Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the

Schiller Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Ruben Wu, a

multidisciplinary artist who
uses technology and the concept

of time and space to help tell
compelling stories about the

world we inhabit.

In this episode, we discussed
the difference between visual

language and artistic style, the
unique collaboration of human

and machine, linking digital and
physical art, and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Ruben.

All right, we are recording GM.

Ruben.

How are you, man, doing?

Well, thanks, how are you, you
know, doing good.

We chatted a little bit offline
.

I think we're having some
similar weather patterns, so

it's been a comfy morning.

It's been a little windy.

Took the dog out to do her
thing and, yeah, came in and had

a cup of coffee and got ready
for this.

How about you?

Speaker 2: Pretty good.

It's cold and wet outside, so I
have not ventured outside yet.

I've just been inside and just
kind of responding to my emails

and getting ready for this.

So, yeah, happy to be here.

Speaker 1: Amazing man.

Yeah, me too, and I'm happy
that this was able to happen.

I know sometimes during the
holidays people it can tend to

be a bit busy or people travel
and do a lot of different things

, but usually for the holidays
it kind of slows down.

So happy to be able to do this,
man, and thanks for making the

time.

It's been a long time admirer,
first time enjoyer, so I guess

just say long time admirer,
first time caller, but you know

that's really the way that works
.

But yeah, glad to have you on
here and yeah, just have always

been an admirer of your story
and what you do and kind of how

you operate.

I think it's incredibly unique,
so we love to kind of just like

hop right into it.

I like to start with, like a
pretty you know, the only

question, you know.

One of the questions I like to
ask is super broad and nebulous,

but just who is Ruben Wu?

Speaker 2: Okay, well, it always
depends on who asks and depends

on who I'm talking to.

I mean, I guess there's a short
answer and a long answer.

The short answer is I'm a
photographer and then the long

answer is you know, I see myself
as an artist working in the

medium of photography, amongst
other things.

Usually I just say photographer
or artist.

Before I was a photographer, I
was a full time musician and so

you know that has overlapped
quite a lot.

So I make music as well as
photography, as well as moving

image.

So it's always been quite
difficult for me to pin down and

to be specific about what I do,
especially when I'm explaining

what I do to people, to other
people.

So usually, in general terms,
I'd say I'm an artist.

Speaker 1: I like it.

I mean, that's something I've
noticed throughout a lot of your

work, and something that I
recently didn't notice until

this year, or that I didn't
realize, is that all of the

audio in your art is all
produced by you and I didn't

know.

I didn't know that really until
the umberpiece from Clickcreate

.

So that was a really cool
experience and I got to hop up

on stage and get to hear a
little bit about your process.

That was a really cool.

It's really cool and because,
like with me, I'm a huge, I

think audio adds a certain,
there's just a certain amount of

, I guess, depth or just a
certain amount of umph that

audio adds to, adds to art.

So it's just as an audio file.

It's something I very much
appreciated and got to ask.

Like you mentioned, you were,
like you mentioned, you were a

musician.

Are you still in that band?

Isn't it called Lady Tron?

Lady Tron, that's right.

That's right.

How did that?

I'm very curious, like number
one, are you still in that?

And I guess the second part of
that is how did that come about

and what?

I guess?

What's your interest in music?

Speaker 2: So I was full time
with Lady Tron for well over 10

years and we I formed the band
with you know a few friends a

really long time ago.

It was like 2000.

Speaker 1: Got it.

Speaker 2: Got it.

That was when I was living in
Liverpool.

I was doing a masters in
industrial design at the time,

but I was also kind of side
hustling as a DJ, you know,

djing parties and clubs and
stuff.

And then I started getting into
like producing music using

keyboards and synthesizers.

And you know, my friend and I,
you know, thought, okay, we'll

start a band, we'll start making
the music that we want to

listen to, that we want to hear,
and you know that became a band

of four people.

We released our first single and
that got enemy single of the

week and we kicked off our
careers really and we started

just touring all over the world.

You know, we were very lucky to
be able to just start doing

that.

Just from day one we did a few
small UK tours but then we just

went and did world tours after
that and this was just, you know

, this was even, you know,
before our first album came out

and at the time I was full time
as an industrial designer and I

was taking my holidays, my time
off, to go touring with the band

.

And you know, taking vacation
to do rock and roll kind of

takes it out on you and me.

I was like, you know this is
not really doing my design

career much good and I thought,
okay, I'd better step away from

design and just go full time in
music.

So I went ahead and did that
for 10 years and we released

like six studio albums Actually
it's seven now.

I've left the band now
officially just because I'm so

busy with my other career.

But you know, we did it all.

We did like world tours.

We had music on movies,
computer games, video games,

collaborated with Christina
Aguilera, wrote some of them.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: I saw that.

That's so wild.

How did that happen?

Speaker 2: Well, she just got in
touch with us one day and, like

you know, I want to make this
album of, like, cool music that

you know that I've been, you
know I've been listening to a

lot of your stuff and I want to
step into that world.

And so, you know, we started
like writing together and

eventually we you know, me and
my bandmate Daniel we went over

to her house in Beverly Hills,
which is actually it's Ozzy

Osbourne's old house.

Oh, my word, you could,
actually you could still see the

inverted upside down crosses on
the door knobs.

It's incredible.

Yeah, we spent a few days of
her and, just you know, put some

tracks down and then ended up
on an album that came out in I

think it was 2008.

And it's pretty, you know,
pretty amazing and surreal

experience.

Speaker 1: I can imagine and
from the through line that it

sounds, you know, it sounds like
there was almost a it was like

a right place, right time kind
of thing where you know because

I hear a lot of musician stories
usually there's a pretty pretty

like long period of struggling
before you really ever get to do

anything that y'all got to do.

Like you know, it sounds like
from a pretty short time from

when you guys started.

You guys got recognition early.

You know you're able to go on
tour pretty early, before the

album even came out.

I mean, that's just not a
typical story that I hear.

And then it's challenging, you
know, and so to hear that that

kind of was like was that like
the kickstart?

Were you taking photographs
before then?

Or was this kind of like the
intro to doing that?

I guess, when did you discover
taking photographs?

Speaker 2: I was actually,
before the band else, more into

drawing, and I think my, my, my
career in design was actually

basically born out of my passion
for drawing and and art.

It was like a way of me, you
know, pretty good at Designing

stuff in 3d and making, you know
, making things work and fixing

things, and so my output at that
point was just drawing and and

still life drawing illustration.

I was doing a lot of the bands
album covers and single covers,

but that took time and, sure,
sure, when you know, when you're

on tour, it's a very transient
life where you're going from

city to city and seeing all
these places and life moves fast

.

And so I decided I'll pick up a
camera and and I never really

had an interest in photography
before.

I mean, I did a little course in
kind of film photography in

university, but I think once my
eye was opened by travel and

seeing all of these incredible
places, taking pictures of them

started out as a kind of travel
diary, but then it became

something a lot more, a Lot more
involved creatively, and I

decided I'm gonna, I'm gonna
experiment, I'm gonna get into

film photography again and Think
about different types of films,

different lenses, different
techniques and Seeing all of

these different places was like
the impetus for that.

