Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to Vaulted, a

Web3 podcast series from the
Shuler Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on April 18, 2022 and

features Anjali, Young,
co-founder of Collabland.

In this episode, we discussed
the origin story and inspiration

behind building Collabland, the
challenges of balancing work

and personal life in Web3, the
importance of data ownership and

much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest, my own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this combo

with Anjali.

All right, and I didn't ask you
this before.

Gm, how do you pronounce your
name?

Speaker 2: Thank you for asking
previous to starting and talking

.

It's Anjali Anjali.

Like the A in Adele or the A in
America.

In the past I've said the A
like America and people will

just call me America.

So now I've started saying like
the A, like in Adele, it's

Anjali Anjali.

Speaker 1: Young Okay.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: I like it, I know,
but I didn't want to call you

young.

I didn't like that, like, just
like your last name, like I

didn't want to call you just
young.

Anjali GM, how are you?

Speaker 2: Good to be here.

Speaker 1: It is.

It is, I heard.

Speaker 2: You met at South by
and I just was really charmed by

you, so I was excited that you
invited me for this conversation

.

Speaker 1: I, you know that was
one of my.

That was like it was with.

You were on also with Justin
Taylor and and Buster, and that

was, yes, that was a really fun
panel.

And you, you know, like, when
you were up there, I'm like, oh

my God, I've never known, I've
never been able to put a face to

you know the project that
you're involved in or the

company that you're involved in,
and so I'm like, oh cool, this

is like this person plays a very
, very, very important role and

she's got a lot of good things
to say.

Let's go have a conversation
like some more, because I think

this is going to be a blast.

And so I didn't, I didn't spoil
it, but I want to let you tell

everyone you know a little about
you.

Like, who are you?

What do you do?

Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm
Anjali Young, I am co-founder

and chief community officer for
a bridge, and we are the makers

of Collabland.

Speaker 1: Love it.

You, you again, you guys play a
massive, massive role in in

this Web three community.

And so, let's, let's wind it
back a little bit though,

because I want to know, you know
, because I'm always curious for

the people especially that are
building these foundational

tools, I want to, I like knowing
a little bit about what got you

here.

So, like, whatever comes to
mind, let's run with that.

Speaker 2: Yes, I love talking
about what got us here, because

we're in a position where people
are asking us how we got here,

and so, as you're getting there,
it's even being here.

It's a grind, it's work.

It's just constantly just in
the dark doing the work, and so

the fact that you're asking me
how I got here makes me feel

great.

Speaker 1: Yes, okay, yes.

Speaker 2: Like everybody else,
maybe every other project that's

been around for a while, there
were a lot of dark days.

We started in 2018 as no code
tooling, so at that time there

were there were no people in
crypto like casual people in

crypto, people that were just
hanging out and wanting to talk

about it.

That just wasn't a thing.

It was just literally the
people who were believers that

this may someday be a thing.

We may not even see it in our
lifetime, but we want to be a

part of it.

That was the movement at that
time.

So my husband he's a developer,
now CEO of the company.

He developed this technology
for no code tooling.

So he said why don't we bring
people developers that are not

in crypto now, instead of them
having to learn about our ways?

They can use our no code tools
and they can build apps?

The way we think about it now is
, like you know, building, like

the infrastructure of a town or
a city, like you need buildings,

you need the houses so people
can move in.

So we're like, okay, let's do
this no code tooling.

So then maybe people will start
building these houses and then

we'll start getting some
residents.

However, because there's nobody
interested in it, nobody

talking about bear market.

Bear market I don't even know
what bear market really means,

but bear market.

So there's not any buzz,
there's no hype, there's no

interest, there's nothing.

So we couldn't get any traction
that way.

Nobody wanted to come over and
start building tools for crypto.

When why?

Speaker 1: Nothing was there.

Yeah, why exactly?

Speaker 2: Yeah, and you have to
like believe that people will

come, because this is the
superior technology.

This is the way you have to
have believed that in order to

try to start to move at all
right to be building.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: So that's the tooling
that was starting in 2018.

And then, you know, no VC money
, nobody interested, nothing

like just trying to scrap
together, of course, passionate

group of people who are all very
, very tight and close.

Now, the loyalty of the people
that were there at that time, it

exists and it's a beautiful
thing to witness.

But, you know, it was just kind
of just chugging along Then in

spring of 2020, that's when
COVID COVID happened, right.

Speaker 1: Weird as ugly head,
yep, yep.

Speaker 2: And so we started a
DAO called the Collab 19 DAO,

and that DAO was to bring
together people to get money

together and then read your
stupid out to victims of COVID.

And victims of COVID was a real
thing.

Then you know now we're seeing
two years later and you had

COVID.

I got COVID like just going to
a conference.

We knew we were going to get it
.

We did it anyway.

Speaker 1: It was a different
time.

Speaker 2: It was a different
time, and so then it's like how

do we get all the people who
have shares in this DAO together

to discuss the proposals
beforehand?

Got it Okay, and so we started
off, collabland was just a DAO

tool.

It was to get everybody that's
in a DAO together in a chat

together so you can talk about
proposals, you can do some

flipping, you can, you know,
have your influence, and then

you go and vote on the blog
chain so it's like updates for

for DAOs Anyway.

So that was like the first use
case and once other DAOs started

seeing it, you know every at
that time the DAO communities

were pretty small and super
small because they're not that

big now and so I can.

Speaker 1: When you say small,
I'm just like wow that people

all the same everywhere yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.

This is a cool tool.

I'm going to use it for my DAO
and I'm going to use it for my

day.

So then of course, dao wasn't
the same thing that DAO is now,

but at that time it that was the
first like I'm not going to say

product market fit, because
there wasn't much of a market,

but that was the first like
spark.

That's what captured the
imagination of these DAOs, like,

oh, we can do this and we can
get together with these people.

And now this person isn't just
zero X, one, five, nine, three,

eight, like that's that's Kyle,
and oh, and now I, you know.

So anyways, started off on
telegram.

That's where Collablin started
on telegram, and then, after

DAOs, investment groups started
using it like Unilevel Karma DAO

, like there were different
super interesting groups that

started for deal flow, so it was
like oh, if you own these

tokens, you can get into this
telegram group and now we're

going to talk together about
what the other deals that are

going on Like.

Now you have NFT alpha groups
right, right, right, right, and

it was like that's what we call
in really NFT alpha groups,

their deal flow right, we can
call them deal flow on some

level right, and so that was
deal flow.

It became like a deal flow, a
way to get access to deal flow.

And then after that, social
tokens Alex, mads, mads I don't

know if you know him you should
know him.

He's wonderful.

He started a social token
called Alex where you could buy

the token and then you're kind
of funding his move from Europe

to America to start a web three
company.

He has a web three company now
called Showtime.

Speaker 1: I know Showtime Yep,
yep yeah.

Speaker 2: So that's Alex, and
so he used Collablin for his

people who had the Alex token.

So that was kind of the first
social token application and

then after that, other social
tokens started using it friends

with benefits, you know
different communities like that.

This is still before NFTs.

Nfts were still well, social
tokens okay, like maybe that's

going to be, that's what's going
to bring more people in social

tokens, like that was kind of
the thought process for that

period of time before the whole
NFT tidal wave.

I don't know, avalanche, I don't
know what you call it Anyway

and then in the spring of 20, oh
, okay, so, sorry, so where was

I?

Oh, so, in January of 2021, we
got funding, we got a seed

series, or a series seed in
January of 2021.

And that was awesome.

After that, it was okay, we're
going to be able to like, really

do this, like this can be a
real company, like you're going

to get a paycheck and then we're
going to be able to hire people

and we're going to be able to
really grow this.

And how are we going to grow
this?

What are we going to do?

Before NFTs, the idea was still
to do Dow tooling, because even

though it's oh sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1: You know it's really
wild, though Like I'm going to

take a pause here January 2021,.

I cannot think of a better time
to get funding, because you

probably had no idea what was
coming.

That was like two months before
the people sale.

It was like three to four
months before the board aids.

I mean, cryptopunks were still
there, but it was a very.

They hadn't exploded.

They were rising but it hadn't
hit that meteoric rise that it

hit.

I just had to, like that came
up as you were talking.

I'm like you guys had no
fucking clue Like what was on

the horizon.

Anyway okay, all right.

Speaker 2: Well, you know what I
just want to say?

Feel free to say like stop me,
because like.

I've said, I love to express
myself.

I love to express myself.

I'm so excited to have someone
that wants to hear my story Like

all of that.

So if you do find a spot you're
like, hold on, just I get it.

Speaker 1: I will.

Speaker 2: Yes.

January of 2020, our seed
investors were very much like

all right, like this might be a
thing, just here.

Here's a small bit of money.

We raised a million and a half
dollars from seven investors,

and it was more like just
experiment, just play, like just

just play.

Speaker 1: Figure it out, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, just see what
it can be.

We don't know what it's going
to be, but this seems like you

know what you're talking about.

You know?

You seem like you're adults in
the room, Like let's just, let's

just see right.

Yeah, yeah, everyone's excited
at that point and it's just, you

know, it's the markets has we
had DeFi, summer right, and so

it's like it's just exciting
that now it's like picking up

and people are just willing to
take some chances.

So that was January 21.

