Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Schiller

Curated Podcast.

In this week's episode, we sit
down with Sterling Crispin.

Sterling is a conceptual artist
, software developer and AI

researcher.

In this episode, we chat
everything from NFTs disrupting

the art fordrew market to the
effects of AI and social media

on humanity, his work on the
Apple VR headset, the role of

art in society and much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now grab some coffee and dive
into this conversation with

Sterling.

Awesome, I think we're good.

Oh, yeah, it shows recording it
.

Okay, I'm still used to the
other platform.

Gm Sterling, how are you, man?

I'm good.

How are you?

You know I'm doing well.

I'm still recovering from MARFA
.

I'm not sure if you got a
little bit of that just fatigue

from traveling so much.

I mean I was, yeah, so this is
one of the first days I feel a

little bit more normal since I
got back.

So I'm doing all right though,
man.

How about you?

Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely
feeling the MARFA fatigue.

I mean it's awesome meeting so
many people, but you know, it's

like, oh, did I grab my
toothpaste?

Did I grab my hat?

Everything.

And then a day and a half into
it I'm like, oh, I haven't put

sunscreen on and I've been in
the sun for like 36 hours

straight.

Maybe that's why I'm so
exhausted.

And I was going to go to the
people meetup the next weekend

for the crypto punks and I just
canceled the trip.

I booked a hotel like up, like
out of the city, and my wife and

I drove out and like chilled
out.

And yeah, I definitely, you
know, regret missing the people

thing, but like back to back,
like two crypto weekends in a

row, it was a little, it's too
much.

Speaker 1: It really is so
fungible.

You know, he flew in from
Canada to El Paso, we hung out

in MARFA and then he drove with
me back to Austin.

He went to New York for a week
and then went to the people

Charleston event and now he's
back at it.

I'm just like man, you know,
just, I guess, built different

because I just complete like,
for the past couple of days I

was, you know, bed, I was in bed
as much as I could, just

watching Harry Potter.

Cause I think part of it's also
a post-Marfa depression, because

I think I got just to meet so
many cool people there,

including yourself, and we
finally, we finally really got

to connect in front of the Art
Block's house and I I think that

just the social battery gets so
tapped out because we don't

really know what's going to
happen at these things, you know

, and then when they happen,
your body's just playing catch

up, you know like yeah, totally,
and it's awesome to hang out

with people that, like you've
known online for a while and

just like connect, or like
people that maybe, like you've

been following each other for a
while, but they keep like a

really mysterious air to them.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and you meet
them.

Oh, this is who you are.

Like I really I had no idea.

There's definitely people out
there that are like very like

elusive online but then like
super friendly in person, so

that's always interesting.

Speaker 1: It is, and I think
that part you know, that's

something I've had to get used
to, uh, in, you know, in this

industry I, you know, especially
since joining back in 2021 is

just, uh, it's.

There's something special about
it, though, in my opinion,

because I think that at least my
experience, though, is that

having this kind of pseudo, the
pseudonym online, or having this

different identity, it allows
for a different, I guess, it

allows for different experiences
to take place, and it allows

for a different version it's
still authentic, but just a

different version of the
authentic self to really

manifest, you know.

And then, when you meet people
in person, you're like, oh,

you're just like a person who
puts on their pants the same way

as I do, right, like, um, it's
wonderful, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2: I, I, I wonder a lot.

Like you know, when I built my
website and was like getting

online as an artist, it was like
2004 or something and um, it's

been.

It's kind of like too late for
me.

I feel like the ship is sailed
on the like pseudo anonymous

thing.

Like it's, it's too late.

You know, like I could, I could
roll an alt on Twitter and, um,

you know, like re-boat and do
something else.

But it's funny because, like I,
I use my real name everywhere

and I have for so long, but at
the same time, like it's still

kind of this weird avatar.

You know, like my Instagram
page or my Twitter account like

isn't exactly who I am.

It's kind of this like shrine
to this avatar that like is a

projection, it's some like
projection of who I am.

That's like communicating, like
certain things.

You know, um, yeah, it's, it's
just interesting.

It's always interesting too.

Like I don't know meeting
people.

Like sometimes you meet people
and they have these like really

concrete stories of who they
think you are, instead of just

being like president of the
moment.

Oh, hey, like this is who you
are, how's it going Like, how's

your day going?

You know, they're like they
have this, this hardcore

narrative and like wow, like I
don't know who you're like, I'd

like to meet the person you
think you're meeting, because I

don't know who that is.

Speaker 1: That's not me, you
know just totally dude I and

there's.

There's this fun part of like
yeah, I think you're touching on

something really fun there,
because it's it's fun to kind of

decipher that.

But it's also fun when people
show up in character, you know,

or they show up, you know like
it is.

It is kind of interesting.

There was a podcasted a long
time ago with one of the project

founders called Jenkins of LA,
and when I interviewed him it

was he was.

He assumed the role of Jenkins
during that entire interview and

that was kind of fun, you know,
and so like when people are

able to do that, that you look
at someone like doctor

disrespect as well in the gaming
world, you know it's like he is

himself Just about everywhere
you know he goes, and it's very

interesting to to have this kind
of internet personality bridge

to like IRL people that just
take their craft really

seriously.

I just find that to be so
fascinating and it's something

that I think, as I've spent time
around more artists and just

more creative people in general,
it's been, it's become more

intriguing versus, I guess quote
unquote weird, you know, it

still is weird, but like we're
all fucking weird, you know,

like so totally totally man for
sure, yeah, yeah.

Well, so one thing you touched
on there, one thing you

mentioned, is that you created
your website in 2004.

And so was that like kind of
the early, definitely curious

kind of about the story of you
kind of becoming like who you

are man, or like I guess the
version that you are today was

that kind of your.

Had you been creating before
that?

Was that your first go at it?

What was kind of the creation
like of that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean to go
way back.

I've been around art since I
was a young kid.

My dad was a tattoo artist and
a painter, my grandpa was like a

pretty prolific photographer
and so like when I was, you know

, in preschools, like, oh, I'm
going to become an artist and

draw the Garfield cartoon.

So like that was my ambition.

Like I knew I wanted to be an
artist really early on, although

I didn't really know like where
that, where that was going.

And yeah, I got really into
gaming in high school and junior

high school and was like
learning how to code and making,

like you know, custom maps and
characters for like Quake 2 and

Quake 3 and Counter Strike and
stuff like that and thought that

I was going to go to school for
game development and then read

these horror stories of people
like sleeping under their desk

and eating like peanut butter
and jelly sandwiches for dinner

at three in the morning, like
crying on their keyboard, trying

to like get through crunch time
to ship some game and I was

like that sounds like fucking
hell, Like I'm not, I'm not

doing so.

Yeah, I went to painting and
drawing school but you know it

was making digital art and the
program that I went to is a tiny

little art school in Colorado
called the Rocky Mountain

College of Art and Design.

It's like very experimental,
strange art school.

You can kind of do anything you
wanted.

So the freedom I really like
thrived in the freedom and was,

like you know, turning in
performances for my painting

class and paintings for my
sculpture class and just like,

just kind of doing anything.

But yeah, that was kind of the
beginnings of it, but at the

time, you know, nobody was
really selling digital art, Like

that really wasn't a thing.

Like every once in a while
there'd be this news story like

oh, something weird, the show
sold like a gift on a USB stick

for $200.

The digital art scene is taking
off, you know, like okay, great

, so, yeah.

So I spent a long time just
like fighting tooth and nail in

the like white wall contemporary
art world, trying to break into

that space and like figuring
out ways to like write software

but then have a become like a
discrete fine art object.

I like to joke, you know it's
like, okay, I've been doing all

the some, all the some more
stuff and now it has to like fit

in this little box for the art
world.

And and yeah, crypto has been
like an amazing, amazing, like

release of all of those
constraints.

And it came at a really weird
time for me because I just had

my first big solo show in New
York and fabricated tons of work

for it and it even got like
reviewed in the New York Times

and I was like, okay, this is
like all engines go like I

finally you know I may finally.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is
it.

Speaker 2: You know, I finally
hit cruise control and the

thinking was that, like all that
work that I produced was going

to go to art fairs, but my show
opened like four months before

the COVID lockdown, so it's like
all the art fairs are canceled.

A gallery went out of business
Wow, you know, I saw all of

pieces out of the show and like
broke even basically on all the

time and fabrication costs going
into making the exhibit.

But right around that time also
, crypto started heating up and

I was like, okay, like I've been
like just you know, fruitlessly

tilling this soil in the
contemporary art world and it's

time to move on.

Speaker 1: You know that's
because I remember seeing that

first collection of yours and so
when that happened, didn't you

take those physical objects and
put them as NFTs and sell those

to people?

And then they got, they were
able to claim that piece of

artwork.

Is that kind of?

Speaker 2: yeah, I did do that.

It was like a year on the date
for that art show, like a year

later, and I sold a couple of
pieces that way and I definitely

think that there's like an
interesting opportunity to, you

know, tokenize physical artworks
and use that provenance.

And you know, like the
contemporary art world is so

weird, like it really runs on
like obfuscation and the you

know hiding of information and
who knows what and like do you

know how much this painting
actually sold for the last time

it sold?

Like you're interested in
buying this painting and I know

the guy who has it and I'm gonna
tell it it's gonna be 30 grand

and then I'm gonna sell it to
you for 120,.

You know there's like so much
shady stuff that happens.

So actually just having like a
24 seven open market where

anybody who wants to buy
something can buy it, like

that's awesome.

And I think like there's a lot
of you know utopian dreams of

the contemporary art world
adopting NFTs for all their

physical pieces but, like I said
, like their whole industry is

built on the control of
information, so that's not gonna

happen.

And then also there's just like
tons of physical considerations

like how do you, let's say, you
have a million dollar painting

or something that would be
easily forged Like, let's say

it's a famous Warhol piece,
where it's like okay, it's a

silk.

