Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to Vaulted, a

Web3 podcast series from the
Shiller Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on June 13, 2022 and

features John Knopf, a
self-taught lens-based artist

and community builder.

In this episode, we discuss
John's intro to photography, the

struggles of being a
photographer prior to Web3, the

importance of self-sovereignty,
valuing your art and so much

more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest, my own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with John Cool man.

Gm John, how?

Speaker 2: are you, man, good,
good, good, gm, gm, GM I love

your show man Great band.

Speaker 1: There's not many
things that I'll argue without

logic and tools.

One of them Some people.

It's like football.

No matter how logical of an
argument you'll present them

with, football, it's never going
to click, because it's just

never going to click.

I still stand behind tool being
the best band in the entire

history of this universe, and
that cannot be out.

That's the one thing I will
never.

I'll die on the hill.

Speaker 2: I'll die on the hill.

Seriously, top five.

Like Tool, pink Floyd, I have
to agree Tool is one of the best

.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to
deny it.

I've never put this way, man.

Their last album took 13 years
to create, and even before then.

You just never get tired of
their old music.

It just grows and evolves and
you find new meaning to it.

I've never met another band or
any musician that's been able to

do that for me.

I love that.

Speaker 2: I love that man.

When you connect to the art,
there's nothing like it.

Nothing like it.

Speaker 1: I'll say, man, if
there's any one ridiculously

crazy goal and I don't know if
Tool will ever create an NFT,

but, man, I would probably
literally sell my soul for that.

That's one of the few things
that I could say.

You know what?

Whatever utility they provide,
whether it's access to behind

the scenes catalogs or ownership
rights to some of their music

or whatever the case may be it
could be the simplest thing that

they offer, and I'm just going
to be like here's my entire life

savings habit.

It's like the only thing I'm
like that for.

Speaker 2: So good.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Yeah, man.

Well, we're not here to talk
about Tool, even though I could,

for a long time I could have a
Tool podcast.

Speaker 2: I mean we could, we
could all day.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we could, but
we're here for you, man.

John, it's a pleasure to have
you on.

I've been following you for a
long time in the NFT space, as

we mentioned.

Offline.

I got on boarded to you and
your work and, quite honestly, a

lot of other incredible
photographers through the photo

token fund or token I don't know
if that's the right word but

just the photo community.

Yeah, yeah, whatever, that
photo thing is where I got to

own a fraction of your work.

That was where I got on boarded
through you all Whatever

doesn't violate any regulations.

That's right.

I don't know how those NFTs got
my wallet.

They just got airdropped.

I can't I don't know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I have no idea
what you're talking about.

Speaker 1: It's all internet
monopoly money.

I don't have no that's right.

Like these tokens don't
actually have images on them,

they just point to images.

So I, it's all magical internet
money.

That's right, man.

Well, john, for those who don't
know you man, who are you?

What do you do?

Let's give a quick intro.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, hi, I'm
John Nuff.

I'm a landscape photographer.

I've been shooting photography
for the last 15 years of my life

.

I basically made primarily my
income on print sales and

photography.

I've owned two galleries in the
last 15 years and got into NFTs

about a year and a half ago and
got super obsessed with getting

photography onto the blockchain
.

I was one of the first
photographers to make my work on

the blockchain, as photography
is just still imagery.

Yeah, I've just been pushing
for artists to value their work

and pushing forward events and
just trying to onboard artists

and just preaching inclusivity
and just I don't know so many

things.

I think that encompass what has
happened.

15 years has been the journey,
but the last year and a half has

just been a mad rush of just
wildness.

All I can say is I feel like I
took mushrooms a year and a half

ago and I haven't woken up
since.

Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of
your stories around the board

eight minute.

We may spare that for this
podcast, but all I know is that

was a wild couple of months for
y'all.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a
wild story, definitely.

Maybe we'll spare for the next
one for a share.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, 100%, but
dude.

So one of the things that I
like to, something that I like

to know is you've been selling
prints up until the Web 3 space,

and I'm sure you probably do
still sell prints, but when it

came to before that, I want to
go back a little bit into your

history, if you don't mind.

The only question I typically
like to ask most photographers

is when was it known to you that
this was something you really

enjoyed?

When was that moment?

Or was there an aha moment, or
did it take time?

Was it just gradual?

Was it sudden?

I like to know that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good
question.

I've talked to a lot of artists
and I always say, when I became

an artist and people always say
to me well, you don't become an

artist too, or you're born an
artist.

But actually I became one
because I looked back at my

photos and stuff like that and
my journey throughout life and I

see I've taken lots of photos
like landscape photos when I was

out fishing or like I used to
ride quads when I was a kid so

I'd go off on journeys hundreds
of miles by myself and just go

shoot photos with a throwaway
camera.

Looking back at this, it was
always ingrained in me.

I just don't think I understood
how much I really enjoyed it

because I was so I was kind of
lost as a kid.

I grew up with a graduating
with a 1.8 GPA.

I was terrible in school.

My mom was basically in prison
most of my life.

My dad was really never there.

I grew up in this comfort of
chaos.

I think when I got older and
really put a lens to my face and

I think it wasn't until I was
probably like 24 or 25 that I

really realized how badly I
wanted to do this.

I was working at a car lot
managing it, sales, internet,

literally everything.

Dude, general men, all these
different locations.

One of them was internet
manager, where I took photos of

the cars.

This was some shit that I
enjoyed, that I would take all

day.

I didn't want to sell cars, I
didn't want to deal with people.

I was digging the vibe of going
to cars, soaking the ground,

soaking wet and making the
reflections.

I went all out.

Dude.

Our website was badass.

Out of all the car lots and
sandals to BISPO.

Our website kicked ass.

I got obsessed with taking
these photos of this car.

When you're living in Central
California, like the Central

Coast, a lot of people just go
to Big Sur for their birthdays

and camping and stuff like that.

I ended up on a trip to Big Sur
and I took the camera from the

dealership.

Don't tell anyone that probably
I took the camera from the

dealership that we gave and shot
all over Big Sur.

I brought it back, by the way.

I gave it back.

I shot all over.

Big Sur and got all these images
and I was like dude, I really

enjoyed this.

When I got back, I remember my
manager had said to me not the

manager, the owner At the time I
was the general manager

everything the owner said to me
hey, can you go detail this car?

I was like shit, dude, I don't
really make this much money and

I don't really like what I do.

Anyway, I had that moment of
clarity where I was like I

really like taking photos and
people said I'm good at this,

I'm going to quit.

I looked at him and I was like
I don't think you can afford me

anymore.

I was like I really enjoy this
job, yeah, but I don't think you

can afford me anymore.

I think it's time you let me go
.

He fired me so I could get
unemployment because I put it in

the you can't afford me kind of
thing.

He's like okay, you're probably
right.

He let me go.

I collected employment and
literally that was the year of

2007 or 2008 when the crash
happened in the recession we got

that crazy Obama unemployment
money, yeah yeah.

So it was like legit.

It was, like, you know, like
600 bucks a week.

So I was like, dude, I'm going
to use my savings and I'm going

to start traveling and using
this money to travel and take

photos.

So I got obsessed and I went to
like Hawaii and Yosemite and

like just all the good spots.

But I had like that moment, I
think, when, like at the car lab

, when I quit my job, that it
was like I want to do this for a

living, even if it means that I
never sell anything and I just

like live out of my car, being
homeless.

I would rather do this than
live for the weekends and have

to shoot big sir on a Saturday.

I want to do this every day.

And like I just wasn't happy,
dude, and this, these like

chasing this made me happy and
it was fun again and it brought

back all the things, all the
reasons that I've been fired

from every job growing up, and I
was like this encompasses who I

am.

It was everything.

That was my moment.

Speaker 1: I love that dude and
you and you and Kath actually

have a very similar story with
how you all like, with how

you're kind of like, with how
you found yourself.

Like Kath, like you know, I
remember when she quit her job

and she like went live in her
car for like a couple of years

and like just like drove and
took pictures and did shit.

I'm like that's, that was
really cool.

Speaker 2: I it was fun, dude.

Yeah, I mean.

You know, I don't think I've
ever had more fun in my life

than having nothing to my name
and no direction whatsoever,

Living camping on beaches in
Hawaii because I ran out of

money for the hotel that was
camping on beaches in Grenada.

Because it's like, well, I'm
out of money and I might get

killed on this beach, but I need
to get the shot.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

See, this is, this is the shit
that I like I never got to hear

before I started interviewing.

You know, interviewing
photographers, that like that.

You know, like I don't think
people fully realize, like a lot

of people that are successful
here and a lot of people that

make it, or a lot of people that
it's like it's not necessarily

the fact that, like you're just
consistently show up, it's the

willingness to like, it's the
willingness to essentially live

out of a van or live somewhere
else to do what exactly it is

that you want to do.

You know what I mean and even
though that's not, that may

happen short term, like in it,
but it's never a long term

scenario because it's been, it's
been my experience that the

more, the more you chase that
thing that people think you're

really stupid for chasing, is
that the more the universe

rewards you.

You know tenfold, whenever you,
whenever you consistently do it

and you figure it out, you know
what I mean, that's what I

found is persistence is the key,
I think, to art, to creating,

to everything.

Speaker 2: It's literally just
sticking with it and when you're

about to give up, like just
keep going.

Because I found, like dude, do
you know how many times I've

wanted to give up?

Like I mean even this year,
three months ago, when I went to

go take my photo down
Huntington Beach, the whole way

home ball in tears because I
thought I had lost it.

Like I thought I couldn't find
my way to create.

I've been on spaces for a year
talking about creating and then

I had completely lost myself.

And I remember, just down the
hallway to home, like talking to

my wife, just like maybe I'm
not a photographer, like maybe I

wasn't meant to do this, maybe
I got into this just because,

you know, it was like an escape
of chaos and now that I'm

comfortable and happy and have a
family, I can't create anymore.

Like it was this big, like
juxtaposition of, like what am I

going to do with my life?

