Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Schiller

Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Emily Edelman.

Emily is an artist, designer,
maker and a people-gatherer.

In this episode, we discussed
some thought-provoking concepts,

such as constraints in the
creative process, the

physicality of digital art, the
role of conversation and event

design, her lifelong obsession
with the number two and so much

more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and Guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Emily.

Awesome, I think we're
recording Gia.

Emily, how are you?

Speaker 2: I'm good.

How are you?

Speaker 1: Doing well.

We had a little bit of an
offline dialogue about finally

feeling better from Marfa, which
I feel like.

After all NFT events.

I go through a recovery period,
but I think what we were

talking about earlier this one
was a lot more brutal than the

last one.

Speaker 2: We talked about a
cocktail of all of the possible

things you could catch from
people in the desert.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it was quite a
bit supposedly.

It's quite a bit supposedly,
but the one thing that was

really cool well, there's not
the one thing.

There was so many cool things
about Marfa, but getting to

watch, I don't know.

You're in New York, right?

Yeah, so you probably don't see
the stars that much, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not really
.

I want to lie and say sometimes
a little bit I swear it's great

, here come, but it's a
different story than Marfa, for

sure.

Speaker 1: Totally yeah.

A lot of people asked me as
well.

They were like you're in Texas,
don't use the first time you've

been to Marfa.

I'm like, yeah, I just don't
casually take an eight-hour road

trip to go to Marfa.

It's just not really like
people think, oh, it's in Texas,

you must go there all the time.

Texas is massive, yeah.

Speaker 2: Do you know the
population of Texas?

Speaker 1: As a native Texan, I
don't yeah, do you?

Speaker 2: Well, I asked because
on the last day of Marfa a

couple of us sat around from New
York and tried to guess the

population of Texas and or the
percent of the population of

Texas compared to the US, and we
were, like all, wildly wrong.

It's huge, massive.

I don't remember the exact
number, it was like I want to

say it was like 30 million or
something.

Speaker 1: I believe it.

Hold on, we're going to look
this up, yeah, because I know

there's.

Yeah, 29.53 million is the
population that are proctorily.

Yeah, yeah, you did good.

Yeah, it's wild, and most of
those are like within between

there's like a triangle of like
Dallas, houston, austin, san

Antonio, and that's like kind of
like where I don't know.

Like that's probably where at
least 50% of the entire state

lives, if not more.

So it's yeah, texas is a big
state.

Yeah, yeah, what was one of
your favorite takeaways from

Marfa?

Very curious.

Speaker 2: Probably just the
people.

Yeah, I kind of played this
game with myself after, where I

tried to figure out, like what
do we all have in common?

Like what is the thing that of
all of the people in the world

and all of the possibilities for
, like ways to spend time in the

world, like how did this group
of people end up in this very,

very niche and special time and
place?

And like experience, and like
what was it that brought us all

together?

I mean, I have some thoughts.

I'm curious if you do too.

Speaker 1: You know I've been.

When I try to tell people
they're like, they're like, what

did you do in Marfa?

That I don't know how to
describe it, you know, because

some people need to don't really
understand the context of Marfa

and just in general as a town,
which you know I didn't either

as a, you know, to be fully
honest, but you know I was

really I'm gonna this.

What this reminds, what that
question reminds me of, is that,

like I just I've gone to a few
different events.

You know New York has a vibe.

You know I think that's the
only one I've, the only like

in-person event I've been to.

For the most part I've only
heard stories about like NFT LA

and you know Art Baselitz coming
up here in another month or so,

and I know the vibe of New York
is just like super open, it's

super accessible and it's like
probably the place to be.

Because I don't go to any of
the the conference events.

I just I've always only gone to
the side events because I feel

like New York, that's just.

There's just so many great
events happening all the time.

And I was really excited about
Marfa because it's not easy to

get to, no matter where you are
in the world, unless you live in

El Paso, which most people
don't, which is like three hours

from Marfa.

It's not that easy of a place
to get to, and so I just

remember hearing stories about
it, about it last year, where,

yeah, where I didn't go, it's
like this just sounds like a

really really high signal event
where people who want to be here

, they really want to be here,
like I can't remember the name

of the artist that did the
Hamelies on our blocks or the

Sailor Bots collection.

He's from Singapore, he has
from Singapore and he, you know,

traveled like 18 hours, you
know, in like three flights,

just to get there.

I'm like that's nuts, that's
nuts.

I don't know the answer to your
question.

I don't know what brought us
here.

I think it's a little bit of
insanity.

I think it's a little bit of.

I think it's a rejection of the
current, you know, I guess a

rejection of, I guess, the
current system.

You know just kind of that's
just touching on NFTs and crypto

and in broad, you know, and I
think.

But what I go back to, the
feeling that I felt when I first

fell in love with the space was
, you know, there's a, there's

just a sense of freedom that
comes from something at the edge

of something new, and I think
everyone feels it, but they

don't really know quite how to
describe it.

But it's there and I've noticed
so many people have that

feeling.

So, yeah, I would say a little
bit of those three.

Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I like it
.

I feel like you thought about
this, yeah.

Speaker 1: In full transparency.

I think I may have thought
about it, but I think it may

have been more of a subconscious
thought.

Where it was, you know, it took
someone like you to ask to

force me to spit it out.

Speaker 2: Glad I did.

Yeah, I think it's everything
you said.

I think it's also a bit of luck
that we all, like have had some

, some comfort in there and in
taking the risk that it took to

get to this point and, whether
you know, whether that's

financial or just like other,
some other kind of support or

some like past experience, that
like set us up well to be able

to risk, and I think it's also,
I think, something that I find

that all of my friends in the
space have was like a real drive

, like real motivation to create
and connect and to like like

affect change in some way, or to
like put something out into the

world that came from within.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I love that.

I feel like that's a really
eloquent answer compared to mine

.

I went all over the place.

Speaker 2: I thought about it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you
have thought about it.

I'm really, I'm really glad you
shared that, because I think

that's a double click on
something, that that feeling I

think you touched on the feeling
that I mentioned earlier.

There's this, there's this kind
of drive and I, the part I have

thought about as well, is, you
know, before I found this

industry, I was, I, kind of felt
really late to the new air,

like, you know, to any new
technology.

You know, like when I was young
and the iPhone came out, I was

like 15, you know.

So I didn't really know what to
do with that.

You know, I didn't really know
like, oh, you should go on the

internet and like find a
community and like figure out

how to like tinker with apps and
the app store, and you know,

and then I missed the web to
rush, because, you know, I was a

kid and I the internet wasn't
as big as it was today, you know

, and there wasn't as much
opportunity.

It really took a lot of it
really took a lot of foresight

and a lot of conviction, which
were two things I didn't have at

that age.

So I just remember kind of
thinking, man, you know, is this

, it Like is?

Did we miss it.

Did I miss it?

Is there anything new
technologically that's going to

excite me?

The same way that happened
before, and I think there was

just this years of built up kind
of or pent up drive that just

hadn't found an outlet to to be
shared, and I think that's

really you know that.

What you touched on there is
that there is so much drive and

there is just so much.

There's the word relentless
comes to mind when, when

thinking about that, because the
people here are so, so

convicted and it's it's really
inspiring, to be honest.

No that, I think, is, you know,
like, yeah, that's, that's, yeah

, definitely the most inspiring,
and I think that that Marfa has

that really small, it's just a
small concentration.

There was only 500 people that
were there.

You know, in NFT, nyc it was
great, Like I got to bump into

some people I really wanted to
bump into, but that was a very

you know, that to me felt more
luck.

This, you know, this was very
planned out, but anyway, yeah, I

like this topic.

Speaking, speaking of the drive
we're here to talk about, we're

here to talk about you.

I'm really happy that you came
to do the pod.

It was really I was just, you
know, we have a lot of things

going on, so oftentimes I'm not
able to catch all of the spaces

that we do and full to be fully
present for them.

But I remember, after meeting
you and Marfa and then like

having Bernardo, have you come
on the space for generated, I

was like I cleared out you know
the schedules, like I need to

like listen to this.

So I was really excited and it
was really great to listen to

you, and so we just love to kind
of start off with more of a

cheesy intro of, like you know
who is, emily Edelman.

Speaker 2: Well, first of all,
thank you for being at that

space.

Yeah, emily Edelman is me.

I am an artist and a designer,
and it took me a long time to

kind of come to terms with both
of those words, because I've

felt one or the other more
strongly throughout my life.

When I was growing up, I was an
artist.

And what did I want to be when
I grew up?

An artist?

Which was really like a vague
thing when I was 10 years old,

you know.

But when I was in high school,
I got really into graphic design

and kind of started to like
understand the power of text and

typography.

So I knew that I wanted to
study graphic design in school

and where I went to school,
which was RISD or Rhode Island

School of Design, there were art
majors and design majors, and I

can't speak for anyone else,
but I felt like there wasn't

very clear distinction between
the two and I even felt pride at

being a design student and not
an art student.

And it took me a long time to
kind of understand that, like

they're both extremely different
and there's no difference at

all.

I think designers are making
art and I think artists have a

lot of the same challenges of
designers, of communication and

expression and, you know,
creating something visually

beautiful or communicative, or
hopefully both.

So I spent 10 years as a
designer out of college, working

in events and experiences,
designing like large,

fantastical spaces, and I really
loved it for a long time.

