Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Schiller

Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sat
down with Jordan Lyle.

Jordan is a true OG in the
crypto and DeFi space.

He is the founder of
Prohibition Art, venturepunk

Skylab and previously worked at
Consensus.

We chat everything from his
love of generative art and took

an in-depth look at the meme
community, the ideas behind

Prohibition Art and how
generative art and NFTs will

eventually eat the world.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Jordan.

And it's awesome, man.

I love that you got the mic
with you, man.

It's a rare treat as a
podcaster to interview.

Most people don't have the mic
set up, so it's really great to

have it there.

Man, how are you, jordan, doing
great Boone, how you doing Good

man, good, it's finally here in
Austin.

It's actually whether where I
want to go outside and do things

Really, you know.

Speaker 2: So it's not 100
degrees, it's only 90 degrees,

or what's the situation?

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's been
for a while.

That was the situation and it
was like wow.

What people didn't understand
is that 86 degrees or 90 degrees

was like a 13-degree cold front
.

You know what I mean.

Like that was.

It took me a little while to
realize that, but it's actually

been high 50s, low 60s in the
morning and it'll get up to high

70s, mid 80s, kind of that
range.

So it's been nice.

Man, that is pretty nice.

Speaker 2: Enjoy it while you
can right, or do you think it'll

be nice for the rest of the
fall?

Speaker 1: So what's interesting
about Texas is that October is

like.

So October and March are kind
of like these wild card months

where you could get an extra
month of summer, but not maybe

as intense, you know, but it's
still.

You're like fuck, this just
doesn't feel like fall, or you

could get super cold, or you
could get cold and rainy, or you

could get really nice weather
like this.

And March is kind of the same
way, where it's Texas doesn't

really know if it's what it
wants to do and it doesn't

really.

I guess it just doesn't compute
or doesn't fully comprehend

what spring and fall means.

So yeah, man, so far so good.

We just take it day by day.

That's really the vibe here.

There you go.

Speaker 2: There you go.

Yeah Well, I hate to brag, of
course, but it's 70 degrees

right now where I'm at at the
beach in Southern California,

and that's probably on the
colder side lately, slightly

cloudy, I think.

When we hit 80 or 85, then it's
like everyone's just tripping

and sweating, Everyone's
complaining and everyone's

horrible.

That's like a nice day for you,
but that would be rough for us.

Speaker 1: Well, I really
appreciate you guys pushing

through that when you guys were
in Austin, because I don't think

we quite hit that massive heat
wave, but it was probably a heat

wave to you when we were there
downtown.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that was pretty
warm man.

Speaker 1: And I remember the
building.

If I remember right, the
building didn't have AC or

wasn't ventilated that well.

If I remember that right.

I haven't flashbacked.

Speaker 2: No, like yeah,
there's no air flow or anything.

So I think that's why we spend
most of the time outside, right.

Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it's kind
of brutal when you know when

you're trying to hang out
outside in Texas, that's how you

know it's rough.

Speaker 2: And I run hot as it
is, I am always just sweating

and like, so I'm always trying
to keep the temperature down and

I'm not used to any humidity,
Like we're at the beach.

So there's like we just don't
get that Used to the dry heat as

well.

So, yeah, I'm just not.

You know, you walk out and
you're just already drenched and

you need to take another shower
.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you and
me are very similar.

We run hot.

I can't tell you why I've lived
in Texas my entire life, but

two years, you know it doesn't.

It suits me well for the
environment that I'm in, I guess

, or for the job description
that, or the, I guess, the

community that I like to spend
most of my time in.

You know, so I guess you could.

Who knows if I would have
actually touched grass more than

I stayed inside if I lived in
Colorado.

I may not be here.

You know the thing in.

Speaker 2: Colorado, like you're
contractually obligated to go

touch grass a couple times a
week.

Right, it seems like everyone
in Colorado goes and they're

outdoorsy and they're very
active.

Speaker 1: Well it's.

I mean there's such a strong
incentive to do so.

I mean there's only there's
only like two places in the

entire state that are just not
drop dead gorgeous, you know,

and it's just everywhere you go
out there's a hiking trail and

it's very similar to California
weather, unless you're like kind

of like in Metropolis, like in
Denver or in like Fort Collins

that's.

You know, they can get a little
toasty there, but anywhere

outside of like the main city
you're going to get really great

like hiking weather and you can
go outside and you cannot dive

heat, exhaustion, and you know
it's just wonderful things that

you don't get here.

Speaker 2: I may have told you,
but we have it spoiled here by

the beach where beach people.

My son actually is a freshman
in high school and for his PE he

goes and surfs twice a week.

So he has high school credit to
go surf every other more.

Speaker 1: That's incredible, I
had no idea that existed.

Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, wow.

Speaker 1: A very.

You know, I I growing up with
the beach like we didn't, I, you

can't, you can't really call
Galveston a beach Like it's.

It's not really, you just can't
, it's like it's the closest

thing to a beach.

Well, I take it back.

Corpus.

We have Corpus Christi.

You know that's, that's, that's
nice beach weather or like

clear water.

But the fact that he gets to do
that and that's he's a freshman

in high school and he gets to
do that, yeah, wow, wow.

Times have changed.

Has that always been like that?

I'm curious.

Speaker 2: I think for the, for
the local high school.

Yeah, that's, that's kind of
always been an option.

You know you pass a swim test
and you have to.

You know there's certain rules,
but yeah, he's every Tuesday

and Thursday, you know, in in
the ocean for an hour and then

he goes to, you know, normal
class, like at 1030.

Speaker 1: What a life man.

That's incredible.

Um, yeah, I was.

I was a swimmer in high school,
for, well, I swam before high

school, so I swam competitively
for 10 years and then, you know,

that includes high school, but
we were, we were in the water at

545 and then, uh, and then we
were in class by first period.

Like, we didn't like, we didn't
have the like.

It would have been great if, if
swim practice started at, like,

first period and that took up
two to three periods of school.

Uh, that would have been
phenomenal, but we didn't get

that luxury.

Um, but, yeah, that's, that's
awesome, man.

Well, I mean, I want to say
thanks for like making some time

, uh, and appreciate you being
flexible for coming on here.

Dude, it's been, you know, for
those that don't know, we've

gotten to like know each other a
little bit over the past couple

of months.

Uh, you know, and working with
you guys with prohibition and

just the more like.

I just got to say like, uh, the
.

You know I I kind of sat by and
watched generative art from the

sidelines in 2021.

I didn't fully.

It wasn't the first art form
that I truly comprehended or

grasped, you know.

So I kind of just, you know I'm
one of those people that I try

to not get involved for the
wrong reasons, like, if it's

like, okay, just because there's
value attached to it.

But if I don't, it doesn't make
me feel anything.

I don't want to.

You know, I don't want to buy
it.

So I kind of sat there quietly
and watched on the sidelines, um

.

And so you guys came around and
, um, it allowed me to be like

to actually approach generative
art in like such a more like

thoughtful way, you know like
where it's like I could take my

time, there was no FOMO attached
to it and I just want to thank

you for like, like having the
spark to do that, cause it's

been, it's been a treat to like
not rush into the genre and

medium that is generative art.

So I massive props and I just
want to appreciate.

I just wanted to thank you
publicly for that.

Speaker 2: Uh, it's so cool to
hear man cause, that's kind of

why we're here, right, that's
kind of what we're doing is like

I had so much fun several years
ago minting on art blocks and,

um, I just want to kind of
transfer that enthusiasm and

give that experience to others,
newcomers to the space, people

like you who have kind of maybe
been on the sidelines, um, you

know, to others who are brand
new or non non native just yet.

Uh, so that really why
prohibition is to hear it is

here, is is to spread, you know,
on chain generative art to as

many people as possible.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it's uh,
and I think you guys are doing

it like, like I said, you guys
have something special there and

there's a lot.