And it's like these key moments
.

So that, like I got home I
threw that picture up on my

screen and I was like, oh yeah,
I still got it.

Hell yeah, I still got it.

This is dope.

Like because I do, I just bought
a $85,000 camera.

Like that's not something I
really was ready to be buying.

Like but I sold an ape and I'm
like I'm reinvesting.

I'm buying my house and I'm
reinvesting in myself.

You know, like if I have a
house, I own my car, I own my

camera.

The rest of the money is
fucking money.

That's how I see it so I can
create.

So I was like, dude, buying my
dream camera I'm not buying my

Sony and not buying a can, I'm
buying my phase one.

And when I bought it I was so
scared dude, that's a lot of

money.

And then when I created with it
and didn't get what I wanted, I

was like I suck.

It was like imposter syndrome,
because I mean, dude, look at

this space and the creators and
the artists and the

photographers.

When I got in, there was no
Instagram, there was no

competition.

The only competition I had was
Peter, like, that was it.

That was my only competition in
the world that I knew of.

Like it just it was.

It was non-existent.

Dude, I was opening gallery in
Vegas.

There was nobody else competing
with me.

So it was like I just like was
in my own cloud and bubble,

thinking that was it Like.

And then I come into the space
and I'm like, holy shit, there

are some just unbelievable art,
like photographers that just

blow my fucking mind, man.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, dude,
it's, that's, that's.

I think the thing that
attracted me most to this space

was that, just the sheer level
of brainpower from all areas,

whether it's whether it's
photography, glitch art,

generative art, coders,
developers you know like just

the amount of brainpower that I
found or that I tapped into when

I first came here.

I'm like this is something man
Like.

There is no way this many
talented and creative people

like are all in one spot.

There's got to be something to
this.

You know what I mean when I
first saw Kat's work oh my God.

Speaker 2: And then she told me
what she was like.

She showed me her website and
told me she was selling stuff

for it.

I was like yo, you're about to
steal the Peter Lick model.

Like I'm about to teach you
everything about galleries and

business and how this stuff is
really approached, and like

you're going to make some insane
money because your work blows

like 99% of the people I've seen
away.

Like I was just so, just yeah.

I remember when I first followed
on club I should like 400

followers and she would never
talk on stages.

And then the first time she
talked with her crazy accent, I

was like oh my God, she's got a
crazy accent.

Like this girl is literally a
pit of me of like a photographer

, like everything she does.

I was like the landscape
dedication.

I was like she, she's like
female version of me.

Like we became such good
friends.

Like are we twins?

Like like we became such good
friends because of like we

shared that like common interest
, of like.

I remember like I'm sure we're
not to be like well, do we DM

collectors?

And I'm like I don't know what
we do.

I'm like this space is so new.

Like we were seeing like some
photographers just selling their

work for stupid amounts and
we're just like, what are we

doing wrong?

Like we had to like really
figure, like because, like you

know, it was like a lot of shit
that we had to figure out.

And just I remember us going
we're not lowering our prices,

that's no matter what.

What it comes down to is.

Yeah, I'm not going to
sacrifice our prices because

people are collecting our work,
like we're not sure to make

sales, like it's nice, that's
dope, but we were here to have

fun.

Like that was what we all
showed up to clubhouse for when

the beginning, the art, you're
all here for the art.

That was it.

Do?

We were all broke in the middle
of pandemic, lonely as fuck, and

the only thing we had was an
audio chat.

Even with a family, we were
still lonely because we were

stuck at home, like there was
just nothing.

So it was like this audio chat
and the art, that's what saved

it.

That's why I like, I say like
it's not that the like, I do

believe like artists really kind
of like they're undervalued,

man, like you know, musicians,
entertainers that's what

provided our sanity during the
pandemic.

Yep, yep, 100% Like without our
music, musician, comedy, all of

it.

Without that, we would have
lost our shit.

Man, that was the most
important thing that got us

through the pandemic.

So it's like looking at that
these people need to be paid for

what they've created and what
they have done.

They got you through a pandemic
.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you,
dude, like I got, I got a lot of

thoughts on that man.

I have a like, you touched on a
lot of things that I've said in

bits and pieces in certain you
know chats whether it's offline

or on here, whatever the case
may be is that I've had.

I had this epiphany that, you
know, the more people I started

interviewing, I'm like the, and
I started looking at everything

completely different.

Like I look at my desk, or my
keyboard or my computer, I look

at my TV or the art of my wall.

Like everything, whether it's,
like you know, pure art or or

it's just like a utility, like
desk, everything has an artistic

design to it.

Everyone has a thought.

Like, everything has a thought
process, everything has some

sort of creativity built into it
.

You know what I mean.

And I started looking at art in
a different way.

I'm like, why is art and
creative so undervalued?

Because, like, everything is
created by an artist, like, even

if it's just the TV or the wall
or whatever the case may be.

Speaker 2: I think it's because
it's so abundant, like you know,

it's everywhere.

It's like, you know,
hairdressers and artists, like

everywhere is art.

So it's like with something
that's so like if you go to a

car show, right, and you see
10,000 Ferrari's, you kind of

get bored and the next Ferrari
you see is like cool, there's

another Ferrari.

But let's say you're downtown
LA and you see a Ferrari, you're

like, oh my God, there's a
Ferrari.

You know I like to take
pictures and shit of that.

It's like, you know, it's just
like when you see a bunch of

beautiful things at once, I feel
like it almost just becomes

like it's taken for granted.

And it's unfortunate because
there are so many creators that

create beautiful things, but it
is very much taken for granted.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think
that's one of the fascinating

parts about this industry is
that this whole you can call it

like I mean there's a lot of
things that Web3 is, and one of

those is a movement and a shift,
or like a shift in thinking and

a shift in the like, a paradigm
shift in the way we think about

creatives, and so that's the
thing I've noticed is that, you

know, I'm a fan of and versus,
or is like okay, we don't need

to silo people off.

This is not a space for just
one person, one creative, and

not brands like.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's
kind of.

I feel like the Web3, like it's
all about, like you know,

inequality in the marketplace
and you know, not everybody is

like good at marketing their own
art.

Not everyone's a salesman Like
most artists are.

You know, most artists are
actually really terrible

business.

That's why they're artists.

So I think you're seeing like a
paradigm shift of how art is

being monetized and you're
seeing, you know, a

revolutionary like era where
artists are buying other artists

work, which has never happened.

You know it's like right, we've
ever seen artists supporting

other artists like this in
history?

It's just it's always been
competition and so, like this

whole like community vibe, as
much as there are people who

dislike it, it is the reason
that this exists is because of

the retweets theme, the we've
been sold this line that you

know, exposure is going to pay
our bills for, like the last,

however long we've been involved
in creating and the web three

space kind of feeds the
narrative that you don't

necessarily have to give up
value for exposure or work for

free.

It allows creators to get
exposure without just

sacrificing.

You know everything.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, dude, I
mean, that's the nail on the

head, man.

And I'll tell you, I joined the
web two space in a very mature.

I started creating, you know,
just Twitch content, video game

streaming and a very mature web
two.

And I just remember thinking to
myself there's got to be

another way to do this.

Like this, does it?

Like?

Even even though, like my, my
creativity is a little bit

different than like photography
or drawing, or you know what are

the cases, maybe just creating
content.

It just felt like if you didn't
subscribe to one thing, then you

were wrong.

If you like, the way you
monetize your content was like

the slice of the pie was getting
smaller and smaller and smaller

, and what everyone was
competing for was is almost

becoming non-existent.

You know what I mean, like a
ninja, or attend the tap man, or

like you know, like some of the
, some of these creators who

have, like, clearly driven a lot
of value to their communities,

and I just remember thinking
like this is really fucking

depressing, like, like there's
got to be another way for people

to actually create authentic
and genuine content and get

properly monetized for it.

So I'm over here investing
thousands of dollars in this

equipment and trying to do the
best I can and it's getting

overshadowed by someone who's
doing half the work.

You know what I mean and just
because, like, I'm too scared to

like really say what I want to
say and create how I want to

create and being on the wrong
side of it.

You know what I mean and so
it's not to dive into like my

journey here, but it just it was
a.

That was like my moment where I,
like, when I found this space,

I'm like, holy shit, like this
isn't open canvas, this isn't

open.

Like I can do whatever the hell
I want to do here.

You know what I mean and I can
express my.

I can express my creativity the
way I want to.

So, like on that note, like
what was like that?

How did you like really find
this in transition?

Were you like just like
searching through apps and like

found clubhouse?

Was there an artist that, like
you, gravitated towards to get

on clubhouse?

Like find this space?

Like, how was like, how did
that work?

Speaker 2: Well, in spite of
what you said about I want to be

able to create and say what I
want to say, and that's going to

give me like the real, you know
, like it will validate me for

myself and I think like that's
so important.

And crypto you know, like a lot
of people believe that crypto is

about decentralization and
that's like the primary goal of

crypto or like you know, and
that's not, it's self

sovereignty and, like you just
said, I want to be able to say

what I want to say and create
what I want to say.

Well, that's what self
sovereignty allows.

You know, it's not about
selfishness, it's not about just

me taking care of myself.

Self sovereignty allows
financial independence, which

allows you to own your own
assets, which allows you to take

ownership of your own narrative
, which means that you can say

what you want to say, you can
create what you want to create,

and that's what self sovereignty
means is like when you have the

financial independence to
create what you want to create

liberally.

That's a game changer and
that's what web three is so like

.

I just wanted to touch on that
because that's so important that

what web three really is about
it's not anarchy, it's self

sovereignty.

Speaker 1: I like that you
brought that point up.

I really do, because it's like
you know, because the platforms

that we create on and even you
know to some extent like we're

building the plane as we're
flying it, but you know, it's

like being at the mercy of
Twitch and like that

monetization model being at the
mercy of YouTube and that

monetization model Like there
was a recent report done, you

know, like Love and Merhaitum,
like I'm a big fan of Mark

Andreessen and Chris and what
A16Z is doing, you know, with a

lot of their mental models and
their thought process behind

what they're looking at.