I still do a bit of it, which
we can talk a little bit about.

Yeah, but yeah discovering
gendered art just felt like kind

of for me, a perfect blending
of the two worlds and like the

challenges that it, from my own
experience, came from both art

and design, and I label myself
as an artist now in the space

because we have these labels
like you're an artist or you're

a builder or you're a collector,
and I am an artist but I think

I'm also still very much an
designer.

Speaker 1: I like that answer
and I think you touch on a lot

of things that I think not only
myself but a lot of other people

struggle with is that, you know
, as humans we try to, we try to

box things in and label things,
just because I think there's a

bit of comfort, like a little
bit of a mental comfort, in how

we process information, how we
take in and how we describe it

and how we make sense I guess
just make sense of the world is

a better way to put that.

And so it's really interesting
to hear the two buckets, you

know, like they're everything.

You know they're the same and
they're not the same at the same

time, which is really beautiful
and I think you know it's a

nice.

It's a nice.

I'm glad we're talking about it
because I think us as a society

we have such a hard time saying
both are like the same thing or

having a nuanced discussion
about you know two different

topics.

It's either you're either this
or you're that and it's you know

, and we can bucket those in as
a whole.

So I'd love to kind of just go
back to like when you were, when

you first got into graphic
design, like were there any kind

of like, I guess, maybe signs,
or from an early age or any

memories that you're like you
can kind of trace back to be

like yeah, like that makes sense
of, like why I'd be a designer

now.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I had a
teacher in high school who was a

photo teacher and he, I think,
made like one of the first

graphic design sauce in my high
school and we made graphic

design in Photoshop, which if
you are a graphic designer you

know that's like a little bit
crazy and the reason is because

Photoshop is a raster program
and Illustrator, for example, is

a vector program which is just
much better set up for using

text and it's also just a
program that gives you a lot

more control over text.

But anyway, this class is a
graphic design class in high

school in Photoshop and I think
we had to design like an album

cover and it did.

I just felt kind of immediately
that it wasn't like the other

art classes I took in high
school where you were trying to

make something visually
beautiful or conceptual but you

actually had to communicate.

Something like the title of the
album cover needed to be a part

of the design, but it also
needed to be functional and that

sort of like duo challenge was
just really fascinating to me

and I felt natural at it and
didn't necessarily feel good at

it yet.

But, I felt very drawn to that
challenge.

Speaker 1: Like that.

I mean that that sounds like.

It sounds like you're kind of
forged in fire to do something

like that in Photoshop.

You know where there's not as
many, where I guess there's not

as many.

What's the word I'm looking for
?

Constriction isn't the right
word, but you know, there's not

as many boundaries, it's a lot
more free form.

There's not as many rules,
there's not as many parameters.

You can kind of like truly fuck
around and find out and like

allow things to go in a very
different direction.

That's really interesting.

Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry, sorry
to interrupt.

No, no, I just like I said all
this about like Photoshop isn't

for graphic design, but like, if
you want to work text in a

certain way, it totally is.

There's like a million ways to
make.

Do you know what I'm talking
about?

Have you used Photoshop?

Speaker 1: I have but not like,
probably not in any way shape or

form remotely close to like.

I've done it very, very like to
make, like my old podcast

thumbnails.

I used Photoshop but it was
like a I paid a designer to

design a template and then I put
two images in and then, like,

basically had a template to
modify text.

So it's like I used it, but I
mean it was a really expensive

way to use something like that.

I probably could have gotten
away with a lot, something a lot

cheaper.

But technically, yes, but
probably like reality, no, I can

confidently say that.

Speaker 2: I'm curious this is
so niche but like did you ever

run into a moment where, like
you have this template that's

been set up for you with like a
certain amount of room for text,

but then the text actually like
ends up being longer than like

the template allows and then
you're like you suddenly like

have to be the designer?

Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit.

So I, but I probably made it
look really bad.

Really, my left curve solution
to that, or my left curve, you

know, talk about constraints,
you know.

So this is all done, this is
all done.

When I had a nine to five and I
could only edit and do any of

this on the weekends, you know,
because by the time you get home

from a job that you don't like,
I just, I just I just did, yeah

, just done, I just yeah.

So it was an interesting
exercise in that.

But my thought was, oh, I'm
just going to make the text

smaller.

That's really that was my only
solution and that's, you know.

And it worked.

But it you could tell some
things were off center.

You could tell things were like
a little off, but I was just

like this is, you know, my, you
know.

So this is, this will be an
interesting through line here.

But my, my thought was what are
people here for?

You know, this is part of, like
, my creative journey to learn

it to become, you know, I guess,
just better at what I do.

Is that, what are my strengths
and what are my weaknesses?

And you know, I look at my
strength as the conversation and

I look at editing and you know
the visuals as like second and

third tier as far as importance
for me, you know.

So it's like what are people
really here for and what really

matters Does?

Does the center, does, does the
off center name really matter

to people in the grand scheme of
things?

For me no, and especially as a
solo person who is wearing many

hats, I kind of just allowed my
strengths which was the

conversation, to kind of drag
the weaknesses.

You know what I mean.

So yeah, that was so good.

Speaker 2: So beautifully put.

I think that's like a very,
very important perspective.

Speaker 1: Well, I think it is,
you know, because we have.

We only have so much time in
the day to to, like you know,

and it's like what are we good
at and where?

Where is the best use of our
time, you know?

And that was it for me, because
I just, you know, what I

focused on was like, I just need
to be consistent.

This needs to be consistent in
some way, shape or form, and if

there's a little quirk here,
it's part of the fun of also

being a human is like finding
the imperfections right.

So Definitely.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such.

I love that perspective a lot.

It's, yeah, I think, a lot
about like efficiency and work

and like where each cut corners,
you know, I think like court.

Actually, I think corner
cutting is an art.

Speaker 1: This is news, this is
great news and I love it.

Please elaborate on that, if
there's an example on that.

Speaker 2: Oh man, oh I don't
know, or let's.

Speaker 1: I don't know if I To
be example.

How about this?

So one of the takeaways I had
from your chat with Bernardo was

it's more on the efficiency
beat, where you like to get

things out fast, you like to not
spend too much time on an idea.

Has that always been?

Is that your personality in
general, or is that only

exclusively with creating
generative art or design?

Speaker 2: I think it's been my
personality in general and in

part I think it's kind of been
like trained into me by the

career I had in event design.

Just because things move so
incredibly fast and you don't

really have the luxury of like
like toying with ideas and like

marinating on things for a
really long time, you have to

like make quick decisions and
and like find, find like the

creative hook and and like the
kind of like little efficiencies

through it really fast.

But I also just think that
there's and I think I think so

that's kind of one part, and the
other part is that the

constraint to time is really
valuable.

And then the third thing I
think is just that I personally

work well with under stress and
that can mean time stress and it

often does so.

I so like recognizing that is,
I think, just like it's like

it's helpful to recognize that
and and kind of like recognize

that and kind of plan
accordingly.

So I get myself into these like
crazy schedules where I'm

working seven days a week, 15
hours a day, for months.

And then I have a couple of
months where like I just I mean,

I'm getting stuff done but I'm
also traveling and I'm hanging

out and I'm sleeping late and
the like whole piece of this CD

list not me every day and it's
just like a completely different

mentality that works for me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you
know, I think that's an interest

that I think that's part of
growing up a little bit well is

is understanding.

You know how well, like, how we
function, and I find that really

fascinating and I can relate to
that in a lot of different ways

and I think, in a way, you know
, you could want one could argue

that you know, I didn't want to
do any editing during the week,

but part of me, like, really
enjoys the process of, like,

making creative decisions in
real time, because I feel like I

learned this from my favorite
band in the world is Tool, you

know, and a big fan of Maynard
just him in general as well, and

he often talks about what
you're talking about here is

that a lot of, a lot of people,
a lot of artists, a lot of

creatives in general, they try
to like have this, they try to

create this Zen, perfect
environment with all the time in

the world and they just can't
be bothered by anything and they

need the creative space to do
this.

And while there's an element of
truth to that, like that needs

to be there, but he's just like
I'm listening to song lyrics in

my truck on the way to, like you
know, do my thing at the winery

.

You know, like if I have an
hour uninterrupted and it's, it

doesn't have to be in my studio,
it doesn't have to be in this

certain specific location, it
doesn't have to be for six hours

.

Like I do it when I can because
of that time constraint, and I

think that there's something,
there's something to that, you

know where.

Two, I don't know if you
experienced this, but like too

much, too much freedom or too
much it, just it, just it, just

it's a recipe for mental
disaster.

Speaker 2: My, I think my like
nightmare project was one that

was a significant.

Oh my God, there's the Martha
sickness still.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 2: On today or like
maybe 10 times today.

Anyway, my nightmare project
was a project and I was assigned

in college in a class called
making meeting, in which you

literally had to like come up
with meeting.

And there's a project where it
was like, just come up with a

concept and I idea a story or
anything was like you like make

it free.

And I remember like having like
tier, tiery conversations with

my mom at like two in the
morning and I was like I just

don't know what to do, like it
could be this or this and it was

like oh, I still think about
that sometimes.

So, yeah, I think there's
constraint is good, I think like

flexibility and like work
locations, but it's really cool

to hear.

