Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to Vaulted, a

Web3 podcast series from the
Shiller Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on June 6, 2022 and

features Erin McIan, or as many
know her, on X Life with Art.

Erin is a Toronto-based collage
artist with a background in

fine art and education and over
15 years experience as a

practicing artist.

In this episode, we discuss how
Web3 changed the trajectory of

her career as an artist, the
limitless reasons for making art

, the rewards of being an art
teacher and so much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and Guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Erin.

Gm.

Anna.

How are you, erin?

I'm sorry, I just told you Anna
GM Erin, how are you?

Speaker 2: I'm good GM Kyle.

I'm excellent today.

Thank you.

Speaker 1: Good, I won't edit
that out.

You have my words, so that way
I can look just as much like a

fool.

Speaker 2: It's all natural I'll
probably say some foolish

things too.

I'm nervous.

Speaker 1: Yeah right.

So yeah, we're all human here.

Any time someone tells me like,
oh, I need to do my hair, I

need to do this, I'm like we're
in a bear market in Web3.

Like, come as you are, like it
doesn't matter, like this is

where we're early right, as the
meme goes, that's true.

Yes.

Speaker 2: Well, now I think
it's good to show myself because

I'll be in New York and so
people will recognize me,

hopefully if there's people
there because I heard when you

go it's like you don't even
realize you're standing right

beside somebody you know, and so
this way, hey guys, I'm Erin,

take a good look and call me out
in New York.

Speaker 1: That's right.

I had that happen to me when I
was at South by Southwest.

That was.

You know, it was so cool to
like, get to like when I saw, I

heard Ed Balloon's voice and I'm
like I haven't seen Ed

Balloon's face, I'm like no shot
, that's Ed Balloon Like.

And I saw it.

I'm like that's fucking Ed
Balloon, you know.

And I saw Dave and I saw it
like it was just suffer Oaks.

I mean it was just, it was an
absolute blast.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really
looking forward to New York.

Speaker 1: Is this your first
time doing an entity event?

Yeah, it is Nice Right now.

It's going to be overwhelming.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't had a
chance, just you know.

Speaker 1: Do a.

Let's do a brief introduction,
erin, who, like I've been

following you for since well
shit, like probably September,

august, september of last year,
I and I told you in our DM I

found you in like a random.

It was like an on cyber gallery
.

It was like when on cyber was
first like doing their digital

galleries and it was your, you
were like super nervous and

you're like I don't like doing
this and I don't know if anyone

likes this, but I do collage art
and I'm like that's fucking

cool, that's different.

Like I need to follow this
person.

So tell people what you do and
so that way they can become as

obsessed as I am.

Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Kyle,
it really means a lot.

Yeah, I do collage art.

I started with digital collage.

Actually, it was really kind of
Instagram that that dragged me

into collage in the first place,
because I I studied art and I

was into painting and drawing.

I studied painting and I did a
lot of painting.

I painted for years.

I was a painter, but then I had
kids and it was really hard to

paint because it's a lot of
unpacking and set up and

takedown and you know, just was
never really getting a good

chunk of time in and wasn't
really accomplishing much and so

things were getting dusty here.

Yeah, so through Instagram, I
started playing with all the

apps.

You know, with the, with the
smart, with the smartphones,

came all these amazing apps that
you could just do so many

things with playing with my own
photos, and then got really

bored of that and just was like
geez, I don't know what to do.

Is my husband really is the one
who kind of came up with the

ideas.

Like well, why not, you know,
do regular collage now?

And I was like, oh my god, why
didn't we think of that?

Of course, like yeah, let's try
that.

And so as soon as I did, I was
like immediately hooked, like

it's so addictive.

Speaker 1: How long have you
been doing this for?

Speaker 2: About almost 15 years
.

Speaker 1: Wow, that's right.

So some of your space is the
space is starting to come back

to me.

15 years, that is a long time
creating.

Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, analog
only, I'd say about 11, but okay

collage in general about 15
years yeah.

Speaker 1: Got it, and I mean
your website's beautiful Like,

when it came to like, when it,
when you were doing more of the

analog, like, how did that?

Was it more of just like a you
were creating it for you?

Or were you like, did you have
people, like you know, wanting

to buy pieces?

How did you end up marketing
this?

How did you end up like
starting like to get this out

there to people?

Speaker 2: That's a great
question.

I guess, you know, I always
wanted to be an artist, like,

although I teach art, I always
hoped that would be in shows,

have exhibits, sell my art,
Hopefully one day sustain myself

just through the sales of my
art, although I do love teaching

.

So I kind of I wasn't as
motivated.

I think if I hated teaching I
would have been like, more

motivated to push my art.

But teaching, yeah, I ended up
really finding my groove there

and loving it.

But what happened, I guess, was
I still always had this urge in

the back of my mind to, you
know, sell my art and be in

exhibits and make important work
and just be an artist.

So Instagram, you know, I think
, like a lot of people in this

space, it offered me a certain
level of exposure.

I started getting feedback,
like, if you can't get into

shows, you're at least getting
feedback from people through

Instagram.

I love your work I love this.

I love that.

I love you know this part of it
.

And then you start to get
questions like, oh, is this for

sale, do you have a website?

And it's like, oh, ding, ding,
ding, like yeah, I should get on

that.

And so very early on it was
okay like get a website.

And you know, you build this
slowly.

First it's just a couple pages
and then you start adding more

to it, and then I added a shop
to it and so basically just kind

of built it up slowly and
through Instagram I started to

have a demand for for my work
and I just kind of feeding it

and fostering it and then
applying to shows and applying

to exhibits and just trying to
get my stuff out there.

Speaker 1: Love it.

No, I love it.

And you mentioned, you know,
like one one little.

It's not really a little bit,
we didn't elaborate on this, but

when you said, like you know,
like I want to be an artist, I

want to make meaningful work, so
, like what is the you know,

like what is the inspiration
behind a lot of your work?

Like where, like, where is
where does a lot of this, the

final product, I guess, start
from?

Speaker 2: I guess that most of
my inspiration comes from my

experiences of women.

It's very kind of a woman
focused work, a lot of nature.

You know I go through different
periods of kind of what my work

means, but one thing I always
was trying to communicate was a

sense of, like human connection
with nature.

Just that kind of to remind us
that we're we're such a part of

it Because I feel, yeah, we're
getting further and further away

from it.

I actually used to hate
technology up until about 10

years ago.

Like hated it, and then really
really yeah, it was weird

Because I just like I know I
love air conditioning and you

know cars and things, but it's
also like we're so embedded in

technology I think that we
forget that we're part of nature

.

We're not part of technology,
we build technology, but we're,

you know, part of the derse and
the mud and the air and the

water, more than we are you know
our phones, but anyway.

So I'm getting sidetracked.

I just want to kind of remind
the human connection that.

That's why a lot of the time
it's like a figure, like

embedded in nature, or with like
flowers wrapped around and

intertwined, to kind of show
that connection.

Speaker 1: I love that and I
mean just to go just to fuel

your tangent there.

I recently bought a record
player to listen to someone like

, and I just started getting
into vinyl and like it's and I'm

, so.

I've always.

I'm a little bit the opposite
I've like.

Once the iPhone came out, I
remember how, how meaningful

that was to me and how important
I knew that that device was

going to be to change the future
, and so I've always been on the

side of, like all technology,
and so what's interesting is

that the more digital we go, the
more I'm wanting to have

certain parts of my life, have
tangible experiences Like, just

like, because I'm huge, like as
much of a technologist and a

nerd and just just fascination
as as I have with with, just in

general, just as a blanket
statement, I'm just like.

I want a physical experience
Like I, plus you know, the only

the, the one, the, the whole
reason I got it was because tool

released a vinyl and I said,
well, if tools releasing this

vinyl, then I have to have that,
yes, yes, and I have to have a

system that will play that to
the best of its ability, as it

was intended, because they're
they're snobs and I'm a snob and

I want to hear it.

You know how these
perfectionists created that art?

Yeah, that's interesting.

Yeah, yeah, so go ahead.

Sorry, yeah, so I was just
going to say physical.

I think there's parts of my
life where I do enjoy having

that physical like interaction,
even even the more deeply we go

digital.

Speaker 2: For sure.

I mean otherwise, we're just
going to be.

It's going to be like Wally
we're just going to be with a

beer headset and not really
experiencing anything.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
, and we forget what it's like

to be a human.