They actually did a study where
it showed the amount of revenue

that, like Facebook brought in,
that YouTube brought in, that

Spotify brought in and that NFTs
brought in.

And it was like the average
dollar amount per creator on

Facebook was like $1.67 that
they made.

Youtube was like I think, a
couple of thousand.

Yeah, I think YouTube was like
the best one.

Spotify was like $600 per
artist average.

And then you look at NFTs.

But it also showed the amount
of creators on the platform

comparative to how much they
made, like all these platforms

on the billions.

And you look at NFTs 300,000
essentially active wallets,

average value creation, or
average income $174,000 a year.

Like you know what I mean.

Like yeah, that's the way it
should be, man, and it really

man.

That, like I had conviction
before, but seeing actual

numbers validate it, I'm like,
wow, keep competing for the

slivers of things that are, like
, controlled by things that are

out of your control.

Like you have no say in that.

You know what I mean.

It's something to give creators
money.

Speaker 2: It's like we need
that.

You know, like that divided
line like of like you know, like

hippies, and then we need, you
know, people who are like we

need guns and we need all of
those people.

We need all of it.

It's so important because
that's what makes you know

America.

It's like a democracy, like you
know, challenging each other so

that we can get, because
nobody's right, nobody's wrong.

It's like we got to figure out
where we can like, where it all

fits in.

So it's like when you look at
like what you're giving creators

, when you're giving creators
$175,000 a year, you're not

giving them to politicians.

You're not giving them that
money to people who aren't doing

anything with it.

These people who are creating,
like they want to do good things

with it and I'm watching it
happen.

They're creating funds.

I mean, I'll kid, andrew raised
like a million dollars in like

30 seconds For in the Ukraine
and we don't talk about this

enough.

But Time Magazine big fan love
Keith Grossman.

Right, huge brand did not raise
a million dollars in 30 seconds

.

What does that tell us?

What does that tell us?

That tells us how powerful this
community really is.

I love Time, everything we do,
but this is proving right now

that this is a community based
ecosystem and therefore you can

see someone like Andrew come in
and be like, hey, yo, let's

contribute a bunch of art and
make a million dollars in 30

seconds for the Ukraine.

That's just.

You will never see that ever
again in history like this.

And it's like these pivotal
moments are like changing the

entire, like escape of what
we're doing here.

So like I think, when we talk
about like what Web 3 is gonna

do, it's giving like creative
$175,000 a year, which they're

literally changing the world
with it, because, as we all know

, art has changed the world and
will continue, and if you give

artists money and that it can
create liberally, dude, we're

gonna see a paradigm shift in
art and technology over the next

decade.

Magic nation is getting paid.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, yeah,
like.

I mean we as much as I ran it
and raved about Tool and we

talked about that in the
beginning it's just like there's

so many other people that,
given the art like it's, they

also created in a different time
and not to say they didn't

struggle, they didn't go through
the things that all musicians

go through Like, but imagine if
they would have had different

resources at that time.

You know what I mean.

Like that's the idea.

And I think one of the
interesting things and it's

because I have one foot in
corporate America and I have one

foot in the creative industry
where it's like the one in the

perspective that I bring is that
in the workplace, everyone's

always like we need more
benefits and pay and work-life

balance and all these things,
and it's like we demand all

these things.

And, to be honest, if you're
especially if you're at a good

company like a lot of good
companies who want to do right

by their employees have given a
lot of good things to their

employees to like help them do
their job better, cause if

they're happy employees, they're
gonna do their job better.

But what's really interesting is
that the same merit is not

given to the creative industry.

You know what I mean.

Like we're here demanding all
this shit.

You know what I mean.

We, you know, we deserved it,
we earned it and yada, yada,

yada.

But at the same time, when you
look at like there's this like

weird belief system and I'll be
honest, even before this I

suffered from it, from a little
bit too where it's just like

there's this thing where it's
like if we pay artists what

they're worth, they're just
gonna take the money and run and

not create anymore and not
create any more value.

You know what I mean.

Like I'll sit here and like
admit that in public that I

genuinely did have that thought
before I came into this industry

and it's like it had an
entirely different shift.

Where it's like no, no, no, how
about we give these people what

we've been demanding?

They're gonna continue to
create better shit.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Like I think there's
two, there's two things.

So there's that that people
will think the creators will

just fuck off and not do
anything, which is obviously

we've watched it from Jim
Morrison to, and you know, just

so I get that.

But there's the second one,
which is I've been told so many

times that they can't.

You know, like this is how much
we can pay you.

You know $500 or whatever.

And it's like cool, then I'm
not within your budget,

obviously, and you know what
they do.

They go and find someone who
will do it for free.

Their friend from high school
will shoot their wedding.

Their friend from high school
has a camera and he just got

into photography.

It's like people didn't
understand that the content that

you create and capture are
literally the memories that you

get to carry on for the rest of
your life to show people.

So it's like if they can get
their best friend to do it for

free, you've lost that work and
it's like it's not like it's

unfortunate, but it's like
because you know anyone can

shoot with a camera.

Everyone believes that.

That's also like the
professional quality.

It's like my sister asked me to
shoot her wedding and I'm like

I don't shoot weddings and she's
like but I'm your sister and

I'm like well, I get that.

But just look at wedding
photography portfolios.

I've never studied wedding
photography.

I don't know how to shoot
weddings, I shoot landscapes.

So it's going to be totally
different.

You need to hire an actual
person, especially I'm going to

fuck it up at the end of the day
and I'm going to be straight

forward with you you need to
hire someone who has a portfolio

of weddings and it's like that
needs to be.

It's the most understated thing
that you know.

Experience is so important.

But people will work for free
and therefore great

photographers will lose business
.

And I'm not saying that people
shouldn't work for free, by the

way.

Like dude, work for free, like
that's how you get, like you

know in the space or whatever
you need to do, like we're all

survivors, like if you have to
work for free, work for free

Like I get it, like I did it for
a long time.

There's nothing wrong with that
.

But I am saying that it
definitely gives that like

undervalued sense to artists
when someone can do it for free.

And I think you know again,
it's the people who do it for

free are amateurs usually, you
know it's people who and that's

beneficial.

It's like when you get out of
high school and you work at

McDonald's, you know.

It's like this is my starter
job, where I'm going to learn

how to take a different
occupation.

Or I work at Starbucks for a
while and learn.

It's like these are the things
that's like.

Well, when you get into
photography, all your starter

shit is like, yeah, americans
are free, I'm shooting weddings,

I do what I want, like I try to
get them so I can learn how to

shoot, and it's like I get that.

But that's, I think, another
stigma that just like so much,

lowers the value of what artists
are trying to create.

Speaker 1: I like that?

Yeah, cause I mean I had the
same thing, even just with my

job, like I started in base
level customer care and like

went into escalations and did my
thing there and that was

actually a really valuable skill
for me to learn.

You know what I mean, but I
think a lot of.

So I want to ask you this cause
, like this is something that

like I walked through is like.

In that journey there's this
really tough lesson, and for

some it takes longer than others
and for me it just took a

really long fucking time to like
okay, when am I not an amateur?

When am I transitioning to like
, valuing my work more and like?

It's this delicate balance of
like cause everyone's different,

everyone's on their own journey
and you need, you need to have

some of that like.

Like, like working for free or
working for little, or you know

what I mean Like, or working for
scraps.

So like, understand like it's
like if you cause, if you can

enjoy it, then you're not going
to enjoy it at the top.

You know what I mean Like, but
that's it.

Speaker 2: It's it.

Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: That's exactly it,
though that if it stops fun

anymore, if you can't enjoy it,
then it's not that, then you're

done.

Then you're done with shooting
for free.

Then you're no longer enjoying
it and it's not fun.

You're no longer shooting for
free anymore, now you're

charging.

It's the same with spaces.

When I was hosting spaces and
shooting, you know, working for

other artists and watching them
make millions of dollars while I

would host a space it wasn't
fun anymore.

After six months, after a year,
it didn't.

It wasn't.

It wasn't like I didn't enjoy
it.

So you know what?

And I'm gonna charge for it.

If you want to host a space and
you're making a million dollars

, I'm going to charge you for
that hosting.

And why?

Because I spend all day on
Twitter spaces collecting the

audience while you get to create
art.

So, yeah, it's not as fun for
me anymore, so I am going to

charge.

It's like when things don't
become fun anymore.

I think that's when you know I
need to charge for it and it

becomes fun again.

I've noticed it's like I'm
making money for this and I'm

doing what I love.

This is dope, because when you
start to feel like you're being

used, that is the moment it
loses all of its fun.

I found that through shooting
for musicians and you know,

entertainers is like, dude, I
love music to the core, as you

love to what I would do to shoot
a tool show right?

Well, I said that for a lot of
musicians and you know what I

found out it's not as cool as I
thought it would be.

After a while you start feeling
used.

They start going yo can you
take a picture of me?

And my girlfriend Can you take
a picture of me?

It's like I was here for the
music and because I was a fan, I

was a diehard fan and now I'm
getting used.

So it's like when the fun goes
away, that's when you start

charging people.

Speaker 1: And then, ironically,
it's so, it's like and it's an

interesting ways, like I like
the way you said it.

So it's like when it stops
becoming fun, it's almost like a

barrier, or when you feel used,
that's the barrier and that's

like the catalyst, like, ok,
this is not like I feel like I'm

being taken advantage of, now I
get to charge for it.

Speaker 2: It's no longer an
amateur, I'm a trainer.

Speaker 1: Interesting.

I haven't heard that before I
wrote.

Yeah, yeah, I I'm looking for
the parallels in my story and

there's there was.

