Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the Shiller

Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with OSF, who is not only a

jack of all trades, but is
mastering each one.

He is an artist, trader and
co-founder of the DGEN's product

.

We start this conversation off
with lessons and triad-fi that

he needed to unlearn when
entering crypto the importance

of timing when it comes to
releasing art, what success

looks like for web-three, native
products and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now grab some coffee and let's
dive into this conversation with

OSF.

Alright, man, gm, good morning,
I guess.

Good evening to you, osf.

How are you man?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm good man.

How are you doing?

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, doing
well it's.

You know, the last time we were
going to record it was like

super dark and rainy and
thunderstorming outside, and

today I can't not keep the light
in, so I can't keep the light

out.

I should say so it's going
better, man.

Speaker 2: But how about you?

Yeah, not too bad.

Unfortunately, it's pretty dark
and rainy here.

It's been a horrible day, but
that's just the way it is this

time of the year in London say.

Speaker 1: Is it?

I mean, here's the thing Like
I'm from Texas or that's where

I'm based out of, and I, you
know, I feel like you always

want what you can't have.

But, man, I'll tell you like,
here in Texas we had a, you know

, fungi's on our team, so he's
like our Celsius guy, so I

always try to convert units, so
it'll be perfect for this we had

.

We had like three months where
it was the minimum or the high

was around 40 to 42 degrees
Celsius and it was like that for

two to three months was in no
rain.

It literally burnt up all the
grass.

I'm just like dude, I just want
to.

I want like three months of
rain.

Speaker 2: So wow, that's wild.

I mean, we had that last year
for like one week.

To have that for two or three
months, that's just insane.

I got it.

Speaker 1: It was brutal.

So what, what, what?

What I'm basically saying is
you guys brought the cool

weather to Marfa.

When you guys came there, it
was nice.

It was nice, yeah, man.

But dude, yeah, what I want to
just thank you for coming on a

long time and my first time
caller, you know, you know love

what you guys do with Rugg Radio
.

It's been cool to kind of go
back into your journey and like,

look what you've done with you
know with Rack Guy, you know

with D gens, with what you're
what.

What's your currently doing
with both?

I should say, and it was really
cool to like catch up on on the

podcast you did with these.

I think it was back in April,
yeah, it was really cool.

Like unpack that whole journey
and it's wild to like hear that

conversation a couple of months
afterwards.

Man, yeah, but yeah, dude, just
happy to have you on, and which

kind of like love to just you
know something that I know you

guys picked up on.

You know you guys kind of like
we.

What I learned from this story
with these is a lot about some

of the web three journey, but if
you're comfy sharing any of

this, like would love to kind of
know, like, like where you got

first, like where you first
started with art, like you know

what was one of maybe your first
experiences with art, maybe

even before web three.

Speaker 2: Yeah for sure.

So I think most people in web
three know me as someone who,

like, picked up art after, like,
I started trading crypto, after

started collecting entities,
and maybe nobody's like, oh,

this is a former trader, a
banker, who like moving to art,

but actually art was probably
one of the first things I did

like as a kid.

Like my family and extended
family are quite artistic and

that's that's definitely
something that's run through the

family and pretty much as a kid
, like I always used to draw

things, like I was always good
at art at school and drawing and

painting, which is something
that I just did all the time.

When I was younger, when I
turned like 13 or 14, and we got

like broadband and sent all
that kind of stuff, he spent a

lot of time online and then I
got into making digital art as

well, and back then there wasn't
any crypto or NFTs or anything,

so but there was like this big,
a big online art community.

Still it was called DV and art
back then, which is, you know,

maybe some people are familiar
with definitely a blast from the

past, but I used to make a lot
of stuff then and and post it

there as well and I was active
in all that the online art

forums and stuff.

It really wasn't that
dissimilar to the way things are

now.

You just didn't have crypto or
blockchain or payment mechanism

or really an economy for it.

But that was always just
something I did like in my spare

time because I enjoyed it and
never really thought I would

have a career in it or or that
it would be something that I

would do to make money or
whatever.

But it's just something that I
just enjoyed doing in my spare

time and then, yeah, I guess,
like after I went to university

and studied maths and went to
career finance, just stopped

doing it.

Really it's kind of a bit.

It just wasn't until COVID when
I first painted something.

For ages.

Like man, I haven't done
anything creative for like 15

years.

It's pretty wild.

But yeah, the art side of
things you know straight from

being a kid.

Really it was always one of my
favorite pastimes, I would say.

Speaker 1: That's awesome, man.

It's really cool to hear that,
and I take it that you probably

kind of had that moment I'm
guessing we're probably around

the same age, you know but where
growing up it was like arts,

like one of these things where
it's like it's cool but also you

kind of need to get a real job,
type of type of yeah absolutely

, absolutely yeah.

Yeah.

So that kind of that kind of
makes sense where it's like,

okay, you understood math, you
understood like there was a

bigger opportunity to be had
with, with trading, and then it

kind of makes sense that art
just kind of went by the wayside

.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a
lot of sense, man, I feel like

you know, I can relate to a
little, and not necessarily in

the craft of it, but I guess I
always enjoyed art as a kid, you

know, and then I never really
pursued it.

I feel like that would have
been a fun, you know, university

course to pursue or fun degree
to pursue.

But at the you know, the time,
especially in the 90s and early

2000s, it was like it's like you
should not do that, it's not,

it's not a good future, like
it's not just like if you be

prepared to struggle, if, if
that's like really what you want

to do and I, you know, I was, I
was raised really well and the

idea of struggling was not
something I really enjoyed, you

know, fair enough.

Speaker 2: Fake on it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But.

But as a kid, though, my mom
would take me to museums, she

would enrich me in culture and
you know, I was talking about

this in a space yesterday but,
like, I found a like, I just

randomly wanted a Leonardo da
Vinci like print.

You know, it wasn't even the
Mona Lisa, but it was one of his

other ones and it you're my mom
was just like you've always had

, you know, the, the eye for it
and the and the ear for it, so

it's just really interesting.

You know, I can.

What I'm basically trying to say
is that it's it's it kind of

sucks that it happened that way,
but I feel like that's also why

, you know, this space makes so
much sense.

