Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the Shiller

Curated Podcast.

We are so excited to be back
for season 2 and to kick things

off, we have the one and only
Patrick Amidon.

Patrick is an artist
self-labeled as a digital deus

obedient and is most known for
his explosive glitch art that

often provides commentary on
deeply rooted issues across the

world.

In this episode, we discuss
everything from the value and

impact of digital art,
maintaining a healthy and

sustainable ecosystem, tackling
the challenges of art discovery

and so much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
investment advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Patrick.

Gm.

Patrick, how are you, man?

Good, good, how are you Good to
see?

Speaker 2: you, thank you.

Thank you for having me on your
podcast.

I know we've known each other
for a minute, so it's good to

actually finally get the chance
to chat.

Speaker 1: Dude, I feel like
it's a constant bottleneck,

where it's like I'm only one
person and I have a lot of

interest and there's a lot of
people I really enjoy, and it's

like, yeah, there's only so much
time in the day, man, and I

feel like, especially right now,
where it's like markets are

kind of sideways only at best,
but mostly down, it's like now

is like the time to be able to
meet all the people that I just

didn't get to during, like the
hysterical frenzy of whatever

2021 was.

Yeah, dude, it's been a treat to
like watch you just like

navigate the timeline, watch you
expand, watch you grow, and

it's like sometimes, just like
being able to watch from the

sidelines isn't enough, man.

So that's why I wanted to have
you on and just chat with you a

little bit more, because I think
that what you're doing, not

only as an artist, is really
impactful, like for probably, a

personal career, but like
there's this, like I think, one

thing that always really that
really sticks out to me because

it's what I do, but it's like in
addition to like what you're

doing for yourself, it's like
how are people moving the space

forward as a whole?

Like where's the where's like
that, the contribution, you know

, and so and you have it.

You've made like a lot of major
contributions like to the to

move like art forward, to move
what three forward, and in lieu

of that it also moves yourself
forward, you know, and so it's

been cool to be able to like see
all that dude.

Speaker 2: No, that means a lot,
thank you.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I'll
tell you like, starting right

off, like I'm a huge fan of like
simple, like simple titles, you

know, and simple bios, and like
I really feel like when I look

at your bio, it's like digital
disobedience, like it feels like

everything that, like it feels
like you've become that in every

word you know that you say or
in every post that you do, and

it's like I said this yesterday
it's like when the art become

like, when the artist becomes
the art, it's cool, man, because

, like there was often times
when I see your post and I'm

just like fuck man, like I just
feel like it just knocked me

upside the mouth like, and I was
like damn, like it's like in a,

in a fun way and it's yeah,
really wasn't expecting to hear

that, but I'm glad I did, you
know.

Yeah, dude.

So I mean, let's just kind of
start like right off, like I'm

definitely a little curious of
like how I guess, how that came

to be, you know, and like I
guess I guess the double click

on that question I really want
to ask is like the digital

disobedience does this show up
like in any other area of your

life?

I see it, but it's like does
this show up in your personal

life?

Does it show up in other lives
that you have?

Does it show up, man, like how
do you, how do you do that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's funny.

It's funny.

You bring that up.

Let's see, I don't know, I feel
like it's.

You know, when I, when I was in
a, when I was in middle school

and high school, I was, I was a
skater and that was that was the

entertainment.

It was just going to some
public place in skating until

you get chased away from that
public place.

So maybe it's just the mature
version of that.

It's always been there.

This is just a healthier outlet
than wasting like local police

time.

So I feel totally.

Speaker 1: Did you ever go like?

Did you ever like remember,
like reading those CCS catalogs

like back in the day?

Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely yes
yes, yeah, I was great reference

.

I we're off to a very good
start, totally man.

Speaker 1: I never like a huge
like.

I wasn't like that good, I just
really I love to like learn how

to like I could Olly really
high and that was like the

crowning achievement of like my
skateboarding crew and I could

do it really well.

Yeah, olly over three or four
stacked and I was like, yeah,

it's kind of dope.

You know nice, anything outside
that asked me to kick flip,

fuck, no, like there's no.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we, we.

I think we peaked to the about
the same time.

That's like the breakthrough
moment is when you can, like you

put you, you deal with the shin
pain, learning how to kick,

flip, and I just never, never,
never, got through that.

Speaker 1: I'm a lot of me good
company.

Speaker 2: I'm a better artist
than I was a skateboarder, so

that's awesome.

Speaker 1: You know it's really
funny on this through line, like

I remember my skateboard was
the first real purchase like

where I spent like more than
like a hundred dollars, yeah,

something my entire life.

And like I remember, do you
remember your first like

skateboard?

Oh, absolutely, like down to
the fucking bearings and the

trucks and the deck and the grip
tape, like dude, that was, yeah

, that was my first major
purchase and it was also my

first thing where it's like once
it broke, I was like I guess it

wasn't, I guess it wasn't that
big of a deal, right, yeah,

anyway, that's cool, man, it's
kind of.

It's kind of cool to see like
back in like the early roots of

like this is kind of always been
like I guess the disobedience

part has always been there and
like you found a way to like

really translate that into a
career, which is kind of

fascinating.

You know, like I feel like I
think the other thing that like

is super fascinating to me is
that I was brought up in like a

very structured household.

I think what attracts me to like
what I number one learned in

the space as a whole, but like
also kind of why sometimes when

I come up with some of the
statements that you make, I'm

like damn, like it's kind of
breaking the structure that like

I was taught to fit into, yeah,
and so I would kind of love to

like learn about like a little
about your journey like with,

with early art, because I know
glitch has not always been, it's

like not been a super, I guess,
appreciated like I guess

culturally medium up until now.

Yeah, it's like on a bigger
scale, like I think niche it

definitely very much did.

So I'd kind of like to learn,
like you know, like what was

kind of like was there any
glitch inspirations that you had

?

Was there kind of how did that
come to be?

Was there like an accident that
like caused you to like see the

magic of that?

I'm always kind of curious,
because glitch is not as much of

a I'm still not like obviously
no X copy, and I know you and I

know you know ACK and I know you
know Jack NFT and I know

there's a few names that you
know like glitch is always good.

It's kind of been that very
much unknown to me, you know.

So I'm kind of trying to like I
guess publicly learn about that

and figure out like the the
essence of it and like what it

means to you, and like why you
chose to do that, or like, yeah,

I guess what it makes to you.

Speaker 2: Um, well, I guess.

So you know, I was making.

I was just making physical
pieces, um kind of kind of

trying to figure out the
Shraddard game.

Uh, it's mostly like running
2008 or so, um, and then around

2012, I got, I got on Twitter
and I posted.

I posted something I'd painted
and it just it felt flat looking

at because I have this physical
piece and you know large, large

scale stuff that looks great
when it's up, but taking a photo

of it and then putting on
Twitter like it just didn't look

.

It didn't look as good as it
does in the real world and it

just felt like something was off
.

It was like there was like a
loss of translation.

You know, it's like you copy
something, you lose some

fidelity.

You lost a lot of fidelity.

Um, so I was like, okay, what do
I do?

And then also I realized like
cool, like these are heavy oils,

they take months to dry.

I'm not going to have anything
for a while.

Like I need, I should have, I
should have more, more content.

Right, that's what social media
people do, totally.

So I was like so I was like,
okay, the combination of two

things.

And you know, I grew up like
like everybody did right Through

watching a matrix and stuff.

And you know, I was like you
know, it's kind of like digital

world, like I feel like if it
was dirtier, if the image was

dirty, if the image was
corrupted, then it would make

more sense on social media.