It took a little longer, like I
said in that in that journey

you know that timeframe is
different for everybody Like for

me, you know, it was about
about three years for me to like

fully realize that, and then
now it's three years of I'm

pushing three years of creating
content just for podcasts and

it's looking a little bit
different now, like there's,

there's this shift that's
starting to happen, where it's

like OK, what I'm doing is
actually valuable.

Like now I mean, yeah, and I
think for me, and hopefully this

, like I hope this helps, like
other people's, that like I

switched my perspective from
like I'm interviewing people to

I'm documenting history and when
I actually believed that that's

when things started to change.

You know what I mean.

Like we're documenting, yep.

Speaker 2: Yep, 100 percent.

Yeah, documenting like it's all
my interview and people and

pumping their projects, or am I
documenting history?

It's like it's all your mindset
I'm taking, it's like it's so

true and it's like it's the same
thing with, like your podcast

right now, right, like you're
enjoying it.

It's done, you're going to get
paid eventually for it and a lot

of money for it.

So when you do that and when you
decide, like I need

advertisements, I need to
monetize this, that's when it

goes from, and I hate to use the
word amateur and professional

because it's like is a
professional someone who sells

their work?

No, professional is not someone
who sells their work.

I think a professional is
someone who decides to start

selling.

You know what I'm saying?

It's like because people's work
sells.

Dude, let's say, your podcast
just doesn't go anywhere.

Did you make no money, but
you're still trying to monetize

it and therefore, in my opinion,
you're a professional podcaster

because you're trying to make
money off of your art.

So, before, you're a pro at
what you do, because even if

you're not making money, dude,
like this is what your intention

is You're creating art and
you're also trying to make money

off of it.

Like that's a professional.

You know, stand way.

It's like there are so many
artists, I believe, out there

that have never made a sale, but
they are still professional

artists, in my opinion, because
this is what they do day and

night.

And like it's like, even if you
have a job, I think it's like

what defines a pro is like do I
get up and consistently do

something that I fail at because
I love it.

So I'm successful at that.

I think, because I consistently
do it, even if I'm like living

out in my car and I've never
sold a print Dude, I'm the most

successful photographer on the
planet in my opinion, because

I'm doing what I love and how
many people get to do that.

That's that's how you have to
look at it.

I feel like I remember like
living in my cars at some time

to just be like I'm living like
a Lisa Baltimore.

That sucks, but I feel like I'm
like the most successful person

on the planet right now, like
there's a dude at home like

working his job like nine to
five, and I get to do what I

love.

So I feel very successful.

That's kind of how I have to
look at it.

Speaker 1: I like that man, I do
, and it's.

I followed a lot of Gary V
content before this, you know,

before I came into Web three and
that was like a lot, yeah, yeah

, dude, that's a lot of like.

It's like how you, that's how
you know you're winning already.

It's like you're winning if you
, if you're enjoying what you're

doing, regardless of how much
income you have.

And it took me a while to
really grasp that concept.

Like you know, like I would
hear, I would hear him say it

and I would hear him say it
18,000 times and I just like

couldn't see that.

Oh, dude, yeah, he said, I know
, I know back in like 2017, 18.

It was like he was like
hammering it.

You know what I mean, like he
was super hammering it, you know

.

And there was another I'm
trying to I had a, I had a brain

fart.

But one of the one of things
that he also said, and the one

of the reasons why I repeat some
of the stories here, some of my

stories along with different
guests, is that, you know,

sometimes it takes people nine
hundred and six to seven times

for it to finally click.

Like you know, like you can say
it's repetitive, you can say

it's this, you can say it's that
, but some people need to hear

things close to a thousand times
for them to actually like

understand.

And I know what I was saying,
that it was the documenting

versus creating, and like he was
saying that back in 18 and 19.

I'm like, what the fuck does he
mean by that?

Like what it like?

Like I didn't discount it, but
it startled me and I just I

couldn't make the application.

You know, I couldn't apply it
to my personal life.

I didn't, I didn't see what he
was talking about it.

But it sometimes like that seed
is planted so early, then you

know, all of a sudden it clicks.

Never discount a thought, never
, you know.

Like that's just very
interesting.

I know it went on a complete
tangent in there, but it's like

no, that's interesting.

Yeah, yeah, so many seeds were
planted early.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's
honestly like how I got into the

NFTs is.

I was watching a Gary Vee thing
and he was talking that NFTs

are going to be like the future
of art and all this stuff and I

was like I'm an artist.

I was like what's he talking
about?

I was like I like crypto.

I was like I like energy, like
let's see what this is all about

.

And you were asking how I got
into clubhouse and stuff like

that.

And it was like I was.

When the pandemic started, I
closed all the galleries because

there was no traffic.

It was like, dude, I was 13
grand a month on a gallery and a

mall with no traffic.

Speaker 1: Oh shit.

Speaker 2: Wow, dude.

So I closed them.

When I owed investors money, I
was like dude it was.

It was really bad.

It was like so what do I do now
?

Well, the government's not
going to save me.

You know, like we're fucked
here and I'm not going to get a

PPE loan and my unemployment is
probably not going to come in

because I'm an artist.

So what do I do?

So I looked at my wife and I
said everyone's going to party

during the pandemic and get
crazy.

I said I'm going to learn and I
was like I'm going to study.

And I was like I'm going to
work out.

And I'm like one am Workouts,
dude, like the weirdest sleep

cycles ever, like just literally
getting like crazy, like just

going crazy.

So I started to learn stocks,
like how to trade stocks.

So I started entering chat
rooms and this is where it's

going to get interesting.

So I created an avatar, a whole
new persona on these stock

chats, right, like a whole new
persona.

That just wasn't me, because
nobody wants to help some

artists who's trying to learn
stocks.

So he's created a whole new
persona and these stock twists

and started learning like from
chat rooms and how to like trade

and getting all these tips from
like traders and like really

learning.

So, six months into it, I'm
doing pretty good, dude.

I've got like Tesla, I'm doing
great and I'm not the best you

know, but I'm doing good, dude.

I made something you know like
enough to like support myself.

And then I learned about crypto
.

Now, I had to learn about
crypto in 2011 because I had

Bitcoin, because I was playing
StarCraft and was winning in

championships.

Speaker 1: Let's go man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but I had spent
it all in the silk road on acid

.

Speaker 1: I knew what it was.

Speaker 2: And I understood
crypto.

So when it's like approached,
you know, like when the idea, I

was in a chat room and it was
like this dude was like you need

to get a metamask and download
and you need to start buying

crypto, and I thought I was
getting scammed and I was like,

whatever, why not?

I was like at this point, dude,
I'm going to end up break a

ribs.

Like the world is on fire, like
so I'm doing one day and

workouts, I'm learning about
crypto and buying into Solana.

When it's like three dollars,
I'm like, oh my God, see when

it's like a couple of dollars,
like all these things, not

knowing anything about what
they're going to be worth, just

listening to tips.

So I'm one night on Clubhouse
no, I was one night surfing

Twitter or whatever and I see
that Elon Musk is going to go to

Clubhouse.

So I tweet out is anyone has a
Clubhouse invite?

Yet Everyone's got on board?

Yeah.

So I tell you, does anyone have
a Clubhouse invite for me?

And one of my friends had a
Clubhouse invite.

She's like I got you shout out
to Kaila and she sent me the

invite and I get on and I
realized, like a couple of my

friends are on there and one of
my friends, alec, is running

troll team six and I'm like, ok,
so what are we doing here?

And we're trolling rooms and
they've literally created Elon

Musk avatars and they've run Wow
.

And I'm like, oh this is where
I fit in.

So I joined the troll team six
and we're like literally like

the men on out, we're just
trolling Clubhouse dude, we're

creating the Scientology rooms
like the most ridiculous rooms

ever and we just trolled hard
and we get drunk every night and

just troll.

Well, like I mean, it was just
like the best Actually.

Yeah, you know what?

They were drunk.

I was like actually sobered in
all this Get hammered and like

literally trolling with them
till 2 AM.

Well, I was like the gym or
whatever.

It was the best dude.

One night I did actually get
drunk and we're trolling and I

think I closed up the
Scientology room and it was like

one of the best Scientology
rooms we ever had.

Speaker 1: Dude, that's yeah,
wow OK.

Speaker 2: That was, that was us
.

Yeah, thank you, and it was the
best we ever had.

It was so hilarious.

Dude Like, oh, I can't even.

And I see this NFT photography
room and I'm like I've heard of

NFTs, I own virtual land of this
Earth 2 website.

I was like I know a little bit
about this show.

I was like I'm going to see
what's going on and they

immediately invite me up on
stage and they're talking

photography and it's like Jeff
Nicholas Reve, vora Cap.

Wow, who's buying photography
at this very moment?

Like wow, they're buying a bunch
of it.

Yeah, so it's like this room
and I think everybody knows each

other.

And Jeff, we were just at
Disney land last week and he's

like I thought you knew
everybody.

It's like because that was the
first time I'd been in that room

.

It was the first time, so we
all thought everyone knew each

other.

Get pulled in this VIP room
after a while.

It's talking about it Laughing
like well, we should do this

again.

And so it became this thing.

And it started with like no one
being able to make their stove

photography, because we believed
it was only animated and 3D

snow was willing to make their
stills Got it, it just wasn't

going to happen, and me not
caring about shit and not caring

about a genesis and literally
just going to person to anything

, because we just don't care.

I just wanted my work, fuck it.

Yeah, I meant it Like dude, I'm
not going to wait, like I'm

going to mint.

So I minted it and sold it to
my friend from high school

Because he was the one who kind
of like had messaged me a long

time ago and I should put my arm
.

So I was like I'm going to sell
it to him, like that'd be

really cool, and so sold to him
for a point one, ethan, this was

my first NFT.

Speaker 1: Dude, that's sick,
yeah.

So I wanted to say my great.

Speaker 2: And so he has my one
on one.

Great, that was like my first
genesis.

But after that I was like, okay
, now, from here on out it's

fine, Ethan up.

And everyone was like what?

I was like yeah, dude, like
I've worked my ass off from my

portfolio, I'm not going to sell
these things for cheap.