So I kind of drove my passion
in this medium.

I got it.

So I Got interested into
photography, just via, via

travel, and that was.

I guess while I'm, you know,
while you're touring, you're

basically playing the same songs
every day.

It stops being creative in that
way, and so that we became that

hobby for me, that new creative
output.

Speaker 1: I I guess I've never
really thought about it like

that, you know, and when I hear
you know, like when I go watch a

band on tour, it's yeah, it's
usually the same song with a

same song list, with a few
exceptions, you know, I guess

I've never really thought about
it like that.

So I think it's it's really
cool to hear how it's One of

those things where one path kind
of leads to another and it

sounds like that was like the
way to Feel rejuvenated, to feel

like refreshed, to feel, you
know, like you're creating

something new at the time.

It's really fascinating, man,
because I look at a, look at a

lot of your work.

Was there always like a?

I guess maybe I'm jumping ahead
too much, but I think just just

following my curiosity here is I
notice a lot of places that you

know are in your work or like
very desolate.

You know they're very like
there there's a lot of space.

You know there's a lot of.

There's not just much going on,
you know.

So I'd love to kind of know
what kind of is your you know,

fascination with space?

I guess is a word, is there, is
there something that that does

for you?

Is there a certain, I guess
just curiosity, or when did that

Come to fold?

Because I just kind it's kind
of a thing that I Notice as I

browse your work.

Speaker 2: Um, I Think it comes
from A childhood passion of just

being out in nature.

I grew up in the UK Pretty close
to all of these national parks

a lot different, a lot of
different national parks just a

few hours from where I lived in
Liverpool, and there were we

used to go as a family camping
and hiking, and and that was,

you know, as a as an introverted
, awkward kid who didn't have

many friends, who was you know
shit at sports, this was my kind

of happy place, you know.

It was a place right now,
completely free, and I was.

You know, I felt I was always
like surprised at like how vast

these places are and and just
you could just go anywhere.

There were no fences.

You just, you know you can,
just you can just hike and hike

and hike, which is, you know,
something that I really relished

as a kid and I think you know
at that point I was Really

enjoying these natural places,
but also pouring over the pages

of National Geographic, looking
at images of Utah and and the

Atacama Desert in Chile or you
know, incredible kind of

otherworldly desert places not
in the UK.

So I was kind of dreaming of
that, and so the first time I

was able to go to the USA and
and tour, we kind of, you know,

drove through all these places.

Now's the first time I actually
got to see them and I realized

that, you know, I Couldn't, I
Couldn't just like watch and

move on to the next place.

I knew that I had to kind of,
you know, be creative about it,

and I think, you know, my hobby
was my way of kind of expressing

that passion.

I think, going going back to To
the earlier point, I Think it's

important to listen, to Listen
to your inner voice.

You know when, when you're
doing something, let's say if

you're, if you have a hobby.

You know, while I was doing my
training and design, my hobby

was doing music.

My hobby was like DJing and
record collecting and to music,

and so when I Joined the band, I
got into that, but it also

became my full-time activity.

Hmm, so that became my
full-time activity, and then I

developed my passion for
photography, which was a hobby.

You know, it's like a side
hustle and I felt that was my

voice, that was my, that was,
that was a calling.

And so, fast forward, ten years
later, photography is now my,

is now my main thing.

So it's yeah, I've interesting
to think about these, these

inner voices, that Kind of
formed through hobbies, you know

, that kind of show what your
passions are and and what your

future might be.

Speaker 1: Really thanks for
sharing that.

I mean it's I Feel like it can
take a little while.

It's something that I think
really helped me as well and I I

can appreciate the the one you
know you had.

You had your career as a as an
industrial designer.

Then music was your passion.

You did that on the weekend and
then photography was your

passion and that became your
full thing.

Do you, do you have a side
hustle now, or do kind of you

know now that you've kind of
found, like photography, does

any sort of side hustle just get
incorporated into the art that

you create, or is there another
side hustle that you have right

now?

I'm kind of curious about that,
because that's a it's a

fascinating concept of listening
to that inner voice.

Speaker 2: I Don't have a side
hustle which is anything

different from photography right
now, got it.

But I think you might be right.

I think there are Things that I
get interested in which I can

incorporate into my, my
photography practice.

Hmm, I think that's really
interesting because a Lot of my

interests.

I do feel that Visual art is my
calling and I don't think I'm

gonna be doing anything else
Other than that for the rest of

my life.

It's definitely my groove.

But I do think that there are
things which take my interest,

which I can incorporate and kind
of think of In new ways to

combine with my visual art.

You know things like.

You know technological things
Like drones, for instance.

You know that that was
something that I was able to.

You know that I got really
excited about and I was able to

combine that with my photography
in the inner In a different way

to produce something, you know,
quite fun and exciting.

Yeah, I think that I think that
new ideas, truly truly original

ideas, are really really
difficult to to come by these

days.

But I think if you're able to
take two existing Things and

kind of put them together in new
ways, that that can inspire new

ideas in small ways.

Yeah, I.

Speaker 1: Like that because I
look on your.

I think it's I'm glad we're
here, because I look at your

website and it had.

You have Photography, you have
motion, you have sound, you know

you have there's all these
different, it seems like all

these different culminations
that all come together for a

visual, you know, and sometimes
an audio visual experience, and

I think that's it's, it's really
it's.

It's never been easier To
follow that voice, but it's also

never been harder, and I'll
explain what I mean by that is

that, you know, we have
Internet's, this vast canvas or

this vast, you know, space of
information that we have, and

we're more connected Than ever,
but I also feel like we're also

more, at the same time, there's
a duality, that there's a,

there's a desire to like conform
, or there's like a desire to

like do what everyone else is
doing, or to only show, you know

you're to maybe not follow that
voice, to follow the voice of a

big crowd of people versus just
that individual.

I think for me, personally, it
it's been a, it's been a

struggle, because I very similar
to you, I love technology, I

love everything about it, you
know, but it's it's hard to

ignore the, the downside and
some of the social pressures

that come from having the whole
internet in the palm of your

hand Every single day for and if
I'm being honest, especially as

someone in the crypto space for
most of the day, you know it's

it's a bit of an information
overload.

So I can really appreciate the
kind of Following that and

finding ways to just incorporate
that and to make like one, like

one unique experience.

And that was that was something
that I noticed in I Think there

was a video that I watched where
you were talking about.

The world has been so heavily
documented, it's so well

documented To this point, and so
you know, in at least this is

just my take on like what you're
doing is to try to find a way

to make that unique.

How do you do something
different?

How do you, how do you make
that different for someone to

experience?

And I've just always found that
really fascinating, because a

lot of people can go take a
picture in the desert, you know,

but to do something where you
feel something Different than

the hundreds of years, you know
the hundred years, photography

probably you probably know
better than me, but you get, you

go, and I'm saying the many
years of documented

documentation it's hard to, it's
hard to create something

different and to me that really
only comes by, I guess,

following that, that random
inner voice.

I guess it's not random, but
yeah, the inner voice, I think

it comes from being different.

Speaker 2: You know, if, if you
feel, if you kind of embrace

your own differences that you
have between others, from others

, then it allows you to Do Think
in a way that fewer people do.

