Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to Vaulted, a

Web3 podcast series from the
Schiller Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on May 30th 2022.

In features Dave Krugman, a
photographer and co-founder of

Allships.

In this episode, dave and I
discuss mental models around

building networks NFTs being the
cultural layer of crypto and

how he uses blockchain tech to
not only build but empower his

community.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Dave.

All right, gm, dave, how are
you man?

Speaker 2: GM, gm, I'm doing
well, thank you.

Speaker 1: Good, good man, how's
you know like, I know we tried

a little bit before this, but
man, how's the you know?

I guess how's the weather in
New York was just some corny

little stuff.

Speaker 2: It's honestly a
beautiful day.

Spring is finally here.

It's cool about New York in the
spring is that we really earn

the good weather here.

So like all winter everyone's
miserable and bitter, like kind

of you know vagrant bitterness.

I grew up in Boston so I'm used
to that.

But what that does is it kind
of creates this pressure system

that gets released the second
the weather's nice so you can

walk outside right now and
everyone's like high-fiving and

smiling.

It's like Mr Rogers
neighborhood out there.

Speaker 1: That's awesome man.

Speaker 2: I'm thrilled.

I can't wait to go out tonight
and see more.

Speaker 1: That's sick, man, I
mean.

Even I mean you got to
experience a taste of it here in

Texas.

It wasn't.

It wasn't atrocious here when
we, when we met back at South by

.

But that's kind of like us
after summer when we get those

random days of fall, like we get
those like random days and even

even, like the past week, it's
been 96 and 100% humidity, and

so today is like 88 and like 40%
humidity.

So it's kind of like the same
energy where it's like Texans at

like anytime below 90.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, now we
didn't quite, I'm going to be

back for coin desk consensus.

I'm speaking for them, oh shit.

So I'll be back down there June
9th through the 12th.

We should definitely get
together.

Speaker 1: Hell yeah, man, is
that in?

Is that in Austin?

Yep Lit?

Okay, all right, yeah, there's
a lot going on.

Speaker 2: We'll talk off mic
about everything I can get you.

I can get you in the mix, for
sure.

Speaker 1: I appreciate it, dave
.

Well, man, I've been.

So I actually, just to give the
audience a little, I always

like telling people how I found
you know people I bring on here.

Man, I was actually first like
a member, like I, like the first

, like I guess my first
introduction to like NFT

photography in general was like
a chain of events through these,

then through the photo
fractional fund, and then, you

know, and then you were on the
second round of the photo, like

the photovolts.

So that's how you know and,
honestly, like the people that

were on the first round, it's
like I found you through them

before this.

And then it just so happened
that you know, you came up on

the second round, which super
like wild concept, super weird

and heady, like you know NFTs
and DeFi, and you know I still

don't fully understand it, but
you know it got me into a great

group of people, man.

So you know, for those who
don't man, those who don't know

you and who are listening to
them, man, they've given quite a

quick introduction to yourself.

Speaker 2: Yeah, great, thank
you.

Thank you for the kind words
too.

Amen.

My name is Dave Krugman.

I'm a Brooklyn based crypto
artist, but I'm also a writer.

I'm kind of just like a all
around artist type.

I love making things.

One of my endeavors that I like
to build upon is building

community, and to that end, I
started right when COVID hit.

I started an online community
called All Ships, as an arising

tide raises all ships, and you
can find that at allshipsco, and

what it is is.

It's kind of like a collection
of conversations that I've had

with different people in the web
three space artists, collectors

, builders, everything like that
.

The thing that brings me the
most joy in this life is

treating circumstances by which
people can connect like three

things that I put together.

Well, whether it's a in real
life event or online space or an

introduction that can change
someone's life, I really feel

like that's my purpose and
that's why I'm here, and since

the web three space is so
nascent and so new, those

opportunities abound.

They're everywhere.

Every single day, I'm meeting
new people.

I'm able to connect those
people with other people.

I'm able to enjoy the best
parts of life with the best

people that I can find, and
that's absolutely what's been

happening over the past couple
of years in the space.

Speaker 1: That's sick, man.

I think that you know something
you touched on that I couldn't

like have it like.

I knew I felt it but I couldn't
really put words to it was that

you know there's there was
networking in the earlier

versions of the internet, but it
doesn't.

It seems a lot different here,
because when you network,

there's almost like a guaranteed
opportunity at like every

network point.

Like it's like there's there's
so much, and not only that, but

it's everyone's just trying to
do things here, like there's no

staleness, there's no stagnancy,
there's no, everyone's just

fucking moving here.

And I think that was like.

What was super attractive to me
is that, like you know, even my

earlier content days and like
Twitch and gaming content

creation, it was just so like
people were just trying to get

you to watch their stream and
they weren't actually trying to

contribute, like not that it's
not like value, like there's

some streamers I really enjoy
watching and they do provide

value, but for the most part it
was.

There was no two way street.

There was no actual value being
transmitted on each side.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what's
interesting is this.

This kind of always happens
with networks when there's a new

network formed, the nodes in
that network are all like very

tightly bundled and and there's
this kind of beautiful interplay

between all the different
players and there's real

building.

And then as the network scales,
you know those, those core

nodes get further and further
apart and more, more nodes enter

and the complexity evolves and
you kind of lose that that

little village sense of of the
community.

So right now we're in the
moment of that's where it's

still like, you know, when I go
to NFT LA or when I was in

Austin, like I'd walk into a
room and I basically know

everybody in the room, right.

I don't know if it's before or
not, but I've talked to them on

Twitter or it's just still small
enough that there's a lot of

excitement and the playing field
is still relatively level

compared to the other networks
that we've been involved in over

the years.

The best comparison in my mind
would be you know, I was very

early to Instagram and the early
days of Instagram, like I knew

every photographer that had
Instagram.

We're all talking and so excited
and building new communities

and new technologies and as
Instagram scaled and then got

bought by Facebook and then
mega-scaled and now it's

unrecognizable and all of those
you know the core relationships

that I made in the early days
are some of my best friends now,

but a lot of people fell off
along the way and you know it's

it's kind of in those late stage
of that network where become a

completely different thing and
whenever that happens, you know,

whenever the network grows
beyond a certain point, I start

to it doesn't feel like home
anymore and I that's when I'm

always looking for the next big
thing.