These are one of ones, dude.

Like no way, like in the real
world.

Just so you guys understand, I
wouldn't sell anything for less

than $500,000 is the one of one.

Just because that's just no
reason why I wouldn't.

Not because I'm established,
not because I have galleries,

because I've worked my ass off
for my photos, slept in cars and

tents and ate shit for 15 years
.

The last thing I'm going to do
is give away my work for $100.

Right and wrong with that.

By the way, people should do
whatever they want.

Just me personally wasn't going
to happen.

So I got a lot of shit, you know
, photographers coming at me,

collectors coming at me, threads
being put out about me that my

work wasn't good enough, that I
was filming in the photography,

stealing the liquidity, and it
was just so funny to me because

it was like, guys, if you had
been around 15 years ago to see

how the gallery scene was, this
is just like it is all over

again.

So I raised my prices.

We were like, fuck it.

I raised my prices to 10, 20.

Let's keep going.

And they started selling and my
first one, first photographer,

is selling double digits at 23.

Wow Sold my piece and everyone
was like, oh shit, that gave me

all the credibility and
validation that I needed to be

able to say because I looked
fucking crazy.

I really did.

People thought I was a total
dick.

I looked crazy, but what I was
trying to prove was that, look,

it doesn't matter what you price
your work at, it will

eventually sell, and I have
found this over the years of

opening galleries to selling my
work to where I've been told

from my family and friends.

I wish I could own your work,
but it's too expensive, right, I

lowered my prices to $40 and
I'm down to zero for free.

When I close my galleries to
give my work away because I

couldn't move it anywhere, you
know we're sitting not in

people's houses, in a fucking
storage lot over in St Rose

Parkway.

Nobody even wanted it for free.

That's what tells you that if
people are telling you I can't

afford your work, I'm sorry, sir
, but that's not the fucking

case.

It's not that you can't afford
it.

It's most likely the case that
you don't resonate it and you

don't want it, because if I gave
it to you for free, it probably

still wouldn't take it.

That was the case when I was
trying to Love that.

That was it.

So when I realized that, I was
like what the fuck you do?

I'm going to sell for what I
want to.

I don't care about anything,
and if it sells, it sells.

If it doesn't, I'm not an
investment man.

Like, my art is not an
investment.

It never, ever, ever will be,
and I will never, ever sell it

as an investment.

My art is art.

That is it.

Hang it on the wall.

You will never create a
secondary art.

I promise you.

You will never.

And if you do, it's all on you
guys, not on me.

I will never promote it.

I will never give you utility.

I will never give you any
access to investments that are

going to create my art, to make
it more valuable.

My art is valuable because it's
fucking art.

I created it.

There is nothing else to it.

I'm not going to create a
secondary market for it and,

knowing that, that is why I
placed my art, I'm going to get

it down at point one-eat where I
hope to make money off the

secondary, hoping that people
will choose my floor.

I'm not leaving it up to other
people to create my value or

dictate what I'm worth.

It's not worth it to me.

I'd rather go work at some
banks.

That's just how I see it.

I'd rather go work for a
minimum wage than let other

people tell me what I'm worth.

So, therefore, I priced my art
at what I want to and I

advocated to anybody else who
believes in themselves.

Speaker 1: Love that dude.

I actually that what you
touched on there there was a bit

that I wasn't expecting.

It was around when people
wouldn't take your stuff for

free and that was like the light
bulb, like that was like the

light bulb moment.

You know, if they're not
willing to take it, like if it's

, it's not because it's not
because they didn't like, it's

just because they didn't want it
or it didn't resonate with them

or didn't.

That's probably said nothing to
actually do with it.

Nothing, bro.

I really was clothing.

Speaker 2: That's fucking wild
dude 20, $30 with my pictures on

it, like family didn't fucking
buy it.

Wow, yeah, it's like.

That tells you.

It's like I mean, my sisters
would be like, hey, I can't

afford to buy it, but it's like,
well, that's $40.

Did they ever buy it?

No, they never bought it.

So that tells me, right there,
nobody cares what your price is,

dude.

It's just do they like your
work?

Right, that's it.

Do they like it?

Do they want to hang it on
their wall?

And obviously they didn't want
to hang it on their wall.

So that's what it came down to.

So it's like price your arm if
you want to.

Man, some will buy it when they
like it.

Speaker 1: That's really
interesting.

I like that man.

It's actually really refreshing
.

It's interesting and also
refreshing to hear that thought,

because that's what I see a lot
in the not just the photography

space, but in just in.

You know, whether it's any art
in the NFT space is just what

should I price that?

And there's a conversation
about additions, and there's a

conversation about one-to-ones,
and there's a conversation and

it's just like I mean.

But what I will say, though, is
that you had it like having

that experience prior to having
that like aha moment to help you

know.

Like is.

I think people are trying to
like, look for the hack of, like

what works best for them, but
the reality is that, like,

whatever works best for you is
going to be from any of those

moments of your previous
experience or your current

experience that you may have not
had yet.

You may have not had yet to
where to.

That's going to give you that
idea, and some people may never

have that, and some people may
like want to do different

additions.

I, personally, fucking love
additions.

Like it allows me a lower price
point for other people's work.

You know what I mean?

Like it's.

There's nothing wrong with it.

Speaker 2: I want to drift
because of additions.

Yeah, exactly yeah, additions
are so important.

Like I don't think people
understand.

Like we look at prices and we
look at value and we often, like

we ask everyone else to dictate
our value.

Like I get DMs, what should I
price my work at?

And it's like, like you said,
everyone's trying to find a hack

.

But you know, what I've found
is that if you're chasing

somebody else's dream, you're
going to fail.

It's just, it's a guarantee.

And what I was doing when I got
into photography and trying to

monetize it was chasing the
Peterlick model, the dream that

I could be Peterlick my name and
bright lights under a gallery

in the strip.

I was like that's it.

You know what happened when I
got that?

It was fucking cornflakes.

It was.

None of it was real.

I was chasing somebody else's
dream.

I went down that whole spiral
of entertainment, lifestyle,

drugs, party and all of it, and
realizing that all of it was

cornflakes.

At the end I'm here to create
and make my art.

None of that monetization
really mattered.

Creating the galleries that
will just kill it for me.

That killed my passion.

Well, really, the core of it
was me creating art, because I

was a lost kid in chaos and what
I found sanity was looking

through a lens and controlling
my environments by literally

using filters and photography to
control my world.

So when you look back at that,
you go well, there is no fucking

hack.

Nobody got into art because
they wanted to get rich.

If you got into art because
you're trying to make money,

you're going to fail.

You're going to have a road
away game.

Art is not because, like, no
one got into art to get rich.

You don't get into art to eat
Like it's literally suffering.

That's how you get like, that's
how it makes it Like and I hate

to say that because it's like
the web, through model, is

trying to take that away.

But in the very beginning, when
we all got an art, none of us

got in it for the money.

We literally got in it because
we enjoy it.

So I look at that and I go
there is no hack.

Man, you have to price your work
literally by how I tell people

this is the best way I can do it
.

Go, look in the mirror and be
like start pricing and start

like being like two, three, 40.

When you laugh at the price and
be like that's just way too

much, just do the one right
before it.

So you got to 10th and you
laugh.

You're like all right, 90.

That's where I'm at and that's
where you price your artwork.

That's honestly like.

I heard that from somebody and
I was like that's a really good

way to do it, like that's
awesome.

Like how I price my artwork, I
just price it what I think it

deserves.

That's it.

I like there's a piece on
foundation that's at 50 because

I worked my ass off for it,
probably going to raise the

price here pretty soon, why not?

That's just how I see it.

It's like I'm just going to
price my art what I think I

earned for it and you just have
to look at it and go.

Would I regret it for selling
for this price?

Will I regret selling this for
one eighth in a year from now?

Will I regret selling this?

Like I look at it and I sell my
piece for 58.

I'm not going to regret that.

Speaker 1: Right, I like that,
and it goes back to a

conversation I had a little
earlier.

When you're looking for these
answers, to find those answers

are certain questions you need
to ask yourself, and I think

that's what a lot of people
don't know how to do, or whether

it's just out of fear of
understanding the truth, or a

fear of success, or a fear of
failure, a fear of all these

things, a fear of like it's
selling for less than it's worth

or over, just a fear of not
knowing.

No one's willing to ask
themselves these questions and

actually sit with them.

You know what I mean.

I actually sweat super, super
small details about some of my

work.

That I do, that I don't think
most people do, and that's what

makes me incredibly unique and
like because most people don't

give two shits about it.

Like I'll even be vulnerable
and honest on this podcast.

Like when I'm putting artists
work on there after the

description in the show notes,
do I put my socials or do I put

the artists socials first, and
I've gone so back and forth on

doing that.

I'm like I don't think anyone
worries about this as much as I

do.

You know what I mean.

Like it's a thought, though,
because I'm like okay, I'm

creating value.

They're also creating value,
like does that really matter if

it's first or not?

Do I want them to showcase
their work or do I want them to

showcase on my Twitter?

Like, where do I want people to
go?

You know what I mean and so, to
be honest, dude, I tried it so

back and forth, and I go back
and forth between two.

I don't know the fucking answer
, but it's questions.

You're the creator and that's
typically what I've landed at.

You know what I mean and like,
that's like.

But I also view going back to
our earlier talk about the

paradigm shift when it comes to
art and creatives is that you

know, like we've historically
like you know, especially

photographers have historically
undervalued.

So I'm like does it deserve to
be up there?

Do I want?

Like, what is it that I want to
say?

You know what I mean, what do I
want to say through the

placement of this?

So, but at the same time, it's
like well then, if I do that, am

I devaluing myself?

So I go into this asking more
questions than I am trying to

find answers.

You know what I mean.

I love that and I literally
that thought stuck with me all

fucking day yesterday, and so I
think people need to search I

say all that number one just to
learn in public and be

vulnerable with people on here.