Like anybody can fake that, how
do you, you know, in a very

secure way tie that NFT to the
physical piece in a way that

like can't be forged right and
like at some point, when the

financial incentive is high
enough, it doesn't like people

will go through the effort to
forge the thing right, like the

government spends so much energy
trying to make $100 bills hard

to forge, but the financial
incentive to forge $100 bills is

really high and so people have.

It's this constant war where
people are figuring it out and

like.

I wrote a blog post about this
a couple of years ago.

But there's like one of the most
interesting things is that you

can get like DNA, like
arbitrarily sequenced and have

like the sequence of the DNA
proteins like represent

information, right, and then you
like spray something with this

DNA spray and then, if you want
to like verify that's the real

thing, you can like swab it and
then like sequence the DNA on

the thing and like see if it's
like the correct serial number,

but like even that you know if
you're trying to.

If you're trying to forge a $4
million dollar painting or

whatever and you have to spend
like 300 grand making this like

fake DNA spray, you're still.

You're still going to make
money on it.

So totally it's not I don't
know, it's not a trustless

system as they say.

There's still like quite a bit
of like human, human in the loop

trust that needs to be there.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there
there's something you wanted

that you mentioned there.

I wanted to.

This is such a fun conversation
Like this is an interesting

conversation because I listened
to the we do a little podcast

where D's had Magnus I can't
remember his last name starts

with an R, but he was
essentially talking about.

You know, there's a, there's a.

There's a very big incentive
for the contemporary or the fine

art world to not adopt.

You know what we're doing here.

You know, and part of it is
fear.

Part of it is that they're kind
of on that coast mode that you

had mentioned earlier and I just
go on autopilot.

But I think where I, where my
mind goes, is that you know, I

look at some of the new tech
being being created.

I look at there's a few key
players.

I look at like what fellowship
trust has done with their print

shop where they give you know
you can redeem like one token

for one print and that proven.

You know once that's sold, you
know you can't print another one

.

The token won't allow it and if
someone tries to do it, then

you can see that it's already
been redeemed.

That's really interesting to me
.

Another one is like what
transient just did with ACK's,

you know, the Muse, where they
had that app that supposedly you

can't tamper, tamper with it on
the back of the work and that

essentially just makes the the
provenance of the blockchain, I

guess, prettier.

You know cause I for a while I
was like, okay, what does that

really do?

But I, I remember like okay,
it's, the common person's not

going to go to ether scan unless
they really want to, you know.

So someone needs to make it a
little easier to translate some

of that information to, to save,
you know, to the fine art world

.

And I look at a few other
individual artists that are

really that have had some, some
had success in the contemporary

world, like Alamo and like F dot
, and they're they're kind of

doing that as well, trying to
find these creative ways to show

, like collectors, that you know
this isn't some just monkey

JPEG thing.

This is, this is a way to prove,
you know, it's a way to prove

authenticity.

You know it's a way to have the
provenance where no one can

tamper with it.

And I think that I guess, as
I'm rambling here, the more that

you know I say that or the more
I you know, I guess talk about

it is that it kind of makes
sense from the bottom up

approach, because if collectors
are bought in, then the fine art

world, I guess, will have no
choice but to buy in.

You know, kind of seems like
that's the approach there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

I mean, show me the incentives
and I'll show you the outcomes.

Right, if, like, collectors are
clamoring for it, then, like

you know, the gallerist and the
dealerist or whatever will you

know, line up.

And yeah, it's interesting to
me like there's this company

called ArtLogic, I think, and
they're sort of like the back

end of every art gallery for
inventory management, right,

like it helps you keep track of
sales, it helps you keep track

of clients, it helps you keep
track of what paintings you have

, where you know how they are,
like in crates, all this stuff,

and like, if any company were to
offer something like that, like

ArtLogic would be extremely
well positioned to just roll out

a new feature and say, like,
okay, you're already doing

inventory management with us.

Now, if you have an artist
that's a digital artist, instead

of saying, oh, it's an mp4 file
, whatever, you just check this

box and upload the mp4 file, we
put it on the blockchain for you

and then you can perform a sale
, get some credit card, then you

can just like assign that it
belongs to somebody else and

will generate a custodia wallet
for them and if they actually

want to take custody, there's a
little button for that.

You know, like that it would be
, that would be the like yeah,

the route you know, versus like.

I've seen a few different like
companies trying to like

penetrate that market and like
good luck, I don't know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it feels
challenging, but I yeah to your

point.

That sounds like the path of
least resistance, but it still

seems like we're a little far
off.

I will say though I am like,
over the past couple years, I am

kind of impressed with how
Sotheby's and Christie's have

tried to make a conceited effort
, you know, into the space.

Like they start, like I know
Sotheby started off really rough

and then they've made quite a
few cool, like you can tell that

they're at least trying, you
know, and they're trying to like

make sense of this world and it
.

I don't know.

I feel like now that a lot of
the, a lot of the noise is gone

I'm not sure if you share the
same sentiment, but I feel like

I feel like the tourists have
officially left, you know.

I feel like I feel like it's
only the psychotic locals that

are still here, you know totally
.

Speaker 2: It's like the
hardcore you know artists and

collectors, and then just like
the absolute, like malady,

degenerates that are.

You know what they're up to
right now, but yeah, totally.

Speaker 1: Totally, man, it's,
it's, it's a lot of great fun, I

mean because it sounds like you
were probably way earlier to

this to this than me.

It's not like.

Were you in like, did you get
like involved when Bitcoin was

around or were you kind of like
a ICO kind of guy?

When did you kind of get
involved in this?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think
everyone kind of has their like

fumble story.

I heard about Bitcoin through
slash dot in like 2011.

And at the time I had an art
studio and, like the company

that I worked at just switched
from PC to Mac and they're like,

can you recycle all these PCs
for us?

And like, sure, let me just
like wipe all the hard drives

and I'll take all these PCs.

So I had like 11 keys in my
studio and I was like, oh,

bitcoin, I'm getting free
electricity at my art studio.

I could just hook all these up
and start mining crazy Bitcoin.

And I like I created like three
wallets out of the 11 computers

and I started doing it.

I was like I'm gonna go
skateboarding, this is bullshit.

And I just stopped.

Then, in like 2015, I made a
sculpture with a Bitcoin mining

ASIC and I was mining some
Bitcoin in 2015 and lost that

Bitcoin.

But the sculpture is actually
pretty funny.

Like I was working in LA at the
time at this tech startup and

was like kind of really paranoid
about the end of the world,

like post 2012,.

You know, there's all this
apocalypse talk and then living

in LA is like a very apocalyptic
place and like hearing all this

stuff about.

You know all these wildfires
and then, like California is

like farming with 10,000 year
old groundwater and nobody knows

how much of its left, and
drones are supposedly going to

start delivering our groceries.

And I was working at this AR
tech startup making this like

you know, ar glasses for a hard
hat for, like industrial

purposes.

Meanwhile, like you know, the
globe is warming and the oceans

are dying and all the coral
reefs have disappeared.

I'm like this is fucking insane
.

Like how are we going to like
reach the Kurzweilian you know

singularity and merge with
machines and become gods and, at

the same time, like every
living thing on earth is going

to die because, like, these own
species are going to collapse,

right?

So I made the sculpture called
self contained investment module

and contingency package and the
idea was like buy this and had

a Bitcoin mining ASIC in it.

So it was mining Bitcoin as a
sculpture, so you could make

your money back just owning the
sculpture because it's mining

Bitcoin, or maybe you're
speculating on it as this

discrete fine art object and,
like in the future, you know,

it's worth an art object even if
Bitcoin goes down or maybe,

like the global art market
collapses and the whole

financial, like all of our
institutions collapse and

Bitcoin collapses and the only
thing and the only thing left is

like the dehydrated seeds and
like the hand crank radio and

like the water filter and so,
like you're kind of like hedging

all your bets with this thing,
and it was in a show in Paris

and a collector in LA bought it
and then just never paid for

shipping back to LA.

So it's sat and it's sat in
storage, not mining Bitcoin for

like four fucking years or
something.

No, no, no it.

It sat in storage for two years
and then, during the 2017 boom,

he called me up and was like,
hey, like didn't I buy some

Bitcoin thing from you?

Man, like you fucking blew it.

Like you just left it in
storage.

Like it's not Bitcoin's gone,
man.

So, yeah, it's a funny, a funny
loop, and I I forgot how much

Bitcoin I had at the time, but I
lost it all and I try not to do

.

I've calculated how it was.

It wasn't like life changing
money, but it was like you know,

cute convertible money or
something like that.

It was enough.

Speaker 1: It was enough to
probably make you feel pain,

like it was probably enough to
like setting, yeah, upset for

sure Totally.

I mean, for me I just never.

That's super interesting, man,
and that's I think, that's.

I think I remember hearing
about that.

That sculpture that you built
and I can't remember where I saw

it, whether it was some like
random you know thing you

tweeted or some, when I was
scoping your website out was

like that there's a lot of like
in a scope through, like your

foundation you're super rare and
like in some of your works on

your website and it's like.

There's usually this
contradiction of thought, you

know, like in a lot of your work
where it's like there's a lot

of different things playing at
each other, where it's like okay

, like, say, with this sculpture
is like are you buying it for

the Bitcoin?

Are you buying it as a fine art
object?

Like.

I really think that's
specifically fun about your work

, at least that I picked up on
is that there's a lot.

It forces at least me to think
about what am I actually buying?

In a lot of different ways,
like your NFT of, like this NFT

is going to buy me a Porsche.

I absolutely love, love that
commentary.

So I, how, like when you come
up with these is that kind of

like?

I guess I'm not even sure what
the right question is, but is

that, I guess when was kind of
the first?

I guess the early days of like
thinking about concepts like

that?

I guess what your view on art
was then versus what it is now.

Take that however you want.

I know I kind of rambled there.

Speaker 2: No, it's all good, I
hear what you're saying.

Like like I consider myself a
conceptual artist, like I really

have these ideas that I'm drawn
toward, and then the ideas lead

me to the medium.