And that's why I was able to be
open to the idea of NFTs is

because I was already burnt out
and frustrated by the mechanics

of algorithmic social media,
which is a whole can of worms.

But yeah, you know, basically I
started all ships as like a

rebellion effort against Darth.

Speaker 1: Zuckerberg.

I love that man and I think
that that was one of the things

that attracted me most, because
I felt like I missed out on the

creative like on web two.

You know, like early Instagram
days early, you know, like that

was really where I didn't.

I didn't really understand like
what my role and I didn't

really see myself as a creative.

Back then I wasn't creating
content of any sort, so that was

part of I didn't come into like
the late stage of web two and

that was part of my cope.

Was that like, is this really
it?

Is this like the best that the
internet has to offer?

Is this?

And thank God it wasn't.

But I want to one of the zoom in
on one of your points.

Is that like, I think that I
want to and I want to know if

you see it this way again, we're
still, like I'm only a year

into this, so you know, this is
my first bear cycle.

Yeah, I came in right at the
bull, like right at the people

sales when I was like, when I
first came in, do you see that

like, when it comes to this
being tied to like a financial

currency?

You know, you know Ethereum,
whether it's Ethereum, you know

any other tokens that have an FT
or chains that have NFTs?

Do you think that, like every
time the community gets too big,

like it's almost like an
advantage that the market like

corrects itself and all of the
people who aren't supposed to be

here kind of leave?

You see it as a positive or a
negative?

Speaker 2: That's a really,
really good question.

It's complicated, I think.

I think that I actually think
that NFTs are kind of a new

paradigm, even in crypto.

I don't think we've really
experienced a true NFT cycle.

Speaker 1: I think that very
like.

Speaker 2: I don't think we can
make a one to one comparison

between crypto cycles and NFT
cycles, even though they're both

on blockchain and crypto
products, so to speak, and

connected in the market.

But I think that, you know,
it's very easy for people to

freak out and dump a bag of
coins.

They don't really feel much
identity besides their

attachment to the community a
little bit.

But when you start building
tribes around visual identity

and art and artists, it's much
harder to let those things go,

especially let them go at a loss
.

And so what you're seeing right
now, which is really

interesting, is the market is
like completely, you know,

dumping out on all sorts of
different coins.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's in
shambles.

Speaker 2: For historical
context.

We're speaking right after the
absolute crash of Luna and UST,

but you know we're not seeing
like an equivalent bottoming out

of NFTs yet.

We might, we'll see but I think
what it is is like you know

somebody who's been repping
their Kingboard Ape for like a

full year now, which is like a
decade in NFTs.

That's a much bigger loss to
them because they're losing this

identity layer, and so I just I
just bring that up to say like

I don't think anyone really
knows if these cycles are just

embedded, so it's going to be a
very interesting thing to watch

unfold.

The other thing I want to bring
up to your point is there's

like all currency in my mind is
rooted in community, so

Instagram had a currency.

The currency was attention.

The currency is the ability to
distribute information.

So if I build up a big
Instagram account and I have a

high distribution rate and high
visibility, high attention bank,

I can literally convert that
attention and distribution into.

I can convert that into USD
through grand deals.

That's how I made my living up
until NFTs.

I think the only thing new here
is that now we have digital

objects and now we have digital
markets and we have a native

currency for those markets as
creatives.

So it's interesting.

I mean, I feel like if you
could like track cycles of

attention in web two, maybe
those would track forwards to

cycles of NFTs as well.

Because I really think that even
Fiat is just.

It's just.

Fiat is a token of value
storage so that you can move,

store, you can move value across
space and time so that we can

have more, we can do more
complex things with our

economies.

And I think NFTs are that too.

Like people who join my
community are like kind of

making a bet that they're token
they hold.

That signifies their holdings
in my community will allow them

access to all the value I create
in the future.

So I guess that's a really like
long and convoluted answer.

But there is this interesting
self-regulating mechanism of

like boom and bust.

But I think that's probably
just.

That's like all a culture
probably.

Speaker 1: That was.

So that was what I wanted to
touch on.

I've been having this thought
is that because I like it's been

very interesting you mentioned,
like the UST and Terra Collapse

like having like I've been
following or I've been diving

into a little bit more of CT,
you know, like crypto, twitter

and just it's very.

The timeline is very
interesting right now for me

Because, like you know, there's
still this like this bullishness

, you know, even though it's not
like back it was in August to

August, september of 21, but
there's still like this, really

like like good energy and NFTs,
at least from what I see.

And then, like CT, everyone's
like losing their hair and

people have like committed
suicide and people are like

jumping off, like it's
completely polarized.

There's no in between and it's
such a different feeling.

But the thought that I had is
that, like you know, there's and

people that are in CT are, like
you know, like look, we've been

here before Like this is things
like this happen, maybe not to

this magnitude and happen this
fast, but we've been through

this before and my thought is
that, like on the NFT side, it's

like well, to your point early,
we haven't really had that.

So what impact does culture
have on like a bear market for

cryptocurrency.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah so I think it's
a great question and actually a

very, a very astute observation
on your part.

I think the difference is that
in Coldborn, bell of the Museum

of Crypto, art had a great quote
when I first got into NFTs.

He was we're all on Clubhouse
and he said he said NFTs are a

hack to get the most creative
people in the world using

blockchain technologies.

And I was like, wow, that's
really brilliant.

And what I'm experiencing is
somebody who was introduced to

crypto through NFTs.

I was not in crypto at all
before Same yep, and I hear

stories about the DeFi day, you
know, defi summer and then

before that, the ICO craze and
everything those crazy cycles as

well.

The difference is that NFTs are
the cultural layer of crypto.

Like being a Bitcoin maxi is
not cultural, it's not a culture

.

I mean, I think it could be
like yeah for sure, it could be

like a toxic culture or
something like that.

Like, look, there's just
something about true culture.

In the same way that
traditional financial markets

are extremely interwoven with
the most important parts of

human culture art, museums, art,
you know, galleries, the ballet

, opera all the things that make
us the most human are

intertwined with our financial
systems.