So I was like I'm going to, I'm
going to corrupt this, I'm

going to corrupt this image of
the painting and then see how

that looks.

So I dug into WordPad and some
of the older digital techniques

for glitching.

And you know WordPad.

You basically just like get a
low res version of the file,

open it in WordPad like the
default Windows application,

scroll down, because there are
there are thousands of lines.

Scroll down a little bit and
delete something, save it, open

it up.

It's corrupted, it doesn't work
, do it again.

So if you get some like warped
bands and interesting artifacts,

they're like okay, cool, like
this is something Like.

I felt like I felt like
corrupting the image made it sit

into the digital space more
honestly and it looked

interesting.

So I started doing that with
the physical pieces.

And then so, and I like the
animation, so I do these like

loops of the loops of these,
like glitched images, and then

that became kind of what my
thing is today.

But really quickly, people
started liking the glitch loops

of the physical pieces, a lot
more than the physical pieces

themselves.

And then I just, yeah, I got
stuck in kind of no man's land.

Right, you're making art that
no one can buy, right, it's like

right, as if, like, being an
artist wasn't bad enough, right,

I'm like now making art.

I know I can't sell, but I
liked it and everybody else

liked it.

So it just kind of became a
thing.

And then, coincidentally, that
was apparently what everyone

started.

Deli is glitch, you know.

So I mean, twitter couldn't
even host on the platform at the

time, right?

So you'd like put it on Tumblr.

You copy your Tumblr, like put
that on Twitter, and then, if

you go from Twitter to Tumblr,
actually check out the animated

version of it.

But so I started doing that and
also, kind of conceptually like

, the idea of like corrupting
the image to make it more

digestible and real on social
media seemed to work really well

for a lot of political stuff
too.

So you started doing, I started
doing some work around the

beginning of the Syrian civil
war, which was not covered at

all by kind of the Western media
for the first several years of

it.

But you hear these like terrible
stories about kind of what the

regime was doing to the people
and just there's, like a.

It bothered me that we weren't
getting any of the information

because, like you would guess,
right there's they're not an oil

rich nation, they're in the
Middle East.

So we didn't care, right yeah,
so it didn't really get covered,

so, but I so put together these
.

I just go through fine images
that people had shared from the

ground.

A lot of them are pretty
graphic, but then Glitchum,

glitchum, so they.

It somehow just took the
reality out of it just a little

bit, so I was able to share
images that you wouldn't have

otherwise be able to share on
Twitter because it would have

been censored.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Speaker 2: Yeah, as long as it
was Glitch.

I just like these animated
loops of just the images, just

in a really quick succession
just seemed to kind of hit in a

different way.

So yeah, so it was like that.

So it was the Tumblr or YouTube
.

My YouTube account got banned
for promoting terrorism.

Apparently that was that was
the synopsis of that was.

That was YouTube's take on my
political work.

So YouTube and China both think
I promote terrorism.

Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a
correlation there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, probably.

Speaker 1: There's probably.

Speaker 2: They're just gone for
digital disobedient.

Yeah right, so that's right,
yeah, so that was that, was that

.

And then that turned into kind
of a thing with you know, so

like Ferguson, missouri, and you
know Boris Nemsov got killed at

Russia.

So it just kind of like tell it
, I like telling these stories

that I feel like didn't quite
get the coverage that they

deserve, but telling them from
kind of this glitch distorted

lens, which is ultimately why I
was drawn to Glitch.

And you know Glitch was never
glitch has been around for far

longer than digital or has been
around People.

You know, yeah, you know, do a
lot of analog or mechanical

glitches with TV2.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I got like New
York at the Pepe Gallery where

they were you know, jules, and
like I know John Carborn does a

lot of that too where he just a
lot of like real old school, you

know ways and just like,
completely uses machines how

they were not meant to be used.

Yeah, it's really fun to see
that.

I think that's some of the
coolest shit.

Speaker 2: It's really
interesting, but I mean

ultimately, like, as long as it,
like, as long as the aesthetic

conveys the message, like I
don't really care, like I mean

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not pure,
as I don't care if you're doing

analog, I don't care if you're
using after effects, I don't,

but I mean that's your thing,
cool, like, knock yourself out.

You know, I'm just.

I care much more about like,
what glitch is for me, which is

it's like, it's a, it's an
aesthetic that conveys that

there's something corrupted with
the system.

Speaker 1: Hmm, so do you think
real quick?

I want to double click on that.

Do you think that that's like a
view that's shared by a lot of

glitch artists, or is that just
particularly your view?

Like is that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I mean,
it's a big, it's a big community

.

We argue a lot, right, so you
know a lot of people like you

know, glitches, glitches purely
a technical exercise, right,

like glitch unless you're
actually like to bending.

It's not glitch unless you are
hexed at a day.

Everyone has their own like
very niche definition of what

these things are, which,
coincidentally, is often what

they do, right, right, like with
every medium, it's only the

right, it's only it's only true
if it's my stuff, um, you know,

but I mean, like I don't care,
photo mosh, whatever, like if I

feel like it just really, for me
it just comes down to like,

what are you trying to say?

What are you trying to deliver
with the art?

And ultimately, um, I don't
know like you look across the

board with our AC, a lot of
contemporary artists, well, one,

and I know we're early in the
space, but nobody is as kind of

focused in their niche like they
are here.

And I know the other world.

You know people with a lot of
training, which helps, right, so

you can transition between
different mediums a little bit

more easily.

But also it's a matter of like,
what does this media, what

specific qualities of your
medium makes it unique and what

does that allow you to tell your
stories within a more

interesting, different way,
right?

So glitch with, especially when
it comes to like animated stuff

, like you can, you know, you
can layer, you can layer hidden

things in the different frames,
like you know, like the fight

club scene, like you can do
different things with glitch.

And I feel like leaning into
what makes your medium different

from other mediums is kind of
when you start to see the really

interesting work come out of it
.

So it's not so much what the
aesthetic is, it's how have you

like capture kind of the unique
qualities of medium that you're

using to tell your story in the
best way possible.

Like glitch is probably not the
best thing for all mediums,

right?

So ideally the artist would say
like oh cool, you know,

actually this is better as a
literal oil painting, I'm gonna

go do that.

Oh, this is better as a
generative piece, I'm gonna go

do that and be able to
transition between that, just to

share your story in the most
efficient way, like effective

way, possible.

Speaker 1: So I think I think I
something that you said there is

just like I think that's been
one of the biggest learning

experiences for me is that I
think my only exposure to art

before this was like as a young
kid.

I grew up in Houston so my mom
would always take me to like a

Houston Museum of Fine Arts and
the National Science.

It's like at a real young age
like I knew I enjoyed going to

that.

But I think kind of like a lot
of kids in the 90s where it just

like it was kind of like yeah,
that's kind of like a good

pastime thing to do, but like
you kind of got to grow up and

like do this and get a
traditional thing, so it kind of

just it fell by the wayside and
so fast forward like 23, 20, 25

years later it's like now I'm
getting exposure to it and to

the point I was gonna make is
that I didn't really fully

understand, like why different
mediums existed, and I think

that's been one of the coolest
things I think that I've learned

is like there's a way to tell a
story, like sometimes

photography is the best way to
tell a story, sometimes the oil

painting is the best way,
sometimes like glitch or

sometimes, yeah, like all these
different types, because I

didn't really fully understand
what it meant to tell the story.

Sometimes it's a movie Like I'm
gonna make.