You know, feels like a good
opportunity here.

But, speaking of trading, you
know, so, like you, you had a

pretty stored career that I know
it's where you met Mando.

It's like you guys are kind of
like this duo with.

As someone who, so just some
context, as someone who came

into the space with really no
trading background, I didn't

really give two shits about
trading until I learned about

crypto, until you could like put
culture on on, you know, until

you could trade culture, I guess
.

I guess it's.

Yeah, was there anything that,
like you've had to unlearn from

traditional finance when coming
into crypto?

Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot,
you know.

I think you know some of the
concepts still hold.

It's like you should have stop
losses, you should learn to take

profits along the way, you
should understand the factors

that affect your positioning and
and understand the risk and all

those kind of things.

But I think the main thing that
was different and the thing

that you have to unlearn really
is like in the traditional world

, you are taught to think about
valuation from like a model

driven or a fundamental basis
where it's like these are five

different things and if all
those things spit out like

certain numbers or certain
outputs, then it implies the

price should be here and that's
like generally the way you're

trained to think.

And then maybe I guess where
the edges is, like youth.

He's like you know, I think
this company is going to have

high costs or like lower
earnings in the next quarter

because of this and that's going
to impact this.

And that was like your thought
process Got it and it was like,

you know, if something didn't
have cash flows, if something,

an entity didn't produce cash
flows, then you would be like,

oh, this isn't really worth
anything, like there's no real

fundamental value there, and I
think that's the part I had to

unlearn.

That's why I was like
cryptoskeptic for so many years,

like I had had about Bitcoin
for years.

I just never wanted to touch it
because I was like I just don't

really understand like how you
can value it, like where does

the value come from?

And over time, it has.

You know it's still a very
nascent asset class, obviously,

but over time we've started to
understand and see the different

factors that affect Bitcoin
prices and crypto prices and now

you can say, like you know
these are the different risk

factors and things that could
affect this value, but it's

still like it's value is just
like what people deem it to be.

You know what I mean.

It's like what a bunch of
people decided it's going to be.

And I think that's the bit you
have to really unlearn for

crypto and for NFTs, because you
realize it's still a very small

market.

I mean, crypto market cap right
now is at 1.3, 1.4 trillion

dollars, which is tiny.

If you think about BlackRock
and their Bitcoin ETF, like

BlackRock manages 10 trillion
dollars alone and it's like 10

times 10 times a total.

You know market cap crypto.

So it's still a very, very
small market and you just have

to you know you have to treat
things like that in a different

way, I think, and that was the
biggest thing for me- Got you.

Speaker 1: And that makes a lot
of sense, because I always hear

people joke about.

You know, when people are
trading shitcoins like, oh, it's

the fundamentals, you know why
it's the team, it's the

fundamentals of why I like it
and it's like the fundamentals

of that, the number is going up,
you know.

Speaker 2: It's like yeah, it's
literally it.

Like that is basically it.

You have to understand that
it's a different.

It's a weird thing.

I think, like you know, we
start to see this with meme

stocks and GameStop and stuff
like that.

Like, I used to actually trade
GameStop, I didn't trade the, I

traded the bonds and, like our
analysts was like always bearish

on GameStop and we were always
bearish as a bank on GameStop,

and then you saw the equity
price going to like crazy levels

and we're like this makes no
sense because, like because of

this, this and this and it
doesn't really matter.

Like it doesn't matter if it
makes no sense.

If enough people get together
and buy it and if people are

short, then the technicals are
going to outweigh the

fundamentals, and I think that's
what crypto is.

I think Crypto's actually, in
my opinion, more about

technicals than it is about
fundamentals, and I think

sometimes the price moves first
and then the narrative comes

afterwards, and that's that's my
view of it Interesting.

Speaker 1: I was about to ask
you like, what do you mean by

the technicals you know?

Is it, is that just solely
price, or is there, is there

like more to that?

Speaker 2: I think there's more
to it.

You know it can be things like
you know what's the market ratio

of longs versus shorts?

Like what's the funding rates
right now Got it?

Are there like big sellers or
big buyers in the market?

You know, is BlackRock buying
crypto going to create a large

buying technical for it?

Like it's those kinds of things
.

Rather than, like you know, I
see a lot of people who are like

, oh, like you know, if you're
something on ETH, you know like

ETH transactions are slow and
like the TVL on this chain is

very low and that's why it
shouldn't be that high and all

that kind of stuff.

It's like, at the end of the
day, like, is that the reason

why people are buying?

Not really, like most people
are just buying because they try

to catch a trade or catch
momentum, and I think that's

what I mean.

Like sometimes it's not always
about like how good a certain L1

is, or like Even how funny a
certain meme is.

It's like more to do with Are
there loads of buyers of it for

some random reason?

And that's what I think, what
you have to be wary of, I think.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and that random
reason is really baffling to

figure out, because when I
talked to my mom about, or I

talked to my just my family in
general about this, they, they

have like zero clue, because it
feels like it shatters a lot of

like a Lot of the investment
principles, a lot of like what

they, because they invested in a
lot of stocks, so, like they,

they've done pretty well in the
stock market and it's like this

just makes, you know, absolutely
no sense to them.

You know, because it's like
where, where is the information

coming from?

What is the thing that is
making this go up?

Because it it's kind of
counterintuitive.

But one thing the through line
that I really kind of want to

touch on here is it's this idea
of like, if enough people get

together and say something, then
it is.

You know exactly.

It took me, it took me a really
long time to learn that with the

dollar, and I'm like, why is
the dollar, dollar like, why

does the dollar have the value
that dollar has?

Well, it's just because a bunch
of people agreed that it has

that value and it it's very
similar to you, though, like

when I first like came around to
Bitcoin, it was like I don't

understand.

Like I get it kind of, but I
also don't because I don't know

where you're supposed to spend
this.

I don't know why the number is
going up like that makes no

fucking sense to me, you know.

And then I understood like ETH
and NFTs were really what helped

it make sense to me because
that was finally something I

could spend the money on.

It was like, okay, cool, I have
ETH, I can spend it on pictures

and that's really like my.

