I've
off you know, like whether it's

a hot take or controversial,
like I, I kind of like I'm like

him over hot takes because it's
just like.

It just means we're being
honest.

You know what I mean.

It's just where like we're
saying like what's not being

said and I haven't really
thought about it at that scale.

When it comes to, like, when it
comes to funds buying up

artists work, like it just
doesn't, because, like, if I

think about, if I were to start
a fund, like just today, the

primary objective would be like
obviously we need to drive

revenue somehow.

Like I would look at it like a
business, you know, and it just

doesn't seem incredibly
sustainable.

Like it feels good, like it
buys a lot of social cloud, like

I feel like here's a rabbit
hole, yeah.

Here's a rabbit hole.

It's like the intersection of
like art and social media, where

it's like, okay, you know, I
find myself at constant odds of

like my social media incentive
to tweet something, sometimes

maybe for the wrong reasons.

Well, like it's, sometimes it
becomes really strong and it's

like I had to check myself and
I'm like why am I tweeting this?

Yeah, why am I saying?

Speaker 2: Well, like the, the
funds have become a core part of

our ecosystem and they actually
create, I would say, positive

signals for the everyday
collector, for better or for

worse.

I mean, I'll never forget when
BVD came in, when he was still

working with a Starry Night
Capital, and bought one of the

dino pals for like a hundred ETH
or something like that.

Like, I mean the floor was maybe
three ETH at the time and like

that just created of everyone
just flooding over, trying and

like the market activity went
crazy and everyone was pumping

and it was just nuts.

And we see that time and again
where it's like, oh, a fund came

in, they bought this for that
much, like everyone's

celebrating, like look at what
they just did with all this

money that they've raised.

And I'm not saying that they're
a net negative, and I know that

there are a lot of people who
are very passionate about what

they're collecting and it's not
at all to bash them in the

slightest.

It's just looking at, like the
realities of the situation where

, I mean, we have it too with
independent collectors who are

planning on like exiting at some
point.

But that is the whole name of
the game.

With a fund, you are giving me
money with the intention of

making more money and, at this
point, using art as the vehicle.

And I definitely loosened up on
the idea of selling artwork.

I think beforehand I was like
I'm never selling.

I was very furious about it
because I saw how it affected

artists.

I saw them really freak out
with the ways they felt like

their work was just being tossed
around like a ball.

And it really blessed them
because they cared deeply about

the work that they're producing.

It's not just an investment
vehicle for them.

This is a part of their being.

It is a part of their soul,
their creativity, and they're

putting it out there.

It's a very vulnerable
situation to be putting and then

to see it kind of just kicked
around is tough.

So that is a conversation that
I've had with a lot of different

artists and kind of being like
what are your thoughts on

secondary and art and people
selling it?

And so since then, through
those conversations, I've opened

up more.

I've sold pieces when I needed
the liquidity and I don't feel

guilty about it.

There's nothing wrong with
taking some money home, of

course not.

And that's where royalty is
also coming to play and we can

get into a whole meatball.

A whole thing about royalties,
but I will not go there right

now.

That's where they really came
into play, where it's like no,

we're benefiting also from you,
like selling the artwork, and so

if you're telling it to someone
who's happy, then we're all

happy.

But again, just like to the
point, just the idea that you're

buying my art really to sell it
, and so what are the

ramifications of that?

What are the implications?

We'll see, we will see, we will
.

Speaker 1: We will see.

Speaker 2: We will see.

Speaker 1: I want to.

There was something that has
still stuck with me ever since

you were talking about you
bringing on, like you kind of

starting this new chapter of
like representing artists full

time.

So one thing that's always been
like very nebulous to me is,

like the life cycle of clients
that you bring on.

Okay, it's like.

So like, number one, you know
what is like with all the

artists that you represent.

The success looked the same.

And number two, like, how, like
, is there a point where like

and this is just complete, like,
I just have no fucking clue

about any of this?