I'm gonna I always find some
way to like loop in Oppenheimer

to anything that I talk about.

Like a really well told on the
big screen in an IMAX on 70

millimeter film.

That was like the way to see
that.

So I appreciate you kind of
like going into that, because

again I'm learned like I kind of
started really basic where it's

like okay, photography is
something I can really

understand.

So it's like been a really big
part of my journey is like

learning photography, learning
what objectively good

photography is, like learning a
lot of the different techniques

and a lot of the different
critiques, and then now it's

like okay, now it's like
generative art, now it's glitch

art, now it's all these other
things.

So it's been fun to like be
able to talk to different people

.

It's part of like selfishly you
know why I do this is like it's

really fucking cool just to
like learn about different ways

to tell it and people that are
obviously very dialed in to like

what they're doing and the
intent that they're intending to

like present this, as you know.

Speaker 2: I love it.

I love it and I feel like you
touched on something and it's a

bit.

I feel like it's a bit chicken,
chicken or the egg right, but I

feel like it's not discussed
enough about the impact of our

space, making art accessible to
a whole new class of collectors.

You know previously, and you
know liquidity and all this

stuff matters, cause there's
always been a lot of artists.

We just have never been able to
make a living except, you know,

the small handful.

But the reason is because
previously art was just a sunk

cost.

If you buy a piece of work
that's less than $50,000, good

luck ever being able to sell
that, unless you hit the jackpot

and you picked up a bank's earl
right Like, and the most people

like, no, there's like.

You buy art, it goes on your
wall and that is just for the

art.

You will never sell that.

You can't even really share
that much.

Like you're done, you're out.

You know you need to be over 50
grand, even begin to start

accessing galleries to resell
for their.

You know 45%.

But I mean, like you know, like
you're you're, you're sunk, but

like.

What we've done which is so
interesting to me is that we

have made it so that you can buy
a piece of art from an artist

and you can reliably get
something back for it.

Ideally, you like and you can
keep it.

But you always know, like push
comes to shove, you get laid off

.

Circumstances change that they
do for a lot of people.

A lot of times you know that
you can get something back to

that piece for, probably, right,
which is totally different than

it was before.

What that's allowed people to
do is A it's allowed people to

collect art.

Right, it's tough to say I'm
gonna spend thousands of dollars

on this thing that will only be
on my wall with no other

utility other than it makes me
happy in the morning, right.

It's tough to justify that.

It's much easier when you can
do the same thing but also say,

yeah, and if I need to, I can
just crack that piggy bank open,

get some money back and use
this, not a sunk cost.

So I feel like art's really
democratized access to

collecting, which, in turn, is
democratized access to art.

I mean it's such.

We talk about art.

You mean so many people, oh, I
got into collecting art, or I

got into collecting art and
you're now, you know, talking

with you.

You're just like rattling off
artists that you know and you

know and that's such a common
experience and I love it because

you know art is interesting but
art is now accessible.

So people can talk about art
and artists in a very different

way and you can collect them.

They have an addition.

Oh cool, you can collect that.

Oh wait, they have a one of one
.

You know, you can go a little
bit harder and get that.

I mean, yeah, the fact that
collectors can collect art

between you know, $510,000, and
not be locked into it for the

rest of their life, I feel like
is really it's been kind of a

single element that has expanded
this to be able to give the

artist the freedom to make a
living, to significantly

contribute to the space to be
accessible, for the artist to

come in and for us to really
ultimately have the growth that

we have right now.

I feel like it's
underappreciated, but I mean

it's so refreshing just to have
so many art conversations,

especially the people that are
now.

I mean my art collection was
like two pieces and I've been an

artist for a long time, right,
like you just.

You know, like you just, but
you know now hundreds of pieces

on Ethan, tess and Sol, so you
know it's I mean my art

collection is.

Speaker 1: You know, before this
was Tool Posters, you know it's

like-.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well done, well
done though.

Speaker 1: Yeah, right, it's
like.

Speaker 2: I mean like it's
pretty good flex, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: And they're all in
like really super nice frames,

because it's like for me,
concerts I don't want to buy a

t-shirt Like t-shirts are not
after a period of time, Like I

don't see many concerts anymore,
and it's like I go for

experience, I go for bands that
create an experience.

Yeah, and it's like, and you
get one every time you see a

tool show and you fucking
remember it every time you see

it or see them.

So to your point, though, just
like Jerell and that, yeah, it's

been like I did not have in my
bingo card at 30 years old that

I was going to be an art
collector or like at least start

to like amass a collection of
art, and it's like-.

Right, it's fucking cool.

Man Like this is kind of sick.

It's allowed me to do it and I
think to like go on this like

parallel or like to linger on
this a little bit, man is like I

think to your point of the
traditional world and kind of

you know, I guess going against
that or finding new ways around

that or I guess to expand it is
that I mean the people I buy

work from, like I have, like I
text, like we're on a text

message basis.

You know it's like in what
world have you been able to do

that?

Yeah, and like what world has
that ever been possible?

Like I consider them my
greatest friends and there's no

financial pressure to like pick
up a piece of their work and

that's what they're going to be
doing, regardless of our

relationship.

But the fact that, like I get
to have that relationship and I

get to do that, if something
speaks to me personally, I mean

fucking awesome, like it's so
sick.

I love it yeah dude, I've never
been able to do it before and

it's a really fun.

I'm glad that you touched on
that, on more of the financial

aspect and kind of like the
aspect of a sunk cost, you know,

because I think that's always
the friction.

I guess some of the friction at
least I've noticed, like in the

traditional world, is that,
like artists need to get paid

for the work that they do, but
also, you know, like there is a

financial element to it and I
know finances are not always

comfortable to talk about.

People don't like it, they are
really uncomfortable to talk

about at times because it kind
of touches on like the aspect of

like what we're worth and like
the value and like like some of

our self-consciousness.

I think it touches on a lot of
like really strong, you know,

feelings of identity as a human.

You know when we start talking
about money and but it's I think

it should be like amplified a
little bit more.

It's like, look, it's like it's
not.

The financial aspect is great
because it allows the

flexibility, it takes the
pressure off of the sale and in

my opinion I mean I mean I've
heard some horror stories from

like people just in the space in
general, but like, at least

personally, you know it doesn't
cause, like the fact that it can

be a little bit more, a lot
more liquid than traditional art

.

It adds, it takes away so much
pressure, like on the

relationship you know it just it
, just it doesn't.

it makes it a little bit easier,
it makes it a little less like

I don't have to think about it
for six months, type of deal.

You know what?

Speaker 2: I mean.

Speaker 1: I can make, I can do
that, and it's no, and there's

just a stronger bond.

I guess is the long taffinated
response way of of what.

Speaker 2: I'm doing with you.

Yeah, no, absolutely too, and I
feel like people don't.

I feel like people don't
appreciate that if the

collectors couldn't get some of
their money back in kind of like

in case of glass, in case of
emergency break the glass deal,

like if they couldn't get their
money back in kind of short

order, they'd be far less
willing to invest more into the

artist because they know they
can always get something back.

They're willing to invest more
into the artist.

So I don't know, I would
imagine it would be.

I mean, if something was like
500 bucks you're talking

thousands of dollars people
would otherwise be willing to

spend on it because they know
they can get it back Right.

So it's all the liquidity and
that whole side of it just

really makes the whole thing go
around for artists.

I know it's tough during the
winter, you know sales are down

there, but I feel like the whole
ecosystem is really supported

by this class of collectors that
are the whales of the space.