We can unpack that and some of
the decisions behind that um as

well.

But one thing I wanted to take
a little step back is, you know,

you mentioned you had such like
a good time minting, like in

summer 2021.

And when that whole, when the
whole art blocks thing happened,

um, I guess I'm curious, you
know, cause it, there's a lot of

people that this really like it
just really sucked a lot of

people in.

You know, it just drew a lot of
people in.

It was this, uh, it was this
really cool event.

It felt like an evolution, um,
to generate art.

It felt like the right way to
transact it.

So I'm just like, what were
kind of the steps to you even

learning about this art form?

Were you into it?

Into it like before you know
the blockchain existed?

Were you did?

Yeah, just very curious, like
your intro to this.

Speaker 2: Uh, I had actually
launched an NFT platform before

art blocks did.

Um, so, yeah, we can dig into
my whole backstory.

But, uh, summer of 2020, um,
start there for a second summer

of 2020, uh, I and a few few
friends we launched a um, we

launched an NFT platform called
meme.

It was a meme token, and that's
how it's called built by

memecom, and you would stake the
meme token and you would earn

points and then those points
would be redeemable for NFTs.

Um, so I was aware of NFTs.

I was building on NFTs, working
with artists.

Um, I was, I was in deep, uh,
and even then I mean similar to

what you were saying earlier I
was aware of of art blocks, I

was aware of generative art, but
it took me a few times of other

people sharing it, of, uh,
different uh podcasts, different

interviews, reading up on it.

It took several times, uh,
before I got it and got how

interesting it is.

And, to be honest, you know,
when I first minted on art

blocks, it was only because, uh,
things that minted on art

blocks the next day would five X
right.

So it was.

I'm not I don't consider myself
a trader, but it was like, for

a short period of time it was,
it was dumb not to mint because

they were just, uh, they were
just, you know, selling like

crazy in the after, in the after
, uh, you know, in the secondary

.

But it really wasn't until you
know a few, a few experiences of

minting and, uh, you know,
buying off the secondary

generative art.

It's a little bit different
than you, you know, minting

generative art, because when
you're part of the minting

experience, like you don't know
what you're going to get, and

then it's actually you hitting,
uh, the mint button which helps

determine the outcome and the
output.

Um, so it took a few times for
me to get really into why this

is different, why this is unique
, why this isn't, this isn't

like a one of one or an addition
, uh, but once I did, I was, I

was hooked, um, so it's
definitely a process for me as

well.

Speaker 1: But even someone deep
enough into this space, who had

launched for several projects
at that point, uh it, it took me

a while to like sink in about
how unique and special this,

this generative art, you know,
especially long-form gen art

with that, uh, you know how
valuable it was yeah, dude,

that's a, that's a great intro
man, and I, yeah, I mean you, uh

, I'm, I'm happy to kind of have
a through line and piece

together your journey as we go
along here, Cause I mean, it's

deep and I think that's one of
the things that when we started

like working together and when
we started, uh, yeah, just

working together, it was like,
wow, like I, we, we throw the

term around OG a lot, you know,
but it's it's very few, I think,

that are still here, Um, and I
think you've definitely earned

your stripes in a lot of
different ways, and so it's

really, I guess it's really
comfortable to.

First and foremost, thanks for
uh just telling me like you

missed out on generational
wealth.

You know, um, for getting into
it with the wrong reason, for a

financial reason you know I try
to be super I guess I take

myself too seriously in that
respect is like, okay, who gives

the shit if it's a financial
opportunity?

You know, like it, it doesn't
matter why you got there, it's,

I think it matters why you stay,
you know, Um, so it's cool to

hear that.

You know, it's cool to hear
kind of your, your background

into doing that took you a
couple of times.

But was it kind of just like I'm
curious like how you learn

about new art forms, Like was it
kind of like a peer pressure

type of thing, or was it was
there, was there part of it that

just kept you coming back?

Or was it just kind of like a
general confusion of like

missing out on what other people
were, like being elated by, If

that makes sense yeah, it's a.

Speaker 2: That's a good one.

Um, this is a really weird time
in in uh, 2020, summer of 2020,

end of 2020.

Um, I was probably more focused
on building than I was uh,

collecting.

Um, you know, summer of 2020 is
what we call defy summer.

Right In retrospect, you see,
yeah, everyone was really

interested in in defy and uh,
their farming tokens and yield

had just launched wifi.

Um, it was.

It was crazy.

Um, so there is kind of this
opportunity.

I mean, I'd been, I've been in
the States for a long time.

I first got into Bitcoin in 2013
, I believe, and um, so I had,

you know, several ups and downs.

Uh, when I first bought Bitcoin
, it, it jumped up to 1600 or

wherever it was at, and fell
back down to a hundred Um plus.

Then you have the, the, you
know, the market correction of

2018.

Um so I was kind of like used
to market changes and market

swings and the, the cyclical
nature.

Um, so I I had developed over
the years just this thesis of

buy and hold.

Um, so I was never really one
to just buy something because

there's a chance it's going to
go up and try to sell it uh the

next day, or uh, or play some of
these hot potato type of games.

But it was really like from a
sense of building, where I

approached this and I mentioned
the meme platform that we had

launched.

It was really out of a desire
to create something fun and

silly in a sense.

I don't know how deep you want
to get into the meme project,

but it was like we have this
token.

Speaker 1: Go for it.

What's that?

It's deep as you want to go,
man.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot
to discuss there, but, for the

sake of this story, I was
working in crypto at the time,

was working for consensus, the
big blockchain company,

consensus Thinking about, okay,
how do we get more users into

DeFi?

How do we get the normies into
DeFi?

My team and I actually launched
something called the DeFi Score

.

We were thinking a lot about
okay, how do we judge risk with

all these DeFi opportunities?

How does a newcomer see, okay,
if I stake my token here, if I

deposit, if I lend money on this
platform, what's the level of

risk versus lending on another
platform?

We were thinking a lot about
how do we keep this a safe place

for newcomers?

I was doing that by day, by
night.

I was just totally throwing
money into these crazy pools and

getting crazy returns for short
periods of time.

There have been times where I
degen and sometimes it works out

and sometimes it doesn't.

Most times it doesn't.

It was interesting.

During the day, I was thinking
about, okay, how do we protect

new users?

And then by night, I was doing
crazy things and taking risks on

chain.

I posted a tweet and it was a
really stupid tweet and you may

be saying, hey, all your tweets
are stupid.

What do you mean?

I posted a tweet.

It was like a fake product.

People were just like at this
time, people were creating crazy

lending pools and staking pools
and the YAM token was a thing.

And this was before things got
too crazy.

But it was in the height of
this crazy DeFi summer.

People, certain developers if a
certain wallet deploys a new

contract, within minutes, you'd
see tens of thousands, hundreds

of thousands of dollars just
jump into this contract, jump

into this pool, wow.

And then over a course of a
couple hours, you may see a

million dollars in this pool
because those early returns, as

people are just getting into it,
hearing more about it, you

could make a ton of money.

So it was this like developer.

It was this dichotomy between
developers that are just like

launching pools without testing
them thoroughly.

So a lot of people got burned.

How does a newcomer to DeFi,
how do they know how to navigate

this landscape?

There's so many landmines.

Speaker 1: That's a great saying
.

Speaker 2: I love that.

So, by day, again by day,
thinking about, okay, how do we

protect users?

By night participating and
trying not to lose all my money

but just experimenting with it,
and I guess that's another kind

of like.

Key point is just like being
curious, setting aside money

that you know you'll probably
lose, but I want to test it, I

want to see what is this thing
all about.

I'm willing to chalk up 50
bucks to convert it to whatever,

and because at the time I was a
product guy, I was always kind

of curious.

I want to build the next thing.

I want to help users on board.

So, anyways, back to the tweet.

I posted the silly tweet.

I actually made a fake product.

The product was called the
degenerator.