And I think in my case I Didn't
really enjoy being at school.

I I never.

This is probably.

This is pretty similar to a lot
of artists, I know.

You know, we didn't fit in.

We always felt different.

You know, I got to the point
where, you know, I always wanted

to fit in but I got to the
point where I was like I'm never

gonna fit in.

You know, other people just
don't like the stuff I like and

and then I started to just think
I'm just gonna embrace that and

I started just not like the
mainstream.

You know, whatever the crowds
went for, I went for the other

thing.

I, yeah, I found my own thing
that no one else has heard of.

You know I going out and finding
that record in the record store

that no one else has found or
has listened to and being the

first person to play that to a
crowd in a club, you know it's,

it's a special kind of you know,
I think I was able to feel to

take that feeling of not fitting
in and use that to my advantage

later on in life, and I think
it's it's allowed me to kind of

think about things in a slightly
different way, and I think

that's, you know, that's
something that will stay with me

for the rest of my life.

So it's it's definitely
difficult with you know.

It feels strange being, you
know, a solitary artist who

enjoys being alone all the time,
but also be a part of a really

close-knit community online.

I think they're both two
wonderful things and it's

definitely a balance that you
have to strike yeah, I mean

because we're inherently humans,
aren't just it's in our biology

, we're inherently social
creatures.

Speaker 1: You know, some people
have different spectrums of

that, but like at the, at the
core level, like we, we need

human connection to survive, you
know, and it's, I guess, the,

the that's real.

Like I am, I really loved your,
your bit there because it's

something I can relate to.

I never, especially in high
school, I never really felt like

I fit in with what anyone else
was doing.

I wanted to do the opposite.

I was a, I was a gamer.

You know I am a gamer, I'm
still a game.

I love games, you know.

But like I never really felt on
the same beat with the

conversation that was happening.

I'm very it's interesting, you
know this.

Like what we're doing now, you
know now, now they look back

through my childhood, what we're
doing now is something.

This is like having a
one-to-one conversation.

I think was something that I
just thoroughly enjoyed, more

than anything else.

I was very much a.

I don't like group conversations
, I don't like parties.

I like if it's a party, it's a
get together of like three to

five people that I know really
well, you know, and it just that

was really always my comfort
zone and is never the rest of

the world, never really fully
clicked.

And gaming was the first online
community that I felt a part of

.

And I'm really, you know,
especially as I just crossed the

chasm of 30, you know, I feel I
guess there's a part of me

that's finally getting more
comfortable with.

What you just talked about is
like really fully leaning into

that, that just kind of like,
hey man, what if I am a bit

different, you know?

So I'm curious to hear in that
journey that you just started to

embrace that.

How long did that take for you
to get to that point?

Or like, I guess, what were
some of the key moments that

maybe, if there was a key moment
at all or moments that kind of

led you to, to really leaning
into that, or what made you lean

into it?

Speaker 2: I think it started
that when I was a teenager, but

I didn't really know.

You know it was a.

It was kind of a path that I'd
started, that I started as a

teenager.

So I'm still struggling with my
self identity.

For many years, and I think,
you know, through university for

sure, and and I think
throughout my my time as a

musician as well, I definitely,
I definitely was was searching

for something over those years.

Doing music was was very
fulfilling and the closest thing

at the time, you know, to to
what my calling was.

But there was still something
missing.

I knew in my heart that I was a,
you know, a very much a visual

person and you know, I think
that's why I took on photography

, because I was missing that
element.

And so once I had started
getting in, you know, getting to

grips with photography and then
into the medium of video and

you know, taking photography to
different, you know different

levels, like time-lapse
photography and long exposure

photography, and then eventually
combining that with with music

and sound design, everything
started to make sense and these

were just.

They started as experiments
that I did, you know my

photography had got to the point
where I was like, oh, I can do

these really cool things and I
can use these drones to do these

things.

What if I did this and then
brought my, brought the music

and the sound design into the
same thing and create little

looping episodic art pieces?

Yeah, yeah, and then it was at
that point things started to

make sense, and that sounds like
starting to make sense because

everything that I had done in my
life started to come full

circle to produce one thing
music, photography, moving image

and also my passion for
industrial design.

You know, putting things
together and kind of hacking

things and using technology in
different ways.

All those things came together
and so all these kind of pieces

that I made, I just uploaded to
them to Instagram and they were

like my most popular pieces and
that I really, really enjoyed

doing them, because they tapped
into all of these different

parts of me and but there was no
at the time, there was no real,

you know, benefit to my
business.

You know, I couldn't print them
, I couldn't really license them

because they were so artistic
and so specific, and so they

were just sitting on my
Instagram gathering likes and

then then NFTs came along and
then suddenly, you know they,

they kind of became something
much bigger, yeah, from.

From something that was just an
experiment, it developed into a

new visual language, which
became something way, way more

significant, I think.

Speaker 1: So it was kind of,
you know, really strange for

those things to happen and to
create something that ultimately

made a lot of sense and a lot
of meaning for me man, I was

gonna you know that what you
answered the question I was

gonna ask, kind of how web3 and
NFTs kind of played a role as

your you know as an artist, or
how that changed.

You know the trajectory of your
career and it sounds like you

just answered that you know and
a lot of you know because I.

That's the fascinating thing
for me is that it a lot like for

me, a lot of artists that I
that I see that maybe have been

practicing before this.

It almost just seems like a
tool that was missing but no one

really knew how to define like
what was missing or like why it

was.

You know.

And so something that you
touched on there, though that

I'm really fascinated about and
I know it's something you're

really passionate about is is
visual language.

You know, like visual language
over style, like I know there's

a lot of, there's a lot of
people that there's a lot of

debate on that on Twitter,
unlike what that means.

So I guess I'd really like to
double click on that for a bit,

or I guess linger on it is like
what?

How would you define like
visual language, or how would

you compare visual language to a
style?

I guess is the is the question
that I have.

Speaker 2: I think they can.

You know, when you're talking
about it, they can basically be

the same thing, but I think,
when I when I'm thinking about

what the two actually means,
using the term visual language,

it's just a much more powerful
way of describing the art that

you make, because it is a
language, and with a language

you're able to not just not just
create one thing, but you're

able to articulate many
different ideas and meanings and

for it not feel, you know, like
the same thing each time.

It can manifest itself
differently just by using, you

know, the same tools in your
toolbox.

It is like, you know, color
palette, it's composition, it's

cadence.

There are so many things that
you can kind of combine and and

you basically find this over the
years of just creating and

creating things that you that
just pop up time and time again

in the work that you create.

Yet that's your visual language
and then the more you lean into

that, the more developed it
becomes and the more adept you

are at telling different stories
using that language.

And I think you know, when you
think about style, it's like you

know it feels a lot more on the
surface.

You know it's like saying
something in a, in a cool

English accent or something you
know, I think for me it's this

way it's.

It's a much more general, much
more powerful term to think

about when I'm thinking about
the art that I create.

Speaker 1: I like that.

I've often struggled in some of
the conversations that I've had

and I tried to find talk about
things that I knew were there,

but I just like that we're
missing but I didn't really know

what it was.