So like, is there a general
life cycle for, like artist

management where then the
artists can maybe be on their

own?

Or is this kind of like a
lifetime type of deal, you know

like, where they just like don't
want to do anymore?

So, like, I'm just like, really
, curious.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.

Yeah, I mean, well, let's,
let's see about that too.

No, I think you know.

The idea is that we will be
with them long term, I think,

but every artist has different
needs.

Every artist is distinctively
unique in their own way.

There are some artists that I'm
sure would like.

I mean we have our own
benchmarks, a lot of them being

more like soft benchmarks, in
the sense that they're not like

data driven, like you need to
make this much in sales.

Speaker 1: Right, Right Sort of
thing.

Speaker 2: It's like how are we
working together?

Do we feel good about this?

Are you, are we all like you
know?

Are you putting in the same
amount of effort as we're

putting in?

Are you taking the
opportunities that we're?

Speaker 1: providing.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we're providing
that, we're that, we're

fielding and really running with
them and doing it to the best

of your ability.

You know what I mean, because,
at the end of the day, this is a

business where all we're, all
the artists themselves are their

own business days.

They are all their own
entrepreneurs.

We are here to support them.

But the partnership needs to
make sense, and so I think

that's how we look at it.

We don't have anyone sign into
contracts where, like, you need

to work with us for five years
and it's all at will, and that

goes both ways.

So, if there ever comes a point
where maybe we're not seeing eye

to eye or maybe whatever it may
be, yeah, maybe the

relationship might end, but I
think that they would always be

kind of more like business
focused versus you know, like

that side of things.

But I mean, my goal is that we
are working with our artists for

a very long time and we're all
happy.

I mean, it seems like we're all
pretty happy, so I'm not too

upset about that.

You know, that's one side of it
.

You know, like what does that
life cycle look like?

We'll see.

But you know I've there are
artists that I've worked with

and then they go off on their
own, or maybe they want more

support that we can't provide
for them or at least at that

time I couldn't provide for them
, and things like that, and

that's totally fine.

I mean, remember, right now
it's just Tony and I really

leading the charge with these
artists.

We have some people that are
helping us out with content and

with a business strategy, but
the day to day, like my WhatsApp

, is crazy.

You know that we have we, we
like it's a lot.

So you know that's that's
another side.

But when it comes to thinking
about what success looks like

for the artists.

It's also kind of tailored to
each artist and what their goals

are, but there are some
reoccurring themes that I think

we're seeing.

So this idea of having
institutional support from

public, like from the public
sector, being museums, I think

the museums having that sort of
relationships with them has been

really awesome.

Getting our artists finding that
balance between working with

our Web3 community which is what
made these artists successful

in the first place while also
mending in the storytelling

aspect of working with
institutions like museums or

different, like public galleries
or foundations, and allowing

them to showcase the or maybe
not having to really put so much

pressure on selling the artwork
and seeing you know what.

What is the diversity of our
collector base look like?

What does you know?

Working with seasoned
collectors who who genuinely

care about the work that is
something that we also really

think about.

There was a really cool
experiment that we did earlier

this year with Lars Wander and
his collectors that we and this

was post kind of controversy
around the no royalty

marketplaces, and so we went out
of our way, did some, some

researching and found all of his
collectors that honored his

royalties and we reached out to
all of them and we did a private

sale amongst all of those
collectors, kind of positive

reinforcement.

We see that you guys are good
collectors, we see how you

manage your collections and we
want to kind of give you the

opportunity to acquire these
pieces that we think are super

cool.

And it was a really cool
experience.

And, you know, I would love to
be able to kind of do that again

, because I really do think of
kind of the three pillars of our

clientele.

It's not just the artists, it's
also the collectors and the

institutions, because the
institutions can only know so

much.

So a really big part of what we
also do is advise institutions

and we work when they kind of
talk.

When we had these conversations
where they want to work with

our artists, a huge part of what
we do is education for them and

helping them understand what
this is and what this isn't.