So instead of generator, it's
called the degenerator.

And it was this fake product
that made it really easy.

It was almost like WordPress
for DeFi protocols, where you

click a couple buttons, you type
in a couple phrases and you

choose an emoji, because at the
time a lot of projects back then

had vegetable emojis, had food
emoji.

It was pasta, there was yam,
which I had mentioned, there was

sushi, of course.

So that was kind of like part
of the joke and I posted this

thing that made it.

It wasn't a real product but a
lot of people thought it did.

But it was this mock up of a
fake product that allows you to

quickly spin up DeFi protocols.

I had posted that thinking that
I'd get a few friends to laugh

at it, that a few people would
retweet it.

Within the first few minutes it
took off.

It was really good commentary
on the state that we were in

people building in DeFi.

Again, this was middle of 2020.

It's been now four or five
months into the pandemic.

It was just kind of craziness
and this tweet just took off and

spread virally and everyone was
retweeting it.

I started getting messages hey,
is this on GitHub?

Can I fork this?

Can I use this?

A lot of people wanted to build
their own DeFi protocol and I'm

like no, it's not real, it's
just a joke.

But it was really getting
attention and I made the

decision probably about 45
minutes in after the tweet.

I got to do something with this
.

I got to continue this momentum
and what you did back then is

you started a telegram group.

So I started a telegram group
for the degenerator and there

was a bunch of people that just
jumped in and it was like OK,

what do we do now, I don't know.

And someone had the idea of
launching a token called the

degenerator token, because
that's what you did.

You launch a shit coin or
whatever, and at least that's

what some people do.

One thing led to another and
someone created this token and

they're like well, degenerator
is weird, it's only for people

that got the joke on Twitter.

Let's call it something
different.

So we took a vote.

I didn't have to call it meme
Because the whole point was like

I had created this meme.

So someone actually wrote a
contract and distributed tokens

to all the early telegram
members I believe there were

like 80 people or so in this
channel distributed.

We're getting to NFTs
eventually, don't worry.

No, I'm loving this dude.

This is great.

This meme token no utility at
all.

It was really just for fun.

Hey, let's do an airdrop Maybe.

I just thought it was all kind
of in fun.

Other people had the idea of
pumping it and doing a pump and

dump thing and that worried me a
little bit.

But so this token gets
distributed to 80 people.

I think it was 355 tokens per
person and then someone created

a tokenized using Collabland I
think we were one of the first

Collabland users First
Collabland is back in mid-2020.

One of the first and created a
separate telegram channel that

was token gated to the meme
token.

You had to hold a certain
number and that really kind of

helped spur it along as well.

But now there's a token and all
of a sudden it's like well, we

need to get our token onto
CoinGecko, so someone would

reach out to their friend on
CoinGecko and get the token

listed.

And then someone would be like
oh, we need to create liquidity

pool in Uniswap, so someone
would go do that.

It was this really weird.

It was like a microcosm for
crypto at large of like Wild

People just kind of coming
together.

Oh, I know this guy, I'll
message him.

Or I know this Totally.

Like watching it unfold.

I, just two hours before I had
made a stupid tweet on Twitter

Friday night it was probably
like 10 PM my time and this

thing was creating itself.

It was like had a mind of its
own and it was really insane and

some people were like shilling
it to others oh, this is

launched by Jordan Lyle,
consensus.

I was like, oh crap, this could
end badly.

Why are you through dumps and
dumps and everyone hates me.

My, I'm doxxed, everyone knows
who I am.

Like I don't want consensus to
get mad if somehow this goes the

wrong direction because I'm
attached to them.

So I end up just like trying to
distance myself and I'm like,

well, maybe that's not the right
thing to do.

What do I do?

I build products.

Why don't we give the token
some utility?

So there was a group of us and
we're just kind of putting our

heads together Like it'd be cool
to build something where we

actually created utility for
this token rather than it being

just a total shit coin, right,
right, we had a lot of ideas

Maybe it's doge for DeFi, where,
like, primarily it's a meme

coin, but like maybe it does
some other things and you can

stake it.

And we were just thinking, okay
, what are what's cool, what's

memeable these days?

As mentioned, you know, it was
DeFi Stummer.

So everyone was staking tokens
and trying to farm tokens and

NFTs just started getting
interesting again.

It was in the year 2020.

Couple projects that were like,
oh, this could be interesting,

this could be cool.

You know, quick, quick
backstory of like, what got me

into Ethereum in 2017 was
CryptoKitties.

So, like, that's my entrance
into the whole space is NFTs.

I met a mask so that I could
get some kitties, and I knew all

about punks.

I knew all about punks, but
it's like man, these kitties,

these are cool because you could
breed them and I just you know,

then you get so many different
variations and the art is cool.

So I went, I went that path.

So, like I had always kind of
kept my eye on NFTs and what was

going on with one of one sales
and other kind of like those,

those, you know, those those
gamified types of CryptoKitties

projects and stuff.

But then it hit us of like, wow,
what if you could actually farm

for NFTs?

So again, this is, you know,
middle of the night on a Friday

in August of 2020.

What if you could stake meme
tokens and earn points?

We ended up calling them
pineapple points because that

was emoji.

I happened to choose the
pineapple.

What if you could earn?

If you can earn pineapple
points and then redeem those

pineapple points, exchange them
for NFTs.

So we hired this is like in the
course of a weekend, we hired

an artist to create a bunch of
like meme NFTs little little

silly cartoons and a week later
so from the tweet to deploying

the project, I think was like 10
days, wow and worked with these

really cool developers and
designers, eric and Chris, who

became, you know, my partners in
crime there launched this the

meme platform V1, at the end of
August of 2020.

And the whole idea was pretty
straightforward.

You know, it was like man, you
don't need to have a bunch of

ETH to get NFTs.

Like you don't need to be an
ETH whale to mint NFTs.

What you need is you need to
put in the work.

So it's almost like proof of
work.

It was totally you stake token
and you come back at the right

time, then you're able to mint.

You have enough points, then
you're able to mint these things

and there are different levels
of rarity, and then, a couple of

weeks after that, we're said
well, there's something

interesting here.

A lot of people are taking
notice.

Why don't we work with real
artists?

And, you know, put a spin on it
and make it more about the art.

So we worked, you know, at the
end of 2020, we worked with some

really great artists Fo Woshes
was one of our original artists.

Incredible Jonathan Wolfe A
bunch of really great big comic

art.

A bunch of really cool artists
that have gone on to do some

really amazing work.

But it was just like man.

There needs to be an easier way
to collect or make collecting

fun.

It was a weird situation now
where we have this token and

this token is pumping because
you need to get in order to get

the art and NFTs are starting to
pick up again, so it was like

there was high demand to get
this token.

At one point this token was in
the top 100 of CoinGecko.

Wow, the airdrop.

If you had, most people had
sold.

I sold a bit, but if you had
held the airdrop and sold at its

pico top, it would have been a
million-dollar airdrop.

Wow, some people got a lot of
money.

I rode it all the way back down
, but it was insane.

Like there's so many more
stories in there that would be

cool to write an article or
something, but it was early.

Like PFPs weren't even a thing
by that point.

They were like a year old,
right.

So it was interesting how the
community responds to this idea

and we all want this thing to
grow.

Some are okay pumping it and
hurting others.

Others are interested in
preserving the reputation.

So this is still 2020.

So this is like Top Shot was
brand new, right, I bought brand

new.

So I really became.

I got deep into this space as a
builder, as someone who was

excited about working with
artists.

The past the previous few years,
was about crypto and DeFi and

the tech side of it.

So now it was like wow, there's
a real reason why this tech

exists and we're actually
providing a utility to artists.

We're helping artists earn a
living.

Up until now, you can't really
sell your digital art, but now

digital artists are able to earn
an income off my little

platform.

That started out as a joke like
literally started out as a joke

.