The space exists because of the
small collectors and the space

is relevant because of the small
or artists on the fringe, the

artists who thought it was much
sales, the artists that are

trying to break in.

So it's interesting.

It's very, it's flipped right.

The entire other art world
exists because you have a

handful of people selling works
for a lot of money and a handful

of collectors with a ton of
money to spend on those artworks

, and that is how you do it.

But here we are the exact
opposite, like we have a

relevant and interesting art
movement because of the

diversity of our artists and
because of the breadth of

perspectives here, and that's
only enabled because we have a

lot of collectors that are of
that size as well.

So I don't know, I feel like
people need to appreciate the

good things that we have here
and also just understand them.

So when you see things happen,
you know kind of what side to

support.

You know, because ultimately
it's very fragile.

You know, I feel like I've said
this before, but nothing about

what we do is guaranteed,
deserved, promised.

We're not entitled to anything,
and we could either have this

inclusive art movement with
thousands of new collectors

discovering art and thousands of
artists being able to make some

contribution to their living
through art that they otherwise

would be able to make, and we
could keep expanding and growing

Again.

That comes down to that comes
down to, hey, supporting artists

at the margins so they don't
leave.

And it comes down to supporting
the collectors so they have the

stability, security, liquidity
context.

You know, helping new people
understand what qualities in art

and artists matter.

So they're not.

So they're making good choices,
right?

I mean, that's how we keep
expanding out.

Otherwise, you know, I feel like
there's no reason why, if we

don't maintain this inclusive
and accessible nature, that we

don't just contract down to the
seven artists who you know we

could probably all list and then
all it'll just be this weird

little thing.

We're hey, we've got a time
where we made art a blockchain.

You know, the rest of the art
world's like that's strange and

no one else's, everyone's is
long gone and you know, the

whole thing is falling apart and
it's ultimately totally

irrelevant.

I like the first one and that's
that's a big part of that's a

big part of why I just Like
being vocal about it.

You know, I think, I think
everything like there's no, no

platform is gonna come in and
say in you, no museum is gonna

come in and tell you how to do
the right thing.

You know, it's entirely on us
to either build this well or let

it fail, and I Feel like that's
that's, that's a.

That's something that requires
everybody in the community to.

You know, at least debate,
discuss and like, have an

understanding of kind of what
direction we could go, what

directions we don't want to go.

You know, so we can.

You know, things like a sound
XYZ right, we've avoided this in

our but, you know, use a
platform pushing a user growth

strategy where they're telling
all their musicians to mint

things for a dollar.

Or you have other things like
Zora and these other things

talking about, like protocol
rewards where you charge a free

mint but there's a fee and they
take 60%, you get 40%.

And like, you know, like we've
seen all this before like, no,

where we, we don't need to be
part of somebody else's user

growth strategy at the expense
of flooding the market with a

bunch of late you slips, nfts,
ultimately destroying the

promise of what we have.

You know, we have a, we have a
lot of sovereignty right now and

we have a lot of power as
artists.

For now, you know, we saw, we
saw what happened with Spotify.

Right, you know, everyone,
everyone had their, the promise

of a royalty, and then, cool, we
get established.

What happens?

Oh well, we, our costs have
gone up, we can't quite pay the

same royalty.

Oh, we can't quite pay the same
royalty and all of a sudden,

everyone's getting fractions and
fractions of penny.

Things can erode very quickly
and I feel like the more we can

kind of and again, this feels
aligns with crypto ethos really

well.

I mean, you talk about
self-pestity, sovereignty and

like being responsible for your
own actions.

I feel like that's something
that we really need to embrace

in the space.

Just really Not see our power
that we have right now to these,

to these, to these, to the
platforms and other entities

that are coming in and for
they're trying to make a dollar.

I get it, you know.

No, no, no harm there, but if
it's at the expense of our

long-term potential of the space
, I Feel like people really need

to go and eyes right open,
especially during the winter,

because you know, when you're
hungry, it's really really easy

to like, yeah, you know, take
the free food and you know, yeah

, sacrifice everybody else.

You know forehead.

Speaker 1: So I Get you, dude
you.

You touched on a lot that I
guess resonates with me, so it's

hard to pick one or two to Well
, just let's not to talk more.

Yeah, that's right, yeah, I'm,
which I'm totally down for man,

so something that, like I was
curious and I think you touched

on it.

Uh, really well, just now.

Number one, just to comment
like I think the older I get,

the more fragile.

I just look at the entire human
existence like this, like the

structures that were built on
this, like yeah, oh, like, how

are we actually functioning as a
society?

This is, there, is there is
clearly something greater than

us at for at work, because, yeah
, like there's no way, with

everyone behaving the way they
are, that this should be even

remotely close to functional,
because it's it's.

It's incredibly fragile.

So I just wanted to like yeah,
I mean, I know we're talking

about the art world, but like
I've, especially in this space,

you know, because it's like you
know I hate to like Repeat the

meme, but it's like you know the
intersection of, like, art,

finance and technology.

I still believe that it's like
you get, like I have learned

more about finance in the world
just by Enjoying art, you know

yeah.

I have made work and more
responsible financial decisions,

like when I've been in this
space versus when I haven't, so

I think it's incredibly
fascinating.

But one thing that I've always
been curious about is that

something I really enjoy is
always that start-up feel.

You know, it kind of still
feels like that's where we're at

.

Right now is.

Even when I was in a corporate
job you know, a couple years

before I went full-time here was
like there was this kind of

like Pirate ship mentality where
it's like, you know, like we're

kind of like we're breaking
shit, we're like building

something new.

It's like 20 to 50 of like the
smartest people in the entire

company across all different you
know Professions, whether it's

in product, whether it's in
marketing, whether it's in sales

, whether it's in, you know,
design, whether it's in whatever

the case may be, it was like
the best of the best and it was

really fun To be able to work
there, in spite of a lot of the

hardships I had from like the
corporate side of the business.

You know, I was willing to put
up with that because it was just

something really special, like
I felt like I was a part of

something new and that's very
much like still, even though

we've been here two years is not
that long, but here it feels

like an eternity.

It's like, how do we continue
to like maintain that

sovereignty, like, how do?

How do we continue to like,
have this same feel where it

doesn't erode fast?

Well, like, because, like, I
feel like it's, it's.

I think if you look at history
it's easy to say like, oh well,

that's just the nature of human
beings, like it's just

programmed, it's, it's, it's
programmed to erode.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, because you see it all
the time.

You see, like something starts
off so great, but very few are

able to maintain that greatness
At the same, at the same rate

that they're growing.

It's like, how do you keep that
special part?

How do you make it still feel
brand new?

How do you still operate
anything, principles as this

thing grows and as it evolves
and more people get involved,

and I think that is the
challenge.

So I think I've heard you talk
about it before, but it's just

like how, I guess, how do we
keep doing that?

You know, like, how do it?

Like what is?

What are some of the things
like in your ideal world?

You know, like, what are some
of the steps that, like everyone

can take, you know, regard like
, regardless of how you

contribute to the ecosystem,
whether you're a collector,

whether you're an artist,
whether you're a builder,

whether you're Just in it for
the finance.

You know, I know, flipper, like
oftentimes in the art, yeah, and

in our community, like flippers
are like very, you know, look

down upon, but it's like they
bring in a necessary that's.

I feel like it's all necessary.

You know, how do you kind of
view the roles of like everyone

here and like how do you, I
guess, how would you view us

continuing to keep this because,
like I fucking love it yeah,

there's a few, is it not gonna
be like this anymore?

