Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Shiller Curated

Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Ben Roy, co-founder of

Accelerate Art Angel Investor
and one of the deepest thinkers

within Web 3.

In this episode, we cover a
broad array of topics, including

the future of decentralized,
autonomous organizations, the

pros and cons of
self-sovereignty, the impact

writing has had on Ben's life
and even a personal look into

his early exposure to art as a
teenager.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Ben.

Speaker 2: Sir, how are you?

Gm dude, I am so good.

I'm glad to be able to chat
with you today.

This is gonna be fun.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a
long time, long time enjoyer.

I wouldn't say I'd be lying if
I said first time caller,

because we've had a few chats
before, First official chat

documented.

Feels really good, man, great
to have you on dude.

Speaker 2: Totally it's fun
because I think we're both like

media nerds a bit too, so it's
just exciting to be able to see

you in your element.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I mean
metaphorically, you can see my

little dog icon floating, true,
yeah, but yeah, dude, this is

definitely my element.

It's my comfy zone.

Great to have you in it.

Man, I just want to say a huge
welcome to you and thanks again

for coming on the pod.

I feel like this has been a
long time coming.

For those that don't know, ben
is my favorite thought boy.

Love everything.

Come on all right.

Seriously, dude, Our
newsletters, our emails get

really bombarded.

It's really hard to, even if
there's signal in there to want

to pay attention at times, but
it's really great because, as

someone who's mainly focused on
the art side, I do obviously

came into crypto with a little
degeneracy and love the

collectibles, but when you dive
into a certain corner of this

already niche community, it's
really hard to poke your head up

and see what else is happening.

I feel like I get a great
perspective of that with you.

You just cover the whole space
so well.

Yeah, dude, very much thank you
for you and your writing.

It's really cool to hear the
way you think about the space.

Yeah, just probably what we're
going to talk a lot about today,

man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, I
appreciate that so much.

High praise.

Yeah, thank you so much.

I mean you don't really get to
write unless you have an

audience, so I have to say thank
you for tuning in.

I mean it's just fun to click,
send and hope that some random

people on the internet and some
random friends I've now made

over the internet actually care
and read it and all that stuff.

Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1: Totally, man, yeah,
so I got to ask though I always

like to hear a little bit of the
intro into crypto how you found

this, and were you also writing
before this?

Has writing always been a thing
for you?

Did you come as a result of
playing around here?

Speaker 2: Yeah, those are good
questions.

Cool.

I'll give you the crypto
backstory first and then we'll

get into the writing stuff.

So I jumped into crypto in 2019
.

I was listening to a finance
podcast about XRP, no less, and

pretty quickly found my way into
Bitcoin and ETH.

But it was just like a normal
sort of like trad finance

background.

I was working in kind of
international economics,

international human rights stuff
and kind of got sucked down the

proverbial rabbit hole and in
mid 2019, I want to say, I

started just messing around with
Ethereum and owning some

Bitcoin and actually got into
open seed pretty quickly.

I bought some Decentraland,
because you're just sitting

there being like I wonder if
this is going to be ready player

one one day.

I should probably buy some land
and I mean, it's so funny.

It's like really truly the 50
IQ version of things, as the

meme goes.

But yeah, it just felt like, as
it sounds like, as the

experience with many people in
crypto.

It just felt like an industry
quote, unquote.

That's like at the intersection
of so many different cool

things.

It's like tech and it's finance
and it's culture and it's like

an extension of the internet and
it's global, like there's just

so many cool aspects here that I
yeah, I pretty quickly decided

I wanted to do more full time
work there and so in 2020, I

shifted over to my first job in
the space and that was doing a

startup in kind of the DeFi side
of things.

I'm a developer tool called
Geyser I were two friends who

founded that and I became the
third qualitative person right,

doing kind of the everything
else role from community to

marketing and BD and all that,
all that stuff, and it was just.

It was really cool.

This is like DeFi summer time,
so there was definitely some

energy in 2020, but it wasn't as
euphoric.

So you learn a lot about how to
do everything wrong first,

basically right and you know
when token and how do you like

it's just hilarious trying to
manage like a public community,

right.

But yeah, that went really well
.

It was interesting to just
learn about crypto and you get

exposure to a lot of stuff when
you're, when you're working in

the industry.

That ended up getting acquired
by passage protocol for like a

small win, and then I shifted
pretty quickly into NFTs.

I just felt like more at home
in the culture side of the space

, a little bit from the art side
, a little bit from the gaming

side, like that whole like ready
player one thing.

That's one of my favorite
movies and I've always felt like

resonant with that and yeah, so
beginning of 2021, I kind of

got into you know, this would
have been the NFT bubble, would

have started to be bubbling at
that point but into kind of

crypto punks and art blocks and
some of these early NFTs

communities.

And then around that time I met
a good friend, claire Silver,

who has since that time become,
you know, quite well known

obviously, and the NFT crypto
universe, I mean just in the art

world in general.

She's like a wonderful AI
artist and a very creative human

and she and I ended up starting
what's called Accelerate Art.

So it's now a nonprofit based
in New York and we do some work

with emerging artists and do at
this point now it's about six

shows a year that track like the
arts circuit, the tech, the

crypto conference circuit.

But at the time back in 2021,
it was just a you know, this is

like kind of middle of COVID
times.

We want to explore and do
something with the NFT world by

planting a flag and saying like
this stuff is actually art.

And so we did some shows where
we're in these like random nerdy

indie, you know, virtual spaces
like crypto, voxels, right, and

we were on clubhouse for audio
and it was like just chaotic and

fun, yeah yeah.

So that was like the entry into
the more arts and NFT side of

things.

And you know, I've worn a few
different hats since then, but

the maybe the most relevant to
our I worked at tribute labs for

a while, through 2021 and 2022,
which is a DAO operations

company.

Effectively, you're helping
small communities that are

focused on investing do that.

Investing it's kind of like a
venture capital role, but in a

decentralized way, and so you
just learn a lot.

There's a lot of smart people
around that space and very cool

to just be a fly on the wall for
those conversations.

And then a good friend of mine,
stefan, who's an artist and a

designer.

He wanted to explore doing an
NFT project, but specifically a

creative commons one.

He's really interested in kind
of open source culture and tech,

and so I just wanted to help
him make that happen and so we

did Good Minds was the name of
that.

And then finally, wrapping up
here, over the last let's say,

18 months, the main thing that
I've done while keeping

Accelerate Art alive has been
more on the angel investor

advisor side of the space.

So just having the opportunity
to work with about a dozen

startups, yeah, it's that
intersection of kind of crypto

and culture and art and gaming
and yeah, that's how I got to

kind of where I am today.

I'll pause there.

That's a lot of a story to
unwind.

We can talk about writing after
too.

But yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1: Totally dude.

Yeah, you served me quite a few
verticals to, or I guess I

should say quite a few rabbit
holes to hop in, and this is

always the analysis, paralysis
of a host that I get to solve in

real time.

When people give you such a
dense story, is which one do?

I want to go down with the
constraint of time that we do

have.

I mean, just a comment before
we do that like it's really

impressive to kind of see how
you fell into it, how you've

navigated it since kind of
really where the entry point was

and really where really went.

Like it was like the start was
finance and then culture came

afterwards.

So kind of it's just cool to
see, like when people like for

me at least, when I onboard
people, it's like you have to

give them a reason to care.

You know, and you know it
typically makes sense to onboard

people with what they spend the
most time with, and so just

wanted to just to comment on
like how it's cool, how you kind

of just fell into the culture
side because right around when

you fell into accelerated,
started meeting Claire and doing

some of those crypto boxes
meetups is really right around

my entry point into crypto as
well, like as a whole, you know,

like I didn't really do a whole
lot of good.

So, you know, for me it was,
you know, a little bit different

than yours.

It was like, oh, now there's
pictures on these tokens and

that makes it more interesting.

I understand pictures more than
I understand the tokens, you

know, and so, like it was like
the Trojan horse for me to

really understand this world.

I think, really where I want to
jump into the like jump down a

rabbit holes around Dows, just
specifically because it's the

area I really have the least
amount of knowledge, you know,

and I have a few caveat or a few
like layers of context here is

that you know, I look at like
voting in general, like the just

the concept of governance,
let's just like boil it, boil it

to that topic as a whole.

It's really hard to like get
people to vote.

You know it's really hard to
like incentivize people like

want to like do shit, because
it's not like even in our

country, or in probably in your
country, voting is not the most

like appealing thing.

You have to like take off work.

You have to.

It's like a huge pain in the
ass.

It's like no, like you don't
see results immediately.

Yeah With Dows.

Do you see Dows making a big
dent in any of our like just I

would just want to call it like
IRL or human governance systems

that we currently have in place.

Speaker 2: It's a great question
, man.

I think it's interesting when
you get around kind of emerging

technology people, there's a lot
of optimism around like, hey,

this is gonna change everything.

You know, we saw this around,
like even the early 2010s with

social media, right.

You're like, oh, everything's
different.

Like this time it's gonna be
different, you know, but in a

different framing of that phrase
.

Yeah, and it's just, it's like
humbling to look back and think,

well, we have 5,000 years of,
you know, western history here,

since Athens, thinking about
governance of humans.

Right, it's not necessarily
like these are new conversations

, but yeah, I think about dows
as an interesting next chapter

in human governance.

