Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the Shuler

Curated Podcast.

In this episode, we sit down
with Chewie Stull.

Chewie is a 3D artist using
Blender to create artworks

around his personal life and
past traumas.

In this episode, we dive into
the value of time constraints

when making art, the story of
his trauma being the gateway to

the art we see today, the future
of mixed reality and so much

more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now.

It's time to grab some coffee
and dive into this conversation

with Chewie Cool.

Speaker 2: GM Chewie how are you
, sir GM?

I'm good, Good man.

Good, I know you're about in
Pacific time.

Where abouts are you at in the
States?

Just curious.

Speaker 3: In Washington state.

I grew up here, spent my whole
life here, Got it.

I grew up a little north of
Seattle in a small town and then

moved up towards near the
Canada border for college.

I started school for sociology
because I didn't really know

what I wanted to do.

Then I found out about the Fine
Arts program.

I pursued that and then ended
up dropping out a quarter before

I got my degree because I
wanted to just do it on my own

terms.

My parents made fun of me
People make fun of me for

dropping out so close to getting
my degree, but I don't know.

It felt right.

I felt like I needed to start
my own thing immediately.

Speaker 2: Oh dude, I mean, wow,
I love that you got to open

with that.

I'm not a semester away I think
about three semesters from

finishing my associates.

I just like.

There was a college professor
that it was the last college

course I ever took.

He essentially just taught us
about.

I mean, he was a serial
entrepreneur.

It was one of those really
light college courses where it's

just like, hey, here's how to
take notes and research.

It wasn't like a super
specialized class.

He essentially broke down.

What exactly is happening right
now with technology, kind of

separating wage gaps, people who
are not really with it.

The middle class is essentially
disappearing or like it will in

time.

I was like, oh fuck.

It was like, oh yeah, I'm done
with this.

That's actually what motivated
me to start my own thing.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2: I feel you.

No, I'd done a little bit of
looking on your website.

I know you were in Washington,
but no, that's where you were

born and raised as well.

That's really cool.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know
what it is about Washington

State in particular, because
I've traveled a decent amount.

It's not like I'm underexposed
to what is out there, but

there's something that just
feels so homey about Washington

State.

I don't know if I can see
myself living in anywhere else.

There's just something so
grounding about the.

I mean, we have everything here
.

We have beaches, we have
forests, we have mountains.

I'm not missing anything.

Speaker 2: Dude, that's the one
thing.

I know Oregon has that, but I
wasn't sure if Washington State

had that.

I know Oregon's kind of like
the main place where it's like,

yeah, they have everything.

That's really cool.

Let me ask the only thing.

So this goes to show how little
of an understanding I have of

Washington State, but I know of
the Gorge, like the concert

venue.

Have you ever gone and seen any
shows there?

Speaker 3: Yes, I've seen.

I went to an EDM festival at
the Gorge once and then I've

been through that area, but I've
only stayed there one time.

Speaker 2: Gotcha.

Yeah, I mean I've looked up a
few different shows there and as

much of a I love Red Rocks
that's like the second rated

venue behind the Gorge.

But yeah, I've seen a few shows
happen there.

Some of them are like I'm not
sure how in tune you are with

the disco biscuits or jam bands,
but I've seen them play there,

seen Pearl Jam, or I've watched
your witness Pearl Jam play

there as well, like in the mud
and lightning, storms and the

rain and like it's a wild Vinnie
man.

Yeah, I'm based on Austin,
texas, so we have like the

opposite of a lot of beauty that
you guys have here.

Speaker 3: That's funny, I don't
know.

There's something about Texas.

There was like a year of my
life where I was convinced I was

going to live in Texas and I
have no idea where that thought

even came from.

Like I just remember waking up
one day and be like I think I'm

going to live in Texas, and I
was like I don't have no idea

why I'm thinking this.

Speaker 2: It's.

I mean like don't, like I've
lived here almost my whole life,

like I had a stint where I
lived in Colorado for two years,

you know, but I, I keep saying
I'd love to move out, but I just

don't.

I have such deep roots here,
whether it's family or I have

like a.

I have a deeply rooted IRL
community here.

You know.

Obviously family is like three
or three or four hours away, so

it's like it's.

You know, it's hard for me to
pick up and go and like my job,

what I'm doing, you know,
doesn't really require me to be

anywhere.

So it's like, well, it's
actually not that bad, it's just

it's really hot and I'm not,
I'm a very hot Like I just I

have to have things super cold
and so it's just yeah, it's not.

I just don't do a lot outside,
you know.

That's just the reality.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I get that.

That's one of the reasons I
love Washington because it's

very.

It's rarely ever above 70
degrees and, like my, I make my

art in a pretty small room so
like even when it's 70 degrees,

like I'm my computer's
overheating my room.

So if I were to live in a place
where it's like 100 degrees, it

would just be miserable for me.

Speaker 2: Oh dude, yeah, you
sound like you have a similar

setup, which I'm very curious of
your PC setup If it's

overheating the room.

Is it like a gaming rig or is
it like just a?

Is it a Mac Like what do you?

What are you kind of working
with?

Speaker 3: It's a custom gaming
rig.

That's why I originally got it.

I got it to play games and then
, like a year after I got it was

when I picked up 3D.

I was following like fuck,
render a for you, jason.

Like, like Catherine, and I
would like sit in their live

streams on Twitch, and I don't
remember what day it started,

but there was just a day where
I'm just like I'm going to pick,

I'm going to pick up 3D, I'm
going to learn it.

So I watched like a million
YouTube videos and like sort of

ask them some questions about
their process just to get a

better understanding of it.

But, like, that core group of
people definitely inspired me to

start making 3D art.

Speaker 2: That's incredible,
man, I mean.

Yeah, ironically enough, I
started in this industry through

video games, you know,
streaming on Twitch, so it's

really cool that, like you, yeah
, it's really cool that you

found that, and I think it's
yeah, fuck, redner's been I mean

, talk about one of the OG's,
you know and watching their

Twitch streams.

Like that's such a, that feels
like such an ancient time ago,

right, yeah.

Speaker 3: Well, another thing
with this community too, I feel

like a lot of people converted
from the gaming community, like

a lot of people that I connected
with early on on, like art,

twitter, before even NFTs were
being considered.

For me Was just like a bunch of
people who came over from like

editing, like Call of Duty
Montages, or like making graphic

design things for people's
YouTube pages, like it was.

It was interesting that we
naturally gravitated towards

each other without knowing.

That's why we did it.

Speaker 2: Dude, yeah, I
couldn't agree.

You know what's really wild,
though, and we can go on the

stand and or not, but it's.

It's interesting that, like you
know, gaming was the first

thing that I saw that clicked
for me when it came to NFTs.

Oh my God, this makes sense,
like and it wasn't like all the

Ponziomics and all the all the
other shit like that.

It's like simply the fact that,
like I had spent so much money

on Valorant skins and Call of
Duty skins yeah Fuck, I just

want to own these, that's.

That's literally the only web
through use case I give two

fucks about in gaming.

I'm sure there's a lot more fun
ones, but I'm just like just

very left curve on that.

It's like, dude, just I want to
own, like the skins I buy.

That's it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I get that.

I've probably even before NFTs
I've probably spent thousands

and thousands of dollars on,
like in game skins, and there's

usually a point in each game
that I'm playing I'm like I

would love to either trade these
with people because, like I

usually pick up games like from
beta so I like have all like the

rare stuff and like that and
there's just like there's a

missing component of being able
to trade that with people, like

there are things that other
people have that I want and

there are things that I have
that other people want.

And like the lack of
accessibility in games like

always bothered me because it's
like they just sit there after a

certain while and like I would
love to trade skins with people,

like that'd be an amazing
feature to have in future games.

Speaker 2: When people do it,
they people do it.

It's just not trustlessly, you
know.

It's like they right, like
people do it in Counter Strike

it's all the time.

It's like as a whole, fucking
like that's a whole side of

Counter Strike, that it's like
its own subculture is like the

skins market, you know, I think
someone we just sold them for

like six or $7 million, like a
few months ago.

I mean it's nuts and it's like
people just do that without a

trust system to like secure an
asset, which just blows my mind.

And it blows my mind that, like
you know, those same people are

like against, like Web3 and
NFTs, and it's like, bro, like

what do we not communicate it?

You know, like what are we like
?

How are we missing this point
here?

It's frustrating.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that reminds me
I think it was 2021.

I remember like there was this
list that went around of, like

NFT artists and like we were
receiving death threats for like

selling our art as NFTs.

And it just blew my mind
because I was like most of these

people complaining are a part
of online communities that buy

in-game items, or like buy
things on the internet and they

own them.

And I was like where is the
disconnect when it comes to art?

Or like someone making a living
off this and like they would

get so heated.

Like it was like it felt like
they were being personally

attacked for someone else
selling their art as an NFT.

And I still think about that to
this day.

Like why is that so outrageous
for people to accept?

Speaker 2: I don't know, man, I
think part of it also is the.

I mean, one thing I just did
not and I still don't like about

the gaming community is the
there's just a lack of

transparency and authenticity,
like in content creation.

You know, in general, like,
especially in the gaming side,

it's like you know it's very
single, it's very hive-minded,

you know it's like there's no,
there's no room for discourse.

There's no, it's a very much a,
it's a cutthroat thing.

And I and one thing that I do
know after, because I kind of

got into the gaming like I was a
very much like an FPS, like

Halo guy, gears of War, call of
Duty, like that was like my

thing.

But I know when kind of like
the free to play games and like

I know when Star Wars, like when
EA really like shot the bed

with Star Wars and like having
like the pay to win kind of

thing.

