CURAT3D: tjo- Unraveling the Intersection of Art, Mental Health, and Society
E55

CURAT3D: tjo- Unraveling the Intersection of Art, Mental Health, and Society

Summary

Send us a text Join us, as we unravel many different universal mysteries our special guest, tjo. His art speaks volumes about the power of storytelling, with his unique blue rooms and the profound concept of "For the, fractured". We also explore how art amalgamates with psyche, dissecting the roles of museums and auction houses in the fine art world. We dig deeper into the complex interplay of art, mental health, and societal perceptions of 'fractured' individuals. Tjo shares his experience...

Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the

Schiller Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Tijo, a visual artist

whose art creates a dialogue,
raises awareness and sparks

conversation around mental
health, self-expression and the

human experience.

In this episode, we explore the
concept of For the, fractured

to the purpose and impact of his
blue rooms, the role of museums

and auction houses and the fine
art world, and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Tijo.

Oh, we're both recording Tijo.

Good morning, sir GM.

How are you, tijo?

How are you?

I'm good.

How are you?

Not too bad?

I'm here in Texas and we're
actually having arguably nice

weather for November.

I think it's like 78 or 80
degrees Fahrenheit, which means

it's like 18 to 20 degrees
Celsius, I think, if I'm doing

the conversion right, it's
actually been really nice out

here.

Yeah, I'm not sure where you're
located, but how's it over

there?

Speaker 2: We're officially
entering winter territories.

There's snow everywhere now and
it's not disappearing overnight

.

I'm actually really happy.

I think winter is a beautiful
season.

I love to.

It's also a quick hack to
waking up.

If you just have a hard time
waking up, you can just go

outside and the cold is going to
do its work.

But yeah, no, I'm quite happy
with the weather these days.

At least it's not just like
weird watery ice.

Speaker 1: I can really relate
to the cold or enjoying the cold

.

I think as a Texan I'm kind of
like a.

I stick out like a sore thumb
here because I'm one of the few

who enjoys it when it gets
really cold outside.

But it's nice to have that
fully transition where sometimes

the weather doesn't know what
it's supposed to do and it's

nose and then it melts and then
it's gross and it has all these

different weird changes.

I'm happy that there's a little
consistency.

It's funny we're talking about
the cold right after that.

I know you're no stranger to
having cold showers and heavy

things wake you up like that.

Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's
just great the stimuli for all

the nerves in the body.

Honestly, I don't want to go on
the preaching wave about the

cold.

I think the best person to talk
about it is probably Loha,

because most of the things I
know about cold showers and

stuff comes from him.

But yeah, I do think that there
is great benefits that come

from the cold, but it's still
really fun when it's sunny

outside in summer.

But I'm never really sad when I
feel the same.

Speaker 1: It's nice to meet
someone who kind of has the.

I guess the excitement just
runs through.

It doesn't really matter.

The weather can have an effect,
but it's very nice to have

someone who doesn't look at it
in a melancholy way.

I think it's quite beautiful.

For sure I'm always one of
those people that you can put

more clothes on and be more
comfy.

Versus the summer, it's like
you can only take so much off,

especially in public.

I always look at that like,
even if it is really really cold

, it's like, well, okay, then I
get to wear more sweatpants, I

get to wear more hoodies, I get
to wear comfort socks.

There's really, to me, no
downside to it.

Happy to hear that.

And yeah, for sure, shout out.

I believe it was David.

I've seen his stuff before but
I haven't doven into it.

But yeah, man, well, just want
to say, dude, thanks for coming

on.

It's a pleasure to have you.

I've been a long time admirer of
your work.

I'm not really sure where I
found it.

I'm pretty sure Samantha Kavett
, she shared some of your work

at some point and I was like wow
.

And then I think you picked up
a piece from Eva Eller back in

the day.

There's a why I say back in the
day, like a year ago or

something like that, and I've
just been a really big fan and

admirer of your work, your
journey, how you tell stories,

if you're as a person, it's been
a.

It's really great to finally be
able to talk to you now in a

little bit more formal
environment.

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.

I mean we've like talked a
little bit on Discord, talked in

the Twitter and Twitter a bit,
but yeah, it's good to finally

get to have a proper
conversation to say so.

I feel like up till now we've
just had like polite numb talk,

just saying whatever.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure if
you remember, but we briefly

met in New York, but I think it
was like towards the end of your

trip and you were just like
like I think we were both just

so exhausted that it was like,
oh great, this is Ambuna.

You're like, yeah, I'm DJ.

I'm like, oh cool.

Speaker 2: It was like oh, I
think I remember it was.

I did.

I have no more beer.

Yeah, was it?

I think it was.

Uh, I just shaved my beard,
yeah, that night I was so

drained it was uh, yeah, no,
it's, it's.

I was absolutely drained.

I had no idea we were actually
going to a gallery.

Teri had just told me like, oh,
there's this part I want to go.

So I was like following him,
brain dead.

Speaker 1: And then I arrive and
it's like there's people and I

kind of have to be like just
mentally present and I was

definitely underprepared as
someone who likes to talk like a

lot and have I'm not really as
good, as you know like I can, of

course, do small talk, but I of
course prefer, like you know,

if we have like a 20 to 30
minute, you know, at least a

minimum conversation.

That's just.

I've always been like that and
so, uh, kind of, you know, when

I, when I go to New York, it's
very much like that where you're

just trying to meet or I'm just
at least me, I'm trying to meet

as many people that I want to
meet, um, as possible and just

training my brain to like not be
able to like just go completely

in depth on a conversation and
do that multiple times

throughout the week.

I mean it was uh, it's really
taxing man.

So I mean, like, whether it's
for the same reason or a

different reason, like I think
at that point it was probably

the middle, towards the end of
the I guess you could say the

conference or you know what the
events that were taking place.

You know something I typically
ask on one of our spaces that I

think is one of my favorite
questions, because it's uh, you

know, it's kind of nebulous, but
also, you know, people can

answer it in a vast you know in
a great many of ways, but would

love to kind of know, like, like
, who is TGO?

You know, like, who is TGO, or
what does TGO represent?

Um, I would love to maybe start
there.

Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great
question.

Who is TGO?

Um well, uh, I well, the first
thing that I can definitely say

is that um TGO is an artist's
name.

Uh, it's not the name on my
passport.

Yeah and um, uh, for I mean I
created uh, TGO, um, because I

knew exactly what I was going to
be saying.

I had a clear pad in mind as far
as, like, the purpose of my art

and what I wanted to say with
it.

And so I created TGO knowing
that I would be, uh, doing stuff

for the fractured.

I mean that was like the
original, like tagline I would

like for the fractured.

I felt like, uh, I could tap in
things that I've lived through

and I was able to put it into
visuals in a way where it could

help some.

It could help people that
didn't necessarily add the

resources or the people around
them to push them towards help,

to see that they could get out,
and stuff like that.

So that's I created TGO,
thinking I would just be sharing

these things online and that I
would just be able to help some

people, like whoever basically,
and and as they the the most

enriching and enriching stuff
that I've gone through in in uh

with, uh with the web, uh with
TGO, has been to, uh is the, the

connections and, uh, the deep
discussions I've had with like

very, very multiple people that
I had no idea who they were.

They just reached out to talk
about it and uh that always

feels very special.

Speaker 1: I can imagine, man, I
mean, and and thanks for

sharing that and I it's really
there's a, there's a few,

there's a few places to to go
off of there.

You know, I guess the the the
natural thing for me is, like

I've always noticed that you've
had, uh, you know the, for the

fractured is really where, where
I related to a lot Like what,

especially when I first I'm a
big fan of bios and when I, when

I saw that in your bio
initially, uh, that initially

piqued my curiosity, you know,
um, because you know I've

recovered from uh heroin
addiction and I've been sober

for 10 years, and so I was like,
well, like that.

I don't know what he means by
fractured, but like I felt that,

you know, and so, um, it really
like drew me to that, and so

I'd love to kind of maybe like
dive into that a little bit.

You know, like, was there um,
when it comes to like creating,

when was like your first
experience with creating art?

You know like, where was it?

Was it like really young, uh,
was this always the goal, uh, or

was did this kind of like
happen a little bit later?

I guess that's where really
what I'm curious here.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, uh,
that's a great question.

Uh, um, we can start with, uh,
just leading up to the fractured

Um, I had no idea for the
longest that I would be wanting

to make art.

Um, I wasn't raised in the
context of like art being evil,

even remotely something other
than, um, like at the limits,

like, uh, an activity.

Um, it was like there was no
role models or like art was just

like this thing that would
never be a career in any sense,

um, and that there was no proof
of it even working around me.