Anyway, so yeah, when NFTs
first started coming out, I was

contacting on Twitter Like I saw
a couple of NFT communities

started using collab and I was
like wait, what's going on?

I'm like, oh, this is a cool
way for NFTs people, collectors

to get together Like they can do
the social token.

They can do the social token
thing and they can do this Dow

thing Like this is so cool, I
love this.

And so I was literally Kyle on
on Twitter.

I was DMing every new NFT
project and I was saying, hey,

there's this thing called collab
land.

You can get all your token
holders in a group together.

Everyone who has your NFT like
you can get them together and

you can be with them.

Do you want to use it?

I was literally begging every
new project to use it and then

after a while I oh and I was
even doing like this community,

community like snapshot, like,
because every person agreed to

use collab land.

I was like, oh, I'm gonna use it
, yeah, yeah, this is awesome,

thank you, thank you, right, and
so anyway.

So I was doing that and I was
like calling or not calling, but

like anyway, I could get into
these communities to act like

there was no community, just
Twitter, like just begging

people to use it, and then after
a while, like there was nobody

that wasn't using it.

That's right, it's a shift for
me, like it went from me having

to ask everyone to use it to
everyone saying, oh yeah, we're

already using it.

That's right, and one day and I
was like what, okay, like now I

need to, you know, move in a
different direction.

I don't do that job anymore.

Speaker 1: And when I what I I
really want to highlight this

because I don't think people
whether in web two, web three,

this is just a, this is just a
part of building something from

the ground up is that, like,
when you're like people want

something that's different, but
in order to start something

that's different, you have to
like, you have to be willing to

take so much heat and put in all
this legwork to convince

something people of something
that doesn't even exist yet or

that's very early in existence,
that it's going to work, that

it's going to happen.

Like no one wants DMs of the
same shit over and over and over

.

Like I get DMs for projects
that like, yeah, I think this

could really benefit us.

I'm like no, this could benefit
you for coming on the show.

Like I'm not interested in
whatever the hell you're doing

but, you have given me nothing
of interest.

If you're reaching out to me and
that's been one of the things

that has like now that I look
back at it, whether I is in my

esports journey before web three
or in the podcasting now is

that you know I I made the DM so
little about what it was going

to do for me and everything
about what it was going to do

for them, and I think people
really don't understand how

valuable that is, because DMs
everyone's everyone's sensitive

to sales.

Everyone's only got so much
time and everyone has this

different mindset of, like,
trying something new and are

they going to sell me something
malicious or are they?

Are they just pumping their own
bags?

Right?

And I think it's really
important to highlight what you

did.

It's like begging people to use
this product that you thought

was going to work, that you knew
was going to work.

Speaker 2: You know, and be
really good for them, and like

it's going to be cool.

Just try it.

I think it's going to be cool.

That's right and I didn't even
think about it.

It's interesting that you say,
like what you just said, because

I didn't think of it that way
at all, cause I wasn't selling

anything.

No it was more like hey, this
might be a cool fun toy for your

project that's right, right.

Speaker 1: This could be fun for
you, but the key were.

The key part was that it was
nothing about you, it was.

It was.

It was all for them.

It's not like what, and it
wasn't for you trying to

disguise it as what it could be
for them.

It wasn't, it was.

Try this thing, let's see if it
works.

Speaker 2: Try this thing.

I think this thing is really
cool.

Dows are using it and social
tokens are using it.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 2: NFTs could use it too
, and I think it could be really

cool.

Right Now it is it stopped
being a thing I had to do

anymore.

It stopped being a thing I had
to ask people to do.

That was when I talk about it.

That was one of those moments.

Speaker 1: Let me ask you,
though, in a weird way, do you

miss being on the ground and
hustling your own product out?

Do you miss any part of that?

It?

Speaker 2: feels that way, but
in a different way.

I don't feel like it's still
humble.

My job is still very humble.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: There's still a lot
of convincing and it's still all

there.

It's just not that anymore.

That was a win.

All this other stuff now, it's
hard to really quantify as a

winner or a loss.

That moment I can point to and
say that was a win.

That was a win that I felt in
my body.

Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and the
reason I ask that is because

it's part of my favorite part of
building this podcast.

It's like reaching out, putting
in the groundwork, putting in

the legwork and getting that yes
or getting that response.

It is literally the best
feeling in the entire world.

I don't know if you can relate,
but it is like I've even had

people approach me to say, hey,
we're a service to help you get

more guests on the show, and I'm
like that's my favorite part of

this.

I don't want you to.

I'm not going to pay you to
take away what makes me happy,

right, I fucking love what I do,
yeah, and so I had to ask that

selfishly, because that's
literally one of the favorite

parts is the outreach and
finding someone I think is doing

cool shit or not think, but
find someone that's doing cool

shit and say, hey, let's do some
cool shit together.

Speaker 2: Oh boy, and your job
is just the best.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 2: So it's like when you
get that connection, when you

meet someone that works, it's
like oh, you're, I, it's the

longest.

I know what you're doing.

It's really your like, similar
to what I was doing.

He's just following your
passion, yeah.

Like you're saying this is cool
.

Do you want to do this cool
thing with me?

Speaker 1: Right, yeah, and if
you can portray that, if you can

find ways to say that it's,
it's magical, I want so I want

to rewind a little bit, even
before I look at 18, right, so,

because I'm I'm curious, because
, like, just my context is that

in 2014, 2015, like I was I was
aware of crypto.

I like I'm pretty sure I bought
a couple dollars of something,

just just to like say I did it,
you know, but I this is coming

from a video game person.

I'm like y'all are a bunch of
fucking nerds.

Like I don't know what this is.

Like this seems really dumb,
like I don't know why it has

value, but it just has value and
I didn't see any sort of use

case.

I'm like, where do I use this?

Why does this have so much
value?

What's the hype around this?

But I wasn't willing to learn
the hype.

I wasn't willing to learn why
this was so special.

What was, like some of your
like, when was like your first

moment into crypto in general?

Like, was it like in the early
days?

Or like, kind of, tell me a
little bit about that.

Speaker 2: Well, my husband, who
I have, this we have.

I have two co-founders.

My husband is one of my
co-founders.

Yeah, yeah.

Raymond Fang he's our CTO and
he's our co-founder.

My husband has just been into
it from the beginning, got it.

My husband is a dreamer and
he's been into lots of different

things, and so for me I was
like, and part of being with him

and living this life together
is to support each other's

passions no matter what.

Speaker 1: As long as they're
not hurting anybody.

Speaker 2: And so I was like
okay, crypto, this is just

another thing.

But it wasn't until Ethereum,
like with Bitcoin, we had some

business.

Like with Bitcoin, we had some
Bitcoin.

There was a use case for it.

Early on, my dad's business was
like extorted.

Speaker 1: And so, and then they
were was extorted by Bitcoin.

Speaker 2: People that wanted.

Speaker 1: Bitcoin.

Speaker 2: So they had like
trapped all of his data and

manufacturing and anyway.

And so then he called us and
he's like what do we do?

Like how am I going to get this
back?

They want a Bitcoin.

And we're like oh, yeah, yeah,
okay, we'll give you Bitcoin.

And so it was half a Bitcoin at
that point.

It was so cheap, right, when
you think about it.

But this is where our that was
the real world usage of Bitcoin.

Otherwise, there wasn't any
right.

And so then we got a credit
card with it and we bought a cup

of coffee with one Bitcoin.

Speaker 1: So wild that is so
wild to think about that.

Speaker 2: At the time we're
like, oh, this is awesome, like

you know, and you don't realize
that this is going to happen.

But Bitcoin, yeah, it was just
more of a academic interest,

like, oh, this is just something
interesting.

We were not minors, we were not
pursuing it in any other field.

Actually, he's from gaming and
I was at that time before

starting to do this with him.

I'm a lawyer, but also we
adopted our children.

My daughter has special needs.

I've homeschooled her and my
son.

So that's kind of been the
focus of my life, like adoption,

attachment and homeschooling my
children.

So I'm a partner to him, to
James, and we're talking

together about this.

But it's not our business, it's
not work, it's not.

It's just kind of an
interesting yeah, and it wasn't

until 2016, where he was working
.

After gaming, he moved to the ad
tech industry and he's like, oh

, you know, there's an
opportunity here to use crypto

for ad tech, and so he wrote the
white paper with some other

people for token it's so insane.

Speaker 1: Yeah, in 2016, to
have that vision Toque curated

registries.

That's insane.

Speaker 2: That's where that
started.

And then, after that started,
it was like moving full time

into working in crypto.

And then it wasn't until 2018
where it was like, oh, let's do

something together, let's see
what you know, let's try to

follow our own passion.

And it was because of crypto at
that point that you know we had

some money and so then you can.

You know just a logistics of
life, like how do you keep doing

startups?

You have to, like, make money
one way and then fund your

startup.

And so it was like made some
money in crypto.

And then finally was like, oh,
now we can fund to hire some

engineers of our own and we can
keep this business going every

month.

And so that was in 2018.

But then still, it was a long,
hard road and it was just all of

you know our money, but it
never felt like a risk, like it

felt inevitable, and I don't
know why that is, but I think in

order to be early on something,
to be early on anything, it's

like it has to just feel like
it's the right thing, because if

you don't think it's the right
thing, then it's easy to get out

of it, but if you something
unlocks for you where you feel

this is the way, this is better,
so this will win.