And that's really where gamers
like got very defensive about

the industry trying to take
advantage and just milk, you

know, the community for
everything that they had.

You see it all the time with
like products like oh, this is a

gaming product?

It's like, is it really though?

Like are you just a gamer on it
because you like want to like

tap into this like billion
dollar ecosystem, and it's

usually the latter.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: I think there's some
merit there.

I think that's part of it, you
know, and I think that also, you

know, in 2021, man, sounds like
you're, like, you were

definitely around then.

It's like the narrative around
gaming was really, you know, I,

you know, sounds like we both
like did our research when it

came to like I know I'd love to
hear your story about how you

found, like this space, but
after this, and it's like but

for the people, for anyone who's
not trying to do any research

and like go down and read like
like 69,000 articles about

blockchain technology and like
and entities like can you really

blame them for like just seeing
board A headlines, you know,

and like people will yeah, and
like put out these pondonomics

that are just going to like
bring it to zero.

I don't know Like.

There's just some good
questions there.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I like
I understand that side of it of

like the like PFP side, like in
sort of the discourse there, but

like, even if, like I had
witnessed other artists give

like anecdotal evidence of like
making a like a career off

living or making a career from
living off NFTs like the money

they made from their art even
even then, like there was such

like a hard wall that the people
were putting up to like

believing that this is an okay
thing for an artist to do,

because they got grouped with
like the board, a headlines and

stuff like that.

Like there was there was such a
heavy resistance to accepting

this idea that, like people
didn't have to be a struggling

artist, no matter what that the
avenue was for them.

And to answer your question
from just earlier, how I found

this space was I had joined our
Twitter, like didn't even know

what NFTs were and I think 2020,
maybe 2019, like joined some

group chats, just like helped
each other share our work.

And then I actually saw FIWO do
a Nifty collection.

I think it was like the new
year.

Yeah, yeah, wow, and that was
that was the first piece I had

bought was.

I can't remember what the
collection name was, but it was

an addition from him on like
January 1st and it just clicked

and there was no.

I didn't even do research at
that time.

I was just like this is where I
feel at home, like there's a.

There was an odd comfort, that
just like kind of wiped over me

of like this is where I'm
supposed to be.

And then that's sort of when I
transitioned to like selling my

art to there, I started with
like prints and stuff.

But as soon as I saw the Nifty
Gateway collection, I was like

this, this is it.

Speaker 2: That's incredible,
man.

How long so curious like just
want to like hop back maybe one

or two steps.

Like how long?

How long had you like been
creating before you found this?

Like, how long were you kind of
just doing this on your own

before you found this place?

Speaker 3: So I mean, I've been
making art since I was like 10.

Like, I started Cinema 4D when
I was like 10 or 11, making like

YouTube graphics yeah,
no-transcript.

And then I did a four-year
phase of photography, probably

until 2018.

And then, right at the start of
the pandemic is when I was

doing every day's because I had
got laid off from my job.

I was working at a casino as a
server oh wow, and even then I

was making every day's.

So I want to say I got through
maybe 200 every day's before I

started selling as NFTs maybe
less, maybe like 100, 150.

But like a solid chunk of time
before I even knew they were the

thing.

And then, once I found them, I
kind of like slowly injected

myself into them.

Speaker 2: That's awesome, man,
I mean it's.

And I got to ask, you know,
because the first time, like

because, just to give you some
context, I had no real

background in art, you know, or
like observing or like enjoying

art, you know, before I came
here.

So you know, naturally my first
exposure was people.

I think a lot of people were,
you know, and so I know like

that's where I first heard the
term every day, because I didn't

even know what the fuck that
meant until I saw that.

So, like I'm curious, so it's
like, is that where you kind of

like, did you know of people
before you're doing that, or is

that just something that you
were kind of doing?

You know like on your own, just
because?

Speaker 3: Definitely I
definitely knew of people and I

would say he was the one who
inspired every day's.

I think another one like Shams
Makaia she was doing every day's

and so, like she was another
one that I was like sitting in

her Twitch streams.

It was sort of like pieces of
all these different artists that

I like pulled together to sort
of get my mindset and every

day's made sense because I was
still learning how to make art.

So I figured if I just did
something every single day, I

would eventually get to a point
where I had developed like my

own tech, techniques and stuff.

So it's not like there was one
artist that inspired me to do a

thing.

It's sort of like bits and
pieces from, like different

communities of the art world.

Speaker 2: That's all, yeah, and
I'm kind of.

I think the hidden question was
like, is this kind of like just

like a thing that a lot of
artists did?

You know, and it sounds like
that you know and it's I'm sure

it's probably goes outside of
the art scene where it's just

like you just do something
literally every day and you get

just are much.

You know, you get exponentially
better every single day, yeah.

Speaker 3: There was an
interview that I can't.

It was either an interview or a
podcast, I don't remember who it

was with, but they, the way
they framed it like, really

resonated with me.

They said, like if you're doing
something you're not used to,

you're not very good at, just
dedicate two minutes a day to it

, and that it takes the pressure
off needing to be perfect and

needing to like create something
amazing.

Because, if you can, if you
start those two minutes, more

than likely you'll keep going
until you like either get

exhausted or do something else.

But the idea of having two
minutes out of your day is much

more reasonable than saying, oh,
I need to spend five hours

making art and like, if you just
sit down for two minutes, I

would naturally just spend hours
doing it.

And then there was another case
study where there were I think

it was at a university that
professor had their art class

into two groups and he gave one
group the assignment of making

one masterpiece and then he gave
the other group the task of

create as much art as you
possibly can, and the group that

made as much art as they could
ended up making for lack of a

better words better art, because
there wasn't a pressure to

create a masterpiece, they just
created.

And like, just by the way the
human mind works, it just came

up with brilliant ideas because
it wasn't feeling restricted and

so I kind of carry that with me
.

Is just like just make things
like you will make good things

eventually, and if you expect to
make a masterpiece, you

probably won't do that.

Speaker 2: I really like that
and you're touching on a topic

that I've been really fascinated
with lately, and it's like the

free, it's almost kind of having
this like creative freedom, but

within constraints, you know,
and it's like idea of parameters

and this idea of pressure, you
know like what is it?

You know like what role does
pressure or parameters or

boundaries play into the
creative process?

Because I think there's
definitely, you know like

there's definitely an art to
collect every day.

It's like if you dedicate to do
this like every single day, you

know like make something like
that, that is a little bit of

pressure to do that, but I think
that it also, even if it, I

guess, is maybe not like the
best that you're able to do,

it's the fact that you're still
able to do something.

I'm sure something cool came
from that, you know exactly yeah

.

Yeah, it's a really fascinating
topic because I think in the

beginning, you know, I was like,
oh, I just need to be super

fucking Zen and, like you know,
like just not have anything,

worry or bother me, or like you
know or like not clear the

schedule because I'm just in my
creative zone.

It's like come on, man, it's
not really.

That's not realistic, like you
got to work.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's
like a balance to it, like some

pressure is good, but if you go
to too much or too little

pressure, it starts to like
hinder your creativity.

And I can't remember who's
artist documentary I was

watching the other day.

There was some surrealist and he
was saying that the way he

makes art is in a way by chance,
like he doesn't know what he's

going to create when he starts.

And that's sort of the same way
with me is like as I'm making a

piece of art, I usually let my
brain have two options and

that's like, for an example,
like a circle or a sphere, in

whatever my instinct tells me to
do, I just pick that one and so

that, and I take that through a
whole bunch of different steps

along an art piece and by the
time I'm done, I had no idea

that was the piece I was going
to make, but my gut and instinct

just told me to make these
decisions and it came out to

something that I loved and it
has a little bit of pressure

because I have to make a
decision, but there's not enough

pressure to like limit
creativity.

My brain just gets to like roam
inside itself and then I choose

between two options that are
presented to me and it's been a

great way to just like approach.

Everything is like whatever my
gut says to do, just do that and

then if I don't like it, I can
change it, but just follow that

initially.

Speaker 2: Man, I love that
you're talking about this

because it's like it's it's
scary as fuck to do that

sometimes, like it's a weird I
don't know why, but it's like a

weird thing to like trust your
gut over your mind, you know, or

the panic, or the chaos, or the
ego like.

For you know, it's like really,
the way I look at that, it's

freeing, it's liberating, but
it's like I mean like just

there's some things where I'm
just like fuck, is this worth it

?

You know, yes, the past
experience starts to creep in.

It's like, well, you fucked up
on this last time.

You know, like I've even
noticed that with trading

decisions, you know, and like
stuff with like the NFT market,

it's like fuck.

You know, like like it was.

It was the last time, like just
a fluke, you know, did I?

Was that really the right thing
?

You know, should I be doing
that again?

Am I going to fuck up and make
the same mistake, or is this

going to be better this time?

You know, so I find that really
cool and I think, on the same

beat, something that you know,
when I was doing something, I've

always like like I've noticed
in your creations or like kind

of like the story behind your
creations is like this moment or

this event that happened that
I've always been very curious

about.

Because I just just to like
linger on this like most people

aren't like super spiritually
tuned unless they have kind of

something that forced them to be
at a certain time in their life

.

You know, like with me, I've
been sober for 10 years and you

know I've had, like I continue
to practice, a spiritual program

, but it's like if my life
didn't depend on it, I probably

wouldn't, you know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, totally.

Speaker 2: So I would love to
kind of like however much you're

comfortable sharing, like I
know, I know you mentioned it

was traumatic, but would love to
kind of know a little bit about

how that, how that event just
like shaped, like who you were,

like, I'm very curious.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was in
2014.