Anyway, I think that what is
happening with NFTs is we're

building, in the same way that
cryptocurrencies are attempting

to build, a parallel economy.

We're trying to build parallel
culture because we never got to

play in the arena that is
dominated by the media and

celebrities.

In the same way that social
media allowed artists like

myself to be self-published and
to decentralize the distribution

of rich media like videos and
photos and stuff like that, once

the technology got to a certain
point, all of a sudden we don't

need the gatekeepers of Kandey
Nast to reach an audience, they

had to flip and come to people
like me and be like will you

promote Kandey Nast on Instagram
?

I think what's happening now is
we have been building the

cultural layer of blockchain in
a way that has never existed.

I don't think it's going
anywhere.

I think that I'm just not even a
little phased by this downturn.

I just think it's like yeah, of
course, nfts will track the

crypto market a little bit,
because they're intrinsically

tied together and they're all
operating on the same protocols

and systems.

But culture is something that
is so deeply human and so deeply

important to us art, music,
performance, events, everything

like that Because we've been
forced, via COVID, basically to

accelerate the process of
converting much of our social

interaction to digital spaces.

All of the culture that we're
used to in the real world needs

to be, and is being, replicated
in these digital spaces, and the

only way that happens is NFTs.

I'm just tremendously bullish
on the future of this technology

, despite any market movement,
even if ETH keeps going down.

I'm not really in it to like,
oh, I'm going to make $10

million on a trade and then I'm
going to walk away.

This is the future of how we
build culture.

I don't if I'm a broke artist
on blockchain.

I'm still going to build on
blockchain because I think that

this is absolutely the future of
everything cultural and

artistic.

Speaker 1: I do too.

I think that we're already
starting to see a lot of ways

where there's art that's being
created on chain that otherwise

couldn't be done without a smart
contract, and the way it's like

you even look at some of Ben
Strauss with what he's doing

with transient.

It's like that stuff you
combine code with art and that

can't be done physically.

Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought
up Ben Strauss.

I think he's one of the most
brilliant artists and builders

working today, especially in
blockchain.

But I'd just say in general
Stay tuned, because something's

coming up for me.

Speaker 1: Let's go.

I was hoping that you'd say
something like that man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know
when this is going to come out,

so I don't want to say too much.

That's fine, but yeah, we're
deep in the weeds and we have

some really amazing stuff coming
.

He's brilliant.

The other thing is that
blockchain actually enables ways

to build community that didn't
exist before.

Another company I'd love to
shout out is Manifoldxyz.

I did my project Drive with
Manifold and they've done all my

contracts for everything else.

What they allow is I have a
dashboard where I can see

everyone who's holding what
token.

I can organize it.

I can say oh, this is my
biggest collector.

Then I can make another NFT and
be like airdrop it to everybody

that has this token ID.

All of a sudden, boom, in a
frictionless way.

I'm sending new product out to
a very wide audience of people

with a click of a button.

Speaker 1: If I was doing this
with traditional art.

Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I'm
going to send a book out to

everybody that has collected one
of my pieces.

I'd be in the post office all
day.

The ability to build community
through blockchain technologies

and to use the technology to
distribute digital objects in

new and novel ways.

We're just scratching the
surface of what's possible.

Speaker 1: I love that man.

I spend a lot of time when I'm
not recording and when I'm not

well, basically anytime I'm not
here.

Everywhere I go, there's some
way, shape or form that my

podcast and Web Theory and
Crypto and NFTs gets brought up

to just the everyday people that
I interact with and some of my

other physical communities.

There are going to be some new
people that are listening to

this.

When it comes to cool
airdropping a piece of art, why

is that valuable that you can
give someone a new piece of work

with the click of a button?

And if it's just an image, what
does that allow your community

to do?

What does that enable them to
do?

What does that?

Speaker 2: Well, honestly, the
possibilities are endless, my

friend, I think one of the
biggest mistakes people make is

they think, oh, I'm sending you
an image.

You're not sending someone an
image.

You're sending them a key.

It's a token, it's a unique
identifier, much like one key

that opens up a certain lock and
then you get to determine which

locks this key will open.

For example, I'll just keep
leaking alpha about my next drop

, because it's about that time.

Everyone who holds one of my
drive cars in a project drive

you can search it on Open C if
you don't know it.

Drive by Dave Krugman.

Those holders are super loyal
and it's a really great group of

people and they've held these
vehicles for almost a year now.

The floor is five-eaf, they're
diamond-handed and I'm like how

do I reward these?

people for believing in me so
much.

This is like how do I do this?

Meanwhile?

I have tons of people who want
to collect my work now, but I've

minted very scarcely and I
don't have a lot of supply out

there In terms of my own things
that emanate from my own

contract, like not collabs and
not big projects.

The floor is very for my
one-of-one works is very

unapproachable to most people.

I can kill two birds with one
stone here and say I can find a

way to reward my drive holders
for believing in me last

September which was like ancient
history now while also opening

up the supply to new people at a
reasonable price that want to

get into my ecosystem.

The way I'm going to do this is
, my next project is a much

bigger collection than I've ever
done.

I'm still one-of-one, though,
and if you hold a drive car, I'm

saying that you already have
the gas, so you know it's like

it's a little joke about cars.

Forgive me, but drive holders
only have to pay gas for my next

min, and they don't have to pay
me anything else.

You know, whatever the network
says that day they'll get first

dibs.

They can.

They can min theirs before
anyone else.

And my super rarehold.

I've included every kind of
part of my ecosystem in this, my

super rareholders get three
freements of this.

My nifty gateway holders will
have whitelist opportunities.

I'm really just trying to.

You know, use NFTs as like
incentive mechanisms at all

times.

How do I incentivize people to
participate in the ecosystem?

And one way you can do that is
to offer them early access or to

offer them special privileges.

You know I run all shifts.

We're launching our store
tomorrow.

People who hold my NFTs will
get 20% off the entire store.

Speaker 1: You know I'm like how
am I not like.

Speaker 2: I'll just give it to
you at cost and then you know

you can like.

I'm always looking to add some
form of advantage or utility to

use a buzzword into the keys.

Quote, unquote that I'm
dropping I like that man, I like

that.