So we're at this weird thing
where this token is pumping and

what do we do?

Because we just airdropped it
to everybody.

We didn't have a developer fund
, we didn't have a team holding

any tokens, so the business
model was really really weird.

It was completely opposite of
what you'd normally do.

We did meme first and then the
token and then the product.

Usually you do it the other way
, but one thing led to another

and we essentially kind of sold
off the tech to a new company

and handed over the existing
platform to the community.

Unfortunately, that didn't go
very well and the community, or

certain community members, one
in particular kind of ran into

the ground, but we were able to
parlay it into a new company

called Nifty's that I ended up
co-founding.

But those few months of
literally nothing to creating

something in a short amount of
time, it was unlike anything

else.

The friends that I made during
that time, the experiences

gained I guess like the
notoriety of the following that

I was then given on Twitter
trying to navigate my day job at

Consensus and how do I make
this NFT thing full-time.

It was a wild second half of
2020 and early 21.

It was insane, man, and that
just there's a lot we can dive

into there.

But that really it lit the fire
of like, wow, this tech, when

used for the right reasons, can
do some really special things

and helping artists, creating a
collecting experience that is

communal and fun.

As you can imagine, as we now
think of prohibition, those are

common threads, right?

Yeah, totally.

You can certainly think about
that until later, but like,

that's kind of always been the
vibe you know.

Speaker 1: The through line
Crazy.

Yeah, yeah, dude, I mean I
think just the best part about,

I mean, my first takeaway of
that and, before I say it, thank

you for like going really deep
into that man, because I came in

early 2021.

No, dude.

Well, that's why we do a
podcast.

Very good, that's why it's
Listeners.

Speaker 2: feel free to skip
ahead.

Speaker 1: I don't know if I'll
hold it against you.

That's why it exists, though,
but I think that a lot of people

though including myself,
because I came in in 2021, so

before that to me is kind of
like just this mystical land

that existed well before I came
in.

I knew about crypto, all I knew
about crypto.

I didn't have anything against
it, but I was just one of those

people of I wasn't at the point
where I was super curious about

it.

I wasn't really in a curious
stage of my life yet, and I just

saw the number pumping.

I'm like, okay, but what do I
spend it on?

Like, why is this valuable?

You know, like to me, the way I
think about things is like

until I can spend it on
something, it to me, is useless.

You know what I mean?

Like I wasn't fully in my
investor mindset.

I didn't understand store value
.

I didn't understand.

I just didn't understand any of
the things that I now have a

better grasp on today, that I'm
still learning on, so I kind of

just watched it happen.

So these stories are incredible
, and it reminds me of a lot of

the reasons why I came here and
some of the same feelings that

you mentioned of like something,
like things just happened from

nothing.

I think what really is super
magical about the story is that

people just randomly wanted to
support it for, I guess, for the

cause, you know what I mean
Like there's this, like the

cause, or like you know, and I
think that's different with each

project, but I think it's
really fascinating to watch

something that came from a, from
what you call a stupid tweet

and it may have been, you know,
but I think that's the.

I'm going all over the place,
but the one of my favorite parts

is that I judge myself so heavy
for some tweets, you know, or

just like you know, that's just
going to be a dumb idea, that's

going to be a dud, you know, or
that's just going to be, but you

just never know.

Like, you just absolutely never
know, like what can happen as a

result of like kind of
following that childlike

intuition, if you will, you know
, and just kind of letting

letting something run for the
sake of letting it run and

seeing a bunch of people form
around it, because your stories

or that's that one story, I'm
sure you have many more.

Those were some of the very
similar things that happened to

me when I came in in early 2021
about, like why this thing was

valuable, like what was so fun
about it?

It's these like I don't know
man, it's just super wholesome,

I guess, is the right word to
use.

You know yeah.

Speaker 2: I think we're all
just trying to like recreate

those experiences, right, and it
takes a few more cycles for

some people Like I mean, there
are a lot of opportunities that

I missed just because I didn't
get it.

But like training your mind of,
like setting aside what's, you

know what sounds reasonable, and
like suspend this belief a

little bit.

Okay, I can, I can see why some
people might find this valuable

, but for some people like you,
need to be hit over the head

Because it's, it's weird, it's
it's so, it's so different from,

from what a lot of people are,
you know, conditioned to to

think.

Speaker 1: And I think it's
really interesting how you, you

know, building products here is
the the meme comes first and

then the product comes last.

It's a very counterintuitive
way to to think about things.

You know.

It's like typically, people
have to build a product in the

current I guess for lack of a
better term, just because I'm

lazy right now like in the
traditional way of building

businesses and web.

Two is that you have to have a
product before the memes can

exist.

But I don't know, I but I.

But I also know that I think
about that.

Some of some of my favorite
brands started from like my like

, where I buy my beard product.

That started as like a, a
memeable men's blog.

You know what I mean, and it's
like.

It started about one dude, you
know, just blogging about beard

oil.

You know what I mean Like, and
so you know, and then products

came from that later.

So it's kind of it's kind of an
interesting model.

Speaker 2: But so you know, all
over the place it's like I mean,

that's the creator model and
like ticked, tickers, put out a

con, put out content, create
their own brand and then begin

selling their own products.

So I think that's that's where
we're at and I think it's it's

all storytelling, right?

That's why I really love
branding and like creating a

product and creating a community
, and it all starts with the

idea first and the meme first.

So, yeah, even getting into
prohibition, it was like I don't

want it to be XYZ chain or XYZ
platform or whatever.

Like there needs to be a story,
I need to get behind it Totally

, and so that's that's what's
some of the most fun time.

Product building is just like
coming up with, with the

narratives you know.

Speaker 1: Do you think you
could ever go back to building

products, not in crypto?

Speaker 2: I don't think so.

It doesn't move quick enough.

It doesn't.

The stakes aren't as high.

I can't imagine doing something
outside of like crypto maybe,

maybe IAI or space or something
like that.

Where it is, there's so much
unknown, still yet to be like

invented, but yeah, I can't
imagine not having this.

You know, this type of industry
that just evolves so quickly.

Speaker 1: Totally dude.

I feel the same way and I was
very curious from like a super,

from a product builders
perspective, because it just it

seems like once you cross the
chasm, like there's this like

point of no return, where it's
just there's, it just doesn't

make sense and I feel that the
and I this may sound real

nebulous, but kind of like the
way I've been thinking about

things like you look at products
like phones, for example.

Like you look at how small the
innovation is on iPhones now.

Like you look at like the gap
between the 14 and the 15.

And there's just it's not much,
you know.

Like we essentially buy phones
because the batteries in the old

ones we were on Twitter way too
often, you know and and they

just destroys our battery and
that's the reason why we're

buying new one.

Speaker 2: But I feel like every
year, just for context, like

I'm stupid and probably paying
more than I need to, but I have.

I have the plan where I can get
a new one every year is because

, even though it's not a minor
upgrade, I like having them, the

cool new gadget, you know dude,
I'm the same way.

Speaker 1: This was the first
time since.

So I I bought the first one up
to the five, like I was an every

year iPhone guy up to the five,
then, kind of like, in my

opinion, the six to the nine,
for the meme that it was, that

it was not.

It was probably the worst in my
opinion, the worst couple years

of iPhone models, because it
was just there wasn't, there

wasn't anything fun, there
wasn't anything exciting like

the there was.

You know, in the first five
iPhones there was some really

incremental shifts between
between models and it was really

enticing to spend that.

So I went to camp galaxy and
Google phone.

For, like you know, I had, like
the, the galaxy SA, and then I

had the galaxy note and then I
had the Google phone and then I

came back to Apple.

I had to take that left curve,
like that left turn, you know,

because it was just I couldn't
get behind it.

But I'm, it's nice to hear.

So I say that this is the first
time I actually had the iPhone

13.

Before I just bought the 15 pro
or the pro max.