You know, I've had
conversations with curators who

just fundamentally do not
understand what an NFT is.

They don't understand the
blockchain, they don't

understand a lot of this, and
it's totally okay, because I

didn't either.

Speaker 1: At one point you know
what I mean.

Speaker 2: So you know.

So having these conversations,
quelling their concerns or

acknowledging some of their
concerns, you know, is a core

part of what we do and I think
is really important in thinking

about the success of our artists
, where they're not just popular

in Web 3, but really trying to
cement their stories into the

public narrative that is going
to be here for decades or

centuries to come.

This is what museums do.

I remember seeing this really
interesting stat I think was

presented by Tina Rivers-Ryan
around the different public

institutions Think about parks
and all this stuff and like

what's provided by the
government and whatnot.

And one of the top.

The percentage of the amount of
trust that we have as a

community or as just as a
society in museums is the top.

It is one of the core tenants
of our culture and community and

something that we all go in and
we acknowledge.

You go to a museum.

You're going to assume
everything that you read is true

.

You know that the curators have
done their research.

You know that everyone there is
really mindful about what is

being said, at least now.

Whatever Let me not be, I'll
say that the nuance, but it

doesn't matter there's this idea
that that is really important.

So for us.

It is important for To see our
artists get there and I think

that's Really important.

It's not just getting into the
most the whales wallet, you know

it's like.

What does it look like to work
with Momo, with the SMK, with a

Buffalo AKG and things like that
?

And yeah, it's been.

It's been really cool to see
some of that already come to

life.

You know we've already seen our
artists hit those milestones,

so it's awesome.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I mean in that to me because
like I look at like the, I love

that you mentioned one of the
goals of, like you know, I think

it's a pretty common goal to
like be in a whales wallet, you

know, like it, but but to me,
like that always feels very

short-sighted, it's like okay,
then what?

Speaker 2: You know that there
are a lot of people who are

doing copy trading.

So you're like, you know
there's again.

There's like two sides of this.

Yeah business or multi.

There's a.

It's a multi-faceted, of course
, but you're like, okay, what

are the realities of of living
in this?

Like what three space where
everything?

is pretty public.

Yeah, you there.

There are signals that
everyone's looking for these

signals and this collector
acquired this work.

People are gonna be hype about
it and that might really help

our Artists in the long, in the
long term.

So totally.

Speaker 1: Um, yeah yeah, it's,
it's super interesting.

So so the fact that like and
I'm glad you broke down the

three pillars of like you know
your artists are like the people

that you work with, probably
the closest, the collectors,

probably the next, and then like
educating institutions, you

know, is it's honestly a really
important part because, again,

like, until it made sense for me
to like want to be involved, I

just didn't get it.

I wasn't actively opposed to it
, but I was just like I'm like

Whatever man, I'm like y'all are
a bunch of, you know, like

whatever.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I
remember even when I first got

introduced to the idea of like a
crypto collectible.

I think it was 2018.

Speaker 1: I did hackathon at
MIT.

Mit had this like creative.

Speaker 2: It was a hacking arts
hackathon and I was like, okay,

and I saw Emily Shia, who I was
like such a fangirl for at that

time, go to one, I think in
2017, and I was like Emily, she

went to this, I want to do that
too.

So I did it the next year and
the and the whole entire

continent was around blockchain
and I had already done like.

I had a doubled in like Bitcoin
hackathon and stuff like that

here in Miami especially Miami.

Yeah, and I remember going to
this and seeing John from larval

labs kind of explain present
crypto punks and I I went

through my notes not too long
ago and just like understanding,

like crypto collectible, okay,
okay.

Speaker 1: I think the crypto
collectible.

Speaker 2: That blew my mind,
but it was still so far removes

from art to me personally.

And when the next year, the
following year?

So like at that moment, I
understood what the crypto punks

were.