Um, and so I I I never imagined
I wouldn't be an artist.

I never even imagined I would
be one.

They called it my work art.

Um, I always added a nick for
just creating stuff, but it was.

I was very, uh, I was
self-aware in the sense where I

never really wanted to call it
anything other than just

creating stuff, and I would just
always just jump from when.

Wherever I went into making
stuff, it was always just a

matter of like, just putting
stuff into it, and then you know

, just leave it be and it's not
serious, and I just got it fun.

So I, I wouldn't, I didn't call
it myself an artist, uh, up

until I guess like 20, 29, 20,
20, 19, 2020.

Um, just because I was starting
to feel more comfortable with

the terms and because I moved
out to uh, montreal and I was

more and more like uh, I had
more and more knowledge about

the art world and the art
history and it was becoming

apparent to me that it could be
something that was net positive

for society.

But, um, it took me a long time
to be able to even figure that

out.

Um, and it took me also a long
time to even figure out that I

had problems.

So, um, uh, so, yeah, I just uh
, I never, I like I wasn't, I

didn't want to be a non-sets, 6
years old, like and at 15 years

old I was like I was doing drugs
and shopping thing.

I never really uh, I I wasn't
really uh thinking like, oh, I

want to be this uh, until very
much later and after actually my

diagnosis and being medicated,
um, and I always liked the

terminology of fractured um,
because, uh, well, for me, um,

it holds two parts, like I do
nothing, that whatever we call

mental illnesses and stuff,
mental health is a disability.

I've never, I don't believe
that.

I never believed it.

Well, I mean, I actually know I
did at one time when I was very

younger, believe it because
that's what, um, my father would

tell me.

But, um, as somebody that's now
like, that's lived through it,

that's overcome it, I understand
that it is a strength, um, but

it leaves behind some sort of
like, um, um, anormalities that

don't fit in like with what
you're supposed to be in, uh, in

capitalism, uh, in capitalist
realism, like it's just

something where it feels like
you're a bit of a broken toy in

the box of toy, the of where you
live.

You know, like everyone's doing
their little thing and you're,

you're just like the kind of,
you know, like you're missing a

few parts, um, in this whole
theater.

That is uh, uh, capitalistic
realism, um, and so, yeah, I, I

felt like I could be a voice for
that and that, um, the people

that I needed to touch with
would would relate to that

tagline.

But that in itself it was also
pretty just enigmatic and it

wasn't forcing anything.

I, I, I hate like the really
really, really, really crowded

like same bios.

So I wanted to find a way to
say like, just like, if you're

like, if you read this and it
sounds some, it rings a bell,

then this is for you.

If it doesn't, maybe it is for
you and it's okay, maybe you

just it makes no sense for you
and you know, don't care.

But yeah, that's how I came
with the.

Speaker 1: I really liked that
and I, I very, very, very much

relate to simple bios.

Uh, crowded bios, like stress
me out.

Uh, it's like what am I reading
?

Like who are you?

Uh, and you know, and I and I
speak from someone who's had uh

a crowded bio before you know,
uh, and I think the more I've

evolved as a human, the shorter
the that's got.

Have you found that with
yourself as well?

Speaker 2: Um, no, honestly, um,
I I always hated it, but that's

because I also.

I also really hate, uh,
pretentious people and because

of that, I always saw the big
bios as trying to prove a point

to the people on the first
impression basis, which I didn't

really like.

Like you know, like I like
naming all the awards and stuff,

like I feel like the people
that truly need to know this, if

they need to know it, they'll
find a way to know that stuff,

but like just putting it as like
the first impression, like you

would never open a discussion
with someone by saying like two

times the nominee for this, you
know, like that's the words

first impression ever.

If you like, have a coffee with
somebody.

So I don't know why I would be
trying to be pushing that as my

first impression.

Speaker 1: That makes a lot of
sense and I, I, yeah, I'm really

glad you touched on that Cause
I think it.

You know, whether I was fully
conscious or fully aware of that

or not, I think there was a
level of that in me as well, or

there's a bit of that.

So I appreciate that and I, you
know something that you are,

something you're really touching
on, obviously someone who's had

, um, had their struggles as
well.

Uh, when it comes to like that
broken toy, you know, that was

something that really stuck out
to me in this cap, you know,

which collect capitalist realism
, um, and but one thing that,

like I've really noticed and
this is kind of a take on mental

health in general um, you know,
I feel like it's a lot more

accepted today to like have a
therapist, like it doesn't feel

so weird to have a therapist say
that it did like, say like five

or 10 years ago, you know where
it was like kind of like that

thing, where it was like, oh,
you have a therapist like fuck

is wrong with you.

Speaker 2: You know, like and
I'll go even further to say that

it's still needs a lot of long
way to go.

Like, yes, like on our
microcosm space and in like

metropolis and places like that
with higher education.

Like it is like getting
extremely prioritized as a

self-care routine almost, but
like when you move away from the

centers and you're going to
small cities, it's still seen as

like you're like a crazy person
, like there's still so long to

go, especially in reclusive
areas where, like it's still

seen as like crazy house
appointments and like as a

problem and as something that
you know doesn't necessarily

exist.

So, yeah, I mean it's like it
is getting like a lot more like

recognition for what it truly is
, but only in certain spheres.

Like it's there's like around
here, like I can tell you that

it's still not really something
that's talked about.

Speaker 1: Like, yeah, it's okay
, and yeah, I think you're

absolutely right and I had an
experience like that when I went

.

We went to Egypt in like 2019
and I got to really see how far

but, like you know, as much
problems as we have like it

really showed.

It showed kind of how spoiled
certain circles you know were

especially in, especially over
here, and I live, you know, I

live in a pretty progressive
city is Austin, and so it's, you

know, stepping outside of that
really opened my eyes to kind of

see how you know, like, like,
even even others, just like

racism and sexism, like those
were like rampant and like

public and they was still like
just a regular practice.

You know what I mean and it was
just like wow, like this is the

rest of the world still, like
you know, and some of the and

some of the other places in the
world has a long way to go.

But I would, I would agree with
you, though it's like I feel

like it's becoming more accepted
, but it it'll take time.

But I don't know.

I feel like, if you look back
at like the evolution of humans,

you know we've increasingly,
you know, as a whole society, it

takes society a long time to
change.

You know, individuals change
quicker, obviously, than the

greater whole.

But you know there is some
momentum I guess is the better

word like in that direction, at
least from what I've seen.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I agree.

I guess, like the the biggest
hurdle that's going to be coming

in the coming, in my opinion,
in the coming years, is that

everything is so polarizing that
it's hard to have something to

take root everywhere, like
respect of a certain thing or

whatnot, because, like people
are, like because of the

internet, people are so pointed
towards like a bad guy and a

good guy.

Actually, it's not only the
internet, I mean all of cultures

centered around a bad guy and a
bad guy.

But yeah, that's sort of like
duality in the idea of like

there's need, there needs to be
something that's right and

something that's wrong.

It's getting even stronger.

I feel like it's just getting
stronger and stronger with the

internet and I it's like I
really hope that we can still

have like lots of progress,
because on one side, it feels

like we're miles ahead from the
other side and on the other side

, like if they don't see it as
miles ahead, they see it as

miles backward.

You, know, and so, yeah, there's
all of that dimension of things

that that's been on my mind
lately.

I don't even know if it makes
sense in our current discussion.

Well, I mean, that's the whole
point of these discussions.

Speaker 1: I think it's, you
know, I really like going down

rabbit holes and I know you have
, like, you think you're a very

deep thinker and you think about
things a lot, and so I think

it's very, I think it's a great
topic because you talk about and

you represent and you create
art.

You know that has a lot to do,
you know, with, you know with

mental health and the topics
surrounding it and some of the

dialogues, emotions, you know.

So something that, like I guess
I would ask you as a you know,

kind of like on the same beat
here, is as an individual, you

know, like, how do you do?

You see, I guess, what's your
individual?

Have you thought about
solutions to it?

I guess is the better question,
you know, on a personal level,

when it comes like, what can
each person do?

And is that the same?

Is there a one size fits all?

You know, or do things have to
get worse before they get better

?

You know.

Speaker 2: I mean it's
definitely not a one size fits

all.

I mean I just feel like it's,
it's just something we need to

talk about and like normalize in
the sense of like having

discussion about it, Like as
long as we break that cycle of

like just silencing it.

I think it's like everything,
it can only go like if there's

enough people involved, of
different horizons.

It can only go forward because
it is just fundamentally a

reality of the human condition,
and so I just think it's a

matter of time and and I shared
effort, Yeah- I would, I would

definitely agree, and I'm a I'm
a huge fan of providing context.