I was on like a vacation with
my family and my best friend and

I did a bunch of parkour back
then.

Like that was sort of the thing
was like parkour and

photography.

So I was, we were in Seaside,
oregon actually it's like at a

roundabout where there's a
statue and my friend and I were

jumping over this railing onto
the sand probably like 20 feet

drop, and like there was a news
team that saw us doing it and

they wanted to do like a report
on us.

So they went to go get their
news team and my friend and I

just kept practicing the jump
and before the news team got

back, I had jumped, clipped my
feet on the railing and fell

face first 20 feet onto like
very hard sand and I mean,

because of the shock, I stood up
and thought I was fine but,

aside from like wind knocking,
like the wind being knocked out

of me, and then I just passed
out and I woke up in a

helicopter being like airlifted
to the hospital and I had

ridiculous like internal
injuries, like my liver exploded

inside my body, my lungs were
collapsing and my body was just

like filling with blood.

So that led me to being in a
coma, which is the event that my

art is basically about.

I was in a coma for nine days
and they had to bring like a

priest in to tell my family like
say goodbye, he's not waking up

.

And then I woke up and like it
was just like a miracle moment,

like there was no explanation,
like all medicine said I wasn't

going to wake up.

And then I woke up, like I have
no explanation for it, I just am

here now when I'm not supposed
to be, and so like that idea is

what all of my art is about is
like it is moments from like my

time stayed in the hospital,
like traumatic experiences and I

don't know what clicked in my
brain, but like I have this

weird access to, like my
subconscious and it just takes

over when I'm making art and I
think it always leads back to

that coma, like whether I want
it to or not, like a piece, I

can't release a piece unless
it's some way attached to that,

and so I've taken that over the
nine years now to sort of use

that to heal.

Like my art is a way to heal for
me from that, and so now I'm at

a place where I can talk about
it freely and not like get upset

or triggered.

And I look back on that time
and I feel in a weird way,

grateful for it, because it gave
me this new tool set and new

outlook on life that I don't
think I would have ever gotten

if that thing didn't happen.

And so I have a weird
relationship where it's like,

yes, it was traumatic, but also
like it has made me who I am

today and I wouldn't want
anything to be different, no

matter like the consequences
that happened because of it.

Speaker 2: Wow dude, that gave
me, wow, yeah, that gave me a

lot of chills because, like I,
again, different circumstances,

but the language that you're
speaking is very similar, the

language that I speak as well,
because there has been so many

times when I look back, like
anytime, I get mad about what

the current like drama is in my
life.

Or, like my life, like my
current drama.

I'm like, dude, you literally
shouldn't be here today, like,

no, exactly, you should have
died so many times, you know

exactly, and it's only by a
miracle that you're still here.

And so I think that's really
what drew me is like there's

definitely that language, both
visual language and also, you

know, in the bio.

It's like I, you know, read it.

But, yeah, I, I've always found
that incredibly fascinating, and

something that you mentioned
that I want to double tap on a

little bit is that you know,
like, whether you want it to or

not, you know, um, yep, like
what's kind of been, um, I guess

really what I want to explore
there is, like what kind of

comes out of those processes?

Like, what do you kind of do
when you don't want it to be

there, like whether you like it
or not?

Like how do you kind of channel
that, or is that?

Does that just make a piece
that you know is different from

the rest?

You know, do you kind of try to
shut it off, like kind of how

does that work?

Speaker 3: So I think there are
times where, like try to

intentionally navigate away from
it and I don't know if it's my

brain or my body or both, but
they both just reject that idea.

Like I instantly become
frustrated and angry at the art

I'm making and like I don't want
that to be the product that I

create.

Like I don't want to make
something that I am mad about

and I wouldn't release that if I
didn't love it.

And so I and that's sort of
where I let the control go away

is like I give myself the option
, like in my creating about the

accident or my creating
something like fun and light,

and I always instinctually
choose the accident.

Like it just is what resonates
with me.

And like there are times where I
want to make happy art.

I want to make like colorful,
bright things, because there are

times in my life where I feel
that way, like it's not like I'm

always depressed and always
like sad.

It's.

Just making art about that
accident is what gives me that

like sense of fulfillment.

Like I feel like I'm playing my
part in this world and if I'm

making, if I were to try and
make a piece that was like happy

or bright, it feels inauthentic
and I don't want to go down

that path of, like, creating
inauthentic art because of the

people who are going to view it.

And so there's this time period
where I was like, well, why

would people only want to look
at sad art?

And it's like, well, that's
what I'm creating.

Like, not everyone's going to
like that, not everyone's going

to like the art I make anyway,
so I might as well make what

means something to me and it's
also a way of documenting that

journey.

And so like, by the time I die,
all of this art will exist and

give people like glimpses of a
documentation of my life.

So it's more instinctual,
because there's just like an

inherent frustration that arises
when I try to navigate away,

and so that signals to me that I
should just stay on this path,

because that's what matters to
me.

Speaker 2: Totally dude, yeah.

And the way I look at this is
that like, first and foremost,

like thanks for, yeah, thanks
for going there.

I love that kind of tangent
that we're on here because

there's been times to relate to
that.

It's like there's been times in
my life where, like, the thing

I'm doing I know is right, but
it just doesn't feel like it

sometimes it's told me a sense,
you know, and I'm like fuck,

doing anything different
wouldn't feel right.

You know, and it's like it's
such a weird pickle to be in man

.

You're like like I'm damned if
I do, I'm damned if I don't, you

know kind of thing.

Exactly, yeah.

Speaker 3: Well, and I think it
adds to, is like there's a

feeling of expectation that can
be frustrating, like when you

feel like you're putting
expectations on yourself to be

or do a certain thing.

It can be very annoying because
it's like, well, what if I

don't want to do that forever?

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, dude,
it's.

Yeah, expectations is a whole
other conversation.

One thing, that's one thing,
though like, as you're talking

about this, like I have some of
your art up not all of it's, you

know, not all of it's sad, you
know.

Like it's right, yeah, and I
find that really like I love

some of it.

What I really get is like just
like I guess what is the word

I'm looking for is primal.

You know it's kind of like man.

This is like this kind of feels
like a lucid dream.

You know it kind of feels like
this is something that you know.

Like, although I've been sober,
I definitely had my fair share

of doing DMT in before, I guess
you know.

So there's a lot of kind of
like that aspect to it where

it's like, wow, you know, this
kind of feels like the thing

that underlies or underpins
human existence, you know the

thing that connects us all
together, like the creation of

self, like I find that so
incredible, it's fascinating.

You know it's like, wow, this
is really intense, you know, and

is this how it was?

This is how it happened.

You know, like, what is the
human soul?

What is the human spirit?

How did we even come to be?

Yeah, those are the types of
things I like, like get.

When I look at your art, you
know it's like yeah, it's a lot

of fun.

Speaker 3: Yeah, there's two
points.

I want to be got that because a
lot like a lot of my so like

after I got discharged from the
hospital and was, like, allowed

to go home, I did a lot of
mushrooms.

Like I had a lot of questions
for the world like why me,

what's going on, and so I spent
a lot of time alone and I spent

a lot of time doing mushrooms
and I don't know how much of

that is now embedded in my art,
but I I failed to believe that

there's not a resemblance
between all of those mushroom

trips in my art.

Like there is a certain level of
like you were saying lucid

dream, like underlying questions
of humanity that just seep into

my art, and a lot of those
resonate with mushroom trips

that I've had.

Like there are a lot of
questions that I asked myself

while I'm making art that remind
me of a lot of times of these

mushroom trips, and I will never
forget that there I've been

like because I don't really talk
about that, because that leads

into, like the organic side.

I like people to like interpret
my art in their own way, but I

have gotten plenty of DMs of
people who have been on mushroom

trips and say that my art has
like resonated with them.

So there's like an underlying,
unspoken language that is

happening with my art and some
people that are viewing it that

just means so much to me, like
they would have never known that

I was like processing this
through mushroom trip, but they

were also processing it through
one, and so it's very

fascinating to me just the way
that people process things and

the circumstances in which they
do it.

Speaker 2: That's an incredible.

You know something very similar
.

I don't know if it was, you
know, I don't know if he was

under the influence of mushrooms
on creating some of these, but

like, very similar to like Jake
Fried.

You know, like, when he's
gotten some similar comments

where, like people just kind of
like it, shit just clicks.

You know like where it's like
oh wow, like it's a very

foundational kind of permanent
communication form.

You know where it just it just
hit totally you know.

And so one question I had,
though is it like you know, so

you did those back then, like do
you still do that now or is it

kind of like?

Was that just kind of like a?

You just had a couple of
questions you needed to answer

and you're like I'm done.

Speaker 3: After that, I would
so like I not anymore, like I

don't do like.

I mean, I smoke a little bit of
weed now, that's about it.

But like I would say, for four
years after my accident was like

not even just a little bit, but
like that was all I did was

like ask those tough questions
of myself and like I mean, I

like I still worked, like I went
to school and I did things, but

like my brain was constantly
trying to get answers for what

happened and eventually that
just became exhausting, like I

was limiting my life by trying
to answer questions that I won't

get the answer to, and I needed
to accept that.

And I think that was the answer
all along was you're not going

to get the answers you want, but
you have to live your life

anyway.

And so I remember there's just
there was no like profound

experience that happened.

I just woke up one day and was
like that's it, like not to say

that I was healed, but I was
like I'm moving on, like it was

just it was a clicking moment of
I woke up, I'm moving on, and

then I just did it like it felt
so simple.

Speaker 2: It wasn't easy, but
it was very simple man like I

can't tell you how many times
I've gotten chills during this

chat because, like it's, it's
the I constantly ask questions

like that of myself.