I think there's definitely like
some reruns of a lot of the old

problems that we've had for
many, many, you know, centuries

at this point, but there's also
some like new interesting cool

things because you can
coordinate over the internet in

an economic way that didn't
really exist before.

You know blockchains, right,
and so, yeah, I think I would

say like I am cautiously
optimistic on Dows as a vertical

.

I think a lot of what has
happened in the last, say, five

years or whatever that they've
been around, has been lackluster

.

It's a bit tricky, like you've
said, to get people to care or

to coordinate, and often like
there aren't really incentives

for people To do anything and
effectively it's just a gigantic

group project on the internet
where no one cares and does

anything.

Right, like that's probably the
summary statement for most dows

, honestly.

But I do think that there are
particular Examples, or like

verticals, where it becomes like
cool and new and interesting

and compelling.

I think where I'm coming from,
where, well, at least when I was

working at tribute labs, like
that example of an investment,

dow is one you know compelling
example to me, where you gather

a small group of people.

You know, in that case it's all
like regulated and legally

above board and companies based
in the states.

It's just that the structure is
different, right, like the way

that people come together and
vote on capital allocation Is

different.

Is it perfect?

No, but I think it's like a
meaningful alternative to normal

venture capital and while most
people in the world don't really

care about venture capital or
don't interface with that as

like a Is a concept, it's just
interesting to see dow is kind

of disrupt one little thing,
because that's how it starts,

right, like you need to prove
your concept to say, hey, like

there's something new and
interesting here Could even just

be a bunch of collectors
gathering money together and

saying like, hey, we want to be
stewards of this type of culture

, right, whether it's generative
art or art in Asia or whatever,

it's right.

And so I think those are two of
the two of the areas that I'm

particularly interested in are
kind of the capital allocation

side and the collecting side.

I'm biased, but I would say
tribute labs is, you know, among

the best players in the game
when it comes to this stuff, and

Particularly my, my old boss is
there, aaron right and pre Just

, both, both brilliant folks,
and so, yeah, if anyone who's

listening to this is interested
in dows, I would encourage them

to check those, those people out
, because, yeah, there's a lot

there.

Speaker 1: Got it.

No, that's super interesting.

And what this really makes me
think about is, like, because

the only dow that you know, you
know, before you mentioned, you

know, before you mentioned
tribute labs was, is flamenco

dow, you know, and it's like
that's the only one where I've

seen, where I'm like that makes
sense, you know, like that

totally, that like from an
outside looking in, like they

are stewards of us, of a
particular type of culture, and

it's like it kind of just makes
sense to riff on your point,

that like culture seems to be,
that seems to be the Seems to be

, what moves the needle and
anything.

It's usually the first mover
before anything else comes to

play.

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

And just to clarify too,
tribute labs actually operates

flamenco dow, so those are the
same group of people and so I

had the chance to kind of help
out a little bit.

Just as like, effectively,
you're the intern, right where

you're, you're able to just
listen to a lot of really smart,

interesting, thoughtful
collectors and investors Make

their decisions and help do a
little bit of the administration

behind the scenes.

But yeah, it's great, it's
great that you're able to flag

that, because I do think
flamenco is pretty prominent as

an example of you know, people
who effectively are patrons of

the digital arts, right like
they've really done a great job

at Helping to taste, make NFTs
as a category In my mind and you

know there's a lot of people I
admire in that group.

But yeah, tribute is
effectively a steward or like a

helpful Governance component to
house flamenco operates and

obviously I'm not gonna get too
too far in the weeds here

specifically, but yeah, just
just just a flag that they're

one in the same operation.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that, that
goes to show you how much I Knew

.

I just noticed flamingo.

I know the front-facing, you
know.

So that, totally, yeah, that
makes a lot of sense and it's

really cool to hear about that.

Like it's, it's cool to kind of
see the different layers and

how and how that functions,
because, to me at least, really

and I guess this also makes me
think about, like you know,

typically we don't know what's
gonna be new until the new thing

comes.

So, like you know, when it
comes to different voting, when

it comes to different like
reasons to vote on something or

the idea of governance in this
new age, that to me is really

the only thing that I can
conceptualize, given my

knowledge.

That really makes the most
sense.

Or I'm like, okay, cool, like I
could see some things built

around it.

But as far as, like, what else
that could positively impact, I

don't really know, you know,
when it come, yeah, just in,

just in Dallas, in general, yeah
, there's.

Speaker 2: There's kind of a
wider way of thinking about this

, like if we zoom out from kind
of collecting and investing the

idea of governance over like a
public good At scale is

interesting at some level, like
Ethereum or Bitcoin even have

like a rough consensus form of
governance which is like, oh, we

want to do this kind of thing
in our development roadmap and

you get a bunch of people around
the world kind of debating it

and thinking about it and then
they decide, okay, yeah, we're

gonna do that right.

But even more specifically, in
some of the like layer to

quote-unquote Solutions that
exist on Ethereum, those are

things that come to mind.

Something like arbitrum, which,
for people who may not be super

deep in the weeds, is
effectively like a scaling

solution for helping Ethereum
function better.

That is an example of like a
public good in a way.

Right, we're token holders, are
able to vote on certain

outcomes and, as you think about
, like, say, the next decade,

there's gonna be a lot of
Software that matters, right,

that affects a lot of different
people, and so this idea of

being able to have a governance
component to open source chunks

of the internet like that's cool
to me too.

It's a little bit of a
different conversation than,

like, sure, a bunch of people
throwing money into a multi

signature wallet to hopefully,
like, buy the Constitution or

whatever.

But there's, there's like there
are different plays here, right

, and so I think, yeah, it's a
bit nerdy, but I do think that

that vertical is also something
that we'll see played out over

the next few years.

Speaker 1: That is, yeah, that's
thanks for number one reminded

me of that moment.

That was a.

That was a moment of euphoria
on the internet and I and I I

remember that very well and I
think I remember it being outbid

by someone who is like like a
rabid anti-crypto, you know like

he's very much against it, but
he's the one who bought it.

I thought that was hysterical.

Totally very funny.

Yeah, the irony of that was
really great.

It's either crypto bros won or
we got someone who wasn't

intending to buy something do it
out of principle Just because

he didn't want to win.

Speaker 2: I mean, it's a little
bit tricky to when and this is

this goes to show, maybe it's
just the last comment on the

doubt stuff.

Yeah, yeah, if your treasury,
which is like the sum total of

the money that you raised, is
public and you're trying to go

into an auction against someone,
you can't really compete

because the other person knows
that you're limited at a certain

cap, right.

And so I think it was Ken
Griffin at Citadel, yeah, one of

the biggest, you know marking
market makers in the world who

Outbid the it's that, that group
for the Constitution.

But it's kind of like, okay,
well, just do your your balance

plus one dollar, right, and then
it's kind of over.

But yeah, I think, like headline
here is there's definitely some

interesting experiments that
are live today.

So it's a cool thing to follow,
especially if you're like a

politics or you know
anthropology or social kind of

nerd.

But the question becomes like,
yeah, what, what does this

actually mean for like real
people in practice?

And I think we're gonna have to
see.

You know, wait and see for that
experiment to get played out.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Yeah, I mean often and you
can't I think Sean is the one

who pilled me on this but
recently, listening to Lex

Friedman's podcast with Balot
apology on the network state,

yeah, and that's really where,
like, when I hear about that,

that's really where this like
makes sense.

You know, I really said my
opinion where it's like okay,

cool if we're all on a network
state or if there are multiple

network states, this makes a lot
more sense.

But until that point happens,
it's kind of hard to to really

conceptualize that.

Or like getting our own people
you know, people that don't,

that are not complete nerds To
like want to use.

Yeah, you know For sure.

So, well, cool, man, that that
was a great like.

Yeah, that was a great little
bit there.

I mean because, yeah, dows or
something, yeah, it says these

things.

I want to keep my keep my eyes
on, but Appreciate you going

there.

It's cool to kind of hear a
little bit more about how they

function and kind of how you
think about it.

A lot of interesting use cases
here.

So something else that you know
you mentioned in your, your end

.

You're like great intro, I'm
like cool, like I could just

like take things from a little
basket.

Yeah, yeah, is, you know, is
gaming man?

You know, like, obviously
there's a lot of people that Are

gamers.

I'm an FPS guy, not more than
you know, but you know there's a

lot of people that are gaming
of a lot of different we're a

lot of different types of gaming
hats.

So I'd love to kind of know,
like how, like how gaming has

impacted your views on, like on
the web 3 space or on the crypto

space as a whole.

Speaker 2: Yeah, great question,
man.

I think what I think about
gaming, I think about it as like

we.

I mean I'm 30 years old, I kind
of grew up with the internet

right Like my life has kind of
tracked the rise of the internet

and the first Virtual spaces
really that I hung out in are

like games on the internet.

It's like neopets and RuneScape
, like role-playing games,

things like that, and then
shifting into you know Xbox and

console stuff and my own kind of
FPS like Journey with Halo and

Call of Duty and all that, and
so really what that Kind of cued

me to realize is that there's
value in digital things for one,

and we can talk about that, but
also that, like being able to

connect with people in a
distributed way across

geographies is very meaningful
and I think you know most people

would agree with that today,
especially like in a post COVID

world where everything went
remote and everyone's on zoom

and stuff.