I love thinking about him like
driving in it, like driving to

one show, but like thinking
about, thinking about lyrics to

a new song or something.

I don't think everyone can work
like that and I definitely

respect people who like need the
like uninterrupted time and I

think that it can be very
valuable.

I mean, I think in some cases
it's necessary at some points in

this process.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, I think
the dialogue was more like I

think all the time.

Speaker 1: You know it's like.

I think I definitely agree with
you there.

There's like certain elements
where you know it's definitely

needed, we're having
uninterrupted thought is is

necessary, but you know, it may
not always be in the environment

that we want.

There may be other restrictions
, there may be life happening at

the same time.

You know there's an art to
boundary setting which I think

that you know I've learned and
you know, let me ask you this

this is something I'm fascinated
by.

So, like you know, we have like
sounds like you're really good

at creating your own constraints
.

You know, as far as I mean, one
could argue, let's just go with

that.

One could argue, you know, do
you find a diff?

Is there any sort of?

I don't really know what I'm
asking here, but there's

constraints that the world
provides and then there's

constraints that we provide.

Is, you know, do you find that
the constraints, I guess working

on a project, do you find that
the constraints are more

self-imposed by you or are they
more like just the life that you

live, or the life around you,
or external dependencies?

Do they kind of create those or
do you manifest as yourself?

No, I think I guess I kind of
see them, as you know the kind

of.

You know the kind of.

Speaker 2: I think I guess I
kind of see them, as I see it,

in two categories.

There's like the logistical
constraints, like how much time

do you have, do you have like a
good place to work, do you have

the like materials and
technology and like hardware

that you need to work.

And I think for me a lot of
that is external, like I

appreciate a deadline and I like
having a place to where it's

important to me to have like a
place outside of my home to work

, and I luckily have that.

And then I think there's also
like the internal, or there's

the more like creative
constraints that are specific to

the project.

Like with most of the work that
I've done in the last couple of

years, they've been pretty
internal, but I really really

love like a creative challenge
or a theme, because I have I

actually have this dream.

Just I'm going to go out on a
tangent now.

I have this I have a dream to
do a show about like a really

really like simple, dumb theme
like banana or fruit, and gather

like a hundred artists and have
each of them like represent

that thing in their own way.

And the constraint is like
maybe they have to be like eight

by eight inch squares and they
have to be a banana and but then

, like, anything is possible
after that and I love that that

like incredibly tight constraint
is going to produce something

wildly different from artist
artist.

So I try to think about that
and it's very generative and I

love like.

I love that way of thinking and
I try to kind of like bring

that to my own work, like, if
there's a theme I'm interested

in, like, what are all of the
different ways I can explore it?

And then all of the different
ways I can represent it in a way

that feels like both
exploratory and cohesive, and I

think that's generative art.

Speaker 1: Hmm, that's a bike
drop.

I love that tangent, I love
that, and so I mean I feel like

it would be a perfect segue to
like talk about.

You know, the generative
project that's coming out to.

That was something that I was
been like.

I remember I was, I was late to
your Femme Gen drop and I was

like well, I slept, I sat on my
hands, it just it was really

cool.

And then, when you sent me over
the twos, I was like that's

really interesting and I didn't
know really anything about it at

the time.

I'm like, is it just number two
?

You know, like, what's the like
?

How important could this be?

How impactful could this be?

Because I think that for me
it's a.

You know, one thing I really
admire and I'm happy I'd love to

get more into this about you is
that, like you take these

things that we see every day and
you kind of like take them out

of the zeitgeist, you take them
out of, like the, their original

format that we just kind of
accept as reality, and you try

to allow people to think about
them in a new way, which, you

know.

That's to me what twos is.

So I'd love to know, you know,
let's just start there.

You know, let's just start
there, like how did that, how

did that concept come out, or
how long have you been thinking

about that and why now, versus
you know however long you've

been thinking about it?

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, great
question.

I started thinking about twos
in college and I think I was.

I think I was like waiting for
somebody, like I was like

waiting for.

I think I was like at like some
guy's house, some guy's parents

house.

He was like talking to his
parents.

I was like waiting for him to
be done, talking to his parents

or something to go out, and I
think that was it.

That's kind of the memory I hold
is like the beginning of my

Tuesday, because there's a $20
bill crumbled on like a table

and I was just bored and kind of
mindless and just kind of like

meditating accidentally on this,
on the form of the two on the

$20 bill, and thought it was
really beautiful and I just kind

of started drawing it.

I don't even know if it was all
that thoughtful, but I somehow

subconsciously put myself on
this path of like obsessing over

the two and trying to find the
perfect two.

And by find I mean like I don't
know.

It's kind of it's interesting
to think about, like art as

found, like it's possible and
it's out there like all the past

, all the pixels just coming
into place in this way, like

it's almost like a discovery
that you have to work to make.

So I thought of the two that way
.

I thought like there must be
like a perfect two in balance

and in weight and in drama.

And the two kind of slowly
developed over, probably like a

year, and it became two marks.

So it became something that
like you know, if I was in a

workshop and we needed to try
out a material and you could

draw anything, I just would draw
the two or like there was a lot

of work.

Like there was a night in
college where a couple friends

are like let's go around
Providence and like tag things

with like little, like little,
our little marks, whatever.

I don't even know what that
meant to them, but to me it was

like great.

I'm gonna like take a Sharpie
and like put my twos on

mailboxes.

You know which I shouldn't say,
I shouldn't say in a recording,

but I wonder if any of them are
still out there.

Probably not.

There weren't that many, and
they were in private mailboxes.

They were not.

Speaker 1: Okay, okay, they were
not in private mailboxes.

Okay, they were in private
mailboxes.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know,
okay, all right, even like the

kind of mailbox that, like you,
you know you mail something, you

mail something in a city and
anyway, so many years later, so

the two kind of stuck with me
and there's these little moments

in the last 10 years now, or 12
years almost, that the two has

come back up.

And then during COVID, I was
like kind of obsessive about

coloring books for various
reasons and I would, I would

take these like geometric
coloring books and like add twos

to them and then use those new
lines as like the lines of the

coloring books.

And then I think about, I think
almost exactly a year ago I

kind of started thinking about
the two again and realized that

like there's still so much more
to explore and I'm pretty deep

and generative right now, like
is there some kind of

relationship there?

And I also was just curious to
see if I could like translate

the lines of the two to code in
a way that were, a way that made

it like even more flexible than
what I could do to it and

illustrator.

Speaker 1: When you, this is
fascinating.

So like one thing that stuck
out to me, there's a lot of

things that stuck out to me.

But when you say drama,
associate, you know of a two,

what is?

What does that mean?

Like, yeah, what does that mean
?

Speaker 2: Well, I think in
general in art and design and

drama, drama in composition
comes from tension and and, I

guess, contrast.

So with the two there's like
these moments of like big

swooping curves and then these
really tight, tight corners, and

then there's also these like
really big areas of like bulbous

shape and then there's like a
really really thin area and then

like a really delicate little
like point on the end of the

tail.

So there's yeah, there's like
kind of inherent, I think there.

I think there's like an
inherent to drama, to a two.

I thought about calling the
project swoop, point and tail.

The two a point and then a tail
Got it.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I
was because you said that before

and I'm like what is she what?

What does she mean by that?

Like, are twos really dramatic?

You know?

Am I just, am I just missing
something?

Is there just something that
people feel when they see to

that I'm just completely not
missing?

Yeah, I guess.

So here's.

Here's another question have
you, through this, through this

project and through, like, going
through this process, have you

found, do you think you've found
, the perfect two, or do you

think that that's going to be an
ongoing quest?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this.

This is the two, this the two,
and its form is the two, that it

hasn't changed that much in the
last like, probably like, since

, like a couple of years after I
started drawing it.

I don't think anything is
perfect and there's always room

for either improvement or like
change or play, but I think my

like 22 year old self felt like
it was perfect and time to stop,

stop, like, pushing its
possibilities in the form.

Speaker 1: I like that.

It's interesting talking about
perfection and generative art at

the same time.

Yeah, or like, there's not
something that's for, but

generative art, like I've often
noticed, it's it's the

culmination of a pixel, perfect,
of perfect pixels to display,

you know, an image.

So the concept of like
perfection there's nothing you

know that's truly perfect in the
form of generative art is, you

know, I'm still a little bit new
to generative art.

So it's just, all these
concepts are kind of very

fascinating to me, where it's
like well, so what do we look

for in generative art?

Where is where do the
imperfections lie?

How do we spot you on the
imperfections?

What are some of like the
imperfections that artists like

intentionally leave in
generative art?

And so I guess that leads to
the question of you know, kind

of going back to your story of
you know you started out as a

designer and then you found
generative art.

You know, how did I guess?

How did, yeah, how did you find
generative art, or did

generative art find you?

Speaker 2: I think we found each
other.

Speaker 1: Like two things
finding each other.

Speaker 2: I mean I found it.

I learned about it as it exists
currently on the blockchain.

I mean, as a design student, I
definitely learned about the

history of generative making.

In some ways, I think it also
found me because when I started

messing around with generative
art, it just was such an

immediate connection, because
it's so, and at least the way I

go about it is so similar to
graphic design where you're just

kind of endlessly iterating and
that endless iteration is just

crucial to process.