Speaker 1: I think we, we very
much share that, share that

belief that you talked about
before, and I think that we've,

as humans, have lost our ability
to to as a whole, you know, as

a great greater society, like
reason and have nuance and like

have everything.

You know what, if something can
be both, it's not an either or,

you know.

So I'm very much a fan of that
and I very much am aligned with

that.

So, but yeah, no, this has been
a great like I I'm really glad

we kind of started here, you
know, and so something that I

think I want to transition to
and something that you've talked

about in a lot of your you know
, in some of your work, like

especially in the discord and
some of your work on the

timeline, is, you know, the, you
know most of your work has to

deal with archetypes, you know,
and I think I think, except for

the one, actually, that I own,
which is the nifty gateway one

is the only one.

That's not.

So I would love to know, do you
?

Is this how you see the world
is through archetypes?

Speaker 2: Um, it's how I I
approach in the worlds, um,

because most of my art is not
about the outside world.

I'm still very introspective in
everything I do because, um

most things going on in the
world, I feel like I haven't

figured enough of myself to then
start having solid opinions,

even if I think I do have some
sort of logic in my brain.

I'm still just very focused on
figuring out that tremor inside,

just so that I can like then
have an outside.

Look, that's proper.

But yeah, I approach everything
as archetypes, um, because I

feel like it's it kind of breaks
this idea of one sided um, of

like, though, of like one sided
conflicts and one sided opinions

and one sided things.

I like to approach, um, the
human condition as something

that has like many cogs in the
machine and that all these cogs,

even if, like they might seem
like suspicious, they all serve

a like purpose, in that I do
think humans fundamentally want

to do right, or at least the
majority of humans fundamentally

want to do what's right and
what's good.

And I feel like archetypes.

They're very interesting
because they allow me to think

about these components and
approach um this like problem

solving, of being a good person
while still having like uh

conflict, because it's all
within the same person and it's

like you could have like your
familiarity being in a be in a

fight with your masculinity, but
they're both trying just to be,

to help you be the best, better
version of yourself.

And so I really like to uh, to
approach my art like that, but I

never really forced it upon
people because most people think

I'm I'm like depicting people
or like uh, just a specific

person, um, but in general I'm
just like always reflecting back

to like archetypes and the
symbolism and like making it

like a very simple thing that we
can build.

Speaker 1: I really liked that
and I think, yeah, I'm, I'm so,

I'm so happy.

I asked that because that
explanation makes a lot of sense

and I think it's, yeah, it kind
of it's on the same through

line of of, you know, having
this binary approach to the

world, or kind of shaking that,
shaking that belief up, or

shaking up that, uh, that way of
thinking.

You know, um, cause I think
there's there's a lot of,

there's a lot of duality, or
like humans are not simple

creatures, like we are simple in
a sense, but we're also not.

Uh, there's a lot going on and
I really, uh, just I liked, I

liked to highlight the approach
of it's.

It's in a world where a lot of
people try to um, commentate on

the outside world, uh, I feel
are very underqualified to do so

, uh, and I think it's a bit, uh
, I think it's a bit pretentious

in that sense, uh, to really
think that we actually know what

the hell's going to happen or
we know what's actually going on

.

Um, and I I enjoy I think
that's really what I enjoy about

what you do is it's, it's all
focused inside.

Um, cause I've I don't know
about you personally, but I feel

like I have a better
understanding of the world.

Uh, when I focus on myself more
, you know, or like.

When I focus on when what's
wrong.

Speaker 2: Yeah Well, um, yeah
Well.

I guess when you can understand
like all this energy within you

and when you fill in harmony
with it, then a lot of things

make more sense.

You know, when everything isn't
like, is moving too fast,

everything is full of uh hatred,
or when you yourself fall under

like negative negativity and
stuff like that, like it's hard

for you to have like a comp, I
become closure to actually look

at things for just just
basically look at things.

It's not even like how you look
at things, just looking at them

.

Like uh, sometimes you can just
think you're looking at things

but you're just like already
internalizing an infant thing

and projecting onto the world,
um, and so, yeah, I mean then,

like all of that work, like uh,
I really do with myself, so like

, um, so basically, I don't
really like I don't have a

statement about like saying,
like having an opinion.

I think it's good to have an
opinion to a certain sense, Like

, um, I don't think having no
opinion is good either.

But yeah, I do like to focus on
, uh, what I feel like I can

talk about first and, um, maybe
in the future, uh, I feel more

comfortable about talking about
like sociopolitical stuff, um,

that are not centered around
mental illness.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, and that
makes sense, um, and appreciate

that clarification, and I think
something that, um, something

that you touched on there is
something that I find really

fascinating is like the, the
speed, um, and the pace at which

you know I guess you could say,
the world's operating in right

now, um, you know, and
especially in the crypto space,

if we want to, like make it
super topical, uh, about, you

know, the space that we both
kind of play in and how we, how

we met, um, you know.

So I would like to kind of maybe
touch on that, you know, cause

I know, at least for me, and
I'll just share some context to

maybe, uh, yeah, to maybe
provide a different way of

running or to provide a runway.

But I know, when I came in here
, um, in the early 2021, it was

super like, it was just like,
you know, like once it once it

clicked for me, it clicked, you
know, and I have a lot of

reasons for, like, why I want to
be here, um, but I'm very

curious, like as an artist
coming into the space, you know,

I know there was probably a, a
period where you were like

really hustling, uh, you know,
to kind of figure your way out

here, um.

So I'd love to kind of know
what were some of like the um,

like, what were some of the
early struggles when you first

came in here.

I guess, as there is a question
I'm looking for uh, kind of

like pre blue, like pre blue,
like yeah, yeah, like in the

space.

Speaker 2: Hmm, I don't know.

I feel like the space is pretty,
uh, aside from being really

fast, I feel like the biggest
struggles were with um, me just

being in a not really having
exactly at the very, very

beginning, like still like even
earlier than that I still was

just experimenting and not
really having a proper procedure

with my art.

Now I am very, very, very like
deliberate with everything and

you can kind of see it with like
um, even if it was always

centered around like kind of
energy, archetypes or figures,

it still was like more random,
and now you can see that there's

like a very cohesive line.

So that would like.

I mean I feel like the biggest
challenge for me was just

evolving as an artist still
within all of that movement and

that fast pace environment of
the of like the bull run or

whatever.

But yeah, I mean uh, yeah, I
mean the space is still like a

very like it can be a headache,
but I try to not really give it

too much attention, especially
now Totally Um and it feels like

yeah, and I'd like to like
click on, like how do you like

what's kind of like the way you
counter that?

Speaker 1: you know, cause I I
noticed that it's it's really

challenging sometimes to to
counter some of the excitement

or to challenge you know to to
like figure out like okay, when

do I need a break, when do I not
?

Like, how have you, how have
you kind of navigated that Cause

?

I feel like you've done really
well at like taking breaks and

like figuring stuff out for it
for yourself.

Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, well, I
mean, um, honestly, like I do

feel like I was able to make a
proper body of work and I'm

proud of what I've made, but I
also feel like, um, a lot of the

stuff that happened was also
like good timing, uh, and luck

in the sense of, like I'm not
like a mastermind marketer.

Most of my drops didn't have
mastermind marketing or

marketing team or whatever.

I was just literally dropping
stuff because it was ready.

Um, I feel like already that
can give a perspective where I

wasn't trying to kind of I
wasn't really playing some sort

of like optimizing game.

Uh, it just kind of happened
the way it did and everything

kind of fell in place and like
it already kind of sets the way

the well, sets the path into
like not being able to

disconnect from all the noise
because, like from the beginning

and never truly dictated
whatever I was doing, and so, um

, just growing as an individual,
getting more and more confident

into my procedure.

My message and all of that is
just that the, the sort of noise

from the space, gets like ever
more so dim compared to other

concerns such as making certain
projects, uh, completing certain

projects, making the best
project possible, looking out to

push even further the
expression.

Like these are way more
challenging than whatever likes

going on with.

Speaker 1: like the big founders
or whatever, like uh, yeah,

totally I mean, and that and
that makes sense and I

appreciate you like sharing that
and it's cool to hear, kind of

how you've how you've evolved.

And you mentioned like, uh, you
mentioned like there's a lot

more cohesion, uh, a lot more
through lines, uh, in the work

today than kind of when you were
figuring it out.

So I like you know, as a as
just selfishly, what I remember

when, when this happened, I
would love to just kind of

double click on, uh, you know
the blue rooms a little bit here

.