This is the first year where I
actually had two years in

between phone models and I like
I'm like really proud of myself

for that, because I'm typically
like you, I'm an every year kind

of guy and I probably spend way
too much money on like one

minor, like hardware upgrade or
like a slightly better battery.

But it just to me, you know,
even when it comes to like you

know some of these like kind of
bootleg service providers where

you can like watch unlimited
sports, it's like yeah, but the

voice is slightly off, or like
you can't watch it on your phone

, or you can't like there's the,
the, the.

It's worth paying the full
experience, or like paying for

it.

For the full experience, in my
opinion, and that's how they get

us, is that that, that
composability, I guess?

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.

And just like we're getting
older and like we don't want to

go to that.

So it was like pirating
software anymore.

Now you just paid 40 bucks a
month and you get access to

Photoshop and all the other apps
.

And it's interesting how, yeah,
the things we did back then and

how things change, and I don't
even you know.

Back to the phone, it's like,
well, now I can get a 5x

telephoto lens.

Like, yeah, I kind of want that
.

It doesn't make sense.

Hey, however much you know the
plans where you pay per month

just so you can upgrade at the
end of the year, it's, it's,

it's not too bad, but it's like
now my, my, both my kids have

phones, but I don't want them to
get a new one every year.

So I'm trying to like balance
out my own tech addiction with,

like trying to be a good example
here.

It's interesting.

Speaker 1: I was about to say
every.

You know that's a.

I had a.

I think I have a question on
that is that you know it's.

It's always interesting when I,
when I give advice to other

people, I always uncover the,
the hypocrisy within myself of

like you know, like, wow, I'm
not doing anything of what I

just said you know, and how can
I just, how can I teach someone

to do, to like form good habits,
when mine are horrendous?

You know, um, yeah, um, curious
what you're like as it, because

here's so I, when I got into
crypto, like I'm, like I'm a

single dude and it's real easy
because my only responsibility

is a dog.

You know you're a parent.

You know you have a wife, you
have a family.

What do you like?

What do they think about all of
this?

Like this, like appetite for
this kind of like high risk

tolerance, like risk tolerant
industry, or this, uh, this new

found, I guess, frontier, do
they?

Are they like fully supportive
of it?

Do they?

Do they question your sanity
often, do they?

I'm very curious to understand
this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's.

It's been a process for my wife
.

Um, my kids were kind of born
into it, so they know, know

nothing else.

Like I've always, even before
crypto, I was doing stupid web

and mobile app ideas and, uh, I
mean we didn't even get into it.

But like I made an app that
lets you talk to Santa Claus, uh

, 10 years ago and like, uh, we
were, we were all you know.

So my kids got to be beta
testers this app and they got to

talk to Santa and like, I've
always been just like doing

weird stuff, weird apps, and I I
try to build the things that I

think are cool, uh, and
sometimes there's a market for

them, um, so I think that
they're, they're, they've kind

of been conditioned, they know,
they know nothing else.

Where I don't have, you know, a
normal nine to five, I haven't

since they've been really little
and um, but my wife, uh, she is

very supportive, um, she's been
along for the ride.

She puts up a good front.

Sometimes it it's, uh, it's.

You know, I've we've moved
around a lot.

We've, uh, we've kind of been,
uh, you know, operating without

a safety net.

Sometimes in the previous years,
with different entrepreneurial

ventures, she's been a trooper,
um, but it's, it's tough

sometimes, you know, um, yeah,
and she'll even tell the story

of like, uh, hey, uh, I I got, I
got a job in crypto and we're

going full-time crypto and she's
, and she, she would be like,

well, I know that's kind of been
your hobby, but I didn't, I

didn't realize you could
actually make a career out of it

.

So, you know, for the last six
years now, being full-time in

crypto, um, I think she's
starting to come around.

She's.

I mean you, you met her in in
Marfa and she, she came to Marfa

and I mean she went to events
even without me.

I was in, I was in bed, and she
went and and partied.

Uh, she is, um, it's not her
second nature to be on, you know

, as tech curious as we all are,
Uh, but she loves the community

, loves the people.

I think she just now, after
Marfa, got the whole uh idea

around, like generative art and
what, what that's all about, um,

so it was kind of fun to bring
them along on the journey, but

it it, like you know, like we've
been saying, it just takes

people, uh, you know it's, for
some people it's a, it's a, it's

a harder, uh, more uphill
battle, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally,
I, I, I just my hat's off to, to

the dads and the, and the
husbands and the wives and the,

the people with significant
others, because I feel like, I

feel like, in a way, it probably
keeps you grounded in a sense

you know of, like, you know to
make sure your head doesn't get

too far up in the clouds, uh,
you know to to to have a sense

of reality.

But, um, I think it's a really,
I think it's a really

interesting concept.

I just think, like man, like,
even just talking to my parents

about this, I have to really
water it down to its simplest

form to try to tell them what
I'm doing on a daily basis.

And it wasn't until they saw
results of like, I made a good

flip and I covered some of my
debt.

They were like, okay, like,
maybe we'll start paying

attention to this because you
got something for free, you

flipped it for 25 grand and you
made a smart financial decision

with that 25 grand.

Like, maybe we'll start paying
attention.

Yeah, it's a trip.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I know everyone
has those types of stories and

it is difficult and I think
there is for the parents out

there.

I don't know, we should
probably wear that as a PFP or

have some sort of badge on
Twitter, because it's when you

meet other parents on or in this
space, it's like, okay, extra

respect, because it is difficult
to.

I mean, the nature of this
business makes you kind of be

online and present a lot more
often than you would like to,

and that's a challenge for
myself and a lot of others is

finding time to disconnect.

But part of what makes us
successful in this space is by

being in the know and knowing
what's going on and being

opportunistic and shipping early
and making these right

decisions and making these
friends and networking

opportunities.

So unless you're active, it's
hard to, it's hard to bring

value and receive value in this
space.

So now we're in a startup and
it's a crypto startup, and so

it's like stacking all these
things stacking up against you

and now that like you have to,
not have to, but you want to

spend time with your family.

So it's like how do you get
this all in?

How do you stay on top of new
tokens or new NFT projects, and

that's kind of why I like the
bear market in general Totally.

It's because you don't have to
be on top of everything

necessarily.

You can kind of, even though
there is some, there is still a

baseline of knowledge that you
have to get every day.

There's still like you can
spend more time building.

So, yeah, that's.

I don't know how I do it.

I'm thankful that my kids still
know who I am.

I try to schedule it, put it in
my calendar, and my kids are

getting older now, so it's try
to just spend as much time with

them as I can Do they take an
interest in what you do.

Speaker 1: I think, to a certain
extent, my daughter is artistic

.

Speaker 2: She's a dancer, she
likes to draw, so she kind of

resonates with some of the art
side.

My son is a gamer and a tech
junkie as well, so he gets you

know that kind of stuff.

You know the NFT stuff.

He gets digital value because
you know he's spending or at

least in the past he spent a lot
of money on Fortnite skins and

things and V-Bucks and like the
whole the digital money concept

was not a big.

He's already dealing with
digital money right Now, totally

, you know.

So it wasn't that big a deal of
like.

Okay, imagine you can take
V-Bucks to another game, or

imagine you can take that
shotgun to the next popular game

.

So that was not too much of a
lead for them.

I think they just get it.

Everything is digital.

Like you know, their allowance
is through an app and so it's

just gonna be.

I mean, it's just a matter of
time until we get the old people

out of here and the new, the
newcomers, the next generation.

It's just gonna be obvious.

So it's just a matter of time
till mass adoption.

Speaker 1: Totally dude.

So let me ask you what do you
think?

There's a couple more questions
I have, but one thing that just

sparked is, you know, we talk
about mass adoption and we talk

about, like, what that's gonna
look like, and everyone tries to

predict the future.