That was like my whole
introduction to crypto and it

was like one of the easiest.

It was one of the easiest
interests, you know, yeah, yeah,

so it is.

It is super interesting to kind
of hear you, hear you talk

about that and when it comes to
you know, like when it comes to

the, the unlearning process and
what you know, kind of what,

what that looks like.

But I also think that this is an
interesting topic because this

is like this whole thing
democratized and we've seen the

benefits of this.

You know, we also seem like the
horrendous side effects of when

you democratize trading to
everybody.

I always kind of wondered you
know, why are there so many?

You know on one half I could.

There's a bit of duality here
where I can see both sides.

I can see why the, the trading
industry, has a lot of

regulations, or why it started
out having a bunch of

regulations, because this shit's
not really easy and like people

can just leverage a hundred
long and lose their life savings

.

You know, I don't know where
and in a sense I can see where

having laws and rules like were
really helpful In the beginning,

but now I don't really see it
the same way.

But it's also kind of
interesting to see this and come

in and kind of just destroy
every rule, that that, whether

it was the SEC or whether you
know when the SEC was born and I

kind of.

It's just a fascinating topic to
like see what this is both done

like both positive and negative
around.

You know how people like spend
their money.

On one hand, it's given people
like us an opportunity to like

make a living, but also, on the
other hand, you look at like

Celsius, you look at, you know,
you look at what's the other one

?

I'm yeah, yeah, yeah, voyager,
you know.

And also the, the stablecoin,
you know, yeah, why am I just

completely blanking on?

that UST yeah you know, yeah,
it's just, it's just an

interesting topic to see, like
the both the good and the bad of

that, and I guess you know From
from your perspective, like, do

you view this is like?

What do I, I, what do you think
like is gonna take for?

Is it gonna take for like this,
to kind of become not

necessarily the entity side, but
more in the trading side, more,

I guess what's the word I'm
looking for?

Attractive, because right now
it just seems so volatile.

It seems like there's so much
risk, you know, but I feel like

there's also so much opportunity
in defy, you know.

But defy is one of the areas I
just don't know much about, you

know, just something being
perfect, yeah.

Speaker 2: I think I think there
is extremely high risk in the

space because it's so volatile.

Yeah, and that's one of the
reasons why I think a lot of

retail participants shy away
from it, but I think it's also

one of the reasons why a lot of
people get in because there

really isn't any other asset
class right now when you can

make a hundred X or a thousand X
or whatever you know.

I mean, people are making so
much money and you know you

could say, maybe in the bear
market, maybe last year, there's

not really loads of people that
made loads of money, like some

people did.

But 2021, like everyone made
shit ton of money on NFT, crypto

, everything like the entire
market was crazy and you just

cannot replicate these kinds of
returns in Any other market and

the ones that you can, so maybe
like VC investments and angel

investing, that kind of stuff
like they're not liquid.

You can't just like buy
something and sell it the next

day and make that return in the
space of a few days, right,

whereas you can in this market
and yeah, exactly.

So I think like you're only
gonna get those kinds of returns

while the market stays the way
it is, where it's like very

Retail-based, there aren't.

There isn't much regulation,
there's like not many rules, and

You're gonna have a lot of
things that go up, a lot of

things that will go down a lot
eventually, especially after you

know these ETFs are approved,
etc.

Eventually you'll start to have
more regulation of this

industry and it's it's a good
thing in that it will actually

bring in more money into the
space.

I think you will have, you know
, high net worth individuals who

maybe Start to feel more
comfortable when they realize

it's regulated.

You'll have institutions that
will feel more comfortable and

it's more regulated or bring in
a lot of money into the space.

But what will happen is that
these crazy returns, they will

start to go lower, because, yeah
, that's just what happens when,

whenever you get more
participants, and especially

when you get more, you know
smarter players into the space.

So I think I Think it's gonna.

I think that's the way it's
heading, I think that's the way

we're gonna end up and I think
what that will mean is that

you'll just have like Start you
the volatility will start to

come out of crypto because
you'll have much stronger hands

and you know much more stable
holders.

But it would just be like the
equity market like you'll have.

You know, you the, the big cap
stocks won't be very volatile.

Then you have penny stocks,
which will move around loads and

that would just be the same
thing, like majors and shitcoins

and crypto.

If it isn't already like that,
yeah, I think that's the way

it's going, so it's, which is
fine.

I think you just had to be
prepared for it, position for it

.

But I think what that does mean
is, I think, just like when

that happens, the prices of
everything are a lot higher.

So, like, while ETH well, eth
is like like a 250 billion

dollar market cap or wherever it
is, it's going to be volatile,

but one day, when it's like a
one trillion dollar plus market

cap, it's going to be Much more
stable.

So the price will be higher but
the volatility will be a lot

lower.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel like
that's.

I'm glad you touched on that,
because I feel like that's

something I've had in the back
of my mind Like I need to figure

out how to like maximize the
opportunity I have now, because

I know, because if I do believe
in like, the tough part is that

because, like, I really believe
in what we're building here, but

it's like, also, if I do
believe in that that much, then

I I believe that it needs to be
used by everyone, or as many

people as possible, but also
means less opportunity for the

opportunistic.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it's a
double-edged sword.

Speaker 1: It's like, fuck man,
like you want it to go there,

but you also.

There's also a party that like
doesn't because other, because

if we don't, then this is just
the biggest gambling Ponzi

scheme that there ever was.

You know, yeah, yeah, it's a
double-edged sword.

So do you how?

I mean, I guess this is just a
wild prediction, I'm not gonna

hold you to it, but do you think
how many more cycles do you

think before we get to that
point?

Like, do you think it's like
one or two more cycles, or three

to four, or like, because it
just it feels like it's close,

but it also feels very far away.

Speaker 2: I think it's closer
than we realize and I think,

okay, okay, I think this, the
ETF stuff, is so important

because, yeah, you're getting
like two of the Largest asset

managers in the world basically
entering crypto.

Yeah, and it's not just Bitcoin
, like they apply for the ETH

one, and that's just the start
of, like, I think, many, many

things to come.

So it doesn't happen overnight,
it doesn't happen during one

cycle, but I think, you know, in
four years time, this space is

gonna look very different.