But it's just like dude, like
like whatever.

The answer is that you come to
go with that and that's the

right answer, because I had this
thing with one of my, one of my

like, from my community.

I've onboarded a couple people
from the Twitch streaming

community that we remain home
with.

We were homies then, we remain
homies now and they got into

this, you know, because of what
I was doing.

Now they're in a different
ecosystem, doing things a

different way, are in different
spots in their career and

professional life and financial
life, and it's like so many

times all I won't directly ask
the question, but I'll almost

like seek validation through
someone else who's doing

something for completely
different reasons.

You know it has completely
different goals and mindsets,

and then when it's the wrong
answer, then when it's not the

right answer, then I get like
I'm confused.

I'm like, well, what the fuck
were you really trying to find

there?

Like you know what I mean, like
I'm clearly on a different path

and clearly in a different spot
in life, and not that anyone is

worse than the other.

We're just in different spots
in our career.

You know what I mean and you
know this person is, you know,

like older and has a family and
has different goals and has

different things and has
different you know, and like I'm

like just starting my career
you know what I mean Like I'm

figuring this shit out so I can
afford to take a little bit more

risks and buy some more.

Yeah, I can experiment more
still.

So I love that you said that
because like it's so fucking

simple, man, it's so simple and
it's a lot of times it's that

whole I'm going to sound like a
broken record here from just

everyone in the universe is that
you know, like the comparisons,

the thief of joy kind of
argument, where it's like we're

all trying to price our world,
we're all trying to figure this

shit out, but like everyone's
got completely different goals

and if you consistently are
trying to like figure out what

other people are doing to hack
that, you know you're going to

lose.

So board apes didn't get to
where they were because they did

what someone else did.

They did something completely
different.

And I'm going to go in a
soapbox right here and I know

you're going to your probably
agree with it is that, like

board apes, have set the model
because they consistently tested

new ways to use the technology.

Now do I think the monkeys are
kind of cringe?

Absolutely, do I really want to
own at this point?

Not really.

I mean, you know, like I want
to own a punk, I want to own a

doodles like that.

That's like, that's what I want
, okay, but I will never

discount what they're doing.

They are like, doing something
completely different and in the

beginning the utility was lower
meant price.

It was three things.

It was lower meant price point
080, because I remember mints

were a lot higher at that time.

So that was a really big
innovation, which you know.

Super simple you could draw in
the bathroom and you could draw

in the bathroom wall and the a
and the a.

Right Now I don't own anymore,
I've only heard stories right,

so it's like.

But it created this lure of
like, mystery and like what does

the bathroom really look like
and what were people drawing?

And is it going to be on chain
for you, right, so?

And then they throw in and then
commercial rights, obviously

the biggest one, you know.

But you look at what they did.

Now everyone, everyone just
tries to do like like, try to

like catch their weight or like
right in their wake and copy

what they're doing.

But they consistently do things
differently, which is why they

are ahead.

They're doing it.

People want different.

If people wanted the same shit,
they just go buy the same shit.

You know percent.

So I try to people.

You know again, I probably
never get into that community

now, not really.

Not because I know I won't
afford it.

I know I will, but just because
I don't really want to.

Right, but you got to respect
what they've done.

You know what I mean.

I don't know, I don't really
respect the hell out of it and

that's what people don't really
see.

Speaker 2: They don't.

They don't the reason, like the
NFT market is hot, like they're

the reason, like, like I give
them the credit where it's

deserve, a hundred percent.

They are the reasons that, like
before Board H, we were just

trading art back and forth on
Clubhouse and I remember saying

on the stage if we continue this
, we will run out of money

because of gas.

If we continue to exchange it
back and forth and we will just

run out of gas and like we have
this, yeah, and we have taken

all the liquidity from these
collectors and wasted it on each

other and gas, and I was like
this is like this is not going

to work, like this is going to
end.

And then the eight scheme, and
that changed everything, because

it allowed so much more
liquidity into the space.

It allowed so much more value
to be put on NFTs, like what you

, the labs, did for artists,
which they'll probably never

realize, which was they made us
all, they give us all the tools

to become rich.

That's really what they did.

They opened the door for
artists because without that

market, we couldn't have been
able to create the liquidity

that we've created.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Yeah, like there's nothing I
disagree with there, I think

that, and V friends, like I
think it was those two projects

and I know people again, people
love and hate Gary.

I can see why, like he is a
flavor and he is a strong flavor

, but you can't, I mean I just
will never bet against him when

it comes to anything that he
does, but it was just like the

work that he's put in.

Yeah, not at all, like, not at
all.

And like they broke two
different trains.

They basically introduced two
different schools of thought.

You know, apes were, they had
these three innovations that

they came with.

Gary was literally the
definition of utility based

projects.

You know what I mean, like,
because no one bought that for

the art.

You know what I mean, right,
because these are doodles that

he's done, but it meant a lot to
him and it's really funny to

see these things sold at
Sotheby's and Christie's and,

like you know, it's like that's
going to be super disruptive,

you know, and probably makes a
lot of people really fucking mad

that like this dude's just like
little drawings sold for that

much.

But he is the definition of the
utility, nfts.

Again, he did something
different.

He did something different that
no one else was doing, and

guess what?

And now every NFT project is a
combination of UGLABS and Gary

Vee, like some do, totally some
sort of combination of the two.

Speaker 2: Gary Vee didn't even
know what the apes were until he

stumbled into our clubhouse
room with all of us apes and we

started raiding his rooms with
apes.

I have screenshots of us
raiding his rooms with Grant

Cardone and Gary.

Vee and us raiding those rooms
and throat modding all of us so

that we could read these rooms,
them all in their normal PFPs,

us all in apes, just making AP
noises.

This was like I remember us
texting each other, being like

you know, it's like Gary Vee
about to pump our bags, like is

Gary Vee about to ape into apes?

Like that's all we wanted was
Gary Vee to recognize the apes.

And when he did, and he started
getting on our stages and

talking to us like oh oh, we
made it, we did it, we did it,

gary Vee.

And it's like that was like
people look at that and they get

mad at Gary Vee, but it's like,
the end of the day, like he has

really kind of like helped us.

Yeah, with the market.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a
constant.

What I'll see is that, you know
, a lot of some of the deeper

art community is like a lot of
people like look down on PFP

flipping and, like you know,
this identity created like all

these different projects, and
it's like, dude, that is a very

big driver in this ecosystem,
right, Like it's a way for

people to make money natively in
Ethereum.

You know what I mean and
because, like you look like, and

we all love that ETH is, even
though we're in a shitter market

right now, eth is still at
$1,700 value, $1,700.

Amazing, it's insane, you know.

So it's amazing.

Money, like liquidity, will flow
faster if money is created

naturally within the ecosystem
versus people continuously just

converting USD to ETH.

Like that, just that, just it's
people are doing it, people,

but people are dollar cut, like
they're DCA and they're dollar

cost averaging it.

You know, and it's like that's
trickling in.

That's not giving this the
white hot volume that we

experienced.

You know that we ultimately
didn't know we were going to

experience, but did experience
in 2021.

You know what I mean.

Millions of dollars, right,
yeah, yeah, I mean.

What was interesting, though,
is that I was having a chat with

Eric Rubens and, like you know,
like what's really, what's

really interesting about that is
that, even though these markets

were white, hot like board,
apes did a lot for artists and

did a lot for art, but also a
bunch of shit projects came in

the wake, you know, and now
maybe 1% 2% are still existing

in 2022.

Speaker 2: You know what I mean.

I mean without board apes, that
you know.

Like I'm an early board eight
mentor and I literally thought

we were going to give away to
collectors and like just give

them away for free.

And they thought they'd be fun.

Like we have no idea.

Yeah, blog did, yeah, I did.

And like we just like we didn't
know what they were creating.

All we knew is like we were
tired of sitting on the

clubhouse answering people's
questions and convincing people.

We were to scam for 12 hours a
day.

At the end of the night we
would blow off steam by just

making sloth avatars any avatar
we could make and just go around

and raid rooms and just have
fun, because that's how we like

blew off steam.

And then, when the age came, it
was like, oh cool, now we have

an identity, now we have PFCs
that we can really go and we can

pump the bag for it.

And I remember like saying like
to like half and a bunch of

people and like war hodl and
like all these guys like dude,

it's time to sell our age.

Like when they went to 100, I
was like it's time to sell our

age.

So it was like why I was like
because we don't need Ferraris.

Like we give our bags to
celebrities, like that's what we

do, like these are the
celebrities that are coming in

and buying our bags, so we don't
have millions of dollars like

they do.

Let's give them our bags.

Like if I wanted Ferrari from
Jeopardy or some shit, do you

think I'd be driving a Ferrari?

No, I'd sell that Ferrari so
that I can create more art.

So it's like, guys, it's time
to sell our Ferraris and let's

buy more fucking NFTs and make
more money.

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: Exactly, that's how I
look at it.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that
was really like D's always

mentioned that a lot too.

It's just like that.

Like you look at D's' bags, you
know, and that's like his, his

whole thing is trying to like
pump his bags.

You know what I mean?

20%.

Speaker 2: That's what we're
here to do.

Speaker 1: Exactly, there's
nothing wrong with it.

Speaker 2: We're here to make
art and pump the bags, the

Korean art, to monetize it.

Like there's nothing wrong with
that If I promote art that I

love.

If you want to call it pumping
a bag, cool, I'm cool with that.

Like that's literally what I'm
doing.

I like the art, I'm pumping it
and you know what?

I will sell it one day.

Probably that's right.

Most likely, I will sell it.

Now, when I buy a cat piece,
when I buy a drift piece, those

things are going for cheap.

I'll buy it.

I'll sell those for 100 E.

And I'm looking at PFPs Dude,
I'm here to literally sell those

.

Like when I bought the apes, I
did not find those cool.

I didn't think they were art.

I just saw the culture and I
was like this is fun, I vibe

with it.