I mean, there there's uh, like
I'm I don't subscribe to that

the view of like the metaverse
as the the ready player, one

kind of like Wally you know,
story that people, people really

love to like.

Latch onto that, that narrative
, and I just I think it's going

to play a part and I think it's
got its place and I think

there's really cool things we
can do with VR, but like I just

don't get excited about like
that being the predominant you

know thing I'm more of like
let's use whatever Google

glasses or Apple glasses or
whichever one is.

You know whichever one people
use.

Let's just like make life
really dope, like life's already

pretty cool, outside's pretty
cool, dirt's pretty neat.

You know, trees are pretty cool
.

Let's find ways to like
integrate this, integrate

technology into what's already
great.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Totally.

I totally agree and I like my.

My attitude towards technology
really changed when I discovered

Jason Silva.

Do you know who Jason Silva is?

Speaker 1: I do, I do yes.

Speaker 2: And he has these
awesome little videos called

shots of awe on YouTube.

I know he does brain games and
all kinds of other things, but a

lot of his videos are about how
, like technology is an

extension of our humanity and
that, you know, it's not, it's

not separate from us, that it is
an extension of us.

And when I started thinking
about it like that, I was like,

okay, you know, it's not such a
bad thing.

We, you know, we can use it as
a tool to communicate with

people you know that are close
by, or, you know, to see other

things, to experience other
things.

I don't have to look at it like
it's killing my humanity.

It's actually an extension of
my humanity.

So I just just kind of changed
my mindset.

He's just got such interesting
things with you know how.

You know we're not just here
anymore, like I am out there

because of all of this, like
it's really wow, like it's just

trippy when you really think
about it, you know.

Speaker 1: It really is and I,
you know, even hearing that I'm

glad you said that, because I I
didn't even really think of it

as like it's an extension, even
though that's what I believed, I

didn't really hear.

Like, hearing it in that kind
like hearing it said, like that

makes a lot more sense.

And you know, it's the argument
that I go to people with when

people say anything about new
technology, they're, they're

upset about it and it's.

It's not technology that's the
enemy, it's humans have always

been the enemy.

Like humans are always the
problem.

It's not, it's not technology,
it's not.

It's not the desk, it's not
anything else, it's humans and

how we use it are the problem.

And you know, love to hear like
I don't know if you try to

onboard a lot of people.

It's.

I try to do that when I'm not
at my day job.

But I just look at this as like
scams weren't invented because

because of crypto, like these
all didn't, like we didn't.

None of this happened because
of crypto.

It's.

Crypto isn't a scam itself.

I said, instead of looking at
there's a lot of scams, you got

to ask why are there scams?

If there was no opportunity
here, if it wasn't, if there

wasn't something genuine
underneath the hood, then scams

wouldn't exist.

Right People are always the
problem.

And what abuse?

Technology For sure.

Speaker 2: For sure.

I think you're going to have
scams in every facet of life.

There's scammers out there,
there's bad people out there.

I believe most people are good,
the majority I believe are good

, but unfortunately a few bad
seeds, you know, could ruin the

apple and with everything being
so new it's, it's probably a

feeding.

You know.

It's a feeding ground for that,
because there's a little little

loopholes and things that
haven't been, you know, figured

out yet.

Speaker 1: So that's right.

So I think it's a good segue
into your transition from like

analog to digital when it
especially when it came to like

web three, like calling, from
going from 10 years ago to like

hating technology, and now
you're literally at the cutting

edge of it.

Like no pun intended with your
collage right Like you were at

the cutting edge of technology
and 10 years ago you hated it.

So tell me a little bit about
the journey from like when.

When did you first discover
this space?

What was like the, what was
like the tipping point?

Just tell me like, walk me
through that journey.

Speaker 2: Okay, well, I joined
the most famous artist community

.

Have you ever heard of it?

Speaker 1: I haven't, I haven't.

I'm actually going to Google
that.

Speaker 2: You've probably heard
of some of their projects.

It's headed up by a brilliant
guy named Maddie Moe and they're

like responsible for a lot of
big projects.

One of them was like the
monoliths.

He's kind of like a.

He's like a.

His art is bridging on social
experiment.

It's a lot of kind of knockoff
work, but he does like a lot of

murals and site specific things,
instagram worthy like stuff.

He knows how to work an
algorithm.

He knows how to like get
millions of followers really

quickly.

He knows how to like work the
Google algorithm.

For a while.

If you typed in the most famous
artists, there was him and then

Picasso like literally.

Speaker 1: Holy shit.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's changed.

Recently.

I looked it up again and I
don't know the Google's fixed it

or something.

But for a while there, when you
looked up just Google, the most

famous artist he came up and
then a bunch of famous artists

Like it was really pretty cool.

So he started like a like an
artist collective and we would

do projects and stuff together.

So I had just joined that and
we were kind of, you know,

meeting and doing like fun
things, drawing workshops

together, and then all of a
sudden he's like, oh my God,

NFTs guys.

It was like he heard of it and
he was just like emergency

meeting and like he just he's
very easy, highly motivates

people.

He just spun our minds right
away and like, oh my God, do you

guys need to learn about this?

Go look it up, Go do this, Go
get some of the you know.

Like he just, you know, had
meetings with us and like really

quickly he onboarded us like
that, Like that's amazing, About

a hundred of us, I guess.

And the reason why is because
he had this people project that

he wanted to do.

So he told some of people
people's, what are they called?

Dailies was about to draw every
day, every day was about to go

on auction and he says so we're
going to ride this people wave.

He said because he does this
kind of things, right, he knows

how to ride momentum and build
off of it, right.

So he's like we're going to do
we're going to take this

portrait of people and you're
all going to make your version

of it.

We're going to make a hundred
versions of this portrait of

people.

We're going to sell them on
open C, like I don't know what.

Any of this was right.

So you know, make your file,
submit it.

We're going to put them all on
there.

There's going to be additions
of a hundred of all of them.

And you know I'm like what,
what, what, what, what?

So, anyway, I made this people
thing, I took the thing and I

submitted it.

You know he's telling us about
I had to load them all manually,

manually.

I'm still like what?

Okay, whatever you know.

And then they like sell, like
almost like, all of them sold

the day that they dropped.

And I was like what?

And he was like okay,
everybody's going to get their

ETH transfer now.

And I was like what?

I played around with this photo
for like half an hour in

Photoshop and, you know, made
like half an ETH or something

and I was like, wow, so that
piqued my interest, clearly.

And yeah, deep dive, he got us
on Clubhouse.

He's like here's all your
Clubhouse invites.

He got us set out.

Thank you, maddie Moe.

If you ever watched this, I've
thanked him before.

I would never gotten into any
of this if it wasn't for him.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like
there's always that some, that

there's that some, that some
person or that one person that

just finds it and they just like
cause?

I'll tell you, when I first
found it, I had a similar

reaction to him.

Now that you described that.

It was like this, it was like
that iPhone moment, except I was

like 15, it was like 15 years
later and I'm like holy shit,

this is this, this is something.

I don't know what this is, but
this is something.

Speaker 2: I know right and it's
yeah.

Since that moment I've just
been like you know, and it's

been like right, we're on this
like crazy roller coaster,

ferris wheel, I don't know.

It's still like so much has
happened since last year and

still so much yet to happen.

Speaker 1: I feel like
especially so if you were in

Clubhouse that means you've been
here over a year, and I feel

like anyone who can survive a
year in this space is like.

I feel like you've earned your
stripes at this point, Cause, oh

yeah, I'm trying to.

It's just like throw a dart at
a day, throw a dart at an hour

in that day, and you can laugh.

It was hard to process.

Speaker 2: You just can't
believe it.

Some days You'd like what, yeah
, what.

Speaker 1: Yes, yeah.

So.

So now that, like you know so I
don't know if you've had this

experience, but now that things
are kind of like cooling down,

now that it's like we've gone
through that just madness phase

Cause I don't know about you,
that's all I've known.

I came out of the tail end of
the bear market last year, so

all like I had two months of
like peace and quiet.

Before then things just like
went fucking bananas, like no

pun intended, like with just
everything just went nuts.

And so I'm actually like
relieved Are you fine?

Like what are you kind of doing
in this town time?

Like how has that affected your
art?

What are you kind of doing
right now as this thing happens?