And like I just, yeah, I love
it right now, even though it's

bad.

You know, like it's kind of,
we're kind of sideways only and

you know, but it's like fuck man
.

I know, I know that day is
coming.

Yeah, I know, I know that day is
coming.

So, yeah, I love to hear what
takes on that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I
know, I don't, I don't mind

slippers at all.

It's funny.

I mean, a lot of people here
have finance backgrounds.

They're complaining about some
element that emerged to create a

more efficient market.

Like, okay, like I know it hurt
your back, but I mean the same

time, it's just like it's a
healthy thing that this is a is

something that is actually valid
for them to do.

No, I mean, like what do we
need to do?

Right, and again like it.

Just again, like what you said,
right, I agree how fragile

everything has.

A look what happened to Hong
Kong.

Yeah, I was a democracy and
then, a couple years later, no

longer democracy, right, and
it's oh, we didn't see that

happening.

Oh, look it like it would
Russia did in Ukraine, right?

Oh, we respect international
borders.

Were, you know, evolved society
?

Blah, blah, blah.

Oh wait, they just invaded,
like you thought, like you

thought we were done with that
because you know, like World War

two was over, like no, like
this, this stuff still happens.

You know, you look at freedoms
like it's all, it's all very

fragile.

You know, it's just a couple
laws here and there, and all of

a sudden, like the things that
you think are your right and

just Going to always be here
won't necessarily be so.

Apply that to our space.

Right, and we're newer and even
more fragile in a lot of these

institutions, so everything that
you like about this space could

vanish tomorrow and I feel like
it's on us to it's on us to

kind of carve out the world that
we want to see.

You know, for me, I Just see.

You know, like, I see a lot of
fragmentation in space.

There's a lot of platforms,
which is great.

I mean, look, if we had
continued in 2021 and super rare

was the sole arbiter of who is
a good artist and who isn't,

that's a terrible world to live
in.

Like that's, that's not, that
is, that is not.

There's not how the space
should operate.

Right, it's not decentralized,
it's not.

It's not particularly get
meritocracy that way.

But also now, so like healthy
that we have this fragmentation.

But also it's hard to find.

It's hard to find all right,
like are you on foundation,

foundation world and super rare
space or intense or soul, like

Zero one?

I mean it's.

We have so many different
Platforms right now it's really

tough to find the heart.

And also we have we have a
bunch of chains.

I mean got Eve L2's right, tez,
soul, avax is getting into the

game and ultimately, I don't
think that.

I think that the chain makes up
Some material element of the

quality of the medium.

So the chain does matter, but I
don't believe the chain matters

quite as much as maybe is
priced into the work right now,

not that ETH is overpriced, but
maybe that some of the other

chains, the art there isn't
getting the respect that it

should, that or ultimately will,
which I think is more important

.

So I think that, I think that's
, I think that's something, but

I mean, oh, I think, like I
Think part of this kind of

fragments in nature of the space
and the fact that it's all run

through Twitter and the
algorithm, and you know, I know

people, I know people complain
about the algorithm a lot and

it's a tricky thing.

It's a tricky thing to navigate.

But you know, our space is
essentially Twitter is just like

a giant tapestry of circles.

Right, you've got you've got
your core circle that you say

something, it hits everybody in
your core circle.

They all see and they all think
it's cool.

It'll leak out a little bit to
random people that you know

outside of your circle, right,
but it makes it really tough for

you as a as a newer artist, to
have your work kind of shared

widely you're seeing widely,
which makes it really tough

because you know there's a
handful of collectors that will

vibe really well with your work
and you may not have met them

Right.

So how do you?

How do you, how do you get
discovered?

How do you find your people,
whether that's artists, whether

that's collectors?

So I think discoverability
matters.

I don't, we can't guarantee
everybody's work.

It's all that's insane.

But I do think we can do a
better job of creating Systems

or an ecosystem where you have
the ability to be seen.

Yeah, I feel like if, if you
can be seen on the same level,

if you made something, you
should be able to have your work

seen on the same level as me,
right, like just Side by side.

Okay, look at, look what Boona
made.

Cool, okay, I saw it.

Right, like you, you were
actually able to be seen, and I

feel like that opportunity.

If we can make that more equal
For artists across the board, I

think we address a lot of the
problems in the space.

So I think discoverability
really matters.

Speaker 1: One question I
brought like that I'm thinking

about is like I've noticed that,
like you know, you've you've

done Like fantastic work with
join, like that 404 collection

is was really cool and like
there, I know you just like

recently announced for like
click create, so it's like that

feels like a step in the right
direction to like discover, you

know, artists where they're,
where they're viewed.

Along the same side because
I've heard NorCal and clutch

talk about it a lot it's like we
have our like that tap street

circles.

Like NorCal like only follows
photographers, Only follows

photographers, you know, or most
not only.

But it's like it follows a lot
of photographers and so

naturally he just sees mostly
photography and most of the art

that is brought in.

He's not most, but a decent
amount.

He's like never fucking heard
of it.

Like why the fuck have I not
heard of it?

And it's not because they are
make like non-quality work, it's

just the the way you know
Twitter operates.

So I mean I think curation is
like I, I mean to me it's

incredibly important and I mean
there's there's a lot of

different ways to do it.

But, um, is there anything
outside of that?

You know to like help, like I
guess, like Help us become a

little less Fragmented.

You know to like remove some of
those fragments or like you

know, because that seems to be
what's working right now at

least, in that like you could be
seeing something more.

But that's like that's been my
way of finding, or a decent a

way.

Yeah, cuz I don't.

You know like I'm weird, like I
don't necessarily like browsing

foundation or super rare.

I don't like me.

I just I like I like the thrill
of like finding something.

Well, I hate it yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: No, I hate it because
and this is this is this is

what the reason why I started
for a four is I'd find artists

that I liked.

I Go look through their
collection of work and we're a

couple years in.

So Multiple collections,
multiple things, oftentimes a

number of unsold pieces, and
it's really tough with that.

A conversation of the artist
Figure out like, okay, what do

you actually, what should I get
from you?

Right, like I like your work, I
like these things, that's why

I'm looking at your, your body
of work, but like I don't know

what you would recommend that I
get from you without having a

whole conversation about it,
which, again, is friction, and I

feel like you just want to
reduce friction as much as

possible for everybody.

So that was kind of the idea.

Is you know?

You know what if?

What if artists just can only
submit one piece, then of

everything they have available,
they have to pick one, which I

know is hard, but Pick one piece
, share that piece, and then I

know, hey, this is like one
piece that you Want to be seen,

want to be sold, highlight it,
like there's something about

that piece for you, for you to
have selected that one piece,

and that makes it a lot easier
for collectors, you know,

because a lot of it, like, the
art matters.

Yes, the artist matters more.

The art doesn't make sense
unless you know the artist story

, because so much about the
artist's personal story,

perspective, experiences,
influence, what the art actually

is.

You know, I was talking about
this on the spaces the other day

.

You know NFT, nftp.

She's a indigenous artists here
doing kind of cool retro

feature stuff about indigenous
peoples and then Western

expansion, so like cowboys and
teepees, but yeah, it's

interesting.

If I did that it'd be like,
okay, cool, cool piece of art.

Right, she does that as an
indigenous woman.

You're like, oh, like that hits
, like that, that's, that's a,

that's a real piece of art.