Um, you know cause I remember,
I remember when it came out, of

course, I just remember what
happened on the timeline, uh,

and I was just thinking like wow
, like this just kind of

happened and it kept the space.

It kept the attention of a
space that can't keep, that has

the attention span of like a
cockroach, you know, and it kept

the attention of the space for
like a month or pretty, like, at

least at least strongly like
two, three weeks Uh wonderful,

yeah, and and like a lot of
people thought it was very

primitive, they premeditated, I
don't know.

Speaker 2: A lot of people
really assume it was like a very

big planning of that.

But, um, it all happened quite
like it just kind of happened,

and I I'm probably, I probably
have a very incredible angel on

my shoulder that guides my path,
because it's kind of crazy that

it just kind of happened Like,
um, and I'm sure that maybe,

like on a subconscious level,
I'm doing things that made it

possible for it to happen.

Uh, but still, you know, I was
just like oh, I'm going to make

an auto portrait.

It's only going to be blue,
because that's how I see myself

and I'm just going to mint it.

And then I'm going to make a
funny tweet saying that the

color blue is CC zero now, and
that I'm and and all of that.

Speaker 1: And then it went
crazy.

What was the emotional impact
from that?

Seeing all that?

Speaker 2: I started seeing my
therapist again.

It was just too much Like
honestly, it was just too much

stimuli.

It kind of froze me.

I was kind of just overwhelmed.

Uh, so I had to see a therapist
again, but then I then I was

able to kind of like I guess
that would be a good pinpoint on

when I started to truly
separate myself from the space.

Maybe it feels very more
intuitive because I did that

work when blur happened, because
I just couldn't psychologically

keep up with what was happening
with blur.

It was just way too much for me
to take in, and so I was forced

to make separation at some
point.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a
lot of sense, man, and I'm glad

you kind of framed it like that,
because there's definitely a

like that's kind of what we were
dancing around is.

There's a separation, and I
think that happens like where

one kind of separates from
external external, I guess,

events or external happenings or
you know, and kind of like

hones in or dials it in a little
bit.

I guess, once the dust settled,
you know like how did that?

Like you know, you went through
your therapist and like that's,

that's why it was a wild
experience.

Like just I was just thinking
that when you release, I'm like

this guy is an incredibly
emotionally sensitive being and

I know I am as well, and I'm
just I was trying to put myself

into my shoes and like how would
I react to that as well.

But there was this definitely a
shift in momentum and, if you

don't mind sharing, like what
was some of the biggest like I

guess, awakenings or I guess the
biggest learnings from that,

that really kind of helped shape
that next chapter of your

artistic vision.

Speaker 2: Honestly, I think the
like, the most like most of I

don't think most of these happen
during blur or after blur.

Those would be like just like a
continuous path in my opinion.

But it's certainly.

Surely blur had forced me to be
able to say, like it's just

online stuff In the sense where,
like, yeah, I can just get a

hundred notifications every 10
minutes.

But like it's just online stuff
.

Like I'm outside, I'm with my
cats, I'm with my friends, it's

like I don't need to force
myself to be in front of that

I'm, I like there's a whole
world all around me aside from

the screen.

So I guess it really helped me
to see that.

But everything that was going on
within my art was already like

like, for example, like the blue
rooms were premeditated like a

long time before my first blue
room mint, I had even planned I

went all the way to Los Angeles
to shoot with a few models I

really liked.

I took the pictures, came back,
started working from them and

yeah, I mean especially like
from the beginning, you can see

that there's like no cohesion in
my subjects, like I was just

shooting with whoever that was
nice and that wanted to work

with me, especially at the
beginning who was down to work

for maybe a lower wage gen
agency and, yeah, I mean, that

was like wait before I started
doing the blue rooms.

And then I came to the
conclusion that everything I had

no reason to fly to LA.

It made absolutely no sense
that I spent all that money just

to go take pictures there, like
that.

The dream of working there made
no sense for me.

I didn't have need to be doing
that.

And earlier I had work with
Calvin, which, like earlier like

in 2021, I had worked with him.

He was really cozy, really nice
guy.

We became friends and I was
like I could just shoot with

Calvin here, like, and not have
to fly all the way to Los

Angeles from Montreal.

And then I started working with
Calvin just because it was

convenient.

Honestly, it was just a
convenient.

I loved working with him.

So I just started taking
pictures with him.

And then it was around the time
where I was still putting the

symbolism in place in my mind
for the blue rooms.

So I was making the blue rooms,
I was touching on subjects that

were extremely first layered,
but I wasn't really touching on

the way I was building them.

And then that's when it started
making sense that I was using

those figures to depict like
archetypes within myself that

were facing the sort of void or
the abyss like the blue abyss.

And so once I figured that out,
I just started to think like I

need to start trying to pinpoint
certain archetypes to certain

figures.

So I'd been working with Calvin
, it was going great.

So then I started thinking like
, okay, calvin can represent

Apollo, and even then the
thought about him representing

Apollo came even way in the
future, but representing the man

archetype.

First shoot was with also a
girl, which her name was

Gabrielle, and she was
representing the women archetype

.

One of the pieces that got the
most out of line narrative put

onto was I Hate you, which was
the feminine archetype giving a

big slap in the face of the
masculine archetype which for me

was just something about
finding this sort of like

masculinity, because growing up
with like a single father and a

brother, I was surrounded by men
and I didn't necessarily get a

space to develop that femininity
and then everyone thought it

was something about love or it
was something about a dispute of

lovers, but it was always
archetypes and from there it

just kept going and every piece
I would try to figure a little

piece of the puzzle.

I ended up also feeling like
Calvin was also not only

representing men in the work,
but he was also extremely

measured and his poses were
extremely theatrical.

I felt like he was, he had
something more of like, he was

like a polo, some extremely
refined in these capes.

And I could feel that after I
read the Bird of Tragedy by

Nietzsche I think that's the
English word that I had a lot of

, I was superposing a lot of
Dionysian approaches or

destructive and extremely
impulsive processes, and that it

was like there was a really
interesting relationship in my

work between the idea of like
dream archetypes and like what

they come up under real
circumstances within the psychic

, and so it just like kept
evolving and evolving and then

it was like, ok, well, I feel
like I need to explore new

things and I don't want to just
be making blue rooms forever.

And so it just kept on going,
and here we are.

Speaker 1: And I'm man, thank
you for like really going into

that, thank you for really going
into the blue rooms and like

kind of giving a really detailed
breakdown of like how this all

happened and it it's sound.

It's really funny to watch.

I bet that has to be
entertaining to see how people

interpret your work versus like
the actual intention Of that

like, especially with the, you
know, the one where she was

slapping the man.

It was like that must have been
like a lover's quarrel, you

know, or that must have been a
relationship gone bad, but it

was just, it was two archetypes
and that that's really what I

found.

I remember I think you shared a
like a very small bit of that

and I was like that's that
helped me see your work in a

whole new light.

And something, when you were
like at the very beginning and

correct me if I'm wrong here,
but you were talking about first

layer concepts, I think was the
word that's like when you

started like developing those,
like what does that?

What does that mean?

You know, and like what are the
other layers mean as well?

And have you gotten there?

Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely Like
first thing.

I mean I was doing a piece and
all I had in mind was feelings

and or subject.

So I was like OK, I'm making a
piece about this feeling I

cannot necessarily write about,
but I can put an image on it.

So I'm just going to do that.

I wasn't thinking like Like I
wasn't internalizing, like how I

would get there.

The same way, I wasn't
internalizing, like all the

components of image making.

I was just like I have this and
I want to express this and I'm

going to do with that.

It was some sort of like just
putting stuff together which

worked at the time.

But now I want to be more
deliberate with everything, like

Making sure that I approach it,
the, in a way that makes sense

with the symbolism, and I'm not
just putting red people in the

weird aesthetic and it's OK,
like it's not.

Like I cannot just put red
archetypes and like a blue

background Just to put like
there needs to be something

behind it.

That goes even further than
just like I'm I'm feeling lonely

or whatever, like there needs
to be a higher purpose, or at

least I'm.

I'm moving towards this Kind of
inverse idea of like it feels

like the dissect,
desecralization, anyway, like

the like, the like, the
Stripping of meaning of art has

been going on for like almost a
century now.

It feels like it's like the
water is kind of changing and

I'm happy to be kind of going in
in the in the like.

If, like, the world is like a
balance and it's been going away

for like a century, I like the
idea of bringing back symbolism

and doing things that serve some
sort or that try to serve a

certain purpose beyond just
being Art for the.

I don't know if it's, I
wouldn't say art for the sake of

art, but just like.