Speaker 2: So, yeah, I feel
relieved too and I actually keep

checking my calendar and
thinking, like, am I missing

something?

Like I want as busy as I was.

You know, I don't know.

And it's good, it's been a
breather, because one of the

things I talked to a lot of
artists about that has been a

struggle is that is so consuming
that I'm not making as much, or

, like that is clear, is day
right before NFTs because of

COVID.

You know, I was home.

I have my studio here at home
that I'm in right now and I was

making so much art.

I never made so much art.

I made so much art when COVID
started like a collage of day,

easily, easily, like two a day
three a day, some days like

churning them out, loving it,
loving it, loving it, which is

good, because I had a lot of
work when I joined this space.

That was new, because I didn't
want to just start minting old

stuff.

I wanted it to be relatively,
like you know, recent yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But it's come to a
halt.

I'm not going to lie.

I have not created nearly as
much since this all started.

Speaker 1: Got it.

Yeah, yeah, I've got to yeah, I
mean yeah, and but the.

I think it's also a good period
of time to just like reflect on

, like what happened, like what,
what, what.

What good decisions did you
make last year, what bad

decisions you make last year,
and like reevaluate, because,

like what's really strange about
this is that I didn't give two

shits about finance or the
markets or anything before I.

Nfts have literally onboarded
me to like that curiosity, and

so I've like tried to like at
moments I'm like okay, cool,

this is next, because I'm not
going to reflect in a bull

market, like I'm just going to
execute in a bull market.

I'm just going to like try to
do as much as I can.

Yeah, I've found myself because
, like, what's really

interesting is that you know
we're going to.

You know I saw generative art,
especially like in the art block

space, take off a lot and I
didn't understand why, like I

understood bits.

All I saw was that people were
just like you know, fidenzas was

one of those diamonds that came
out of that.

That came out of that, that
that just madness squiggles and

I didn't like I thought it was
cool, but I didn't understand

the like the history behind
generative art, or like why it

really meant something, and
that's actually what I'm taking

my personal time now to go do.

Is that, like, okay, now that
this whole thing has happened,

what, like?

Why is generative art so
valuable?

Like, that's just something I
miss out completely on, you know

, and so it's been fun to learn
about that, because I'm starting

to see why it's valuable and
why there's so much hyper on it

and why people are spending so
much money on it, you know.

Speaker 2: I think that's good,
good use of your time, because

I'm actually.

It's another curiosity of mine
too.

Yeah, I think it's fascinating.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And it's.

It's weird because I and maybe
what your opinion on this?

Like when I first did the
people thing with the group, I I

kind of thought that was maybe
the end, because I was like,

well, what am I going to do now?

I'm going to start doing
digital art.

Like we're going to drop
collage.

I love that digitally native
art has finally had a place to

like shine and make a living.

Because I mean I was being
digitally native art.

You know I switched to analog
and I wouldn't go back for this

space.

I mean I love this too much.

But you know, generative art
and digitally native art, like I

always kind of thought, well,
that's what belongs here.

And traditional art like
painting and collage and

sculpture, like I don't know if
it really has a place here.

Now I'm finding it does,
because I'm seeing, you know,

painting and collage and
sculpture sell.

But I'm still like trying to
find a way that to justify

myself that it has kind of real
purpose here.

Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: Yeah, it does.

And so I'll like, I'll, I'll
just share, I'll, I'll answer

that question or I'll.

I'll give you my thoughts and
like what comes to mind when I

say that, because when I started
doing this podcast, nobody was

really doing what I was doing
and I felt very similar, like

where I was like out of place,
where it's like I'm not like

giving value because I'm not,
I'm not giving people, like

pumping people's bags, or like
I'm not interviewing the next

project.

I'm not like, I'm not a finance
guy.

I don't like I don't know how
to predict markets.

I don't fucking know anything
about that.

I don't, I don't really care
about that.

I'm starting to care about it,
but I don't care enough about it

to create a bunch of content
around it because I don't know

shit around this.

Yeah, and so that was my when I
first came here.

I'll tell you like I feel like
I had everything stacked against

me.

It turns out I I'm learning now
, after a year of doing this,

that I didn't actually have
everything in my favor, but when

I first came here, I was
interviewing people in eSports.

I was.

That was like my thing before
this.

So I've been podcasting for
about a year.

I had.

As I told you earlier, offline I
was, I was massively in debt

from my, from my, you know, debt
to income ratio was just not in

my favor.

So I I didn't barely know what
Ethereum was, I didn't know.

But I had this level of
excitement.

I was like, okay, how do I, how
do I like, what do I do here?

You know, like I can't, I can't
be a whale, like I'm not like a

market analyst, you know.

And so I'm like what the fuck
is my purpose here?

You know, I was struggling with
that for a long time.

You know, I said I can barely
afford anything and so how am I

going to support these people
that want to support them?

And this just came out of
nowhere.

I said, you know what, I'm
going to take the same approach

to podcasting with with eSports
to Web.

I'm going to take this over to
Web three.

I'm just going to shoot some
random people a DM and I'll tell

you I have had more people come
on to my podcast.

It was about a 70 to 80% like
just answer rate in general,

which is unheard of.

Like I was lucky to get 20% out
of all the messages, out of all

the emails, and I never craft.

There's no copy pasta with what
I do, so it's all.

I try to make it personal.

There's parts of it that I run
a theme, but it's it's personal

to each person because I
genuinely want them to be on

here.

And I thought I was wrong for
doing that Like.

You know what I mean, because
it wasn't, it wasn't low effort,

it was, it was high effort and
I was putting a lot into it.

And so it turns out that
different is actually really

good, like cause.

That's what actually made you
stand out to me is that you like

there's you look at the story
of photography, you know, like,

look at the story of like that,
if you, especially with the, you

know with people like Kath and
John Noth and Ben Strauss and

Ravi and and Dave and all these
people that I mean they were

flat out told by by high end
collectors that photography

didn't have a place and they
just decided that it did.

You know what I mean.

Yeah, and I say all that and I
ramble all of that together to

like make a point where it's
like I don't think it really

matters what some other people
think.

I mean I've seen you grow since
, like the last time or since

the first time I saw you going
from like I don't have a place

here, like I don't know if
anyone's gonna like this.

Now You're on super rare and
there's like people you know,

like there's, you know, like
there's like an owner of your

piece I'm super rare and there's
two more from up for meant and

like yeah, that's insane.

So I think you actually have
all the justification, but I

think one thing that I'll say is
that being being unique is like

a very lonely road and it can
feel very much like I don't have

a place here, right?

So I Think my definition of art
has drastically changed since

I've come here.

I've.

I used to think art was
literally just impressionist

paintings and you know, like,
you know, just literally, you

know some abstract stuff, some
of the, even though I didn't

really fully feel it it was.

That was what art was to me and
I I gotta get a lot of credit to

D's For not all firm, for like
putting a lot of those

photographers on on the stage,
because that changed my view of

photography being accepted as
art.

I took photography for granted,
like I, we were so used to just

like seeing it online and
hanging in walls and you don't

know what half of those people
went through to get that, to get

that shot.

And so I said this deserves to
like be here.

I mean, even the last Artisai
like the next episode I'm

releasing as we're recording
this is Anna Maria.

You know she's a.

She's a poet.

You know that's not really
making huge waves, but she's

making huge waves and she's
onboarding poets and since, like

, why can't it have a spot?

You know, if you think that
your stuff deserves to be in a

museum, and you're gonna do
everything you can to make sure

that that happens, that's my
take on that, you know is a

point.

Speaker 2: I like it.

I like, I like your take on it.

Yeah.

Yeah, the photography story is
interesting, because I was there

, you know, and they really
thought there was no place and

and then thinking they had no
place actually made me even more

think I had no place.

Speaker 1: Oh, sure you know
they're not gonna make anyone.

Speaker 2: I'm gonna make it and
I have a lot of photography

friends, so it's been nice to to
see it like finally, you know,

really take off and collage as
well.

Like I've, you know, really
banded together with some of the

collage artists in the space
and we applied for in the space

race, where we're doing really
well or Number four now.

I'm so excited, yeah, you know.

So we're Kind of trying to do
the same thing with Tarv.

Is they're doing?

Just help lift each other up
and bring more eyes to to

collage in general.

Speaker 1: I mean, and a one
thing one photographer that I

learned a lot from that I
interviewed was Christopher Shin

.