Right, it's not just something
that looks cool and I feel like

so helping more people get their
story out, helping being able

to understand more about the
artists, I think so it helps

when artists are like here's the
one piece and then it's easier

to like kind of figure out, like
more about them.

And I don't know, it's a, just
I don't know, there's there,

there will be a lot of work out
there.

There we have thousands of
artists and ideally we have

10,000, 100,000 people all
creating work.

So the other, the other thing,
the other thing we're working on

right now is creating more AI,
ai tooling.

I started talking about that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah.

Really, I was going to ask you
about that, for sure.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I, first of all
, I I'm always like, I'm always

just like, generally inclined to
think that everything that's

been done already is wrong for
some reason.

Yeah, she'd help, I like it.

I'm like it's like I do, like I
feel like most everything is

like some dude back in the day
had some angle and convinced

everybody that that was the
right way, even though it

probably wasn't, you know so.

So that was that's always so.

Like, with categorization, with
genres, with all these things.

I mean, there's, there's
especially genres, there's even

genres is a whole like racial,
dark racial component to that.

So it's, it'll be interesting
to it'll be.

It would be interesting to say,
like, let's scrap what we know.

Hey, you, the AI, how would you
break up all of this art into

different categories?

What does the AI see?

What?

What commonalities and and
message themes, subject, content

does the AI see to going to
break this up into into

searchable categories?

So I think that I think that
that's an interesting way

forward in the space Because
ultimately, again, like you talk

about friction, you talk about
the space like the machine

moving smoothly, I think, being
able to find the art that you

like quickly and find the
artists that you like quickly,

and not having to like scroll
through foundation and just be

like collect the art but like I
know nothing about the artists,

there's no context, yeah, it's,
it's like impossible to do, it's

, it's a it doesn't work, it
just just, it just doesn't work.

So I think something like I
think something like this would

would help people find art,
similar artists.

And I think, again, you talk
about how do you make this

scalable.

I mean, we're already, we're
already seeing and in our like

primordial movement, right,
seeing seeing the limits of a

lot of different scales.

Right, there's a lot of art
right now and we're just really

really early.

So how do you?

How do you create?

How do you create systems that
actually allow us to digest

everything that we're doing, we
do?

We need more curators.

We need more curators.

We need more writers.

The tricky thing we haven't
figured out integrate writers

into the ecosystem very well yet
, but it would be really helpful

to have like poets or kind of
like, just like people writing

about art people running about
art and talking to people with

you know some, whether it's you
know backgrounds or history,

whether it's backgrounds and
kind of the gallery space, just

having an educated perspective
on art.

And we don't have to, you know,
we can, we can disagree on

everything, I don't even care,
but just have a perspective,

share the perspective, and then
we can, you know, we can fight

about it.

Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, well
, it's just the natural, I mean

kind of you look at like the
tradition, like, at least from

what I know, the traditional art
world.

You have a lot like anytime
something's happening.

You have essentially a lot of
independent art websites and

writers like writing about it.

You know it's on their website.

There's dialogue happening,
like you said, like we probably

a lot of it.

No one, most people don't agree
with you know, but there's a

discourse happening and the
point is that it creates a

discourse.

You know it creates that, it
opens that door.

You know, and I think I know I
had a thought before that, but

the thought pretty much escaped
me, but I, oh, here it is You're

talking about with AI, like I
think something that like really

drew me to the blockchain is
that you know, this was built

like the culture is like a very
anonymous culture.

It's a.

It's a.

It's a.

It's a code built by a bunch of
people where they don't have to

see their face like the creator
of Bitcoin.

We don't know if they were one
person, we don't know if they

were 30 people, you know, like
we just truly don't know.

But the point is that it's a
trustless system and it creates

the and it enables humans to
remove bias, to remove that

trust element, you know, which I
think is great and I there's

like a lot of these problems
exist, but also it's like

sometimes we're like fighting
against our own human nature,

like it's impossible to not be
biased as a human.

Speaker 2: Like there was some.

Speaker 1: There was some people
.

Most people aren't inherently
born quote unquote bad.

You know, it's like the
environment has a big role to

play which shapes, like your
childhood, which shapes your

beliefs, like you know, and and
and.

Like living in different
countries, like there's when I

traveled to Egypt this is a bit
of a tangent, but it's like I

really woke up to like, like,
even though we have a lot of

problems here, it's like fuck,
and like they, like I have to

tip to use the bathroom and some
people depend on that.

You know.

Like tip money from people
using the bathroom.

Like that's no way to make a
living.

You know what I mean?

That's fucking insane.

Like seeing people how they,
you know, treated animals and

how they, you know, like how
they view different, how they

like viewed women.

You know, it was like,
especially in the Middle East,

like it was like there's classes
to that shit and it was like

open, like racism, open sexism,
open classes.

I'm like fuck.

You know, like you have a long
way to go as a whole, you know,

and it really like we have our
own.

We have plenty of problems here
, but it made me really realize.

I'm like okay, like, maybe,
maybe there's a, maybe there's a

lack of like perspective here
from the rest of the world.

You know that we don't quite
have Certainly, you know and I

think that to the point to bring
that all around to the point

that I was making, is that to
you what you were talking about,

how there's definitely biases
when it comes to culturally

relevant artwork.

That's a great use case for AI.

Like, like blockchain very much
aligns with that, where you can

be anonymous, produce
culturally relevant work and

never show your face.

You know, and that could be
accepted.

Look at, you know, I know
there's it's a probably not the

best example, but like X copy,
no one knows who the fuck that

person is, you know, but he
creates culturally relevant work

.

Most people don't.

Yeah, most people don't, right.

So I bet there's a few that do
you know for sure, but I think

that's a it's a cool point to.

I guess zoom in on our double
tap is like, okay, this is how

we do it.

I think it's part of the
problem is like we don't know

how we do it.

Right now we have a lot of
people that like especially in

the bull market, you have a lot,
a lot of people that are what's

?

The analogy is like there's not
enough people like, like with

pickaxe, like there's too many
people with pickaxe.

You don't even know what I think
we're getting to.

More of the people that have
the shovels here today, you know

.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, and
I think it's interesting too.

I mean, you look at a lot of
people that are still here and

it's artists that have been
making art for a long time.

Yeah, totally, you know, I have
my friends that are still here.

I feel like everyone who has,
everyone who's been an artist,

is still here.

Some of the newer friends that
discovered art in 2021 are no

longer here, so that's, but I
feel like just, I feel like

we're just maturing perspective
in terms of what's appropriate,

and that's not to say that you
can't join the space and do it

now, but I feel like you have to
just re-prioritize certain

qualities and track records and
histories when it actually comes

to, you know, putting money
towards this, because, at the

end of the day, like you know,
it's not a collector to like

make good choices, right?

So, totally, how do you assess
these things a little bit more?

You know, soberly.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that man
, I mean, and it kind of like

reminds me of like there's a lot
of verbiage around, like right

now, where it's like people talk
about oh, you're a legend, or

like oh, this is a grail, and
like, oh, like this is like oh,

the bike you know death.

And I look at the term legend,
I think of I'm gonna say it

again like I look at Christopher
Nolan and I'm like fucking

legend right.

Sure sure, yeah, really like
earn that title, but like I feel

like even people that have been
creating for five years, that's

an we throw terms around like
that and it's like how the like

that just feels so off right now
.

Like that's one of the things
where it's just like wording is

important, how we communicate is
really important and how we

prop people up is really
important, because, like, I

think that it can be almost
damaging.

I know, one thing that I
learned as well is, like you

know, like I didn't really know
some of the reasons I was buying

art and it's like, did I really
like the art, all the art that

I bought?