Is that you know?

Sometimes when I ask artists,
you know I guess I try that's.

The question I was asking is
like you know what is your

visual language?

But I kept trying to.

Style was really the only word
that came to mind.

I think it's just the first.

It just is what comes up
naturally.

So the way I would, you know,
kind of go around that is you

know, like what is your current
style to?

You know, like today, how would
you define your style?

You know, that was kind of my
way around it, but I remember,

you know, like the way you
present that.

That to me sounds like something
a little bit more personal and

a little bit more unique and
something that comes from,

something that comes from within
.

And I'm fishing a little bit
here only because I very, you

know, I found my path.

I found, you know, my path
through life in a really

interesting way, through getting
sober.

You know, it was a pretty, it
was a pretty personal internal

experience that I had.

You know your art is very your
art feels very personal and and

what I've learned if I've
learned anything from just being

here and talking to you know a
bunch of artists is that you

know the external world has a
lot of influence, but mostly it

comes from a, from a inner
desire.

You know, I guess, was there a,
I guess really what caused you

to go inward, or was did you
always go inward as more of kind

of like an introverted person?

I would just kind of love to
know if there's, yeah, maybe

anything personal that caused
you to search inward versus

external.

Speaker 2: I think at all it's.

It's always come from within,
as an introverted person, it's

definitely how I see the world
and how I see that manifesting

in my visual art and also in my
music.

So, a painter that I really
admire Casper David Friedrich.

He talked about his you know
how he paints and his, his

visual language and his, the
themes that are, you know,

prevalent in a lot of his images
.

He was you know he did that the
paint famous painting, wanda

above the Sea of Fog.

You know the rear view shot of
the hiker on the rocky outcrop

and and a lot of like clouds and
fog before him.

And you know he was also the
first person to paint a winter

scene which felt bleak and felt
cold and felt brutal, because

that's how it is, you know,
before him like warmth and and

people having fun and, you know,
happy scene.

Yeah, he talked about his work
as as taking something that only

the inner eye can see and
expressing that outwardly in his

art and being able to share
that to other people, and so I

definitely think that that's
that's exactly what I try to do

with my photography, and it was
always difficult with

photography, because the camera
just takes a picture of what?

What it sees, sure, and, and so
I was always battling with how

do I take what my inner eye sees
and put, put that into

photograph, and so this is why I
was always experimenting now is

experimenting with film.

I was experimenting with long
exposure techniques,

experimenting with different
types of lighting, you know, to

create something that is inside
my.

You know that I am imagining
but in the real world, and so it

really started.

I think it really became a
thing when I started

experimenting with lights on the
drone, where I was able to

create something that had never
been seen before.

You know, I've always wanted to
create pictures that no one has

seen before, or pictures that
haven't been made before, or

show things familiar things in a
completely unfamiliar light,

and being able to modify a drone
and modify a light to create

something that I've always just
imagined about was was pretty

important.

It was very important stage in
my career.

Speaker 1: I'm starting to see
the, the elements of where your

career as an industrial designer
comes in.

You know, talking about
modifying the drones, modifying,

modifying the light, that's
super, that's super fascinating

and I and I really like the, I
really like the, the callback to

, to that painting around, kind
of being a little bit bold to

show something a little bit more
bleak or cold or just real, you

know, or authentic.

You know, and it's really cool
to kind of hear that that

inspiration that drove you to, I
guess drove you inward, because

inward is not necessarily.

Again, kind of going back to a
previous part of our

conversation, it's real easy to
not do that at times.

It's for it's it's it's
sometimes can be challenging to,

to trust that that one voice
versus the, the thousands that

you, that you see online, and
I'd love to, I guess I want to

kind of hang around and talk
about the, the light, for a

little longer.

You know, I guess what does?

I know art is very much about
what, the questions that the

viewer asks after consuming.

You know, I've learned that, at
least in the couple years that

I've been here, is that arts
more about questions versus

answers.

When it comes to the light, you
know for you, I guess what it

does that represent.

Does the light represent the
same thing in all of your

pictures or does it have it take
on a different meaning

depending on the piece that you
create?

Speaker 2: I think it does have
a different meaning depending,

depending on each piece.

Sometimes I use the light as a,
you know, as a shaping tool.

You know just being really
technical about it.

I'm thinking of an Ansel Adams
with my drone light at night on

a place that you know isn't
possible with the Sun or the

moon, because the Sun and the
moon don't go there.

So I'm able to, rather than
wait for the right moment, I'm

actually creating that moment
with my drone, so I'm able to

use that light as a way to show
a subject matter and to draw

your eye to it, using this
otherworldly light, you know,

using this way of showing it in
a way that no one's seen before.

And then other times I've been
using it to actually literally

paint light, where I'm using the
drone as a paintbrush or a

light brush, where you can see
the trail of light as the drone

flies.

And I actually discovered that
by accident, just because, while

I was using the light to shape
the light onto things, I noticed

that the lines left behind by
the drone were really, really

interesting.

It had a kind of land art feel
to it, like a light installation

, and they were kind of random.

I was flying in all sorts of
different.

I wasn't even thinking about
how I was flying the drone, I

was just getting it from place
to place.

But I thought, wow, this is
cool.

And then what if I fly in a
straight line?

What if I fly it in a circle?

What if I try and make these
shapes in the sky using the

drone as a pencil or a
paintbrush?

So that became something that
was quite different from what I

was doing before, where the
drone itself was a paintbrush

and that became the focal point
of the art rather than the thing

I was trying to light.

Speaker 1: That's fascinating
man.

Yeah, because when I look at it
it's just that's.

The rest of the location is
secondary.

I can't really help it.

I guess I can't really help but
just be immediately drawn to

that.

And thanks for sharing the
story about how that came to be.

Very similar to Bob Ross.

Just everything usually is a
happy little accident, it is.

Speaker 2: Even the use of
artificial light was an accident

for me.

Wow, it was back in Almost 10
years ago, 2014,.

I was taking the time lapse
video in Trona Pinnacles in

California, like a really crazy
desert landscape with Pinnacles

coming up into the sky, and it
was at night.

I was taking a time lapse image
with my camera and then, all of

a sudden, this truck just
drives into the landscape with

its lights fully on, lighting
everything up, and I was like my

fucking time lapse is ruined.

I just kind of sat there.

I didn't want to draw attention
to myself, because what is a

pickup truck doing in the middle
of the night in the desert

landscape?

So I was like nope, I'm just
going to stay here.

And the camera just kept
shooting and I realized

afterwards that the headlights
illuminated the Pinnacles in a

way that blew my mind.

This was something that no sun
or no moon could ever do, and I

realized using artificial light
was a way of literally creating

my own moment, my own world that
couldn't be replicated using

nature, and doing it all on
camera too.

That was fascinating.

Speaker 1: That's a really cool
man.

Wow, yeah, because I feel like
a lot of at least the

photography that I've seen.

There's a lot of focus on how
the natural light affects either

the subject, the landscape
affects the person, so it's a

pretty bold.

It's pretty interesting to look
at how artificial light in, I

guess, the physical world has
that impact as well.