I think process is so important
.

When you begin a project, if
you know exactly what it's going

to look like in the end and
you're just executing, then it's

not really.

It's possible.

It might be beautiful, it might
be special, but I think for me

personally, without getting lost
in a bit of process or starting

from a place where I can't
quite say what the end is going

to look like, it's really
important to producing the best

possible work.

In some ways, generative art is
just process, it's all process.

Then, once it's actually art,
it's done.

It's beyond its own, it's sold.

I mean, if you're talking about
like on-chain, not curated,

long-form generative art, then
it's like literally the only

thing you have control over is
process because, there's no cure

.

It's hard, but it's also part
of the beauty is getting lost in

all of the process and
realizing the only up control

over the process.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's been the
Even when chatting with some of

the stuff about generative art,
like with my mother, because

she's been in corporate America
or she was in corporate America

for a while and she's retired,
but she's just like I just don't

understand how I look at as a
software engineer or a coder and

I just look at them as a coder,
I don't really think of art

when I think of numbers and
lines and all this other stuff

that is used to create the
output.

I think it's a really
interesting conversation about

what the process being the main
thing has your process changed

throughout the year?

Do you kind of typically keep
the same process or does it

change based on the idea that
you're trying to, I guess, to

manifest?

Speaker 2: I think there's some
patterns in the process.

I think, individually, probably
a lot of artists could say that

there's a certain cadence of
work that they find themselves

in for each project.

I think it's important to try
to change that.

A lot of my projects recently
have been a few months and the

beginning is it feels like
spiraling around an idea and

then there's these moments of
clarity, but then they lead to

more questions.

Then there's always the huge
conversation at the end of what

is the title of this collection.

I want to change that a bit.

I have this running list of
project title ideas that I

really love.

I want to dive into some of
those and figure out.

What does that mean?

Why am I interested in this?

What is the right visual to the
art?

That is just the title, then I
don't know.

The idea of having to create
something one day is also

interesting to me.

I think the idea of Tues was,
in a lot of ways, a 12-year

project, and I think it will
live on in different ways.

I also think about what is my
next number that I can spend the

next 10 years drawing and
meditating around.

Speaker 1: Actually, I'm curious
if you have a favorite number,

if there's a number that stands
out to you either visually or

conceptually, or that you just
see Outside of the memeable

numbers that we use here on a
day-to-day basis the sounds, Not

because of the significance of
it, but I think that 7 is always

something that has always stuck
out to me.

Not because it's lucky number 7
, but there's a part of me that

when I look at that it feels
comfy to look at, there's a

sense of comfort when looking at
that.

I don't know anything beyond
that, but that's probably what

comes to mind when thinking
about that.

I think that's what's really
cool about this is that you're

probably going to inspire at
least a handful of people to

start thinking about text and
numbers and the significance of

them in a different way.

I think also, what sticks out
for me as well is, especially

when I was a kid, I grew up
watching basketball and some of

my favorite players.

Ironically, Clyde Drexler was
one of my favorite basketball

players and 22 was his number.

That always stuck out 34, like
a Kimmelajewan.

When players, that's actually
really interesting.

When players that either rise
to the top or they hold a

significant, it means something
special, For whatever reason.

You'll never forget that number
.

There's a feeling associated.

Every time you see that number
again, there's a sense of

nostalgia, there's a sense of
wow, that's super interesting.

I haven't really thought about
that.

Speaker 2: What you just
explained is doing what I want

to do with the two, which is
taking it out of the context of

its existence in a line of
numbers and its utility in

everyday life and turning it
into an object to be pulled.

When you see 22 on the back of
a jersey, it has nothing to do

with the quantity 22 at all.

It could have been a star, or
it could have been a picture or

something.

You would have felt that same
feeling if you looked at that

same symbol.

However, many years later, it
becomes an object to cherish,

almost.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really.

I haven't really thought about
that till you asked.

Thank you for asking that,
because we don't really think of

them as objects.

We don't really think of these
things as objects at all.

There's the utility in that.

That's really all there is.

It's there to serve a purpose.

It's there to help solve
problems.

It's there to help us figure
out financials to do different

things Kind of a boring utility.

It's necessary, but it's really
useful.

Yeah, this is interesting.

You mentioned I'm a big fan of
meditation.

You mentioned a couple times.

Like I meditate on this.

Do you have a?

What is meditation?

Yeah, it's a super broad
question, but I guess, what is

meditation to you?

How do you practice it?

Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I have
never really practiced it

consistently, I'm just going to
say it.

I have a couple friends who are
really into meditation and they

have joked that I don't need I
really don't need to meditate

because she brings so much.

What do they say?

What I do is meditative.

To me, they feel like I bring a
similar benefit into the world

as if I had meditated, as if I
was a meditator.

I'm not describing this well
because I don't know.

I've never said that out loud,
but yeah, I don't know.

I think I really value the
benefits of meditation.

I think I would benefit from
actually meditating, but I also

really just believe in the
meditative power of getting lost

in some activity or something
that pulls you into the moment

in a really deep way.

I think I have a lot of that in
my life.

Naturally, I feel like it's an
appropriate word to use, but I'm

no expert on traditional
meditation.

Speaker 1: Anyone who calls
himself an expert in meditation.

I would never believe them.

It's the one thing you can't be
an expert in, because I think

you described it really
beautifully.

I'm glad you went there,
because it's really anything

that Meditation is really just
being present and being present

with the environment, your
thoughts, your surroundings,

everything and being able to
just watch.

I practice it in the morning,
but it's a 10 to 15 minute thing

.

I guess that's just what it is.

For me is that it's allowing my
thoughts to be present and not

having an emotional response to
them.

I think that there's something
really powerful of when humans

think things.

We tend to assume the identity
of those thoughts.

Where it's like oh, I'm
thinking this, therefore I must

be this.

If I'm fearful, that means, if
I'm fearful of this, whatever

this is that hasn't happened yet
, then that means it must be

true.

It's something that either has
happened in the past or hasn't

happened in the future.

I'm a big fan of Dune.

That line like fear is the mind
killer and that line I must not

feel fear.

Fear is the mind killer.

It's a little blip that
obliterates.

I can't remember the line, but
it's so fascinating, right, yeah

, big fan of Dune.

Recently read the book or
listened to the audio book, and

have been watching the movies
ever since, anyway.

Speaker 2: Do you find the
actual line?

Please send it to me.

I really like that a lot.

I think there's immense power
in living in the moment and I

know it's a corny thing to say,
but I think probably I'm present

to a fault.

Truly, I have a friend, also me,
that I need to be more

reflective and not move on so
quickly from Pat the Past, but

not that I'm not sentimental or
nostalgic just where my head is

at.

That reminds me of this scene
in Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt,

which is a comedy show, where
she's stuck underground in a

bunker, she's been kidnapped and
she has to turn this crank and

she tells her fellow kidnappers
that don't think about tomorrow,

just think about 10 seconds at
a time.

Then, when those 10 seconds are
over, you can think about a new

10 seconds Then when those are
over, but don't just think about

these 10 seconds.

I love it.

It's such a silly, strange
reference that I love that,

thinking that if you can get
through 10 seconds you can do it

again.

But also, if you get to get
through 10 seconds, then you'll

get to again that the only ones
that really matter are these.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, think
about anything else in the world

.

Right now we're having
conversation and right now

there's nothing else in the
world that's actually happening

that matters in each of our
lives in this moment.

Maybe in an hour from now.

That'll be wrong.

It'll be whatever thing we're
on to next.

I think it's real easy to
challenge your point a little

bit.

Being present, I guess, at
least from what I've learned, is

that you can also look back at
the past.

Looking back is part of being
in the moment, because we use

that as a parameter.

We use that as a way to learn
from our mistakes.

Oftentimes it's not conscious.

Then, financial planning is
part of the future.

It's good to think about it a
little bit, it's good to plan

for it, but you can be in the
moment while planning for the

future.

It's an interesting thing.

I look at the toxic way of
doing that is, being in fear of

making the same mistake again in
the future, where it's like

this repetitive cycle.

It's like, well, this feels
like the same thing.

You made this mistake,
therefore, it's going to happen

again.

What's really interesting is,
at least for me, is that while

some of it may look similar, it
may rhyme, but it's not the same

, because the circumstances are
different.

Times have changed.

We're in different spots
emotionally, physically,

financially.

There's a lot of different
things have changed, so

therefore that can't be true.

It's a bit of a tangent, but
yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I love it.

I think that's such a good
reminder also of the distinction

between I'm spending all of my
time thinking about the future

versus sitting with the feeling
of being excited about the

future In the pandemic.

I felt like I meditated on the
word won't a lot, because there

was just in the pandemic.

There was like want to go
outside, want to eat restaurant

food, want to see my friends and
family and give hugs.

I decided that there's such a
beauty in the feeling of wanting

, like whether or not is less
relevant to that feeling.

Speaker 1: You know, what's
really interesting is that I've

often associated want as a bad
thing, because I've always been

asked the question when making
any sort of decision do you want

that or do you need that?

When you ask a question like
that, it makes the want feel

like a bad thing when it's
really not.

I mean, there's nothing
objectively good, it just is

what it is.

But we often assign these good
and bad labels to things.

The reality is that they just
are what they are.