I think that I tried to place a
bid on a crypto punk Around

that time and they never
accepted it.

I still watch her from time to
time, but you know, whatever

this, is before like open see
was a thing.

Anyway, um, the following year I
remember we were doing a, an

exhibition.

It was our first exhibition, um
, and that was with Tyler and

Dimitri, and Dimitri was doing
his first.

Like we decided that we were
gonna mint One of his works at

the end because we had a buyer
who was interested.

But I remember being very
hesitant at the time.

I was like, um, are we sure
that we want to put this fine?

Speaker 1: artwork.

Speaker 2: Amongst all of these
monsters and weird collectibles

that are out there like is it?

Is it the same?

And I think Um Just knowing
that, like I had a year of a

year or so already kind of like
in this crypto space and still

being really hesitant to Like
engage with it at that moment.

So, like I totally understand
people being hesitant about

everything, I mean to this day
when people are asking like, so

what, what do you do?

I'm like, um, I'm a, I'm an art
dealer and then, oh, what kind

of art?

Um, uh, digital art.

And then oh, and like it kind
of like, it's like a slow Um

feel back, and then I finally
get.

So, yes, I work at NFTs.

I'm a center of art and you know
it's, it's, it's nuts, you know

, and I get that people don't um
understand it and I resonate

with them.

I totally understand why, um,
why it all seems so scary and

wild.

Yeah, I mean even my mom, like
when I talked to her.

Speaker 1: But like, first and
foremost, like my mom is a lot

farther than I would have ever
Inticipated like she's got a

wallet, she's got art in it,
she's like asking there, she's

like and and she's like taking a
genuine interest in it.

But like crypto punks, I don't
think we'll ever click for her.

Like I just, I like I just
don't think that'll ever click.

I'm like, yeah, this sold for
like 10 million dollars.

Speaker 2: You know, she's like
I mean, it's a fucking I would

say, one of my, one of my
biggest regrets, um, was that

year when I did that show with
Tyler and Dimitri and I remember

meeting um Matt and John from
Larva Labs and they were like,

well, you, like you've done such
a good job here, like we would

love to work with you, um, on
something.

I was like, yeah, I mean that
would, that would be great.

I think they're super talented,
yeah, but every time I did my

curations Like an 8-bit punk
didn't make sense of my curation

.

You know what I mean.

Like I wasn't thinking about it
conceptually enough at that

moment.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just like
how important what they've done

totally.

Speaker 2: I'm just like how
important what they've done

totally was.

You know, I was just like.

You know, I'm showing these
works that kind of like you see

them and you think that they
were made by hand.

Then they were made with code
to kind of like bring up that

conversation.

There was like a huge
disconnect between these like

aesthetics that I was trying to
bring forward Versus the

cryptopunks, and so like now I
think back like hindsight, is 20

, 20, of course I was just like,
oh damn it, like I should have.

I should have done that, but you
know you never know you live,

you learn, totally like in the
end in this space, you learn

very fast.

Speaker 1: Like this bit, like I
feel, like we, I feel like we

speedrun Every part of like
human, like any lesson, whether

it's financial, whether it's
personal.

It's like, if you're not a fast
learner here, like it's, you're

gonna get like washed up.

You know, like it's, it's, it's
it's so that I think that's

been one of the biggest
challenges.

Uh, for me, like coming in this
industry, especially full-time,

like how quick you have to
pivot number one, you have to be

hopelessly addicted to Twitter.

Uh, which great I am.

But like number two, like like,
when you see something, the

ability in which you act on it
has to be insanely fast, and we

see a lot of people who don't do
that and the people that do,

and there's just a huge
difference.

Right, like it's.

And it's almost kind of like I
mean, part of me is just really

glad that I'm number one Like,
just kind of like a workaholic

in general and I am around a
bunch of the people who are like

that as well and creative
thinkers.

Um, so like, for me it feels
almost kind of like a blessing

because, like in the beginning,
I just didn't understand how to

like Like sit on a decision for
too long.