Not really.

You know, there's a lot of art
that I bought that I just didn't

like, but I like was really
like I bought it because, like,

I saw a cool interaction, you
know, on Twitter I saw, but it's

like, once it was in my wall,
I'm like, you know, like yeah,

right, yeah, I do, I really do
yeah.

It's frustrating.

Yeah, fuck, man, I want to like
it.

I just don't.

And I was like I bought it for
some other reason and those

reasons vary, and so I just
think that it's.

I don't know.

I really I think we have an
identity problem when it comes

to like, or I guess our
perspective of time and like,

what we view as like legendary,
what we view as a grail, is like

really skewed right now,
because I mean, we've only been

doing like digital art has only
has, I mean it's been around for

a decent amount of time.

You know, like you, especially
if you look at like you know

gender of art.

It's been around for really
long time, but there's not many

things that like right now it's
like okay, that's a grail and

like it might be a personal
grail, like it's like it just

means so much to me that like
yeah, I don't know, man, I'm

going to give everyone the hour
and just assume they were

talking about personal grails.

Speaker 2: Yeah, totally yeah.

But now I agree with you, it's
premature, I get it, it's.

You know, people are new,
they're excited, like I get it.

They're just getting a little
carried away, you know, I feel

like it's not particularly
damaging, it's just, it's just a

little bit of like, I guess,
lack of maturity, you know.

But everyone wants to speculate,
everyone wants to kind of

figure out like who.

Everyone wants to find the next
, you know, banks.

Everybody wants to find you
know, the next basket, obviously

.

So I feel like people are,
people are speculating and doing

their best, you know, to figure
that out.

I feel like people seem to
think they can control the

narrative a little bit more than
they actually can.

You know, you can't.

One person on Twitter does not
sustain the narrative, you know

like.

So you just like the drum
beating around their bags is a

little bit much sometimes,
doesn't ultimately like sustain,

and then you're any real way,
and I don't care how big of a

collector you are doesn't,
doesn't work, you know like

ultimately it's going to be
adjudicated by somebody other

than our space here and kind of
other than by the collector as

these things age.

So I think I think it just comes
down to like understanding kind

of what makes what makes
critical art, you know, because

I feel like there's going to be
kind of two things like either

it's going to have values of
collectible right, like oh, that

was, that was and that was a
relevant NFT from the beginning

of this, and I think I think
most of the early super stuff

falls into that.

It's like cool, you're creating
some of the first work around

NFTs, like okay, cool, that's
interesting.

That's like it's like, you know
, like early baseball cards it's

not that they're particularly
interesting baseball players

it's like, oh, look at that,
like that was, that was just

early.

It's, I feel like it's
collectible value.

And I feel like, like we Mostly
the external work conflated all

the JPEG monkeys with art early
on, is like there's just all

NFTs.

Now we've I think we've done a
better job of like digital art

and like the PFP game is just
like a separate thing, nothing

wrong with it.

It's just literally like a new
gambling game that takes place

on blockchain, like go, have fun
, do your thing, like they're

just separate, right, so people
understanding that.

But I think people are not quite
to the point of kind of

Deconflating what collectible
value is versus what art value

is.

And I feel like I feel like a
lot of the stuff that is, you

know, gets like the grail, the
grail treatment for our art and

artists has to do with
collectible value, which is more

easily understood coming
outside of art, and I think the

transition will be when people
start to realize like, oh wait,

like what's like.

How do you what?

What defines like the good art?

Because I think ultimately, I
mean you see stuff like a, you

see stuff like I don't like
Sam's thing sold for like 700

yeah right, that's this really,
really that's a small amount of

money in the contemporary art
world.

There's a huge amount of money
right now for us in this space

and congrats to Sam and Rachel.

You know like that was.

You know I love to see it.

But ultimately our space is
very small compared to like what

the art world is looking at
with art and it'll be

interesting to see that
transition from like cool, this

is like the collectible stuff,
to the stuff that comes out of

the spaces.

Oh wait, that's kind of like.

That's interesting From my art
historical standpoint on the art

side, once we start getting a
little bit more adoption.

And you know Behind the scenes,
you know working on working on a

couple things to, you know,
streamline Access to digital art

for people outside of the space
, principally around not having

to convert to ETH, which for a
lot of people is a is a bit of a

deal-breaker, and then also not
having to custody your own

artwork.

So you take, you take.

You take some of those things
out of the equation for a

traditional collector and then
all of a sudden, because

everybody's interested in
finding Good art in that space,

so no one is no one's against
this because it's NFTs or

digital, everything else.

It really comes down to Will
this stuff last, durability

being a huge concern with NFTs,
like how is the NFT constructed?

You know, and I would caution
people to avoid, avoid using

Fragile internet infrastructure
with these things.

You know you see a lot of like.

You see a lot of NFTs that like
have a Mechanic or maybe uses

like an iFrame, maybe it uses,
this stuff just breaks.

You know, ultimately nobody
wants a broken NFT.

Yes, you still have the token,
but at the same time, like if

it's not working, you know you
might as well have, like, you

might as well have like dropped
the drop, the sculpture and you

like kind of glued it back
together.

It's not, it's not, you still
have it, it's still yours, but

it's also not what it used to be
.

Hmm, yeah, so I think, I think
I think it's like, I think,

basically a durability and
accessibility For people outside

of space and I think we'll
start to see.

We'll start to see a really a
really big shift.

Because if you look at the
impact digital art can have I

did street art for a long time
Again, you know, just trying to

just try to fit this hit, that
to work, bio, yeah, but it's

different.

It's different when you put
something on a wall and usually

the stuff, it takes longer.

You have to find a slightly
more remote wall because you

know it's hard to do and not get
caught.

But you look at digital art,
right, like managed to put up a

subversive piece on the largest
billboard in the middle of Hong

Kong during art week.

Thousands of people saw that,
right.

So you talk about the impact of
what digital art can do.

You look at how prevalent
Screens are.

They're only going to be more
relevant.

I don't think anyone who's
saying thinks that we will not

be spending more time on screen.

You wonder, like, how could we
spend more time on screens?

And I say we will somehow
figure out how to spend more

time on screens.

So I I feel like digital art is
going to be really impactful

and it's going to be able to
affect people's lives in a

material way, in a much more.

I think it'll be more impactful
than you can get with any

physical media from a
distribution and displaced

employee.

Like you can't.

You can't do better than
something that's digital.

I mean, people are doing shows
in New York, london, dubai, all

at the same time.

You want to put your piece on
loan.

Well, cool, like MoMA has your
piece all alone right now in the

lobby.

Like, did you have to?

Like, did you have to pack that
up and ship it across the

country?

No, does everybody know?

You own it Absolutely.

We have the blockchain.

Like everything about it's
superior, and I feel like even a

small Delta in Digital versus
physical would create a

significant wedge.

But we have a very, very
significant Delta and I think

that's gonna very quickly lead
to digital art becoming More

significant than it is now.

We caught headwinds because it
got caught up with all the

crypto crimes and we got
headwinds because the

environmental impacts, yep, but
I think that's ultimately

artificially suppressing our
market in a very, very

significant way right now.

And, as we know, like, digital
art is not SPF, digital art is

like on ETH, is, you know, we're
, we're proof of, you know,

proof of stake now.

So we all those things happen
address, but that hasn't caught

up with everybody else and as
soon as we figure out how to

just make it a little more
transparent you know, we got a

like when the internet kind of
made so web browsing simple

we're gonna see.