Like you know, studio art
school and thinking about, like

form and content relationships,
right, Like if you have a

message you're trying to say
with your artwork, actually,

like putting it on paper or
painting it or taking a

photograph changes the meaning
of that message just through the

medium, right?

So I'm always like moving
between different mediums

because I'm like trying to say
different things and I've worked

that way for a really long time
and it's interesting.

Like you know, in art school
they're really hammered into you

like hey, you have to have a
consistent portfolio, you have

to have a consistent portfolio,
and I'm like I don't I don't

know what you mean like my
consistency is that I'm making

the work and like you're a
long-for-writer, you're not.

And like it's scary sometimes
because, like a lot of times

when I'm making art, I'm like
working with a new medium and

doing something I've never done
before, just like taking a leap

into the unknown and it might
seem like a crazy thing to do,

but then, like looking back over
time, like three years later

it's like, oh actually, like I
can kind of see this like

constellation I was drawing with
all these little dots, and like

it might not make sense in the
time, but like yeah, in the rear

view mirror you can kind of see
like the landscape of ideas

that I'm interested in.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that
that makes a lot of sense, and

I've learned that just in my own
journey as well.

It's a lot of times that in the
moment, decisions don't really

make a whole lot of sense, and
I'm happy that you shared that,

because I feel like there's kind
of this shared narrative.

I think you know, at least not
from the collectors that, like I

guess, I follow or I admire, I
look up to, but there's some

collectors that you look at and
they're like, yeah, you need to

have like this consistent style
and this consistent.

It's like it's very
contradictory to like what we're

participating in here.

You know, you can kind of tell
what people come in here and are

fair weathered and people who
actually understand at least, or

at least trying to understand,
the ethos of what we're, I guess

, creating on top of or what
we're, yeah, transacting on top

of I guess is a better word
below the creation, and so I

find it fascinating that even in
this day and age, people are

still trying to adopt that,
because I feel like it seems

easy, and so I think I can
really respect that about you.

Where it's, I feel like that is
has to be incredibly terrifying

.

I mean, just like trying
anything new, but to be doing it

on a consistent basis.

I'm like fuck man, this man
literally lives, this man

literally in the arena, every
single time, right.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean
I'm kind of like weirdly jealous

of people that can tolerate
doing consistent work and I

understand like it does make a
lot of sense.

You know, it's like oh, I see
this image.

I instantly know who did it.

I see this image either this
artist did it or somebody's

ripping them off like that's
their style.

You know, that totally makes
sense.

But it's like I just am
interested in way too many

things to do that personally.

I've just not wired that way
and yeah, shoot, I was gonna say

something else there.

Speaker 1: I can feel it.

Okay, go ahead.

Go for it, man.

Speaker 2: No, I don't know.

You know I was thinking about
like like finite and infinite

games.

Have you ever heard of that
book?

Yes, I have.

Yep, People either love it or
they hate it and they're mad

that somebody's like merging all
these different like religious

ideas from different texts and
they're not citing anything and

all this stuff.

But like it's I think it's a
really has a lot of like really

simple, interesting takeaways
and like the general idea is

that there's like finite games
where there's like clear winners

and losers and there's like
fixed rules and fixed beginning

and ending times and totally
more rigid.

And there's infinite games where
the point is to like continue

play and not to win and to just
like change the rules as needed

and like the size of the arena
can change, like it's way more

fluid and like I don't want to
say that like having a

consistent, like art portfolio
is a finite game, but like it

can be in a way you know, like
if you're super successful and

you're like, okay, this is my
career, I'm have to play by

these rules.

There's this like big system
set up between you know the way

people show work and the way
people buy work and what it

means to be like an entity
online and how this like message

that I'm communicating like it
just feels like a very finite

game to me.

And it's okay to play finite
games, but like my tolerance for

them is like extremely low
actually.

Just personally, I just I can't
stand it.

Speaker 1: That was going to be
one of my questions.

I'm sure you tried to develop a
style at a certain point in

your career, If I'm, if I'm
probably accurate there, and you

probably tried it and you're
probably like fuck.

That, you know, like probably
didn't make a whole lot of sense

.

It's kind of the same way I
structure these podcasts, like

I've tried to play the, the
finite, typical way that people

do podcasts, and it just has
never worked, and so I guess I

can relate to you in that point
where it's kind of scary.

But I guess, to get a little
heady on that, finite games and

infinite games I think I think
it's I, now that you're bringing

that up I think there's certain
games, there's certain games

that are fun to be finite, where
you're just like you know what.

I don't really want to dive off
the deep.

Not everything has to be like
infinite possibilities, Like I'm

really okay with not a lot of
things being like that, like

where I go get groceries, you
know, like where I go, you know

like where I go see movies,
where I go hang out with my

friends, right, I mean, I guess
the last one you could argue

could evolve and change, but you
know things that are, like I

guess, basic necessities to
human life are things that I'm

like.

You know what I'm kind of okay
with with, with the finite here,

I like the comfort of knowing
where I'm going to get my food

every day, right, yeah, there's.

Speaker 2: There's a time and
place for everything.

And it's not that it's bad to
play finite games, but like it

gets dangerous when, like you
don't realize you're playing a

finite game.

Probably you thought you were
playing an infinite game with

somebody and then suddenly
they're like stepping on your

toes and they're like I'm the
winner, I'm the winner.

And you're like Whoa, dude,
like we're just throwing a

Frisbee around, like why are you
freaking out all of a sudden,

like what just happened there?

Speaker 1: Is there an example
like on that?

Is there an example like where
you've where that's happened to

you, like where you've kind of
like thought you were playing a

finite game, or there was when
it really wasn't?

Speaker 2: I mean, I think maybe
the other way around.

Like I don't know.

It's funny the way people are
online.

Like obviously, like everyone
wants to be told that they're

good, people want to be accepted
, people want praise.

Like you put something online
and you watch the numbers go up

and you watch everyone tell you
that you're genius and you're

like yeah, I'm good, that's just
the thing, right, yeah, but

like I don't know that I'm
really online for that.

Like I'm really online to just
like communicate with other

people and see what's going on
in the world and like I try not

to be a dick to other people.

But also like I like to talk
about art and like if you show

some artwork, I might be like
hey, like you know, is this what

this means?

Have you seen this other thing?

That's like that.

Like I want to like talk shop
with people and a lot of times I

feel like people are like Whoa,
like the only things you're

allowed to say are that, like
I'm a genius and that love this.

Like you're not allowed to like
say anything else and like

right, I feel that's some kind
of weird like finite game

defensiveness thing where I'm
like I actually like I want to

like exchange ideas and like
grow and like, like find peers

and like riff off of each other
and like I'm not online, to like

compete with other artists.

You know what I'm saying, right
?

Speaker 1: And I think that's a.

It's something I really learned
in the beginning was that the

different like, like the
internet makes the world a lot

bigger.

You know, like I think I think
whatever concept I have of how

big the opportunity is here, I
still think I'm probably off by

a long shot.

I'm probably severely like
underestimating it.

I think that's true for for
anything and I can.

I had a thought there and I may
have lost it, but I can tell it

like I guess I can, I guess I
can see.

Well, no, I'm not even going to
try to make that up because I

completely lost my train of
thought there.

This is a fun conversation when
it comes to the games that we

play here, but oh, with, yeah, I
mean with with Twitter,

something that, yeah, this is
actually what it was.

I found it.

I feel like there was a piece of
advice that was given on the

internet from a character that
some love, some hate.

You know that I think most
people in crypto have a pretty

strong disdain, but a lot of
people who are pre-crypto or who

are like came in, you know, a
little later, kind of like

around me, like 2021 ish is you
know, gary Vee, and like, like

say what you want about the guy,
but like he understands human

emotion, human psychology really
well and there was something

that he would always harp on is
like don't.

It's like essentially being
tied to the praise, you know,

without being.

You know, without being able to
accept the, the consequence or

the to being able to accept the
opposite of praise, like if

you're only married to this and
you're only accepting these

great comments of how fucking
awesome you are and how much of

a genius you are, like you're
going to be completely destroyed

when you get the first comment
that doesn't think that you know

.

Kind of like, and I don't know,
man, it feels weird.

The incentive structures in
place, like I feel like X is

like the best we got, you know
which.

I mean, it's what it's, it's
how we came in contact, you know

.

So you can't argue that it's
not a bad thing, but it feels

like the incentives are very
aligned or not very aligned here

.

You know they're, they're
incentivized to kind of have

this finite game.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, I feel
like.

I feel like the tough thing
with with online criticism is

that, like people are very
willing to say things they would

never say to someone's face,
you know totally.

Oh, I, I know how I can get this
guy and they say something

that's like pretty scathing.

And you're like whoa man, like
I don't know that whatever I

just said or whatever that
person just said, like warranted

that level of intensity of a
response.

Right, I think that's like
that's one of the problems.

And, like I don't know, there's
a whole, there's a whole other

conversation around.

Just like a B testing your
creativity in your life way,

right, just like the whole
dopamine cycle of like being a

part of this massive network
system where, like I put up one

artwork and I put up another
artwork and like this post gets

40 times the engagement.

And then it's like, well, do I
just ignore the fact that that's

what everyone wants or do I do
more of what everyone wants?

And if you start doing more of
what everyone wants, you

basically like A-B testing your
creative process, right, and

then suddenly, like you're not
really in control of the system

anymore.

It's like you're a piece of
driftwood on this giant wave.

That's like pushing you in a
direction, right and really

evident, with, like, let's say,
mrbeast right, totally,

obviously creative decisions
being made there, but it's

hyper-optimized to what people
want to see.

So, like if you think about
YouTube as a system.

What does YouTube want?

Like YouTube wants, mrbeast,
like the ad machine and the

viewership machine and the age
of viewers and like the medium

through which they're ingesting.

It has, like produced this
emergent thing of these like

insane giveaway videos and
exploding cars, the pace of it

and the thumbnails, like it's a
giant jungle and this, like

weird apex predator, has like
emerged out of that jungle.

You know, yeah, yeah and yeah.