That's right Once you have that
and you have that, kyle.

Once you have that, then the
hard times.

And that's why I'm saying bear
market.

What's a bear market?

When you're thinking of the
future, and during the bear

market, that's when you know the
noise leaves the room and

everyone's like I love bear
markets.

Speaker 1: I love because it
gets my Twitter feed gets a lot

quieter and it gets a lot more
genuine again and I'm like, oh,

thank God sometimes, like I
enjoy it.

I enjoy the social aspect.

Speaker 2: For who right?

It's not a bear market for the
movement, it's a building time

for the movement.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 2: So yeah anyway.

So it was a lot of that until
it became this.

I mean it's not an instant
success, it's not an overnight

success.

I mean our first real like
discussion about what Collabland

was going to be was right
during social tokens.

And then it's like NFTs
starting to get momentum and

people are wanting more support
on NFTs and it's like wait a

minute, I thought we were going
to stick with Dow tooling,

that's right.

And I'm saying, no, we're not
doing Dow tooling.

Listen to me, this is something
and I want to be a part of it,

so let's grow wider.

So now we support, you know, 13
different blockchains and over

a dozen different wallets.

But it's like, at that point,
do we want to cater to this?

This, the NFT movement, like do
we want to support this?

And I'm like can we?

Can we, can we, because, look,
this is who we're getting the

most people.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: He's saying, like,
but it's not the most

interesting tech.

You know he's a developer and
he's like I'm not in this to

like, do the boring thing I'm in
this to oh my gosh, my seat

just went down.

Sorry about that, right?

Anyway, it's like I don't want
to do that, like I'm here to

build, I'm here to be exciting,
I'm here to be fun stuff and I

want to, and this is boring,
this is easy, anybody could do

this.

That's the end.

That's what he's saying at that
point and I'm saying and I'm

saying, no, let's, let's just
see where this goes.

Let's just see where this goes,
because the idea, like I'm a

community person, like I've
always been a part of online

communities, I started on the
internet when, in 1992, like

when I was in high school and I
used to dial up a real pioneer

of the internet like that that I
love.

Speaker 1: That yeah, okay, yeah
, that makes sense.

Speaker 2: You know I used to
dial up to a BBS and it was all

text and you know we'd use Macro
, meant like these images and

anyway.

So I was dialing up and in
these relationships and I just

love online community.

So after that then I was on
live journal.

Like I processed my entire
adoption on live journal because

I was like because it took
about five years for me to like

even get to the point.

I was like I'm going to adopt,
I'm not going to adopt, I'm

going to adopt.

It's like I had to go through
every revolution of it and or

evolution of it.

And it was because of live
journal and the community of

people I met on live journal
adoptive parents and adoptees

who I'm still in relationship
with, like kids who are, you

know, teenagers on the internet,
who were just adoptees.

And I'm like a perspective
adoptive mom and I'm like tell

me about your life and what are
the things that went right and

what are things that went wrong?

What are your parents doing
right and do you like being

adopted?

And like I just wanted to know
every single thing about it.

And so online communities have
just always been such a huge

part of just who I am that when
this happened with NFTs and I

don't want to cry, but like when
this happened, like and I saw

that communities were being
starting to form and that this

could be a possibility for like
a new type of community to exist

, like fuck, I'm like I'm not
passing this up, like I don't

care if you think this tech is
boring, like I want to do this

and I really, really fought for
it because this is the

revolution.

Speaker 1: Like this is like
what?

Speaker 2: Like I get to see new
, different ways, like a brand

new way that people are
connecting.

Like who gets to have that?

Speaker 1: And what I love about
.

I'm glad you went all the way
back to the beginning, like

early days internet, because I
was going to ask where you got

your conviction from.

So, because when I first came
into the space, I was following

people I didn't know.

I wish I like I wish I knew who
you were when I first came into

the space.

I didn't know you until two,
three weeks ago, but what I my,

how I built, literally, how I
built my conviction.

I had my aha moment.

It was the people sale and I'm
like, okay, what is this Like?

How did a digital JPEG just
sell for, like you know, $70

million when I could save it on
my computer?

That was like my first moment.

But really, where I built my
conviction, that was like the

diving board.

It's like okay, now that I feel
this very similar to this energy

that you're feeling, like I
felt it when you're talking

about it.

I feel it within myself.

I felt I feel it every day I
get to log into Twitter, um, and

I'm like the reason, though,
the place where I built that was

following people like Andrew St
Horitz and Chris Dixon and, you

know, gary Vee, and I'm like,
okay, these people were around

and it's not just those people,
but it's people that built the

internet and people who
experienced the internet

invested in the internet in day
one.

It was like back when it was
like web one and I'm like, what

the fuck are these people saying
about this?

And I love that you tied it in
because, like you, experienced

community in the very first days
of community, like online

community, I mean, um, and so do
you see this as like a?

Was this like what web one was
supposed to be when it first

came out?

Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not going
to say supposed to be, but I'm

sure I mean this is my jam.

Speaker 1: Like right.

Speaker 2: You know
relationships that are.

You know people are using an
alias like mine was Daisy chain,

and I didn't know what a Daisy
chain was and I found out it was

some sexual thing.

But it was Daisy chain saw,
which was a band at the time.

You know, back in the early
nineties and so, um, early early

nineties, beginning of nineties
, but anyway, um.

So this whole concept of getting
together using texts like you

know, because we were on
telegram initially and then

moved to discord, it's like all
texts relationship, like it just

hit, fired every single nerve
for me.

Like that reminds me of a time
when I was a young girl, 30

years ago, like you know, 18, 19
and finding out how, what it.

This is what this world is.

It's a bigger world than myself
.

Like I'm, you know, young
Indian woman or girl, um, you

know, raised by religious
parents in Southern California.

And now I'm, like online, I'm
talking to people from all over

and they don't know anything
about me and I get to just be

who I am and they're interested
in me because of my interest and

it doesn't matter, like, what I
look like or how tall I am, or

what my education is, or how
much money I have or what it's

like.

It just kind of removed all of
that and allowed me to be like

the truest version of myself.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 2: Because I don't think
the truest versions of

ourselves or what we look like
Like this is me.

Like so this is whatever
genetic situation that created

this.

Now, this is supposed to be me.

Like how can this be me?

This is made up of 150,000
years of genetic material and

this is what survived and that's
why I get to survive right now.

But what else it's not like
inside I get to, I have the

privilege of living in a time
where people are get to share

what's inside of themselves,
like we're not just surviving,

like our previous generations
did, we get to explore all that

it is to be a human being and
every aspect of ourselves, and

so that, to me, was what the
internet was then.

And this felt very much like
that, because I thought, oh my

God, we're coming off of this I
don't know how to even say it,

but like filters and a women put
filters on their faces, and so

much so that I don't even
recognize people as human.

Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2: So the whole idea of
like NFTs and using a PFP as

your identity I was like, oh,
this is so nice.

Speaker 1: A breath of fresh air
.

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2: I don't have to look
at filters anymore.

Like, if I want to be a dead
fella and I'm feeling like a

dead fella today, I change my
profile picture all the time,

but like I'm going to be a dead
fella today, and that's me today

, that's right.

Or I'm a sad drill today, or
I'm at atom bomb today, like

that's me today and that's who I
want to be today, and so it's

and it's more a reflection of
your support, which is also a

reflection of your mission.

Again, that all adds up to who
you are.

So, yes, absolutely.

This feels like that.

I mean what it was supposed to
be.

We know what it turned into.

It turned into filters, and I
was describing this as somebody

else.

Like even when you have a baby
picture, the parents like clean

up everything in the back and
then take the picture of the

baby.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Even if that's just
one corner of their house,

that's super tidy like.

They want everyone to think
that the rest of their house is

that tidy Like it's all turned
into phony baloney.

Speaker 1: It is.

And I'll tell you like, when we
went to, there was some

obviously there's some good
parts of web two Like there.

There there's some amazing
things that happen to web two,

but I like the more I
participate in this space, the

more I like kind of look at them
.

Like web one truly felt Now I
wasn't old enough to like really

have awareness and experience
it, but it, from what I hear, it

felt more decentralized than
anything else.

And then we took this turn
where it was like now we wanted

to share every story about who
we were and we wanted to put

every filter and we wanted to
like present this image of

something that really didn't
exist and it's like somewhere.

We like took this turn where in
the beginning, I had aim.

You know, I had a long instant
messenger.

I had, like I was, you know,
that was like my thing and there

was no, there was no person
attached to it, it was just a

screenshot, it was an image, it
was, it was, it was pseudonymous

.

You know, really, what we're
experiencing today and so that's

why I like I'm starting to like
make that connection.

I'm like, oh my God, this is
like.

This is, I feel like, what a
lot of the people who, like were

early days the internet really
wanted, you know, not what it

was turned out, what it was
supposed to be, but like web

three, is what people in web one
it feels like they were trying

to drive towards.

And then somewhere we just took
a turn, you know, and we yes,

absolutely.

Speaker 2: You know what I mean,
and and what we call this, like

, what we talk about.

This is the real internet.

Speaker 1: This is the internet,
now that we have money here.