But I think people who are
gamers Kind of intuitively know

that and knew that before it
became like a very consensus

view.

And so, yeah, when I think about
you know gaming and how to

intersects with crypto, I think
sure that there's just this

basic sense of being able to own
items on the internet and that

being interesting and there
being kind of Game economies and

things like this, or being able
to flex status based on what

you've accomplished and you know
, things.

That would To some degree,
anyway, in my view, make

intuitive sense to most people
who would play games.

I think it's also just a cool,
like crypto offers a different

way to gather people right.

They have economic alignment
together, they have extra

reasons and incentives to
participate in these different

universes and to build community
, really, right.

So to me it's also like hey,
this is cool because it gives

gamers a different way to come
into relationship with each

other, and so you see some of
that around.

You know World of Warcraft or
anything that's had an economy,

regardless of whether the rails
or crypto or Fiat her.

But yeah, those are.

Those are sort of two of the
points that I think get me

excited Just being able to own
things, that the status piece of

that, the economy piece of that
, and then also just the ways

that community can form Around
these objects, and that being

particularly interesting too.

Speaker 1: I think there really
is man and I'm gonna linger on a

few, on a point here Around the
idea of digital objects,

because, you know, to me gaming
was like my first Like aha

moment.

I'm like, wow, this just like
makes complete sense.

You know, it's like there's,
there's, there's no way that

this you know this was the most
obvious use case from from the

very beginning is what I could
really, you know, latch myself

on to, you know.

But what's interesting is it
like the more conversations I've

had and like I still kind of
keep a small pulse, or us, you

know, I kind of keep my toe in
the traditional gaming world or

just in that community as well,
because that's really where I

came from before here, like I,
you know, podcasted in the East

Boat's realm and I was content
creator and Twitch, and so you

know, of course, I still follow
a few people and it's just, you

know, I can't help but just
notice, the sentiment just has

to me, the sentiment really
hasn't changed since 2021 and

it's like, well, I agree with
you.

You know, is this just gonna be
some Super kind of niche corner

of the internet, kind of like I
guess this could be where, like

the indie game, like I feel
like indie games are gonna be

Threat, like gonna thrive in the
near future, like it's not that

they haven't, but kind of like
how culture has always moved the

needle for Just the rest of the
world.

Like you could argue that indie
games, you know, have moved the

needle for the rest of the
gaming industry because that's

where free to play I don't
present and play to earn center.

Yeah, just mainly free to play.

Was you know?

Now, fortnight's on it.

It was you know, but it was.

I can't remember the other
games before, but, um, yeah, I

guess, just like.

Yeah, man, does this populate
the whole ecosystem or is this

just gonna be what indie games
become?

And it's like, yeah, just yeah.

Definitely curious your
thoughts on that.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Oh man, there's so much here.

I think the way I think about
this is it's kind of like a

barbell.

I do think a lot of what you're
saying around indie games Will

kind of map over crypto and, to
an extent that that's already

happening, this idea of like
stuff that's new, it's

experimental, like you have a
diehard fan base, but it's

pretty narrow, and then that you
know this this throwaway line

of like good niche subculture
becomes mainstream culture over

time, and I think that's like a
good trajectory for like indie

games Influencing mainstream
games.

I think, like one angle to the
crypto gaming conversation is to

say you know, there's gonna be
an indie scene here and that

eventually will like transport
itself into the mainstream.

I do think, at the same time,
though, you're probably gonna

see some mainstream stuff that
abstracts a lot of the you know

quote unquote scene, or like
this in the Side of things away,

such that normal people can
just play these games but

there's extra functionality that
they're able to explore if they

would like to.

And so, yeah, like when I think
about games that are being

built right now, or like, you
know, investors who are smarter

than me, who like think about
gaming and wrestle with what

this could look like.

I think we're gonna start to
see.

You know, both things have
their lane where you have more

of like a crypto native version
of gaming and then a mainstream

set of gaming, because so much
of the Context, for, you know,

the wider gaming industry still
sees crypto as like negative,

right?

Yeah, it in 2021.

A lot of the narratives were,
you know, like NFTs are

destroying the environment and,
because of sort of proof of work

, the emissions and obviously
these things have changed.

I don't know.

I mean, maybe it takes a
rebrand, maybe people don't call

them NFTs, they call them
digital objects or or whatever

it is.

But yeah, I think, going
forward, if we were to teleport,

you know, three to five years
into the future, my sense is

you're gonna you're gonna see
indie games that will still

exist, that have a little bit
more of like a crypto Nerd ethos

, and then you're gonna have a
lot of mainstream games that

just use crypto rails.

People will assume that you're
able to own these items and a

lot of what gets us excited will
just be part of the fabric of

gaming.

Speaker 1: Wow, dude, there's a
lot to respond to on that.

Yeah, I feel like this is a
great.

Yeah, I love this.

I love this man.

I'm gonna draw back to a
previous episode of the podcast

of of a podcast I did with bona
fide Han and we.

We rift on a topic.

Dude, one of my favorite, one
of the most brilliant people I

think I've, yeah, I think I've
met here.

I just, yeah, love the way that
guy operates and what we, what

we lingered on was the idea of,
you know, like the, the jump

from fiat to digital currency
and then the jump from digital

currency to digital objects.

You know, and we we talked
about, really, where the

challenge is is like, once, once
people accept Digital currency

is something that is valuable to
them or that they want to, they

want to, you know, have some,
have something up.

Then the jump from digital
currency to digital objects is

really simple.

Like I don't even think it's a
jump.

You just walk across a short
bridge, you know what I mean and

you're like, oh well, that that
makes a lot of sense, you know.

So sometimes I just kind of
wonder on this, like where,

where the fight really lies, you
know, like, is it?

Is it in the main currency of
things?

Is it, you know, or is it
trying to just pill people in a

teaser?

Is it just making fun games?

You know there's there's so
many different ways to think

about, like how to cater to the
masses.

And while we're on this topic,
though, like something that I've

realized, it's a.

I think it's the double-edged
sword, at least for me

personally, of what I enjoyed
the most about the space is that

this space feels very
counterculture and very non Like

we don't want.

It's like there's a, there's a,
there's an underlying, you know,

air of like week, we, we do
what mass adoption, but we don't

.

You know it's because it's kind
of fun to like have all the,

have all the asymmetry and have
all the opportunity here, you

know.

So it can be challenging and I
and I guess really where I'm

going with that is, you know,
like once this becomes, once

there is an area of mainstream,
and say there is two lanes where

you know you have kind of just
the really hardcore community,

you know, crypto, native
community, building kind of in

tinkering with new things in the
indie world, and then you have

more of the abstracted, you know
the abstracted community, which

is more of kind of mass
adoption.

It kind of just makes me wonder
, you know, like, what this type

of community will go for next
once there is more of a

mainstream adoption, because I
feel like people here are just

gonna go for whatever's next,
like once, once it like once

everyone comes.

It's like get the fuck away,
type of thing.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a
good observation, man.

I think there's a lot of there.

There's there's at least a
strain of anti establishment

energy Among most crypto people,
and it's not even necessarily

to say politically one way or
the other.

Look, there's a lot of people
across the whole spectrum that

I've met anyway in crypto, but
there's just like one of the

unifying things is sort of a
rejection of hierarchy or

existing ways of doing things.

So I don't know, I mean, I think
, like the current indie game

scene, independent of crypto, is
probably a good, you know, case

study there where, yeah, what
is cool and what is popular

changes and people kind of go
with that, whether it's like art

style or game mechanics or
whatever it is.

You just, yeah, you naturally
have a bit of a an edge

community on like the fringe of
the internet, and that probably

leads to, yeah, like new and
innovative things over time.

For sure.

We'll see it, we'll have to see
what happens, though I think

I'm definitely torn.

I'm sort of caught in between,
right, where you want to see

mainstream adoption and have,
you know, normal people Using

the things that you get excited
about every day, but I

definitely understand that.

You know, there's like
something fun and interesting

about having a subculture that
you're part of, and so yeah, man

, we'll see.

Speaker 1: Totally dude and I
and I think I'm gonna use a

pretty Pretty, you know, a
pretty raw example is that, like

you know, when I was in and I
lived in Colorado this is before

I got sober you know when when
pot was illegal, there was

something fun about buying pot,
you know.

But once pot became legal, it
just became like smoking a

cigarette, you know what I mean
and it was just there was, it

was like there was some air of
excitement that was gone, you

know.

So I think that's part of you
know at least me personally,

maybe not everyone that
specifically or that specific

example but like it feels like
there's just, yeah, this bit of

like we're getting away with
something because there is

opportunity, you know, and then
once, once that's gone, it's

like I fuck that man, like I
mean it's, it's, but it is a bit

different, like it's that's
sometimes that could.

That could probably be an
unfair comparison because it's,

you know, if you really are here
and you believe in what we're

building, like you'd want to see
people use it every day, like

that'd be pretty fucking cool,
to be honest totally.

Speaker 2: There's a couple of
different things there, man.

I think, like, at one level,
crypto Isn't just a subculture,

because if you're able to
execute against like these

narratives of self sovereignty
and you know Whatever being able

to own items yourself, that
there is something that's kind

of like deeply
Anti-establishment about that,

but it's also deeply empowering,
right, which is why you see

people who are like totally
libertarian and I'm like totally

left-wing All attracted to
crypto in some way because it

undermines, like, the current
system in an interesting way.