You know, even especially in the
beginning, it was like you know

why me, you know, it was like a
lot of this, exactly yeah, and

it's like I can either choose to
kill myself trying to ask

answer this question, you know,
like I won't be able to answer,

or I can just like accept that
this is the set of cards I was

dealt with, you know, and it's
like, yeah, this is my hand to

play and how do I want to play
it?

Versus just like trying to like
decipher the meaning of

everything.

And I think I think the
questions to those answers are

not for us to like understand.

And I think that, in my opinion
you know, at least my take is

what makes like the mystery of
life, you know, incredibly

beautiful.

Like it's there's so much
unknown and there's so it's it's

very fragile, it's very finical
, like it's very finicky is not

the word but like it's fickle,
you know, it's very just.

Yeah, there's not much that
holds it together, but it's

somehow held together.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So, yeah.

Speaker 3: I'm curious if you
experienced this to where, like

there are, I would say I mean
like the duration of these like

mental states, I would say, like
like shortens as time goes on.

But I find myself every now and
then like almost going back to

that or like missing that
experience of asking the

questions, like I almost feel
like I'm not trying hard enough,

and then I have to remind
myself like oh no, I'm just

never going to get this answer,
like do you ever find yourself

sort of like slipping back into
that headspace of like trying to

find answers again and then
reminding yourself that that's

not what it's about?

I just came out of one.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: Nice.

Speaker 2: There was like for a
good couple of years.

It was like fuck, you know like
why I went through.

It was a decent period where I
went through that.

So, yeah, the short answer is
yes, but I but I also think that

, in a weird way at least, what
I've like learned since just

being like like I've just
consumed so much art in the past

two years, you know like, and
talked to a lot of people and

it's like the one thing that I
have learned is, I think it's, I

think it's always healthy to go
back and like reexamine this,

but I think every time I do that
, I'm not seeking, I'm just

reexamining, right.

It's like I'm asking the
question and then not paying it

any mind and any attention and
I'm just like moving the fuck

about my life, you know, because
I think I think those questions

are like fun to ask and they're
fun to like pontificate about,

you know like, and just like I
think re like, how is my, how is

my response to this question
changed?

I think it's really where I
look.

I look inward and like, okay,
how am I reacting to this, how I

figured out anything new?

Most of every day is no, but
it's more of like what's my

reaction to the question.

You know how do I respond to it
, I think is really where kind

of how I approach it.

You know when it happens.

Yeah, that's really interesting
.

Yeah, I think there's an
evidence like there's some like

inevitability, I think with
people now that we're kind of

chatting about this is that I
think it's natural to like go

back and ask those questions.

I think it's, I mean, people
who are naturally curious.

You know as well.

It's like, fuck man, there's a
lot to learn and I think that

you know, a lot of technology,
ironically, is built around

solving some of those questions
too, you know.

So, I don't know, we may be
terminally unique and we may

just be part of the human
condition, but yeah, every time

I think I'm terminally unique,
I'm really subtly reminded or

sometimes not so subtly reminded
that I'm not terminally unique.

Yeah, you're not special man
like you are, but you're also

not in the grand scheme of
things.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like
nowadays there's like in this is

like unrelated to anything,
like traumatic or like

uniqueness, but like I see these
means of like childhood

experiences and it's like wow,
like like it's very niche things

like crawling up the stairs as
a child, or like like those

metal railings, like running
your fingers along it, like to

make the sound, like there's all
these like very small moments

that's so many people experience
, but growing up I thought I was

the only one who ever
experienced that and it's weird

because, like, no one taught us
to do those things, like it's

just something that we
gravitated towards.

Like it's very fascinating to
me, like seeing how many

similarities there are across
like universal experiences.

Speaker 2: They're really.

Yeah, you bring up a great
point and, I have to say,

millennial Misery is one of my
favorite Instagram channel.

So, just like, wow, like this
is this, is this?

This is hitting really close.

I'm either getting old as fuck
or this is like.

You know, I don't know what
this is.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I, but I,
but I also think that like on

the same tangent or on the same
through line, is that I think

it's also what's beautiful about
, like what we're doing right

now, like the technology that
we're communicating over right

now, without this like would we
have ever told each other?

This like would we have ever?

Yeah, in a weird way brings a
human connect, like the human

experience closer together than
ever has before, and I find that

just incredibly fascinating.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

It makes me think of like all
the times, like pre technology,

even early technology, of like
how many similarities were going

on notice like there was a lot
of like, a lot of what's the

word?

Tribalism?

Almost of like different groups
, like sort of like being

separate, but there's there's
such an underlying connection

between all of them that it's
like how much of that was

unnoticed or how much of that
was actually just like pure

hatred.

Like westernizing people,
because I mean, even as a kid,

like you form little clicks and
like you don't like certain

people, but like for what reason
?

Like it's not, it's not a good
reason.

Like why is that thing that
happens?

And I want to believe that it's
because of like a lack of

knowledge.

Like we just don't realize how
similar we are to the people

around us and we never really
had either the tools or the

willingness to like get to know
people.

Because I mean, when I was
growing up, I didn't really care

about getting to know other
people because I was trying to

figure out my own self.

And then, when I figured out
who I was and started connecting

with people, it's like oh,
we're way similar than I thought

I was.

Like there's a lot of sameness
in us and I mean that's always

perpetual.

Like even with my best friend
who I've known since I was like

hey, like I'm constantly
learning more ways that were

similar, even though we spent an
entire lifetime together, and

that's not.

It's very interesting yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's
something, man, I mean.

Now let me ask you this like do
you find that you discover more

about yourself through through
trying to learn about others?

Speaker 3: Absolutely yeah, and
I think that's partly why I

started school in sociology was
because people other than me

always fascinated me, and I
think that the key difference

between why I chose sociology
and not psychology was like

psychology is sort of it deals
just with the self for the most

part, and sociology is like two
or more people, and so I was

fascinated by like all the
different groups of people,

whether that was like alcoholics
or that was like blue collar

workers, like all these
different categories of people

and like how they played their
role in society and what their

role meant to themselves.

Like that always fascinated me,
and I always think there's like

an underlying thing, or
multiple things, that we can

learn from people that are not
like us.

So I'm constantly learning
about myself through others and

I think that's like something
that will always stick with me.

Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, I mean
, yeah, I love like sociology

was was the only class, like
when I went to university, like

when I actually went to like
university, that was like the

only class I enjoyed attending.

And I was in school for
kinesiology, like that's what I

originally went for, you know,
and then, but I never went to

any other classes but that one,
you know, that was the only one

that truly fascinated me.

I didn't really know why it
fascinated me, it just seemed

like the instructor was a vibe
and like it seemed like a cool

class to be in.

You know, yeah, yeah, but I
mean, yeah, it's, the

interesting part about this
topic is that, you know, like

the, the role that we play,
identity that we have, you know,

we just see so much.

I guess, like you, it's really
easy to see how the internet has

divided us in a lot of
different ways and technology

has divided us.

But again, you know, there's
this weird common thread where

it's like we get to continuously
discover more.

And, to your, to your point on
learning, you know more about

yourself.

I, the way, the way I talk to
myself when I think things

should be done, my way, is that
like man, dude, like if, the.

If the whole world was the same
as you, this would be a really

boring world, you know?

Yeah, be really boring man.

Like, if everyone was like me,
I think it would be okay, but it

would just be, we'd all be
robots, you know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and like
it's like there was a time where

I thought I wanted people to be
like me and it's like I don't

know why I wanted that.

Like like you were saying
that's it's so boring and it's

so predictable and that's not
what I like about life.

Like I like the chaos, I like
the things I don't know and the

unknown, the unpredictable.

Like those are what give me
life, not the things I know are

going to happen or people that
are just like me.

Like that doesn't add value to
my life.

Speaker 2: No, it doesn't at all
, you know, and we're in a

really weird point where it's
like we're more divided but also

more unified at the same time.

There's this weird duality and
friction.

You know that people are
unwilling to learn from one

another.

You see it on Twitter all the
time, you know, but to your

point though it's, a lot of
makes sense, why NFTs fit for

you, man, or like why the crypto
community fits like there's,

there is nothing predictable
about what we're, what we're

doing here, what we're building
here.

You know it's, it's a wild ride
.

Speaker 3: I don't think that
one yeah, I think one of the

analogies I use a lot for the
like NFT community is like the

zombies mystery box from Call of
Duty.

It's like every day I get to
wake up and I get to roll the

mystery box and sometimes I
might get a ray gun, sometimes I

might get something absolutely
useless Like there's, but like

that's the appeal of it and it's
like it's a little bit like I

guess it's gambling, but it's
more like gambling with

opportunities as opposed to like
my money, Like there's, just

like you never know what doors
are going to open because you

don't know what all the doors
are, and like I mean I use that

analogy across like my whole
life is like it just feels like

a zombies mystery box and I
don't know why that clicks with

me so much, probably because of
my history as a gamer.

But it makes a lot of sense to
me that that's like how I view

my life.

Like there is.

Just every day you get to wake
up and you get to spin the box

and sometimes you get good,
sometimes you get bad and that's

just the way it is.

But that's what's exciting.

Speaker 2: I think so too, man.

I've never heard that before.

You know, like I, it's nice to
hear someone throw out a Call of

Duty analogy, because, you know
, like I, often hear the

RuneScape.

You know analogy.

Yeah yeah, and I just never
vibed with that.

You know, like I know, I know
Deez is a big RuneScape guy.

I know like Bernardo and
Schiller is a big RuneScape guy,

and you know Ben Roy and like
there's, there's a lot of people

, a lot of people that, like I
really like up to that, are

really successful.