Speaker 2: This is the internet.

Speaker 1: This is what we can.

Speaker 2: We can be what we
want it to be, and does that

mean that we won't Just repeat
what happened last time?

Does that mean, we won't?

Maybe, I don't know if it's in
us to have this utopian idea

Like.

Is it too idealistic, is it too
optimistic?

Is it unreasonable?

I don't know.

Maybe we are not evolved enough
to be there and we're just

going to repeat and become into
these siloed platforms again.

I don't know.

However, what I've learned from
this experience is that I

believe that it's possible and
because I believe it's possible,

I want to try to.

If I can move the needle at all
in the direction of this

possibility, even if it's a 5%
chance or a 1% chance.

If there's an opportunity for
me to affect change in that way,

then I will do it at any cost.

Speaker 1: And I think that's
what a lot of people don't

realize.

And going back to what you were
saying before, it's like if we

knew what the cycle was going to
be, there would be no room to

have this idea and this
imagination of what could be.

If you don't believe it's going
to happen, then it definitely

won't happen.

I have enough experience in
life to know that, whether you

believe it's going to happen or
not, you're absolutely right and

so that has been, and that's
not just in crypto and NFTs,

that is just everything in
general.

Like, whether you believe it or
not, you're right, and that has

stuck with me forever.

And so I see a lot of the hate
coming towards Web3.

And it's like but if you don't
even believe that it's a

possibility, how can you not
believe in something better,

like just because it may not be
the exact result or the outcome

or exactly the way we intended
it or that we planned?

That is a very tough life to
live, trying to put a cap on

innovation.

There's someone trying to
follow their dream and I want to

touch on something you just
said.

Was that like?

I asked those questions to
myself all the time.

I'm like no well, is this going
to zero.

Is this like?

Is this all speculative?

Is the government going to come
in?

And you know we repeat some of
these cycles.

But and I questioned myself and
I questioned it from time to

time I'm like okay, where am I
at?

Like, like, do I still believe
the same answers to these

questions that I had when I
first started here?

And the answer is always yes,
but in the reason why, it is

because I can't really tie it to
anything truly logical.

I'm not historically a numbers
guy.

I love numbers when they go up
in my favor, but I'm not like a

nerd for numbers.

But what I base everything on
is a feeling.

I'm like there hasn't been
nothing that makes me feel the

way this community feels.

There has been nothing that the
only thing that comes close or

the only thing that is better
than this is a very personal

journey of mine getting sober.

That is my true tribe, like, if
I'm if I'm boiling it down to

this is bonus round, but this is
the closest that it's ever felt

to that true tribe.

And I said I have never met a
more vibrant group of people

that are like, that actually
believe in something better and

that have a bunch of cool tools
or building a bunch of cool

tools to like hopefully make it
happen.

You know, and so that's what I
base like my conviction on.

Is that like how does it make
me feel?

You know, how does this space
make me feel?

I have, I couldn't imagine this
going away tomorrow.

Like that would just I don't
know where I'd go in life, like

that would just destroy me on a
personal level.

Speaker 2: I think we're all
ruined.

All ruined for if this doesn't
go well and really what is well

means success is different for
different people.

Speaker 1: Right right.

Speaker 2: I wanna keep doing
this.

I wanna be able to live and
keep doing this.

I think I'm ruined for anything
else.

Right now, you know I'm 48, I
don't know what 58 or 60 it's

gonna feel like, but being able
to be, have my beliefs and my

work and my love all be together
.

And it doesn't even feel like
work, because it's what I want

to do with my life, and so it's
not even.

You know.

Someone was asking like oh, is
it full time?

Or I'm like it's all the time,
it's all the time.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: And it's all the time
, because who I am and what I'm

doing are the same thing.

It's who I am, it's what I
would be doing, even if I'm

working in it.

I'm so lucky to be here, but I
believe in this, like I believe

this is a better way, and so I
don't know.

It's very difficult to have
balance.

You know, that's one of the
things that we talk about a lot,

and I don't know if it's talk
about it or not.

And on this topic.

Speaker 1: We're talking about
it.

Speaker 2: We're talking about
it.

Balance is very, very, very
difficult.

Exercise, drinking water,
eating you know, really eating.

I laugh and I say everybody in
crypto is doing intermittent

fasting or only one meal a day.

We're all doing one meal a day.

We're all on this one meal a
day diet and good doctors like

it, so we're okay, but we're
doing it because we don't think

to eat, because we're so
passionate about this right now

and we're so excited and it's
just there's so much interest in

the space and there's so much
to learn.

There's so much people are
talking about you wanna hear

every single discussion.

I mean, I don't know.

It must have been like when I
don't even know what you would

describe it the printing pass
press, or railroads, or like air

flight.

Like this is everyone can
participate.

Like you're like oh, people are
flying to China, or people are

flying Like not everyone could
afford to do that.

This everyone can be a part of,
and so it's like how can you

not then?

How can you?

it's hard to step away because
you're like this is a thing and

this is like this is life
changing and this is like a once

in a lifetime opportunity, like
even though we had the internet

before, but this is like the
real internet, and so it's like

what you know?

What do we?

This is a second chance, right?

Yes?

Yes, it's hard to step away for
it and for a lot of people,

younger people.

I don't know how old you are,
kyle, so I can't remember 30,.

Speaker 1: I just turned 30.

Speaker 2: Okay, well, happy
birthday Thank you, thank you I

said birthday in March as well,
so both.

Speaker 1: Pisces, Pisces gang.

Speaker 2: Yes, pisces, yes,
let's go.

Speaker 1: I knew, that's why we
got along so well 48.

Speaker 2: So I was 18 when you
were born.

Speaker 1: You were when you
said now I wasn't going to say

it, but unless it naturally came
from you.

On the age I was raised very
Southern.

I got a Texas mom.

I never asked women how old
they are.

I never make jokes about the
age, so I know.

Speaker 2: I tell people
casually because I'm 48 and I'm

a woman and I'm here, so you
need to hear that.

Speaker 1: It's insane, you do.

People need to hear that.

Speaker 2: People need to know
that there is older women here

and we're just insatiable and
interesting and useful and this

is not a bro club and it's not
all 20-somethings.

Speaker 1: And.

Speaker 2: I yeah, like I feel
those repslets and so I don't

have.

There was one time I was at an
event at East Denver.

I was at East Denver, yeah, I
think, East Denver, and it was a

and you know, some of these,
some people are just pretty

clueless.

And he, this guy, came up to me
and he said I asked my friend

how old you were.

These are people I don't know.

I asked my friend how old you
were, and we think you're 40.

And I was like Wow.

Speaker 1: That's a very bold
thing to come up and say to

women that you don't know.

That's bold.

Speaker 2: And I said well,
before I started in crypto, I

looked like 15 years younger.

I'm like well, one thing,
you're still pegging me for

eight years younger than I am.

So, all right, I'm doing
something right, and even though

that's right and then other Ben
.

It's true, you know it's taken
a toll.

Speaker 1: It does it?

Does I mean?

When I first came, when I first
figured out about this space, I

was in a you know, without
going into too much detail, but

I was in a very tough spot
professionally and personally.

In it, my entire world was
flipped inside out, like what I

thought was real.

Nothing that I had experienced
turned out to be real or turned

out to be true.

And I was in this weird
transition and I historically,

since a kid like I, have always
been very in tune with my

emotions and whether I'm happy
or whether I'm sad, it is a

strong feeling and I cannot, I
can't, hide it, like it it's

just, it radiates everywhere.

Even if I put a smile on my
face, people know.

And.

But I was in the spot where I
basically called out a week from

work and when I listened to
that Clubhouse episode with

people I was running on maybe
four hours of sleep total the

past two days and on like 16
cups of coffee and I like I was

so tired and I wanted to go to
bed, so bad, but I couldn't.

I even had it bootlegged,
recorded like to try to get some

sleep but I couldn't.

I kept coming back to the
living room where it was being

recorded.

I'm like there, there was
something special here and you

touch on.

You touch on the balance,
because that has been is I now.

I am super privileged right now
to be in the position that I am

at work because I'm in a
salaried position and we're

working from home, so it's like
I can take a Friday afternoon to

record a podcast.

My previous job I couldn't do
that and so and I'm even in a

lot of conflict with like, how I
spend my time and how much is

dedicated towards what pays the
bills and what makes me happy

and all of this stuff.

And so I I learned this from one
of Punk's six, five, two, nine

threads, and it was.

It wasn't one of his mega
threads, but it was.

It was one of the short tweets
that he had where he he said

something that was like, if
you're in crypto and you're

working a full-time job or if
you're working any sort of web

two job, like, literally hang on
like, like, just do whatever

the hell you have to do, just to
hang on Like, cause it's, it's

gonna get there and you are
gonna get to that point.

But it is a very, very tough
journey and I think a lot of

people really underestimate that
and people don't understand,

like why people are only eating
one meal a day and kill it,

essentially like depriving their
body of natural resources.

Speaker 2: Cause we didn't even
notice it, You're you don't even

notice it.

You don't even notice it.

It's not like I don't even make
a choice to do it.

You know, I don't know what and
I just have lost really it's.

It's maybe really awful, but
it's like I've kind of lost

interest in a lot of that.