I think it's gonna look very,
very different and it's gonna be

quite financialized.

And I think people say Bitcoin
maxi will say you know, these

are removing the Ideologies and
fundamentals of Bitcoin, all

that kind of stuff.

And if trad fight gets in, it's
no longer like this big

decentralized asset class, which
is what it was meant to be.

But you know you can't, these
guys gonna come in because

there's so much money to be made
and you can't.

There's nothing you can really
do to stop that.

Like.

The idea of it being
decentralized also means that

you can't just like block people
from coming in.

Yeah, and yes, I think honestly
, I think by the end of this

cycle, things are a very
different structure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I
Totally think so, and you're.

I think we're already starting
to see a bit of that change,

like the market is, in a lot of
different ways, starting to

mature.

But I guess that kind of brings
me to like what you guys are

building at DGNs.

You know, like, so you
Definitely like, you've had

quite the journey here and I
feel I think it's really awesome

that like it's a hundred
percent community, you know,

like it's a hundred percent
organic, you know, and you built

, you guys built this from the
ground up, kind of having the

bottom-up approach, you know, or
instead of the top-down, where

everything just funnels back to
the original supporters of what

you guys did.

I guess you know from a term,
from from that lens, from the

builder lens, you know, put on
that hat for a little bit.

You know what is, I guess, what
, what is it that you guys are

building for?

Like it Is there.

When it comes to, like the
future, what does success look

like really for DGNs, you know,
maybe when it does start to

mature in four to five years?

Do you kind of have that vision
planned up?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we.

The idea was that we wanted to
create something that people

found useful and I think, you
know, back when NFC trading was

very active, you could have all
these like alpha groups and pay

groups on that kind of stuff and
really it was just like people

showing stuff and pumping dumps
and they're not really great for

people entering the market.

So I think we wanted to create
and build something that was

like informational, where it
wasn't like hey, I think you

know, go out there and buy cool
cats or sell deadfellas or

whatever.

It was more like these are the
positives and negatives of each

project.

And here's this big like
statistical, quantitative, like

toolkit you can use to help you
analyze and make the decisions,

and then you can go out there
and make this decisions for

yourself.

So I think the idea was really
like Educate people, like how to

become their own trader and
like come to their own decisions

and and it was, you know, meant
to be for the NFT market and

obviously I think by the time we
built everything out and I'm

just gonna crash so just, we
just didn't really get like,

yeah, the hits of the, the
viewership that I think we would

have liked and that's just like
a macro thing.

There's not really much we can
do about it, but, you know, it's

just like.

I think we want to have Like
this toolkit or a platform or a

hub that people can use to get
cleared up on, and maybe it's

not just NFC, maybe it's crypto
and maybe something much larger,

but something that's just, is
very unbiased and objective and

that is like informational to
combat All the, I think, like

misinformation there is out
there and bad actors that are on

the space, etc.

Etc.

Speaker 1: Totally.

What is that?

Is that you think is the is
like the misinformation.

Do you think that's like the
biggest challenge, or what do

you guys view as like the
biggest challenge for you guys

achieving that goal?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think
the biggest challenge is

there's probably lots of other
like data providers or or

Research providers and all that
kind of stuff out there.

I think, to be honest with you,
the biggest challenge is if

someone is like, hey, I'm not
sure if they join my pay group.

We all made like 300% this
shitcoin last week.

Someone is much more likely to
join that and they are like our

thing.

I think that's the biggest
challenge.

But I Think we are quite
adamant that we're not trying

like hype things and play hype
cycles to get those people on,

have loads of people Disappoints
and that kind of stuff thing.

If we just create like a steady
ship that's there and that's

feel somewhere evergreen, that I
think it's gonna be something

that will be meaningful over a
longer period of time, rather

than like hey, this is a great
pay group in like summer 2021,

but now it's no way, sort of
thing.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I mean, it sounds like what you
guys are building for is kind

of the future that we talked
about just a bit ago, where it's

like maybe and you know, four
to five to ten years or however

long it takes for the market to
mature, it's like it feels like

you guys would be like the
perfect landing spot.

You know what I mean.

Yeah, it's like.

It's like we've been doing this
, we've been do it.

We've resisted the, you know
the pump it up, paid groups.

We've resisted the, the quick
opportunity.

It's like it just seems like a
sturdy product that you guys

aren't really in too much of a
rush to build, but it's more

about, like, the thoughtfulness
of like that goes, that goes

into it.

You know what I mean.

Yeah, it's not necessarily
about the cadence, but it's

about like is this right or is?

Are people gonna gain something
from it?

Yeah, a question I had about
this.

You know, cousin, kind of, as
we're on the same beat around.

Like you know, there's a lot of
different data providers, a lot

of people doing.

You know, similar things.

There's a lot of you know,
especially even in the

traditional finance.

You know finance market.

How do you like, I guess, how
do you view competition.

You know, like, how do you guys
view?

Do you guys view, do you guys
viewed as competition?

Do you guys like just kind of
like put the, put the blinders

on and like not really focused
on that.

Just very curious Kind of see,
like what your perspective is on

that.

Speaker 2: I don't really view
any other parts of the space of

competition.

I think the nice thing about web
3 is people see more.

You get to collaborate rather
than compete, I think, and

Whether you're just like a pfp
project or a date provider,

wherever, I think everyone knows
each other, so not really

worried about composition.

I think my view is like
whatever you create or you build

has to be Community first, and
even if you're building a

product, you kind of the best
products have a community around

then.

So, yeah, we have our community
and we have a very loyal

community and you know, I think
if we roll stuff out or we bring

stuff, we will get support from
that community if we do a good

job.

And if we don't do a good job,
then we'll lose that community.

So I'm not like you know.

Yes, maybe if you have like a
very specific product and then

like someone else makes one that
is like Much, much better and

cheaper and faster than you
might lose people, but you'll

always have a loyal following
who'll stick by the stuff that

you're doing.

I think that's the most
important thing.

That's whatever you I think.

Speaker 1: And I feel like we're
starting to get back to that.