So if you if you, you know see
that played out to its end

degree, and I do think you
probably see Some meaningful

change depending on, like,
whatever your perspectives are.

But also I think you know, as
you're talking, I was just

thinking we're living in a very
interesting moment of many

emerging technologies Growing
rapidly and integrating with

each other and having some sort
of exponential growth here.

So I do think, no matter what
happens, like there's gonna be

some you know emerging scene of
of Text stuff going on somewhere

.

So I don't think you'll you'll
have to worry too much about you

know, finding that tribe, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 1: Thanks for playing to
my fear there.

Speaker 2: I got you.

Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, man.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a
really great, that's a really

great point, and it kind of
leads me to another question

that you probably have seen a
little bit being on being on the

angel side is, you know, when
we talk about the idea self

sovereignty, like to me now,
today, that sounds like it's

like I love it, like now that
I've like been doing it for a

little while and like I
understand the concepts and it.

You know, like when I could I
always say I was converted from

like a right-click saver to a
left-click owner, like that's a

different feeling, you know, and
that's a good one liner, isn't

it, man?

I think I don't.

I don't know if I stole that or
if I made it up or if I like

created it, but it's been so
long I don't remember.

We're just gonna go with that's
mine, but the but, the but the

road to getting there, like I've
had to cut my teeth in a pretty

brutal way, you know,
especially in the very beginning

.

Like you know, you, I think
everyone to some degree has an

experience with, you know,
clicking on a bad link, or like

entering their seed phrase to a
fishing website.

You know, that was me, like I'll
just that was me in the very

beginning.

You know, yeah, and it's like
that was a really tough L.

You know, like I just flipped
two world of women.

You know I made like 1.5.

You know I made like basically
an ETH profit, you know, yeah.

And then you know, I transferred
some to my cold wallet but then

you know, I like had I got, I
got fish in a telegram and I

entered in my seed phrase twice
because I thought it was legit

and it got drained and like I
knew in my head that you're not

supposed to enter in your seed
phrase, like, but until you do

it, until you have that kind of
like, you know Just a moment

where you do it and you don't
think about it, you know you

don't really learn.

So I guess, how, like, in the
way you think about it, like,

how do we make that Not as
daunting?

Because, like it was, it would
have been really easy for me and

I thought about it to just pack
it up and leave.

You know, I was like that this
is fucking stupid, like I don't

want to do.

This is dumb and I think a lot
of people do you know.

So how do we make that?

Or what tools do you see?

Or that that are missing or
that you see Are being built to

like make that easier?

Speaker 2: For sure.

Well, first off, I'm sorry that
that happened.

It happens to many of the best
of us, so, yeah, you're

definitely not alone.

I think.

Yeah, it's a hard problem.

Ultimately, right, and I'm not
sure I'm gonna have too much

insight here, there's a lot of
other people who have like a,

might have a sharper take, but
my sense is we'll probably need

more friendly, you know, ways to
access crypto products and

services that don't let you, you
know, go through those

experiences of getting fish,
right, whether that's just like

a mobile wallet exercise, where
you have like social recovery

ways that are just like
abstracting away all of this or

some of the complexity, at least
right, so technically, you

don't have to manage like a seed
phrase yourself, right, maybe

that just exists on your phone
in some way and you have a way

of recovering that with your
friends or something, or people

who are trusted, confidence, and
you know, so that there's ways

at the UX level to make access
and crypto products and services

easier.

I do think part of the challenge
with some of these things is

it's at the social level, right,
not the technical one where I

get texts all the time when it's
like, hey, your bank needs you

to do this like click this great
link, right, and if I didn't

already know in advance, like
okay, this is probably a

phishing scam, I would click
that.

Now it's hard because that's
like a mainstream phone.

You know, I have an iPhone,
like I have in Canada, but I'm

with one of our main telecom
providers here.

There's nothing that those
Businesses can really change

about the fact that social
engineering is a thing and

unfortunately, I think this is
actually going to get worse with

with kind of AI, voice training
and things like this, right.

But yeah, I would say, like
high-level points one, I think

we can do a good job at making
UX better.

I think part of that is starting
to happen, at least since 2021.

So there's some different
wallet options.

You know, people can kind of
experiment with different things

here.

The social engineering side is
harder to solve because it's a

human problem and humans are
hard, right, and it's just, it's

just difficult, and so I think,
yeah, a lot of that's gonna

come down to education, right.

But I know that that's kind of
a cop out answer because it's,

you know, most people Ignore
what they're told anyway, like

how many times you read the
instructions when you're buying

furniture or whatever.

It is right.

I mean, it's just again human
problems are human problems, and

it's just a challenge.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, totally in
it.

Yeah, that's it.

That's a fair answer, though I
mean because it's I don't really

know the answer either.

It's kind of on the same plane
where it's just, you know, I'm

I'm personally of the of the
type, and I think you are as

well.

It's like you know, like I will
, just I'm not gonna.

I don't even think we're that
unique.

Like humans learn by messing up
, you know, it's just like when

it comes to the idea of
sovereignty, like the, the

stakes are a little higher.

When it comes to like, say you,
you know, say this becomes like

the norm.

You know, and we're all trading
.

We all like spend money with
magical internet coins over fiat

.

It's self sovereignty.

You know, like what happens
when that's your life savings.

You know what I mean.

Like that, to me, that's that
is like the thing that scares

the shit out of me.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: So totally, I think
it's more the way that I would

think about it is.

It's more that having that as
an option For people who would

like to do that is interesting
and important to me, where

there's a good reason why people
like to have banks that are

Regulated by, you know, a
government and sort of

backstopped in the event that
something were to happen,

because they don't want to think
about it right.

Or there's a reason why people
might transact with visa because

I mean, at least in Canada,
it's like relatively generous.

If someone has actually
fraudulently used your card, you

know, you can get that money
back right.

Yeah, there's ways of being
cared for by these, these

entities that don't exist in
crypto, and so it kind of cuts

deeply in both ways.

There's an interesting case for
self sovereignty, like you don't

have to wait for ten days for
your bank to transfer money from

place a to place B and then you
know Canada has the highest

banking fees in the world.

Fun fact it's like an average
of, I think, over 250 bucks a

year the average person spends
on banking fees.

So there's just like this bloat
of the intermediary you know

this famous way that people talk
about crypto of, you know,

disintermediation.

There's a case for that, but
I'm totally sympathetic.

Like do I have all of my money
and personal assets in crypto?

Definitely not right, like you
want to hedge and be smart and

things like this, but having the
option is meaningful, I think,

and you know there's a lot of
things we can talk about about

that.

But I also know that you know
you might want to go somewhere

else here.

Speaker 1: Well, no, this is
it's.

I mean, we can maybe spend a
little bit more time on this,

because it is interesting that I
think, over the years, one

thing that I've grown to, I
think, be one of my favorite

aspects of crypto, one thing
I've just realized, is that it

represents the, the option.

It represents the power to
choose.

You know, there's not one way
to do things financially anymore

, you know, and I think that you
touch on that really well and

that, to me, is the most
interesting aspect.

But it also kind of helps, like
you know, clear up the

narrative of like, you know the
maximalist Maximism of like

having having too many eggs in
one basket, or having, you know,

too many things not hedged, or
you know it's not, that's just

never, that's just like never a
good thing.

I, regardless of whether it's in
financial markets or anything

else, like that just doesn't
seem cozy, it seems really risky

.

So I can really, I guess I can
really appreciate that and I

guess that the Part that this
segues into that I wanted to

talk about is I Like there are
so many people you know that I

have met in this industry and
like most of the time when I

speak with Canadians before,
whether I know they're Canadian

or not.

I'm just like Dan.

This is like fucking Chad
people like they are.

Is the, is the inflated, is the
bloated fees?

Is that one of the reasons why
Canadians are just so fucking

bullish on crypto?

Speaker 2: I'm not sure that
that's necessarily the reason.

I think you know I appreciate
the the high praise.

There's definitely some cool
Canadians and I don't know in

crypto.

You know a lot of the early
crypto scene.

You know Canada just figured
prominently in that.

I mean the italic is Canadian,
like a lot of the original, if

people kind of come around, come
out of the water loo.

You know computer science scene
and stuff like that.

So there's definitely a lot of
Canadians and I always

appreciate you know out, being
out on the conference circuit

and bumping into people that way
.

I think the case for people
being bullish here is probably

the same as the states, frankly,
more or less, where it's just

Saying like, okay, I want.

I mean, maybe it's just that
you're interested in new

technology, right, there's the
sort of fintech case here of hey

, this is maybe a more efficient
way of doing finance, or I mean

it doesn't.

It's not just limited to
finance, right, we've already

talked a little bit about the
the culture side to Whether it's

like art or gaming or whatever.

I think some of it from from my
perspective.

I mean this is just anecdotal
way.

The people that I happen to know
Is it's what you've said, right

, it's an option to Not have all
of your values stored in one

particular system.