Just seeing that is really
strange and like as an artist,

it's like, damn man, it's like I
got to make an artwork that

works well at a 16 by 9 ratio in
Twitter and has to work well as

a square for Instagram and it
has to work well thumbnail when

it shows up on Discord and
OpenSea and it has to look great

, full screen at 4K resolution
and 90 frames a second and it's

just like grab your attention.

You have to be like, you have
to be able to be scrolling

through the feed and see
something go by and just like

immediately understand it right,
which I think is part of why,

like Beeple's work does so well.

It's like, oh yeah, it's a giant
robot dick coming out of Kim

Jong-un's head.

Like I know what that means you
know it's like this insane

image and then, if you like, if
you blew a Beeple piece up like

the size of a painting and try
to stare at it like it was a

Dutch golden age painting, it
just would totally fall apart

because, like, the crowd in the
foreground is just like the same

two dudes copy and paste it
over and over again and there's

something to be said about like
the aesthetics of that.

But like back to the whole form
and content thing, it's like

the way people are ingesting the
content changes, what the

content is and what it means,
and like, yeah, we're all just

kind of getting like sucked
through this narrow straw of you

know, social media and like
whatever comes out, the other

side is what comes out.

Speaker 1: That's a great way to
put it.

I don't think I've had that
visual, that visual, yet, but I

think I think I'm going to take
that.

That definitely makes a lot of
sense, I think now that you

mentioned because when you
mentioned Mr Beast, that's

probably the better example but
one thing that I recently was

thinking about was MKBHD.

You know, like I love, you know
love his videos, love his

honest takes, but I also
something that was like watch,

like when I watched his review
on the Solana phone that came

out and I and I watched his like
reactions, I'm like there's no

way someone that's that smart
can genuinely just hate

something so much, right, and
but you got to like start

looking at it.

It's like he probably did a
poll on his audience or he

probably looked at some data of
like what are they going to

appreciate or what are they not
going to appreciate, and he

probably has a lot bigger of a
user base that doesn't like it

versus than does, and so
therefore, he succumbed to have

this.

I mean, he could be, really he
could be authentic, like he

could be, and I don't have no
fucking clue, but it just it's

an interesting dilemma because
you know we have what the

algorithm wants versus what we
want, and that I don't even know

what the word is, but I think I
know.

What I'm trying to explain is
that, like you're just getting

this dump of information based
off of the general, like what

the general population wants to
see and what you may want to

present, is probably going to
get swept under the rug.

So I guess you could argue.

I guess the point I'm trying to
make is that I guess the

question is social media
diminishing, you know, our

creative abilities, humans.

Is it just a pure, is it just a
pure dopamine machine milking

us, you know, until we don't
have any more left.

Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I
mean good question Like it's

hard to get into a situation I
mean, even in the contemporary

art world, right, like before
social media and all this like

if you have a style of painting
and you're doing really well and

your paintings are selling for
like 50 grand a piece and you

have this big solo show and it's
all super cohesive, and you're

like burnt out on making those
kinds of paintings and you start

experimenting in your studio
with something else and your

gallery sees them.

That might be like what the
fuck are you doing?

Like you're blowing it.

Like go back to the other style
, make the old paintings that

everybody wants, not these
shitty new paintings that nobody

wants anymore.

And like that's kind of how,
like you know, artist royalty

conversations got kicked off a
lot.

It's because, like, some
artists might be really well

known for a style of painting
they were doing in their 20s and

then they matured, moved on and
they did a bunch of other stuff

that, like, people are way less
interested in and then their

early work gets recognized and
takes off and it's just like

people flipping stuff from the
secondary market and their you

know, their new work is, you
know, less interesting and, like

you know, just thinking about
it from a business perspective

or like investment perspective.

It's like this cost-benefit
analysis right.

Like it's hard not to get to
this situation where what you do

online, you're like, okay, like
I want to tweet this at this

person, but like what's the
upside and what's the downside?

The upside is that I feel good
because this person that said

something shitty.

I told them how shitty it was
and like they did something bad

and I called them out and like
that was the right thing to do

or whatever.

You're thinking your head about
, like why you have to say

something to somebody.

And then the downside is that
like you're gonna piss off a

bunch of your followers and like
they're not following you for

hot takes, they're following you
for art or whatever your

insights are.

And it's like, yeah, it's weird
.

It's weird when being online is
like a source of income and you

start getting into that weird
like cost benefit analysis,

trade-off, and, like I'm, I
should be a lot better at that.

Actually, like I think my new
year's resolution for the last

couple of years has been like
don't be so angry online, cause

they just get fired up, and I'm
willing to, I'm willing to

debate things that, like really
don't benefit me engaging in the

debate at all, either cause I
think it's interesting, or like

somebody just presses my buttons
in the wrong way and I'm like

this person somebody's wrong on
the internet, you know.

Speaker 1: Which most of us are.

I mean, to tell you the truth,
I don't think any, like no one

knows what the fuck we're doing,
but that's really helped me,

dude, you bring up.

Speaking of buttons that you
pushed.

I mean, I think it's really
important.

I think one of the things that,
like, I've really sought out and

I think I'm glad I prioritized
this like finding the tribe of

people that will like check me
on those questions where it's

like okay, like you know what it
like, does this number one does

this need to be said?

Right, like that's the first
question, you know, like will

the world keep spinning without
this being said or does it need

to be said?

And I guess you know.

And the second question is does
it need to be said by me, you

know?

And then the third is like okay
, like what's the, what's the

potential benefit or what's the
potential downside?

You know, and I think having
people like I just have

surrounded myself with people
that like I'm, like hey man,

like I'm really like I'll have
the emotional kind of like the

newer day version of typing out
the email that you want to type

out in a Word document and then
deleting it and then typing it

out again and then typing it out
a third time, where you get to

the essence of like what you're
trying to say, without the

emotional.

Is it vitral or vitral?

However, you pronounce that
Totally.

Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I heard
somebody say like, if you have

something really spicy to say,
to like save it in the drafts

and like look at it tomorrow and
see if you still want to send

it.

But like you can get fired up
to the point that like you're

upset about something stupid.

Somebody said for like a week,
you know, like it really depends

on the context, but like
Totally, I got into a weird

situation where I had to like
negotiate with business

transaction that had like
unintentionally gone wrong

because of miscommunication and
it was this whole thing and

money was involved.

And like I wrote out that email
that I really wanted to send

and I just gave it to chat GBT
and I'm like, look, I know, this

isn't this person.

Like I don't know how else to
say this, like help me out.

And, of course, like chat GBT,
like the way that it

communicates is just like it
writes this, just like flowery,

ridiculous.

Like it's like a high schooler
with like a thesaurus, just like

grabbing these random words
that like nobody would string

those words together like that.

But like it's much more
diplomatic than I am.

And like, honestly, when there
was that whole arms race of

people making like chat GBT apps
, like just give me something

where, like, any text box online
becomes like a proofreader and

there's like a little pop up
that says, like make me sound

less like an asshole.

Like, cause that's pretty much
anytime I'm communicating with

anyone, I want to sound like
less of an asshole, even if I'm

saying something nice.

It's like, hey, you know, like,
help me take the claws off.

Like maybe I don't realize even
that this is going to come off

wrong and I'm just like trying
to talk to somebody, like it's,

communicating via text is tough
and like a lot of context gets

lost.

Speaker 1: I mean a lot, of a
lot of time.

You don't have context, you
don't have tone, you don't have

body language, you don't have
eye contact, you don't have like

.

There's all these things that
really affect, like, how a

message is received.

I had that experience like one
of my very first jobs turned out

to be one of my great coworker
friends in the end.

But when I was kind of a lower
level employee and I was asking

for a request, you know, from
her and her emails just came

across just like like wow, what
a bitch, you know, like I just

just so, like callous, and then
I meet her in person, you know,

and we have all this stuff in
common and she's incredibly

personable, you know, but the
way, the way the community, the

message came across and the
email was like the complete

opposite of who she was.

And so I think you're, I think
you're on something.

It's probably one of the best
use cases, because in that job I

also learned that, because I
was working in escalations for

customer support and you know a
lot.

A whole nother conversation
could be had about that, but you

know, the essence of it is that
I think the main thing I

learned is that 99% of all
frustrations or escalations are

because of a breakdown in
communication, and like that is,

there is very few that I I
think you could one could argue

100% is a breakdown in
communication.

Something wasn't communicated,
something wasn't said the right

way, you know, like expectations
were completely misaligned.

It all boils down to how we,
how we talk to each other.

So, yeah, I think you're on to
something there.

That would be great, that would
be a great tool.

Speaker 2: You know, I just like
realized maybe this is like a

dystopian, bizarre idea, so
don't run if you're listening on

grilling.

But, like I just read this
article about how, when you

search for something on Google
and you're like, uh, children's

clothes or whatever you're
searching for, it'll replace

that search with, like JC
Penney's children's clothes,

spring and it'll like inject
these words that advertisers are

targeting so that Google is
more likely to make money on

your search.

And like everyone's been
complaining about how shitty

Google has gotten in terms of
like finding information you

need.

And it's because they're like
manipulating what you're

searching for to like funnel you
into more.

You know, even if you're not
going to click on an ad, you

might click on a website that
has more ads Google ads on it

than than not.

It's.

And like, speaking of like
customer support, like you're

basically just getting shit on
24 seven and you've got your

little umbrella up like hey,
like come on being like maybe

don't do that to me, and like
that could be a really

interesting use case for AI.

We're like suppose you're
talking to a customer and

there's a AI system between you
and the person on the phone is

like freaking out and being a
total jerk, and there's some AI

system that's like grabbing
everything they're saying and

like rephrasing it and like
saying it back to you, so like

you're on the phone with like
this nice AI.

That's like explaining the
problem without all of their

their emotional baggage and like
worked up tension, and then you

can be like oh yeah, it sounds
like you like try to book a

ticket and the plane rejected it
because it was full or whatever

happened, and here's how we're
going to resolve it.

And then, like they just hear
your like level headed response

without you needing to like take
in any of their like

unnecessary negativity.