Speaker 1: And I do that because
, like I'm super like, like I'm

already used to this and so I
like I've seen it a lot, so I

like to like break that down
into you know literal, like kind

of like Michael Scott, like
break it down to me like I'm a

five year old, because when I
first came in here I didn't

understand any of this.

You know what I mean.

Like I didn't understand, like
what airdrops meant, and like

I'm like does everyone just use
an iPhone?

How does like?

That's a very Apple term, you
know like.

Speaker 2: I had no idea what
Like I've never even made that

comparison in my head.

That's hilarious.

Speaker 1: Dude.

This, this, this whole
ecosystem is based on a bunch of

Apple users Like you think of.

Like the terminology that we
use is like airdrop and then

like even with the space, like
the space or spaces like it

there's, there's so many
different.

Yeah, it's interesting.

I know there was like one more.

It's like it's.

I'm an airhead right now, but I
want to dive into, you know,

because you meant, like you
mentioned your, your collection

drive, so like that to me is
like super unique, super

different.

Like I haven't really seen
anything like that on chain or

from artists, like, so tell me,
like I'm going to dive into a

little bit of that project.

Like what was like the
inspiration behind that?

How many pieces are there?

Like how did you, how'd you
even come up with this concept?

Speaker 2: A great question.

Thank you so much.

This is going to send me on
like a long rant again.

I hope you don't mind.

Speaker 1: But I'm going to
connect everything I've ever

learned.

Speaker 2: So where do I begin
here?

Okay, so I studied psychology
and undergrad, okay, and one of

my favorite classes and subjects
to this day is evolutionary

psychology.

So the thing to know about
evolutionary psychology is that

we spent tens of thousands of
years evolving for an

environment that we don't live
in any, and that environment was

extremely consistent for those
tens of thousands of years, and

evolution happens over those
scales.

It does not happen in the age
of technology that we've lifted.

Speaker 1: We have not evolved
since we were in hunter gatherer

communities.

Speaker 2: Truly, we haven't.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: The only way we have
evolved is as we've invented

technologies that have evolved
exponentially, and that's a

whole other conversation.

But we optimized for certain
behaviors that were, you know,

that let us survive in these
environments.

And we kind of came down out of
the trees and we wandered the

savanna and what we had to do to
succeed was we had to have

community, we had to be able to
identify and recognize patterns

and we had to kind of be nomadic
and move and follow the

resources and understand the
different things.

And even in our own tribes we
had to have intertribal

rivalries and relationships and
roles in a science storytelling

and humor, and you know cave
paintings and art and face paint

and culture, right yeah, so
we're still hyper tuned to that

frequency.

Now, I'm only bringing this up
because this is why I'm a

photographer, because I have
this innate desire to wander

through my environment, this
innate desire to wander through

my environment to kind of
explore and find the patterns.

It's not about survival for me,
because I have my basic needs

taken care of right, but I'm
acting on this instinct to

collect, like in the same way
that if I was wandering

collecting seashells or stones
to make, you know, flint with or

spears with, I'd have to look
at these landscapes and identify

resources and opportunities,
and my ability to be effective

at that and to find the best,
most cohesive patterns would

literally dictate whether or not
I could pass my genetics down

on to the next generation.

Okay, so, I'm a photographer
because I'm acting on my

evolutionary instincts to
collect things.

I love that Now technology
allows us to connect all these

pieces together so I can connect
my innate desire to collect

with the desire to build
community and to have a tribe

and, to you know, tell stories
around the campfire or putter

spaces right.

So when I'm thinking about how
to make successful NFT

collections, I'm like what are
the best patterns that I'm drawn

to that really speak to me as
an artist?

And so when I was looking at
how to make cohesive, successful

NFT collections, I started
looking back at my work and I

was like, oh my God, I've been
doing, I've been preparing for

this my whole life.

So I started shooting for Drive
, which is all it's 111 vehicles

.

They're all shot, they all
match, they're all one of ones,

they all kind of like fit
Fucking love.

Speaker 1: Yeah, they really fit
together.

Speaker 2: Like you know,
arguably they're like a set.

That's very important for
collections of all types.

Now I realized that I've been
collecting different patterns

throughout my whole life as a
photographer.

Drive was one that I was like,
wait a minute, this one's really

good because I'll never run out
of subjects.

I already have, you know, a
thousand of them shot over 10

years.

They're all shot on iPhone, so
it's a very accessible project.

I can make a case that Crypto
Arts for everyone Yep, very

important to me, and I basically
was like wow, this is the

perfect thing to drop, because
people already are used to

collecting cars, Cars are
already collectible and they all

match and there's, you know,
they all fit this umbrella

pattern, but they all have
enough uniqueness and

individuality that people can
project their identity onto them

, and so that was really really
important to me.

Now I decided to take it one
step further, because you know I

can use this technology as an
incentive tool, like I said

earlier, and so you know, I
decided to hold 20 of my

favorite cars back in my garage,
right my full wallet, and I was

like the only way you can win
these NFTs is you have to hold a

drive car, and I designated
these ones as trophies.

They have their own trait on
chain and in order to unlock a

trophy you have to somehow win
it off me in a metaphorical race

.

Now, races have ranged from
anything from a raffle at its

simplest to photo contests and
derivative contests.

Who can make the best
derivative of their car?

Who can take the best photo in
the style of drive?

Our last race, race five, we
had a hundred entries from all

over the planet of people going
out in their city engaging in

their creativity in this like
proof of work creative system

that I'm building and submitting
, you know, to the chain of the

race.

And then I just got to go
through and, like, I built this

whole collage and the whole
community is looking at each

other's and engaging with each
other and meeting each other

through this thing.

So I was able to use my project
to create an FT's that

Incentivize creative behaviors
in my communities and I think

that's pretty cool.

I think that's a cool way to
use this technology.

And you know, the floor for the
for the cheapest drive car you

can get is 5e, so that's a big
incentive to get a trophy which

is one of the rarest in the
collection, right?

So we can incentivize all sorts
of behavior like what if I did?

Hey, I'm going to airdrop One
of these trophies.

Like today's race is who can
donate the most to a charitable

cause, with receipts, you know
who can commit, right?