That may have some issues,
right, like we, we've got

Question marks in how, in terms
of, like, how much money will be

printed over the next decade to
keep up with all sorts of

social obligations, and you know
, politics is is politics is a

complicated conversation,
obviously, right, yeah, I think,

in trying to keep it as neutral
as possible, I think there's a,

there's an interesting case and
people find it interesting to

be able to keep a piece of
whether it's a Little bit of

Bitcoin or a little bit of you,
through a little bit of whatever

else Outside of the bigger
system, so that you, you know,

don't necessarily need to submit
everything to money printing or

to inflationary Policy that you
may not agree with.

Yeah, I don't know, but people
are going to be interested for

tech reasons, for finance
reasons, for social reasons.

Like it's hard to Square,
square one whole country away

into into just like one answer.

Speaker 1: For sure, man, I mean
, but yeah, it's just I.

And even though there is a lot
of you know there, there is a

little you know high praise
happening there, like, but it's

there, there's a lot of truth in
it.

Like there's been a lot of a
lot of artists that have

interviewed as well, you know,
like victim of scare and Erin

McGee and you know and like you
know, fuck, like I have an

interviewed fuck render, but
he's, you know, he's Canadian as

well.

It's just like totally and like
there's a lot of us.

Yeah, yeah, for real, like it's.

It's like it was a bit of a
Social and emotional pamp, but

it's also there's a lot of truth
in it.

So now, talking about people
that'd be interested and people

that have options and people
submitting to a certain system,

we've, we've ripped about it
very like, or we've we've

bantered a little bit, very
lightly, on Twitter.

But you know, mama Roy, she is
a, she is a crypto trader.

What does she think about all
this?

Speaker 2: Yes, so for for some
context here, I got my mom into

NFTs in 2021.

You know, I initially, like
Kevin Rose, had a good podcast.

I think it was a modern finance
, yep yeah, and I think that

actually acted as an onboarding
point for a lot of folks.

Speaker 1: That was me, I'm for
sure.

Speaker 2: So my yeah, no, I'm,
yeah, it was just.

That was a good one.

And my mom has always been a
tech person and you know I was

running around it business for
my whole life and so has been

just like more open to new
things maybe than the average

parent on the tech side.

And so, you know, past that
podcast along and and proof was

just starting up and she
basically said, hey, like I

think I want to do this would,
would you be able to help me

figure this out?

So I bought her a proof pass
for Christmas, no way, and that,

whatever that year was I guess
two, two years ago now and yeah,

I mean she, she just like got
into the scene and started

collecting art and did a little
bit of trading and stuff, and

it's just very funny.

It's now kind of a shtick that
I have on Twitter where

Periodically my mom will email
me or text me or whatever and

it's like, is this real, that my
mom is actually worried about,

you know, having to stake this
NFT in this contract or whatever

, right, it's just like I know
it's like a very endearing

Experience and I think you know
more power to her right, I mean,

she's in her fifties trying to
figure out new technology and

yeah, all love.

Speaker 1: That's so cool, dude,
and that's really where there's

a through line in our impart of
her story, because While my

mom's not actively trading, my
mom does own both of our.

She did, she did full set,
collect our very first season

one Media pass to get all the
art Ah, let's go.

And she and she fronted the and
she bought herself a collector

pass for season two.

So she's getting all the art
from season two and it's like,

like, it's just really cool to
have those conversations and I

think it's proud.

I'm sure you can relate to this
, but like, I feel like having,

like a family member obviously
you know our mother's like

Getting to ask some of these
like really, really like

high-level questions, you know,
or just kind of like

understanding the concepts in
which they're used to and where

crypto differentiates that, or
like how they need to think

about it.

I also find that, like I, it's
a great barometer of like how

much I know what I'm talking
about.

When my mom asked me a question
because she always asked some

like really simple question,
like fuck, like I gotta like go

Six layers up.

You know it's always a
challenge, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2: No, I mean, there's
that like Richard Feynman thing

which is, you know, if you can't
explain something to a

five-year-old, you probably
don't understand it yourself.

Yeah, and I've always found
that humbling, right.

When you have these
conversations we're like, well,

what do plug, it's really even
do that's new, or you know why

is this even?

You know, I mean, you're
sitting down like I should

probably know the answer to this
and you know, I have my, my, my

attempts at this point.

But it's also just fun, right,
like it's cool to be able to

share.

You know, an industry that you
spend a lot of time working in,

obviously for many years with,
with a family member, right, and

so it's just entertaining that
you, my mom has a Twitter

account and periodically likes
my tweets.

It's just like hilarious.

That's hilarious to me.

I find that enjoyable, so it's
endearing for sure.

Speaker 1: I love that man.

That's really cool.

I always love seeing your
tweets when, when, when she

shares something with you or
y'all interact.

It's so fucking awesome man.

Um, yeah, dude.

So on the line of wholesome,
you know like you have arguably

one of my favorite squiggles as
your pfp, so you know squiggles

and punks.

You tweeted this out a little
bit ago.

Why?

Why are they just the most in
that in inevitable thing in NFTs

?

Speaker 2: Great question, man,
I think.

Well, first off, thank you for
for the the high praise of my

squiggle.

I like to think it is one of
the most special ones, but it's

just, yeah, happens to be one
that I kind of got early in that

process and so you become
attached to these things, right,

that's maybe the most bullish
case on NFTs is like you own

these Random items on the
internet and most people who may

not be familiar with, like or
have never owned an NFT before,

they kind of laugh at you right
where it's like huh, I can like

right click and save this
picture and then, once you own

something for a little while,
it's like hey, that that's mine.

They're like I don't want to
sell that, I don't want to get

rid of that.

So it's just like a human
nature thing, I think.

For for punks and squiggles
specifically, it's really just

thinking about how art markets
work and over time I mean

historically speaking, you know
there's gonna be different eras

of art and then in each era a
lot of the value tends to accrue

to just a few artists or a few
sort of symbols of a movement,

right, and so I think you know,
when you think about this idea

of digital objects and like,
basically, that we figured out

how to own items on the internet
.

Now, some of the first flag
bearers of that movement are

Crypto punks and Chromy
squiggles.

Right, crypto punks being kind
of, you know, probably in the

defining singular quote-unquote
first NFT yes, it's not

technically the first one.

You know all of our history
nerd friends will point out that

there are other ones, and you
know there's even some stuff

like rare Pepe's on Bitcoin and
whatnot.

But the interesting thing with
crypto punks in my, from my

perspective, is they're the
first project that really got

the whole Experience together,
in the sense that it's like hey,

we have these objects, these
little crypto punk profile

pictures.

We also have a marketplace
baked in where you can buy and

sell those.

We also have a community of
people who, you know, are

excited about this.

It's all of those things in one
that kind of made a lot of

people come in and say, aha,
this makes sense to me, right?

Nfts are going to be a thing,
whereas other experiences, you

know, remained more niche.

I think Chromy squiggles are
equally interesting, like

they're more.

They have a historic role.

They're kind of the first, one
of the first examples of

generative art that is on a
blockchain, and so this, this

marriage of generative art,
which is a discipline that's,

you know, been around since
computers have been around and

blockchains, is a way to now own
that generative art.

It's just a, you know, a match
made in heaven, and also it's

kind of become an emblem or like
a logo right of art blocks,

which is one of the best
stewards of, like, crypto

culture, of the NFT space, like
one of the most prominent

businesses around, and it's also
attached to, you know, snow,

for who is the artist that
created Chromy squiggles and

founded our blocks and, you know
, art also tends to Be very

connected to the artists
themselves and he's a great guy

and he's a great steward of all
these different things.

And I think, in some way, when
you're able to, you know, own a

squiggle, you are connected to
him and that business and the

culture all at the same time.

So, anyway, this is this is
long story short.

There's kind of different cases
for both punks and squiggles,

but I think, really, when you
zoom out and think like 50 years

from now, when people look back
on like the early, you know,

art on the internet type of
scene, of course, there's been

digital art that's been made for
a long time and galleries have

collected that and it's just
like a file Right.

They still have some value.

But I do think there's a net
new thing that happened here.

We can own items on the
internet using blockchains as

databases and those are kind of
the early standard bearers.

Speaker 1: Totally dude.

I yeah and it yeah.

Just to go back on the squiggle
I mean it's blues, blues, my

favorite color, and your, your
squiggles like, like also mine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it always has been, you know
, like it always has been and,

uh, it just, yeah, it's just a
fantastic looking squiggle and,

admittedly, like I really like
your the way you kind of sum

that up, because, yeah, it's a
punks weren't technically the

first you know NFT project ever
exists on the blockchain, but it

was the first one where
community got like really

gathered around it in a
meaningful way.

Speaker 2: Um, you know hearing
well, like yeah, another thing,

sorry to jump in, I just forgot
to say like they're the first

people to kind of define that
10k Size and the idea of

different traits and
randomization.

So it's not, it's like it's
totally what you're just saying,

like it's the community, um,
that forms around it.

But I think a lot of those
design choices are the reason

why a community is form grounded
in the first place, right where

it's like hey, I want to
collect different types of these

things or whatever.

Right, so yeah, but sorry to
start interrupting.

Speaker 1: No, you're good dude.

No, it's a great interruption
and it's like because you look

at any, not not just the size of
of of NFT or collectible

projects or community projects,
but down to the traits.

You know, like 3d glasses are
inherently, you know, crypto

punks like zombies.

Yeah, like every single trait
about crypto punks is emulated

in every other project, whether
people realize it or not, and I

think it's just something really
special.