Well, you know, like I kind of
lost myself there, but anyway,

I'm trying to bring more purpose
into my work and more mean Got

it and that makes sense and I
like the way I think what you

just touched on.

Speaker 1: there is something
that, like, it's taken me a

little while to discover it, but
like kind of understanding

you're talking about like the
world's undoing a lot of

definitions of, like what makes
art art, and I think I'm really

getting to experience that
personally because you know, you

know, I was I'm kind of like an
accidental art collector.

You know, came in not for the
art, but definitely stayed for

the art and found a home with
artists and it's been my

favorite.

You know it's been, it's been
where I spent like the most of

my time since I've been here and
I've kind of noticed that,

especially as I go back through
art history and I go through

museums and I go through and
just just I mean honestly,

tweets from people doing threats
about certain artists, whether

it's very on Mollner or you know
, any sort of any sort of like

artists in the past.

You know, and it's becoming
more and more apparent,

especially with, like you know
different, you know different

tools.

You know AI, generative arts
having its having its moment

with the combination of the
blockchain.

It's just, it's very, it's very
different, you know, and it's a

, it's kind of a new, it's, it's
very, it's very exciting, but

it's also kind of kind of nerve
wracking at the same time.

A little duality there.

Speaker 2: Yeah Well, I think
like what's interesting is that

you like, in the past century
there was a really like

something, really towards
aesthetics that was coming going

on in the sense where well, not
well, I guess can be taken both

ways, but like you're pushing
like a particular vision and

it's like you're, you're, you're
the.

The singularity of the vision
is what kind of gives it meaning

.

But there's anyway, there's a
feeling, or at least there's

this overarching shadow, that
the upcoming of AI and all of

those things kind of make like,
but first of all they make

aesthetics completely worthless
because right now they're like

AI still cannot reproduce my
work.

But I think that's the way it
is.

Right now they're like AI still
cannot reproduce my work

because it's it's a bit chaotic,
but like it will come in day

where you can just press a
button and make a T Joe.

So like, just like for
something, like the ideas are

becoming a lot more like
gentrified easily.

Like inventing something is
pretty much well, it's always

been slightly, but it's pretty
much of the table now or even

just bringing something like new
, it stays news for 24 hours.

There's this.

Not that I feel this notion of
like.

You need to kind of be serving
a purpose and having some sort

of story to tell, or there needs
to be something more than just

the work, because the work is
becoming increasingly fungible,

with, like internet and AI, like
, no matter.

Like what do you say?

Oh, yeah, but that's like, not
like the original.

It's like, yeah, but it's still
quite similar in like what,

like the difference bakes into
like the artist and what they're

trying to say, because, like,
in the end, that's something

that you cannot replace with a
machine.

I mean, a machine can tell you
like what you could be saying to

act like you are putting
purpose onto your work, but it's

not like having it.

Speaker 1: It's totally I don't
know what it was that you said

there that just like really made
that click.

I think those thoughts have
kind of been really disconnected

in my head or those feelings
have kind of been disconnected.

I haven't really found a way to
put them together and it makes.

It makes complete sense.

I've often had that viewpoint of
you know, regardless of like

how pretty it looks, like humans
, you know, humans are really

really intuitive creatures and
we can really tell when

something impacts us or not.

And I think that, yeah, you're
definitely right with with AI,

that kind of strips away the
visual aspect of it, and I think

you kind of just touched on,
you know, the next question that

I had was like how, like, how
you're, like, how you approach

AI and how, like, how you're, I
guess you know kind of grappling

I don't want to say grappling
is not like the right word, but

like kind of how like you're
conceptualizing it or how you,

how you think it's going to be
in the future, and I think that

it just makes I don't know like
I don't really know where I'm

going there.

I just say, like what you said
just makes way too much sense

when it comes to the ideas
getting transmitted.

Are you telling a story?

Speaker 2: Are you just making
something pretty, you know, and

I think that that's yeah, yeah,
I mean, but that's like what I

give meaning to and that's
what's important to me.

I mean, you can be making
pretty pictures, you can be

making even funny pictures and
that's also really cool.

Some of my favorite content
online is like absolutely

meaningless.

It's cat videos favorite on the
internet.

No doubt I absolutely love cat
videos.

But then, yeah, when it comes
to having tools like AI, first

of all, it's an extremely
amazing technology.

The way they achieved it is
extremely unethical, but it is

amazing Scraping the entire
internet and basically

compromise, like just being
ahead of laws and just like just

infringing like millions of
copyrights, if not billions like

I cannot get behind that ever,
I think, just because it's not

okay.

Like there's no science.

There's no like the sort of
like, oh, it's for science.

That's never paid off anyone.

They invented the bomb for
science and then they dropped it

on cities.

There's no science.

That's for the good sciences,
for science.

But now that it's there,
there's nothing to do about it

here at this day.

It's an amazing technology and
it's something that's going to

disrupt a lot of things, but I
also think right now it's

overestimated in the sense where
it's new and there's so little

of it realistically.

Even if there's like thousands
of it, maybe hundreds of

thousands, it's still something
that everyone is forming ideas

around and so there's not really
any standards for it.

And it's kind of like
everything's kind of on this,

like, oh, it's AI, it's new and
things, but like as of now, I've

seen very few.

I think like I still find our
virtual networks like guns, like

the gun by Pindar, what Refik
did with the moment.

Like I still find these models
a lot more interesting than the

billion billion photo models by,
like mid journey and stuff.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it is very
interesting and I think it's

having its moment, kind of
similar to like NFTs having

their moment in 2021, where it
was just, oh, it's new, or kind

of like the internet back in the
early 2000s.

It's very, very similar oh,
it's new.

We're just going to throw a lot
of attention, a lot of time, a

lot of buzzwords, a lot of
everything at it, and then the

dust will eventually settle
slight.

Yeah, it is a bit overestimated
and I'm glad that you touched

on, you know, kind of like, why,
like, yeah, why the you know, I

guess, the duality of like it's
here, it's an amazing, but it's

also you know how they got it.

Yeah, definitely ahead of a lot
of different, yeah, a lot of

different laws, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: And like, but like, I
respect like AI artists and I

understand why they're drawn to
it.

It's a really interesting.

I have fun with it too.

Sometimes I just mess around
with it just for fun, because

I'm like, oh wow, I am not
Michelangelo, but I can just

type his name and the computer
is just going to do something.

Painted like him, like crazy,
like that's actually like

fucking crazy, like on every
plane of existence.

Never imagine the computer could
do this, let alone give you

options, and be like, oh, but I
can do another one, oh, yeah,

and I can just change the like
the guy in the middle it's okay,

don't worry, I got you.

This is amazing.

It's just that I feel like if
you have something that strips

all the meaning to visuals or to
like the aesthetics of things,

then what is the function of
something that does aesthetics?

So basically, like without
contextualization and without

purpose, like I feel like a lot
of AI art is counterintuitive in

the sense that it disproves a
lot of fundamentals about art,

but it like creates these things
that it disproves itself.

Speaker 1: Yeah, does that make
sense?

Yeah, it does.

And something I wanted to touch
on here it's on the same beat

is do you think that, with
something that's now just so

visual and so, yeah, just
contradictory by nature, do you

think that this is honestly what
?

Because I constantly now the
prefaces were like, you know,

there's a lot of art I see on
the timeline and then there's a

lot of content I see on the
timeline, and do you think that,

because we're talking about cat
videos, you know, in the

beginning, right, there's
something that just don't have

any meaning, right?

Yeah, what's your?

Yeah, exactly yeah, and it's
okay.

Speaker 2: But do you think?

Speaker 1: like that's probably
what's going to separate, or has

this always been?

What separated art from content
is things that kind of maybe

have had a little less meaning
but are just like they make you

laugh, you know, or they, you
know.

They kind of lack a deeper
purpose.

Do you think that that's kind
of the separate?

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: And I mean, yeah, I
think it can be separated that

way and like I think it doesn't
only apply to AI Like my dailies

most of my dailies, at the very
least from the past months,

because before, like back like
two years, three years or a year

ago, when I was doing dailies,
there was like a higher purpose

always because I was taking them
very seriously.

Like these days, when I do it
daily, I'm just I'm just fucking

around, like there's no, like
my brain is like not thinking

like I'm going to make this a
piece of art.

I'm just thinking like I'm just
going to have fun today and I'm

going to do something because
like it's going to be fun, and

then and I already have these
other things that are really,

really serious that I'm working
on, and today I'm just making

something for fun.

And so, like you could say that
those dailies I do like the one

I posted just today and got no
breaks like I mean it isn't like

there is this aura because of
everything I've made before it,

but like is it art or content it
?