And so it's like I just I'm so
hyped and I'm so excited and I

just I just want this to go and
I just think, if you know you

can't, this is not sustainable.

This is not advice I would give,
and you know they say a lot

like what advice would you give
your best friend?

Well, I tell my best friend to
go to yoga every day.

I would tell my best friend to
you know, drink the green juice

Like I don't know.

I don't know what you got stuff
but I would.

So I'm not doing it right, but
I still have energy for it right

now because I just I'm getting
nourished in different ways.

Speaker 1: That's right.

That's right.

It's a spiritual nourishment.

It's a.

It's a very, it's a very
spiritual nourishment and I've

never felt anything like that.

You know, and I mean I yeah
like going on that again, going

on the balance thing.

This is not and I think it's
really important to highlight

this, because being early is not
for everybody Like it's, it's

so hard and what's.

I think the one of the biggest
challenges, at least from what

I've noticed, is that, because
there is such a large financial

opportunity, you're getting
people who are not real and I

say this with all of them in the
world but are really just not

cut out to be a first mover in
something, because there is so

much like what we just talked
about that is not talked about

when it comes, like this is the
advice you'd give your friend

who is obviously not a first
mover.

Like if, if you're not a first
mover, this is not like, this is

really tough, like what people
are doing here, and if you're

coming in this from just one
angle, if you don't see the

pillars of the culture that
we're being, that are being

built here, you're not going to
make it.

Speaker 2: It's funny, though,
that you say that, because, like

the war stories from before,
nfts- also felt that way like

even harder.

Speaker 1: And then I feel late
compared to you.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: It's still hard and I
still 100% agree with you

because the people I meet in
this space like you talking to

you, it's like we get it, you
know, like you met at that event

, you're at that event.

Speaker 1: It took three minutes
of conversation to get you on

this podcast and it cause it's
just that, was it, Yep?

Speaker 2: And it's like there's
still this understanding, this

camaraderie, that it's like this
shorthand we have with each

other.

That's yeah, we're the same.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 2: Okay, I can trust you
.

You're in this with me, and
that means it's still early.

We still have that culture.

Speaker 1: Yes, and I've been
trying to find.

I'm like, I'm already starting
to like put feelers on, like,

okay, they're starting to get a
lot of attention here about

where is web for Like okay, like
, where is the edge?

Where is that group Cause?

Like, I think that has been
historically something I've

searched for my whole life and
that's why this space is so

special.

Is that when, when the iPhone
first came out, I was I don't

know how old I was either late
junior high or early high school

but I remember exactly where I
was at that moment.

I remember exactly where I was
standing and I remember I

couldn't comprehend why it felt
so revolutionary, but I remember

the feeling that this was going
to change the world and it did

right.

Like, I remember the pauses
that Steve Jobs gave and the way

he carried himself and the way
he pulled the phone out of his

pocket, everything about it.

But again, when web two
happened, it's almost like my

life.

Of course, you know I've no
problems sharing it, but I'm a

recovered drug addict.

Along with web two, my life took
a turn personally and so I took

a little detour and for me,
selfishly, this is like

reconnecting with that like
junior high kid that like had

all this energy, but he didn't
know where to put it, you know,

and he didn't know how to like
harness everything that he had,

like that was within, and so I
think that it's I literally just

came to that right now as we
were talking and I'm like that's

why this feels so special.

And if you don't feel it, and
it's not for you, and if you

want safety, this is not for you
.

Speaker 2: No, it's fun though,
and I mean I think that's why

it's so easy for me to talk
about my age too, because it's

like it's really become
meaningless.

Speaker 1: Right right.

Speaker 2: Because you and I are
both adventurers.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 2: We have this childish
idealism and curiosity and this

wanting to explore and what's
the age on that, like who cares,

and so I need people who are 19
and 25 and it still feels like

our energies are the same.

And it's almost like a crypto
age, like the joke is kind of

like what's your crypto age?

Because then it's like, and no
one knows, he's in dog years, I

don't know.

But it's funny because you, you
like, connect on this other

level and it's.

I love the friendships too.

I mean, I mean the friendships
have been and the connections,

the human connections, people in
the front.

It's just, it's been something
so unexpected and I'm just

really and again, you know we
talked about how this is like

bonus life and this is bonus.

And this feels like being on the
playground again, like I'm

making new friends, like do you
want to play on the swings or do

you want to be on the hopscotch
?

Like it's almost like we're
just all playing with each other

.

But we're grown ups and we
already.

We have money, we have to
depend on people, so it's like

it's it's the course now and we
get to be kids again.

Speaker 1: That's right.

I think that's the most
important thing and there's a

reason why, like, I'm not a
doodles holder, but I knew when

doodles came out that it was
like I'm like this, is it Like

this is going to like?

I had the conviction.

I just had no ETH and I, when I
went to that doodles event or

that, not the event, but the
doodles, what do they call it?

Activation at South by I and I
and I, I was, so I like that was

like the one thing I convinced
you to do.

I think, before you left,
you're like you should go to

doodles.

Speaker 2: Go to the doodles and
look, you have to now, but yes,

I was.

Speaker 1: I.

I had a smile on my face for
three and a half hours the

entire time I was in there.

I didn't realize I spent three
and a half hours in there.

I'm like any brand and you
don't even look, you take away

entities from doodles like that
is such a warm, cozy, kid

friendly brand that touches
every generation.

And if they can make grown men
feel like they're five years old

at Disney World again, like
that brand is something truly

special.

I mean I bought the figurine, I
bought every piece of merch

they had.

I bought every sticker.

I was, I had zero control.

It was like.

It's like when Disney World if
you've been to Disney World, it

dump every ride.

You go through this adventure
and you go through this thing

and then it right when you're
feeling nostalgic, it dumps you

into a gift shop to like buy all
the nostalgia that you just did

.

I felt like that at doodles and
there has been nothing that has

even come close to making me
feel like that 100 percent.

Speaker 2: I went to doodles
because you told me to go to

doodles and because you saw my
creature's jacket and you're

like, oh yeah, you should go to
do this.

I was like, oh OK, I'll go to
doodles.

I did not have a doodle, I
doodles, I think, shot out of my

price range, pretty yeah.

And so by the time I even like
it was on the horizon for me,

I'm just like, oh yeah, I can't
afford that.

So I didn't even I didn't
indulge at all.

So from afar I was like yeah
that's cool, but some things are

just not for me.

So, ok, that's what it is.

But then you're like go to
doodles.

And I said, oh, do you have to
be a holder?

And you said, no, they're the
holder.

Events are in the night and
then during the day it's open to

everybody.

And I was like, oh, that's
really cool, ok, I'll do it.

And so I did it.

First thing I did is when I was
standing in line, I was asking

people around me like, do I need
to do anything?

Like you know, you just walk in
and they're like no, you have to

join the doodles discord, which
turned out to not be true.

But they're like join the
doodles discord.

I said OK, so I joined the
doodles discord.

I was kind of like browsing in
the discord as a non-holder just

while I was in line to kind of
like mentally prepare for being

in inside.

And once I went in I was like
this is so playful, this is so

fun.

Everyone is smiling, this is
really really cool.

Like even the exhibits were
cool, I know.

So I was just really enjoying
myself.

I was just really enjoying
myself.

So I was like, but I wasn't
thinking I was going to buy a

doodle, I was just like oh, this
is really really cool.

And then I went into the merch
shop and that whole experience

was so fun.

And then I stood.

They had a button machine.

Did you see the button?

Speaker 1: I got the button yes.

I got the button yes.

Speaker 2: So I was in line for
the button machine and I was

talking to people in line about
doodles and it just all doodles

kind of day.

And then I got to the front of
the line and I said, oh, I don't

have Apple Pay.

And then the guy was like, oh
no, I'll buy it for you.

So then he bought me a button
and it's just that kind of like

you know, like just that
community feeling, yes.

And then after that I was like,
oh, I need to buy a doodle, I'm

going to buy a doodle.

And then I sold like nine and a
half ETH worth of other NFTs,

Like I just went on a selling
spree.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Because I was like,
oh okay, it's like 12 ETH, I got

to get it.

So I was like I just went on a
selling spree of all some of my

other projects, like all of my
other projects that I could at

that point Liquid 8.

And then the Ape token dropped.

Yes, and then at that point I'm
like, oh good, Then I'm going to

sell five ETH worth and then
I'm going to get my doodle, and

so I got the doodle.

So the Ape token definitely,
you know, got me not the whole

thing.

I made most of the money
selling my other NFTs, but the

Ape token got me, put me over
the finish line for my doodle

and this is my doodle and I love
it.

Speaker 1: I love it.

I love it.

Speaker 2: And that's the whole
thing.

It's like at this point, you
know, buying this is my most

expensive NFT by 10 and a half
ETH, yeah, by 10 and a half ETH.

That's kind of a lot for me,
but I bought it and I was like I

don't even care, like goes up,
goes down, like I just want to

be a part of it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly Exactly
, and I'm like as a non-holder,

I was like how can I, how can I
buy as many things to showcase

that I'm a part of this?

That was like my thing, like
even that figurine like that is.

Oh my God, I can't wait.

It's a pre-order for June, but
that's a wild event Like that

exhibition motivated you to
liquidate nine Ethereum worth of

product, like worth of assets
that you had.