I'm just, yeah, there's a few
things that are stewing around

and that makes me wonder, or I
guess that brings me to another

topic of when it comes to
artificial light, I want to jump

the bridge over to artificial
intelligence as well.

There's obviously a lot of very
similar to I look at, before I

get into this, the charge around
.

It is very similar to the charge
around how I viewed crypto when

it first came around in 2021,
where I'm of the belief of the

more outrage there is towards
something, the more innovative

that it really is and the
stronger the staying power is,

because it's undoing a lot of
things that people have gotten

cozy with.

So I preface that that's really
kind of how I view artificial

intelligence is that there's
strong opinions on both sides

and I don't think anyone's wrong
.

I think there are a lot of it's
valid, but, as an artist who

has been creating for decades,
how do you view this, like, how

do you kind of view this coming
into the world?

I guess, what is it that?

Have you, number one, have you
incorporated that in any of your

work, or have you experimented,
or what are some of the fun

ways you've experimented maybe
not necessarily officially

incorporated it, and I guess,
how do you view that in the next

I don't want to put it too long
of a time horizon because

things change so fast but even
in just like the next year or

two, how do you kind of think
about it?

Speaker 2: I have incorporated
it into my work via a

collaboration that I did with an
AI artist called Yeni Passenin.

She's in Helsinki, in Finland.

I first found her work a couple
of years ago two years ago and

it was like nothing I've seen
before and it wasn't straight AI

.

It was something beyond that,
more complex and more

sophisticated than that, and
from getting to know her and

talking to her about her process
, I learned that she does a lot

of digital painting as well, so
she actually uses AI to create

basic shapes that inform and
layer into as a kind of

foundation for her work, and her
premise is that AI because AI

is non-human it can create
things that humans are incapable

of creating.

So she uses that to inform her
human art and combines those to

create something which is hybrid
.

And I found that really, really
interesting and also had

parallels to how I work
hybridising work and putting two

things together to create
something original.

And then I asked her do you
want to collaborate?

And at that point I'd never
collaborated with anyone, not

even before the NFT space and we
started working over six months

on a series of work called
Metamorph, which combined her AI

creations with my drone-lit
landscapes, and it was really

cool because our work is very
different, but together it felt

like the resulting art that came
out of it felt like more than

the sum of its parts.

It felt like an alchemy putting
two things together and

something unexpected coming out
of it.

And for me, creatively, it kind
of it almost allowed me to break

rules.

It allowed me to kind of go
beyond what I was doing.

You know, I think being able to
work with someone else and

doing collaboration, there's an
immediate sense of freedom that

I had, being able to kind of go
outside.

You know, I had invisible
boundaries that I'd set for

myself even though I was doing
what I was doing.

So, you know, thinking about
collaborations, I think it's

really healthy for an artist to
do for sure and obviously with

the right collaborator.

But I think with AI it's just
very powerful, you know, to

inspire work.

And I think with all new
mediums there's always this good

stuff and this bad stuff, and I
think the best stuff is where

the human element is kind of
intertwined with you know, in

that process, where you can
sense the human behind the AI,

or the human with the AI
creating something that AI

couldn't normally produce by
itself, that humans couldn't

normally produce by themselves.

So I think that's the power.

You know, it's a combination of
AI with humans behind it and

creating something which is
original and unique.

Speaker 1: I don't think I've
quite ever heard it said that

that definition will probably
stick with me for a while,

specifically around the through
line of you know, there's things

that AI can create and then
there's things that humans can

create, but there's things that
each can create that are kind of

mutually exclusive.

And what I think about is
really is our relationship to

technology and kind of how that
has evolved.

Because even going back to it's
such a fascinating topic,

because I mean, I go back to
like when, you know, steve Jobs

pulled the first iPhone out of
his pocket.

During that keynote there was a
I don't know if visceral is the

right word, but it was just a
very it was very emotionally

impactful, you know, at least to
me, when I saw that and that

could be his charisma, that
could have been the device that

could have been just me
discovering, you know, my love

for technology and, for the
first time, I guess, me feeling

comfy enough to really express
that, you know.

And so, as we go along, I think
it's really interesting that,

like you know, and there's going
out in a little bit of a limb

here, but it almost just makes
sense that it's going to become

something.

That's just so we're going to
talk to it like it's a human,

you know, and I think we already
are, and I think that you look

at, you know people that are at
the top of their field in AI

work.

It's kind of how people describe
it is that it's just a.

It's an assistant, it's a, it's
a, it's something that's just

there.

And if you talk to it like it's
a human or if you interact with

it I guess you could say,
because you can do a lot of

different ways Then it brings it
to life in a whole new, in a

whole new way, you know.

And so I find that I that's the
long, the long-winded ramble is

saying that I think that
there's a, there's a very unique

through line, there is a very
unique, I guess, result that can

be achieved through through
both.

And it brings me back to also,
just, you know, generative code

based art as well.

You know, is the art the, you
know, like what is goes back to

like defining what the art is,
you know, and our.

Is it the person who's creating
the parameters?

Is it the machine?

Is it a mix of both?

Is it the collector?

Is it?

There's just a yeah, going on a
going on a long-winded ramble

here, because you touched on
something.

I think it's really.

It's really important,
especially as we evolve, and it

makes a lot more sense.

The way you defined it as
creating something that neither

could create on their own, I
think it's just an awesome.

I think it's just a good way to
like.

It's just it feels.

It feels right, I guess, is the
way of what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it's
like when, when you see a

child's drawing, when the child,
a child draws like a child and

and you can tell a difference
when you see an adult trying to

draw like a child, it it doesn't
.

It doesn't look the same.

You know it's the two, the you
know the two creators are

completely different there, but
completely different mindset to

each other.

It's impossible for one to
replicate the other, to create

what the other creates, and I
think that's really interesting

to think about.

You know that.

We know what are, what are the
limits of of humanity.

You know we all have emotions.

Everything we create is is, you
know, influenced by our

feelings, but computers and AIs
don't have that, so they're able

to create something completely
free of that.

And then you know what is that?

What even is that?

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just, I
think that I think we're just

in for a fun ride.

It's.

It's what, what I gather from
that.

Yeah, that's super fascinating
man, and I yeah that that'll

help me look at it in an
entirely different light.

Yeah, man, so okay, something
that I definitely wanted to

definitely observe tonight.

I wanted to learn more about how
this came to be.

You know, we kind of touching
back on your early days and

having your early days on
Instagram, kind of having these,

this art, collect, likes, you
know for as, as you phrased it

like that, it was just something
that was brand new, it was

something that was uniquely you,
but it didn't really have like,

it didn't really have its full
legs yet.

And you know, and it's, it's an
inherently, you know it's, it's

a digital, you know just
digital.

You know it's a mix of physical
and digital creation, but it's,

but it lives on a digital
platform.

How do you look at, how do you
look at transporting, or what

are some of the new ways that
you've taken that digital work

and found unique ways to like,
display that physically, because

I found I've just had a recent,
as digital as we are, there's

this kind of been this craving
for physical as well, and I

don't know where that's come
from.

Maybe it's just me looking at
screens too many too much, but I

know you did.

There was, there was a.

There was a.

There were a couple of prints
that I noticed on your website

that looked incredibly different
than any other print that I had

seen before.