Um, so, yeah, I do.

I think it's a great idea.

Uh, yeah, one day for sure, do
you own any punks?

Speaker 2: I own one punk from
back in the day.

I had the good fortune of being
able to show up in that scene

back before they were really
expensive, and so it was

exciting to be able to collect
one and own one, and I hope I'll

be in the position where I can
keep that and not have to sell

financially just to have been
around.

I wrote a actually I mean it
might be a good segue back to

the writing conversation.

Yeah, back near the beginning
of that that boom, I wrote an

essay called the Fat Cryptopunks
Thesis, which just kind of laid

out a bit of a roadmap for why
I think punks are interesting,

and it's influenced by a lot of
other people.

It's by no means just like my
individual thinking, but yeah,

right around that time I just
got really interested in crypto

punks and thought they would be
cool and got to buy one.

So, yeah, I still have mine.

I'm along with my squiggle.

Those are probably my two most
prized assets.

Speaker 1: I would imagine, dude
for sure, they're definitely on

the top of my bucket list to
own.

So, yeah, but I think this is a
great segue into the writing

you know, because that you know
on your, on your beehive, like

that is like your first article.

You know that you wrote yeah,
at least that I see here.

So we love to kind of, yeah,
maybe, maybe, like finally get

to that topic.

We went through a lot of
different other rabbit holes of

you know, I guess, really the
impact that writing has had on

you, or you know, or why you
feel compelled to do that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

So I think I guess I'll do the
pre crypto part first and then

we can get into some of this
more crypto writing.

I so I've always been a reader.

I just grew up, and very early
I mean.

So my parents were divorced
when I was quite young.

I grew up, you know, in between
houses.

Like one of the most consistent
through lines for me was both

like a lot of books and a lot of
video games, and so in many

ways, I kind of see who I am as
an adult today as like deeply

informed by both of those things
.

I still read, you know, like 40
books a year probably.

It's just like a big piece of
who I am, and that can be

fiction.

It doesn't have to be like
fancy, nerdy books necessarily,

though there are many of those
too.

It's more just like.

This has always been a thing,
and I kind of track that to.

You know, I actually have a
memory of being like seven years

old, you know, in elementary
school, and you know I grew up

single mom for the most part.

You know she's working two jobs
.

I'm, whatever in public school
doing my thing, like we were

fine but not well off, and she
basically said look anytime you

want to buy a book, I will pay
for that, no matter what like no

cap, as we would say to them.

Right, and it's like, yeah,
hilarious and hindsight to think

about that, but also incredibly
meaningful, because at the time

it's not like you're reading
anything fancy.

It's not like I was, I wasn't
like a super smart kid or

anything.

It's more like, hey, I want to
read fiction stuff, like I want

to read all these whatever
detective books, whatever.

But my mom always made a point
of saying I will, if it's a book

, I will buy that for you.

I will figure out how to make
that happen.

And I feel like, for that
reason, I've always been sort of

shaped by you know writing and
have wanted to be a writer as

well.

I think that sort of comes it's
like a good one to punch right,

like people who like to read
also tend to like to write, and

so, yeah, it's not really like I
I wouldn't say I had to.

I was like that special of a
writer or anything.

But I always just thought, hey,
like I like this stuff, I

always thought I might be a
journalist one day, through kind

of elementary school and high
school, and started to take it

more seriously in high school so
I started to write more.

You know, you get the whole
like student newspaper situation

.

Yeah, yeah, take some extra
writing courses like new media

stuff, whatever, and then yeah,
anyway, so that's that's a

little bit of the backstory
personally.

And then in crypto specifically
, like I've written quite a bit

over the last I guess three
years now and have a newsletter

now for kind of the latter part
of that, where I try and write a

short piece every month and
specifically at this

intersection of crypto and
culture.

So a lot of stuff about NFTs
and gaming and art and a lot of

what we've talked about today
honestly.

And yeah, I mean we can geek
out a little bit about about

that if you'd like to.

But the main kind of TLDR there
is.

I've tried to learn how to write
for the internet specifically

from first principles, and what
I mean by that is like most

writing writing is difficult for
everybody.

Yeah, even though you know
everyone writes, most of it is

not super high quality.

Like I get bored reading my own
writing all the time You're

like, oh my God, who wants this
over?

Like these sentences are so bad
, like the paragraph doesn't

even make any sense.

You know you zone out like most
people just don't read anymore,

and I don't like.

Some of that is an attention
span thing, but some of it is

also just like the quality of
writing is it's hard to make

that compete with, like the
quality of a video game or the

quality of like this podcast,
right, it's more likely that

people end up doing audio or
visual stuff, and so to write

like compelling stuff for the
internet, you need to just

really keep it tight.

It needs to be short, like
every word matters.

You're curating an
entertainment experience for

people who are just like
attention junkies, basically,

right, and so if you want to
compete, you need to, you know,

make a very like high effort.

Yeah, you just have to make
stuff high effort.

So, anyway, that's a little bit
of the backstory there and how

I think about what I'm trying to
do anyway, on the newsletter

side.

Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you
touched on a point that I was

going to ask you a little bit
more about, which is like,

specifically on the internet,
like I mean, even with your last

article I tweeted it the other
day like the episodic nature of

human attention makes it really
hard to sustain communities over

time, and you could apply that
to write it.

You know that, for whatever
reason I still don't know why

they just stuck out, but I think
it was the word episodic.

It's just a great descriptive
to how kind of like, just fucked

we are.

I'm glad our attention spans
are, you know.

So, yeah, no, I can really
appreciate that and, as someone,

and what you said there makes a
lot of sense because I think,

in first and foremost, just to
go back to your backstory, like

I, you know, I love that Like
shout out to your mom like, for

that is that is so fucking cool.

That really was when you said,
when you said that, like you

just love hearing stories like
that, and you know, similarly,

my mom, you know, would take me
out of school to go see Lord of

the Rings in elementary school,
just because, just go, you know.

And she was like, and I would
always ask her why.

And she's like you know like
what is perfect attendance to

teach you in the real world.

And I was like you got a point.

Speaker 2: That's a good point
yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, she's like you
know, like go to go to school

Good, good grades, Pay attention
, but like perfect attendance

doesn't teach you shit in the
real world.

So we could.

She also read the books.

You know, speaking of a reader,
she read all the books in

college and so it was a very
much of a like we, as it was a

cultural part of my childhood
that we just very much were

aligned on and still are.

You know it's.

It was really cool to have that
moment.

So, yeah, shout out to shout
out to the moms doing the Lord's

work here.

Speaker 2: Big shout out to the
moms.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but but
something that you, that you

mentioned there is, is one of
the reasons why I gravitated

away from reading is because,
you know, I used to read a lot

as a kid and but once video
games came out, that was just

priority over everything.

It's like there's no way I'm
going to fucking read a book

after this, you know.

So it just it caught me.

But also there, you know, and
you can probably appreciate this

is that gaming was really the
first community that I felt like

I was a part of.

You know, like with the, with
the broadband internet rollout.

That was like you know, I was
on the swim team growing up, but

gaming was like, oh man, this
is the shit I want to talk about

at the lunch table at school,
but always feel like I'm going

to get laughed out of the room.

You know what I mean?

Um, totally.

So I think there was a, there
was an extra role there.

It was like I was just kind of
seeking that, that tribe, if you

will, you know.

So, um, but as an, as someone
who doesn't read a whole lot and

who is actively making efforts
through audio books, through

Kindle readers, through, you
know, whatever opportunity or

resource is available.

Like it's.

It's really cool to be able to,
to read something that's so

succinct and, like you said,
every word matters, um, and I

think that's something really
important that I'd like to leave

people with um on that topic.

So, uh, yeah, dude, shout out,
shout out to you man.

So we've talked a lot about
digital things, um, and I, and I

will say most of this has been,
like you know, based off of my

observations from you, but I did
do a little cheating on this

podcast and I and I hit up Fungi
.

Um, just if there was a topic
that you would love to talk

about that most people may not
know, and he mentioned pottery,

so I'd love to double click on
that a little bit and learn

about what your past yeah Is
hilarious, all right.

Speaker 2: So the backstory here
is I did four years of pottery

in high school and actually got
into art school for pottery and

sculpture, um, before like
shifting more into the sort of

politics and economics career
path that I was mentioning

earlier.

And yeah, I mean it's a big
part of who I am in the sense

that, like, if you zoom out and
think, well, why am I doing

accelerated art?

And it's like art nonprofit, uh
, some of it is, yeah for sure,

curiosity in this NFT scene and
seeing some energy there and

it's meaningful in a small way.

Like I mean, we're a small
player at the end of the day,

but to be able to help some
emerging artists is like it's

just cool.

I like that stuff, but part of
it is like forever.

Since you know, I was young,
I've just liked art, like I've

liked artists, I've enjoyed
being around that kind of thing

and I feel like, as someone who
spends a lot of time

interviewing artists, I would
imagine you would resonate with

that too.

Yeah, um, there's just
something interesting about arts

and culture and, yeah, like
this whole, this whole area.

So, yeah, I did, I did a lot of
pottery.

I also just had a bunch of
health issues in high school

where I wasn't able to do a lot
of sport and stuff, which, um,

growing up, was a big part of my
life and so in lieu of that, I

ended up doing a lot of art.