There's no good or bad to it.

The good or bad is our way of
coping with them.

And so I was always asked that
I'm growing up do you want that

or do you need that?

It was always under the context
of want of should you really be

doing that unless you need it?

And as I've grown up, the
answer to that is like fuck, no.

But it's interesting that we're
talking about that and I like

that you've reflected and
meditated on that word, because

I think it's incredibly powerful
.

If you don't want things, we'll
never get.

What the fuck is the point?

Speaker 2: Yeah, a motivator,
and it's also the pleasures of

life.

Maybe the content should be
want or want.

Speaker 1: That's the idea of
wanting.

Someone will always ask me that
question Do you like the idea

of, do you like this or do you
like the idea of this?

And I hate when people ask me
that question because it's

usually the idea of it and I'm
like fuck man, because if it's

the idea of it but I can
romanticize it so much, I'll

romanticize the idea of
something versus the reality of

it or the practicality of it.

The shiny object syndrome.

When buying new products or
buying new things, the idea of

this sounds good, but when you
buy it you're like I'm never

going to use this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Sometimes I get
into that loop to with NFT,

with digital art, often in the
form of NFT.

I try to appreciate that I can
look at it and I can want to

want it and I can feel that
feeling of wanting it and I can

feel the connection of having
wanted it but actually I'm not

going to spend the money right
now.

Sometimes I do.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I did that
today.

I bought.

So I did it twice Once was in
Marfa and once was today.

Okay, because I'm starting to
appreciate the idea of physicals

more as well.

There is as much as I love the
digital space and I am full

steam ahead with everything that
we're doing and we're just

going to be looking at more
screens as society goes on, so

might as well.

But there is something very
unique about a physical print

and it carries a different
weight, carries a different

energy.

It's nothing, it's not better
or worse.

But I remember when Avanart
release, or Dimitri released,

the LACMA iterations and I saw
it and I'm like, oh, it's so

cool, probably not going to get
it, but like so cool.

And then I kept reading I'm
like it's going to come with an

NFT counterpart.

I'm like it's still cool, but
it's not a 721, it's 1155, so

it's not directly tied to it,
probably not going to do it.

But then I saw it in Marfa and
I'm like, fuck man, I'm getting

this.

I checked myself twice and I
was like, nope, it doesn't check

this box.

Nope, doesn't do that.

But when I saw it in person, I
was like this is it.

And Jordan Lyle actually, I
remember him saying in a space

or some point he was talking
about his Fidenza and how it was

a conversation piece when
people walked in his house and

I'm like when I saw it I
immediately knew where it was

going to go and I immediately
knew when someone comes over

they'll ask a question about it
and I'm like this is a

conversation piece.

I'm like God fuck man, I didn't
want to spend the money but I

did.

And then this morning I did
that with the 10K punks print

from Avanart as well.

So I got that as well, because
it did come with a 721 that is

directly linked to the print and
I'm like, okay.

Speaker 2: So I mean we are like
physical creatures in a

physical world.

It makes sense and I think it's
important to like, not leave

behind physical art because
they're A like because, a we are

physical humans and B because
there's so much opportunity for

linking to the digital component
.

The third thing I'll add to
that is that I also want to make

a case for digital art display
being a physical object, not the

asset being a physical object
or its ownership, but the way

that digital art can be shown is
very physical.

All the decisions around that
are physical, like what is the

light quality and screen texture
and the hardware and the frame

and the depth and the setting
that it's in, the light setting

that it's in, and those are all
very physical decisions.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Do you have any?

Yeah, I mean, do you have a
digital display to display your

art?

See, I don't either.

Speaker 2: Well, yeah sure I do.

Speaker 1: Right, right, right,
outside of your phone.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2: No part of that is
because I am embarrassed to say

how long ago I moved, but
somewhat recently and I still

haven't really done anything.

But eventually I think the
dream is to have a TV that is

also a beautiful art display
that can be rotated.

Yeah, I don't know, one day I
would like that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree
.

I mean, I think the I just
haven't found a place where it

would work well in my apartment.

The idea of it kind of being
right here is a cool.

There's a nice little spot here
for it.

But that's where the wringer
Like when I Because to me it's

like if I would have thought a
digital display would have

looked good there, I would have
already bought one.

So it's like you kind of like,
at least in my experience.

I've been in the same apartment
for six years, so you kind of

just know when you see it You're
like that's going to go there.

But I really want a digital
display because I feel like I

have too much good art that it
just doesn't do it any sort of

justice on the phone.

It's cool to be on the phone.

I have a 2K monitor which it
allows me to view it in very

unique ways.

Yeah, I feel I like the concept
of the display being a physical

art piece, if you will, with
all the things that go into it.

What do you?

I'm not sure if you've done any
research into it.

Is there anything that's
lacking in it for you currently?

Is there anything that you'd
maybe like to see that you

haven't seen.

I guess, what would be your
dream display is outside of the.

You had the TV either rotated,
but anything beyond that.

Speaker 2: Okay, yes, it looks
like paper and it magically can

change size and shape and it can
also change image.

Then I say that because I think
, like light quality and screen

texture can be great materials
in designing art and deciding

how it's displayed, but to me,
the Unless art is so explicitly

designed for screen either the
light quality of the screen or

its ability to animate.

To me, the most exciting thing
about having a screen display at

home is its ability to change
the art that's on it.

So yeah, I don't know.

That's a good question.

Speaker 1: Because it hasn't
been something compelling enough

to be like I need that and to
bypass all of the things that

prevent me from buying things on
a whim.

It hasn't really passed any of
that.

I think part of it is just
because I have three monitors

and I have two TVs, so part of
that is self-imposed, but it

hasn't been something compelling
enough.

And I think the paper aspect I
think of when you said that it

made me think of the way
Kindle's work and a lot of these

new readers were.

It feels like paper.

There's just something
beautiful about that texture

where it's just really great.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but you do lose
something.

You lose the light quality.

I can't imagine Zach
Lieberman's work on a Kindle On

that kind of display.

Totally, yeah, the last time I
spent, the last time I made a

technological purchase on a whim
that was over $200, were these

sunglasses that had little tiny
speakers built into the?

Do you know what I'm saying?

They're from Bose.

Speaker 1: I've seen those?

Yeah, yeah, totally.

I was just going to say Bose,
yeah.

Speaker 2: And they're actually
amazing.

But when I saw them, when I
tried a friend's on, I literally

got out my phone and bought
them right away because it was

just such a magic I didn't know
that was possible that you could

be the only person hearing the
sound because it's so

directional.

But the quality is good and it
just looks like you're wearing

sunglasses.

I'm not saying that's not out
there.

Digital displays I think
there's a lot of beautiful

displays out there.

I just don't maybe either feel
really well-versed in the

options or, having come across
something where I'm like,

personally, I'm going to spend
my money right this second on it

.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

But you also think that because
we collect all different types

of art and it's like I collect
some portrait work, I collect

generative work, I collect
square portrait, I collect

there's photography and there's
3D, and then there's generative

and there's all these different
aspect ratios alongside the

medium as well, and I think
that's what hangs me up as well,

because it's only half the art
that I buy going to look good on

one of these displays and that
sucks.

It's only half the art looks
good and I wouldn't want to

spend that much money on
something.

I think it's where I'm at with
it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm with you.

Yeah, I think it's really
really hard to size generative

art or digital art.

That's not that his ratio isn't
variable or isn't flexible, and

I don't usually like working
with a flexible ratio because I

just I think I'm too
compositionally focused, but I

don't know that that's not
possible.

I just it's not always my
inclination, but I think there's

something to creating art that
fits a screen and might not fit

screens forever, but to know at
least for sure, in the near

future it can fill a digital
object that it's built for, that

it's designed for Totally.

Speaker 1: Yeah, this has been.

It's nice having these
conversations because I don't

often share any of these
thoughts.

It's like, well, why don't I
want it?

The space moves so fast where I
just oftentimes I just don't

think about things, I'm just
always just onto the next thing.

It's, I guess, like one of the
blessings, but also the it can

be detrimental at times, because
I feel like this space really

rewards creative thinkers and
people who can think creatively

in spite of the pace that this
industry moves in.

But yeah, I want to go back to
a little bit in the first part

of your story about doing some
physical design work I'm not

sure the way you put it, but you
were doing events.

You still do that alongside
generative art.

Is that correct?

Speaker 2: It wasn't correct.

For about two years I quit my
event job and I have been doing

generative art pretty full time.

There's two.

I guess there's two things that
break that.

One is I've been producing an
event for two years now.

We're planning the third.

It's called Token Art and it's
an event that I put on with

Stevie P and Alex Epke.

It's an unconference.

It's an event designed to allow
conversations to unfold

organically within specific
topics.

The community brings those
topics to us and then we curate

them around space.

Attendees can drift between
topics, they can get really deep

into one for two hours or they
can float around and listen.

It's been a really special
event and it's definitely part

of the reason that I was excited
to work on it from the very

beginning, to make this happen
with them, because I had enough

experience that it was
comfortable.

You should come this year.

Have you been to Token Art?

Speaker 1: No, I don't think so.

Speaker 2: This year you'll be
there.

If you're in New York, you
don't have to.

Speaker 1: I'll be there.

Speaker 2: You'll be there Good.