It's like, let's just like
fucking do this now.

Like, like this needs to be
done, like the data is here,

like, why are we sitting on this
?

Why are we deliberating?

Let's fucking do it now.

Um, so, in a way, this industry
is perfect for me.

I just kind of had that epiphany
in real time with you.

So, um, uh, but yeah, the, the,
the punk.

I got to ask what punk is your
dream?

Punk, like that was like my
first question like which one is

your dream?

Speaker 2: I am not gonna give a
number because god forbid so,

but I will describe her Um, so
she is me and I am her um she.

So she has brown hair, she has
the clown nose.

Um and some clown uh makeup.

But like she, like, I saw her
and I was like, oh my god, like

I love you and I need you and my
day will come.

My day will come and she Will be
in my wallet.

I don't know when.

I don't know when, but, like, I
have been watching her for

years and I want and I like
always, always looking um Like a

freak of my star cross lovers,
um, but, but my day will come um

, and she will be behind um so.

Let's see, but it's just I like
I would love nothing more than

for my profile picture to be
like this clown, totally this

clown, because that's how I feel
.

I feel it was Hong Kong all the
time, um.

But right now I have known my,
my pfp, which is from my amand

um, uh, faked to make it
Algorithm and it says algorithm

baby.

But why I love it so much was,
um, it's actually not one of the

outputs that was in the, in the
actual.

I think she did like 700 isk
outputs for our blocks, but I

was working on an essay for her
in an upcoming book and I was

doing kind of this critique on
her code and uh, which was

really fun to do, by the way, um
kind of like really go outside

the, the, the bounds of giving a
critique on the visual artwork,

but also like that, her
functions, how she, how she

structured her code and things
like that.

But during that I I was doing a
lot of research and she has this

website take a team, make it
dot lol where the Program is

running in real time.

You can go now and you can see
it.

And During that time I was just
taking screenshots of all these

outputs that were cracking me up
Like I was just having so much

fun and after like the 100th one
, like I saw this algorithm baby

, and I was like oh my god, and
like I took a screenshot and I

was just like this I resonate
with is way too much.

Like I was like I'm obsessed
and so I just made it my my

Profile picture and I kind of
just like love that it's.

You can't buy it, no one can
buy it.

It's just this, this like
really awesome moment, which,

yeah, it's just like a time
stamp in time and also kind of

lends into this idea of what she
was doing, which was

performance and kind of like
capturing that performance live

and just yeah.

I've written baby.

For now, until I get that, that
crypto punk.

Speaker 1: You know, like I'm
honestly so, like mine isn't a

significant.

It's like mine is like,
literally, a project called dogs

and chains that I bought like
back in 2021, but it's like a

dog with a microphone and an
eith chart and I'm like this is

this is like I don't care how
it's fucking great and like I

feels, even when I changed it to
Like a custom Opepe and that

someone made for me based off my
color palette yeah, I was dope,

but like I felt naked without
it and it's like okay like this

is this is clearly, uh, the the
social identity layer of of nfts

is like Really, really really
interesting.

I mean because, like you know,
you look at it and you're like

it's just a fucking profile
picture, but it's like it's so

much more, it's so much more um
well that's how I feel about my

uh, my banner, actually my
banner.

Speaker 2: I have not changed it
since I had my I'm looking at

it, since I started my twitter.

It um, it's a work from Herbert
Franke, um, so it's one of like

the earliest, um kind of
examples of generative art.

He was using an oscillator and
long exposure um a photography

and, um, it's pretty, it's
pretty.

One of my favorite tidbits is
when he came onto twitter and I

looked at his banner.

It was the same exact artwork.

I was like okay, great minds
thinking alike, like it was just

so fun to see like it was, and
so now I'm like I can't change

it now, like no, we had the same
, we had the same banner.

Like it's just so cool.

Um, I think about it every now
and then, but I'm like I'm just

committed to the cause.