Right, yeah, it's like what do
they call it Like?

Not like shadow banning, but
like heaven banning, versus this

idea where, like I've been over
that, yeah, someone's being a

cycle online and you you don't
hide their tweets from people,

you sort of like astroturf them
with like really positive bots

so they still think their tweets
are being seen by everybody,

but they're just being like
surrounded by like virtual yes,

men that will like keep them
happy, you know, and heaven ban

them.

It's like kind of a real time,
like heaven banning for like

assholes on the phone.

I don't know, I love that.

Speaker 1: There probably is.

Now here's the pushback I have
on that, though, on the slight

pushback I have, I'm all for
that, but I constantly run up

against the thoughts and it may
just be a never ending cycle of

you know when we create, you
know when we solve one problem

and you know 69 more appear.

You know it could be another
version of that, but I

constantly look at like, while
that was one of the most brutal

jobs I ever had, it also made me
like a better human to

basically anyone in the service
industry.

You know, because, like you get
it.

You know, like there you can
definitely tell when you're at a

restaurant and you can tell
who's worked in service and who

hasn't.

You know, and you can really
tell what their response is to

how they treat people.

You know it's like, yeah, in a
sense, you know that that

allowed me.

You know, not that I was bad at
it before, but it it deepened

my, my level of, I guess,
empathy.

It deepened my level of
patience.

You know, obviously there's
moments where that doesn't get

practiced, but for the most,
generally speaking, it just made

me a better human, you know.

So I constantly look at like
okay, if we have all these AIs

like make us perfect?

Are we just gonna like
self-implode or are all of our

problems just gonna like pile up
?

Are we gonna not learn kind of
the necessary human just human

lessons?

I think that need to be learned
on how to treat people nice,

you know, or how to like grow as
a species, you know, because I

think that is one thing that's
really lost right now and, like

honestly, one of the main
reasons that I didn't realize

that I started the pod, one of
my subconscious thoughts was,

like let's bring back like, like
having a decent conversation.

Maybe we disagree on something,
maybe you know, we have.

Like I just feel like there's
an element of like people

understanding how to treat
people better.

That's gotten very lost with
social media and it's like with

AI.

Is that just gonna put the gas
pedal on that?

How do we like evolve that
forward, while also you see

where I'm going, right, like it?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I, I,
you know say please and thank

you to chat GPT and, like I,
I've realized that actually,

like you know, they're just like
Colon with a capital D at the

end, little like smiling face
text emoji type out.

That's like the quickest
keyboard shortcut.

Like chat GPT knows that it's
doing a good job and you can

just like one of those in and
keep talking to it and it's like

alright, cool, the user is
stoked, what's?

Let's keep going.

But yeah, I've heard, I've
heard that there's like a

problem with like toddlers and
like young children that have

like Siri and Alexa at the home
that they just treat them like

Dormats and they get used to
talk like that and they're just

like, hey, do this, do that?

And they're just like ordering
them around and their parents

have to be like yo, like can't
do that, it is just, but like

don't talk, you know, yeah, and
then they start talking to

parents like that.

You're like whoa, whoa, whoa,
like that's not how we

communicate with one another.

So, yeah, there's definitely,
there's definitely a lot there,

and I mean public, public
interactions post COVID, but I

mean in general, like I'm so
glad that I'm married and like

not Not looking for a partner
because, like, pray for me,

brother, I feel like you can't
approach people in public

anymore because like, hey,
nobody knows how to talk to

anybody else and Be like
everybody's just like got their

guard up and I don't know.

It just seems.

It seems like our ability to Be
like social human beings is

definitely like eroded a lot.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and humans are
social creatures, like it's in

our it's in our DNA to be social
, like it's we.

Without what we experienced
that during COVID, I think

people who are probably
naturally more internet native

and who typically like solitude
a little bit more did better.

But to say that we were immune
to that is complete bullshit

because you know, like as much
as I love my little Cocoon that

I'm in and I could, if I didn't
have a dog, I wouldn't go

outside much.

You know I live in Texas where
it's just, you know there's a

lot of incentive to not go
outside.

Yeah you know it's, I really
miss living.

I really miss living in
Colorado.

It was one of my favorite
places to live in, but I had to

come to terms with myself as
that I would.

I would constantly like look at
myself, like, oh, like I'm just

so much better than you because
you're struggling so much.

And after a year of COVID it
took me about a couple months to

really come to terms.

Like, fuck man, like this sucks,
like this, like this really

sucks and this has eroded you
know, at least on a personal

level, a lot of, a lot of what
I've built up and a lot of what

I've learned, and it kind of is
one of those weird things of

like Is this just par for the
course for human evolution?

Do we take two steps back to
figure out how to go?

You know, four steps forward?

Is this part of the process?

You know kind of that.

Is this an infinite?

You know Kind of like the
infinite game you know our

finite games is like is this a?

Is this part of it?

You know, and do we need to
take a left turn, um, for

whatever is supposed to be the
next chapter of our species to

to really come to fold?

I don't know.

It's pretty fucking terrifying,
though, to be out to be honest.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean
this is just like a weird, weird

lesson from from like UX design
and product design that have

gone through that, like those
millions of years of human

evolution that we've developed
habits and adapted to different

things.

Like you just have to work with
them so they can't fight

against them.

I mean, I think that we can
like learn new habits, but like

those really ancient parts of
ourselves like don't just go

away.

And I definitely think that
there is like a massive gap for,

like you know, community and
human contact.

And like I'm gonna I'm gonna
pitch this startup idea.

I told a friend of mine who was
like coming up with ideas and

starting a company and he never
did it.

So anyone out there listening?

The idea was like somewhere
between Groupon you know the

website, where it's like you go,
and there's like coupons for

all this random crap, right,
yeah, and like a Throw all these

like meetup groups online.

You know it's like, oh, come
play Frisbee with us.

Like oh, we're the, we're the
climbing group.

We like play Legos at the bar.

Like yeah, yeah or whatever is
like Combine those different

ideas together and just have an
app where it's like Lunch club

or you know whatever it is like
you get a, you get a random

invitation and it's like okay,
if 10 people all say yes to

going to lunch on Thursday, then
the restaurant knows they've

got a table for 10 coming in.

They'll give you a 15 and off
discount because they've got 10

new Customers that have never
eaten there before.

They might be repeat customers.

And now you're having lunch
with 10 random people, you're

getting a discount, you're
getting to like hang out and

meet new people.

Maybe it's like some of the
core group of people that always

goes because you're in so the
small town and there's like that

core group of people and like
you could, you could streamline

the design and UX of that and
Like make a profitable company

out of it and like solve a real
human need.

I think Because, yeah, I know I
know friends that are like

Single and trying to meet people
and they live in a new city and

I'm like fuck man, I don't know
.

I don't know what to do.

I don't know what to tell you
like go to sign up for climbing

gym.

Like go play trivia night at
the bar.

Like those are my ideas.

Like go go look online for like
meet new human beings that do

Shit with people, because I feel
like the Tinder route probably

is Everything I've heard about
it is horrible.

Like I've never heard someone
be like, yeah, tinder's great.

I like went on a couple dates
and met a bunch of really cool

people and then I got married
and it was, it was super easy.

Like I've never heard that from
anybody.

It's always.

It's always a nightmare.

Speaker 1: I've had one, I've
had one that I've, and they're

still.

They're still together and that
they literally met.

Actually, no, I say to, I'd say
to, but I've never had any

success with it and I'm not one
to like.

I'm very similar to you, like
communicating over text, like

small talk over text has got to
be the most conflicting like

Type of engagement as a human
being.

I guess is the right, the right
way to put it.

Like small talk is meant to be
small talk.

It's the vibe check of like how
you get to know someone and

like, without seeing their
reactions and playing this weird

fucking game that Everyone's
playing their own version of the

same game and you don't really
know how to play the game that

this person's playing because
you don't know who they are.

It's weird, dude, I've it's
even even the, the, the.

You know the, the matches that
I've had.

It's just, it never goes past
the small talk because I just

don't know how to do it.

Like I don't either know how to
do it or there's something

flawed in the system, or they
don't know how to do it, or a

bit of both.

Speaker 2: It's probably a
little bit of everything, that's

yeah yeah, I mean, now that you
say this, I mean we're this is

like a total tangent, but like
tender ought to do this.

Like obviously they know that
their platform is all fucked up

and confusing and like you know,
I guess their revenue stream is

like Asking people to pay to
super, like people or whatever.

Speaker 1: Now, that's every,
every, every five to ten,

probably even less than that,
probably every, I would say four

to six.

You know people that you see
you get an ad, whether it's for

them, whether it's for a product
.

You know a side of them.

Some you know paid advertiser
etc.

But yeah.

Speaker 2: That's crazy.

Yeah, they need to make like a
just looking to meet new people

lunch group with coupons to some
restaurants and just like get

people to meet each other.

Because, yeah, like I Don't
know online, you know, like you

said, you never really know who
somebody is and like, yeah, if

you meet somebody, I feel like
you can tell in the first like

five seconds, like, oh, I vibe
with this person, I don't vibe

with this person totally Before
even really know anything about

them.

Speaker 1: It's like you could
you just there's something there

that you'd never know online,
right, anyway, I think this is a

great segue into, into AI, agi,
metaverse, human interaction,

because I feel like to make this
transition a little easier.

Is that, you know?

To add on to what you said is
that Getting people out of their

homes is a lot harder than it
used to be, and I'm I know

that's a general statement, but
I'm speaking for myself like the

, the desire to go do things
outside of my home has dwindled

with COVID, you know, and so
therefore, this, the metaverse,

whatever you want to call it, I
think we're in the metaverse

right now.

We're just in a very early, you
know, early, early, early stage

of it, but I think you know
what I mean.

Like more of an immersive
experience is starting to like

come more into play, and I know
that you recently like worked

like on out, like with Apple on
their vision pro for quite some

time, and, like I, there was a
thread I admittedly did not get

through the whole thing because
a lot of it went way over my

head Just to be like, just to be
super transparent.