You know, I'll admit Number one
I like, I feel like that's the

approach that anyone I feel like
anyone who not only Started it,

you know, kind of like was in
the bear market, but kind of

built and survived the bear
market I feel like that's kind

of the similar approach as well
as like there was just a kind of

a kind of more of a backwards
play.

It's like we're gonna we're
gonna toss it all back into

community, like especially right
now, because it just makes it

just makes too much sense.

We want to reward people that
are still here because, like

reality was like this year, like
in a little bit of last year,

was really hard and this being
my first, this is like my first

time around and I know you've
been through a few, but I feel

like this was a really, really
tough one.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree
that.

I agree with that for sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, it
makes.

It makes a lot of sense, you
know, and and I feel like the

point of that was saying like I
feel like we're kind of getting

back to that spirit of
collaboration that Was there

when I necessarily came here,
because I came here in like

March of 20, you know, 2021,
like a lot of different people,

and it I remember kind of it
being a haven of like wow, like

this just kind of feels comfy.

You know, like it what the bull
wasn't like quite there, but

you could tell the bear market
was over, you know, and there

was just like people were
putting out informational

threads and like most the
information I could trust and it

just seemed like really genuine
and wholesome.

Like wow, we don't really need
to like compete against each

other.

Like this just feels.

When you look at like the rest
of Twitter outside of this

little bubble, I think I think
it was a DCL blogger that talked

about her DCL investor was like
you know, we're at that point

where I look at anything outside
of crypto Twitter and it's like

incredibly polarizing.

It's people at each other's
throats and it's like, while we

do kind of have a bubble and
sometimes a bubble can be

unhealthy it's like right now.

It's one of those times where
it's like, yeah, like this is

just great, yeah, man, but kind
of like, kind of like switching

hats to switching hats to to art
.

I know you, I want to, I want
to follow.

I'm gonna ask a follow-up
question on Something you did,

something you said with these at
the time you were, you were

like you kind of had your day
all the way.

You're basically working until
like nine or ten o'clock at

night and you really had not
really much time, you know, for

your art.

Has that?

Have you guys made any changes?

Like have you brought any more
people on board?

Have you found ways to like
light and load in your and your

day-to-day, you know, to kind of
get some more time back?

Speaker 2: I think so.

Yeah, I think I'm.

You know, the first half the
year is like going to loads of

different NFT events and, you
know, doing rug radio and

podcast and all this kind of
stuff, and I was like man, just

like doing all this, all these
things, I'm not having enough

time to create and draw.

And I think when I got the
summer, I just put a hole in

everything.

I was like, look, I'm not gonna
do, I'm just gonna keep things

very simple, like I'm just gonna
do rug radio and I'm just gonna

Draw, I'm just gonna like have
a chilled summer.

Because I think I just had a
moment.

I just got Too much for me.

I think I was just doing like
so many different things and I

knew that I just had to put it
back a bit and just reset.

So I can't take the sound to do
that.

And you know, now coming back
and the end of august, september

, like I feel like I've Much
more streamlined and things that

want to do and I want to create
and I'm making art more for

priority or focus and I really
have to.

You know, it's very easy to get
distracted because, like I'm

never I never used to be like
okay, from this time to this

time I'm just gonna be drawing.

Where is like usually what you
do is you make, you know you'll,

I'm a phone calls, a podcast,
meeting, stuff.

You put me in calendar, but
glad to be that this time and do

this for 30 minutes, to do this
for an hour, whatever, and you

go through and follow through
because it's in your calendar

and you're gonna do it.

But right, I was never like
that for me.

I didn't.

Because it's a bit weird, is you
can't be like I'm gonna

schedule like 2pm to 4pm.

I can't draw for those two
hours because it doesn't really

work for me when it's forced,
only works when I feel like

doing it and yeah, and still
inspired.

So it's been a bit more
difficult thing.

But why you try and do is like
you know, like fridays I just

try and keep it light on the
phone calls and podcast, I just

spend time drawing then and you
know, in the evening so as well,

and just try and make it more
focus.

You know like just In my head,
be like, okay, this isn't just

like a secondary thing that I'm
doing when I have a bit of time,

it's like make time for it
Totally and I feel like that's a

big like.

Speaker 1: I feel like you
touched on a really important

topic here.

Words, it was it.

There's just so many ways to
get a dopamine hit here and it's

, it's rich and there.

You know, and there's a lot of
different things that need to be

done and there's a lot of
different ways to like, find

opportunities, a lot of
different ways to participate.

You know, and I found myself
chronically online, especially

during the bull run, but I think
that kind of what you're

touching on is like it's so easy
to, but it's also.

I also kind of find the topic of
constraints when it comes to

creativity really interesting.

You know, you mentioned like
you know now you kind of get to

block time off from that.

Do you find there's like this
is kind of a backwards question

to it, because there's?

Do you find that there's a
difference, positive or negative

?

Let's just go with like, maybe
positive, is there a positive To

your are a positive impact on
your art when you kind of had

not really a lot of time versus
when you actually schedule time

out, you know, because I feel
like there's a balance between

everything.

But is there, have you, did you
notice any positives versus

then, versus now.

I think what did it teach you?

Speaker 2: I guess is that
probably the better, is probably

better question yeah, I think
it's just a really tough one

with up, because even Even now,
sometimes, when it's like when I

schedule time for it, if I have
something that I'm working on,

I have an idea I've already come
up with the idea I know what

I'm doing.

Scheduling time for is like
super productive and it makes a

big impact.

Sure, but when it's a moment in
time where, like, I don't know

what I'm doing and I want to
create something, but I don't

know what Is I'm creating, or we
got bored of the thing that

I've been working on, schedule
in time for doesn't work because

it's just like I should do this
time, but now I don't really

feel like doing the thing I was
working on and I don't know what

to draw, and that's the
annoying thing.

Yeah, that's the thing I find
tricky sometimes and Is usually

like the best, my best, I think,
of the things I'm always happy,

the most happiest with, always
the ones like I didn't schedule

time, make time for it.

I just happen to have some time
and I just happen to have an

idea and it felt spontaneous and
organic.

I just went there and drew it
as a man.

That came out really well like,
but you just, it's really hard

to come by that and I guess you
can't just like depend on that.