I've never changed my banner
the off-chain provenance.

Speaker 1: Like I mean, we love
the on-chain provenance, but

like the off-chain provenance is
like it kind of matters.

There was actually someone in
miami what a great friend Um

medial on him.

He was like when I was talking
to him about, uh, like this is

just completely sidebar, but it
may, it'll it.

I was talking about like that
ack moment where like he like

Sent him, sent a token to the
burn address and then they like

pulled it back out and they like
protect him, um, and he was

like web3 needs like an
encyclopedia for like off-chain

events and I'm like that, like I
mean I mean.

Speaker 2: I want to stop.

I want, I want to open a hole
on a can of worms with that I'm.

Speaker 1: I will stop because,
like there's, Maybe maybe a

little offline, maybe offline
yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
because I I know that where we

are on time and like I could
just keep going, so let me.

One time I did a Twitch stream
with a friend of mine.

That was supposed to be an hour
, we ended up talking for five

hours.

Um, I know I'll.

Yeah, yeah, we have fun.

Speaker 1: You know we do that
just means we'll have to have

another conversation.

Um, because yeah.

This is what happened with me,
and dies like dies was like

episode number five of like this
podcast when I was solo and it

just we sat there for like four
hours.

Two hours of it was unrecorded
and the other two hours was

recorded.

I'm just like holy fuck, that
was insane.

Um, he's the one who had to
remind me to like hit the record

button.

So, uh, you just love moments
like this.

But since, in the spirit of time
, since I do, uh, at least at

the top of our idea of a soft
deadline but or a soft stop, but

in the essence of time, you
know, you mentioned you're like

a five to ten to 20 year thinker
, which I think is it's

brilliant.

It's also incredibly
challenging in a space like this

, like that, like like this
whole year feels like three

years.

You know, um, time moves and an
incredible like incredibly fast

here, so so many things happen.

Um, we'd love to kind of know
if you thought about this in the

next let's just do an easier
one five years.

What is it that you don't see
now that you would like to see

in five years, at least in the
genotivary space specifically?

Speaker 2: That's a really good
question, um, and the reason why

it's hard to answer is because
Everything I've ever thought

could happen has happened Um, in
, in and then some, so it's like

where are we now?

Um, you know.

I think, in five years.

I think, more than anything, um,
it's going to be kind of moving

away from this idea of we need
traditional art collectors.

Enough of that.

I'm actually just really
excited for this new wave of um

professionals, collectors that
are going to enter the space,

that grew up learning how to
code, knowing how to code and

actually just have a Genuine
love and appreciation for what's

been happening over the last
few years.

And I think that's going to be
a really special moment, um,

when we kind of get this like
new wave of um collectors with

buying power that Can really
connect with what we've all been

doing.

And I think you know, again,
the timelines are so much

shorter because before it was,
like, you know, we saw the

Impressionist and we saw all
this of it and it's like decade

that almost a hundred years
later, and their markets are

going absolutely nuts and, like
you know, now it's just

everything is like so hyper
condensed that I could see, like

in five years, kind of this new
wave of um buyers come in who

have grown up kind of just like
having to to know.

Speaker 1: What it?

Speaker 2: is that we're all
doing and just genuinely

appreciate it and kind of see a
maturation of the um, of our

space, and of collectors and
their Beacuses, like you know

what I mean.

So I think first, like just
wanting to acquire the word

because they genuinely love it
and I still love the saying, I

came for the flip, stayed for
the art, it's bear.

We do have collectors here who
genuinely love what they're

doing, um, but I'm just curious
to see how that, how that

evolves and how um, you know,
seeing the younger generation

come in and build upon it,
expand upon it and then also

appreciate, like what's been
happening.

Speaker 1: I really like that
answer.

I mean, it's really hard to you
know it's something that, like,

I often don't think about of
like, okay, you know we have an

iPad generation of kids.