Like I think it's a very like
narrow space where if we push it

too far, if we push like the
need for meeting too far, then

there's very few art, if any.

But then at the same time you
know it's also part of just the

reality of social media is like
you just need to be out there

and posting stuff.

So, of course, like it's very
friendly, friendly with like the

medium to be making AI art,
because you can literally be

posting every day or even every
hour or every 30 minutes,

depending how much you curate,
and so I don't know.

It's just like all these
thoughts banging each other in

my head like add on, they're
just like hitting each other and

I cannot make sense of it for
now.

I'm not sure, I'm not certain.

I feel like it's all very
abstract and it's going to make

sense in like five years.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the way
what you said in that little

bit there of like the kind of
like the fine line of what that

is like, you know I can't
remember exactly what you said,

but it was like the sliding
scale, you know, of content

versus art and meaning versus
not meaning, it's a very narrow

one, because if you push it too
far, then you know, then you're

depriving the world of a lot of
art, you know.

So I think humans are still kind
of figuring that out and I,

yeah, dude, I mean I'm making
more sense, I know more about it

today because I found ways to
apply it to my daily life and

I've grown somewhat of a
relationship to it, you know,

towards like, okay, this is kind
of how this works.

You know, this is, this is how
it can make my life better, you

know, just in my narrow window,
you know.

But something I wanted to
transition on and something that

I know you've talked about a
little bit in, especially when

it comes to, like, museums and
auction houses, like in the fine

art world I know you've been, I
know you recently put out like

a tweet about wanting to have,
you know, work in a museum is

one of the biggest, you know is
one of the goals.

But I remember in the past you
were approached by an auction

house to put some work there
that you had declined, and so I

would love to kind of understand
, you know the like, the way you

view those, you know, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, of course I
mean, and not only once.

I mean like, like, auction
houses are no different than

like any seller, like they're
very happy to have any work they

think they can sell and make
money with it.

I think there's this very weird
link that people in this space

made because of how and if these
are hyper financialized the

sort of thing that if you sell
at an auction house, one day

you're going to be in a museum.

So I think that these are like,
yeah, that they're linked, like

strongly linked, which actually
has no link whatsoever.

Actually, there's even less
chance.

Even less chance except if you
fall into the ends of a very,

very, very, very like particular
type of collectors which are

very minimal in the markets.

If you get in the end of some
of these collectors and they do

all of the procedures that are
tedious to get a work appraised

and interested by and in contact
with museum and donated, if

they go through all that process
, maybe then you can become part

of a collection through
donation right.

But auction houses definitely
don't equate to museum

acquisition in any way.

They're like mutually exclusive
.

I don't want to say mutually
exclusive.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what
you're saying, but you don't

want to say it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: It's just because the
language barrier I'm not sure

if it is the right.

Yeah, I have no idea.

Yeah, they're not like, it's
not like.

Speaker 1: You can't say it as a
blanket statement.

They're mutually exclusive but
there could be in some rare edge

cases where they could be
linked.

But it's not a safe statement
to say that it's directly linked

as a whole as a guarantee.

Speaker 2: Yeah Well, I mean,
basically, what I'm saying is

that there's no link, there's no
proper link, like, basically,

and we have artists in this
space that are in multiple

museums and don't sell at
auction houses and don't even

sell that much work to say so
actually, and I'm actually super

happy for them.

Realistically, from an art
perspective, being part of a

museum is the ultimate goal,
because this is preservation,

like, your art will be preserved
and it will be recognized as

art and treated as such, like
being collected on the auction

house.

You only get that treatment if
number goes up.

If number goes down, it's a
totally different story and

people can change sentiment in
seconds and decide like you know

what Fuck that I'm liquidating
all that stuff, like, and that's

something that is just a
reality of being in these

hyper-financialized and
speculative places.

Speaker 1: I was just about to
say that seems like every

collector in NFTs.

Speaker 2: I mean, but it's okay
and like, honestly, like

without this space I wouldn't be
able to be making art full-time

like that, and I'm very
grateful for it.

Do I want to take part in
auction houses?

I'm still very, very not
certain about that because, like

, I can already at the very
least, be in direct contact with

collectors here in this space,
and that's already like a lot

better, in my personal opinion,
than just having it bought by

someone I'm probably never going
to speak to ever again, because

, like it's more like that in a
traditional art world, like you

know, there's no real
artist-collector connections

happening.

Speaker 1: That makes sense, so
I guess, go ahead.

Speaker 2: I'm sorry, go ahead
If you have another thought.

No, I was just going to say but
yeah, I dream of being in

museums, like that's the life
for me.

That would be like and like I
mean I say like in museums

because I don't want to have
like a single piece in a museum,

like I just want to have work
in museums, multiple

establishments, as a living
artist.

That would be like the ultimate
dream.

Speaker 1: Yeah, because it
typically doesn't happen till,

you know, not when you're not
living.

So the question I had actually
kind of lines up directly with

that, you know, because I feel
like Web3 and like I obviously I

love this space for a lot of
different reasons.

It's got its challenges and
like we're definitely stewards

of it.

But one of the things that's
really interesting is that you

know we're like there's like a
lot of removal of barriers, you

know there's a lot of removal of
middlemen.

So do you think that like, at
least from in your journey,

specifically you know, now that
you have there's this duality of

like having the collectors,
having a collector base that has

enabled you to create full-time
art, but also the ultimate goal

is to end up in a museum In the
traditional art world, is it

typically collectors that try to
get artists in the museums or

is it the artists?

Is there a mix of both and do
you see that kind of shifting in

this space with artists that
are like more I guess I guess

digital, native or kind of grew
up or have a big, you know.

Have a big, you know.

I have a lot of momentum here,
I guess is what I'm trying to

say Well.

Speaker 2: Well, I mean the
collectors that do donate to

museums.

There's a lot more of them in
the traditional art world and

because right now in NFTs
there's very few collectors and

I can count on my fingers the
amount of collectors that donate

to museums, and it's two,
that's it.

But aside from that, yeah, I
mean it's something that I'm

still trying to learn and I'm
having lots of discussions and

honestly, like the truth is, I
have no idea like the path to

getting into a museum, because I
would be doing everything in my

power that way if I knew the
actual path to it.

All I know is that I have a
bunch of ideas, I keep making

art and that I want to go there,
and I'm just conscious that

there's certain people that can
get to museums but selling at

like an auction house or like
there's things that just don't

link.

It's not like there's no link
and we assume sometimes that

because you see an artist that
is in museums and then there's

other works that sell in private
auction houses and stuff like

that, and you think to yourself
there's a link, but that's like

fabricated, so like it's
actually just like it's a matter

of connections.

Realistically, you need to be
in contact with like the right

people at the right time and
have the right work for the

right institutions, and it's
like a bunch of like weird

variables that just are
constantly moving and you're

just trying to kind of just hit
that target.

Yeah, and for what are?

The very least, that's how it
feels for me.

Maybe some someone like Raffiq
feels like it's extremely

straightforward, because he's
like amazing and he's in the

moment now and maybe it was all
planned that way.

But at least for me right now,
with my actual knowledge, I'm

just focused on playing the
longest game possible, because

right now I have no idea how to
get to my goal.

So I'm just like I need to
think 10 years in the future,

because I'm sure that in 10
years I'll definitely know how

to be making this happen, or
I'll be closer at the very least

.

But yeah, so that's why I'm
playing the long game, because

right now, like all these, it's
totally very fuzz and there's

something beautiful about that.

Speaker 1: I think that you know
it's something that and I also

think that, like you know,
you've gotten this far by doing

exactly what you've been doing,
by like trusting your own

instinct and like making art and
following your gut.

You know, and I'm sure it will
become a little bit more clear,

but I also like I also commit,
because you, the way you think

about things, I think you've
also like impacted a lot of

artists, especially in this
space, with like just being very

honest and very vocal about
that.

You know, like that's like what
literally brought this whole

topic up, you know, around
museums and auction houses is

because you've been very vocal
about that, and I think that

you've documented your journey
along the way really well and

it's really cool to watch.

You know, and there's also been
really cool, you know, kind of

like actions that support the
long term vision is like

something that it may have.

Some people may have done it
before you, but like you were

the first one that I saw do it
is like minting work for your

own vault, like minting work for
your own collection.

Is that kind of also the long
term approach here, and I,

because I just love, I just love
that and I'm just like dude,

like you're sharing another
timeline you're meant to get for

yourself and it's not, and it's
going straight to the fall and

I think that's just absolutely a
Chad move.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, Well, I
mean.

So I mean I do that with a lot
of work.

I think the idea that artists
shouldn't be meant to work for

themselves makes no sense.