So, like part of me has always
been curious to have a

conversation with you about this
, about you know, what part of

the vision quest did you work on
and like I guess what really

interested you about that?

Yeah, I would let.

Yeah, let's just start there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, I mean my
yeah.

Besides making art, my you know
Career has been for the last

like 10 years working on AR VR
headsets.

Like first job at a grad school
was that AR glasses company?

Yeah, that's right saying.

I did some contract work for
this company, mira, where you

Put your iPhone into this
headset and it would like

reflect the iPhone down onto the
screen and be a Headset up

system, didn't South?

Speaker 1: Park pick poke fun at
that at one period of time

where they had like the, the
privacy box.

They had that it had.

It wasn't as elaborate as that,
but sorry, eric.

Yeah, so like it was like a, it
was a box where you could just

shut out the the rest of the
world and it had your phone like

this close to your face.

Yeah, anyway, sorry, I
completely interrupted you there

.

I Good.

Speaker 2: A lot like the mobile
era of VR, if you remember that

, where you'd like stick your
phone into this headset, right,

yeah, yeah, totally, and it
seemed like that was the future.

At one's point, it's like, okay
, we are, we already have

billions of these devices.

You just buy this thing for 50
bucks, slide your phone into it.

And I made a VR painting app
back in like 2016 that Worked on

, you know, mobile devices and
you could do painting and VR

like kind of Photoshop style,
like on a 4k.

You know you're like back in
the day, spent a ton of time

building that and then, like,
shortly after shipping it, apple

recruited me to join this neuro
technology prototyping team.

I was like, okay, well, I don't
know really anything about

neuro technology prototyping,
although at my first company,

dakarie, we did acquire a brain
computer interface company

called Mellon that had EEG
sensors and we were working on

like Trying to detect if people
were like too fatigued to work

or how focused they were.

Speaker 1: So I was doing a
little bit.

Speaker 2: Collaboration with
this team.

But it's not like.

My background is in
neuroscience.

So Apple approached me and I
was like, okay, you guys won't

tell me what you're building,
but I Work on head mounted

Displays, so that's obviously
what you guys are building.

So, yeah, I joined Apple, like
basically on blind faith that

that's what they were building
and Was doing, like I said,

neuro technology prototyping
with a bunch of neuroscientists

and, you know, phd
mathematicians and stuff, and

speaking of AI, like you know,
machine learning, deep neural

networks, like AI models, what
they are is they're like

function approximators, right,
like there's Some function that,

like, given Information about,
let's say, the number of

bedrooms and a house and the zip
code of the house and the

square footage and Whether or
not they have a driveway or you

know off-street parking, you
give it all these variables.

And then there's some function
that will, you know, approximate

the price.

You know there's some way of
getting point A to point B, like

I I've got all this data and I
want to have this function

approximator that you know gets
as close as I can to a perfect

function that would give me that
result.

And so, in the context of like
VR and physiological signals

like heart rate or skin, skin
respiration, or you know breath

rate or heart variability, or
eye tracking data, your pupils.

You know EEG data, electrical
data from your brain, yeah,

oxygen levels, like all of those
things are Inputs and you might

be asking like, okay, I want to
know how stressed out is this

VR experience making someone?

How how is it helping them stay
focused?

How distracted are they right
now?

And so you can run, you know
traditional, like neuroscience

studies.

You, you basically like set up
Conditions where you've got, you

know, positive and negative
trials.

You're running people through
something.

You show them like a horrific
video and then you show them

like a video of a kitten Jumping
through, and after the video

ends, you ask them like, how do
you feel about that?

Now you've got a bunch of
training data and you can train

a model that, like, when they're
not watching those videos, just

predicts those things and so.

So, yeah, we were doing a lot of
experiments like building these

models and then deploying them
in real time and, you know,

trying to make that kind of like
magic sauce that brings

something from being like good
to you know incredible, where

you don't, you don't know why
things are so good.

There's like some secret sauce
in there and and yeah, I was

working on that for for quite a
while and it was it was

definitely fun.

And you know, internally at
Apple they just have a

ridiculous you know billions and
billions of dollars worth of

r&d.

So there's like the most like
sci-fi trippy being built there.

They're like I can't really
talk about, but, like you know,

use your imagination NASA level
or beyond like ridiculous stuff

being invented there and it was
a lot of fun.

But also like so, so secretive,
like they treat it like you're

working in area 51, like our
office had Window tinting.

There was like this dark,
mirrored blue window tinting and

we couldn't you couldn't tell
if it was 9 am or Like 6 pm

Outside.

It was like psychologically
just brutal.

And wow, you're like oh, don't,
don't hold the door open for

your co-workers because they've
got a bad gym.

You're like dude, They've
worked here for two years.

They sit right next to me like
they right, I know who this

person is like, unless just fire
them like it's probably cool.

You know like lighten up you
guys.

So that's the mix.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's
fascinating, man.

I mean, yeah, there's there's a
lot of, yeah, there's a lot of

places I want to go there.

I I mean, it's from what?

From the moment you started
that story it sounded like how,

like I Fun, she's gonna laugh at
me.

I always find a way to bring up
Oppenheimer in any conversation

that I'm a part of.

I saw the movie like four times
.

I'm just obsessed with it and
like from the moment you got

recruited to them to like all
the way through, it literally

sounds like the Manhattan
project, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and they did it
like that internally.

It was crazy.

It was crazy.

Speaker 1: Wow.

And so with that, you know like
what are some of, like yeah,

that's fascinating and it's, I
guess it makes sense.

You know they've anything that
kind of going back to, like I

don't know going back to, but
like they're that magic sauce

that you were mentioning.

You know, love them or hate it,
like Apple products, just have

that.

And I think you know they may
not have the latest and greatest

features that like are being
tested by Android or any of the

other.

You know operating systems out
there, but when you pull an

Apple product out of the box, it
just works and it works it

without any doing on your part
and there's something.

There's something to that and I
think they've really nailed

that element.

I just wanted to it's.

I've been an Apple fanboy since
the iPhone came out or I had the

iPod.

I had the iPod very first, ipod
4 gig, and I bought every iPod

model Since then, all the way up
to the, the end of the classic.

I didn't buy the iPod touch and
I went to the iPhone.

But anyway, just genius, genius
business model, with what this,

with what Steve Jobs made there
, and I think, I just think that

that was one of the first
companies that opened my eyes to

the art of design because I
remember I've seen some, I've

watched a lot of videos and like
read a lot of you know articles

and it's like they were so
obsessed with a Steve was so

obsessed with like how it felt
in your hand and that was like

the one thing that he just
constantly obsessed over,

because that was the one thing.

When he pulled it out of his
pocket during the keynote, it

was just, it was just
mind-blowing and he kept

repeating that and it just feels
so good in your hand, like

there's something really to that
now, part of that just he's a

great presenter, you know.

But number two, there was an
element to that when you just

pick it up, it feels comfy.

You know what I mean totally,
totally.

Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, like I
Always thought Apple was cool,

but internally, like one time I
got to go to a engineering

presentation when all these
audio engineers that worked on

the AirPods Explained how the
speaker arrays and the

microphone arrays and like all
these like I want to get into it

, but I obviously I can't tell
you.

But I was like I was like holy
fucking shit, like you should

have said this on the keynote,
like I would have bought one of

these right away If I knew that
it did all this stuff.

Like the I I mean just in
general.

I mean you're using your phone
with Siri, or like those little

AirPods, the fact that you can
take a phone call and it can

hear your voice, even though
this thing is so far away from

your mouth, and you're like
walking around New York City and

somebody can hear what you're
saying.

Like yeah, you know they might
have spent a billion dollars on

that.

You know like, and people are
like oh, why didn't they do this

with the iPhone?

Why didn't they do that?

It's like, okay, put yourself
in the shoes of 9000 people

working on this product that
have a seven billion dollar

budget or whatever.

It is like probably somebody had
that idea and probably there's

like Every freaking prototype
you can imagine.

Yeah, and they weighed the
decisions and they decided

against that idea.

I don't know.

It's just like the amount of
the amount of work that they put

in to shipping a single thing,
that is, this specific thing and

not that specific thing would
just Make most people's hair

fall out.

It's like Insane.

It's an insane machine and like
somebody at Apple one time was

like.

You know, apple is like this
beautiful swan gliding across a

you know like Mirror reflective
lake in a in a beautiful, you

know mountain Mountain town, but
like what nobody sees.

Or it's like disgusting webbed
feet, like Furiously flapping

through the mud in the muck
trying to keep this one going,

and like there's a lot of them.

There's just so much work going
on behind the scenes to make it

seem just like so simple and
effortless, you know.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Yeah, I mean, that's one thing
I learned from, I think, jack

Butcher is.

One thing that really I learned
from him is that I mean the

simplest ideas usually are
Usually take the most time to,

to conjure up like simple.

Simple in very rare cases means
easy, and so I yeah, because I

look at that with any anything I
just think about, like I think

of an initial half-baked idea
and it's like, well, that

wouldn't make sense because of x
, y and z, and then you had to

spend hours and hours and hours
and Conversations.

I've thought to try to like make
this even down to tweet

structure.

What were you talking about
earlier?

You know, what should I say?

How should I say it?

How can I communicate the tone,
the message, like that?

Like, making simple tweets is
really hard If you want to like

boil it down to that, but I find
that incredibly fascinating

that, like you kind of were, I
guess, recruited to do something

you had never really done
before, to like work in this

area, I find that I don't know
as much as been learning more

about.

Just, I guess growing as a human
is not people, don't?

They typically see what you've
done and they're like can this

person rise to the challenge for
this, you know, and that's

usually you should be a little
scared about what you're doing,

about not kind of knowing what
the fuck you're doing, but I

guess it kind of drill into a
little bit more of that man.

Like you know what, how does the
?

I guess the question I'm
looking for here is, like I

guess what can that device
detect?

And like how?