Speaker 2: And I'm passing it
out too right.

Speaker 1: Right, just to be a
part of this, like that, if that

doesn't say something.

And for those, I know I'm sure
I have a few people that are

still like unclear of the ETH to
USD, like estimated, like if

you put it at $3,000, like
$3,000, that is a 30,

essentially a $30,000, like, oh
shit, I just need to liquidate

this so I can get into this
community.

You know what I mean.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: And it's really not
for it really isn't it's?

Not about the money and it's
like you know I was.

I met somebody on Friday night,
was telling them I said like

you rent you know, you rent our
place.

Well, I was in a share car.

Most of my clothes come from
Poshmark, which is like because

I love thrifting but I can't
thrift anyone because I'm in

crypto, so who has time to go
thrifting?

So I shop like late night.

I shop on Poshmark for clothes
that other people have thrifted,

that I can buy so.

I'm not an extravagant person,
by any means, but I'm like, oh

yeah, 14 and a half ETH, that's
like over 40 grand.

I'm like, yeah, I want that.

I don't even care if it's ever
worth 40 grand again.

Like, I just want this.

And that's part of the insanity
of it, which is there just

isn't anything outside that.

Speaker 1: I want that is more
mean, more to me than this.

I'm very similar and I wish I
could.

I'm similar in a few fronts,
but I'm.

The one area that I'm not
similar is that I have, I can, I

the used thrifting, the
thrifting.

I never understood it and so I
never.

I never got into it and I'm a
snob when it comes to that.

I went and bought like a bunch
of like streetwear and eSports

apparel, like during COVID, and
recently upgraded my sound

system Like there's only one
other community that I'm

involved in.

That's almost a psychotic, as I
am with NFTs is that I'm a tool

fan and anything to get their
art in my ears in the best

quality possible.

I'm going to spend absurd
amounts of money to do so.

Yeah, like I bought an entire
Sonos system and a record player

and subscribed to title, which
is like a high-fi, you know

music streaming service, which
is $20 a month literally just to

listen to their songs in the
highest quality possible and on

vinyl, like they spark.

Speaker 2: That's your doodle
Like that's what makes you feel

good.

Like you know, I and it was, you
know, and I'm in a lot of other

projects that I absolutely
adore and that make me feel good

.

But that doodles exhibit,
definitely, whatever was going

on online with doodles, I didn't
, it didn't move me, but in that

experience, the IRL experience
did move me.

Yes, that was new for me as
well.

That was an interesting.

I was not expecting that.

I was not expecting to go to
the doodles exhibit and then

want to buy a doodle.

I wasn't expecting that.

That was a surprise.

Speaker 1: I love that.

So now, now that we're back, I
want to.

I want to talk about we've gone
full circle, we've got.

We started about your journey
in crypto.

We went through some of the
early stages of collab land.

Then we oozed a bunch of
passion about why we enjoy this

space and now we're coming back
to where we left off before.

We just, like, took a complete,
like, like left turn.

So collab land 2021, you'll get
some funding.

You right now you are.

You don't have to DM people to
use your product.

People are just using it.

So where do we go from here?

Speaker 2: I can, I can, I can
start.

So now the summer of 2021,
before world of women.

But you know we're already
starting to get some traction.

Projects are coming up like
family these authority, like I,

tend to track women's projects,
so yeah, yeah.

So when world of women came out
, that was a huge deal for me.

I'm like oh cause fame ladies,
I don't know.

For some reason I just didn't
vibe with the art style.

Speaker 1: I didn't either.

Speaker 2: I don't know I mean,
people are love it.

Everyone loves different things
.

I don't, you know, yuck,
anybody's young.

But I just didn't necessarily
feel it for myself and so when

world of women came out, I'm
like, oh, this I could like take

a bite out of.

So that felt good, Anyway.

So we're starting to get some
traction with these NFT

communities.

Like we signed NBA Top Shot,
that was a big deal.

That was like our first big prod
, you know, first big discord

server.

That's like they already had a
discord server.

They had 400,000 people in
their discord server and they

came to us and they said, wow,
you need collab land because our

discord server is a nightmare.

And we like there's just too
much trolling that happens and

it's hard to like know what's
what and who's who and we don't

know who holds and who doesn't
hold and like we want collab

land.

We're like, oh, amazing,
wonderful and that was something

that we noticed at that point
is that the troll issue, which

is such a big part of like web
two and previous versions of

crypto or not crypto.

Previous version versions of
online communities.

Now we didn't have the troll
issue, because you're in a group

with people that all own your
same asset.

You kind of want to get along,
and if you're saying something

that's kind of bullshitty, then
people are going to call you on

it and they're going to say just
why are you here?

Speaker 1: Right, right, right,
right You're using to be here.

Speaker 2: You paid money to be
here, like, so you're going to

be in here and like shit on
everybody.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: What's what's that
about?

So it's like that troll issue
was removed, the fact that you

didn't have trolls anymore, or
that trolls didn't need to be

serviced the way they do.

Speaker 1: I like that Yep, yep.

They didn't need to be serviced
.

Speaker 2: Right, it was a huge
unlock and so NBA tops.

So we're like oh, nba top.

Like this is happening, you
know that's right.

They're coming.

This is starting to happen, so
we probably should raise a

series A.

That was the thought, like how
are we?

Going to continue to serve?

How are we going to continue to
grow?

How are we going to continue to
keep this free?

How are we going to continue to
?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: You know, keep
growing and growing, like how

are we going to do that?

We need to do a series A, and
so that summer, summer of 2021,

was pretty much like out there
seeing if we could get money, if

we could get a series A.

And it started with, you know,
one valuation and we're like no,

that valuation doesn't really
make sense for us, you know

people don't really get what
we're doing.

This was a thing.

People don't really get what
we're doing and they don't see

what this is.

They don't see the unblock of
what this is and how big this

community is Crucially like
we're trying to convince people

of what this is, Even though we
knew from the users and we knew

from our communities.

This is magic.

Like I see it, I see it, and you
feel it, but trying to convince

people that it's big was even
last summer, was a very, very

hard sell.

We're like, no, we don't really
want to give away so much of

the company for such a low
valuation, so let's not do that.

Then it kept getting higher and
throughout the summer it just

kept getting.

The valuations kept getting
higher and higher and higher and

then it ended with a very high
valuation and at that point,

which was four times what it was
just, you know, six weeks ago

or whatever it was.

And then that's when we
realized like we want our

incentives to be aligned with
the people we serve, and

incentive willingness starts
with finances and shoot.

Sorry everyone, but we're not
going to do a series A anymore

and it caused bristled a lot of
feathers because it's like what

are you doing?

Like don't you want our advice,
don't you want our influence?

And it's like, yes, we'd like
your advice and your influence,

but we just want to make sure
that the community, that's, our

incentives, are aligned with the
community at all times.

Wow, okay.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome,
I mean it's wild.

Keep going, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: So it was easy and
hard.

It was easy because I knew
there was no other option and

James knew there was no other
option, but it was also hard

because people took time to
listen to us.

People took time to give us a
new term sheet until we they

thought we wanted more and they
just bent over backwards to try

to please us and accommodate us.

And when we said that's not
enough for this, you know they

they accommodated us and then at
the end we still ended up

saying that it's not going to
happen.

And that was hard, it's hard.

It's hard because you don't
want to waste people time, you

don't want to discipline people
and, like I said, like we're

doing what feels right and we're
doing what we, what the world

we're trying to create, the
world we want to see, and that

requires doing this and saying
no.

So easy and hard, Anyway.

So then we're like now what do
we do?

What are we going to do about
money?

Like now we have no money.

Like we could have $15 million
in our bank account, you know.

And and now we have no money.

So what do we do?

And it's not that we had no
money, we had most of our seed

money thanks to each right Cause
, each our, our investment was

in each and so interesting Okay.

Yeah, so when each went up, then
we were not spending any money

for like what we spent, we made.

And so at this point we thought
we would need more money, right

Like we thought we should do
this series and we thought we

needed more money, but we
weren't spending any money and

we'd really we'd learn to really
just gather a really smart,

trust, high trust team.

And boy do I love our team and
we spend so much time together

that we're like family and we're
friends and we're doing this

fun thing together and we don't
need like we're so efficient.

And you know Raymond Fang, he
he's our CTO and he's just.

You know James is a developer
but he says Raymond is 10 times

smarter than I am and you know
you always want to hire that

smarter.

You want to hire people that are
smarter than you are, and it's

just we had a really lean team
that could do this, and so then

we're like that also gave us the
courage to say, okay, we're not

going to die if we don't.

You know, thanks to ETH going
up and thanks to our really

highly talented, high trust,
close team, we were able to not

take that money and we were able
to, you know, lean into our

vision because I know not
everybody can pass money up, but

we were able to because of that
reason, but also so I

understand the privilege of that
, but also it didn't feel like

we could either.

So it's like so both ways, and I
mean we've.

You know we're middle class
people, like you know.

It's like you don't know how
you're going to respond to money

until money comes.

Speaker 1: That's exactly yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't know
what's inside of you, right Like

, and I do like nice things, but
it didn't.

I don't.

I don't want nice things at the
cost of of this thing.

This thing is nothing.