I'm like, fuck, I should have
played RuneScape.

You know I don't know.

But I think I like that a little
bit better and I've.

You know what's ironic, man, is
that, like before here, I was

never a game I'm still not a
gambler by nature, you know, but

I think that I think I like
gambling.

When there's a, there's a like
casino, you just automatically

accept that you're going to lose
.

You know, right, literally
lighting money on fire, that's

the whole point.

But with here, it's like you
don't even have to light your

money on fire.

You know you can literally just
participate.

You know, non financially in
certain ways.

Eventually you have to cut your
teeth and do this, because this

is a financial instrument, but
you know, like you don't have it

doesn't have to be the whole
thing, and I find that really

appealing and that definitely
got.

Yeah, it definitely took hold
of me in 2021, when I first came

here.

Speaker 3: Yeah, when I think
another component of that is

like even if even if we label
this community as gambling like

you're the prize you get isn't
just money, like you can get

something that means something
to you.

Like when you're at a casino,
the only thing you can get is

money and like that's cool, but
it's also not.

But in this community you can
get like art pieces, you can get

like digital land, like there's
a whole bunch of things that

can resonate with you and you
actually feel like you have

something that means something
to you, whereas when you're at

the casino, you just get more
money and like that's sometimes

cool, right, right.

Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes, yeah
, very, very good point.

I'm curious to know, as you
like you know it's really it's

been really cool to like look at
number one, all your pieces,

like see all the collectors that
you've had.

Like I'm very curious of, like,
how you approach relationships

when it comes like, or like when
it comes to building

relationships with collectors,
because you know, like you've

had, you've had some pieces that
have sold for really high, you

know, and it's like what's kind
of like the dynamic between that

you know, and I'd love to kind
of hear how that's like evolved

over the years, especially
through a bull market and a bear

market, you know, and kind of
like what's what's changed or

what hasn't changed.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think
it's remained relatively the

same.

Like I mean, for one, I'm
pretty introverted, so like I'm

not the best at like approaching
people, so almost all of my

work is sold to collectors that
have come to me first.

And I always like I think I
work a little bit in reverse to

a lot of artists, like I prefer
the art to be the foundation of

the relationship and then
expanding either a friendship

past that I like the art to be
first, and so usually what will

happen is the art sells and then
I form a connection, and I

think that's changed a little
bit over the years, where now so

I like to like build a
relationship before selling art

because I like to know who it
goes to.

But if someone very like deeply
connects with my work, I want

the art to go to them.

And I also understand that even
if someone deeply connects with

my art, we might not make good
friends, and that's fine.

So I try to take that pressure
off of like every collector

needs to be a friend, because I
don't think that's very

realistic, like it's a nice
ideal to work towards but

there's just no way in reality
I'm going to be friends with all

of my collectors on the level
of which friendships I want,

like I like my friendships to be
very deep, very spiritual, very

connected.

I don't like large groups of
people that are like surface

level and I know that can scare
some people away because there's

a lot of commitment in that.

Like you need to.

For me, for a friendship to
work, it needs to like have very

, a very sense of like
embeddedness within it, and I

know some collectors just want
to collect art and that's fine,

so I try to not put expectations
.

But I lean towards like art
first, build a relationship

afterwards and then like
strengthen those relationships.

Speaker 2: I really like that.

I'm very much relate to that.

I think I was having a
conversation with PA yesterday.

It's just like the
relationships that I have are

just miles deep.

You know, yes, and I can't.

Speaker 3: I don't know how to
do any other way, you know like

yeah, that's the thing is like,
I don't know how to do it the

other way.

Speaker 2: Yeah, very, very sure
I like that approach and I

really I want to highlight the
idea that you had, because it's

just like I think it was we have
a really prime opportunity here

and like both on the artist
side and on the collector side,

is like never have, never in
history have we had, as a

collector and an artist, this
much access to each other.

Like there's always been like a
zillion barriers, you know, and

a lot of people in our
intermediaries that are not

trying to bring people together.

They're trying to separate as
much as possible, you know, and

as someone who enjoys people and
enjoys art, like it's fun to

build relationships, but I think
that it's important, like I'm

really glad that you said that
like not everyone you know that

buys your work is you're going
to have a friendship or a

relationship with.

Like you know it might be okay
to have a cordial one.

I think is really what I picked
up there.

It like it doesn't have to be,
you know, super crazy in depth,

because like the reality is like
even I'm just going to go on

and it's like I think I read a
study around like how many

people, like how many people you
can actually have time for in

your life and how many people
you can call blistering.

It's under 10,.

You know, after that it's like
it just exponentially drops off.

You know you just don't have
that much time for people, yeah,

so I really like that approach
and I think that it's really

good to talk about that because
it's I think it's a lot of times

it's really I just look at a
lot of them.

You know artists that are kind
of coming into space today, or

you know who maybe are like you
know, like have some challenges

with approaching building
relationships, because I think

it's kind of going back to the
through line of what we were

talking about earlier of like
everything just kind of feels

black and white, without nuance.

You know, yeah, this or that,
and it's like what if I don't

like this or that?

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I
think the not the not wanting a

certain this or that should be
fine and honestly it's like

celebrated.

Like when you just put it into
two categories, like it takes

away a lot of the human
experience, like people aren't I

mean, there are people who are
wired like that, but there's

there's so many different little
niches for people and like if

those aren't normalized, like
people won't get to be

themselves truly, they'll just
do what they're expected to do,

because that's what either gets
you money or gets you a

friendship.

Like it's not authentic to me.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and and you
know what's wild here and I

think you and I have the same
probably enjoy the space for

this reason, is that
authenticity here feels rewarded

, like like I was telling you,
like in the web to space, or

like in the esports and gaming
space, authenticity was not

rewarded and I'm like man, this
is fucking exhausting, you know,

like it's just like one to be
myself, you know, and not front,

to be this person that I like.

I know if I like put on this
front, I could probably make a

lot of money and build a career
like this, but I just I couldn't

see myself doing that, not me,
no, totally.

So, um, yeah, it's.

I think it's an interesting
time right now, especially with,

you know, a lot of the money
either drying up or like going

to like larger, you know, to
like larger projects, you know

it's like I've spent spending
now that, like we've had a

little bit of time to maybe not
be so hopelessly addicted to

Twitter, is I've definitely been
looking at like, like alternate

number one, I've been reading a
lot of books.

You know are not a lot of books,
but I've been reading books.

I've made a commitment to
finish my first book since Lord

of the Rings, the Fellowship of
the Ring, back in elementary

school, nice, and it was Dune,
which you know like shout out

dude, that's an awesome book.

I did it on audiobooks.

But very, very one thing that
is captivating, you know, my

attention is that is in the
realm of technology outside of

crypto and that's the Apple
Mixed Reality headset.

And as someone I would love to
kind of dive in here a little

bit, as someone who makes you
know like 3D sculptures I've

seen it like on artifacts with
you know like on their website,

what's kind of your vision for
that?

Like I would love I just want
to like understand kind of how

you see this piece of technology
like changing number one.

I guess you could say crypto,
but I just say art in general,

like I just want to zoom out
entirely.

Speaker 3: Yeah, just to clarify
are you talking more like VR

and like experience wise or yeah
, the Apple vision.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it
has huge potential, but I also

think it is one of those things
that depends entirely on what

the target audience wants.

Like I don't think that's
something that can be forced

upon people.

Like I think people need to
want it first and so, like I

think it's a fine line where the
idea of having this immersible

experience is wonderful in
theory.

When you get into practice, I
don't know if people are going

to gravitate towards that long
term and get sort of that like

addicted nature to it, like they
did with gaming, and I mean

maybe that's just because the
technology isn't there yet, but

it doesn't feel like.

When I think about the VR world,
I don't feel drawn to it the

same way I do a video game, and
I don't know if I don't know why

that is, because there are
video games where, like, I could

play for 10 hours and not, and
it feels like one, but with VR

it still feels almost like a
chore, and I don't know if

that's because of the access and
the like level of

interactability that we have.

Yet, like I think we could get
there, but I don't know if the

like the mass population will
feel the same way about it as we

do with other things, and I
think that's because of the gray

area we're in, but I love
thinking about that as a reality

.

I just I don't know if that's
where a lot of my time will want

to go, but I also am aware that
that's just how I feel now and

I could change at any point,
because I love seeing what

people do with VR and the way
like you can experience certain

things, but I think we need to
broaden the horizons, for it to

be more like an everyday life
type of thing, like it feels

more niche still Got it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, what?

At $3,500?

You don't think that's mass
adoption?

No solid points, man.

I mean, you know, like, as like
I kind of viewed this as a way,

like I almost kind of like had
the same emotional, like

visceral reaction as they did
when the iPhone first came out,

you know, and I'm like okay,
like, while this might be like,

this product is like definitely
meant to be for, like you know,

the super enthusiast, you know
it's like most people are not

going to spend $3,500 for this.

You know, but the idea of mixed
reality has always been a

fascination to me and, to your
point, I think VR is just not.

I'm just like man, I don't
really want to subscribe to like

a ready player, one kind of
thing.

You know, like I just I just
don't want to subscribe to that.

I think the earth still looks
pretty dope, you know like.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thinking
too.

It's like we have a great earth
and it's not to say you can't

like enhance on that, but I feel
like there's like a there's an

injected division right now.

It's like it feels like this VR
is being forced upon us as

opposed to something we want.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a
great point, man, and I traced

that back to crypto, you know.

I traced it back to NFTs, like
you know, like I, we can.

We can scream about the
benefits of self sovereignty and

, like you know, being your own
bank and like having this, like

newfound freedom and building
community in new ways.