And you know, back in like 2020
, you know 2020, we had this

kind of like rumbling in art,
you know, and then you had Nifty

Gateway and then you had our
like our blocks was definitely

around, but I feel like it that
you know, summer of 2021, it

just like, well, then you had
the Beeple sale and then you had

, you know, board apes, and then
you had V-Friends, and then you

had just massive mania of our
blocks, you know.

So do you think that, like, I
guess it follows the same

patterns as before?

Do you see some of those same
patterns like emerging, do you?

I guess, where I always you
know where I'm kind of like

tripped up, is that?

Or I guess not tripped up, but
I'm just like, okay, pfcs were

fun.

You know, art is clearly, you
know, has and always will be the

play for most things, but I
just feel like we're at the spot

where it's like, okay, pfcs are
dead.

What's it gonna take Is the
simple question.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, after
having been through, you know

now, a decade of my crypto
journey, seeing ups and downs

and seeing certain things take
off and then fall back down.

There's a lot of junk out there
, there's a lot of crap out

there, but it would have been a
dumb move to totally ignore

Bitcoin after it first crashed
right, or Ethereum after it

first crashed, or, you know,
when NFTs came around.

It would have been a bad move
to lose focus on DeFi.

I think I liken it to like the
earlycom bubble of like

everything on the internet
crashed hard, but that's when

you know Amazon was built,
that's when PayPal was built,

that's when you know
app-arromated resurgence.

So if you were ignoring tech
completely, then you totally

missed the boat.

So for me, it's like okay, what
are the things of value in the

last few years that we can pull
out?

And it's still really hard to
not fomo into projects and to

like make assumptions and to
attribute past success to future

success.

It's really hard to like take
the emotions out of it, and I'm

guilty of like doing a bunch of
stupid stuff and selling things

at the wrong time and holding
onto things when I shouldn't.

But each wave like you learn a
little bit more and you learn

about how the market works,
about how humans work, how you

yourself work, how you think and
how you have to kind of protect

yourself from getting too
excited, getting too high,

getting too low.

So you start to build up this
kind of tolerance or this kind

of like protection or framework
for yourself.

I feel so strongly for Bitcoin
and Ethereum.

I think there are gonna be a
lot of other chains and tokens

that find favor, but I just know
that those two platforms aren't

going anywhere.

I owned a bunch of NFTs over
the year.

I still do.

It would have been millions of
dollars that I sold at the high.

I did okay, but definitely made
some really bad decisions and

not holding onto things and
selling things at the wrong time

.

So it's maybe human nature to
think, okay, what's gonna be the

next thing that pops?

I think part of it is being
open to those types of things

and maybe it's gaming, maybe
it's VR related, maybe it's

social tokens or whatever.

So what I try to do is just be
aware of what's going on, try to

pull out some like mental
models of the past few years,

try to find the common threads
here, be curious and

experimental, but don't go too
crazy.

Where you're risking money you
can't lose.

I think what we've seen I think
DeFi's gonna be around it wasn't

just some flash in the pan.

Like to create a financial
infrastructure without a

middleman that allows anyone to
get a loan if they've got the

collateral, like that's
something that needs to exist

right, totally, when we think a
few years out, art is something

that's going to need to exist
forever, right.

We think about first principles
and one of the things that

people have been doing for
centuries, millennia, is being

around art and creating art in
one form or another.

So it makes sense that, like,
of course the art is digital, of

course the art uses a
blockchain which allows us to

trustlessly trade it and secure
it and fractionalize it and

financialize it.

Everything becomes natively
digital of course our money, of

course our financial
infrastructure, of course these

digital assets, of course art,
collectibles, gaming assets.

So it's like just trying to
find those things that you know

that you have conviction in and
moving forward.

So it's really hard to kind of
take a guess on what's next, but

I know, like some of the things
, that when I look back, some of

the things that stand out,
that's why I'm making a bigger

bet on art.

I think it's more than just
like, oh, if you're an artist in

web two, you're gonna become an
artist in web three, or if

you're a painter, you're gonna
become a digital artist.

I think it's more than just the
one-to-one kind of skeuomorphic

model here.

I think so many more people are
gonna become through this

technology, are gonna become
interested in art, and so many

of us had maybe a passing
interest, but it wasn't really

until NFTs and, for many of us,
generative art, where it finally

clicked and we're something
that we're really excited about

and spend a lot of money on.

So I think it's gonna be this
Cambrian explosion.

It's gonna be.

It's really gonna level up just
the amount of people that care

about art, that think about art,
that create art.

I think there's not a lot of
people consider themselves

artists.

I mean, it's a simple, maybe
silly example, but I've never

considered myself an artist.

I always had a sense for design
.

I feel like I have a good eye,
always thinking about it in

terms of a product sense and
good usability, good design of a

product.

But several months ago I
launched my own art collection.

It just goes to show that, like
I think there's untapped

creativity, untapped artistry,
that it used to be scratch on a

cave wall and then it became
paint brushes, and then it

became a camera, and then it
then becoming code, and then

they're all kind of merging
together to create new forms

that we haven't thought about.

So I think more people should
consider themselves artists and

I'm just very bullish on
generative art, digital art and

that really being a thing that
brings in a lot of people to

this web three world.

I know that by thinking about
that, I'm probably missing out.

On gaming or by social or
whatever.

I have a tendency to like try
to do a bunch of different

things at once and like always
moving on to the next shiny

object.

So in launching prohibition
it's like okay, what are the

things?

Now that I have been in this
space for a long time, what are

the things I know are true and
have a strong belief in?

And I think we're just barely
scratching the surface in terms

of generative art, in terms of
digital art via NFTs.

So that's where I've just
placed my time, you know.

Speaker 1: I yeah, I mean, I
feel like we have a lot of

similarities in that sense of I
mean, I never considered myself

even just a step further back in
art collector.

You know, this is a whole.

I think what this has done is
transformed, or it's opened the

door to a lot of people to start
exploring what is collecting

art even mean.

How does it make me feel?

What's my role in this?

And I think to your point,
though, and I think prohibitions

played a really big role in
this, and there's a question at

the end of this that I'm excited
to ask you, but it's like I

think what's really cool to
reflect on is that, just like

what you said, because when I
talk to my mom about generative

art, she's like well, it's code.

She's like there's this
disconnect between art and code.

There's this it can't be code.

She's like I don't think of
people that the coders that I

worked with.

I don't consider them artists,
but it's like, okay, but what if

they could be?

What if that could exist?

And something that I think and I
wrote this in that tweet a week

or so ago I think one of my
most favorite things about like

the idea that you brought with
prohibition is the matchmaking

concept, because I think it's
been really cool to see.

The first example that comes to
mind, obviously, is Ed Balloon.

Of him, he is not a coder, but
he found a coder with an

artistic vision, or he was able
to take his artistic vision,

combine that with code and make
something completely unique, and

I think that I think to me that
is like that's something that

excited me when we first started
working together and then it's

still exciting to this very day.

I think that's the limitless
potential of this is that

there's a lot of curiosity now,
and I think what you guys have

done is like open the doors to a
whole new level of art form and

that it yeah and I don't even
know what that's called it could

just be called matchmaking, it
could just be called generative

art, but I think it's a really
interesting thing.

So the question I have is it's
a really roundabout way of

asking this is if you could have
a collab, if you could have

your dream matchmaking scenario.

Which like what two, like what
artists would you wanna see with

a?

Like, if you have a specific
coder in mind, with a certain

artist in mind, like what would
be your ideal matchmaking?

Speaker 2: Oh man.

Well, the question was who do I
see myself collaborating with,

like the dream collaborator
matchup with me?

Yeah, I wouldn't.

I would be able to point to the
thing I just launched, which is

Heart and Craft with Snotro.

I mean, never in a million
years did I think I'd be able to

collaborate with the creator of
this Chromie Squiggle.

Like, I'm still, you know,
pinching myself thinking about

that.