The other thing that has broken
my two-year streak of just

working on generative art is
that I am now working with

bright moments on their Paris
events, leading the charge on

all of it.

It's great, because it's the
kind of work that I did for so

long, that there's a comfort
level, and even I purposely

moved away from that for various
reasons, including burnout and

just wanting to spend time on my
own art.

I really love bright moments
and really love what they do,

and it feels good to be working
on these events with them.

I don't think it's going to I
mean, after Paris I think I'm

going to need a break from
working on events but I love

that.

It's something that I can
always pull back in for our

community and something that I
can bring to the community from

a past life.

Speaker 1: Really like that.

I mean, first of all, that's
cool I have Before I'm going to.

There's something I want to
talk about in a little bit, but

before we go that did you lead
on any projects, or were you the

spearhead of any projects prior
to coming to this space?

Were you the head person that
was pushing it forward, or is

the what you're doing with
bright moments?

Is this your first attempt at
leading the charge for that?

Speaker 2: No, I was.

Before I left my job, I was a
design director for Tiers.

I was leading a department and
overseeing a lot.

Speaker 1: Got it Okay.

So you're comfy with that.

Okay, I didn't know, because it
sounds exciting.

But it also sounds like it's
exciting and terrifying at the

same time, where it's just like,
wow, yeah, it's me, yeah.

Speaker 2: It's always a little
bit terrifying, even if you've

done it for 10 years.

It's always a little bit like
how is this all going to get

done?

But it does because it has to,
and that event, mentality or the

deadline is not moving ever at
all for any reason.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really.

I think there's something
special.

Going back to the meditative
aspect, or what is this energy

that unites us all together,
this drive, this feeling that we

can't really describe.

And there's also an
inevitability about certain

things we're kind of like you're
talking about it gets done

because it has to, it gets done
because it's supposed to, and

there's no way it can't get done
.

I think part of that's a
mindset, but I also kind of look

at the way events unfold in the
world and I'm like, some of

them great, some of them not
great, but regardless of the

emotion that tied to the outcome
, a lot of it just like you can

point back to a lot of things
like this definitely needed to

happen, Like for good or for bad
.

It almost just kind of felt
like well, yeah, like how could

it have not happened?

Like that.

I don't know what I'm trying to
say there, but there's this

weird sense of like
inevitability with everything.

Yeah, but yeah, no, I will
definitely be at that event.

Something you talked about is I
think you mentioned designing

conversations or like kind of
like allowing designing around

conversations.

How do you, I guess?

How do you do that?

What does that mean?

Allowing for yeah, is that kind
of like just fostering people

to be in.

Yeah, I guess I'm a little lost
on that, but it made my head

spin because I love
conversations and I love doing

this, so that naturally stuck
out.

Speaker 2: I know I feel like
this event structure is like the

perfect.

It will maybe hopefully feel
like your perfect event.

Yeah, because it's totally
about conversations and

structured around conversations,
and I think there's a lot of

ways to talk about the idea of
designing a conversation.

Actually, I'll talk I'll speak
more to it specifically about

our event, but if you haven't
read this book, you have to read

this book called wait hold on.

The author's name is Priya
Parker and it's called the Art

of Gathering and she doesn't
talk about, like, event design

or production.

She talks about what are ways
that you can inspire certain

kinds of connection in how to
place people in a space.

So like and similar, similar
more things.

But like a couple of examples
that I really love or like it's

it's a totally different
experience to sit three people

across from three people at a
dinner as opposed to two across

from two and have two people on
the ends, because what the

second one does is create a
circle where everyone is more

equal and there's not like these
two lines, and that like

immediately signals this, like
open, this, like a different

kind of like openness and
equality in the conversation,

and even just that teeny move,
like really makes a difference

and I like to dinner with
friends, like I am.

I am the person who's like we
are moving this chair or we are

like all coming closer.

I don't care if we're at a
massive table.

It will.

I promise it will be a better
experience and it's worth it.

Another example she has is like
if you're having a dinner party

, always never pour your own
drink.

It just as a rule, because then
if you're ready for any drink

you have to ask somebody and
it's near pouring somebody's

drink, you automatically look
around and see who else needs a

drink, and part of that is like
politeness.

But a big part of that is also
just like breaking the breaking

the sort of like norms of just
engaging, like like just

blasting open the like potential
lines of connection, just in

like structure of people sitting
.

Oh my God, I could like talk on
and on about all these.

If you're gathering people out
in a park to hang put down a

blanket, because that defines a
space and that makes people feel

like they're entering the space
that you created, even though

you're in an open park.

There's so many cool things in
the book it's really, and a lot

of it is about like facilitating
conversation, and she has done

incredible things Like she's,
like facilitated conversations

in the Middle East between
groups that are, you know,

between opposing groups, and
she's got like I mean, she's

worked with presidents like
she's and Prime Minister, world

leaders, like she's done.

She really has this incredible
sense of like.

How do you get people talking
in a productive or interesting

or connected way?

Speaker 1: I really, yeah, this
is right on my alley for sure.

This is right at me Because I
because it ties back to my first

job well, not my first job, but
my when I worked for a call

center for a legal technology
company and you know I worked in

escalations and I worked in
escalations for like two and a

half three years.

So it's like talking like
literally eight hours a day, of

talking to angry people right,
and not only angry people.

There was like a there was a
positive spin to it.

Outside of that was because you
kind of had full reign to do.

You had full autonomy,
basically, well, you know,

basically full time.

There was a constraint, but it
was a pretty high.

It was.

There was a very big leeway of
like what you you didn't have to

ask permission for anything,
you know.

So you kind of just you were
basically trusted like or if it

needed to get done, it needed to
get done, and it didn't matter

at what expense or like what
resources that needed to be

thrown at it to make it happen.

So that was the.

I guess that was the cool part
is that there was a lot of trust

and I got to learn a lot about,
like, how the business worked,

because you know I needed things
from like different people.

But one of the main things that
I learned there is that nine

I'll probably just like a
hundred percent just sounds to

you can't ever say a hundred
percent, but 99.9% of all

conversations or all
frustrations or escalations is

because of a breakdown in
communication.

At some point it's because
someone either wasn't listening,

the person didn't talk to them
the right way, they didn't talk,

they didn't.

You know they lied.

You know the person lied to
themselves.

You know a lot of different
things that happen in the way we

communicate and it's like there
was at least one to two points

during their interaction with us
as a company that caused this

extreme emotional reaction from
the customer.

You know, and most times I'm
not going to throw out a

percentage, but most times the
simple thought of letting them,

letting them get out whatever
they need to get out, like right

, when they hit your line,
they're just going to start, you

know, doing what they need to
do.

If you interrupt that, you're
never going to get to a solution

.

Number one like they need to
say what they need to say.

Humans need to say that Like if
we don't have that, if it

doesn't get, if it doesn't come
out, it's, it'll stay in and

then most times, simply just
acknowledging what they said and

speaking.

You know, like man, like I
could, I could totally fucking

see that.

You know, like you don't
necessarily agree, but you're

like, you have a lot of valid
reasons to be frustrated.

Something as simple as that
most times would reduce in a

reduction of refunds.

It would improve, you know, the
customer experience and the.

The.

The amount of resources
required to fix it was very

minimal.

It was like a $50 fucking
shipping label or, like you know

, or like some, just something,
a drop in the bucket for a for a

multimillion dollar company,
right, but that.

So one thing I did learn is that
you know communication.

The only reason we get angry is
because we don't feel there was

a breakdown in communication
somewhere.

So I say all that to say
designing around conversations

is really fascinating,
especially in a very digital

world where you know I think we
talked about this earlier where

it's like there's such a lack of
context, like in social media,

in the way we communicate with
each other, there's no nuance.

There's no nuance has fucking
died.

It is gone, it is died and this
is like a great.

I guess this is a refreshing
thing to see.

Is what I'm trying to say?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's
part of why so many things to

say to everything you just said
questions.

I think that's part of why,
like, so many of us are so

hungry for, like, irl gathering
opportunities, because, even

though, like, the medium of our,
of our work is a screen, like,

we're still humans and we want,
we're making things for each

other.

I also wanted to ask you, like,
did that job, do you think that

job like significantly improves
your conversation skills, or is

it?

Is it something that you've
always like felt you?

Speaker 1: had in you.

Well, yes, yes and yes, because
I, kind of looking back to, I

think, you, there was a part of
your story where you're like I,

it was something natural for me
but I wasn't necessarily good at

it yet.

I really, I really resonated
with that Because it took me a

while to really come to be fully
aware of what was it, that kind

of I was good at, or what it
was, what, what came easier to

me than most other people, and
it took me a really long time to

find that, like I played sports
growing up, I had to work twice

as hard than all of my
counterparts to get the same

result or, most of the time,
less video games.

The same way, like education,
like you know, I didn't really

apply myself so I can't really
say anything there, but you know

, most things I had to like I
had to try so much harder and I

was like what is it that?

Like what is that thing?

Do I just not have it?

Do I just like what is it?

And it was after that, it was
once I started this journey,

that I realized that, oh, it
took me 30 years to figure it

out, or it took me 27 years to
figure it out, but conversations

are what I'm good at, I think.

I think working that job to
answer your question more

directly working that job helped
kind of pull it out of me.

It helped me realize that.