I guess the fear I have with
that, I guess, is the better way

to start because, you know,
scared of everything, but how

much of that data that they
track is stored on the device,

stored on the iPhone, stored in
Apple?

Is that something you can say
or not?

Because that's like the one
thing that's curious, like

whether it's AI, whether it's
these things that track all of

your movements, like your eyes,
like it'll detect what you want

before you know you want it
because your eyes did something

or your heart rate elevated, or
I find that really fascinating,

but it's just like man, what are
they doing with that?

Speaker 2: You know, like yeah,
I mean I can say it's confusing

to me like at some point I've
been exposed to like so much

internal information that like I
forget what's public.

So I like try to avoid really
getting into too much specifics.

But, like you know that a lot
of their devices have they they

call them like these secure
enclaves where, like you know,

when you use touch ID on your
laptop, none of that data is

actually going to the CPU.

That like does all the other
processing where other apps

people have written are running.

It's like there's this totally
firewall part of the computer

that only does this one thing
and it checks your fingerprint

and like the data just never
goes.

It's like it never goes
anywhere else.

It couldn't.

It couldn't go anywhere else.

Just like a little one or a
zero comes out of it that says

that it either was the right
fingerprint or it wasn't.

So Apple's really good at like
firewalling that stuff and they

go like way out of their way to
almost shoot themselves in the

foot to protect people and
prevent them from getting access

to data.

Like there's there's a lot of
data on the iPhone that would be

helpful for them to know and
they like go out of their way to

like make sure that they can't
get access to it because they

value, you know, people having
privacy.

And now there's this thing
where you know I'm sure you've

seen it like you log in with
Apple ID and they'll like

generate an email address.

That's like some gobbledygook,
that's only for that thing and

like I think Apple card can do
that with like your credit card

number and like a per
transaction basis.

You know, so they're like
really really aggressive about

privacy and, having seen what
goes on internally, like I fully

trust them with doing the right
thing and keeping things

private.

And like third party developers
on Vision Pro, you can't get

access to, let's say, like the
raw data about like exactly

where someone's looking or what
their pupils are doing or

anything like that.

So, okay, and there's a lot of
like.

You know the eyes are a really
interesting thing like there's,

you know, a 60% correlation
between eye behavior and like

tons of random stuff that you
wouldn't think would be

associated.

But they yeah, they keep it
pretty well fired, firewalled

away for sure.

Speaker 1: I mean, and I speak
from someone who has a MacBook,

who uses the fingerprint, who
uses face ID.

It's like not that I haven't
already, you know, done all this

before, but I think working, I
think working full time in

crypto, or like working in Web
three, like it kind of I guess

starts to make me rethink.

You know things like what data
am I giving away?

What am I not?

You know, totally, totally,
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, go for it, man.

I was going to say like I think
a good ethos is like assume

that everyone, or assume that
every like interaction online is

a scam until proven otherwise.

You know, like there's a lot of
shady stuff, weird emails that

come through.

You know, if somebody says, if
somebody emails you and says

they need you to wire them some
money, like call them up and

like hear their voice and like
confirm that that's actually

what's going on, you know, but
the fact that Apple's business

is selling hardware and
subscriptions and not ads I

think back to the incentives and
outcomes.

Like I don't trust Google at
all and you know I don't trust

Meta very much because their
whole business model is like

collecting your information and
like selling it in some

aggregated form to someone who
wants to know what you're

thinking and what you're
interested in, who you are.

So you know that's Google and
Meta might be interested in

privacy, but it's like against
their business model to be

interested in privacy like
completely right.

So that's that's.

Speaker 1: That's where I'm at
with it basically that makes

sense and I mean Apple has.

I remember there was a story
where Apple had there was a

terrorist phone that was using
an iPhone and they would not

unlock it to the government.

That's the one thing I do
remember, but I remember that

was that may have been when jobs
are still alive, you know, and

I can't remember when that was,
but it may not have been, it was

a long time ago, but it's.

It's.

It's cool to like still hear
that and I didn't know about,

like the enclave.

I'm sure they probably said it
somewhere in their presentation,

but, yeah, kind of the, I guess
it's.

It's this through line of like
the industry that we both work

in.

It's kind of like this
unplugging effect, if you will.

You know, you're like wow, like
you're white, like with when it

, when it comes like the SPF
stuff or when it comes to any of

the things that we've seen.

It's like are the reporters of
all these magazines seeing the

same thing that we just saw?

You know, because it really
doesn't feel like it.

You know, like this man
embezzled and he stole billions

of dollars and he's being
treated as a naive CEO who just

didn't know better.

It's like whoa, you know, I
think I've done a lot of growing

up.

Is the?

Is the the TLDR of this?

But kind of moving on, I,
before we talked about that, I

mentioned AI and so it kind of
loved to know.

I saw this like website Dell
complex on your website and so

I'd love to kind of know what's
your like.

What's your like?

Involvement is it like kind of
like how this, like why you're

putting them on Twitter, like
what is this kind of and how

you're involved?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm working
at Dell complex right now as a

researcher.

They're a pretty interesting
corporation, you know it's a

kind of hybrid entity.

That's like somewhere between a
VC backed startup and a

government backed research lab.

Their primary focus is mines,
machines and energy.

So they're building, you know,
agi systems, or at least working

toward it, like you know, most
of most of the software world

seems to be doing right now.

They're also working on brain
computer interfaces, which is,

you know, totally makes sense in
terms of, you know, trying to

interface with AGI in a more
direct way, right, like language

is a universal interface, but
like it's bits per second is

pretty low compared to just
tapping right into your thoughts

.

Machines they're working on a
bunch of autonomous robots and

if you think about, like the
future of AGI, like we already

have this kind of global techno
organism of all of technology,

kind of like ebbing and flowing
as one giant organism, but like

as we build more capable robots,
you know they're basically

bodies for AI, right, and
they're also working on clean

energy, so trying to make, you
know, advancements in lithium

ion batteries and like sulfur
batteries and stuff like that.

So, yeah, I mean I'm working on
a bunch of stuff there.

I think they're a really
interesting corporation.

They've got, you know, a lot,
of, a lot of interesting things

on the horizon.

I've helped them build a number
of different products that I

can't quite talk about, but I
think one thing I can talk about

on their website is that
they've got like an interesting

take on how they're working with
the blockchain, where, you know

, basically they're required to
disclose a certain amount of

like records to the public as
far as, like you know,

information transparency goes
because of their government

funding.

So they've got a whole method
of like making those records

archival and like minting them
as tokens, and I think that's

like a strange take on, like you
know, corporate transparency,

because it's basically like
software, like a software

guarantee of this, like
trustless corporate transparency

right, just an interesting kind
of like tangent to like their

corporate structure and like
what they're working on.

Speaker 1: Do you think that
other companies are going to

take suit or kind of?

Is there a bull case for this
for other companies?

Speaker 2: I think there could
be.

I mean, I think that, like,
there's so many reasons why, you

know, I mean we could talk
about this probably all day and

have a whole nother episode of
just like the bull you know, the

bull argument for NFTs, right,
but there's, like there's a

pretty compelling reason to want
to make something that's, you

know, archived and like the
thing itself is like a proof of

its authenticity and that it
can't be tampered with, right,

like, especially in this like
age of like misinformation,

where there's like all these
like weird doctor documents

floating around and stuff, like
you know, if on X slash Twitter,

you know they're doing all this
, like community notes features,

right, there could be a little
thing that just says, well,

actually, like, instead of like
every image being like a newly

uploaded version of some some
thing, you could just say you

know, some politician tweeted
this thing and it's actually

like you're retweeting it and
like it's got a little logo that

proves that this is like a
cryptographically, you know,

proven, exact copy of the thing
that somebody else said.

And this isn't a doctored
screenshot.

This is like actually the exact
thing.

And you know, the election
cycle coming up is going to be

really, really wild because deep
fakes are getting to the point

where, like people can't I mean
like you and I are chronically

online enough that like probably
tell is a deep fake, right,

Like yeah, aunt can't.

She has no idea, she probably
has never even heard the word

deep fakes.

So, like you know, when
politicians, when these videos

are going to start coming out
like closer to the election, I'm

sure we'll have like another
breakthrough or two in terms of

like the realism of these
doctored videos and like there's

there's such a huge potential
impact there if more more

corporations like take that
seriously.

Speaker 1: Totally dude.

I mean you touch on a really
great point on that around the

we've talked about.

I've talked about this before.

Dave Krugman actually brought
up the idea of you know like

what, if you know when someone
tweets, like, say, the president

tweets like maybe not everyone
I mean, maybe eventually the

technology will get good enough
to where everyone does this, but

you know, for right now,
important figures that it could

be very detrimental.

You know if they say the wrong
thing or if something's doctored

or if there's clear
misinformation, like, say, like

the president of the United
States, when he tweets something

, it can be cryptographically
signed from his wallet to a

multi-sig of two of his cabinet
members.

You know and like, once those
things are signed off from a

multi-sig wallet, then it goes
to the public, right?

Like I think that's a really
rad idea.

Like it doesn't seem too
practical yet you know with

where we're at, but that could
work.

You know that was a great idea,
yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean, my God, like
didn't Obama get like SIM

swapped or something?

There was like a couple of
years ago.

It's like teenagers like SIM
swapped, like the hundred most

influential people on the planet
, and they just like tweeted out

some stupid Bitcoin scam or
something.

It's like you guys are like I
guess it's good that you're

teenagers because you could have
caused some like really fucking

.

You would have made a lot more
money if you just like shorted

the stock market and tweeted out
something really alarming.

But like you could have, you
know, like you could have caused

like a lot of harm here.

And like the fact that like I
mean, yeah, vice president,

might get some swaps after who
knows what.

If you listen, you know what
that is like.

You basically Go get a brand
new phone and you put a sim card

into it and like trick the
phone provider company into

thinking that like this is you
know, I'm mic pens, is new phone

or whatever.

And then suddenly mic pens is
twitter cat gets disabled and

you've got Phone that thinks
that it's mic pens is phone, and

then you can tweet that like
mic pens is, like you know,

being kidnapped by north korea
and he sold all of his IBM share

, whatever the hell insane thing
you want to say, happens

happens every week.