You know we've had people that
have never grown up without

technology.

Like you know, I'm not gonna
ask how old you are, live on a

podcast, cause I think it's
frankly rude, but like I'm an

early nineties baby and like I
grew up without a phone, you

know.

So like, okay, okay, cool, all
right, we're in the same

ballpark.

So it's like I know what it's
like.

Speaker 2: Like I feel like I've
hit the third floor and so I

was like is that what they say?

That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1: We're on the third
floor, but it's like, like I

understand what it means for
this technology to be where it's

at Like I lived through the
iPhone, we lived through high

speed internet and now we've
lived through blockchain.

But it's like, it's interesting
like how, like what the cycles

are gonna be like for people who
grew up with only an iPhone,

who grew up with, you know,
knowing what the like without

knowing what the world was
without the internet, like what

happens when they have buying
power.

I think that's a really
fascinating topic.

Like I didn't even fucking
think about that, so anyway, in

the essence of time, Sophia.

like this has been an absolute
treat.

Thank you for coming on and
spending so much time, and I'm

glad like after the 69 different
schedules, we found like one

that worked.

This is we did good on us, good
on us like we did good.

So I'm really happy that we
were able to do that.

So, just to learn more about
you, or for anyone who has to

like get in contact with you, or
learn a little more about what

you're doing with Artix Code,
like where should they go first,

Ooh, okay, we'll do all the
shameless-.

All the things.

Speaker 2: So, okay, good,
twitter.

We'll start off with Twitter
Sophia with an F, sophia Garcia,

underscore, IO, and then Artix
Code, which is at artixcodeio.

Then we've got Instagram.

Instagram I look at it's kind
of my, that is like my finsta

for Twitter.

That's like where I'm not an all
professional, but I just have a

lot more fun on my Instagram
it's like where really my

friends follow me, so I'm a
little bit more loose there.

So that's just Sophia Garcia,
no underscores, no IO's.

And then Instagram for Artix
Code is artixcodeio, which is

also our website.

And also, just a shameless plug
, I'm really excited about two

books that are coming out in
2024.

One of them is Toshin, the book
publisher Toshin.

They are doing a book called On
NFCs and I wrote the chapter

for Generative Art for them.

So, very, very excited.

I recount the history, kind of
talk about how we got here, and

it's a really fun read.

I think it will hopefully have
actually turned to an entire

book because there was so much
that I couldn't cover that I

wanted to.

And then also, Mya Mann is also
releasing a book on Fakutumake

and I touched on that essay a
little bit earlier.

But if you're interested in
seeing my writing more on the

yeah, my writing on just looking
at code as part of the art,

you'll be able to read that they
are one of five.

Not sure what it will be, but
it's coming soon.

So, yeah, those are my
shameless plugs and where you

can find me online.

Speaker 1: Amazing.

Thank you for that.

I'm really happy you shared
that because, yeah, I'm just

really happy you shared that
I've started to get a lot more

into reading since I've come
into this space.

Ironically enough, this space
really makes you learn how to

read, because if you don't read,
you get wrecked.

So right, yeah.

Speaker 2: I think we may have
coined that too.

Make it wrecked.

Yeah, yeah, totally yeah, I
like that, I like that.

Speaker 1: We've come up with a
few you heard me here first,

folks yeah.

Totally well.

Thank you again so much, sophia
.

I really again just appreciate
it.

I'm glad we got to actually
meet in Miami before we did this

and happy that we got to do
this, and I can't fucking wait

to give you a hug whenever we
see each other next.

So yes, Pisces power.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: Pisces power.

Let's go All right.

Well, cool, hang out for a
little bit, since this finish is

uploading.

But again, thanks so much and I
hope you have a great night.

Speaker 2: Thank you, you too.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Shiller Curated

Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember if you're

looking for it.

Art is everywhere and it's up
to us to appreciate and explore

the emotions it brings to our
lives.

Until next time, this is Boona
signing off.