I want that you know, if I
didn't have any other

obligations or Think I'm not
obligated to the wrong way, if

it didn't have any other things
that, like, I enjoyed working on

, then it'd be really easy to
achieve the whole time.

Speaker 1: But Is that?

Speaker 2: because I have my
fingers and lost different pies.

So, yeah, I don't know like
it's back and forth, really like

I think the way that come
around is like I might just have

a really good idea at some
point in time and I'll write it

down, can't start working on it.

Then I can make some time to
work on it and at least the idea

is already there.

So I kind of know what I'm
doing.

I'm on Assert some track, and I
think that's that's what helps

for sure the most I think it
makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1: you know it, because
I yeah and I'm glad you touch on

that, because there's
definitely certain elements even

to like what I do, where it's
like I found that having a

really tight constraint window
was actually really good for me

to help make creative decisions
faster.

You know, it kind of forced me,
I'm like what it could.

Sometimes I have a problem with
being honest with my decisions,

you know it's like why am I
doing something?

Or, like you know, sometimes
just overthink it when it really

doesn't need to be over thought
, you know, and it's like I

already know what I want, but
I'm like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm

piecing it together like you
know, 69 different ways, when it

really doesn't need to be.

Having some of that stress has,
like it's not always been

beneficial, but there's been
times where it has.

You know, it's like damn, like
when I'm really forced to make a

decision, like I show up for it
, you know.

So it's really interesting to
hear that, yeah, and I think

it's a valuable.

I think it's a valuable lesson,
you know, but kind of like

moving to kind of on the same
beat as as art.

You know, it's you Something.

It just an observation that I
noticed is that you have this

like, really Like that the work,
when, when you put out the work

, it almost feels like it's,
it's almost like just like the

cannon of the space.

It almost kind of feels like
immediately, it feels like it

hits right at the right time,
whether it's a one-of-one,

whether it's an addition,
whether it's you know, whether

it's the wreck IPP projects.

It almost just kind of feels so
In line with current events.

You know.

I guess what I'd love to like
know is, when it comes to

creating pieces like that, like
it let's just you know the, you

know came over what the piece
exactly is called, but the, the

degen with all the screens.

You know there's, like you
predicted the, the, the terror

lunatic.

I heard the FTX collapse.

You, there was a few like
little head nods and they're

about, you know Just things
about the space that were

happening.

I guess how long does it take
to take for you to create a

piece and like, when it comes to
telling the story, like, how do

you, how do you approach
storytelling?

I guess is the better is the
long way of answering asking

that question.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it
depends like pieces can take a

great something within Four or
five hours sometimes, and then

sometimes it can take me a few
days.

It just depends on the
complexity of the piece and the

idea is behind it and sometimes,
like I might have an idea and I

have one runner or a second run
, it just doesn't really come

out the way that I like and when
that happens I just put it to

the side and come revisit it
after a few weeks or a few

months and then have another go
and then maybe get it Right,

like on the third or fourth
attempt.

So it's kind of a gray area.

I don't really have a set time
for how long it takes things,

but I think the timing you
something that you touch upon

those, the timing of things at
the timing of wreck guy at the

time You're set to one of ones.

I think that's one of the most
important things.

Like when you bring out a piece
that is maybe a commentary on

current affairs or a meme of it
or whatever it is, you want to

make sure that it's timed Right,
so it's most impactful.

And if you miss, if you're too
early, then you know not enough

people care about it.

If too late, people will you
know we'll think oh, that was so

last week, whatever.

So you have to, you do really
have time things perfectly.

And then sometimes that means,
like you know, if I have this

good idea, I think it's like
fits the current vogue, then I

have to work really fast and
really quick and just devote

time to it to get it out on time
a thing.

And Sometimes the timing so
sometimes the timing is is like

deliberate.

Sometimes the timing is just
random, like for wreck guy, it

was never like let's get it done
by this time in time.

For, like the big crash, it was
just it just took me months, a

month to create and, yeah, by
the time we got it out, it just

happened to be that it came
right with a mark crash and they

kind of just worked pretty well
.

So you know, sometimes you get
lucky with timing, I think, and

when you could do get lucky, I
think that's when the timing is

the best because, again, it
feels the most organic, doesn't

feel forced, and I think that's
when things do turn out to be

very special and there's no real
way to like plan for that.

You just have to, you know,
bring things out when they feel

right in your gut and just hope
that the time improves to be

good.

Speaker 1: Totally man.

Yeah, because it feels.

Yeah, there's definitely a
sense.

Yeah, especially professional
DJ and just a few other people

with right, a few other ones
with wreck guys.

It's.

It's often kind of hard to
explain to people like how that

works, but it's just like it
happens when it, you know,

happens when it's supposed to
and sometimes you just get.

Yeah, sometimes you do get
lucky, but I, as someone who you

know, a shiller, were around
artists a lot, you know, and and

marketing and timing and
storytelling often comes up as a

big topic conversation because
a lot of artists we chat with

you know like the art is.

You know there's no question
that the arts phenomenal, but

when it comes to the, the impact
of it, when it comes to the

ability to like time it right,
or when it comes to Whether it's

using the right tools or the
right marketing outlet or the

right, you know how to, how to
really communicate it in a

really thoughtful way, that
really lands is often just like

one of the hardest things I feel
, or one of the one of the

questions we get asked.

You know the most you know as
it, just as a marketing company,

and I think you just outlined
it beautifully right there.

Speaker 2: So yeah, I appreciate
it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, yeah, it
just hits.

And I got asked, maybe kind of
as we're wrapping up some of the

art talk, is you know, glitches
really, you know it just really

fits, you know what you do?

And and I guess the the
question I have is, like, was

there always, just like Even
before crypto was glitched,

something that was part of your
DV and art portfolio?

Or was glitch kind of something
that came as a result of kind

of playing in the in the crypto
space?

I think?

Speaker 2: the stuff that I used
to make 15, 20 years ago was

not animated.

There are static things, and I
think it was just because the

tools I mean the tools existed
to make animated gifts and stuff

.

But it was much harder than it
was now.