I really want to own some of my
work.

I love that and it's okay.

And like and like, especially
works that I feel are like part

of transition, or transitional
like, so like, or works that I

feel like I'm not ready to let
go because I don't know if

they're like I'm ready to like.

It's just like I.

For me it's just really plain
and simple, but I don't think it

translated very well into words
.

But yeah, I mean when, let's
say, we talk about like yeah,

yeah, like I don't own blur
anymore.

Would I like to own it again, I
don't know.

Because, like the whole part of
it selling was a big part, I

think, because I would got
attention in the space.

People were like, oh my God,
big number.

I think that as a serious
impact in this case, we cannot

deny it and also it's in the
ends of big end, which is one of

the nicest person I've ever met
.

I've met him in real life.

He's a sweetheart.

His partner is also is also a
sweetheart.

Like they're amazing and
they're really happy to have it

and I'm super grateful to have
them as part of my collection

collectors.

But when it came to Rouge, I'm
making all these little things

in the background that are
unfinished and I'm not ready to

say that I wanted to be like
that.

It's like in the ends of
someone else.

Like we've made a custom, a
custom templateable license that

we will be able to release once
everything is done.

We even finished working on an
engine where I'm going to, we're

going to be able to send
invitations and burn these

invitations.

An artist can burn these
invitations through an engine

contract linked to the license
and then make them mint onto

another contract, but only
through that invitation token.

Like there's a bunch of like
real life licensing

infrastructure built behind
Rouge that I think was really

interesting to look into as an
artist, but also because Rouge

for me stands for energy, and so
I'm like energy.

I feel like there's a
connection between all energy

shared not only within Arkansas
but within the whole world, like

the plant and the trees that
plants everything.

I feel like energy is something
that's only present and all

connected.

I wanted to have that sort of, I
wanted to build that sort of on

chain connection and and like I
have, I'm lucky enough to have

a team that is comprised of very
talented individuals that were

able to make it happen, and I
want to be, I want to own that

like yes, and only now is it on
chain.

Like I want to at least own one
of my colors, like I do them

for myself to begin with.

Like there's like no reason.

Like from a perspective of like
let's say, my like market

markets or whatever.

Like there's no reason for me
to make like a color when I know

very well there's artists that
have been doing single color

canvases since the 1950s.

Like I am doing it because it
means something to me and I want

to do it for myself, first and
foremost, and I want to own part

of that because, like what,
what are, like whatever happens,

like these colors are always
going to be extremely meaningful

for me, and so I.

It was very important for me to
keep ownership of Rouge, even if

, like on the short term, it
probably would have been a good

idea to make it a sort of
auction like last time.

Speaker 1: But I prefer to.

But I also think that makes
blue a lot more special.

You know, it kind of adds
because, because you could have

done it and it from a from a
financial perspective, it

probably would have made a lot
of sense.

But I think the the the part,
the chapters in your journey, I

think it kind of solidifies, you
know blue, and it kind of like

effectively closes that chapter.

If you will, you know or you
know I'm not sure if closing

it's the right word, but it's
like you know it, that was its

moment and that was its own
thing.

I come from the reason I say
this as well as I, you know, as

much as I love I look at, you
know, sequels and movies.

You know, just to keep it on, a
bring it up a few levels here

is, you know you can tell when a
story is being drug on, it's

being unnecessarily expanded
upon, when it could have ended.

You know, on the last one or
the last three.

And it's a whole other topic of
how movies are shot these days

and what, what, what people.

You know that, yeah, again,
it's a whole other topic.

But I feel like there I really
appreciate when stories have a

natural ending.

You know, and they're there and
they were special during that

time and that was in there and
people will still talk about

that, you know what I mean.

And it doesn't kind of bleed
over into the next one, because

the next one is definitely a
very different, different energy

, you know, than the first one.

So, yeah, I just wanted to share
that with you.

I think it's really special
that that you've done that, and

I think you know I came from a
legal technology background

before I came into this space
and so you know contracts when

it comes like copyright and
trademark, that has always been

a very fascinating world to me
and like how this, how we were

going to plan on tackling that.

I guess you know from from both
artists and collectors and

everyone who just enjoys this
space in general.

I've always felt like, you know
, the laws that we currently

have are very, you know, are
very gray to a certain extent,

and this, when I saw this, I was
like, oh my God, this is

actually.

This is not only just an energy
, but this is also pushing the

needle forward as far as what
copyright and trademark law and

everything else could look like
on chain, and I just think it's

really cool.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I need to
think because, like, a big part

of how this was possible is
thanks to Emilio.

Emilio is the guy that did the
license and all of the legal

stuff.

He's, like he's a very
passionate, talented lawyer that

really is happy that we did
that project together Because

it's multi-layered, like yes,
there is this thing I'm doing

for myself, but also like it's
something that is like the first

time of our knowledge but like
of also like even digging, we

just didn't find anything, so
we're assuming it's the first

time, but it's the first time
that we're having truly

enforceable on chain lighting
and usage like recorded, like

that's like just strictly,
strictly on chain.

It's really cool to be working
on things like that.

Of course, like Emilio would
love for me to go to conferences

and stuff to talk about it.

I'm trying to convince him to go
to my place because it's I

don't want to go to the desert,
like I mean, for me it's really

cool, but like I'm not going to
be talking with lawyers bro, I'm

another degree for that but
like they're a whole different

beast.

Yeah, 100% you know.

But one thing that is certain
is that I really really love

working on Rooge for that,
because I felt like I was doing

something that also was touching
other spheres of society, but

in a way that didn't feel like
overreaching and also like about

like going outside, like Plakes
and Tangles with my first

project.

That was absolutely like as an
observation and I feel like it

was great for me to release
Rooge before that.

And there's a good like.

I really like the linearity of
my work and the way it builds

upon itself and on chain as a
chronological thing.

And yeah, I'm really, I'm
really grateful now that that I

was able to release the project
and interactive pieces.

Have you looked into the
interactive pieces?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a little
.

I haven't probably looked into
them as much as I should, but I

have clicked on each of them for
sure, and I have watched the

video that you put on multiple
times.

So, yes, yeah, it's very, it's
very exciting.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know,
I obviously don't have.

That was gonna be my.

You know, like I'm like okay,
what was?

Speaker 1: that was gonna be
kind of where I started asking,

because you know you talk like
you've had your own, you know

mental health struggles and your
artist of voice for a lot of

that, and that was like
literally the through light.

I was like, okay, we're gonna
get to this at a certain point,

but I'm like he clearly doesn't
have all timers.

Is there someone?

Is there someone in this?

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, or
what's the idea behind?

Speaker 1: this yeah.

Speaker 2: So what I want to get
into with that mostly is that I

do not have Alzheimer's but I
do.

I do know what psychosis is, I
do know if I do know a bunch of

stuff or live a bunch of stuff
that allow me to be able to

project empathy towards other
stuff than just pure OCD or

depression and these stuff.

Like, I wanted to make a project
about Alzheimer's.

It took me like a year and a
half from first thinking about

the subject to actually like
doing it and finalizing it, like

one year, one year active and
at least half a year before that

, just like coming in terms with
the subject, got it and I think

I was able to create like a
very particular like.

First of all, the piece was
absolutely inspired by the birth

of tragedy I was trying to make
.

It was extremely inspired by
Dionysian rituals and theater

and I wanted to make to use
dance to recreate the effect of

degradation, of communion in
inner dialogue.

I feel like Alzheimer's is the
disease that's the most easy to

grasp, how like it evolves for
us as humans, because it used

this very, very, very concrete
idea of memories.

Everyone can relate to having
memories and that's a very

strong starting point to talking
about other stuff.

Speaker 1: It really is, and I
think so as someone who has

their grandmother going through
Alzheimer's.

You know, like not, maybe not
Alzheimer's, but it's dementia.

It may be not it's not the same
exact same thing but there's

definitely like a.

It definitely hit an emotional
chord for sure, you know,

because dementia also has to do
with memory loss as well, you

know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and also you
know like often dementia is

gonna be one of the symptoms of
Alzheimer's, people with

Alzheimer's and there's
something about I think that

that theory is that plagues and
tangles is like it.

It's a terrarium like like
lipid Molecules, that kind of

work doesn't work with neurons
and it's it's like a no

terrarium.

I'll tell you that looks.

And I really like that title
because it really kind of it.

It really touches on chemical
imbalances and I I think that

doing it in this video format
about something like personally,

I Don't know what it is like to
have dementia, I do not know

what it is like to have
Alzheimer's, but I know what it

is to lose base with reality and
I know how On, like

unreasonable it is and how, even
if you know you're not touching

base, it still feels very real
and I feel like that project.