So it was effectively like a
bunch of school, a bunch of art,

a bunch of gaming and a bunch
of reading.

That's like essentially my life
for for many years.

Um, and, yeah, I had a good
kind of crew of people that did

pottery stuff.

I mean, like I'm I know this
isn't visually recorded, but I'm

like looking at a couple pots
that I made in high school right

now like big pauses and stuff.

Um, so it's yeah, it was a lot
of fun.

I think it's more just
interesting when you're young to

try and facilitate some
creative endeavor right, it just

helps you think about the world
differently than you know, like

you're going to economics class
or math class or whatever it is

, and that's great.

Um, you learn some mental
models and some things there.

That's helpful.

But if I'm thinking about
pottery, it's like okay, how do

I create something from nothing?

Like, how do you, what do you
do when half of your stuff

breaks along the process, from
the wheel to the kiln to the

glazing, all that stuff.

What's project management?

Right?

When you're like 15, you don't
know what, anything about

project management, um.

But also, if you want to sit
there and be like, well, I want

to make a hundred mugs, so how
the hell are we going to do that

?

You just sit down and be like,
well, I guess this is the game

plan, right.

And so I look back at that and
just think, you know, there's a

lot of adjacent lessons that I
still as much as I'm not, you

know, super active making pots
anymore um, a bunch of adjacent

lessons that I'm really thankful
for.

So, yeah, it informs a little
bit of who I am on the arts and

culture side.

But also, just like it's cool,
I like art stuff and you learn

relevant lessons there.

Speaker 1: And yeah, I'll spam
you some, uh, some pottery

images offline after this,
please, please man, no, dude, I

really love that and I'm and I'm
so glad I asked, uh, I'm so

glad I asked about that because,
um, you know it's, it's

something really like as a kid I
used to, uh I used to just be

infatuated with, like museums,
like I used to love going to

museums, you know, and I would
just spend a lot.

My mom would always take me, I
would just spend a lot of time

looking at shit.

I had no idea what I liked
about it, I just knew I liked

being around art, you know, as a
, as a, as a wee lad, you know,

um, so yeah, dude, it's and, and
what, for some reason, and it's

just to like riff on your story
here, man, it's.

I feel like you know you're
obviously in the same generation

as I am, but there just always
seems to there was this

disconnect of like okay, art's
really cool, but we, it was

still under that narrative of
like yeah, but like it's not

really, it's not really
sustainable for a career, you

know, or like you should
probably not focus on that too

much.

So I would say for me
personally, I, I took a left

turn from that, you know, uh,
just, and it wasn't until I

found the space where I realized
, like how much I missed that

and how much that was buried
down, and I was like, fuck, this

is like, this, was it all along
, you know, but you had to

follow a different.

Yeah, totally, um, totally, but
, dude, yeah, I would love to

see the pottery.

And last last kind of questions
.

We, you know, wrap it up here.

This is a.

Maybe we can just do a, you
know, some short thoughts on

this, because this is something
that I'm really interested in

personally, um, having bought a
few of like the avant-art prints

that like have some NFT
counterparts and like lining up

with the pottery thing as well.

This is what made me think
about that.

Um, digital objects linking to
physical, physical objects.

When it comes to art, um, how
do you think about that, or what

are some of the ways you think
about that?

So you question man.

Speaker 2: I think, um, there
are some smart people who are

working on this problem.

There are a couple of companies
that kind of have explored this

and you get the whole like QR
codes, linkage and things like

this.

I think we'll probably see some
version of the art world adopt

like ownership standards around
NFTs, because it's just easier

to transfer like digital, uh a
digital counterparts to a

physical one Um for like
administrative purposes.

Uh, I think my sense, generally
speaking, is I am more bullish

on digitally native digital art
Um versus like a digital

physical connection, because
it's just like you have a much

more intuitive way of owning an
internet object on the internet

than trying to worry about a
painting Um, that's like tracked

in an accounting ledger sort of
fashion on a blockchain Um.

So to me, I think, like I guess
the two answers are well,

definitely see that.

I think people will do that.

I think there already are some
artists who you know work

physically Um, I mean, thank you
.

X is probably someone that
comes to mind.

I don't know if Jen Stark has
done anything at that

intersection.

Um, there are obviously a lot of
people who do physical art.

I love physical art.

I think there's a lot of value
in physical art.

I just think it's hard to marry
physical and digital um beyond,

sort of in a tracking fashion
where digitally native Objects

just make sense to me, right,
where it's like it just seems to

be, I don't know, maybe the
saute, I don't know.

I'm just more bullish on
digital first things because

it's it's like of its
environment, if that makes sense

, um, and so, yeah, I think
we'll see that.

I think, like you know, it's a
good additional way for people

who create digital art to extend
their communities.

Um, you know, I have physical
stuff from Snowfro, from Grant

Yon, from Jack Butcher, like I
like this, this, the sort of

Prince side of the space, um,
but it's, yeah, it's harder for

me to think like, okay, there's
something especially valuable

here because this physical thing
is connected to a digital thing

, where the digital first piece,
um, maybe just like a internet

native dude um makes, makes more
sense to me.

Speaker 1: I like that.

I like your takes on that.

I, it's very like it's valid,
uh, and I think about it in a

similar way.

Um, I think really where, where
I'd add to what you said is you

know there's something like the
one area that physicals, you

know there is something just
different is that there is

something that's very like
tactile about it.

You know you can like see the
different printing techniques,

you can see a lot of the ways
like that.

Just it shows differently in a
frame.

You can get a floating frame,
you get a map.

You can do a lot of cool things
with it.

My, my, the challenge right now
and maybe this is gonna be one

of those things where we just
don't have it for years and then

all of a sudden, the technology
just like goes fucking turbo

crazy and we get some of the
best screens from the most

accessible prices.

Because that's my thing is that
, like, when can we get Similar

type of attributes, or what are
the attributes that would make

owning something or having a
digital frame Be really unique?

Because, like, there hasn't
really been something insanely

compelling where it's like
that's what I'd want to buy and

I just miss.

I just don't like, I can
appreciate like and I for to a

very like strong degree, like,
like, having it like the digital

object is like it may just
makes too much sense and it just

belongs digitally.

You know, I can really respect
that tape because I agree with

the two, but it's just like I
also want to see it on a bigger.

I just want to see another
bigger frame.

I feel like the phone is just
like dog.

Speaker 2: Listen, like I think
we're gonna get there.

I don't think we're there yet.

Yeah, I think there's a couple
thoughts.

One is you start to I mean, you
hope that we'll start to see

better screens or more
interesting you know experiences

in the physical world where you
can have a portal to the

digital one and see that work.

Yeah, I do think like that.

That future will be coming soon
.

I think Rafiq and all stuff in
the MoMA is an interesting

example.

Like people were really
captivated by that right.

Yeah, I'm being extended as an
exhibition.

There's something that's like
at a high professional level,

you can start to get screens
that are meaningful and, you

know, are able to show cool art.

I don't think personally, we've
really reached that, that level

, or not in an affordable way
anyway, but yeah, I think we're

gonna see some progress there.

I think, as digital
environments themselves become

more like interesting and
immersive and populated,

something like you know, apple's
headset coming out next year

yeah, I wonder if you know that
starts to contribute to People

just sort of having aha moments
around.

Okay, like these digital things
make sense.

And yeah, I'm also like, like
I've said, like really bullish

on physical art.

I like and that's not even
meant to be an economic

statement.

It's just like what you said.

It's sometimes it's just
interesting.

There's texture, there's so
much going on.

I just my one point of
skepticism is more like the

linkage piece In terms of like.

Okay, I just say I have this
great painting.

I mean, many of my close
friends from growing up went to

art school, like art designers,
artists and things, and I have

some of their physical work.

Like I'm looking at a painting
from this girl from 2014 and

it's like that's, that's great,
I like, I like it.

It's fun to be able to own it.

What's the point of having an
NFT as a part of that?

Beyond the sort of
administrative side of okay,

well, once I've sold this thing,
I can give you that, that

ownership record, right, I don't
know, maybe there's a case here

, maybe I'm totally missing
something and that's very, very

possible, but to me it's more
like that's interesting from a

technical side, but from a
culture making side, I'm much

more interested in my digital
first things and and that, yeah,

that's just maybe my bias at
the moment, but totally.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's,
yeah, it's, it's.

It is an interesting spot to be
in and I'll just share a little

bit On the two prints that I
bought.

You know, cuz like you're,
you're absolutely right that you

know I bought the ringer print.

You know the the lack of
iterations print.

Oh yeah, there was my dude also
.

I I was talking to Fungi and I
remember getting the email and I

was like I'm probably not gonna
get it.

You know, it's just like it's
cool, like it's lackma, like we

like we, you know, as a company
We've supported lackma and

hosted a few spaces and got some
great art from like Lady

Cactoid in that crew.

And so I was like you know,
like it'd be cool.

You know it'd be cool but it's
not really compelling.

And I kept reading in the
emails like, oh, they got an NFT

component and I'm like, ah, I
mean that's cool, like you got

me a little bit there, but like
it's still not interesting

enough.

And then once I saw it in
person, it was just like I

looked at it, I was like dog, I
just fucking caved.

You know, like I just caved and
.

But.