But it's like until, until
people have a reason to care,

like they're not going to, like
they're just, yeah, and that was

me, like I found my reason that
caused me to like ignore the

fud and like go down the rabbit
hole and figure out like what it

meant to me, but I think that
that's like kind of like the

ideal that's missing, you know,
yeah yeah.

So we are in this gray area
where it feels like a lot of

things are being forced, like, I
think, to people who are not in

crypto.

Crypto feels forced, I think,
to like the entire world.

Vr feels forced, like it kind
of feels like we're in this area

where there's like AI as much
as I still like I'm starting to

use it a lot more it feels
forced, you know, it's like man,

like what, like I don't even
know how to comprehend that.

You know, I don't even really
know like what questions ask

around that, but it just feels
like we're kind of getting to

this natural boiling point of a
gray area where it feels like

things are just going to have to
change, you know, for it to

start making sense again.

Speaker 3: Yeah, when I think
one of the things too with it

being like something that's
based in technology is the speed

at which it accelerates is
overwhelming for a lot of people

.

I know it is for me.

It's like I remember finding
out about mid-journey and then

there's four more things after
that and it's like there isn't

enough.

I mean, unless you're like
extremely passionate about it,

it feels like there's not enough
time to dabble into it, Like

you either have to be all in or
not, Otherwise you just like

kind of get left behind and I
like I wonder if that will slow

down eventually.

But it feels like things are
evolving so quickly that it can

be intimidating to a lot of
people.

Yeah, Because, like you see,
the you see like the top 1% of

like people who are really good
with mid-journey doing stuff,

and it's like on one hand it's
inspiring, On the other hand

it's like wow, this is
intimidating, Like there is a

lot to this.

Speaker 2: You know this.

You made me think about a few
different things where it's just

like yeah, kind of going back
to a couple of the earlier

points here where it's like it
feels like nowadays, the new

things that are being, it feels
almost like the people who are

just kind of psychopaths around,
like discovering new things,

are like the people who are
being rewarded and it feels like

the rest of the world is just
being drugged.

But like I say psychopath, you
know, like I say that like with

myself included.

You know it's just like yeah, if
we're still here, especially

like in the bear market, with
what, with everything that's

happening, you kind of have to
be at least a little delusional,

you know, to still be here.

And I look at that, though,
because I kind of look at my

friends, you know, and I look at
people that are, that are not

involved, that are kind of
working towards a more

traditional path.

You know traditional job, you
know family home, you know a lot

of other, a lot of other things
, not that it's not possible

here, it's just it's just not
traditional here.

There's nothing traditional
here, and I'm just I constantly

feel like, when I talk about
these things, like it almost

kind of feels like they're like
I still like it's like, you know

, no one has enough time to like
dedicate to this, and I feel

like the people that don't are
kind of being shot in the foot,

you know, and it's not not to a
fault, there's not really

anything we can do.

I feel like this almost just
kind of feels inevitable.

Is what I'm trying to say, and
you know, on one point, I feel

for those people, but if I'm
being like really honest and

being really candid is that, you
know, I didn't feel comfortable

until these types of
technologies started emerging

where I could really feel
comfortable diving in.

I feel like the world didn't
serve me before this, you know

totally.

So I'm like, while I feel pity
for, you know, not pity I was

like while I kind of feel sorry
at times, I'm just like you know

what, for the first like half
of my life, you know, or like

maybe a little, maybe a little
like more, I didn't really feel

like I had a place in the world.

You know, like I asked, like I
had my community, I was like I'm

very happy, but when it came to
like what fulfilled me

genuinely, I just felt so lost.

You know.

Yeah, totally I don't know.

Speaker 3: That's like I
definitely resonate with me

because I mean, I'm thinking of
like my time growing up.

I always gravitated towards
something online, like no matter

if I was with people in person,
like it felt like something was

missing.

And then when I found like the
NFT community, it was like, oh,

this is like, this feels like
home, Like this is like the

thing I wanted in an online
community, like people who have

similar goals and passions and I
don't have to pretend anymore

Like there are people who want
the same things I want, like I

don't feel obligated to want
something else because that's

either what my parents told me
to want, or like society, like I

can just want this thing and
also have it.

And I think that like that meant
a lot at the time of my life

that I found it was like I don't
have to pretend anymore.

But I mean, even having this be
what I do with all of my time,

it still feels like not enough.

Like I still feel like I'm not
putting enough time into making

art, even though I do it like
minimum seven hours a day.

And I don't know if that's like
a personal experience or if

it's like something that's just
because of how society has

developed, but like, even with
myself being all in, it feels

like I'm not giving enough.

Speaker 2: I very much relate to
that point.

I think we've been chatting
about that a decent amount.

I think a lot of it, though I
think there's a couple layers to

this.

I think number one.

I just want to like, yeah, like
the feeling of like, just like

finally having a place where you
can like have your cake and eat

it too.

It's like, oh cool.

Yeah, you know like I can be a
weirdo and I can like be

accepted at the same time.

You know, because when I was
growing up playing Halo, like

all I wanted to talk about was
like the really cool overkill

that I got.

You know, and it's like no one
else wanted to talk about that.

You know, it's like they're like
cool man, like yeah, it was

just I felt like constant, like
an outcast in that sense.

But to your point though, like
around, like I don't know if

this is how like society is, you
know, kind of just, if this is

just inevitable, like as a part
of our growth as a species.

You know, I think I agree with
that, like I think that there's

also a layer to crypto where
it's like we have got we got

spoiled with so much dopamine
hits in 2021 that I think that's

, you know, we're kind of
suffering the consequences of

that.

But you look at it in general,
you know, like even the people

who are like against the
technological world and against

digital identity and against
like all these things, it's like

you spend spend three or four
hours a day looking at your

phone.

You know like you're on social
media searching for that next

like notification.

You know that next hit like I
don't know man, I don't know

what the solution is, but I feel
like things need to break

before they get better.

That's just kind of my take.

Speaker 3: Yeah, something that
I actually found that helps me

is I've had my phone on silent
for five years now, like I.

I silence all of my
notifications.

Wow, if part of it is because
it overwhelms me and it

distracts me, but another part
is like I don't want to be

tethered to notifications, like
if I had my notifications on my

Twitter would be blowing up all
day and I would never get to

enjoy anything because even if I
don't open the notification, my

brain is responding to it.

Like I look at my phone and I'm
like, oh, notification,

notification, and like it takes
me out of the moment and so I

just leave it on silent and I
can just pick it up when I want

to.

And it has to be intentional,
otherwise it feels sort of like

automated.

And then you then, like you
said, you spend three, four

hours on your phone, yeah, yeah,
and it's like where did my day

go?

Speaker 2: Like I didn't get my
day and I want it back, Right,

well, let's see, I think the
thing that like really to this

point though, like number one,
I've silenced more notifications

.

I haven't gone full send, you
know, so I got like I'm getting

there, but I it's kind of like a
it's a journey for me, but it's

like.

But here's the thing, though,
is that toxic behavior was

rewarded in 2021.

Like, if you weren't going yet
you were missing out on every

fucking opportunity that ever
existed, If you weren't

hopelessly addicted to having to
be on Twitter and having your

notifications on.

Speaker 3: Like that was
actually I think I had probably

like 50 people's post
notifications on Like, just

because I was like, if I miss
one thing like that, that like

could be the difference of like
everything.

Like you, just you know, you,
just you know you, just you know

, you, just you know, you, just
you, just you never knew the

extent at which an opportunity
could go and it was just like.

It was like peak FOMO.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, but it's
kind of goes, it goes back to

the gate.

It's like you're gambling with
opportunity.

Except it's like you know, if
this all goes to zero, then it's

like cool, we made a lot of
friends along the way.

But the idea is, if you're
doing it safely, or at least as

safe as you can be, you know
you're not risking that much.

Like for reward that you're
getting there.

Yeah, I mean you are risking
something, but like the risk to

reward is like so much more
reward than risk in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So cheers to suffering the
consequences of that together,

man.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I still feel
like I'm like recovering from

that year, like I don't even I
don't even think I fully process

, like what even happened that
year.

It's just so many different
things.

Like I mean, even now I'll wake
up on a random day and be like

wow, like that was a real year,
that happened.

Like I'm not imagining that,
yeah, that really was man, I.

Speaker 2: It's funny how we
were talking with another artist

, olivia Petty, and she was like
I came in kind of towards the

end of the bowl, like what I
didn't like know.

She's like I just don't know
what this bull market is that

you guys have talked about.

It's been really fascinating to
talk to artists that like have

not been around during that time
and it's like Are y'all just

like, are you just like
bullshitting?

Like that doesn't feel real.

I'm like believe it was.

It was every bit as real as you
could ever imagine.

Speaker 3: It was I remember
there was this, there's this one

.

I want to say it was like peak,
peak, like of 2021.

I had traded like a piece of
mine For an NF tree from like

Lupefies project.

Speaker 2: Yeah, wow.

Speaker 3: Like it was.

It was a rare tree, it was like
a starry night tree and at the

time I got it, I like I think my
piece was about like the piece

that I traded was valued,
probably like two ethish, and

like within a week the tree that
I had was at like 30 ease and I

was like like this can't be a
real life that we're living

right now.

Even though it was, it was just
, it was so bizarre.

Speaker 2: It was a different
time, man.

It was a different time.

I mean I Like I keep hoping we
get that again.

Like there's, there's a,
there's a chance that you know,

like nothing's guaranteed, but
it's like, fuck man, like I,

here's the bull case and here's
the fat ribbohopium.