Speaker 2: So I started really
developing my photography

practice about 10 years ago with
the view of, like, I want to

make this a thing.

You know, I need to make
photography my thing, my, my

living or, you know, you know it
needs to, kind of needs to be

part of my life.

And so one of the first things
I did was to take all the

negatives that I had shot over
the course of 10 years before,

scan those and learn how to make
prints.

And so I actually got myself a
show at a gallery in Chicago and

I was like, okay, I need to
make an exhibition now of you

know, 10 printed works.

And I had no idea how to make
those prints.

So I was like, you know, I went
to a local lab and learned how

to scan my own negatives and
work on the raw files, print

them, frame them and produce
these.

You know, beautiful physical
pieces of art which could look

great in a gallery, and that has
always been.

You know, the printmaking has
always been very much a

foundation of what I do.

I feel that a photograph is
just best viewed as a print, you

know, because it's reflected
light rather than emitted light.

You can just have it.

You can see the texture of the
paper.

You can see the colors up close
.

You can get right up close to
it and see all the details.

It has a presence that is
completely different from a

screen.

There are great screens, but
they also emit light.

They kind of look, you know,
the color is kind of funky in,

you know, a different time to
day, they get hot, they're heavy

and they don't always work.

And also, you know, if you go
up close, you see pixels, but

you could show animations on
them.

And so when I was creating these
pieces as NFTs, I was also

really interested in how I
showed these NFTs in gallery

spaces.

And how do I show a digital
animation in a gallery space but

without resorting to a screen
on the wall?

And so I had this idea of
trying to combine, like a

traditional fine art framed
print with the digital animation

.

And, you know, basically using
a 3D projection mapping system,

where I was able to separate,
you know, the stuff that moved

in my animations with the stuff
that didn't move as the print,

and being able to combine those
two.

And you know, being able to
combine those two and using that

projection technique, I was
able to make a print that you

know looked great on the wall
but also moved in the same way

that my animation would, and
seeing it for the first time, I

was like, wow, this works.

This is my first time trying
this out.

I don't fucking works and I
thought, okay, this is going to

be.

This makes so much sense.

This is going to be the
physical component to the NFT,

and so when the NFT was
collected, it also came with the

framed print and the 3D
projector to the, and that went

to the winning collector, and
you know it's.

It feels good because even when
the animation is switched off,

it's still a fine art print on
the wall.

It looks exactly the same as
the background to the digital

animation, but without the
digital animation it's kind of

difficult to describe without.

Without.

Yeah, yeah, no, I think you did
it really well though.

Speaker 1: I guess that that, to
me, is the most fascinating

parts, because it gives the, it
gives the collector the option

to choose how they want to, how
they want to view it or how they

want to experience it.

And I think the only part and
you may have said said this, but

I was lost in, lost in the way
it looked when I saw I think

wasn't the art pleb that
collected it.

Is that correct?

No, it wasn't someone else.

Okay, I was definitely.

Speaker 2: I was definitely
remembering that there were a

few so okay, the first one was
Tom think flexible Got it.

He collected the first one, one
called an electric storm, and

then the second one was
collected by Studio 137.

And then, and then a third one
was collected by Pixel Pete, and

then he was like oh, I got it.

Speaker 1: That's awesome, man.

That's so cool.

I mean, so is the.

Is that projector?

Is that in?

It's like it's in the back of
the print?

No, it's on the front.

Speaker 2: Oh my, God so it
needs.

It can either be on a table or
a podium or it can be mounted on

a ceiling.

Okay, and it's really hard to
calibrate because it's basically

it's like down to the pixel.

I am calibrating the projector
so that the projection of the

light onto the fine art print is
exactly in the same place as

what the landscape is on is
printed.

Got it?

And because I think the the
coating that I have on the print

it shows the projected light
pretty well, that's incredible.

I apply a special coating to
all of my prints where you know,

if I did it in a gloss then it
wouldn't catch the projections

as much, so so basically, it's
this crazy unique digital analog

piece which doesn't exist
anywhere else and like this very

, very, very much a single
edition print that goes with the

digital.

Yeah, that's amazing.

It definitely like ticks the
boxes of the things that I'm

passionate about.

You know, the animated thing
together with the physical thing

that can actually, you know,
show and kind of have on the

wall when you have people around
you can talk about it.

And that actually led on to how
do I create this for people who

, you know, don't have the ETH
to buy one of one.

You know, how do I create
something that is like this in a

more affordable art piece?

And that's how 14th century
series came about, where it

actually started out as an
animated one of one piece.

And I teamed up with the
collector, a guy called Rob

Moore he goes under Chevy Pop on
Twitter.

I know Chevy Pop, yeah, great
guy.

And so we took a still frame
from the animation like 201

still frames, and that was a
collection of unique still

frames from this animation and
people could collect these still

frames and then they could also
use the token to redeem a

physical print from a print lab.

And this was all at cost,
because you buy the entity, you

claim the print.

You know it was all like.

For me, that was like, you know
, the entity is the master, if

you like.

So collectors were able to get
the print, have that on the wall

, and then, rather than using a
projector, I was able to use an

AR app called Art of Vive, which
is on your phone, and it's an

app that you just point the
camera at the art on the wall

and it automatically triggers
the animation so everyone can

experience the one of one kind
of in the comfort of their own

homes.

It's pretty cool because you
can kind of do that over dinner

and like talk about it.

This is an NFT.

You know, see this physical art
on the wall, point your phone

at it and it comes alive, and
it's all of a sudden.

It brings like a new meaning to
what an NFT is.

So I found that really exciting
to do.

Speaker 1: I'm really happy, you
, I'm really happy I brought

this up because I think that
that's hearing that story it's a

common.

I often use my family as a
barometer of you know, trying to

explain what I'm doing.

And it's like, if I can't
explain, if I can't ask, if I

can't answer their questions,
then it really like that's on me

, you know, and that's on us as
a community.

And like finding unique ways to
like make it more attractive to

where it's like wow, you can't
do that without the token.

What value does the token
provide to the artwork?

Or like, what role does it play
?

And I guess, when it comes to
collecting a piece, and so I

find that like those ways are
incredibly exciting, I think for

me just personally exciting,
because it's like, wow, yeah, we

have a few things where, like,
you clearly can't do this

without the token, or the token
is a very meaningful, it's a

very meaningful object and yeah,
it's just a very meaningful

object.

And something that you
mentioned was like the NFT kind

of being like as like the master
file, you know, of the artwork,

I guess kind of moving more to
a basic, a more kind of like

commercial print.

Like when you have like a
one-of-one token.

How do you view prints, like
when it comes to a one-of-one?

Do you like say you wanted to
sell prints of that one-of-one?

Is that something that I guess?

How do you view that?

How do you view the token and
the prints in a situation like

that?

Because I can see, like for me
there's like two different.

You know, there's two different
emotions that I feel.

One is like I'd rather the
one-of-one just be the

one-of-one and there not be any
other prints, but I could also

see how having a bunch of prints
could drive value back to the

one-of-one.