I'm not sure if you know he
does the the byway of water.

Yeah, like he is one of the
people.

Yeah, he single-handedly
changed my mind about like about

that, because when I saw that
those Photographs, that didn't

really mean a whole lot to me,
but like he is so bullish on

himself and like that was I'm
like man he made me want to be a

byway water holder.

Like that is Impressive, you
know, yeah.

So, yeah, I gotta give credit
where credit suit, cuz, like he

changed my percept perception
completely on that.

Yeah, I didn't think I would be
as hooked by that collection as

I as I am now.

So I mean, to your point, if
you feel it deserves, deserves

to be here than it does.

But furthermore, to like go on a
deeper level, like I've I've

questioned, you know, even,
especially because, like I've

come out, I'm so new to this
Like what if NFTs go away?

Or what if this goes away?

Is this like a viable thing?

And I said, like when I first
started building my conviction,

I said this there's no way that,
like the universe that I rely

upon or the Connection that I
have with something greater than

myself, wants me to be unhappy,
and if this is something that

makes me this happy, there's no
way that this is going away.

Like there's no, like I belong
here.

This is what I'm supposed to be
doing, because this feels like

an opportunity of an actual
lifetime, and yeah like if I

have that feeling, then it's
real yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true
and you know, I felt this way

actually when Instagram first
started, because I joined like

right after Instagram started
and there was like Such a small,

intimate artist community.

It was going downtown and
meeting up with other

Instagramers, Photographing and
going to Insta meets and it was

so amazing in it.

Yeah, I was spending a ton of
time on Instagram.

I was had to post twice a day.

You know Like it was just oh and
it literally got to the point

where my husband was like You're
spending a lot of time on your

phone and I'm like it's where we
are and it's so exciting.

You're gonna finally getting out
of some work and I'm getting

all these connections, you know.

You know, because artists tend
to work in little like silos and

we're, you know, really kind of
cut off from other artists.

And Sorry, I still want to say
yeah, but this reminds me of

that, and I remember, when
Instagram started to, I thought,

oh, like, how long is this
gonna last, though, like you

just know, things like this
don't last forever, you know,

but god, a good five years.

I was in the thick of it, like
that's a good long chunk of my

life that I was Pretty
passionate about all things

Instagram and yeah.

So this feels the same way and
it's the same kind of excitement

of man.

There's so many artists and
there's so many good people love

art and want to talk about art
and like it's just yeah, you

can't beat it.

Speaker 1: So I think you have
your answer.

I think you answered it for
yourself right there because you

were.

The theme I noticed with a lot
of people that are that are like

really carving out a name for
themselves here Is that they

were early to Instagram, like
that is the common theme that

I'm noticing here.

Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2: But I don't think you
had to be early to Instagram,

no, but, um, yeah, there is,
there is a lot of that there and

it and like like old vet, um,
he invited me on to foundation.

Like he was, uh, him and I have
been friends on Instagram for

forever.

Like, um, meet held, you know,
meet Hillsworth.

Speaker 1: I do, I do, yep.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, him and
I have been friends forever.

We're gonna we're gonna do a
collab.

I'm so excited, um, yes, but
yeah, it's just.

It was funny, like because the
Instagram life did kind of die

out and then it was like, oh my
gosh, here's all my Instagram

friends.

That's right, yeah, I mean yeah
, by all means.

Speaker 1: I don't want to say
it's a work, a prerequisite, but

it's just like it helps, it
helps right, it helps some

people yeah.

And something that I think,
something that I really learned,

is that I felt like when I,
when I entered into my creative

journey, it was at the, the kind
of like the apex or the peak,

or just like the top of of web 2
, and there was just there was

just a slice of the pie, was
like this, this big, and it was

getting thinner and thinner each
day.

I just remember thinking I'm
like I don't.

I know what to do to succeed
here, but I'm not willing to do

it Like I like I'm not willing
to sacrifice who I am and my

morals and my judgment.

I'm not willing to do that.

I'm not willing to like take
stances I don't believe in, I'm

not willing to do things Just
because other people think it's

you know what's supposed to be
done.

Like I don't, I don't want to
do that, and so I just remember

thinking to myself I'm like this
is, this is helpless, you know?

Um, yeah, and that's.

I think really what?

What happened here is that what
I'm learning is that once this

dies out, if this dies out, if a
phase of this dies out, like,

there's always going to be that
pocket of people that are like

seeking something different, you
know.

Speaker 2: I know.

But you know we're lucky that
we are here early, because I am,

you know, I don't think it's
going to die out.

It's just going to get bigger
and bigger and right.

You know, like you said, with
with social media, that pie was

so thin.

Now I feel very fortunate,
lucky that that we're here early

.

We can kind of, you know, claim
that a little bit of pie before

it gets really small.

Speaker 1: Right and it's uh,
it's documented too Like it's

not.

You can't, you don't just get
to say you're early, like it's

um yeah.

Exactly, it's there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which
same with instagram, right?

This is like keep talking about
all my students, stop deleting

your photos.

I'm like you don't understand.

It's a timestamp, it's a.

It's a you can say like look, I
was doing this five years ago.

I'm not if you delete
everything, but that's I mean

low key.

Speaker 1: when I look at any
artists on like a project or

anything like that, that's one
of the phrases and I'll go to,

I'll, I'll go, I'll see how far
back their instagram feed goes,

and that's like one of the
things that I look for is like

how long have they been creating
for?

Do they?

Is this the same thing they've
been creating?

I mean, it doesn't have to be,
but it's like, essentially, have

they been creating?

You know, for a long time?

Speaker 2: I agree, yeah, I get
that and I Look for the same

things from the art of cycle I'm
from too like Not that there's

anything wrong with.

Hey, I just started doing art
and I'm self taught.

Great, if I like your art,
awesome, like that's an

interesting story too that you.

You know you're just getting
started, but, um, yeah, you know

you gotta do your research for
sure.

Speaker 1: When it comes to one
of ones, yeah, I think it's all

of like what you're, yeah, it's
like what you're looking for.

It's like if the price is
really high, then it's like,

okay, then it requires more,
because if I'm gonna spend,

because even they, it's like you
know, collectors have to spend

a lot of money on this and you
know, just depending on what

people's Financial interests are
or like what they're looking to

get out of it, that all there's
so many things that are in play

when it comes to that.

But, yeah, I'm a huge fan.

I actually have a decent little
Tezos collection going on too.

Um, I'm a big fan of the.

Speaker 2: Tezos art.

Yeah, so much better Tezos.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I need to.

Speaker 2: I need to get a test
wallet, I think.

Speaker 1: You do, and it's
what's really it's very

interesting is that it's it's
not like the, just because the

coin's lower, the quality's
lower, like there is some like

really good there.

There is some really good art
that I've gotten on Tezos Um.

Speaker 2: I see it and I know I
know some specific artists who

are on Tezos who I want to
collect.

So, yep, yep, I know it.

Speaker 1: Maybe, so, maybe so.

So one thing I want to do here
is go over one of your super

rare pieces, one of the ones
that recently sold.

Um called all of my love.

I hope you don't mind if I
share the screen here.

Speaker 2: Yeah, sure sweet.

Speaker 1: Oh, I had this pulled
up um it's owned by Pam daddy.

Speaker 2: Yes, name yeah.

Speaker 1: Okay, let me share
that.

Speaker 2: Really nice guy.

I haven't talked with him, but
I've heard him talk on spaces

and I've heard him talk about um
.

You know a guy who's really
about fairness in the world and

stuff.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that and
it does he.

Does he collect a lot of Like
work similar to that, or is it

that's like the theme of what he
collects?

Speaker 2: um, he collects a lot
of work but like I mean, I've

only kind of seen what he has on
a super rare.

He seems to kind of like, um,
art by women and or that has a

bit of a feminine touch to it.

Speaker 1: I like that.

So where?

Yeah, so, like I guess, taught
me through this because, like

this is super interesting.

Where did, where did this come
from?

Speaker 2: Okay, um, what do you
mean?

Speaker 1: Like the yeah, so
it's like, I guess, like the

inspiration behind it, like what
like what was the, what was the

goal that you were trying to
achieve here, like, what did you

want to portray?

Kind of like just the creative
process on a high level.

Speaker 2: All right.

So at the time I was working
kind of on another series that I

called like good housekeeping,
and it was a lot of like nudes,

uh, mixed in with like
houseplants.