Like that was just such an
amazing opportunity.

But it speaks to the larger
vision of like collaboration

that we're trying to push
forward at prohibition.

When I think about like dream
matchups of other people, I

would love to see more, just
like I've done this.

Like without, without Jalil,
without Jalil, there's no Jack

Butcher, right?

Jack Butcher has like amazing
skills on his own.

He has amazing vision, artistic
vision, he's got something to

say, but without Jalil writing
the smart contracts, then it

wouldn't mean as much as his
projects mean today.

So, even if, like, I just think
there's so many projects yet to

be released that have this
built-in component, whether it's

generative art or not, like now
it's interactive, now it's

composable, now it's now you can
actually, you know, experience

your art in a new way, and it's
stuff that requires developers.

So, yeah, more than just
generative stuff.

It's like developers are now
becoming part of the thing,

which is really exciting.

I work with a couple of
developers on my team Thomas

Dory and I would love to see
them work with an artist and

collab on some things.

They're amazing developers on
their own visual as well, but,

like, pairing them up with an
artist would be really fun.

They're busy because they're
building a platform, but that

would be fun.

You guys mentioned, you know
I've been working with artists

since 2020 and I have kind of
developed my own kind of list of

favorite artists.

So I'm actually reaching out to
many of them, trying to like,

pick their brain and plant a
seed of like what have you

always wanted to do that
requires coding, or what's a

dream generative collection that
you would want to see?

So, yeah, it's a lot of these
artists that haven't yet you

know that are doing.

One of ones I'm a big fan of
Jonathan Wolfe, big fan of Brian

Brinkman.

He's done generative, course,
but those unique styles

Fawocious.

I would love to see some of
those types of artists that I've

been friends with for the past
couple of years that have, like,

their unique style.

I'd love to see what, like, put
them in a room with a next

level developer and what do we
get?

Totally, I love these.

I just think, like mashing up
these different forms of media

is super interesting, right,
like music videos are

interesting because you get the
music and the visual, and now we

have generative art that also
has music.

Like just mixing all these
things has been super fun, or

making it interactive, you know,
stepping inside it.

And I'm excited about the
future of like AR and VR, of

like, yeah, your NFT maybe it's
the still frame version, but

like there's so much more than
what you see up front and it

actually represents something
that you can, you know, step

into a world that you can live
in.

Yeah, I'm just really excited
to see what's to come, and I

don't think we're ready for it.

I don't think our brains are
even ready to see what's next,

dude?

Speaker 1: yeah, I mean there's
a lot.

Yeah, there's a lot, you know,
I think we're just, I think

we're at the early stage and I
think you guys are definitely

people that spearheaded that or
pioneered that idea, that

concept, and it's got to feel
really cool.

You know, and I'd be remiss to
not talk about, you know, heart

and craft a little bit here
before we start wrapping things

up.

But I think the real quick,
before I go to that, is that I

think that this interesting
mixup of generative art is

something that you just said.

That made me think a little bit
is that.

I mean you look at as high of a
level example as TikTok, you

know, like the best content is
mashups.

It's taking one piece of
content and adding commentary on

top of it, or doing a duet,
sing along, or, like you know,

singing along, maybe not live,
or like finding some funny way

to add value or add an
additional commentary to what

was already created.

And I feel like this is that,
but with generative art.

Like I feel like this is that,
but with fine art, you know what

I mean.

It feels like there's this
really cool thing that's

happening where.

It's like this is that, but
with more established art, I

guess, is the way to say that,
yeah, yeah, and it's really

great dude.

Speaker 2: Peanut butter and
chocolate is better than peanut

butter or chocolate, like the
two things together.

Just, you know, just thinking
about the art and craft project,

it turned out to be so much
better than I had envisioned, so

much better than Snowfrog had
envisioned.

But it's me kind of bringing my
product sensibility and my you

know, my, my own approach and my
own taste to the project.

And then, of course, him taking
it a mile further with his

color, you know, with what's
going on in his brain when it

comes to color theory, and just
his experience with squiggles

and him being able to create
these gradients just from his

head, and it he'll say the same
thing Like, working together,

putting two heads together,
you're able to take it to a

place that, like it shouldn't be
this good, you know, like I

mean, it's just a spirit of,
like, collaboration and

composability gets the word gets
thrown around a lot, especially

when it comes to DeFi, because
we're building, like these open

source money Legos is what we
used to say in DeFi where it's

like, okay, you're going to
build this concept of USDC, so

I'm going to go over here and
build a lending platform, and

then, oh, if you want a lending
platform, you're going to need

this and really it's.

It's been really cool to see
open source software just kind

of build on itself.

And the same thing goes with,
like creative endeavors of like

two people from different walks
of life, two people from

different you know just ways of
thinking and different skill

sets.

They're able to put their heads
together and create something

magical.

Yeah, so it's something that
we're thinking a lot about.

Of course, there are some
people out there that are just

geniuses on their own.

Like Tyler Hobbs doesn't need
to be working with anybody,

right, like he is just, you know
, he's the unicorn.

But for a lot of us, I think we
should be exploring the

collaborations.

We've seen a lot of collabs in
the past, many collabs in

generative art.

Like the developer goes unnamed
and that's okay.

That's fine too if that's the
arrangement.

But I think we need to start
calling out like all the parties

involved and you know we're
able to do that and split the

contract and make sure everybody
gets paid.

But it's really cool that like,
okay, we're going to give the

guy who came up with the idea
he's going to get a percentage

of the take, and then the person
who was, like the creative

director, they're going to get a
slice of the pie the person who

did the music.

They're going to get a slice of
the pie.

Someone who did the sound
effects.

You know, it's going to be
really cool to like see more and

more artists building off of
each other.

One thing that we haven't really
scratched yet we've been

thinking about for a long time
is remixing and remix culture.

Imagine you create something,
you market a CCO.

I take your work and I build on
top of it.

Maybe create my own spin.

If someone goes and buys my NFT
downstream, you'll get paid

because I used your STEM or
whatever you want to call it

right?

Yeah, it would be cool to think
like building off of each other

, like actually making part of
that, like the flywheel, and

like building it into the
platform.

So, yeah, again, I just think
we're really early here, as we

always say, and it's going to be
so fun to watch.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, I mean
that's a.

You've introduced a lot of new
concepts.

I mean the, because that's the
current.

I guess you could.

There's a lot of issues around
new media and copyright, and you

know what's.

You know what's copying, what's
not, and I think this is a

great use case to try to for
lack of a better term fuck

around and find out.

You know, it just makes sense
because people are doing it

anyway.

You know it's like it's
oftentimes, you know the what's

really fascinating and I'm just
going to take a small tangent

and come back to this for a
minute but you look at, like CSO

, like which is, you know,
counter-strike is one of the

largest esports you know and you
look at these trading platforms

like they're going to find a
way to trade skins anyway.

You know so, like why not give
people an actual, equitable and

trustless way to do it?

You know what I mean, which,
just as a side note, just

constantly blows my mind like
why a lot of people in the

gaming world are still against
it.

It's like we're not trying to
change the system, we're just

trying to make it better so you
don't get fucked over, so you

don't get like, so nothing bad
happens, right, cause I think

there was a.

There was just another massive
sale six figure sale for a

Counter-Strike weapons game, you
know, which is absolutely mind

boggling.

But I think that I'm excited to
watch what you guys, what you

guys do here.

You know, I think it's a really
it's a fun idea and I'm glad

that we're involved with it in
some way, shape or form.

You know, it's been a treat to
be alongside for the ride.

But one thing that actually you
actually inspired me in Marfa

to, because there was a, you
know, dmitri Triniot released

his like an iterations of the
ringer for LACMA.

And I got the email and I was
like I don't need it, like I

don't need it.