So I'd love to kind of know how
you personally think about that

and kind of the dialogue that
you have maybe with collectors

around that subject, if you do
at all.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely
have a point of view on that,

and I think it all comes down to
whether an artwork is

crypto-native or not.

If it is a piece of work that
kind of existed before an NFT,

then I think it's, you know, as
long as you communicate with the

collector and make that be
completely transparent.

You know there are additions of
this image already floating

around.

Are you okay with that?

And you know a lot of my
collectors are completely fine

with that and actually, you know
, celebrate its prominence as a

print that a lot of people can
have.

You know it's like merch, if
you like, and so I think in that

way, the key is communication
with the collector.

You know, if they're happy with
it, then it's cool.

Other times, like 14th Century
Series, which is completely

crypto-native, there was a way
of being able to redeem a print

just via having the token in
your wallet, and I think that

was really important, that it
was going to be at cost, that no

one was going to be paying
fine-opered prices for this,

because you have the master, you
have the thing, and so that was

pretty.

You know quite an important
part of that project and you

could literally just have it for
the price of production and

shipping.

If I were to create a
one-of-one now of a still image,

I wouldn't think of making and
selling prints.

I would definitely make a print
a single-edition print for the

collector, and if there was
demand for a print, then I'd

talk to the collector and just
say what do you think?

And then it becomes something
which is definitely a

collaboration between artist and
collector, and I think that's.

You know, it's a really cool
thing to do these days.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like
that man and I like the way that

there's not really a single
answer, you know, because I

think that that's incredibly
important and I remember, you

know, because I bought a print
by one of my favorite

illustrators, jay Ruffhouse or
he goes by Zade Zade Kirtzky on

Twitter and you know there was a
one-of-one that he sold to Deez

and Sobi back in 2021.

And then he did something very
similar to what you did.

He was like, hey, I want to
make like a hell version of this

print, you know, because it was
like a blue-green, kind of like

sci-fi, purple as well.

And he was like, hey, I want to
make like a red and black, you

know, a central version of this
as like a limited run of 16.

And it was kind of one of those
things where you know he's like

we'll never make these again,
but this is something I feel

compelled to do.

And there was a level of
collaboration between, you know,

between Deez and Sobi as well
as Zade, and it was really as a

collector, because with me, it's
like if someone owned a

one-of-one and then I was able
to buy a print without their

knowledge of that, you know, or
without that communication being

had, I would feel kind of weird
owning that, you know, just as

a newer collector to that, so I
like that.

I guess the question I had to
drill into this a little bit

more is you know what defines it
as crypto-native, like

something that you took and you
minted onto the blockchain, you

know?

Or is there like a redeemable
component?

Like what does it mean by the
work?

Being crypto-native, I guess,
is the question.

Speaker 2: If I'm creating
something that is specifically

going to be an NFT, then that's
crypto-native.

If it doesn't exist, you know,
if it didn't exist before you

know this, you know whatever
we're doing right now, then it's

if I'm making it for the space,
if I'm making it, as you know,

thinking about what it is as a
token, as an NFT, even as a

physical later on, then it's
like specifically for that.

A lot of artists here are, you
know, they have been, you know

we've been making work for
decades and there are incredible

pieces of work which we feel
have to be archived on the

blockchain as a kind of
immutable archive of our work.

And that's definitely how I see
the NFT in a lot of you know

work that has existed before
this time as a kind of digital

artist proof.

And that's kind of how I kind
of viewed it as a way of kind of

having it make sense to me in
existence with like a run of

limited edition prints.

You know you have this image,
it exists in these editions, but

there is also a digital artist
proof.

Normally you just have an
artist proof, but now there's a

digital artist proof, which is
the NFT, and then it just

becomes another line item in
your inventory and as long as

the collector is okay with what
they have and what they've

collected, then it's all good.

Speaker 1: Got it.

That makes a lot of sense.

That makes a lot of sense
because I've often wondered you

know how, because I, you know,
especially with you you look at

artists that are just digitally
native, that haven't had a

career before this.

I think maybe their first stab
at being a career artist like

everything basically is, at
least right now, or most of it

is crypto native, you know,
especially if they're in this

space, and so I've often
wondered I'm glad that you

talked about that because I've
often wondered how people, how

artists that have had a career
before this, how they think of

how you really integrate it to
like make sense.

You know, or like how it makes
sense to both you as well as the

people that your previous
collectors as well as brand new

collectors you know of your work
, and so I'm happy that you went

there, because I feel the same
way is that it's a.

It's a.

The provenance is probably, at
least in my eyes, the most

important, one of the most
important value adds that this

really brings to art.

I was chatting with with
cardboard a while back, like way

earlier this year, and talking
about you know in the old, you

know in the like, how forgery,
you know, is like one of the

most.

Pot was like one of the most
popular crafts, like back, you

know, back, you know, centuries
ago, and it was so easy to forge

and people had whether it was
within writing, whether it was

the actual painting itself.

And you look at the way
provenance is tracked today and

it's like it's like in a black
box, it's kind of like at an

auction house.

It's like kind of like I told
you, you know, just trust me,

and that just doesn't seem to me
, like that just doesn't seem.

I guess I just don't agree with
it.

You know, it just doesn't like
if I'm spending that much X

amount of money for an artwork,
having something that no human

could alter is very important to
me, you know, and having that,

having it live publicly, is also
very important to me as well.

So I like the way you think
about that and I think that

makes to me it helps.

It's a good.

I think it's a good North Star
and a good way to think about

what that means, especially if
you're an artist that is kind of

coming into the space or, you
know, you're still trying to

figure it out, because there's a
lot of people I'm sure that are

.

So, as we're gonna wrap up here,
wanna, you know, kind of ask a

question that I thought of last
night as I was taking my dog on

a walk.

You know, you've been creating
for a while.

You've embraced this technology
full, like, full on.

You know, it's really cool to
watch, it's really cool to see

how someone how someone like you
, you know navigates the space

and how you think about it, and
it's been a treat getting to

like learn about your journey
and your history.

I guess the question I had is
you know what was easier?

You know, if you were to be an
artist I'm gonna frame this in a

, I'm gonna Add a little bit of
context.

You know, I look at, say, an
art, say you were an artist just

starting today, versus when you
were starting back when you

started.

I guess what's easier Today
than it was back then?

And also, what was easier maybe
back then Then it is today,

like, what it like if you, if
you were to like create?

Now it's you're like man, like
I don't know if I could do it

today, or I don't know if, like,
I Would enjoy it as much, or I

don't know.

The process just seems a lot
harder.

How, like what?

What was easier than versus.

What is easier now is the the
simple version of that question.

I Think what's easier?

Speaker 2: now Is that there is
a really strong creative

community online that didn't
really exist at this scale a few

years ago, and Not just Not
just a creative community within

a meet and within a medium, but
a multidisciplinary one, hmm.

So, you know, twitter is a
place where I am seeing.

You know the people I follow.

You know their artists there's
sculptors, their illustrators,

that their painters, that their
3d artists, that their composers

, ai artists, and we're all
together in this mixing pop and

I think that's being able to
enter the community and everyone

is super nice and inclusive and
it's really easy to see and be

inspired by all of these
different forms of art around

you.