It helped me be fully aware of
like, oh, like.

And then I went for a state.

There was a period where I was
like well, it's calm.

Is being a conversationalist
really?

That like valuable skill Like
that just seems pretty fucking

boring.

Like I'm not, like you know, I
don't have like the.

You know what I mean.

But the older I've got I'm like
oh, this is actually, this is

actually really good.

Like this is a good thing, you
know this.

I'm really glad I have this.

Speaker 2: So, to answer your
question, especially when you

realize that so many people
struggle with it.

Speaker 1: I didn't know that
that was the one part to talk.

I didn't know that and I'm like
it felt so natural and easy for

me.

I'm like, wait, other people
struggle with this.

Speaker 2: That was when it hit
me, so anyway, sorry, Do you

this is a personal question
answer or don't?

Do you ever feel social anxiety
or conversational anxiety?

Speaker 1: Yes, yes, um, and I
love that you went here, because

I think I wanted to go here but
I got lost in a tangent Um.

So, yes, I am very good in
small gatherings, like.

I'm very good in small
gatherings with the right, with,

like with people.

I'm genuinely interested in Um
and, ironically enough, I'll go.

I'll take it a step further.

You know, even before I got
sober, uh, you know, I've been

sober for 10 years and even
before I got sober, I never

enjoyed big parties, never
enjoyed them.

I just it was too overwhelming,
uh, the, the, the quality of

conversation.

Now, granted, most people were
wasted, but before people got

wasted, the quality of
conversation is just naturally

lessened.

With more people, you just
can't there's nothing, you can't

have really engaging meaningful
dialogue with people when

there's like 60 people in a room
, you know, or like, you can't

have that with everybody, and
I'm the type of person who wants

to have that with every single
person that I talk to.

And so I I I may be attended
five total like big parties in

my entire life.

You know, before I get sober,
most of them were like three to

five people and their people I
knew and their people like I

wanted to be around this.

The second part of that was
like, I also consumed a lot more

than most and I knew around
that these people I wouldn't

feel judged for doing so.

Um, I, the quantity and I guess
the depth and the breadth of my

consumption was a little bit
different um, that most people

would be, you know they, they
would definitely think about me

a certain way.

Uh, so, to answer your question,
it's one of my.

I love talking about this
because it's uh, that's why I do

so well in one to one Um, and
that's why, even in spaces

you'll kind of see and I'll
share this uh on the podcast but

, like you'll, and especially in
the Y art space, fungi will

always uh do the intro because
it's just what he's, he's really

good at that and he does a
great job.

I handle the artist interview
and then when we start bringing

up people to to ask questions to
the artists, you'll notice he

kind of takes the lead on that,
because that part gets really

nerve wracking to me when
there's like a lot of people and

are they all commenting on the
same part of the conversation

and you know how do you choose,
you know which one to go next,

and for the most part it's.

We've curated a really great
vibe where people, people follow

it, um, but it still takes work
every time and it just it makes

me so nervous.

I just don't like it.

Um, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: There's something
about like a one on one

conversation, that's like the
most present kind of

conversation, Like if there's
three people then it's easier to

kind of like look at your phone
for a second or or you know,

like the pay a little bit less
attention or not be sure.

Like like is the pie being
divided in three way through,

the conversational pie being
divided equally?

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it's, it's
fascinating, uh, and so it

makes events like NFT and YC,
like I, you know, and Marfa and

all these other events like
physical, like some of these

just high popular, like high, uh
, like highly densely you know,

just densely populated events.

It can be really overwhelming
for me because, you know, I also

, uh, it's also my job to meet
as many people as I as I

possibly can, and it's not I say
that it's my job, it's like I

genuinely want to, like there's
just so many interesting people

here and I find that we just
don't have enough time to do

that, um, and so I have to
really train myself to be like

10 to 20 minutes spurts.

How, what can I talk about for
10 to 20 minutes with a lot of

different people, you know, and
it's really hard for me to do

that, like I do it, but it's
really hard for me to not do

something like this, you know,
because when we have a BNB and

we have a bunch of people, I'll
get lost talking to someone for

two hours on the couch, you know
.

Um, that's my vibe.

Speaker 2: Well, that's not a
bad thing.

So then you've had I mean, you
know, I get to find the people

at the party that want to do
that too, and then prepares.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: And if there's no one
that wants to do that, there's

usually a dog, and that's
usually the the, the one that I

hang out with.

That's usually.

It's usually my vibe.

Um, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So it's, it's, it's
really good.

Um, we've covered, like, quite
a few different different things

.

We covered, you know, your
design.

We've covered some generative
art.

We've covered, um, we've
covered the physical events.

I mean, there's a lot of
different things that we've

talked about here.

Um, I guess, like you know one,
I guess interesting thing is

kind of like moving forward to
the future.

We're going to do a little
meditation on the future now.

Um, you know, what is it that,
I guess, what is it that you, I

guess, do you have a vision, or
is there a want, or is there a?

Is there a want to want For
this space in the next, like one

to two years?

That you're not saying no?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there
there is, and it's also a

complicated answer.

I think like the first big thing
that comes to mind is I feel

like there are so many people
out there who would love what we

are doing and to find some,
find their own voice within it

and benefit from it in some ways
and create within it.

But I but like even just saying
within it like Clarifies for me

how it feels right now, which
is very much like this circle of

people and possibility, and I
want there to be a way to like

break that circular wall down
and have it be easier for people

who are out there who I think,
like just by happened, like I

came into the space of it by
happenstance, and that could

happen to other people.

It's just they haven't happened
upon the stance.

And I would like to see I don't
know what this is Like.

I don't know if it's like
better tech or UI or like

Processes, or if it's just like
more outreach or like well, I

don't, I don't know what the
structure is, but I would like

to like see more of those people
find it.

Yeah yeah, I think and I you
know I'm not saying that I want

like 3000 people to be in Marfa
next year, but like me, I don't

know, like I want three thousand
people to want to be in Marfa.

I don't know, I don't know.

I mean, probably there were
people that want to be in Marfa,

okay, but Totally.

Speaker 1: Yeah, there's an
element of like I think you

touched on at the end.

There's something really
important.

Is it?

Like?

There's part of it that still
feels really special because

there's not a lot of people and
I really like that, you know I.

There's part of me that really
enjoys the closeness.

It really enjoys like Like wow,
you're just as insane as I am.

Or, like you know, you are.

Like you know, there's just a
lot of, there's a lot of parts

that are great about it, but
like, we have to like face a

Face, a reality of like, if we
want to keep doing this.

Like it does have to grow, it
does have to expand, and I think

that there's there's a lot of
thoughtful ways.

But I'm kind of with you.

One thing that I've thought
about as well I've actually gone

back on it.

One thing I originally thought
was like you know, we need now

it's not that it's not true, but
I think it's just a different

focus is like, yeah, we do need
better UX and UI, like crypto is

just like we're not.

That's not one of our strong
points, you know, it's just not.

It's kind of like it's the
argument that I make to people

against that.

Is that like when the iPhone
first came out, like it was kind

of clunky, like it did you know
for even before that.

Let's just go even back to like
the Motorola phones.

You know they were, they were
clunky but they were functional.

You had to like want to use it.

You had to like want to like
figure it out.

Same thing with the internet
like remember when people like

didn't know what a blog was, or
people figuring out email, or

like my mother even being
comfortable with putting her

credit card in online to make an
online purchase.

You know, some of these things
were just Right.

Think about it.

It's just these are really
clunky things, but people that

wanted to use them use them and
eventually they got more adopted

and they got better.

You know, and I'm like, well,
so we did.

Do we just have to?

This is like a I'm gonna say
this nicely, but do we just have

to optimize for a non-critical
thinker, you know?

Do we have to optimize for
someone who doesn't have, you

know, doesn't have, like there,
like doesn't you know what

they're like?

You know what I mean?

Like someone who doesn't really
know how to think for

themselves, you know, which is,
I feel like, what a lot of

people do ever.

Everyone just wants things
taken care of for it.

Right now, like, no one really
knows how to critically think

anymore, or I guess there's
fewer people that do.

But then I'm, like you know,
I'm a huge you know, a huge

Christopher Nolan fan, and
Something that he always assumes

is that his audience is really
smart, like he always makes an

assumption when he makes a film.

That's why any film that he
makes, it's it's not like a one.

You can just look at your phone
Three times or four times in

the middle of it and like you
have to be there, you have to be

present with it, you have to be
watching, you have to like not

have any distractions To fully
pick up on all the nuances that

he puts in.

And I think it's because of
that assumption that he assumes

that the people that are gonna
like his films are smart.

Crypto is like like self.

Just eliminate crypto.

Self-cosity is a really hard
concept and a really Like

challenging one, if I'm being
honest, to to like wrap your

head around, because it's just
like well, fuck, if I lose this

12 word phrase, I'm completely
fucked and there's no way to get

it back.

That's.

That's a pretty hard concept.

It's like wrap your mind around
and you have to almost make the

assumption if we're fighting
for an option of self custody,

like I'm going on a tangent here
.

But it's like I don't think
crypto is only self custody.

Like I, you know us that are
here in the beginning, I think

we're all most mostly self
custody maxis, but the reality

is that that's not what most of
the people want.