So someone's like well, I'll
donate $10,000 to Jose Andreas,

to, you know, feed refugees in
Ukraine.

I could be like you know what?

That's great.

If you can prove the
transaction that you, that you

did, that I will airdrop you
this, this rare NFT, and there's

no limit, once you have the
incentive set and it's built and

it's part of this project that
is already already has enough

accolades that it's a culturally
significant movement.

Then those incentives stay high
enough that you can really do

things that will change the
world.

And you know, moving forward, I
will continue to use these

mechanics to do as much as I can
to change the narrative for

artists and for people who need
a little bit of extra help in

this world.

Speaker 1: That's just.

I mean dude, like unpacking
that entire, that entire site,

dude, the first and foremost,
thank you, I mean.

But like it's funny to like why
it's not funny, but it's really

cool to see A little nuances in
the cultural ties that you,

that you put together like you
know, like Even back from like a

little bit earlier, where
you're like you know people can

claim drive and you know they
already have the gas in their

car, little things like that.

Or you know that.

Or you know like, when people
go out, like the incentive

structures, like proof of work,
like actually going out, like do

that?

The little subtleties of, of,
of, of blockchain culture.

You know what I mean.

So I love how you've tied like
just about every single one of

those together and like a
meaningful way, and that little

things like that make the
biggest difference, and I think

people often overlook that.

Something I wanted to highlight
.

As well as that, you know a lot
of when people look at some of

these mechanisms, people tend to
only.

You know, we're very much a
headline culture.

You know, even myself I'm
guilty of it from time to time

where it's like we're only read
what's in the headlines.

We want to actually your own
research.

We don't.

We want to actually like like,
figure out the story for

ourselves, but a lot of people
will only look at the negative

ways in which these mechanics
can be used.

And it's like it goes to show
that there's two.

There's two.

There's two conversations here.

There's one Is that the within
the Web 3 community.

I'm going to start with outside
number one, outside of the Web

3 community.

That it's not.

It's not the technology that's
bad.

It's, it's bad actors, just
like it's always been.

Scams weren't invented by
blockchain.

Scams weren't invented by NFTs.

That that that's been happening
years and years before this

technology's ever existed.

People are the problem right.

Speaker 2: So you block chains
don't rug people, block chains,

don't rug people, people, rug
people.

Speaker 1: Threat it, that you
know.

But also there's an interesting
narrative in the web, within

the Web 3 community, that like,
without any effort on humans

part on humans part that this
technology is just going to

change the world for the better
and it's just like this, like

it's just going to poof and
happen and people aren't going

to stop being people.

Speaker 2: You know what I mean
yeah, like a hammer is a hammer

right.

Like hammer is you can either
build a house or you can fill

somebody.

Right, it's right.

Technology is neutral mostly,
unless there's some human bias

built into it, and there often
is.

Exactly but, but yeah, I mean,
look like this.

One of the my favorite things
is when people like who hate

NFTs or hate crypto.

They're like look at all the
scams and look at all this and

blah, blah, blah, money
laundering and blah blah.

I'm like like, yeah, if you
like, put a pie chart next to

how much of this happens in fiat
versus how much of this happens

in crypto.

Speaker 1: It's not even close.

Speaker 2: Fiat is way worse,
you know, let alone funding some

of the most biggest atrocities
in war crimes in human history.

So I don't even I don't like
the false equivalencies.

I don't even think it's worth
engaging in bad faith

conversations like that.

These aren't people who want to
learn there, they just want to

fight and they want to argue and
some people are good at that.

Some people love that Barbie of
lawyers.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right,
you know, and but I also think

it's good that, like, especially
as we're, we're I still think

that we're like hate to like run
on the meme of like how early

we are, but I always make the
correlation to when the

Macintosh was first created or
the first desktop PC, mac, like

their grand vision and they're
like super like this is what's

going to do, is going to store
your recipes in your computer.

Speaker 2: So it's a classic
story and it's true.

I love that.

Yeah, like we're not building
this culture so that we can send

pictures and monkeys back to
our country.

Speaker 1: And I don't think
people understand like that's

the hardest thing to educate
people on.

Speaker 2: We're building a
world of digital objects.

We're building a digital
marketplace that will, I think,

someday exceed yeah, the are
real objects because it's

there's an infinite amount of
space.

Now, what's interesting about
this is like people get so stuck

in the technology that they're
using right now.

You know, I have this iPhone
right here, right, if I had

shown shown myself this 10 years
ago, I'd be like you're lying,

it's not going to come right.

It shoots 4k video at 120
frames a second.

It's insane.

It does facial recognition.

It can automatically translate
foreign text into English in

front of my eyes.

Right, insane.

It's going to look like a
newspaper looks to us in five

years.

And the reason I'm bringing
this up is because I really

don't.

When I say the word metaverse,
I mean any digital layer, any

digital social fabric that we're
, that we engage in, so like a.

Well, instant messenger was
part of the metaverse.

Tumblr was part of the cultural
metaverse text messaging, text

groups, memes, gifts that's the
metaverse.

It's not us all running around
in in Roblox, okay.

Speaker 1: That's part of the
two, but that's not.

Speaker 2: It's like we don't
need like the other side lands

to.

We're all going to live in
there and be like these cartoon

apes.

That's not at all what's cool
or important about watching

technology.

What is important and cool is
that we're like we're building

for a world where there's an
augmented reality all around us.

So like if I collect a rough
Grisetti sculpture right one of

my favorite artists in the world
If I collect one of his

sculptures, I'm collecting it
for a world in which somebody

walks into my house and there's
a rotating hologram that they

can interact with.

I mean, this is absolutely a few
years away and you know apples

working on AR glasses, it'll
eventually be contact lenses and

then it'll eventually be
nothing.

It'll be some sort of nerling
thing.

It's gonna.

You know that might take a
while, but it's coming.

And you know, I'm building for
the world where we could be

walking through Central Park and
I could be like, oh, have you

seen this photograph I collected
?

I don't know I haven't seen it
yet and I'm like, okay, well,

look up there and I can.