And you know, then I saw like
okay, it came with an 1155 NFT,

while it's not, you know,
directly tied to it, still kind

of cool, but I was still like,
you know, probably not going to

do it.

Just, yeah, I'm not sure Love
the LACMA.

But then I saw it in person and
I was like, wow, like okay.

And it wasn't just that, but
there was a talk that you gave

around your Fidenza, that you
have hanging up in your house

and that it's a conversation
piece.

And that was really when I saw
that and I have an exact place

where I'm going to hang it.

It's literally going to be like
right there and that's going to

be immediately seen when people
walk into it, because I think

it's a fascinating thing when
people look at it.

You just can't help but look at
it and wonder about it.

What have been?

You know.

So you inspired that ringer
because you were like the

Fidenza's a conversation piece.

What has been?

Is there a certain conversation
that comes to mind?

You know that you've had around
that Fidenza piece when people

have walked into your house.

Speaker 2: I just think it's
another way to.

I don't know.

I always try to think of, like,
how can I talk to my family,

how can I convince others and
show people like what I do and

what's going on, and like try to
copy over or transfer some of

the enthusiasm?

And it is so cool to have this?

I mean, you said a conversation
piece that you know when you

come in, it's right in the main
spot there and everyone sees it

and I think most people just
think it's oh, it's cool, Maybe

somebody painted it or somebody
used Photoshop, but I would say

nine times out of 10, that's
where it ends.

But there's, you know, 10% of
people that ask about it or show

interest or stop to stare at it
for a little while.

And that's like the icebreaker
for me, where I can just dive in

and start chatting.

It's always hard to know okay,
do I start talking to this

person?

How's that going to come off?

But anytime you have like
anyone shows any interest, right

then you jump on them.

That's what tends to be the
case.

So, yeah, even with my parents
and I've been talking to them

for years and years and years
around what I do and what I work

on and why I'm excited about
this stuff and how it's unique.

And you know my dad shows
interest and he, you know he

built his own kind of portfolio.

He's started to get his feet
wet, but it was really cool to

be able to say, see this, this
is actually a print.

This isn't the art.

The real art is, you know, it's
stored on chain and it wasn't

created like an artist didn't
set out to create this unique

thing.

They actually wrote the
algorithm and then the script

told the computer what to do and
it like randomly created this

outlet and so like to be able to
.

Now you're kind of red pilling,
so to speak, someone into

generative art and that gets
them into, like, why the

blockchain is helpful in that
you know in that process and how

it's stored.

And it's been really cool even
just for, you know, having my

kids be around it, my wife
encounter it and you know that's

just one example, Like a
million other pieces, some that

are just in this room.

That I think is starting to
like chip away, where I don't

have to be so intense about
trying to show off my passion,

that I can just kind of I can
put it out there and other

people can ask about it, but I
think it really is a great way

to like get people excited about
what's going on here.

Speaker 1: Totally dude.

Yeah, that definitely.

Yeah, I can't remember where
you said that, but it definitely

.

That was like what triggered
the purchase of that.

I was like that feels really
fun, you know.

Speaker 2: I'm excited for you
because I didn't even get that

thing, so that's going to be
awesome man.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, I'm
excited because it was really

funny, because it was the
through I read.

The only reason I knew about it
early was through the avant.

I registered for the avant art
rip cash drawing and I, you know

, unfortunately missed that and
they were like, hey, like we saw

, you missed out on this, but
you know, we're going to gauge

interest for this.

This is what's coming, you know
, yada, yada, yada.

We're going to just be
registering interest and we'll

be available for purchase until
this time.

But if you want to buy it
directly, you don't, you could

skip a couple steps and you get
to skip the line away.

I was like, all right, that's a
great, it was a great, it was a

great sales methodology there.

But I was, yeah, I'm so, I'm so
excited for it.

It's one of the things I'm most
excited to get delivered in the

mail, like out of everything
this year.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great
man.

I mean the ringer itself and
that whole collection and

algorithm.

It's probably onboarded more
people to generative art than

any other collection, maybe
minus squiggles or something

because it was really impactful
for me when I first saw it come

around and, of course, I didn't
acquire any, but it was a really

good example of like what's
possible is like, okay, here are

some pegs and then you
interrupt strings around the

pegs and you can actually get
that pretty easily.

But then it's like okay, look
at all the different outputs

that we can create from just
that common idea.

So it's so cool, it's like the
perfect conversation piece, as

you call it.

So that's exciting man.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, so it'll
be fun man.

But yeah, dude, so I guess want
to be conscious of your time

here, man.

I want to give you at least a
little bit of a break before

your next call.

This has been a lot of fun, man
.

I just want to really
appreciate you for your in-depth

answers and the time that
you've given.

It's been a treat to get to
know you a little bit better.

Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, always
cool to hang out.

I'm glad we got to do this deep
dive.

I would love to learn more
about you at some point as well.

I feel like I've taken center
stage here, but really

appreciate working with you and
your team.

Your team is amazing the team
at Schiller.

It's just been a blast working
with that group over these last

few months.

I mean, this is why we're in
this space.

There's a lot of code, there's
a lot of hype, there's a lot of

digital assets, there's a lot of
fluff, but at the end of the

day, it's like the people you
get to work with that keeps us

around.

It's just been great working
with you guys.

Yeah, thanks for the
opportunity to dive down a deep

hole there and tell a piece of
my story.

Man.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, I feel
like we barely scratched the

surface.

Man, I feel like an IRL three
and a half hour podcast is

warranted, because I think
there's just so much to tell man

.

Thanks for giving me a glimpse
and giving me a little bit more

of a window inside of yourself.

What makes you get up every day
?

Just the love for Genitive Art,
man.

It's been a lot of fun.

You give me a lot of new ideas
from a builder's perspective,

from an artist's perspective,
just a new perspective in

general.

Is there anything that you'd
want to shout out at the end or

anywhere where you want to point
people after this is over,

whether it's Twitter website, et
cetera, would love to give you

an opportunity to do that.

Speaker 2: Sure, yeah.

First thing I want to say is
that I'm the face of this thing

and a lot of the other projects
that I've built in my past don't

always have the time to thank
the team.

I just want to thank the
prohibition team Thomas and

Dorian and Jonathan and Tim and
Taylor and as long and Tom and

everyone that's involved, just
because without them there

wouldn't be prohibition.

It's been great to be able to
take credit from time to time as

the voice of this thing, but
this wouldn't even be a thing

without the incredible team
behind me.

Thanks for letting me sidebar a
little bit there.

I'm just really excited about
speaking of scratching the

surface.

We've barely gotten into all
the ideas that we have for

prohibition and how we want to
grow the community.

If you have any interest in
generative art, I would tell

people to check out prohibition.

We build in public and we want
to keep getting feedback and we

want to keep delivering value
for our collectors and creators.

If you're an artist and you
want a particular tool like,

jump into the Discord and let us
know.

We try to be very open and
transparent and listen to our

users.

If you're a generative artist
and you want some place new and

exciting and flexible and
experimental.

Come to prohibitionart.

Yeah, we're excited for what's
to come in 2024.

Speaker 1: Hell, yeah, man.

Well, jordan, thanks for adding
that in.

As I said, from a collector's
perspective, it's wonderful just

to see a lot of new ways in
which the artists are

experimenting on that platform.

Even the last plug of getting
to buy art with Apple Pay, that

was pretty dope.

That was a really fun
experience to be able to do that

.

This is as a testament, not
only while we do work together.

It's so much fun to use these,
regardless of whether we were

working together or not.

It's like we would be using
this platform and it's a lot of

fun.

Yeah, man, we'll go ahead and
wrap it up here.

Until next time, man, hang out
for a little bit just to let it

finish uploading.

Again, jordan, thank you so
much again for your time.

This has been a treat, man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks again.

Thanks so much for having me.

This was awesome.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Shiller Curated

Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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.

Once again, thank you for
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Until next time, this is Boone
signing off.