There needs to be varying
levels of custody and I think

that is like what allows people
to come on board, because to me,

crypto represents options.

Before this self custody wasn't
a thing and now it's a thing,

and so it can still be a thing
and we can still build products

around it that require Less of
that.

I know ledger got like really
flamed and I was one of them.

Like when they, when they
announced they're like oh yeah,

you can like recover your key is
C phrase.

Like You're like no, that's
like the whole, like it's all

we're trying to do, but For a
good probably 40 to 50 percent

of people, they be comfy with
that.

Speaker 2: I.

Speaker 1: Don't know, yeah, and
so we just have to assume that.

It's like, we have to assume
that people are smart, coming in

here.

Speaker 2: Right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think I would add to that
that, like it's, it takes a

certain amount of Critical
thinking.

I also think it takes certain
on Italian, like I hear people

all the time say you know they,
are they full-time in crypto?

No, but they wish they only.

If only they could put their
job, they'd be able to be so

much more invested.

Because it takes so much time
totally even keep up takes time.

Yeah, I think you.

I think you said that also.

Well, there's, so I yeah.

Maybe the answer is like there
needs to be more like

variability and like and like in
commitment or something Like

more tier possibility.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think
there needs to be yeah, cuz it's

like if you because think about
when someone tells you you have

to do it this way, what's your
natural reaction?

Like?

Speaker 2: Right or like?

Why?

Why not?

Reaction is like?

Why?

Speaker 1: exactly like why.

You know why, why do I have to
do it like that?

You know what, if I want to do
it like this and I think that we

can build for Things like that
allow people to do it, to do

what they want to do at
different levels that are comfy

to them.

You know Also I mean you could
add on to this that I think the

I was I was more bullish on
Ethereum than Bitcoin when I

first came in here.

But after seeing, like Canada
freezing people's bank accounts

during the COVID thing, that's
what Bitcoin really made sense.

And I'm like, oh, like these
people like Bitcoin, the Bitcoin

community is crazy and they're
I.

It's just I can't standing
around them, but that's if they

have a point.

Some of them have a point.

I've come to that conclusion.

I'm like that makes sense.

Speaker 2: Now you know the
government can just push a

button and pause your funds.

Speaker 1: That's scary, like
that's really terrifying.

Think about like freedom of
expression is directly tied to

freedom to transact.

Speaker 2: Wow, yeah, no crazy
relationship, but it's true and

I think, like I mean, here in
the US we don't, we have the

luxury of not really worrying
about that, even though anything

is possible and of course
there's like historic examples

of it.

But totally, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Kind of along the
same beat, as we probably start

to wrap it wrap it up soon I'm
very curious to know your, your

family's, relationship to what
you do.

Have they?

What do they think about it
today?

Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great
question.

I'm gonna ask you the same
thing to him.

They're like supportive and
happy and that I'm happy and

they definitely recognize that
it's it's positive and it's

exciting and there's possibility
and opportunity and wonderful

community.

My dad's an accountant so he's
like curious about it from that

perspective and my mom is.

Overall really supportive and
like kind of gets into it like

she.

You know she's like, well, like
, how's Tyler Hobbes doing these

days?

Like my, I don't, I don't, like
I'm excited I see him.

But that's like her point of
reference because you know, he's

was so big and is so big and
was so big in the beginning and

right Was a big part of my entry
into into like this, this

Definition of generative art.

But then, like I love talking
to my grandma about it because

she's always like, how's the art
stuff?

My god, I hope she doesn't
listen to this I love her, but I

think she's like I love her but
she's just like has no idea but

is like still Supportive.

I feel lucky.

They're all generally very
supportive.

Speaker 1: I like that.

That's great, I mean it's, it's
cool.

Like I, my parents have
definitely come Full circle a

little bit.

In the beginning, they were
like dude, what are you doing?

Like they're like you're.

You're like spending all this
money on like computer parts and

like stuff to, like you know,
make content, but you're like

not making any money.

Like you know you're doing this
for free.

You're kind of on this crusader
mission, you know you're.

At the time especially, I was
just like not making good

financial decisions as a whole.

There was just no filter.

There was just, I see it, I
wanted to buy it.

It didn't matter if I had the
money or not, you know.

And there was a lot of things
when they were like kind of

questioning you know my sanity
and they're like, yeah, I don't

really know and you can't really
describe what is that you do

either.

So we don't really how can we
be confident in that?

But today, you know, I think
there was a couple things that

happened was Number one, I made
a really good trade in 2022.

And number two, I used it to
like wipe out a couple credit

cards and they were like, oh
okay.

So he made a good trade and he
started like doing something

responsible and that was when
they started to like see, like,

oh, he's making money and he's
growing as a human, it.

That's when my mom started
asking questions.

That's when she started to like
loosen up a little bit on the

on, on the, on the question
asking and the, the, the kind of

just overall sentiment.

But now my mom has a wallet and
she supports she has supported

both of our seasons of media for
Schiller, and that usually just

means she sends me the money
and I transact it and send it to

her wallet.

That's okay.

So it's really cool.

And she, her, her thought is,
if she's like I still outside of

, she's like I understand what
you do and she's like this, what

you do makes sense, which I'm
like, okay, that's a huge win,

like that is a huge win.

She's like all the other stuff I
just you know, like the, the

token trading and the gaming,
and that I just don't understand

any of that.

It's like that's the beauty of
this is that you don't have to.

If you understand one part,
you'll learn about the whole

ecosystem through that one Lens,
you know, and you won't learn

it all at once.

You'll learn it at the pace you
want to.

But she was like you know, if
my, if our financial advisor

comes, you know, in five, ten
years and says, hey, you need to

diversify your portfolio Into
these tokens, she's like I just

don't want to start from square
one when that happens.

I want to like, at least know
why he's telling, telling us

this, or at least a general idea
of, like, the value of it.

I don't want to start from
square one.

And understanding a wallet and
understanding keys and

understanding, you know, proof
of work and understanding

Censorship resistant, you know
all these different things,

right, so that's her perspective
.

But full circle, that is still
like how's the Bitcoin doing,

you know, kind of thing.

So Love that, love that question
yeah it's a great question, to

be honest, it's a great question
.

Well, let's, let's, let's start
wrapping this up and end this

on a note with I guess you know
this what podcasts will not make

it in time for twos, but after
twos, is there anything else

generative or any other projects
that you're excited about, that

you're working on?

Speaker 2: Oh, yes, this is the
first time I'm really talking

about this tragedy, even though
it's coming up quite fast.

Just haven't focused on it
outwardly.

But Tender art Is doing or show
in an untitled art fair in

Miami in partnership with verse
works.

Verse and it's a focus of the
show is like physical

manifestations of Generative art
and I'm working on a project

using letter for us for that.

So it's sort of generate
generative letter for us.

So that's probably like the most
immediate thing after twos in

early December and then, yeah,
there's about like eight other

things going on but I need to
kind of get my head around and

and Figure out what.

What's what over the next, like
probably seven months.

Yeah, a couple, a couple shows
and drops that I'm maybe not

quite ready to talk about, but
you know, I mean a big, such a

huge thing on my horizon right
now is I'm just like planning

and designing you kind of
managing art, managing Paris,

right, woman's Paris.

So, yeah, lots of and token art
and planning token art for

April which I'll send you.

So I'll send you this, the sort
of soft save the day for that

but yeah, lots, lots of fun
stuff coming up.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Are you gonna be in Miami?

Speaker 2: Yeah, are you.

Speaker 1: I will yeah, yes, yes
, yes, yes.

I'll share some more details on
that, but yeah, we will be.

I Think the whole show recruits
gonna be there, all seven of us

.

So, yeah, we got a really big
B&B.

We're very excited about it.

We have a lot of fun stuff
planned.

So, yeah, definitely, well, I
mean Well, I'm excited for, like

, you already got me so high for
April.

Um, so Very excited about that.

Emily, this has been awesome.

Thanks for coming on and doing
this.

I really, really I I really
enjoyed this chat.

Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.

You are so easy and wonderful
to talk to you and I really just

appreciate the opportunity to
like get deep into Subjects that

I think a lot about but, like
you know, they don't always fit

in, like the, the artist
description, so it's a real

pleasure, thank you.

Speaker 1: You're very welcome.

Yeah, I mean, it's there's.

There's only so many characters
on Twitter.

You know Um as well, so, yeah,
incredible, I guess.

Lastly, you know, where should
people like?

If people want to learn more
about you, your work, where do

they?

Where do you want people to go
first?

Speaker 2: My website cool, I'm
pretty, I'm pretty good about

keeping my website like super
up-to-date and, I think,

hopefully organized and clear
and there's some fun hidden gems

throughout it and to like
hidden, hidden links and stuff.

So that's Emily Edelman, doc.

Oh, love it, but my Twitter is
always, you know, I keep that

pretty up-to-date too.

Speaker 1: Yes, yes, absolutely.

Well, hang out for just a
little bit.

We'll let this finish uploading
.

Um, but yeah, this has been
Incredible and yeah, have a

great rest of your day.

Speaker 2: Thanks you too.

I'll see you when I'm here,
Can't wait.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Schiller

curated podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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Once again, thank you for
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looking for it.

Art is everywhere and it's up
to us to appreciate and explore

the emotions it brings to our
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Until next time, this is Boona
signing off.