Um, I had just acquired some
kind of old vintage houseplant

books that I really liked.

I love houseplants.

I have a ton, um mostly that I
inherited from my grandmother,

um, during quarantine I I bought
more.

I bought more from kajiji Um
you know, separated ones.

I had like just you know they,
they doubled Um, there was a lot

of houseplants, and so then I
started kind of using

houseplants and nudes, and good
housekeeping was the, the title

that I was like working in in my
head.

And I like that theme because
it's like it's kind of about

Domestication and it's it's a
bit of that old world like you

know, a good wife who's, like
you know, making sure the house

is nice and you know there's
flowers in the vase and

everything looks pretty.

And I mean, even when I first
got together, I remember, with

my husband, we were living in an
apartment and he was, you know,

he would even say, like you
know, things just look so much

nicer when you're here.

Like you just, you know, make
things look pretty and um, you

know, I know I don't know where
these expect.

You know they're old
expectations but right, handed

down and handed down and um.

So I was doing that.

And then the way that the first
kind of one from this series

happened was a little bit by
Accident, where there was just

kind of pieces on my desk and
then I just put them together

and I was like, oh, the you know
the vase kind of looks like her

butt, it has like the same
curve as her butt and Um, when I

really when at first, when I
put them together, was actually

just a hard Um line between them
, they didn't, it didn't have

like this one where some of the
flowers kind of go over onto her

side and that one branch goes
over onto her side.

I was always just matching them
up really hard edged but

looking for a nice connection
where, uh, the vase of flowers

somehow, you know, completed the
, the female body, um, yeah, and

then it just evolves into kind
of being not so hard of an edge

and playing around again with,
uh, you know the vase, um

playing as part of her body.

Speaker 1: I love that.

That's really cool.

I I would have not.

I like hearing.

I like hearing how people get
to certain results.

You know because, like I would
have had you know the, the, how,

like the, the shape of that
aligned, aligned with, like

where her butt supposed, like
what you know, like aligned with

her butt, like that's like a
really cool.

Maybe you did there.

And I noticed like even the
back, like even the way with the

angle that she's like hunched
over, like it's cool how it

looks, like that there's like a
little bit of a support system

with that vine going around when
the back is, and it lines up

perfectly with that.

And when it comes to, so this
was like before you made it

digital, I guess this is
actually something I've been

really curious about.

Is you do the, you do the
collage art, like, how do you

digitize it?

Like, how do you like so this
is all done and then it's just

like a picture of it or like how
do you?

I scan, scan it, okay, and are
these like popping out or they?

Is it all like flat or is it
how to?

I know, that's just a curious
part of me.

I always was like wondering
about.

Speaker 2: Um, so it is.

It is flat, it's interesting,
like okay.

So when it first came to the
space, I digitized, okay, I

scanned my original collages
Slumber.

You know I'm trying to see
there's one close by that.

There is a similar, quite big
actually.

Here's one Ah, okay so I mean
it's you know on paper, but then

I scan it.

I have a flatbed scanner here
okay and my original collages,

though, because I didn't think
it was enough just to scan a

collage, and so that's why I'm
let me first work I animated, I

you know then put into our after
effects, and played around with

, with animating it.

But when I got into super, in
this series this you don't bring

me flowers series is to me, my
best work in the last few years.

It's almost like deep meaning,
personal, I also think,

aesthetically beautiful.

I mean I'm just really proud of
it, and so I didn't know what I

was gonna do, that when I got
into super rare I was like, oh

my gosh, this is, this is a
place for it, because I mean I

wanted to exhibit it somewhere
here and I still do hope to

exhibit the series here
somewhere one day.

But yeah, and talking to other
artists, they're like, no, still

is enough, because I was always
like stills, not enough people.

You know one animated and you
know then I heard from actually

some of my collectors who are
like I wish it wasn't animated,

I wish you did more stills.

But I still have other
collectors who are like I wish

you animated these pieces on
super rare.

So make everybody happy.

Speaker 1: No, you can't.

And that brings up an
interesting point like how is,

like, the relationship between
you and your collectors change

from like web two to web three?

Has there been any difference?

Has there been any things that
like are a lot different?

Speaker 2: Then they were back
huge difference, people who

collected my physicals.

I don't hear from them very
often.

There's like a few repeat
customers who be like you know

they'll email me again and say,
hey, you know if you got any new

work coming out.

But I, that's very few.

I would say maybe two or three
people who repeat collect

physical work from me.

But you know, here it's yes,
you don't really have much of a

relationship with them at all,
to be honest.

Speaker 1: Hmm, interesting.

Speaker 2: I do.

You know I'm damning and
talking, and Talking not just

about our, but just yeah, friend
, developing friendships, it's

really nice.

Speaker 1: That's really, that's
really cool and I, I always

like asking that question
because it's you know, because

I'm not an artist myself and so
I am always very curious to see.

But, like I, when you say that,
it makes sense to me, like it

makes complete sense, even
though I don't have like direct

experience with it, like people
here especially I don't know if

it's just for early or whatever
the case may be like people seem

so much more willing to like
Whether it's feedback or whether

it's building a relationship or
whether it's like it people

just feel so much more open.

It could just be also the day
and age that we're in and

there's a lot of different
things that are at play.

But I find that relationship so
fascinating and to me it's

actually Really special that a
lot of people that I've had on

have like super, like intimate
relation not not like in that

way, but like you know what I
mean like super personal

relationships With the people
that buy their work and that

they not they're not just like a
single buyer, that they want to

buy more.

I think it's amazing.

I did.

Speaker 2: And from what I feel
from the collections, I do have

relationships.

They genuinely Curious and
enjoy kind of, you know, having

a relationship with the artist
as well.

So yeah, yeah just the
narrative.

They're both, yeah, both
narrative, I think there's some,

some collectors you don't and
some artists who don't, and you

know they just more quiet and
whatever that you can almost do

whatever you want.

You know there's all kinds of
ways to be here.

I think some people feel a lot
of pressure To be always maybe

talking on Twitter spaces, but
it's like you don't have to

communicate your message.

That way you could just tweet
really effectively and get

engaged in a lot of like A one
on one conversations or, you

know, put up really interesting
threads and engage in

conversations that way.

So I don't know, I'm kind of
I'm kind of going on to my

teacher tangent now, because
they do do a lot of onboarding

in my, in my spaces and stuff
helping out new people, and

that's the one comment I get the
most is.

Speaker 1: I don't want to talk
in Twitter spaces.

I don't want to talk in Twitter
.

Talk to me yeah.

That was yo.

I actually kind of relate to
that a little bit is that that

was one of the reasons why I
enjoyed podcasting so much.

I don't mind doing spaces
unless it's hosted by someone

else.

I don't mind being a co host, I
don't mind doing that.

But I found it here.

It's like the, the, the amount
of pressure from a live audience

changes the conversation, and I
mean it there, not to say it's

bad, like I.

That's how I learned about.

All this is through clubhouse
and Twitter spaces and all that.

I'm not saying that it's that
it's wrong, but I think,

especially during a bullet like
it, but it does change some of

the authenticity of the message
is being portrayed, and so

that's why I enjoyed doing this
because, like for me, I learned

that I didn't like the live
audience as much.

From streaming on Twitch.

I said I don't, I don't really
like doing this, I'd rather just

like kind of vibe with like one
person or two people at the

most Super rare team was the
exception, but you know that

it's.

I just like to hang out in
small, intimate environments,

which is what I've always like
before this space anyway.

So it actually aligns directly
with the ethos.

So it's cool though I mean, and
you get to hear like, but

spaces are very valuable because
I've gotten to hear a lot about

artists like their, their
perspective and how they draw

and how they like, how their
mind works, and I think which is

just an incredibly fascinating
topic.

Speaker 2: I still encourage all
artists to try, you know, to

continue to try.

I do think it's important.

Yeah, so it's just how a lot of
people are discovered, and I

mean, I know for me myself, a
lot of my sales came almost

right after I talked, talked in
the space.

So it's right, I'll tell people
to try.

Yeah, hello, yeah, well, you
know it's out there, now too

it's.

You've got to also tell the new
people the spaces to avoid.

Speaker 1: Mm.

Hmm, yeah, I was just gonna.