They're ugly as shit, but I
vibe with it.

I'm going to put these on my
fucking wall, but I'm not with

it.

I'll sell them one day for a
million dollars, like that'd be

cool.

Speaker 1: But it also matched
the.

It matched the culture of what
y'all were doing before the apes

came out.

I think that's.

That's.

That's what people like.

The meme and the culture and
what represents our actions is

actually the most important
thing.

And if you can read between the
lines with these projects the

fucking goblins in goblin town
you know what I mean.

Like dude, that is one of the
ugliest things I've ever seen.

But the space needs it.

Speaker 2: The space needs it
right now.

I went into that room last
night and they're making goblin

noises and I'm like, oh, this is
what the space means right now.

This is what unites us again.

I love it.

I'm here, that's right.

They're ugly as shit and I'm
here for it, like if like again,

we go back to those days and
it's like that's what united all

of us was literally a common
ground of writing room and

fucking with people.

Yep, yep.

That's what we're here to do,
man.

Shake shit up, start problems.

We're just having fun changing
the world.

While we're at it, like you
know, reinventing the entire

financial and education system
and you know, fixing all the

shit that the government and our
parents and every other parent

has fucked up over the last
thousand years.

So we're just picking up the
pieces and fixing it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and having
really, I think the people where

people get so confused is that
in order to do something that's

life changing and revolutionary
and like change moves the needle

, you have to be like serious
about it.

You know what I mean and I
think that's what are that like.

Even when talking to my mom,
you know it goes like it goes

some of her stuff like even with
punks, when I try to describe

the history and the culture and
the lore of punks and why

they're so valuable, it's just
like I still can't get over the

fact that this is just an
eight-bit image.

You know what?

Speaker 2: I mean it's fun.

It's fun, dude.

And you know one of the biggest
pushers, pussy riot dude, has

literally made revolutionary
changes, but you know what she

did it?

Through Fucking fun.

She created music badass music
and created badass music videos

that were fun as hell and she
had fun while doing it, and it's

like that is what creates
revolutions and changes the

world.

If you're not having fun doing
it, then like what are we here

for, dude?

Life is short.

We don't have much time.

The destination is death.

Yep, that's the destination.

What are you all in a hurry for
?

Speaker 1: Dude, you literally
echoed an exact like.

That's exactly like word for
word what I tell people.

Like not even, not even a
little bit, not even like

paraphrasing like word for
fucking word.

Like if the destination is
death, why the fuck are we in a

hurry?

You know what I?

Speaker 2: mean, yeah, it's like
what are we in a hurry for,

dude?

Enjoy the moments and the
journey.

It's like we're trying to get
to this end place.

It's like I read this book when
I was like 15.

It was like this tiny book on
how to have a perfect life, and

I remember at the end she said
if you're running in the rat

race, at the end you're still a
fucking rat.

And it's like it's so true.

It's like when you participate
in the rat race, guess what?

At the end you're still a
fucking rat, even if you win.

It's like you're still a rat,
dude.

So it's like just enjoy the
journey.

That's what this is all about
and that's what photography has

taught me.

Everything is patience and just
enjoying the moments as they

come, because if you don't,
you're literally just racing to

death.

Speaker 1: And going back to
paradigm shifts around how

people value art and creativity
and people not taking this

social seriously.

There's also this thing like if
you're having fun, you can't

make money while having fun, or
that's only reserved for a

certain class of people.

You know what I mean and it's
like how untrue that actually is

number one, but it's like I
think that's what number one

confuses people.

It also makes people so upset,
like you could even let's throw

in the case of Elon Musk like
one of the smartest people in

the entire world, but the dude
just spends his day shitposting

on Twitter.

You know what I mean, and like
people.

Speaker 2: Literally bot.

Speaker 1: Twitter so we can
shitpost Right.

You know what I mean that
reaction video.

I don't know if you saw that
podcast where he like reacted to

like how many people he's like.

Who's had the experience that
only 5% of the users on Twitter

are bots and everyone just
erupted laughing and his laugh

was so genuine and so real that
it was the dude.

Just like he makes points out
of it, like he's so smart but he

doesn't take himself seriously
and I think that's what people

get so confused by with this.

Like why goblins are going for
$6,000 USD and these things are

fucking ugly.

Like like it's so bad Dude
trying to onboard people when

there's shit like this that
happens.

Like it is the most challenging
thing in the world.

Speaker 2: Like but the key is
is don't take yourself seriously

.

Yeah, like it was like the
beginning days at Clubhouse,

when everyone's so worried about
their genesis, and it's like

I'm over here just minting shit
and I give it a fuck.

Like why are we taking this
shit so seriously?

Like yo, we came here for the
fun, for dick butts and to smoke

some weed.

I don't understand where we
came.

Like it's so serious.

It's like dude, if it's serious
, then just go get a job and be

told what to do.

It's a lot easier.

It's a promise.

It's so much easier to be a
boss boy, I guarantee it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.

No, I agree with you, man, I
agree with you and it's yeah,

dude, I just it's fun trying to
explain that to people and when

you can finally explain that to
people and when it finally

clicks, they just get it.

Man, like it's just, it's a lot
of work to do that, but it's

Like, it's like again, like,
because I try to spend my time

onboarding people, but I also
try to like meme and shitpost

and have fun and I enjoy both
parts of it.

But it's like in a bear.

It's really hard to explain
that Like, explain, right.

But if you look at the I'm in
Dinosaur, the meme fits so

perfectly.

Like, we are in Goblin Town.

We are coping really hard.

Markets are down.

It makes sense why Goblin Town
would pump Like and when you

look back, like I won't buy one
right now, I think they're going

to take a really big dip and
then that's when I'll buy it,

because talk about the other
reason why this space is so

valuable is because nothing on
the blockchain can ever be

erased.

Like, if we truly believe that
this is going to be forever

thing, if we truly believe that
Ethereum, bitcoin, Solana, all

these things are going to exist,
you're going to look back at

the time, like in this bear
market, it's actually different

from other crypto bear markets
because number one, we have NFTs

, but number two, goblin Town
was what pumped during that bear

market and it's what got us
through the bear market.

You know what I mean.

I don't think like people are
too busy being mad about it to

like really appreciate the
subtle creativity in that.

You know what I mean.

Like it's so subtle, but it's
so.

It lines up so perfect man.

Speaker 2: I think people
realize it.

I just think they're happier
being mad.

Some people are just so much
happier being miserable than

they will ever be in happiness.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's just a
common thing and I've just

noticed that a lot in this space
from people who you know say

the algorithm is fucked up and
they're not being seen and like

it's just a consistent thing and
it's like I get it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Dude the
algorithm.

I'll tell you, I feel like the
vast minority of the algorithm

actually helps.

I don't know, but I definitely
helps.

I follow artists and guess what
, when I like other artists

posts, it does a really damn
good job of suggesting posts of

work that is very similar to it
100%.

Speaker 2: I guarantee you, I
promise like.

I will say this publicly it is
not the algorithm that is

fucking you.

I promise you it's either that
your work sucks or that you're a

dick.

That's really what it comes
down to.

I'm sorry, like that's just the
truth.

If you're not getting
engagement, it's because you're

not getting on spaces.

You're not talking about your
art, you're not spending all day

working on a China.

Tell everyone, and there's
nothing, by the way, run with

that.

I respect the shit out of
people who are out there

literally creating all day and
not getting on spaces.

If you're in, but don't bitch
that you're not getting

engagement.

If you're out there all day
creating and not on spaces and

trying to get engagement.

There are two sides to this and
you have to do both.

If you don't, that's fine.

Choose whatever you want to do,
but don't bitch about it

because it's the algorithm.

It is not the algorithm, I
promise you.

Speaker 1: Again, I'm going to
go back.

People are going to really
figure out how big of a Gary

Vistan I am after this episode.

He was saying this shit back in
2017.

It's not the algorithm, it's
your lack of consistency, it's

your lack of an ability, or it
just sucks, and that.

Guess what.

Everyone's work sucks at a
certain period in time.

Speaker 2: Or you suck.

Speaker 1: Maybe people just
don't like you.

Maybe you're a dick Everyone's
work sucks at some point or

another.

Speaker 2: Yeah, or people don't
like you, right, that's

possible and there's nothing
wrong with that Shit.

A lot of people don't like me,
dude, I'm used to it.

Yeah, people might not like you
and that might be why you're

not getting engagement.

Or maybe you didn't sit 24
hours a day on spaces with a

bunch of your friends trying to
make a name and trying to get

engagement.

Who knows why you're not
getting it.

That I promise you.

It's not the Twitter algorithm.

Speaker 1: It's not.

It's not the Instagram
algorithm, it's not the Twitter

algorithm.

Speaker 2: You're not Shadow
Band.

Speaker 1: No, no, no.

Elon Musk, I think, is actually
Shadow Band, but outside of

that he actually has a case for
that.

There's actually a logical
reason behind it.

But no, I'm glad you brought
that up Because I actually feel

that the algorithm serves me in
a really good way.

It's like a cheat code to
finding great art that either I

just want to admire and talk to
the artist, or all three of the

above.

You know what I mean.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: I didn't get 95,000
followers by having good art.

There's a lot of great artists
out there.

That is not why I got 95,000
followers.

I have 95,000 followers because
I've been engaging.

I'm consistently on spaces, I'm
promoting artists, I'm tweeting

, I'm throwing fucking events in
New York.

That is why I had to nuisily
build a follow.

That's why Drift has over
100,000 followers.

People love his story.

His story is fascinating and he
gets on spaces and talks about

it and he shares his story and
you can tell he has conviction

about what he says.

So it's like, yeah, the dude's
going to get followers.

So you just have to look at it
and go what's my intention?

Why am I here?

Why am I complaining?

Yeah, it's getting me anywhere.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

That's right and I I think you
hit the nail on the head.

Is that why am I here?

It's a question that not many
people like not many people

really tend to ask, and like
it's when people come in a bull

market.