I can literally just point to
the sky and we can look at the

photograph 50 feet across
because we're logged into the

same Yep, and I'm actually
working on a science fiction

book about this where I'm kind
of writing, imagining this world

and writing this like noir
mystery, about like these

hackers that can move through
all the different overlays and

like solve all these mysteries
based on the augmented reality

that they're exploring, and I
think that on the science

fiction become science fact, and
I really do think that that's

the world we're moving towards.

So I encourage people not to be
short sighted and be like oh

well, what?

So then I own a piece of art,
it's on my phone.

It's like, no, you own a piece
of art so that you collected

like a Picasso level artist,
like at the very beginning of

their career.

And then when we're all at
dinner and the metaverse in 20

years and by metaverse I mean
like still reality, but like

this overlay, thank you that I
can be like oh, you know, I have

that fueocious piece from the
Christie's show and you know

that'll be as culturally
significant, if not more, than

the art that came before it.

I mean, the last thing I'll say
about all this is every artist

that we love that is like the
priceless, oh my god, like they

got, you know, the person to
look up to, or the you know

whatever.

They excelled at two things they
use the, the most advanced

technology available to them at
the time, and they excelled at

mastering the distribution, or
some information of their time.

So Leonardo da Vinci excelled
at networking in the courts of

Italy.

He, you know, of course he was,
he's one of those brilliant

people to ever have lived.

That's a fact, right, but he
was able to, first of all, use

the absolute cutting edge
technology of his time and

invent.

The absolute cutting edge
technology was.

He was also good at networking
and he used the networks that he

had, which were, you know, much
slower networks than the ones

we have today, but he was able
to Rise to fame, you know, in

significance, in a way that we
still worship him today.

And if you move through every
era of art, I mean, you know

people laughed at Picasso.

You know people laughed at
Warhol.

You know Warhol's technology
was so, so, screening and he was

able to be like, oh, I can mass
produce, you know, and create

this new genre, basically called
pop art.

But he was just using the
technology, technology of his

time, and he was, he was able to
dominate the social network of

his day in order to get his
aesthetic out, his memes out

into the world, in a way that he
became the icon that we look at

today.

Speaker 1: And the artist is
just sell for like 18 million

dollars or something like that
yeah, yeah, no, it's all for two

, almost 200 million.

Speaker 2: Oh shit, I'm way off
yeah, so for two hundred million

dollars.

So you know All the people that
are that hate this technology.

They were the people that hated
social media that told me I was

being an idiot, for you know,
playing with Instagram.

They're the people that you
know.

If they were alive when Warhol
was alive, they would have

laughed them out of time.

And you don't get ahead by
being late.

You get ahead by being early
and being right and creating the

reality that you want to be in,
and that's what we're doing

right here today and being early
is a lonely journey, you know.

Speaker 1: It's like just to
touch on that.

It's like I think that's part
of the reason why this is

incredible is that you know,
when it comes to like

traditional lives, you know,
being early is not something

that is for the I mean not, it's
not for everybody, you know,

and so, but I think that's also
what makes it so special is that

there's something here, and
that's what I always tell people

is that there's something here.

If scammers weren't here or
scammers, if this wasn't

valuable, scammers wouldn't be
here.

It's not the scams, like scams
are here because there is

something real here.

Speaker 2: Because people are
first movers.

If this wasn't disruptive,
people wouldn't hate it.

Exactly.

That's really key too.

Is that the more people just
hate something without an actual

basis and a real criticism or a
real reality of why it's

harmful, it's bad?

Yep, it's because people were
programmed again back to our

environment of evolution, were
programmed to resist change, and

the bigger the change, the more
people hate it, because the

more of that bucket of
statistical hatred you're

dipping into.

So you know, when I saw how
many people, and especially

artists, just were like hating
NFTs, I was like, oh, this is

the next big thing.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember when I first came in
and I you know I want to touch

on one other thing after this
when I first came in, it was

during the Beeple sale and I
remember it was on the Clubhouse

show called the Good Time Show
with Suram, and I remember it

wasn't what you after saying
that story about disruption or

that point about disruptions
that there was no anger towards

it.

It was more of curiosity of
like, how did someone buy an

image for $69 million?

It was like, how is this, how
is this even possible?

It was more curiosity versus
anger, and I remember not being

able to sleep that night and I
couldn't really understand why I

was feeling the way I was.

You know, I think it was my a
lot of to what you were talking

about being early, or what we
were talking about being early a

little bit, a little bit ago
with Instagram is that I felt

like I missed the boat and I
think it was like the end of my

cope of like cool, this isn't,
I'm not, I'm not late.

It was like a.

I felt the same way I did on
that night, that I did when I

that I did when I first saw
Steve Jobs pull out the iPhone

For the first time out of his
pocket.

I remember that keynote.

Like it was yesterday, like
that is one of the most

influential moments of my entire
life and that was like a

capture of like that 13 year old
little kid that just like

unleashed a shitload of energy,
like realizing he was in the

right spot at the right time.

It was insane.

Now, something you brought up,
though, is a is a narrative like

is really what I view as a
metaverse.

Like I don't I don't subscribe
to this like ready player, one

narrative that a lot of people
seem to really enjoy.

I think it's got a place.

I don't think it's the dominant
reality, but I'm I've always

been a nerd for AR.

I actually interviewed Jeremy
Cowart, like two episodes ago

and, like dude, his his work is
just absolutely insane and it's

more focused on AI versus making
.

Like earth is still dope.

Like we still need earth.

Earth is still really cool.

Like let's just make earth
cooler, you know that's, that's

my thing.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely
agree with you.

And if I would look, if I had a
billion dollars and I could

invest in some companies, then
I'll be AR companies.

Yep, yep, I have an Oculus, I'm
playing around, it's cool.

But it's cool, yeah, after 30
minutes I'm like I'm done with

this weird out of body
experience.

What I'm extremely bullish on
is we already we already live in

a world of AR.

It's just we have to look
through our phones.

It's like your phone is a tiny
window into a world that's

waiting around the corner in the
future.

So, like right now, it's like,
oh, we can see it here.

Like, did you see the AR
experiences at the Gagosian

Takeshi Clone X?

Speaker 1: party.

So I only just heard about that
just from Zade's timeline.

I didn't get to see a whole lot
of that.