And you know, I remember like I
was always good at drawing and

I wanted to draw digitally, but
to do that you had to buy like

this crazy expensive graphics
tablet that was like two grand

or whatever, and you know I just
didn't have that kind of money,

like when I was like 12 years
old or whatever.

So I started draw things with
my mouse and I just like I just

Doesn't look as good as I wanted
it to be, whereas now it's like

you can just do things on an
iPad.

And when I came back to like
creating stuff digitally, I was

like wow, like there's so many
things that I can do now and

I've like unlocked all the
different areas of creativity

and ideas that I used to have
but couldn't ever really execute

and and now I can.

And In this idea of glitch and
animated stuff, look, I think I

Never like made glitch art when
I was like 13 or 14 or 15 and

Glitch art obviously was like
popularized by X copy and it

became like this big drama with
encrypted, and those were

definitely Influences on me.

Like I like I'm a huge fan of X
copy and I wanted to create

things similar because I just
thought it was so cool, and I

think that's how I kind of like
Started by thinking about it.

But no, as time goes on and you
kind of just like come into

your own in the way that you
create your pieces and the way

that I might animate things or
the other stories that come from

it, I think, just become quite
personal to you and you just

develop into your own type of
artists.

I think so.

I think like the themes of my
art now versus 15 years ago are

probably quite similar and Maybe
even some of the pieces don't

look that different actually,
but the stuff now is just much

more visually striking because
there are so many more tools I

can use that allow me to create
things more efficiently and and

you know, in a way that I think
Produces something that I have

in my head that I can actually
not create, that I couldn't

before.

I think.

Speaker 1: That's incredible and
kind of on that, you know, and

I I Can appreciate the breakdown
because I feel like it's it's

all, it's just the common, you
know, it's just, it's just as

things grow, like things get a
lot easier and I feel like

there's a lot of, even as
someone who's not artistically

it's you know, who's never like
really considered themselves an

artist or like really had the
tools to do so, like I was

Terrible at drawing as a kid,
you know, and just not drawing

and painting, we're kind of like
the only things that were

really available.

I think, just with the suite of
tools is almost impossible to

not, you know, have at least a
little bit of curiosity.

So, kind of on the same beat,
though, when it comes to AI, you

know, as a tool, that kind of
is democratizing creativity,

like, how do you, as an artist,
specifically, how do you view

that?

Like, have you started to
explore that in your work?

Have you started?

Has there been any challenges?

And kind of overcoming that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I personally
haven't used it yet because I

think the reason why my art
looks the way it does is because

of the way I draw it and the
way I animate and Doing things

in a way that's maybe not
conventional, different.

And I think if I used AI to
generate a piece of it, if I did

, did it in a way that would
save me time, it wouldn't look

the same, I wouldn't feel the
same.

Like, for example, when I
animate I don't use, I literally

just like draw, like different,
like frames, as like a flipbook

style animation thing and
something that can take me ages

If it's something where it's
like you know, a character doing

something can be like 30 or 40,
50 frames, that's like shade

each thing, and it takes me so
long to do.

And I know for a fat life I use
like Adobe After effects or

illustrator whatever.

Like I could probably create
that character and, you know,

animate it and it would save me
so much time.

But I just don't think I would
get the same like visual final

product if I use that and that's
very adamant about just doing

things in this way.

So I haven't really explored AI
.

I'm not against AI.

I think there's a lot of
artists who will hate on AI and

just thinking this isn't real
art or whatever.

But I think, in my opinion, I
think lots of people out there

have amazing ideas and
inspiration and are creative,

but maybe they're not good
painter or not good drawer or

wherever it is.

But AI now allows you to put
those ideas to life, which I

think is actually pretty amazing
.

It's the same thing you might
be someone who's a really good

songwriter but you're not a good
singer, right Right.

But you can write a good song
and have someone else perform it

and then it can be a hit.

So would you say that
songwriter is not talented?

No, you would say they are
talented.

Then maybe there's not just a
good singer, but they have the

ability to think of good ideas
and be inspired.

So I think we shouldn't just
hate completely on AI stuff, but

there are levels of things
within this.

Speaker 1: I would say oh, yeah,
it's a much more like, but I

think you covered it in a really
great way for the amount of

time that we have, because I
feel like that could be an

entire podcast.

I know Lex Friedman does a lot
of podcasts on AI and a lot of

different people do as well.

But, yeah, it's cool to hear
your thought behind it and it

almost sounds like you found
your process, especially drawing

on the iPad, where it's like
it's kind of just like the most

confided.

It feels like that's almost as
much part of the process as the

final output.

It's like just enjoying the
actual medium that you're using.

Well, cool, man, this is
awesome.

As I know, we're kind of coming
up on the hour here, but as we

kind of wrap things up, we'd
love to kind of take a step back

or a step out a little bit of
your world in crypto.

What is your family and
significant other think about

what you're doing here?

Do you find it hard to explain
to them?

Do they have any thoughts?

We'd love to kind of know,
maybe, how Thanksgiving dinner

or the holidays go with you guys
.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think at
first I think they were like

what the hell is all the stuff
that you're doing?

I think I still find it
difficult to explain it to them

sometimes.

But I think now that's been
around for a while and it's hit

the headlines I've seen desire
can bring, I think they're kind

of like on board with it.

But yeah, at the beginning it
was just like what the fuck is

going on here.

But fortunately, I think the
people that are close to me are

very supportive of it.

So, yeah, it's all good.

But yeah, I still have a hard
time explaining things sometimes

, for sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine
because it's I often my family's

coming around as well it's
getting easier to explain to

them.

I think really what helped me
was that, especially in the

beginning, I was not really
making good financial decisions

and I made a good trade when I
was in crypto and then they saw

me pay down my debt and they're
like okay, so he actually not

only made a good trade, but he
also used his money responsively

, and so that's when they kind
of stopped the barrage of

attacks and they started coming
around to like being a little

bit more curious Does your
family own?

Do they have a wallet set up?

They own any of your work?

Speaker 2: My brothers do.

Yeah, my brothers too.

My parents don't.

But yeah, I should definitely
set them up for sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like
it's a good Christmas gift man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, yeah,
easy for me.