But with the ringer print, like
visually, it looks really cool

and I bought it purely as a
conversation starter.

You know, I feel like that's a
really interesting thing to have

in the home to have a
conversation about

gender-to-part.

Yeah, totally, you know, and
it's like the but the

interesting, the part that to
your point, is the NFTs in 1155.

So it's like you, one could
argue that it's utterly useless.

You know, when it comes to it's
like cuz, like it's like where's

the value?

Like the value isn't in the
digital object.

At that point the value is the
physical.

And it's almost like they kind
of just said like hey, here's

the NFT, just because we can do
it, and it's kind of cool, and

we don't really know what we're
doing.

Which respect, respect, I mean,
no one knows what the fuck

they're doing.

Speaker 2: Like they're like I
like that they're trying it out

you know, I think like that's a
really good way to articulate

the what I was trying to say
earlier, which is just like

Physical art is great, like you
can do a lot of cool things,

like the culture making process
there is meaningful obviously

we've done thousands of years of
physical art it's more just the

tenuous nature of like.

Why does this thing have to be
connected to an NFT?

And that's more what I mean
when I say like I'm more bullish

on digital culture.

I mean that through the lens of
like why NFTs actually matter?

Right, because it's just
digital property rights.

But yeah, it sounds like we're
both saying the same thing, so

I'm yeah totally did.

Speaker 1: Yeah, just kind of.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

But that also brings me to the
punk print.

You know they're, while punks
are like Ridiculously digital,

like they're, they're like very
it's, it's a you know there's

very is a strong cultural.

You know they're, they're, yeah
, they're the leaders of

cultures.

What I'm trying to say my brain
got a little mushy there, but

but it is interesting to have
something that is digital,

digitally native.

It's something that's been so
impactful to have pushed the

digital space forward.

Having all of those be
represented in a physical object

Is interesting, in my opinion,
and it's like having punks kind

of live outside of their realm
to like say like hey, this is

like what started a cultural
movement.

You know, on the blockchain
pictures on the internet, having

a picture of those physically
say like, yeah, that was the,

this is, this is what started,
this is what started it all.

You know it's kind of
interesting.

It's it's fun and interesting
to be able to take them out.

But with that one, there is a
scratch-off code to where it

links it to a 721, where it's
like, okay, that is kind of cool

.

You know it's like that's yeah,
that it.

That is neat.

You know, now I don't know what
I'll do with it.

I still, as a collector, don't
really know where I'll.

I'll stand like where the value
really lies after that, but

Nonetheless we we fuck around
and find out.

Speaker 2: Is the?

Is that absolutely?

Yeah, that is the way, that is
the way.

Speaker 1: Well cool man.

In the spirit of doing that
dude, I feel like we've gone

just about across every vertical
man.

This has been an exciting chat
dude, so one of want to start

wrapping things up and just kind
of Put the focus back on a

little bit something that you're
working on long-term.

Is there any long-term projects
that you're currently working

on right now?

Speaker 2: Yeah, great question,
I think, why I should say first

, thanks so much for having me
on.

It's been super fun to be able
to go through all these

different like crypto related
topics.

I Think.

A couple things first.

Definitely, you know, accelerate
art is, when I think about the

things that I'm doing, something
that I feel pretty convicted

will exist five years from now,
which, in a space that moves

pretty quickly, feels like a
decade.

You know what I mean.

I think it's cool to be able to
do, even if it's very light

touch and just a few things a
year, like just to have a

gathering point for people who
like to work in digital art and

we're interested in exploring
NFTs and To create some

community around that.

I think that's meaningful and,
yeah, so I'm.

In terms of long-term projects,
I think that's definitely one

of them.

My writing stuff, I think, is
something I'm committed to long

term and trying to figure out
how to consistently just yeah, I

offer, hopefully, something of
interest and value around this

particular niche, like some of
the crypto and culture

intersection.

I Think there's a few companies
I've, you know, had the chance

to work with over the last
couple of years that I Think

have a long-term future and that
kind of cross cuts a lot

Through, like the conversation
that we've had.

Right, there's some Dow stuff,
there's some gaming stuff,

there's some arts and culture
stuff and, you know, hoping that

those, those companies persist
and, like both, maybe accomplish

some of that in the
conversation that we were having

earlier and getting crypto
people excited but also somehow

have some of that, you know,
more mainstream adoption moment

and would be exciting and, yeah,
we'll see where things go off

ultimately.

Yeah, off the top of my head,
those would be the three.

I like it, man.

Speaker 1: It's cool to it's
cool to have a Kind of have a

hand and a few different baskets
there.

So it's cool, man.

Dude, thank you for yeah,
thanks for thanks for showing me

your Thank you for yeah, thanks
for thanks for sharing that and

, again, it's exciting to be
able to be a part of your

journey and be able to, like,
watch you do this.

It's uh, it's, yeah, it's great
Love and also just selfishly

loving the spaces that you're
hosting with fungy every Tuesday

.

Speaker 2: Those are Um, those
are so much fun.

Yeah, thanks so much man.

Yeah, a lot of fun.

It's been fun hanging with the
whole Schiller crew.

Um, excited to see, like for
the next year, how this goes.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, for sure,
um, one, uh.

Oh, this is something that I'm
experimenting with and I came

off off the top just now when
you were speaking about kind of

what you're thinking about long
term.

Um, a little bit.

You know, I know we love to
laugh and joke and shitposts and

and and stuff like that, but
there's also, uh, with a lot of

people that have a sense of
humor here Do their best to not

take themselves so seriously Um,
there's usually something

really just definite, there's
just something really strong

that that kind of moves.

That kind of moves everyone
here, uh, to build such cool

things and just to have the have
the fix, get to participate in

such a volatile, uh, industry.

So we'd love to kind of circle
it back to you, like if you

could look at your legacy or
like what you like, if someone

was like, looking back on your
life, um, what would you want

your legacy to be?

Or like, how would you define
that just in a few words?

Speaker 2: It's a big question,
man.

I think, um, it's a good, it's
a good thing.

I was just thinking there's a
book by David Brooks, the New

York Times columnist.

Um, it kind of talks about
eulogy virtues versus resume

virtues, right, like this idea,
what would you want to be known

for At the grave?

Versus, like, what are you
trying to hustle for in kind of

the day-to-day status games that
we play?

Um, I think, yeah, when I think
about it, I mean aspirationally

, who knows, like, do I even
have a legacy?

Tbd, right.

But in the spirit of answering
the question, I think I would

like to be known for someone who
built community, like someone

who facilitated belonging for
different people, who Helped,

you know, other people gather
around things that they were

interested in.

I think a lot of what I do with
the art stuff and accelerated

art and working with founders
individually, and just like the

different kind of responsible
Responsibilities I have or hats

I wear in the space, a lot of it
just comes down to that.

It's like community design,
right?

So can you build relationships
with people, um, can you help

them feel seen and known and,
you know, help them thrive in

some way?

Like, what can I do to help
other people win Um, because I

think, yeah, so much of where I
find Uh, both like personal

meaning, but also just like
where I find I thrive is when I

am more in that like coach or
Advisor position right, we were

able to just like be on the
sidelines and help other people

win Um.

And so I think, yeah, some
that's a bit of a hand wavy

answer, but some level of like
community builder Uh would would

be an interesting legacy to
leave behind.

Speaker 1: If I could, I'll
never not laugh when you say

hand wavy, uh, in front of
anything.

Speaker 2: I forgot about that.

Speaker 1: I just absolutely
love that.

I never heard it before you, uh
, and I'll just never not laugh

at it.

Um, it's just something so
inherently fucking Ben Roy.

So, um, we'll cool, man, uh, if
, if you want someone to, uh, if

someone's looking to find a
little bit more information

about you, where would you want
people to go first?

Speaker 2: Yeah, great.

Um, so I think twitter, I'm at
ben roi, double underscore Um,

I'm far too active there, so if
you want to follow me there, um,

I'm definitely around.

Uh, I am it.

My my newsletter is ben
roibeehivecom, and so if you

want to, you know, follow along
on the writing side.

Uh, there's definitely that
stuff too, and those would be

kind of the two main um spots.

Speaker 1: Thank, I love it,
dude.

Yeah, you definitely we.

We all spend a little too much
time on on on the twitter x app,

the terminally terminally
online problems.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, thanks.

Thanks so much for having me on
.

It's been a lot of fun just to
be able to chat about all these

different things.

I uh, I hope some of that's
useful and, yeah, I appreciate

you appreciate all this work
that you're putting into, kind

of helping curate a lot of
conversations with fun people

across crypto.

So more power to you.

Speaker 1: Means a lot, dude.

Yeah, let.

Likewise, it was fun to be able
to riff on a lot of different

things.

Uh, it's it was.

You know, it's fun to just to
kind of understand, again, poke

my head up to what else is
happening around here.

So, um, yeah, dude, thanks for
thanks for your time, thanks for

making this happen, thanks for
your uh, thanks for the the

banter back and forth.

This has been a, this has been
a treat, dude.

So, um, just hang out with me
for a little bit once I, once we

stop recording.

So this finishes upload,
uploading.

But, um, yeah, man, thanks
again for coming on.

Hope you have a great rest of
your day.

Speaker 2: Awesome man, you too
Take care.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Schiller

curated podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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Until next time, this is Boona
signing off.