Speaker 2: So if you go to I
forgot who posted it, like look

at on Twitter or something, but
it's so astounding and it's all

people's phones screen
recordings, right, because you

can't actually see it in front
of you unless you're looking

through your phone.

But just imagine the world
where you walk in and that

stuff's just happening right,
and that's so close, like we're

so much closer to that than
people think.

Yep, and yeah, there will be
full VR experiences as well.

I think there'll be.

You know there's an important
role for immersiveness within

video games, within movies and
film.

Certain communities and games
will really thrive with that.

But for the art and you know,
community stuff, it's all going

to be AR.

I mean, you know, if I could go
to my favorite restaurant and

just chill and I could play
holographic chess with my friend

, like that's a good night right
there.

So it's like this is very.

If I could, like go to the bar
and you know there's just some

protocol or some program that
they have running that I can

kind of hook into with my AR.

I can look at the menu and it
has like all these details and

the chef could be like you know,
literally like a hologram of

the chef, like being like this
is this dish, this is this blah,

blah, blah.

Here's the ingredients.

I'm literally making shit up as
I go, but like you know what,

if the beer taps all had certain
you know animations, you know

brewing process, was like
playing out in front of you and

swirling around your cup.

Like this stuff is like so
close to happening and I just

hope I'm around long enough to
witness it all.

I don't know, I just want to
keep seeing the evolution of

technology for as long as I can.

Speaker 1: That's exactly where
I'm at and I think I typically I

typically estimate it's like
interesting.

I'm in this spot where I'm
starting to trust my instinct a

little bit more, but I'm like
I'm always really reserved about

, reserved about my optimism
about where we're going to be

Almost, so like it's like I hope
we like get farther than I

think we're going to be.

So I'm just like pleasantly
surprised, like I just like over

, like I under promise and like
it's almost like I under promise

myself so I could the world can
over deliver to me.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: I think that's smart
and I think that's going to

happen no matter what you do,
because technology moves

exponentially and our mind, the
ability of our minds to think

exponentially, is very limited.

We think very, very in a linear
way Because again back to our

environment of evolution, we
didn't, we didn't experience

change at that rate.

So, like in the same way, I
couldn't imagine what I could do

with my iPhone now 10 years ago
.

We won't recognize the world we
live in in 10 years and you'll

think in 10 years I'd be like I
can't believe, like how much

further it was than even my
wildest prediction.

So I think, that, no matter what
you're never going to, you're

never going to overestimate
technology, unless something

catastrophic happens, I want to
throw.

Speaker 1: I want to throw some
of your way, though you know,

because you're like.

You know, when we talked about
the drive story, you were

talking about a lot of the
evolutionary psychology.

Do you ever think that you know
?

Because right now a lot of our
basic needs are taken care of,

like in we're in this world
where we don't have to think

about a lot of the things that
our ancestors felt like quite a

long time ago.

But I am noticing something that
the people that are more of the

hunter gather mindset are
what's thriving in almost like

this new age of technology, and
a lot of people that are like in

my parents generation are like
really, even if they're not my

parents age, but they have,
they've adopted that mindset of

kind of just like this basic
needs are taking care of for me.

I don't need to like really do
a whole lot of research.

I don't really need to do a
whole lot of this.

They're really struggling to
adopt this.

Do you think that there's a
point where we almost like go

through a cycle where, like
hunter gather, it's like where

we start tapping into some of
that like, just into some of

that, just like raw, like human?

Speaker 2: I think what's
happening now and the reason

that people are so excited about
Web 3 and NFTs in general is

that it feels like home.

It feels closer to the way that
we're supposed to be

interacting with each other on a
social fabric.

And you know, I'll tell you one
thing that doesn't feel natural

to me is to go into an office
every day, see the same people,

we do the same thing, and be a
cog and a giant corporate

machine.

It feels very foreign to me and
I'm not surprised that.

From the evolutionary
psychology standpoint, I think

we should be in smaller
communities and these kind of

interacting and trading value
with our own kind of smaller

currencies like NFTs or like
community currency, so like my

little community can be much
healthier if it's like me and

all the people that believe in
me and all the people that I

believe in.

And that's really the egos of
all ships too.

It's like, listen, if I thrive,
I'm taking you guys with me.

That's what all ships is.

It's like I only want to
platform if I can point it at

other people.

And you know, I really think
that from especially for the

artists.

Artists are constantly square
pegs and round holes.

There's just no like we're
always compromising to survive,

right, and this is a way where
artists can kind of get their

communities together and be like
hey, if you all just give me

like a little bit of crypto, I
don't have to go do the other

shit and I can push my ideas
like how was in percent?

Further.

Because I'm freed up mentally,
I'm freed up physically, I'm

freed up geologically.

I'm freed up in every or
geographically, not geologically

.

Speaker 1: I know what she meant
yeah.

Speaker 2: Like I'm untethered
from the responsibilities that I

was compromising in order to
make my art with.

So I really think we're
actually moving back towards a

healthier way for artists to
exist within social ecosystems,

but it's up to us.

It's up to us to say this stuff
and to build that future

because, again, technology is
neutral.

People like Facebook entering
NFTs and Web3, like I'm sure

they have some noble intentions,
but they also have a lot of

nefarious intentions in terms of
, like, capturing as much

capital out of these ecosystems
as humanly possible, because

their entire ecosystem is based
on a very different ethos, which

is based on attention at all
costs, because they're an ads

company.

I'm not an ads company anymore,
like.

Speaker 1: I was in Web2,.

Speaker 2: I was selling ads on
my Instagram account, but I'm

now a community company, and now
me accepting ads is

compromising my ability to build
community because they're like

wait, why do you work with this
person?

So I just think we need to
guide the space in a way that

pushes us ever closer towards
the ethos of blockchain and

decentralization, which is to be
self-sopern.

Speaker 1: It is man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and to own your
time and not have to answer to

calls that you would rather not
heed.

Speaker 1: That's right.

And last topic I wanna dig into
a little bit here, man.

So you know, like I'm a big
proponent of everyone's got a

spot here, like everyone, this
is more of an and culture versus

an or, and that's what I've
been preaching, that's what a

lot of my content's been
centered around.

Is that let me see the whole
shirt?