I was just gonna talk about I'm
glad you said that because it's

like it's easy for me and you,
because we we've been around and

we came in and we were early,
there wasn't as many people, and

so that's the challenge that I
have is that it's like okay,

when you onboard people take,
okay, you know, make a metamask,

do this, join these spaces, but
it's like there's a lot of,

there's a lot of just bullshit
Right now and it's it's hard

like what I.

I guess my thing is I try to
tell people to take their time.

I actually listen to an
interview with Keith Grossman,

president of time, and in one
thing, I listen to podcasts with

him and he was like the best
thing, that one of the coolest

things I heard.

This is actually like way after
I was just deep in and I was

already participating here he
said for new people like put in,

put in $20 into Coinbase, just
Coinbase, not even a metamask

wallet, just Coinbase by $20 of
Ethereum and just watch it,

watch it go to $26, watch it go
to $12, like, watch it go back

to $32.

You know he's like but don't do
anything with it.

You know, I know we I know we
were talking about and then I

talked about Coinbase a little
bit.

Here I'm going off on a tangent
myself, but I think that love

tangents, that's right, it's
what makes it fun, so but I

think that's really cool like it
because it helps with a lot of

the emotional curve and a lot of
the emotions that come in here

is that If you believe in it,
you'll already see what's going

to happen with a small amount of
money and just know that that's

going to happen On just a
bigger scale if you do believe

in it.

But I mean, like what I also
think to more of your point here

, or what you to more of your
topic, was that, like I didn't

know I was like I enjoy
collecting digital art till I

found this like what?

Like once digital art became
like ownable, like improvable,

and I could have a digital proof
of authenticity that I own

something like that and call it.

I'm living in an apartment.

I just didn't have room for
more physical art, but you know

I'm not going to be able to do
that.

I can collect and I can own
this and I didn't really like

there's this whole lid that got
popped off of.

Like I didn't really know that
I need that.

I wanted to do this until I
started talking to people who

were doing it, so I guess it
like piggyback off.

Your point is that like, like,
don't be afraid to like, like,

show your homework when you have
the opportunity because, like,

there's people there, there is
an audience for everybody.

That's what I've learned here.

Speaker 2: Definitely definitely
, totally true.

And I see, like artists, you
know, get frustrated when they

haven't had sales for a while,
which is frustrating because

it's hard, because it's so
public and you see everybody

else making sales and it seems
like everybody's making sales is

not everybody, it's just.

You know, you heard three or
four people that day and it

feels like everybody.

But you have to knock it down
on yourself.

Like you have to remember to
believe in your art.

I've had to kind of talk myself
and a lot of friends, like

Chris is like, oh, just, you
know this, the space just

doesn't like my style and I'm
like, no, no, that's not it.

You just you know there's
somebody for everybody and I

truly believe that there is a,
there's a collector for every

type of art out there.

And you know, for most part, if
you're here, you know you're

here because you know you've
already been selling prints and

you're already been doing well
on Instagram and you've already

been.

So don't forget that, like
you've already established

yourself as an artist.

Speaker 1: Reminding myself to
yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, you have a great like.

You have a great point there,
yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So yeah, I'm just really
excited that I have kind of new

fans of my art.

You know I was doing fairly
well already having shows and

selling prints and selling the
physicals and my websites.

You know did really well
through COVID.

I'm just super excited to have
like a new audience, like new,

new fans of my art, new people
who are going to my website, new

people who are coming to my
shows in Toronto.

It's just amazing, you know.

It's just helped grow my
audience.

Speaker 1: Yeah and no, and it's
it's.

It's the key word there and
you're in your and your talk.

There was new, you know, and so
I want to start looking forward

into you know where you see it
like.

Not necessarily where the space
is going, because no one, no

one really knows, but where
would you like, where do you

want to see this go?

Like what is one of your
biggest goals?

Like like from your art, like
what's like one of those, like

like super audacious, like
things that you want to do.

Speaker 2: Show it to the beast,
love it.

Yeah, I would be amazing.

Yeah, I think I'd be happy with
that.

Or be on the cover of Time
Magazine.

Do you know anybody?

Speaker 1: Maybe I may know that
I may know someone yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, now I'd love to
just I would love to to see

that.

I think that's probably a
little too ambitious, though,

but who knows?

Speaker 1: So I'm gonna stop you
right there.

So you know my, I'll tell you
mine, I'll tell you mine, and

I'm sure it'll have a
correlation.

But it's like the whole thing
that started this journey, like

that I'm on now is that I want
to run and operate my own

eSports organization, like video
game sports, and that, like

when I had that goal so, mind
you, I was it was 2017 when I,

when I embarked on this just
creative journey, in general, I

had never been to one eSports
event.

I knew nobody in the industry.

I had never, I had never
participated in any of the old

forums and communities when it
was being built.

I just I remember thinking to
myself I'm like, ok, well, you

don't know what, you don't know
any of this, you know nobody,

you've never done anything.

So how are you gonna do this?

And then I started like just, I
just started working backwards,

like I started saying like, ok,
ok, I can buy a computer, I can

broadcast on Twitch and there's
an event next month, you know I

can and I can start there.

But you know, you go, we go
through these phases and like I

don't think if I had that super
like in my eyes, like Not

necessarily unattainable, but
just a ridiculous goal to go

after, I would have never gotten
here.

And I was actually pondering
that thought, you know, on my

way back home from taking the
dog to the vet today, was that

like, if I didn't have, if I
didn't have a super audacious

goal, then like I don't know
what my limits actually are, if

I don't set a super, just like
way out there thing, you know,

who knows, you may get featured,
so the bees, you may not, but

like I guarantee you by having
that you're going to push it

farther than you would have if
you didn't have that goal, if

you didn't believe that.

That's very true, you know.

So I'm of that school of
thought Of yeah, yeah, I know

I'm going to keep my goals
really big and I think it's like

at my age to like I have so
many goals in my 20s that I've

achieved a lot of them.

Speaker 2: and it's funny when
you get.

You know at my age you need to
reset, you need to make new

goals right, like and there's
really no reason for those goals

to be small at this point,
because you're kind of at a

point where you have nothing to
lose.

You know like, I've got my
career and kids are healthy and

happy and my husband's healthy
and happy and you know my art

making this going awesome, like
pets are awesome.

So I know I'm going to really
push the envelope to to me and I

am.

I mean, I'm here, I'm working
my butt off right and I could

just, you know, teaching.

I could do that blindfolded at
this point pretty much, and I

could just be.

But I'm so highly motivated to
Freaking do something with this,

this NFT, and I mean I'm
already doing something, but I

want to do more and I don't know
what.

I have a lot of exciting ideas,
but I want to do more, more,

more, more, more, more, more,
more.

Speaker 1: So let's tell me what
is one of those more like.

What is it?

What is the one thing?

Was the one thing you really
want to do?

Speaker 2: I really want to do.

I don't know if I can tell you
everything.

Speaker 1: Okay, okay, no, not
everything.

Speaker 2: It's a little bit
more secret, but I want to kind

of start like some education for
NFTs.

Like I love teaching, I love
teenagers, I love teaching high

school, I want to get them
involved somehow.

I want to create events around
teenagers and NFTs and I'm

working on it.

Speaker 1: I couldn't think.

So here's the one thing that's
a broad topic that needs to be

done.

That's a problem that needs to
be solved, and I'll tell you

from what I know about you and
what I know about your

background only you can teach it
the way you need to and you're

going to have a big impact on
onboarding people the way no one

else You're going to be able to
impact people that I'm not

going to be able to impact based
on your experience and vice

versa.

So I'm a big believer in that.

So I actually got me really
excited.

So, when you talk to your art
students about that, what is the

general take on all this stuff?

Right?

Speaker 2: now.

So it's funny.

There's a few students who know
about NFTs.

There's a few who even have
wallets and have started buying

small amounts.

Most of them don't know
anything, but when I tell them

they're quite excited.

But some of them have heard
from parents and family that

it's a Ponzi scheme, A scam.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: It's a scam and they
don't want to hear about it.

Basically I do.

I think what a lot of people
are doing right now that I hear

in the space is kind of like you
tell people you're into it and

you know about it and if you're
curious and you want to know

more, then come talk to me.

And I've had some students who
then now hang back on their

lunch and, like you know, miss
can we talk?

More about it.

So and then I do.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I could not deliver
it as an actual lesson, I would

say.

Yet because of those parents
who are like it's a scam, they

would probably be mad that I
took class time to talk about it

.

Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit.