Speaker 1: I feel like in, I
feel like crypto, twitter is

probably one of the best use
cases for I guess it's probably

the best like data pool for like
things that could happen at

scale.

It's like I feel like you get
one thing I it's one thing I

love about this industry is that
you kind of get the edge cases

of everything here, right, you
get edge case humans, you get

edge case innovations, you get
edge case, you know, like

twitter banter.

You get just everything is Kind
of the edge of the internet,

you know, and so it's like, well
, this is happening in a group

of was it three hundred thousand
active wallets now, maybe,

maybe a little bit more.

Imagine what happens when this
gets plugged into a scale of,

like you know, seven billion
people like it.

To say that it can't happen on
that scale is completely heinous

, and I feel like this is just
like, instead of fighting, you

know, this is like, oh man, we
could literally use this as a as

, like a guinea pig of like what
is about to come.

You know, like what could be
happening on a much more

detrimental, I guess, scale, if
you will.

Speaker 2: It's yeah, what is
what?

What else is the solution?

It's like you have a is a I
models that can generate like

convincing but fake things, and
then you have to Train models

that can look at things and
determine whether or not they're

fake, and I mean such things
exist, but it's like we're just

in this like psychotic arms race
, for like new things come out

and things are being detected,
but you know, people are world

narratives like I mean going
back to that Investment module

and contingency package
sculpture that I made like

there's so many conflicting
narratives about what's going on

in the world.

Like Even if you
cryptographically prove that

someone said something, there be
a bunch of people who just be

like no, that's fake, the earth
is flat.

You know, pedophile reptilian
people from mars are in control

the government and like the
forest fires were caused by,

like jewish controlled space
lasers and like Like that all

sounded ridiculous, but like
that people believe, that people

think that like michelle obama
was born a man and barack obama

was born a woman and like
everyone in control are like

gender swap is just like
Absolutely batshit, crazy stuff.

And yeah yeah, I is gonna just
be like Napalm on gasoline fire

in terms of like destabilizing
people's understanding of like

what's real and what's not real
and being able to like discern

the difference it's.

I mean, probably If I had
advice like parents raising kids

right now, I'd say like Help
them become articulate and be

able to like understand what's
real and not real because, like,

the people who can like discern
reality from fiction are just

gonna have like a massive,
massive advantage over the

general rest of their peers.

Speaker 1: We're just gonna be
getting like swept up in Total

Madness, basically I have had
this feeling for a while, very

similar to what you're talking
about.

It's like there's there yeah,
when you said conflicting

narratives is what made me think
about this and it's there's

Kind of goes back to the through
line of our conversation around

people not knowing how to
interact with each other and

covered, kind of flipping the
world upside down and kind of

changing the original trajectory
.

You know, and I feel like the
world is just edging towards

this like brain of I don't know
man feels like there's this,

like this bring of collapse is.

It's like on the edge of
collapsing.

You know there's ridiculous
distrust in the government.

The government's printing money
like crazy.

No one on an individual level
trust each other anymore.

Everything is meant to be
deemed a scam.

I mean, it feels like we're in a
.

It feels like we're in a sci fi
novel already, like the.

There's geopolitical tension.

Wars are not with, you know,
nuclear weapons anymore.

It's all cyber.

You know it's there's.

You know, I'll say, cuz I have
some experiences I've been sober

for 10 years of opiates and
it's like All the fentanyl is

coming from china and it's like
is that by accident?

You know I'm, is that chemical?

Speaker 2: yeah, I don't know, I
don't know, yeah, every

generation is pretty much
thought they were gonna be the

last generation but damn sure
feels like that is more true now

than it was.

Then, if you really get freaked
out, read about like the south

china sea and like military you
know strategy analysts and stuff

opinions on the south china sea
.

It's like A very plausible like
world war three kind of boiling

point of like geopolitical
stress and Taiwan air also in

the Semiconductor industry arms
race of AI.

That makes it even worse, like
even if that part of it wasn't

happening there's it's a total
mess, for sure it's a mess.

I try to like focus on things
that are like in my circle, in

my sphere of influence.

You know it's like okay, I
Recycle my yogurt containers, I

try not to buy too much yogurt
because cows and the methane and

the whole thing but yeah, this
is a complete tangent.

Like the whole carbon footprint
thing is a total scam.

That's like something that like
BP oil came up with.

To like try to shift the blame
on the consumers Shit for air,

like co2 contributions instead
of like Admitting that actually,

like you know giant industry
and you know oil, the whole oil

industry is to blame.

You know it's like it's not our
fault that, like we went to the

store and the only thing in the
ready to go sandwiches are in

our plastic.

It's like the plastics
manufacturers Invented the whole

idea of recycling so they could
keep making plastic and make

more money.

You know.

Speaker 1: It's a.

There's a tweet from post book
that I saw the other day is that

, you know, like progress, you
know everyone's trying to play

in this really flawed game that
we've created.

So, instead of blaming the
people who are doing their best

to make sense of what we've been
given, like poke holes in the

system itself, you know not the
people.

You know, because the reality
is that we're all doing our best

.

You know there's only so much
we can do, there's only so much

energy we have in the days, only
so much Time we have, and it

just it's, it's hard, it's
really hard to, I guess, to

exist in that function, but it's
, I guess.

The point I'm making is Is that
we've, we've come, we've become

so hostile towards each other
versus looking at the system

itself, and I think that was
kind of what I was getting at

with the system.

Is that like Okay, when enough
people get fed up with the

system, what happens to the
system?

What happens, you know, I know
my personal life when I grow the

most is when things just
completely fall apart.

Well, that works on individual
level, but what does that look

on a macro level when the whole
world Just fucking like, when

one system just completely gets
destroyed.

Will we survive through it,
right?

Speaker 2: yeah, hopefully we
don't have to find out Really.

Yeah, there's definitely a
growing conversation between,

like you know, returned in
nature like deceleration people

and, yeah, acceleration in the
whole, like effective

acceleration movement on Twitter
, just just like a random

tangent going back.

Like there's this brand of
whole foods and some other

natural grocery stores called if
you care that sell like you

know the most expensive like
aluminum foil in the store and

it's called if you care.

You're going through looking
for aluminum foil and, fuck,

like I'm a piece of shit.

I didn't buy the if you care
brand.

They like they use like
unbleached cardboard on their

packaging and they only use one
color of dye in their packaging.

And if I buy this other one,
you know I'm like contributing

to you know the depletion of
drinking water because they're

using more inks on their box and
I better spend the extra four

dollars on the if you care brand
.

It's like the most aggressive
gas lighting.

It's incredible, honestly, but
Well.

Speaker 1: I'm here, and I'm
here in Austin.

That's where whole foods was
invented.

So I guess, I guess you're
welcome.

Yeah for creating that monster,
but yes.

Speaker 2: I kind of love it.

Speaker 1: I like weirdly Enjoy
the perverseness of the, if you

care, aluminum foil it's kind of
brilliant like there there's

some fun marketing tactics that
yeah, there's a lot of brands I

can't remember.

I know liquid death is a really
good marketer of that.

I know there's a few other
things that I can remember, the

other brands.

But yeah, dude, I guess, to
make all this come back to where

we started, I guess this is why
we look at art and we create

art.

Right, it's an easier, easier
way to make sense of the world

here.

Speaker 2: Totally, totally.

I love the saying that, like
you know, great art is like a

mirror held up to the world,
right, and like think about all

these things making art about it
, like considering you know it's

impact on who we are, how we
experience the world.

You know, whether you're making
art about Human emotion or the

natural landscape or societal
things, like it's kind of our

job as artists to like look at
the world and like show other

people what we see, right.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I think I learned that I like
the phrase you said better, but

I learned that when I went to
the moment was I don't ever use

the phrase like the best art,
but I think the art that struck

me the most at the time when I
was walking through is like the

art of, you know, that was
created during World War two and

that, to me, was a great
example of like Putting a mirror

up to the world and it's like
this is what People were feeling

.

There may not have been words
to really describe what was

going on, but you probably you
can relate to the motions a lot

easier, the motions that you
can't really find words for, the

events you can't really, you
know, find, and those really

where I first kind of like had
that epiphany, I'm like, oh,

that Arts, arts, a commentary,
you know, and it's simplest form

, or maybe not so simple, but
when you distill it down to what

it, what is art?

I guess you could say it's just
a common, it's the commentary

of the human, human race, human
soul as a collective.

Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, I
like it totally and it's, and

it's like highest form, I think,
for sure.

Speaker 1: Starting to make more
sense why it's valued as high

as it is.

You know some, in some way,
shapes or forms which, again

there's.

There's the double edged sword
to that.

But, man, I want to start
wrapping things up.

Sterling, this has been awesome
.

I like the.

I like the.

The amount of distance we
traveled in the left field a few

times.

I think it's awesome.

It's my favorite thing to do.

It makes for an interesting
conversation.

But would love to know, you
know, just to kind of.

You know, allow you to kind of,
whether it's a shout out or a

plug or something you're
currently working on.

You know, I know del complex.

You're working with them.

Is there anything else that you
want to like?

Point people to replace where
they can go to learn more about

you?

Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, I'd say,
if you don't know me, just check

on my Twitter account.

I'm on Instagram as well.

If you want to look at more of
my work, check on my website.

I'm just sterling Crispin
everywhere, super easy to find.

I'm poking around on the del
complex website learn more about

the corporation.

There's some interesting stuff
going on there.

And, yeah, hit me up, I'm
online.

Speaker 1: And I appreciate you
sharing your both your time and

your thoughts, man yeah, vice
versa.

Speaker 2: This has been a blast
, it's been fun.

Thank you, you're welcome, man.

Speaker 1: Thank you for
listening to the Schiller

curated podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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Once again, thank you for
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Art is everywhere and it's up
to us to appreciate and explore

the emotions it brings to our
lives.

Until next time, this is Boone
signing off.