That's was like the first time
I was like I'm gonna like allow

myself to imagine and project an
Empathic view of how the victim

of Alzheimer's might feel like
During this the process of going

through the evolution of the
disease, especially the last

stages, because it's really hard
to get to understand them

because the further they get
into the memory, the artist

communication gets, and I hadn't
seen any sort of approach like

that.

Like most of the cinematic or
visual approach to the disease

are always about the close ones,
because they're like Because

they're like living through this
with them.

But I don't know, I thought it
was really interesting to try

put yourself in the in the shoes
of somebody that's going

through that sort of like
chemical and philozof, philozof

like Philzof, but like brain
damage, literally like just like

structural brain damage.

And yeah, it was.

It's a great, it's a big step
for me because I think I'm

starting to feel more
comfortable going out of this

sort of Purely introspective
space.

Speaker 1: I feel like it's a
great through line to like

really, where we started this
conversation I don't know if you

picked up on that.

You know we started with.

We started with internal
dialogue and then commentary on

the rest of the world, and I
love that.

We kind of like I love that we
kind of found ourselves here and

I and I think that I just want
to comment on on that because I

think that it's hard, you know
some, it's a lot, you know,

obviously Art is a, for me at
least when I go to museums, it's

it's, it's it's.

It's the way I feel like I can
connect with the past of, like

what people were going through
at a certain period of time,

especially in museums like I.

I always share this, but like
During when I went to the moment

, looked at like the, the work
in like the 1940s, and it was,

like you know, it was very
brutal because that was when,

you know, world War two was
happening and it was, you know,

I always think about if you
would have asked a bunch

different people from a bunch of
different countries what their

take on it was, they probably
would have given you different

words, but the feeling that that
would be admitted, or the vibe

I guess you could say as a
lighter word, would be the same,

and that was really kind of
what I felt.

And so I think that interpreting
something that is not really

interpreted you know, it's
usually interpreted from, you

know, the another perspective is
really I think it's just a

really tasteful way to explore
that.

You know, when it comes,
because there's no real dialogue

, you know, but you're seeing
the way these people move and

you're seeing her face, and
you're seeing her face like I

remember that was the one part
of that video where, like, I saw

the shock interface when the
people were gone and it was like

, oh my god, you know, that was.

That was really what really hit
for me, you know, and so I kind

of love that we just kind of
have this as a Conversationalist

.

It's just kind of a beautiful
way to start tying things off, I

think, you know.

Speaker 2: But yeah, but like
and yes, it's great that you

touched on that I mean I feel
like the.

That also a popular belief is
that Like the highest.

Well, maybe in some cases, but
I feel like there's a like.

There's a sort of idea that the
artist it gets psychologically,

the more noise there is, and I
never felt it that way and I

don't see.

I feel like the like the biggest
psychological, psychological

difficulties arise from
isolation Within yourself.

Like I don't think I was, I'm
like I like from having a

research co-habitants just
interacted with people With

Alzheimer's like in the late
state there's an overwhelming

amount of noise at all for them.

It feels a lot more like there
on the other side of a wall that

you cannot go through.

And I feel like even in
psychosis like there is, like

there is this sort of feeling
that there is an overwhelming

amount of things happening in
your head but it's bad because

you're isolated and that it
doesn't make sense with your

relations with the outside world
.

Or at least that's how I view
it and I think I was.

I was really happy to be able
to, to like put in in

perspective that way.

Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and I
think you did a beautiful job,

man, and I'm excited to like see
yeah, I know you mentioned

there was parts of it that
weren't you know that you were

kind of getting some of the
coloring done.

So I definitely excited to like
see you know the evolution of

that, but I do.

Unfortunately, this is one of
those conversations where I feel

like we could go not
unfortunately for this, but

unfortunately like I do have to
hop in about 10 minutes, but

this is like a conversation.

I feel like we could probably
chat for another hour or two,

but I just want to just thank
you again for coming on t-shirt.

This was like, yeah, I really
loved like all the directions we

went here and it feels super
cohesive and I just want to

thank you for not only showing
up but just, you know, like

going, I guess going down the
rabbit hole with me and sharing

a lot of your personal, personal
perspectives.

Speaker 2: Um, it was really.

Thank you so much.

It was a lot of fun.

I don't know if I sounded
stupid or not, but I really hope

it made sense.

Speaker 1: No, you did not sound
stupid and they're yeah, dude.

I mean I, because I think that
we get so caught up in like you

know, conversations need to be a
certain way or like we need to

like talk about specific things
at certain times, but it's like

I Find that to be complete
bullshit.

You know, it's like whatever
the wherever the energy kind of

takes us is like we're really
where we want to.

You know Really where it's
supposed to go and I think kind

of just allowing it to run its
course is a really yeah.

It's just, in my opinion, the
mark of a just a great

conversation, because if we were
having kind of like we were

talking about earlier about
Biotes, it's like you know

you're not gonna start off with,
you know, all these accolades

for the starting of Like having
coffee with someone's like

you're not gonna have, you're
not gonna have printed out list

of questions.

You know, when we have we have
coffee, like this is what we're

gonna talk about at this time
and this can be super scripted.

So, yeah, no it we.

I really love that and I think
we talked about some interesting

topics and I think that you
have a really like.

You have just such a
fascinating mind man, and I say

that with, with, with, a lot of
love, because it's really cool

to not only watch, you know,
your journey through your art,

but also how you, just just how
you move.

And I'm really like honored to
be able to help unpack a little

bit of that, because we can only
say so much on the timeline,

you know, we can only say so
much through the traditional

channels, and that's really why,
why I personally just selfishly

enjoyed doing this.

Speaker 2: Well, thank you so
much for having me, man, and I

agree, I mean, I really look
forward to even listening to

this myself.

Speaker 1: You're one of the few
you are literally one of the

few who actually wants to listen
to their own episode.

A lot of 100% have to.

Speaker 2: I mean it's because
when we're having this

discussion, it's it's all way to
, it's extremely present, like

there's no reflection, there's
not too much reflection, at the

very least while talking, at
least for me.

So I'm, I cannot wait to listen
to myself and I'm either gonna

be like, wow, I Definitely miss
the mark there, or I'm gonna be

like, oh, that that was really
cool and I like I like both ways

.

Sometimes it's like, okay, yeah
, you know, I I still need to

work on On wording stuff, you
know.

But yeah, looking forward to
listening to all of this.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man.

Well, luckily we're both in it
for the long game, so not too

much pressure, but I guess we'll
start.

Well, you know.

Lastly, before we we kind of
Head on out of here is like, you

know, if you want, if you have
a lot of places where your work

is shown, but like if you were
wanting to send someone To like

give a, to get, like, I guess,
redpilled or not, you know, you

know what I mean.

Like where do you want people
to go if they want to discover

you or your work for the first
time, or where you would do that

?

Speaker 2: That's.

That's a great question, I
think.

Hmm, I think I would tell
people to go on my website On a

TG add that you need to put the
three W's because it's a dot art

domain so it might not pop up
but it's a TGA on that art.

Basically Because there's like
a good about section.

I think there's a bunch of
links to all the podcast,

exhibition, feature articles and
in the gallery you can see,

like, chronologically, my work
and in good quality.

So I feel like it's the best
place to to look at my work.

Speaker 1: Incredible.

I'll be sure to put that first
in the show notes.

Man, yeah, Well, cool man Again
, yeah.

Just thank you so much, dude.

Are you gonna be in Miami this
year?

Speaker 2: Oh, actually, I'm
skipping Miami because I'm being

more deliberate with my
spending, being more careful and

I don't have any show plan in
Miami, so I prefer to to just

not go Because I have more stuff
planned for New York.

So I'm already working on that.

Speaker 1: more Incredible,
incredible and well, I'll be

there, I just want to give you a
hug and just, yeah, I'm a big

one that's to wait for April,
but I really hope that you come

by and that we can see each
other.

Speaker 2: We will for sure,
schiller.

Speaker 1: Schiller will always
show we, we usually go to Miami

as well as New York.

We always get a house there.

So it's yeah, for sure, we'll
definitely give you a hug, man,

but but just hang out for a
little bit after I stop

recording, just so it finishes
uploading.

But yeah, officially signing
off, man, have a great rest of

your day, my friend, you too,
thank you.

Thank you for listening To the
Schiller curated podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation as we close that

today's episode.

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Thank you for tuning in and
remember if you're looking for

it.

Art is everywhere and it's up
to us to appreciate and explore

the emotions it brings to our
lives.

Until next time.

This is Boona signing off.

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