Yeah, I didn't even think about
that, because I look at this as

like the youth probably really
grasps onto this.

They do.

Yeah, I mean because I even had
to do some research as a gamer

myself.

Like you know, there's a
generation before me and I feel

like I'm right.

I had just passed a generation
where I really care, like that

really cares about this, but
like Minecraft and Roblox and

like all these like digital
worlds that they're already

spending time, and I'm like when
I actually went back and like

started looking at streams and
like I'm like, oh my God, this

is a no brainer, like this is
just like a no brainer.

So what I didn't factor in was
the parents that are telling

their kids that it's a scam or a
.

Ponzi scheme yeah.

Speaker 2: Interesting, yeah,
yeah.

And then there's just some
parents, you know, who don't

want their kids on technology
very much and things like that,

so it doesn't matter what
they're doing on there, yeah, so

, but I think soon I mean I'd
like I honestly like to do a

like a whole little unit on it
with my classes to help them.

Certainly some of them could
use it.

I teach it a really like mixed
school.

The neighborhood I live in is a
real mix of, like, affluence

and poverty.

It's interesting, yeah, so it's
definitely.

You see the struggle there
because of you know, and you

really want to help the students
who aren't coming from the

affluent rooms.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a whole
different paradigm shift, just a

lot of different.

Like, yeah, that's an
interesting mix.

You have your work cut out for
you.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm excited
, you know.

I mean, like I said at the
beginning, I think it's like at

the beginning and then to I love
teaching, I love the teenagers.

I mean that's all you have to
like.

It is like for high school.

As long as you like the
teenagers, you're going to be

fine.

The curriculum really doesn't
matter.

You're teaching them social
skills and you know you're

teaching them to think and just
be.

You know, I don't know valuable
members of society because

they're apathetic and caring and
all those things.

But I don't want to stop that.

If I do continue down this path
of NFTs and DeFi, I don't want

to kind of stop my teaching.

So I hope that I can maybe kind
of transfer it to do some kind

of teaching here in this space,
of course while still being an

artist.

They always still want to be an
artist, but I get bored doing

the same thing, like I don't
think I could just be an artist

ever actually.

I like to just be involved in
other things, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: There's actually a
previous guy I had on, tim

Riopel, very similar situation
where he teach, he's a digital

artist or like a gift artist,
has like a lot of animated stuff

and he, you know, he teaches.

It's very similar, like the
parallel, like the stories that

you said, like there's a few
people that are interested,

there's a few people that are,
oh, he's at university.

So it's a little bit different
of a like they're not as much

reliant upon their parents, but
same kind of concept though,

Like it's the same, the same
like result is that it's

generally a mixed bag.

And one thing I thought about
when you said that you said

there's always a few people that
hang around, like when my mom

you know I don't do they do with
, like they did this thing

called junior achievement when I
was, when I was in school and

you know my mom was really big
in that and she would come in

and she would teach geology and
she would.

She was a geologist at heart,
worked, worked for the oil field

and you know, but she was like
Kyle.

I don't do that for the masses,
I do that for the one to two

kids that are always going to
hang back and ask questions.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: She's like that's the
reason I do.

She's like 90% of anything you
teach is not going to, is not

going to be received.

Yeah, like they're just not
going to get it and whether it's

they just don't care, it's just
not time, or there's all these

different things that say that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So it's a big relief as a
teacher, because teachers I see

young teachers they get so
concerned about delivering all

the curriculum and making sure
they cover all the units and

it's like they're going to
forget 99% of what you teach

them.

It's about learning to learn
and learning to whatever.

And if they're going to go on
in geography or math or art or

English, whatever it is that you
teach them, they'll keep

practicing it and they'll
they'll learn it more and

they'll get there.

Like, don't worry about the
curriculum, worry more about you

know.

Do they know how to learn?

Do they know how to organize?

Do they know how to present?

Do group work?

Talk to a teacher, ask a
teacher for an extension.

Like, the social skills.

It's all the social skills, but
I teach art, so I teach a fun

class and I can be the crazier
teacher who just like we're not

doing anything today.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 2: Finger painting.

Speaker 1: I love that.

I did so bad in art class.

Like I was, I was like not, I
just drew a bunch of stick

figures and like I was just not,
I was not in it.

I had a friend who was so far
in.

I think he was like the
backbone of like what really

helped me excel in that class.

I don't think I could have done
it without him.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: They think about it.

Speaker 2: No one should do bad
in art class.

Speaker 1: No one should do bad
Like I.

You know I had fun was really
cool though with my friend.

I had him.

He drew this like really
magnificent dragon picture and

like I hope he like as a homie
that I've known since first

grade.

We've been really good friends
ever since.

I hope that like he mints it on
the blockchain one day and just

like sends that to me as a one
of one Cause I think I would

literally die, cause I what?

Not only did it mean a lot to
me, but I helped draw all the

little grass ticks on that
picture, so I felt so

accomplished.

Speaker 2: Like I can play a
small part in this masterpiece

of an image.

There you go.

That's a collaboration.

Speaker 1: It was, it was.

You know, I played a very
important role in drawing the

grass ticks and they were really
straight and they were really

symmetrical and they, they made
it, they made it, but that was

the one I was good at.

So talk about someone who knew
how to take someone's talent,

who could draw stick figures
really well and like say, hey,

draw a bunch of lines.

Speaker 2: Just do the nice and
perfect.

Yeah, there's a place for
everything.

Speaker 1: There is a place for
everything.

I mean, look at Sartoshi and
the, and then Mephra.

You know the motherfuckers.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1: Love it.

I love that community.

Speaker 2: That's one of my
favorite communities that I've

seen.

I when I first saw the arena,
it was like you've got to be

kidding me.

It upset me.

It upset me, I'm not going to
lie.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: But then I also
remembered there was this whole

line of clothing called the good
life, or life is good.

Do you remember that?

Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds
familiar.

Speaker 2: It was exactly like
it was just little, you know,

happy face, just stick figures,
and that clothing brand did

amazing.

So yeah, sometimes it's the
less is more Right.

Speaker 1: And it's a simple
thing.

I think part of it was just the
authenticity of the of.

It is just like this is there's
no roadmap, there's no nothing.

This is just, and he had built
that brand for so long.

You know like.

Speaker 2: I'm just not, because
I sold way too early.

Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: So that's why you're
mad.

All right, got you.

I was mad because I had two V
friends, tokens that I could

book games, tokens that I could
have redeemed when they were at

a point two floor before they
skyrocketed to the what the two

to four E floor that they're at
now, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: I'm mad because I had
an opportunity.

Yeah, Damn, I know, no, I.

I said like I've tried to be
like Warren Buffett.

This is my husband's advice to
me.

Warren Buffett has like five
rules he follows for investing.

You know what are your five
rules?

And I'm like, oh, okay, so I
got to make my five rules.

So one of my rules was I have
to like the art.

Right, this is a rule we made
up after I bought my me for and

then I was like, okay, or like,
you don't really like the art,

but you know so.

So then I'm like, oh, you got
to stick to your rule.

You got to stick to your rule.

So I sold my me for and I
bought a flower girl because I

love the flower girl art.

But now I wish I had my me for
and now I like the art.

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: That's right, you
know, I'll tell you my cope.

I sold World of Women three
weeks after I mentored it.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I that I coped really
hard on that one.

How are you going to help me?

I went so far.

How are you going to help me?

I went so far as to unfollow
them on Twitter, not back.

I love the project, like I,
like I'm all about.

I wanted to succeed.

So bad, but I left the discord.

I unfollowed them on Twitter.

I'm like I cannot watch this
happen.

Speaker 2: You know, like I know
, I know I know, I know I love

my World of Women.

Speaker 1: Yeah there, it's a
great collection.

I didn't realize it and I
didn't realize it this that it

actually had the significant,
the historical significance that

it did.

Like I just I just didn't have
the cut, like I didn't, like I

couldn't conceptualize it, you
know like I couldn't.

Speaker 2: Right, I can't
predict these things, I know.

I know there's no way.

I know.

Speaker 1: But you know, what's
really funny, though, is it's

just like I flipped both of them
for point seven and I meant to

them at point oh, eight.

So it's like I made one point
for ETH and I'm still like

coping about it.

You know what I mean.

Like only only here can you
make, can you?

Can you make out with like
about three to four thousand

dollars off of a four hundred
dollar investment and be mad

about it?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Then like a few weeks
.