Speaker 1: Yeah for sure, dude.

Oh, I guess I want to.

As we're wrapping it up here, I
guess we'd love to kind of get

a little bit of a peek into the
future.

You know, is there anything
notable that's kind of on the

horizon?

Whether it's, you know, take
the however you want, whether

it's like for DGENs, whether
it's for REC guy, whether it's

for just anything unrelated to
those, anything exciting you

have coming up.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, if
you're working on, there's one

project I've been working on,
for most of this year actually,

which will be like a big
generative art project.

It'll be a free min and haven't
quite figured out, like who you

know, which pieces you have to
hold to get it, but I wanted to

make it.

Like you know, rec guy was a
free min and it was this big

free min and it did really well
and I really believe in the

networking effects you get from
doing something like that.

So I wanted to do some things
similar for this.

And yeah, I mean, I started
working on it like probably like

December last year.

So I'm still and it's not like
I'm doing it every day, but you

know, I come back to it here and
then and I would love to try

and release it by the end of
this year, but we'll see how

that goes.

I'd love to try and tie it, to
be honest, but I'd love to try

and time it with the NFT market
picking up again, because I

think it can be very.

If I launched this thing like
three months ago, normal would

have cared, but if I launched it
when the NFT market's hot, then

I think, you know, hopefully
people will be able to make a

lot of money on it, which is
what I'm trying to achieve with

it.

So, yeah, definitely stay tuned
for that.

I think it's something that I'd
like to complete and get out

over the next two or three
months.

Speaker 1: I think, love that
and I think there's just really,

I think, especially with some
of the tools that are coming out

, it's really fun to see artists
of different genres kind of

explore generative art, because
generative art, you know, is

kind of having its time.

It's obviously been an art form
for way longer than we, you

know, than crypto's ever existed
for, but it's really cool to

kind of see artists figure out
how to make something like where

it makes sense to tell the
story in a generative way, you

know, versus a traditional way.

So I really love that man and
definitely will stay tuned, I

guess.

One last question I really
wanted to ask this before but I

forgot and this topic really
brings it up.

Well, you know, I saw like a
couple, you know it seems like a

lot of the posts that, or a lot
of the minutes that you put out

, like I know the last one got,
I think it got bodied, you know.

So, when it comes to like
releasing, you know, I guess, as

you've evolved and grown as an
artist, you know how do you kind

of like, how do you kind of
think about, like, making work

when you know like and I hate
obviously you don't know, but

like there's, there's times
where, as you, as you've grown,

you obviously know the demand is
higher every time you release

something, and so there's a
higher chance of it getting

bodied.

You know, kind of, how do you
think about, you know mints,

when you, when you think about
releasing them, like whether

it's a one of one, whether it's
an addition, how do you like

really look at what's the word
I'm looking for?

You know token gating stuff
versus making it available to

the public?

I guess, how do you, how do you
bring more people into your

work in a more thoughtful way?

I guess is the?

Is the?

Is the good question?

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good
question.

It's a tough one because, you
know, I'm at the stage now where

everything I bring out I want
to reward existing holders and I

want everyone to get you know,
keep getting rewarded and keep

feeling like they're valued.

At the same time, the only way
you can grow your community and

grow your holder basis by
including new people as well.

So I think you know, when I do
small drops and small mints, I

think I'll mainly make them for
holders and maybe since I opened

up something up to the public.

But I think when you do a large
one, you have to really think

about like.

Okay, I want to distribute like
X percent to my existing

community on, distribute like Y
percent to like the, the, the

whales, or like the one of one
holders or the people who've

like supports you the most, like
from an ETH perspective.

And then you want to distribute
Z percent to like just the

public and find a way to
mitigate bots.

Whether you just do it by a
lullous raffles or whatever it

is, find ways to mitigate bots
because if you don't have that

last component, then you're
going to miss out on being able

to grow and expand your
community.

But if you just do a massive
public mint without rewarding

your existing guides, you're
going to lose face very quickly

and I think we've seen projects
make that mistake and trip up

that way this year.

So you have to have a bit of
both and you have to be very

thoughtful and cognizant about
how every policy will feel

depending on your actions, and
then try and conduct your

actions with you know, showing
that you've actually made those,

made those thoughts in your
head.

I think.

Speaker 1: Totally.

That makes a lot of sense, man,
and I'm really I'm thanks for

kind of, you know, sharing that
breakdown, because it's it kind

of it's ironically back to the
through line that we talked

about in the original part of
the conversation about you know,

like it's great that the
opportunity is so volatile and

crypto, but it also we need to,
like, you know, like part of

this, growing is bringing more
people in, you know, and that's

just kind of the consequence of
growth, you know, but it's it is

very interesting to see how
people toe the line of, because,

especially people that have,
you know, especially looking at

your super rare sales, it's like
, you know, those people

supported you bigly, you know,
and for the longest time.

So it's like you can't, you
can't, like you have to keep

everyone happy, and it's that's
it.

That's a tough challenge, man.

So good as you for doing that,
because it's got to be tough

when you start thinking about it
, because there's the creative

practice and there's the
thoughtfulness of your holders

and community, and then there's,
you know, then there's like how

you want to, how you want to
release it.

Then there's, you know, I mean,
what if I pissed someone off?

I mean there's, there's a lot
to think about man and I feel

like artists in this space wear
a lot of different hats and

there's a lot more than just
creating the art.

Because, you know, like, I feel
like the irony is that you know

, Web through removes the
middleman.

But I think we're kind of we're
starting to come back to like

maybe not all middlemen were bad
, like a good chunk of them

probably were, you know, but
some of them provided some real

value here.

Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, yeah so
but cool man.

Speaker 1: Well, this has been,
this has been a phenomenal time

and thanks again for spending
that.

I think I got you out like five
minutes before.

I feel like I did.

I feel like I did really good
there.

Speaker 2: You did good.

Appreciate that.

Speaker 1: You got it, man.

Well, hey, dude, just hang out
for just a little bit afterwards

, so it finishes uploading.

But this has been a great time,
man, and I hope you have a

great rest of your evening.

Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome, you
too, thanks a lot for having me.

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Shuler curated

podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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