Is that like it's gonna be,
like it's gonna be back and it's

gonna be longer than it was,
you know the last time?

That's just like my.

I think that you know there was
a tweet I saw today.

It was actually by Jimmy.

Jimmy, daddy, he was one of the
very first people I had on the

podcast when I was in web three
and he was just like people are

saying NFTs are over and it's
like this is like when people

were like squeezing grape juice
on, like, you know, on camera

paint, he's like that's how
fucking early we are and I'm

like that's a little bit of hope
, you know.

But, like, when you look at the
use cases of what sparked the

bull run, it was like, the way I
view it, it was our first crack

at digital identity owning.

Owning, like what is ownership
of digital identity even mean,

you know, and if you look at how
simple that idea is, it's like,

fuck man, like there's got to
be so much more to it than that.

You know you got you.

Just you have to believe that
there's no way that there's not.

And if the idea evolves like
what's the next thing, it's like

man, once we actually start
applying these things to like

everyday people, that's like
we're a long way out from that.

By the way, but I Don't know,
man, it just feels like a.

It feels a lot different.

If this is how, if this is how
much money got injected for such

, for literally one idea,
imagine what happens.

Only three, you know, I don't
know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, definitely.

And like I, I was in a Twitter
space a while ago I can't

remember which one it was, but I
had briefly touched on that of

like we are still like, yes,
we're early and we're surface

level, but like we also need to
give time to let these things

develop like organically.

Like if we rush them, it can be
extremely Detrimental.

Like there is a point of no
return if you do these things

poorly.

Like you can ruin the
reputation of a community or a

product if you rush it too
quickly.

Something that comes to mind is
like the, the new poke or the

new ish Pokemon scarlet game.

Like they had rushed the
release of it and and the result

was terrible.

Like, yeah, frame rate and the
lag and the graphics, like it

was just not good, whereas if
you would have waited a few

months to get it to where it
needed to be before releasing it

, like it would have had such a
different outcome.

I mean, yes, people are gonna
buy it anyway because people

have Pokemon, but like I think
the principle still stands where

if you've rushed something that
has potential to be good, you

can actually ruin it.

Speaker 2: Mmm, yeah, I agree
with you.

You bring me back to cyberpunk.

Yeah, that was, that was a
traumatic experience, man, you

know, yeah, I, I Degree, I mean,
and I think, yeah, I definitely

, yeah, I, I definitely agree
with that, because it's I think

that's you could argue.

That's kind of where we're at
now.

It's like you one could.

One could argue, though, that
the people who are mostly

impatient have left.

You know, yeah, and I think
that the more we dwindle down,

more the number goes down.

You know, kind of the people
that are left are like oh wow,

this is like the core group of
people that I found when I first

started, you know, and it's
like, yeah, there you are, like

I haven't seen you in a long
time, with all the noise that

was that was being, you know,
put on my timeline.

So I Definitely agree with you,
though, and I think we're

suffering some consequences of
that, though, like look how long

.

Like People still think NFTs
are only board apes, like, yeah,

you know, but that's starting
to change, though Like I, you

know, like with, I think,
sotheby's has like they had some

challenges, some hurdles in the
beginning, but like I think

they're doing a lot better now,
you know, with kind of how

they're displaying art and the
marketing that's going into it.

And like the, the, the
acceptance of like generative

art, like cool, like this is,
this is dope.

Like people are Not just
conflating NFTs with you know,

monkey JPEGs like it's.

Like they're saying oh yeah,
side to it, there's like

actually art that's really dope
and this could be the future of

it, you know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the
thing that I would like like to

see most is sort of like what
comes to mind is like the way

that Twitch is set up.

Like you have all your
different niches, like you have

the just chatting, you have the.

Like VR, you have the, there's
all these are separated but

exist in the same system and so,
like someone could be a huge

fan of, like a MOBA stream, but
not just chatting.

But that's okay because they're
separated, like separated but

in the same ecosystem.

I think is really important for
this community because not

everyone likes board apes and
that's fine, like, but they

should have Access to their
niche and that should be

accepted and celebrated without
it feeling ostracized from the

whole of the community.

And so, like I would love to
see more accepted like Diversity

of groups and not just
everything being considered NFTR

or PFPs, like there are so many
niche communities that exist

but I feel like they don't have
those borders around their niche

to like really celebrate
themselves.

Speaker 2: That analogy to
twitch, just yeah, I've never

thought about it like that.

You're exactly right, you know,
because you go to twitch and

you you can look at.

You don't know what you want to
watch, and so you can find

literally any subcategory, but
it's all yeah on the same

channel.

One could argue the same thing
with you know YouTube and you

know, outside of the algorithm,
kind of like destroying our

lives there, you know.

But I like that point, I think.

So I guess I guess to sounds
like you've thought about this a

little bit, you know, and I,
and I really like that.

I Guess where I have a
challenge, you know, I like,

while I agree, I think, where I
just am not clicking all the way

, is like what does a boundary
look like?

What does a border look like?

You know, like, what does that
even mean conceptually?

You know like, is it a?

Is it like a Division on open
sea is a different marketing?

Is it just more marketplaces?

Like what the fuck is it that
is gonna like cause?

That, I think, is like the
question that I have, you know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, I
think that's still something we

don't have the answer to and
might not for a while Because,

like open sea does have
categories, but that's not

enough.

Yeah, you can sort by art, you
can sort by gaming.

Yeah it.

I think it's less about the
Boundaries of purchasing

something and more about the
communities within themselves.

Like we're all still pooled in
Crypto Twitter and if T Twitter,

like there's these huge
umbrella terms for our community

, that sort of like Dismiss the
niche communities and so like I

think because we're in this
exploration phase, we don't know

what the boundaries look like
or how they're gonna be like set

up or even if they ever will be
.

I think that's just an ideal I
have is like peak performance of

the community would have those
Nishes.

Like if Twitter could.

I think what might work is if
Twitter sort of structures

itself like Twitch, as opposed
to like the community itself.

Like if on Twitter you could
search for Surrealist art and I

know you can search that but if
there's an easier way to

discover that, that might.

That might have a positive
impact on the community.

You got my mind thinking, man,
I mean well, cuz.

Speaker 2: You know we see Elon
talking about this is like the

town square.

You know, that's like what
that's.

Yeah, that's what he wants.

You know, and like he's very
clear on that and you can see

he's making steps towards
towards that.

You know, even just some of the
Twitter features like now,

brands can like literally put a
job application on Twitter and

you can hide, like you can apply
directly from Twitter.

That's pretty rad, you know,
that's pretty cool.

You know, but also there was,
there was some news around like

trying to like being a being the
network to like facilitate

digital currency payments.

You know, like I don't know if
you saw that that's pretty wild,

but I think you're, you're like
, you're on to something, though

, man, like cuz, that's it.

That's, it seems like they're
right today.

It's like that's a ripe
opportunity for them.

You know, regardless of like
Whether it's within crypto or

outside of crypto, like even if
they did it on a bigger scale,

you know, like that still seems
something that I Don't know

could be done, and if you want
to go to the town square, you

can go to the town square.

Speaker 3: You know you can yeah
, exactly is like you have

access to all of it, and I think
something that I think Elon

just did with Twitter is now, if
you swipe up on a video, you

see related me.

I think that's a huge step and I
think, if they can increase

their algorithm to be Maybe
leaning more towards like the

way tick-tock algorithm works,
where it's like, over time, your

Content that you see becomes
way more personalized, as

opposed to just what's popular
Like, sure, there will be viral

tweets that show up on
everyone's feed, but the more

that you curate what you, what
content you look at and digest

is more of what you'll see.

I think that will play a huge
impact in like creating niches,

because then people just
naturally Gravitate towards each

other as opposed to having to
actively find those people in

their community.

Speaker 2: Mmm, I like that.

The one challenge I see with
this though, specifically when

it within our little niche, you
know Is that I see there's a

there's like one one, a couple
of artist group chats that I'm

in, where it's like, you know,
when some new innovation comes

out, you know, or some new
Protocol was out, some new EIP

rolls out, you know, it's like
Artists are like what's that?

You know like it's like.

And I say that because it's
like here we kind of are charged

to also know about the
technology that we're playing on

.

You know that's what kind of
makes this the space really

challenging is that, like you
know, if you flip between crypto

Twitter and, like you know, nft
Twitter, like you know, a lot

of it's blended right now just
because there's so little, so

little participants.

But it's a very different
community.

You know like it is.

It is very.

You know crypto Twitter is very
.

It's a challenge.

I conflate crypto Twitter to
like League of Legends community

.

You know where.

It's just brutal.

You know like there's some of
the smartest people there, but

it's brutal and it's unwelcome,
you know.

And then you come over to NFT
land, it's like oh, we like

pictures.

You know it's like this is a
community.

I understand better, right, but
if you don't kind of know

what's happening, it's hard to
really participate in NFTs,

because they're tied to Twitter,
they're tied to crypto, you

know so yeah.

I don't know, man, yeah, it's
the one challenge because, like,

I'm glad I have a foot in kind
of both parts of the community,

like I try to learn as much as
both of them as I can, but, you

know, for the people I don't,
it's like, well, fuck, like, if

we're, if we're trying to
onboard a lot of people,

especially artists, you know,
because, like it's one thing

that I have learned is that
wherever the artist goes, really

where is really where the rest
of the world goes, you know,

ends up going.

Yeah, like, if we're asking
artists to come here and do that

, we shouldn't have to have them
be so dependent on, like,

what's happening or what you
know what's happening in crypto,

twitter, that could affect the
sales of NFTs, or like it could

impact, you know, whatever,
whatever it impacts in our

community.