Speaker 2: Yeah, insane.

So true, yeah, I know yes.

Speaker 1: Well, all right.

So when I start wrapping things
up here, I want to get a little

bit more final, like.

I want to start like looking at
you know this question always

vary.

I try not to keep a cookie
cutter.

I try to like change it out
based on the person I'm speaking

to.

So, like, when it comes to the
message that I guess if you

could have like one message that
you wanted to portray through

your art throughout your entire
journey, like, what is it the

one thing that you want to
accomplish with your art?

I can be anything, whether it's
inspiring someone, whether it's

, you know, creating a mission,
whether it's what can be

literally anything and
everything, as simple as it can

be.

Speaker 2: Well, I guess, give
them a window into my soul, into

my thoughts and feelings.

I love that I expose something
about myself.

Speaker 1: I like that?

No, and I do, and you do that
very well because, like it's

different what you're doing, and
I think that one thing I've

learned is that, like a lot of
artists that I've interviewed,

is like that is the main form of
expressing, like expressing

like the inside of their soul
and so sick with that.

Like I mean, I always ask
myself questions like when I

have my like, when I created my
brand and my values, and like

what is it that I want to
accomplish and what is it that I

want people to feel?

When, after they've, like had
an experience with any form of

my content or me as a person, I
said how did that make them feel

?

Did they?

Did they think that was genuine
?

Did they think that was
authentic?

Did they think that and that's
really as simple as it is, like

do, did they feel like they got
something from my interaction

and was it genuine?

And if it wasn't genuine, then I
change it, you know, or like

what parts of it weren't genuine
or what parts of it weren't the

real me or what.

So, again, I don't want to.

I don't want to.

I don't want to get in the way
of your answer, I want to.

I'm just trying to provide some
context that there's no wrong

answer to that.

Speaker 2: I get it, I get it.

Speaker 1: It's your answer.

As long as that is what you
believe, then there's literally

no wrong answer.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's your art,
so I think some people, though

they, like a lot of people, say
that, oh, my art's personal, my

art's personal.

But I think it's because, as
I'm an art teacher, I'm highly

like critical in terms of like I
know how you're supposed to

talk about our and analyze our
and all those things.

It's okay for art not to be
personal, and I think people are

afraid to say that too.

It's like we feel this pressure
that oh, you know it's personal

.

And then I see it, people are
making stuff up, they're trying

to attach meanings to things and
make it all symbolic.

It's okay to just make art for
aesthetics, too, and art that

looks cool and doesn't actually
say anything about your thoughts

and whatever, and I just wish
more artists would realize that

it doesn't always have to be
personal.

And all my collages are not
personal.

Some of them are just I'm
technically trying a new method,

or it just looks cool.

That doesn't really mean
anything, it just looks cool.

So, you know, I do get a little
bit turned off about that in

this space, and I don't know if
it's the Twitter spaces or this

idea of story, but I feel like
some people are stretching that

story and it's like it's okay.

I say it just looks cool.

Speaker 1: I like that.

I think I'm going to end on
that note because I hadn't heard

it from that perspective before
.

I'm one of those people that
tries to assign the deepest

level of meaning to everything I
interact with, so it's really

helpful for me to hear that,
like bro, it's not that deep.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not.

And Guido helped me realize
that actually, in a space with

Guido, him and I were talking
about like nudes and male gaze

and sexuality and idealist women
and stuff, and he was like,

listen, I'm just making stuff
that looks cool, that just looks

like a cool shot of cool chick
in a cool environment wearing

cool glasses, and I'm like, okay
, I get that, you know.

And it was so refreshing to
hear him say that, because so

many other people are like, oh
no, it's about, you know, post

apocalyptic bubble and troopers
and lullaby and it's like is

there really?

Yeah, yeah, he's like he's
refreshingly honest about his

art.

Speaker 1: I've.

Really I at first I didn't
understand his art.

At first I didn't like I didn't
, I didn't get it and I get why

people liked it so much and I
didn't.

But hearing that helps and I
mean I've started like the more

I started to dive into into the
more of the truth you know, the

one of what are in that just
that scene and super rare and

the more I've started to
appreciate, like just by

watching his interactions on
Twitter, I start to understand,

Like it's weird how you can pick
up on that.

Like you start you see that work
doesn't make sense and I'm like

okay, I accept the fact that it
doesn't make sense to me, so

help me make it make sense.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I felt the
same way too, and I actually was

like almost offended by some of
his work and but through a good

kind of open conversation with
him and you know, he like

listened to why I was offended
to, which was good, and he

understood why I was offended,
which was good.

He wasn't like it's just
ridiculous.

You're just, you know, yeah,
crotchety or something.

He was like no, that makes
sense.

You have a daughter, you teach
teen girls.

You see the effect that these
kind of images has on them and

I'm like, yeah, like I've
literally had students cry to me

and like I wish I was wait, I
wish I was skinny, I wish I was

like I see the effect of these
images on young girls and it

breaks my heart, you know.

Speaker 1: Anyway, I like that.

No, I mean I don't like that,
but like I like.

Speaker 2: thank you for sharing
that, you know yeah, it was a

good conversation and I'm still
doing research because I'm still

upset by the kind of images
like that's what this series is

about to.

It is about, you know, women
being idealized and objectified

sexually and I'm still like, I'm
still finding ways to say it in

a way that people get it, but
don't because people deny it,

like so many photographers deny
it.

Oh, I don't use the mail games.

I'm not sexualizing women.

It's like I'm just like I'm not
sexualizing Well yeah, yeah, yes

, you are, yes, you're just
saying that you are so I'm, you

know, like this series, I just I
want to impart that message to

the world.

I want people to realize it's
there.

I'm not saying we need to erase
it and shut it down, but let's

recognize it.

Let's teach our young girls to
recognize it and to not fall

victim, you know to, to its
power.

Yeah, just more conversation
about it.

Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing
that.

I appreciate that.

Gave at the very end, gave a
window into your soul there.

Yeah, love that, I love that.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Aaron, last, last
question here is where?

Where can people find you
working?

People find your work.

Where do you want people to go
first?

Speaker 2: You can find me on
Twitter on Instagram life with

art.

My website is Aaron McGee and
calm.

Probably best place to go is is
my link tree on Twitter, and if

you want to see my NFT art, I
would suggest going to Super

Rare first.

But I'm on the other platforms
as well Kind of have different

collections on different
platforms, trying to organize it

yeah, Aaron this has been a
treat.

I'm going to have some exhibits
this summer, so if you're in

the city, come see some live art
.

Speaker 1: Art in person like
physically in person, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Sweet.

This has been fun.

Speaker 2: It's been so fun,
Kyle, Really really nice to chat

with you.

I appreciate you reaching out
to me and giving me the

opportunity it's good.

Speaker 1: The pleasure is mine.

It's fun to get to talk with
people who have an entirely

different creative mindset than
I do.

I've always enjoyed talking to
people my entire life, even in

my past life, when it wasn't
going too well.

I always found myself in the
one-to-one conversations or the

one-to-two conversations or
maximum five people.

If there was a gathering, it
was like a five-person gathering

.

It was super intimate, super
people that I trusted as much as

I could for my.

I didn't understand what trust
even meant at that level of life

, but I genuinely trusted them.

So this is just A lot of.

This is an expression of what
I've always enjoyed growing up.

The pleasure is mine.

I look forward to hopefully
seeing you in New York.

Yeah, if not, I'll be at
another one, because I refuse to

not be as many events as I can.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think I
don't know.

I feel really connected to so
many people in this space that I

just really Looking forward to
meeting, if not in New York I

know there's going to be more.

Speaker 1: This is not going
anywhere.

Speaker 2: We're not going
anywhere, we're going to.

It's just so exciting.

Speaker 1: And I'm excited that
you get to go to your first

event, because it was getting to
meet people on Twitter and

share this excitement and then
getting to unleash that in

person.

It can't beat it, can't beat it
, no, no.

Speaker 2: I can't wait.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Shiller Vaulted

Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

As we close out today's episode
, don't forget to subscribe to

our podcast on your favorite
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star review to ensure you never
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Podcast as well.

To stay updated on upcoming
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.

Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember if you're

looking for it art is
everywhere and it's up to us to

appreciate and explore the
emotions it brings to our lives.

Until next time, this is Boone
signing off.