Whereas, you know, maybe a few
years ago, 2020 or 2021, you

know when it was just you know,
things were just kind of

happening.

It was like I was still very
much solitary as a, as a creator

, I was just getting to grips
with like, oh, there are so many

artists here.

You know we're all kind of like
starting to kind of come

together and you know, now, now
it's a lot more mature and it's

easier to kind of Be inspired by
all of these different types of

different forms of art and also
, you know, everyone who's

hanging out now, or people who
have been hanging out for the

past, you know, a few years, who
will kind of In it for the long

run.

Yeah, but I think you know
everyone is very welcoming to

people who who want to enter the
space.

So I think that's, that's
definitely a big advantage of

Entering the space now.

I think, obviously, like you
know, it was easier to, I Guess,

get a footing in in the space,
you know, a few years ago

because it was smaller.

You know, there was this kind
of excitement, this crazy

excitement that everyone had.

That everything, you know,
everything was still very much

emerging and emerging at a
really fast pace, and so I think

at that point it was very it
was easier to Kind of get your

art out there.

I guess I think you know I'm
speaking from a position of, you

know, a unique position where
you know, my first NFT really

struck a chord and did really
well.

So you know, I think my, my
point of view is is unique, but

I think it was.

It was definitely there was an
energy which really was present

at that point, which is maybe
less so now.

Speaker 1: Yeah, they're,
they're.

That's a great way to it's a
great way to put it.

Yeah, there's definitely a lot
of.

I think as things mature, it's
naturally the the barrier maybe

becomes a little harder.

But I think the flip side of
that is, as a mature community,

I also think that you know, at
least the way I view it is that

there's a beauty, there's a,
there's a beauty and there's

also a.

There's all, there's also,
there's a.

There's an upside, there's a
downside to having this

community be attached to a
financial market.

You know and.

The plus side of that and I
think you know, as a as a

creative, it's got to just be
mind-numbing as well.

I think it's just mind-numbing
for everybody Because it's hard

to it's hard to conceptualize
what happens.

But I think, now that I've, I
can say I've lived through my

first, you know, full, full
cycle here, is that there's that

growing excitement that I felt
when I came in here in 2021.

It feels like we're kind of
almost you know I'm not trying

to speak with too much Hope I'm
here, but you know it kind of

feels that we're at that spot
where there's fresh ideas.

You know the people that are
here are the people that want to

be here for a while.

There's a lot of great art
being shown in the timeline.

There's a lot of, there's a lot
of fun things happening,

there's a lot of good of ideas,
good ideas being shared and it

feels Like there's a more well,
I guess, a lot more welcome now.

Even two months ago, I would
have probably given you a

different answer.

You know everyone was at each
other's throats.

You know there's still a lot of
scammers, a lot of grifters, a

lot of you know a lot of people
Just not being welcome.

It just wasn't a fun time, you
know, to be around.

But I think through Some of
those cycles the people that

have stuck around get a little
bit more.

I guess you get a little bit
thicker skin.

But also we realize that
there's also this, this natural

kind of an evident inevitability
of being tied to a financial

market that when some of the bad
actors are gone, or when people

have you know are left, then
people feel more comfortable

Welcoming more people in if that
makes sense.

And I think that that's kind of
at the point where we're at now,

where it's like we, if you try
to enter in From, you know, I'd

say, may to October, it's just a
really you probably got a

really bad taste of what what
this community was, but I I

would generally agree with you
now that it's.

It's at that point where it is
incredibly welcoming, because I

remember the way I felt when I
didn't really know a damn thing

when I came in here and it was
like people I asked questions

and people answered it.

It's like whoa, like that's not
.

I'm not used to that Like this
is, this is really cool, what is

this place?

And then the blow run happened
and I just tried to hang on, you

know.

Speaker 2: You just never know.

Is it gonna be another bull
market?

I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know, man.

Speaker 1: You know, I try to
keep these conversations as

evergreen as possible and not as
topical, but it's hard to, it's

hard to, it's hard to deny,
it's hard to like deny the

desire for that, to potentially,
maybe Possibly think that we're

almost there, um so, or Ruben,
I want to, you know, rat, as

we're, you know, kind of at the
hour and a half mark here.

But I just want to say, you
know, on recording, I just want

to thank you for your time, your
energy, your thoughtfulness,

the depth of your responses like
this is.

I was just, I was doing a
meditation earlier this morning

and I was thinking like the
meditation was a reflection on,

like what makes me kind of feel
at home on the inside, and like

these types of conversations is
really what came to mind for the

10 minutes out of that 20
minute reflection.

So I just want to say thank you
for, yeah, sharing this with me

and sharing your time.

It's been a treat.

Speaker 2: Yes, it's a pleasure
to Talk about these things with

you.

You know it's not every day you
can get on on on a call and

just talk about these other
things.

Just talk about these ideas.

You know you often just like
think about them, write them

down, tweet them.

It's nice to be able to chat
face to face with someone.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really
is.

I need to get better at the
tweeting, the things I'm usually

better at talking about him.

Speaker 2: This is because I
really don't do space.

I can't do spaces, I'm not, I
don't have that.

Speaker 1: I'll, I'll be, you
know, I'll tell you it's not my

comfort zone.

This is, this is my you know,
kind of like.

Earlier I was like I'm a more
of a one-to-one type of person

and like, when there's an
audience, it naturally makes me

more nervous.

Yeah, however, I will say that
it is nice to be able to do both

, because I we do, you know, at
Schiller we do, I host the Y art

space on Mondays, which has
been really incredible and it's

been a great kind of growing a a
.

I'm not used to structure and
you, in spaces, you just have to

have so much structure, you
know, for it to be meaningful,

for it to make a difference and
for people to feel cozy but also

feel like the audience is
getting value, you know.

But I will say and it's
translated over to this podcast,

it's helped me structure this a
little bit, a little bit more,

but not too much.

And it's but, yeah, it's your
questions question.

This is my, this is my
preference Over over that.

I will, I do it and it's great
and I love it and it's fun.

It's got its own set of like,
positives and and fierce.

But make a mistake, I agree.

Speaker 2: It's not my comfort
zone either, which is why I

agree to do it.

Yeah, you know, it's something,
it's a skill that you just need

to.

They just need to house, so
totally totally.

Speaker 1: Man.

Well, as we wrap this up where
we're you know.

Where do you want people to go?

Is there any?

I guess you know number one
when do you want people to go to

like, if they were to search
you for the first time, would

you want people to go to your
website, your Twitter and also

just, is there anything else
that anything that you're

currently working on, without
telling too much, that you'd

like to share?

Speaker 2: People can check out
my Twitter or my Instagram,

which is Ruben.

I'm Currently working on things
which are kind of not

photography but is still visual.

It's very much kind of in the
works but Can't say much about

it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I figured I
didn't want to.

I didn't want to probe you too
much there.

Well, cool, man, just hang out
for a little bit afterwards and

we'll we'll let this finish
uploading.

But again, ruben, just thank
you again for your time and Look

forward to having this
published.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you for listening to the
Schiller curated podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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you're looking for it art is
everywhere and it's up to us to

appreciate and explore the
emotions it brings to our lives.

Until next time, this is Boona
signing off.