That's right.

Yes, so everyone also includes
brands, right?

So when it comes to brands in
web three, what's your current

take on that?

What do you think, like the
right way to come into this is,

you know, like when it comes to
like brands participating in

this space.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So I, for one, welcome all the
brands.

I think everybody should be
doing this.

I think it's that you gotta
respect the system we built and

you have to respect the ethics
we built and you can't come in

with your old model of
maximizing capital at any cost.

I think you have to come in and
play on our by our rules, on.

It's our turn and you know it's
up to the artists to resist the

temptation to take that quick
paycheck and compromise the

integrity of the whole system.

And I think we're gonna see a
lot of artists fail to do that.

And you know the brands will
constantly make take ground from

us, and it's up to us to defend
what ground we have and what

ground we've gained back Like
we've.

We've personally gained a
tremendous amount of leverage by

using this technology and you
know I went from making 5% of

the total budget to making 95%
of the total budget for these

projects, right, and I'm down to
work with a brand, as long as

you know, whatever the
arrangement is and the

advantages, the networks that
we're both bringing to the table

, we can we can fluctuate on
what that split is, but you know

it better be over 50% for the
artists, as always Yup, because

they're coming and their brands
need in this, in these early

days and in these situations.

It's the brands that need the
artists because they're

completely illiterate in this
space and we are very, very

deeply literate and in
everything that we've done so

far.

So just come with humility and
come with openness to try new

things.

Come with an understanding that
you can rewrite some of the

programming that has been
instilled in you as a, as a

corporate entity.

And, yeah, there's space for
everyone and there's room for

all of us to win.

Let's make it a many sums game
and not this kind of cutthroat

competition Like what's the
budget, what's your rate stuff

that we're all used to and what
do I do.

Speaker 1: Love that man.

That's been, that's been.

My observation is that it's not
that anyone's excluded here,

it's just that the it's that the
paradigm shift is that

creatives, which you know until
I came in here.

I think that's part of the
reason why I really enjoy

interviewing a lot of individual
artists and photographers.

And well, I mean, I didn't
consider photography and art

before I came here.

I'll be honest with you and I
think that's like why, like it's

not that I did was against it.

I just didn't see it as such
until I got to hear the stories.

But what I've noticed since
I've come in here and started

interviewing people is that,
like everything that we interact

with, this microphone was
designed by someone.

It had sketches, it had
decisions, but behind it this

you know just the stand.

You know why these little
things are here.

Because, every made object is
made by artists and creatives.

So it's like why is there?

That was a question about
halfway through the space.

It's like why the fuck is like,
why are these people not

holding all the power?

Why is this not, you know, in
their hands?

Why is this not like, why are
court again to really to the

point that you just made.

So it was interesting.

It was about halfway through
the space, like when I was about

halfway through my time here,
at least to this point, that's

when I had that epiphany is like
holy shit, man.

Like this is a power shift for
the people who actually are

creating everything.

Speaker 2: And this is really my
goal in my life.

My life goal is to show that
it's possible to thrive in a

creative life because, you know,
society didn't show me that

when I was growing up.

I was like I want to be a
photographer I was, you know,

started when I was like nine
years old.

I was at summer camp, in the
dark room I was like I love this

, I want to do this forever and
everyone's like this is a hobby

Right.

Speaker 1: What do you really
want?

Speaker 2: to do.

And then when I finally, like
you know, I so I said I didn't

study art, I studied psychology,
which I'm actually very

grateful for.

But I moved to New York City I
moved to New York City and I

started meeting artists and then
I worked in some.

I worked at Andy Lee Butts'
studio as a retoucher.

I was like, oh my God,
everything that we're looking at

is made by an artist.

It's one of the most important
and largest industries in the

whole entire world and the
definition of art is sweeping.

It's everything, everything
creative, everything that has

some sort of you know, touch or
soul, and it is just.

It's astounding how important
that is for a society.

And if you're a kid out there
listening, take the leap.

It's a good life to live If you
can, if you can really stick

through the journey.

Speaker 1: Love it, dude, dave,
it's been, it's been a, it's

been a blast.

I think this went.

I didn't know what we were
going to talk about, but this

went exact.

I feel the way I feel now is
exactly how I was anticipating.

I'd feel by the end of this man
, so this has been a treat man.

Speaker 2: Can I?

Can I say a few things.

Speaker 1: Go for that.

Speaker 2: Just like where
people can find me.

Speaker 1: That was the last
question.

Speaker 2: Oh, perfect, I'm
jumping the gun.

So, the first thing I'd love
people to look at is actually

not me, it's all ships, it's my
site, but it's my community.

I want to put the highlight on
that.

So, allshipsco, you can join us
there Please.

Through that website, you can
find our podcast, you can find

our Discord, and this summer is
going to be a huge wrap up for

the entire community.

We'd love you to get involved
early.

There's advantages to being
involved early and I'll I'll do

that.

So, allshipsco, you can follow
us on Twitter at allships Me

personally, you can just Google
my name, which is Dave Krugman

K-R-U-G-M-A-N.

But yeah, I'm mostly on Twitter
.

You can find me on Instagram at
Dave Krugman, and then my link

tree is just linktreecom slash
Dave Krugman, which has

everything there, and yeah, I'm
just thrilled.

I'm really excited about what's
happening right now.

I'm not long-term fearful about
teas at all.

I hope everyone out there is
doing okay during this tough

week.

But I'm thrilled, I'm excited.

I think we're building the
future of culture, and it's just

the start, as they say.

So thank you so much for having
me.

This has been an absolute joy,
and I'm glad that Serendipity

brought us together in such a
beautiful setting, and I hope to

see you when I return to Austin
on June 4, Coin Desk Consensus

Festival.

Speaker 1: Let it do, dave.

Again, man, thanks, thanks for
thanks for all the banter,

thanks for the insight and
thanks for your I mean, I hope

people got a lot from this man.

Thank you for listening to the
Shiller Vaulted Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

As we close out today's episode
, don't forget to subscribe to

our podcast on your favorite
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.

Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember, if

you're looking for it art is
everywhere and it's up to us to

appreciate and explore the
emotions it brings to our lives.

Until next time, this is Boone
signing off.