So then we're like, what are we
going to do?

How are we going to get money,
how are we going to keep going?

And so then we decided to do a
NFT sale like public radio style

.

So both James and I listen to
public video.

That's our main source of
information and entertainment,

and so we subscribed to public
radio.

We buy public radio, clothing,
we you know the whole thing.

So I said why don't we, why
don't we just sell an NFT and

call it the patron NFT and sell
it and all they get for that is

this NFT and it's just a fan
badge and what they're saying.

And you can look at the website
.

It's still up because we
haven't sold out and that's okay

.

We don't show it and I'm not
trying to show it right now.

Speaker 1: I'm just trying to
know.

I didn't know about this until
you said, like I had no clue, I

was.

I'm trying to connect the dots,
so keep.

No, this is great.

This is great.

Speaker 2: So I'm not trying to
show, I'm not asking anybody to

buy it, I'm just telling the
story of how we did this.

Speaker 1: That's yeah, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 2: So anyway.

So then we said, ok, let's just
put this up.

So for one thing we did is we
gave everybody because we had

reached a million users.

This was October 31st.

We had reached a million users
and let's give everybody who has

connected, you know, gone
through Collabland and joined

for this many, this much time,
all these million people, they

can all get an NFT, and it's an
NFT, that's a, it's like a

fidget spinner, and so it's like
you can do.

You have it.

Speaker 1: I don't.

Speaker 2: I'll have to get you
one.

But yeah it's either like two
bucks, so you can definitely get

one, but it's like it's like a
little fidget spinner and it's a

three.

It's a 3D NFT and I was able to
work with an artist who I

really really like.

Like I said, I love being in
relationship with artists and so

I was able to like choose an
artist and like approach the

artist and say, hey, do you want
your NFT?

Like you know, would you like
to work with us on this project?

We're going to be giving it
away to a million people.

I don't know how many people
are going to collect it, but you

know this is an opportunity for
you and for us, and we love you

.

We want to give our, we want to
give our members something cool

.

Like I don't want to just give
them an NFT, Like I want to give

them something cool.

And she was making these toys,
like these 3D toys, and so I was

like that's a cool thing.

I want to say thank you to
everyone who's connected so far

and is a part of our larger
community.

I want to give them this
membership NFT, and so it is a

signal or symbol of that.

They were an early believer in
collab land by participating in

our communities, so gave it away
for free.

On Polygon we paid the gas.

Everything as many people want
to connect or collect them could

.

And then next to it I had a
patron NFT that said and it's

6.9 eighth.

And I said if you like collab
land, if you want to support

collab land, if you want collab
land to stay free, if you want

the individual and the community
to always, always be at the top

of our priorities, that we
serve you first, then buy this

NFT Like that's it.

It's just truly just a fan
badge, and we were able to raise

$3 million.

Speaker 1: That's insane.

And how many of those did you
sell?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know
right now they're still, like,

constantly being sold, but it's
over.

Speaker 1: That's so fucking
cool.

Speaker 2: Like that.

Speaker 1: And so it, because
that was like my, my next.

And so, when it comes to those
NFTs, is that what's still

funding you all today?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Wild.

Speaker 2: And so now we are
moving, we are going to be

decentralizing.

I don't know if we want to get
too much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah sure We'll be
decentralizing, and so we're

going to become a Dow, and so we
just need to get to that point,

like this $3 million has to
like get us to that point.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Where it's going to
be.

You know, participation is
going to equal ownership of

collab and the API is going to
be open and so that way, anybody

that wants to connect with.

So it's like with communities.

There's lots of different ways
to think about communities and

I'm just going with my thesis
here.

And my thesis here, based on
just what I've seen, is that the

best approach is for
communities to grow outward.

So you know, you start on
Discord and then people already

start putting their town hall
meetings on Notion, and then

they may have a single issue
discussion on Reddit, and they

may have a whatever, whatever,
and so it's like the community.

There's no such thing as just
one place for a community

Discord may remain the town hall
right.

You need a business park and
you need a restaurant and you

need a whatever clinic and you
need like right.

Speaker 1: Think about all the
community needs.

Speaker 2: They're going to want
to spread outward and there may

be parts of your community in
the in the future that only are

interested in one part of it,
like just want to note and

that's it, or maybe you're
having you know, you have your

own media arm.

And so it's like there's going
to be movies and TV shows and

whatever.

Like maybe the that's going to
be, can you have collab land

there?

And so that way, collab land is
almost like a connective tissue

on top, rather than it being
like oh, it's just one place for

one community.

Like that was not a plan, like
it's always been about growing,

and so, even though with collab
land it's like it's kind of an

innovative, it's not innovative,
but it's like you know, we're

working together with the
communities to learn how to best

serve them.

And so it's not like we came up
with this plan from the

beginning and we're just like,
oh, this is what we're going to

do and we're going to be the
connective tissue and it's going

to be this, that and the other
thing.

It's more like we're growing
with these communities, that

we're lucky enough to have
started, at least planted the

seeds, and so now we're watching
them grow and we're saying,

okay, how can we best serve you
and how we do to help you grow?

And so that's why you know, like
part of and no one ever said it

outright, but you know
monetizing user data we are

asked to, we're asked for user
data every single week, multiple

times, and their projects that
won't work with us, because they

want you know the wallet
addresses and we are.

We don't share any data with any
, any third party, and so

there's a lot of like oh, if you
won't give us that which we

should get, because we want to
monetize those people, or we

want their email address, or we
want their whatever, and we want

their discord.

We want their wallet address.

Like you know, they want all
this stuff and that's for their

own purposes, which is fine.

However, the world we're trying
to create is that you, kyle,

get to decide if you want to
share that information with

somebody.

I'm not.

I don't want to make money off
of that.

I don't want that to be the
world that we create here.

I want right.

If we're in a position to, like
I said, you know, move the

needle at all.

I want to move the needle
toward your life online mean

something.

Your, I'm talking to you.

That should mean something.

I should get compensated for
what I'm doing because my life

is here.

This is not my entertainment.

I live here and so I need to be
compensated for my

participation.

And I'm like I'm not saying you
need to pay me, but you know

what I'm saying Like that.

Speaker 1: I know I completely
get it yeah.

Speaker 2: But it's like date.

Your data is yours, it belongs
to you.

That's your asset.

That's your.

That's you.

That's you online.

It is your identity online.

Speaker 1: And here's the thing.

There's there's times where I,
like I've bought some of my most

favorite products from Facebook
ads.

Now, what I have like to give,
like but.

But there's a there's and that
was in a different period of my

life, but I'm because we're
having this conversation around,

like you know, decentralized
data, and like you know what

we're okay with.

But I love the fact that, like
y'all are not going to just

willingly give it up.

That's going to be an option
for people, because there's some

people that may want to only be
sold.

Speaker 2: They should.

They should you can decide if
you want to make money off of it

.

You should decide if you want
to participate in that.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: You're going to do it
and you can't.

I don't like the idea of using
a service and then knowing that

that service is now owns your
identity and can sell it willy

nilly against us and it's the
back door.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, 100%, and
I think that it's like it was

like you know, it's like you
know, it's like it.

What's really interesting and I
just came to this epiphany when

you were going through this is
that, like I feel like there's

very similar is like
communicating web three to

onboarding new people.

There's a there's also a weird
conversation, or like there's a

weird thing that gets lost in
translation, where it's like

giving users their data.

There's this assumption, I feel
like by a lot of people that

demand the data because we've
gotten so spoiled with it, is

that they're in number one,
they're entitled to it, but

number but number two, that
people don't want to give it out

.

Like I feel like giving people
a choice in a lot of people's

minds and correct me if I'm
wrong equals like oh, no one's

going to give it.

Then, if you give them the
choice, Like that, that's.

Speaker 2: I don't think that's
true at all.

Speaker 1: That's asinine.

Speaker 2: Because people want
to be sold things, to work

themselves and their identities
Like people's you know on

Twitter, like influencers.

They take money for ads, like
exactly.

Speaker 1: People want to be
sold things and like, as someone

who like, loves things, I want
to be sold something that is

niche to my interests.

Like I think that's in web two
it just got so far on the on the

up.

Like it's not that like ads are
bad.

It's not that personalized ads
are bad.

They're actually really good
because it's tailoring products

and services that I actually
want.

Like that's actually valuable,
but it's at the but I'm not

knowing what I'm giving up.

Like that's.

That's the problem.

It's my thing, yes.

Speaker 2: Yes.

However, but when I think of my
own experience on Facebook like

I was on it for 13 years and I
shared pictures and videos and

my children's songs and every
single thing and how much money

was made because of what I'm
sharing Like now they own it and

now they just can pass it
around any way they want, that's

right.

Passing around me.

They're making money off of me,
and if I want to be made money

off, at least I should get some
number one choice in the matter,

that's exactly what I'm saying,
though Money in it too, like

there should be, some split with
me, because it is me that

you're making money off of.

It's me online, what I'm
sharing.

That's me and that's.

There is no difference.

There's no difference between
me being there and sharing

everything on Facebook and me
talking to you at a party.

There is no difference.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 2: Like the fact that
they're acting in this idea,

that they're doing you this
favor and then you pay with your

data.

It's like they say you're the
product.

Right, if you're not paying,
then you're the product.