Specifically, no one asked that
question.

That was right.

I'll tell you, john, that was
actually the biggest challenge

for me was that when I, when I
was bit by this bug and I

figured out like it, just when I
just got it, you know, I mean I

just understood what was that
play, understood what was

happening, understood the value
of it.

I'm my biggest challenge of
like, okay, what is my vet Like?

What am I contributing here?

You know, because I don't have
the bags to like support artists

the way I want to like
obviously I want to, but I just

don't have the money To.

I'm in severely in debt, can't
do it.

You know, I'm not a financial
guru, so it's like I'm not a

market guy, I don't fucking like
numbers.

You know what I mean.

So it's like, what is my
contribution?

Like, okay, like I run a
podcast.

So let me just interview a
bunch of people that I think are

doing really dope shit in this
space and I'm gonna run with

that and see where I go.

You know what I mean?

Like yeah, and just fucking
figure it out along the way.

You know, like you know, I love
that this, yeah, the whole story

of like getting getting getting
my account drain and then

winning money back in a giveaway
, and like you know, like you

can't make this shit up and it's
like but it, but it boils down

to why am I here?

I genuinely believe what we're
doing here is really valuable,

like, and if people don't, if
you don't understand the why

behind why there is so much
value here, and I think, after

this podcast, if they don't have
a good idea, they either need

to like go back and re-listen to
it or they need to go do some

research because, like we, I
think we cover just about Even

though it may not have been
sequentially in order like we

cover just about every fucking
reason why this place is

valuable.

You know, I mean like percent.

So that's, if you don't
understand the value, if it

doesn't make sense to you,
that's okay.

You just may not be a first
mover.

Speaker 2: Analyze intention.

That's what I tell every single
person who's trying to create a

project, that's trying to put
their art on the blockchain

anything.

Yep, what is your intention?

Why are you doing this?

Is it cash grab?

Go for it.

If you're just here to make a
bunch of money fucking more

power to you, bro Come in there
still that money, cash out and

get your cash grab.

Do what you got to do.

I am not against that.

What I am against is people not
knowing how the fuck they're

here.

Figure out why you're here.

Just figure out your intention.

Just that's all you got to
figure out is, once you figure

out why you're here, then I
Promise you, everything will be

easier and you won't have a real
need to complain, because

you'll know why you're here.

Like you, you're here because
you want to make a podcast.

You want to highlight other
artists me.

I came into the space because I
wanted.

I realized that a bunch of
artists didn't value themselves

the way that they should.

I was like, yep, well, let's
change that narrative real quick

, because I value the shit out
of myself and my art.

So I'm gonna try and teach
everybody else to value their

doubt and there are, and that's
what I do Every single day when

I show up is try to help artists
grow and value what they are.

Because I've done this for 15
years, I know what it feels like

to suck and I want to help
everybody else not feel like

this.

I because, when I met Kath and
she was telling me everything

and I'm like it's time to value
yourself, dude, it's time to

value your art, like she tells
me constantly.

Like, dude, you're the one
person like that really came

forth and told me I can grow and
become something and I'm like I

tell that to everybody,
everybody.

I consistently Nila, the 12
girls I told that her.

There are just so many people
that will actually take that

coach and run with it and that's
when you see the real like.

You can tell that to anyone.

That who's gonna run with it is
the real like.

That's when you're gonna really
see it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean very
small percentage of people

actually will.

You know like it was?

I learned that from my mother,
one of my, one of the most

valuable lessons my mother
taught me she actually not sure

if you're familiar with this,
but like the whole junior

achievement thing and in school,
where you know They'll come in

and talk about their profession
you know certain professions to

these kids and like teach them a
little bit about the real world

, give them a taste of it.

You know, and she's like Kyle,
like I didn't show up there for

the 95% of that classroom.

She's like I showed up there
for the 5% that would stick

around before and afterwards and
ask me questions.

Yeah, she's like I love that's
why that's who I did it for and

it's the same thing.

You know what I mean.

Like we, because most people
aren't gonna get it, most people

aren't gonna take the torch and
run with it, and that's just

the sad reality.

Speaker 2: You know what I mean,
so if you died tomorrow, I

changed Nila's life.

That's how I look at it.

I literally changed a 12 year
old girl's life to where she Can

now have the opportunity to do
whatever she wants, and I showed

her the door for that.

She literally kicked that
fucking door down and herded to

the ground, and then more, more.

It's like, yeah, that though,
if I died tomorrow, knowing that

I affected one person and
changed their life for the

better, dude, what is better
than that?

Like, what are we here for?

You know, it's like that is the
greatest achievement I think

you could ever have is changing
somebody else's life for the

better.

Speaker 1: Couldn't agree more,
man.

That is, I mean, my story, that
that's literally what my story

is is built on.

That is the entire foundation
of everything you know, and

that's I've always been like.

That it's been even even you
know, especially since I got

sober, like that was like my
primary purpose of everything

it's like is to is to help one
person, to show them what I did

to get well and give them the
same opportunity to do that for

themselves.

You know what I mean?

Same thing I did when I got
sober.

Yep, it's the beauty of it, man
.

Speaker 2: There's nothing when
I sober just like quick pills.

Like I'm you, can I still smoke
weed Just sober, as in like

hard trucks, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but
still, dude, that's still a

massive accomplishment.

A lot of people aren't willing
to do, you know, like that's

Coming from a coming from an
opiate addict, a heroin addict,

like that's like that is really
fucking hard to do.

You know what I mean.

So it, but there's no better
feeling than watching someone

else do that.

There's no better feel like
that.

Speaker 2: That is better than
any dope I ever put in my body,

like and I mean, that's what I
learned, yeah, from like those

community meetings, a a meetings
and a means like I went.

All those I can't relate to any
of those people, but what I did

relate to was they seem to be
helping each other and I thought

, well, if I'm a piece of shit
and I can't do anything good

with myself and maybe I can just
help other people, exactly, and

that's how you get out of the
depression, that's how you get

out of your house at your head,
you just help other people.

Speaker 1: Yeah, really fucking
simple.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: I love it bro.

Speaker 1: That's simple, man.

Well, john, dude, this has been
a treat.

We're editing out all the rugs.

So, for everyone who is
watching in just a hail at my

masterful editing skills that
probably aren't that good and to

edit out all the rugs that we
endured for this, john, thank

you so much, man, for coming on.

And, dude, I want to, I want to
like shine the spotlight on you

again.

I know we would Like.

I loved hearing your story
about the gallery and, like your

recent tweet, you know, like
about how you made it through

and how the galleries have also,
like having experienced, like

showing galleries, like made you
so valuable here and what

you've done With that knowledge,
with that experience, to help

other people grow in the space.

But I want to ask, man, is
there anything, any alpha on the

horizon of like what you're
doing next, like what you're

trying to create or any new, any
new boundaries that you're like

trying to push right now?

Speaker 2: You know what I'm
gonna do is I'm holding a huge

event for photographers which is
open, not token gated, so open

to the public, which really
hasn't been done in the NFT

community, which I think is
gonna be amazing.

So tons of photographers, 320
in an FTM, I see, the biggest

gallery event for NFT, and we
see I did it at Art Basel in

Miami, doing it again for New
York.

I think this is so important.

But my next thing that I'm
gonna be doing, I'm gonna be

dropping on some on.

I want to drop a photo on Salon
and because oh dude, yeah, so

long is so important for what
we're doing, for the environment

and just everything.

And, dude, I'm all bullish on
so long.

So my next photo job Salon love
it, dude, I I.

Speaker 1: So I'll tell you, man
, I've been waiting to like

really go into Solana until an
artist has like had the stones

to actually Ment on Solana like
a good.

Like you know what I mean.

Like cuz I just it is so hard
for me to be involved in

Solana's Solana ecosystem, like
I just I can't bring myself to

do it.

Speaker 2: You know, I buy.

Speaker 1: I buy a lot of
Tesla's art, like I love the

Tesla's community.

I love, I love, you know, love
the artwork on there.

Like that works insane,
Unbelievable man.

Speaker 2: I'm so cheap, so
cheap it is so good, it's

criminal.

Speaker 1: It's criminal how
undervalued that that work is.

Speaker 2: No it's, it's stock,
it's stock website all over like

just incredible, just so
undervalued and so good.

Speaker 1: Yep, yep, I, and it's
great, like, because with

Ethereum, I have to think about
the purchases I make.

You know like I get think about
it with with Tesla's.

If I just find some random shit
, I like I just go fucking, but

it's like cool, like, it's like
I can, it's all, just like I can

just throw it at that and like
change you know, and help and

help an artist, change your life
, is just it, and get an amazing

piece of work for it.

Yep, yep, I love that dude, but
so I'm next to me.

Thank you, dude, thank you.

Thank you for sharing that.

So, lastly, john, where can
people find you man?

Where do, where do?

Where do people go?

Where do you want people to go
first?

Speaker 2: You can just go to
Twitter, john now photos.

You can always find me on there
.

I'm the co-founder of rug radio
, so I'm always on rug radio.

You know promoting, you know
inclusivity and trying to get

people voices.

We've got tons of kids on there
.

Yeah, it's killing it.

So you want to find me.

I'm always.

I'm everywhere, dude, I'll.

I'm always at events, I'm
everywhere.

I got purple hair.

It's hard to miss me then, and
you know I'm always screaming.

Speaker 1: We like the cat so
John likes the cat.

Purple hair cats You're gonna.

That's how you find John
exactly.

Cool brother.

Well, hey man, this has been an
absolute treat like I loved.

I love this conversation.

I love that we went like about
a million different directions

and kind of went on some
tangents.

Speaker 2: So, um, it was a good
one.

It was my, one of my favorites.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Schiller

vaulted podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

As we close out today's episode
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Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember, if

you're looking for it, art is
everywhere.

Art is everywhere and it's up
to us to appreciate and explore

the emotions it brings to our
lives.

Until next time.

This is Boona signing off.