There's a lot of different
reasons.

Speaker 3: So, yeah, I actually
really like that you compared it

to League of Legends, because
it's like that definitely

resonates, because it's like
people who already are invested

in League of Legends thrive
because they know more than

people who are new to it.

And it's like I remember there
have been friends where I've

tried to get them into like
MOBAs and it's like you don't

realize how invested you are
until you try and teach someone

who's never touched it.

And you're like, oh, this is
like.

This is very like unwelcoming,
this is hostile, this is like

dangerous for new people and
that is not a sustainable

environment.

Like it you can keep afloat the
current community you have,

because it's sort of like a
sunken cost fallacy of like you

spent so much time learning a
game that you feel obligated to

play it and like the more time
you spend away from it, the more

you miss out on like the time
you already spent.

But it also doesn't help.

New people want to join because
they try it out and they just

get like attacked and roasted
and like people who are new to

something don't want that.

They want to be welcomed and
like like have their hand held,

which should be okay.

So this is not the case with a
lot of things.

Speaker 2: It's not man, it's
not, it's not a very I've never

tried League of Legends just
because of that, like, I've

heard a few people that this is
like I'm I'm not a big MOBA fan

in general, you know.

So it's like the cards are
already stacked against me and

it's like if, if I'm just going
to be like roasted by a bunch of

people who have probably spent
a collective like three years

playing this game, you know,
like I'm spent, I'm like I'm

just I'm just not going to do it
, you know, or?

Speaker 3: yeah, no, totally.

Speaker 2: I've heard horror
stories from that and it's uh,

that's, I think.

But again to like kind of drill
down on our little niche

community, I think that's like
what really attracted me to it

was that people were so willing
to help.

I think that's really hard
about this you know?

Um, yeah, it just, it was a, it
was easy, it was welcoming.

I was like, oh wow, I could
just ask questions of people and

like they'll answer it and
they'll not make me feel like

yeah, no, seriously.

Speaker 3: I remember when I
first joined like I didn't know

how variable works, so someone
like hopped on a call with me,

taught me and then paid for my
first mint and I was like this

is such a new experience to me,
like I am used to the gaming

world where, like you kind of
have to suffer through a period

of pain before you're actually,
like accepted, and I thought

that's just the way every
community worked, was like, okay

, I'll need to suffer a bit,
I'll eventually get there, but

for now, like things are just
going to be terrible.

And then, like on day one, I
was like, oh, people are nice,

like this is new.

Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, I yeah,
yeah, it's there's a yeah, cause

there's always like this like
initiation period, you know,

joining a community.

It's like, you know, you just
got to learn the ropes.

You kind of get trial by fire,
you know.

But what here's kind of what
I'm getting at or getting from

this conversation, is that you
know what if it's the people

that are still here, you know,
like what if it's our job

outside of our like normal
contributions, to kind of be the

bridge between CT and NFTs for
new people that are coming in?

You know, cause I look at
people like these, you know, and

it's like, yeah, like he's
accepted in both communities,

right, like, which is very rare,
you know, like it's at the very

rare type of person to be
accepted in both communities.

But it's almost like for those
of us that are still here, for

those of us who are kind of
lumped into CT now as well, it's

like what if that's part of our
responsibility, you know, and

it's like, do we really believe
in this enough to like have kind

of that, be charged with that
extra responsibility of like,

hey, like this is kind of how
you do it, or here's some money

for your first met, or like this
is kind of what it means to

have a protocol in place.

So this is what it means to
like meant something on your own

contract versus like a shared
contract, and this is what it

means to meant on different
tokens, you know, and layer zero

, interoperability and all this
other shit, like I mean, I guess

I I guess I'm just
pontificating and wondering,

like what, if that's our job,
you know?

Speaker 3: like I think it is.

Like I remember there was a
period of my life where I felt

like I didn't owe people
anything and people didn't owe

me anything, and I thought
that's how the world works.

I was very wrong.

I now believe that if you are
in a community or if you have

knowledge that you do owe it to
other people to share that, not

to say everything you know, but
like we are all figuring things

out as we go across all fields
of life and I do think from

person to person, we have this
inherent responsibility to help

each other because it makes
everyone's life easier.

Like, if I know something that
you don't and it could help you,

I now am at a point in my life
where I feel obligated to share

that with you, like it would
feel wrong not to.

And so like I think, especially
in these communities, like

there is so much useful
information that new, like

newcomers, can benefit from that
.

Like I do believe we have a
responsibility to share that

with each other and not gatekeep
.

And that's not to say like 100%
, like give away all of your

information for free, but
there's a lot of surface level

information that people just
don't have access to.

And if you have it like, it
doesn't hurt to share it.

Speaker 2: Totally Like.

It's like, if you want, if we
really want this to succeed,

it's like then it's our
responsibility to help grow it.

You know, it's like it's not
just going to happen by wishing

it happens.

Like because Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, and I, yeah, I'm
glad, I'm glad that you aligned

with that, because I definitely
feel that as well.

And in the beginning at least,
you know, I've kind of gotten

away from it just because there
hasn't been as many new like

participants coming in, but
there was like a couple Gary Vee

articles that I would send
people.

I'm like like, read this first.

You know, like because he was
one of the only people putting

out written content that you
didn't have to go to read a

fucking white paper to
understand.

You know, no one's going to go
read a white paper.

You know, like at least not
many.

I mean we will, but like not
many people will do that.

So it's not, you can't put that
on people to do that.

You can't like.

You can't say it like because
if you just come into a

community, it's like hey, here's
a white paper.

It's like I'm out, man, like
there's no way, yeah, yeah.

It's like all right, yeah,
peace out.

Man, like what you got is not
worth my time to learn, you know

, I promise you.

But yeah, this has been, this
has been great, man, like, I

feel like we've gone a lot of
different, a lot of different

places.

Speaker 3: We yeah, yeah, and I
feel like if we would have had a

structure, it wouldn't have
happened, which I appreciate.

Yeah, yeah, it's nice to just
let a conversation flow how it

flows, because I think that's
where, like you like, we'll just

gravitate towards the things we
care about.

Yeah, like, and I like that.

Speaker 2: Which is what makes,
which is what people you know

like, which is where the most
enjoyment comes from, regardless

of what you're doing Totally.

I guess the one question I did
have written down and like I

found was really interesting in
your interview it was one of

your written interviews, it's
kind of like a good way to like

wrap things up here is that you
know you mentioned it was with

NFT plazas.

I'm not sure when that was it
seems like a while ago but you

mentioned one of your dream
collabs with Smeca and you

mentioned that they were your
biggest inspiration outside of

art, and I would love to know
why outside of the space.

Speaker 3: I think there, I mean
, there are a lot of like

qualities in her as a human that
I just respect.

Like she is authentic, she is
hardworking, she is passionate,

she knows.

Like she knows what she likes
and she shows the world that and

I think that's something that
is really inspiring to me of

like expressing yourself in the
way that makes the most sense to

you and like not really caring
what comes after that.

Like I think that's just like an
inherent duty of a human is to

be yourself and show the world
that.

Like allowing the world to
perceive you it's something that

I've been scared of most of my
life and still working on is

like there is a there is an
underlying fear of being

perceived of.

Like the more people know about
me, the more vulnerable I have

to be, and so I would put on
like different acts essentially

growing up, of like not having
the people to know my true self.

But now, as an artist, I get to
show people the side of me that

I've always wanted to be seen
as, and it feels liberating and

validating to know that there
are people who appreciate that

and want more of it, and I think
she was like a big example of

figuring out who I was as an
artist and as well as a person,

and just like, how do I want to
approach my life, and I think

natural, just genuine expression
is something she does very well

.

Speaker 2: Love that answer, man
.

I, yeah, I really fuck with
that.

I won't add any commentary
because I think I think it's a

great place to end it.

Yeah, yeah, man.

Well, chewy, this has been
awesome Again.

Like I'm so like I knew like
right from the moment we started

chatting offline that this is
going to be great.

A lot of vibrational alignment
without really prior

communication yeah, totally, you
just love to see it when that

happens.

It's one of my favorites.

So last, I guess you know I
would be a bad podcast host if I

wouldn't give you an
opportunity to like plug.

You know where people can find
you and also, if there's

anything upcoming, you know this
will probably be released in

about a month or so, you know.

So, just kind of like with that
in mind.

But yeah, I just want to give
you the floor to like just to

share that information, yeah.

Speaker 3: I mean, the only
thing I really would plug is my

Twitter, because I have my link
tree in my bio, which has, like,

all of my websites and
everything, and that's where I

spend most of my time.

And then I am working on a
project that should be releasing

next month, but I actually
don't know if I'm allowed to

speak about it, so I'll just
hint at it and call it good,

there they get true.

I don't want to say something.

Speaker 2: I'm not supposed to.

Yeah, yeah, totally man, I get
that.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Don't want to step on toes
before that.

I'm definitely a big fan of
keeping those things tight when

they're supposed to be tight,
yeah.

Speaker 3: And also thank you
again for reaching out Like I'm

glad that this had come to
fruition.

It was something we could do.

It was a really great time.

Speaker 2: I'm glad, man.

Yeah, me too.

I mean, these are the types of
conversations I just thoroughly

enjoy, and so I'm glad that we
synced up and really stoked to

like get this out and to have
everyone hear it.

Yeah, awesome, man.

Well, hey, just hang out for a
little bit.

It's uploading in the
background, but we'll do a quick

sign-off, man, and have a great
rest of your day.

It was a pleasure.

Speaker 3: Thanks, yeah, you too
.

Speaker 2: Thank you for
listening to the Shiller Curated

Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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.

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signing off.