So how can we change that?

How can we make that different?

How can we flip the assumption
that just because you're the

product that you deserve to be
sold in that way.

And so then it's like for us
we're in a position, because we

have so many members, to say
we're giving it all back to the

individual.

Like you get all of your own
data and if you want to share it

with somebody, you can.

If you want to opt into some
advertising, you can.

That is your choice.

You can do that.

Right.

When admins say we want all the
wallet addresses for everybody

that is logged in through
Collabland, what I say is well,

put up a Google form in one of
your token granted access

channels.

Yep, and they're like well, we
don't want to do that because

people won't do that.

Speaker 1: Then there's your
answer yeah.

There's your answer no, but I,
like you gave me an opportunity

to like learn in public.

I mean, I guess, kind of public
this will be published later

but you know, like learning in
public because I, you know there

are a lot of products that I
was like kind of okay with, just

like being the product.

I'm like they gave me something
I wanted and that was the value

exchange.

But I think, where my mindset's
a little bit more in web three,

I get it.

But you know, like, when it
comes to JPEGs, I get it.

When it comes to certain things
like this, I get it.

When it comes to like I'm
thinking, I guess, more along

the lines of like physical
products and like how people

adopt these in the future.

You know, because not
everything's going to, not

everything truly needs to be web
three Like there's some

products that it's just like it
doesn't, or at least maybe at

this period in time, it's just
not mature enough.

It doesn't make sense.

It would feel like a cash grab.

But you gave me an opportunity
to learn in public where it's

like they am like, well, if I am
the product and they're using

this product to make money, why
shouldn't I at least have some

sort of kickback at the very
least, as say you know, because,

like you should you should and
it's, you know, it's interesting

that they've made enough money.

Speaker 2: Let's stop thinking
that we're that, it's even or

it's equal.

Like that they're giving us a
service.

Let's stop pretending that
they're not getting tremendous

value from it and that we're
also not contributing to their

success.

And that's the thing about
Collablan too All these people

who use Collablan.

They are participants in our
success.

They are participants in our
company.

Right, we are that way for
every product.

I mean any of these social
media platforms.

Speaker 1: That's yeah.

No, I love that Like that.

I love when I don't have an
answer to a response, and so you

gave me that opportunity so I
enjoyed that.

Well, okay, cause, like, I
think it's something that's

discreet, like it's something
that web three is really good at

is like, because in web two it
was discouraged to learn in

public.

Like, learning in public and
learning in real time is one of

the best things that this place
has to offer.

You know, new ideas,
introducing new ways of thinking

, and that's and that's how it
happens Making mistakes, making

things right, whatever the case
may be.

Speaker 2: And.

Speaker 1: I see I see more of
that in web three.

So I just I wanted to like, I
guess, just acknowledge that,

especially for people, because
what's wild about my audience is

that I have people who are
crypto native, I have people who

are on the fence, I have people
who are in esports, and I'm

sure I have some people who are
just listening just because they

like what I like, they just
like want to support whatever

I'm doing, but they may not have
any clue about what web three

even is.

So I like to like zoom out a
little bit to that last crowd,

to where to make this more of a
safer on ramp.

Where is it going to happen all
the time?

No, but it's happened more in
web three, where I watch people

make mistakes in public or learn
new things in public or have

disagreements in public and have
their train of thought

challenged and not have this
emotional, like pissing war, you

know, of like who's right and
who's wrong.

That, to me, is one of my most
favorite parts about this is

that there are so many people
that like are incredibly

intelligent and have a lot of
good ideas, but they're also not

afraid to admit, you know, when
something may be a limiting

belief, or maybe something in an
area that they, like, maybe not

have been comfortable sharing
before.

So I don't know.

I love that I had the
opportunity to do that, so thank

you for that.

And so, going back to you know,
going back to Colette, like,

when it comes to the future of
this, you know, like you

mentioned the Dow and you meant
is that that seems like the

obvious next step when it comes
to this Dow, at least with your

vision, you know, I'm sure, like
because we have these ideas and

then, typically, maybe that
happens, maybe it doesn't, maybe

it doesn't happen until another
five years.

What is it that most excites
you about the DAO?

What is it that you personally,
as a DAO contributor, want to

accomplish the most?

Speaker 2: What excites me the
most about it is just seeing the

innovation that's going to come
out of the ways people use

collab land, because it's a
community tool.

If someone says, oh, we want to
integrate with what new

platform, new VR AR platform,
who knows what's going to happen

in the future?

Then the DAO can approve it and
then pay for it and set a

bounty and it can happen.

I don't want to be, and we
don't want to be, the

gatekeepers for what this can be
.

What excites me the most is
just seeing what happens, and

seeing what happens, because
we're just as excited as

everybody else.

This is an opportunity.

Like crypto gives us all a
chance to work together and have

some incentive.

Alignment with finances that is
the sticky part that is

necessary.

Speaker 1: That's why people
come.

Speaker 2: We say a lot people
come for the casino and stay for

the revolution Without the
casino.

They're not getting into it.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 2: Climate change.

We all know we need to work on
it.

There's probably ways to
already work on it, but there is

an incentive alignment to work
on it and so nobody works on it.

It's like we have that money
unlocked, that people, whatever

come for that, come for the
candy.

That's right.

We get all these bright minds
together and really nothing is

stronger without everybody
working together.

There can be no stronger
experiment For us.

It's like when people say, oh,
who are your competitors, or do

you feel competitive with them,
or them or them?

We don't feel competitive with
anybody.

Number one why would we be
competitive when we've been

begging for what to come here?

Now that you're here, we're
supposed to be competitive about

it.

No, please, we need more and
more people coming here.

We need more and more people
building here, because we want

everybody to come here.

There's room for everybody,
Like Wagni and Wagni is real.

It's like we are all going to
make it.

If we all work together and
don't have this zero sum

thinking and we have a positive
sum thinking, we're all going to

make it.

We're here to bring in, usher
in the new people that are

coming in, so everybody doesn't
have to use Collablin.

There's room for everybody to
use everything, Right.

So I'm just really excited
about what it can be, what will

happen, what it can be really
and, like I said earlier, about

participation and ownership.

It's like we're able, not
taking a series A and doing this

community valuation yes.

Let's pull out that Saying we
don't care if you think we're

worth this much money, we want
to know what our community

thinks we're worth.

And that you build first and
you prove yourself and you make

yourself valuable and then you
let them decide what you're

worth.

Speaker 1: That's right, the
market decides.

The market decides what you're
worth 100% Right.

Speaker 2: And if we can do that
.

People just saw that and the
few people that saw that.

That gives them another way to
think about their own

fundraising.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 2: And that it's okay to
walk away from a high valuation

, because that's bullshit anyway
.

What high valuation?

Let's stop putting priority on
that and let's start putting

priority on serving this new
world we're trying to build.

Speaker 1: Exactly, I fucking
love that, and I think this is

probably a good place to start
wrapping things up Like this,

like I want to end on such a
strong note Anjali, anjali.

Speaker 2: Anjali.

Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to
get it the third time.

I'm going to get it right.

Absolutely.

It has been an absolute treat.

This is like I didn't know what
we were going to talk about,

but this is the same feeling
that I had anticipated was going

to happen, just based off the
limited interaction that we had

in Austin a few weeks ago.

So this has been so much fun it
has been.

I don't feel like I think this
is the beginning of something.

I don't feel like this is the
end, but I cannot wait to see

what you guys continue to do.

Like you guys are such a strong
team, you are such a pillar

Like there is.

It may not be the sexiest tool,
but you are the enablers of

what's being like, what is
bringing people in and keeping

people here.

Like y'all are such an
important part of this ecosystem

and I hope you realize that and
I love what y'all do.

So again, yes, Thank you for
wanting to listen.

Speaker 2: I really appreciate
you including me.

Speaker 1: Yes, I couldn't think
of anyone more fitting for this

, because this has been an
absolute blast.

So if people want to learn more
about you, where can they find

you?

Where can they support the
product?

How do people use Collablin?

If they want to get in contact
with you, how do they do that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good
question.

If you're in any NFT
communities right now, you

probably have used Collablin.

We don't really have much
marketing.

If you know who we are, then
you know.

If you don't know what we are,
then you probably don't need us.

So that's kind of been where
it's where we've been at.

But Collablin on Twitter is
collab underscore, lab

underscore.

We just started with that ID
but someone else owned Collablin

and then we bought the other
Collablin but now we're kind of

like nostalgic about this,
anyway.

So I'm always like on the other
Collablin, no spaces or

anything.

I have a note that says go to
the other Collablin, that's

right.

Anyway, and then on Twitter, I'm
Dama De Roca, which is

D-A-M-A-D-E-R-O-C-A.

That's Lady from Boulder, I
live in Boulder, I love that,

and that's it.

That's where to find us.

Speaker 1: Love it.

I'll put those links in the
show notes.

If people want to watch any
previous content or watch

anything, see what y'all do and,
of course, if they want to get

in contact with you, because I
imagine there's going to be a

few people.

Speaker 2: Yeah,
Angeliettecollabland.

Speaker 1: Yes, hang out for
just a moment.

Once this records, once this
ends, but this has been an

absolute treat.

Thank you so much again.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Shiller Vaulted

Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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