We're gonna see art really,
really take off and I think, I

think, you know, I think the
prices of a lot of the art Will

really reflect that.

But it's gonna be, but I think
it will be much more focused on

art versus collectibles in terms
of like value structures.

Speaker 1: So you made me think
about a lot of things there.

I mean there's a I, because I
was.

I was talking with another
artist, alamo, the other day and

it was like you know the way he
approaches, because he's he's

got a pretty strong foothold in
the traditional collective realm

, like he's been.

He's been creating art for over
a decade and it's like he's got

he was very much traditional
before he came here and he was

talking about kind of like a
through line of what you were

mentioning here is that when it
comes to like Pete, like

decoupling, like what, like what
is that we're doing versus like

the, the fine art value versus
the collectible value?

You know, one of the things
that really resonated with me is

that, like, on his tokens, he's
got like a certificate of

authenticity that he stamps
every time it's sold.

And he's like, when I removed
the word NFT and I just say this

is a, this is a way to prove
this, this is a certificate of

authenticity for the physical
work, this is just specifically

in that realm, you know, all of
a sudden the light bulb clicks,

you know, and it's like, once
people are able to Decouple,

like this isn't board a yacht
club, you know, this is this is.

This is fine.

Yeah, this is fine art.

I think there's a, there's a lot
of, there's a lot of benefits

to that.

But just kind of going on the
more through line of just purely

digital work, it's like, yeah,
like we're seeing it in Korean

blockchain week as well.

It's like Jake Fried's piece up
on a big billboard you know

Alan's works, I'm on a big-ass
billboard.

Even people that make
traditional, like physical work.

The digital realm adds the
distribution layer to it.

I think it's just something
really special.

And, yeah, the it's really
frustrating to like see like

what gets covered in the media
versus like what, like kind of

like you and me are like at the
core of like what's like what's

really being built.

Yeah, it's really frustrating
because, like you zoom out three

to four layers.

That's not what's being talked
about, you know it's, it's

incredibly frustrating.

You know to like see that.

Speaker 2: It's all.

It's good, though I'm, you know
, like, it gives us some, it

gives us a bigger window right
now.

Yeah, because the you know
people talk about acts.

One of the biggest advantages
of having was you just grinding

out a bunch of work so, like,
when the Market picked up, he

already had hundreds of pieces
of work.

He already had hundreds of
pieces out there, right?

So this is a really good time
to build a collector base.

Get work out there, find your
people like, establish the

foundation because, like we
talked about, the trajectory of

the promise of our space is
incredible, and I'm very

optimistic about where we can go
as a digital art movement, but

that's also why I care so much
about Making sure, in order to

the best of my abilities, that
we're talking about the things

we need to talk about, that
we're addressing Accessibility,

we're addressing inclusivity,
we're addressing discoverability

.

You know, if we lose sight, if
we lose sight of what makes this

art movement special, which is,
in my opinion, the fact that we

can be accessible and inclusive
and just Incorporate so many

artists from around the world in
a meaningful way, you know,

along with collectors, like
that's, that's the base of all

of this, and we just actually
like we just need to do

everything we can to support
that vision of this world,

because ultimately we will get
there.

It's just gonna be a matter of
like how?

How strong are we when we do?

And I feel like there's I don't
know if there's a there's a lot

of stuff going on that I feel
like we need to address them.

I feel, like you just kind of
which side I don't have to be

cognizant of how important it is
to do this right so we achieve

the levels that we can.

I think we can achieve a very
high level, but I do think it

takes a lot of work and you know
you can't Just be selling your

work and vanishing.

I feel like there's that there's
there's an element of being a

builder and a contributor and a
community member and, you know,

helping lift up other artists
together.

I think that makes this actually
work.

You know, and that's again like
you know, I reached out to

every shot to number of artists
last month to commit to buying

work from submissions from their
peers and I was just, you know,

it was just stunned and happy.

That means so many people just
said yes, immediately, it was,

it wasn't a question for them,
it was like hey, you know, the

ask was like hey, doing this
thing, you know, and most people

had heard about at that point,
like hey, would you, you know,

would love, I think it'd mean a
lot if you were able to

contribute, you know, an ease to
buying work from your peers.

And every artist on list was
like yeah, of course,

immediately done, like let's do
it.

And you know a couple, like you
know, you know, you know Djam

pain and Cardinal and you know
Chaka have gone way over that

you know.

So you know it's, it's cool to,
it's just it's cool to see.

It's cool to see artists
supporting artists because, you

know, I feel like that's, that's
one of the ways that we support

the, support the artists at the
margins of the space and Keep,

keep, keep, keep growing,
because we ultimately have to

keep growing totally totally.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the kind
of like the way you just put

that where it's just it's like,
it's like this whole movement is

one big, it's like one big
startup.

You know it's like there's a it
kind of is like on you and like

that's what been.

One of the things I've learned
is that, you know, switching

from like an individual
contributor mindset to like a

founders mindset or like to, to
a minute like, to a like a yeah,

like a like a deep or like a
deeper thinker in a

participatory mindset has been
one of the things that like,

that's like at least what's
helped me and like able to like

frame, like, okay, how do I want
to like, how do I want to move

here?

You know how do I want to
impact, how do I want to like

leave my mark for not only my
craft but like for like what I

think this space needs.

It's like literally the reason
I started this podcast.

In the beginning I came in for
most of the collectible things.

I came in during the Beeple
sale.

You know I spent like four
months before I, you know,

bought an NFT because I wanted
to like really, at least not as

a Coder level, but like, just
like, at least I wanted to at

least understand what the fuck
was happening.

When I clicked by, you know,
like I wanted to be able to like

conceptually think about that
and explain it to people.

But once I interviewed the
first, like my first artist, it

was like wait, who else is doing
this?

And at the time it was like I
think Roger Dickman was doing

that back in that time I know
NorCal had just started, but the

the only like major one we were
all kind of getting our feet

wet, but the only major one was
Kevin Rose.

You know it was like the only I
I'm sure there was more and

like I'm sure there's more that
I that I missed, but I was still

very new and it's like that was
the only major you know person

that was like really lifting up
a lot of artists and it was like

, well, cool, like this is a
great way to do.

I don't know the fuck I'm
talking about, but like this is

like a great way to like Meet
new people and also put stories

up that hadn't really been told
before and to show the promise

of like what this can be.

And I think, talking with you
just now, it's like it kind of

feels good to like, like to like
tap back into that, that

optimism that I came in here
with, because, like, I think

it's really easy to get jaded,
like it's so easy to like look

at what's happening and like Not
couple it with FTX, or like not

couple it with, like all the
regular to our regulatory shit

that's happening, and not like
couple it with the narratives.

And it's like let's get back to
like what, what it was that

brought me here, like what was
it that was attractive?

Because, like, I'm either here
because I'm an idiot or, like on

the psychopath, you know Gonna
be all the things yeah.

We all the things, man.

Yeah, so it's, it's been really
fun to like, I guess, retap

back into some of that energy,
because there is, you're right,

there is there is a lot of
promise, you know, and I think

that it's really interesting to
like.

It's like, how strong is that
promise?

Can it can it like confront all
these headwinds?

Can it make it through a lot of
the fud that's happening?

Can it like Can we keep it
going long enough to where the

story eventually catches up with
everyone else?

You know, like, why the fuck
this is so important, and I

think it will, you know.

But I Just want to say thank
you, man.

Like it's been, it's been fun
to like, like tap back into that

cuz, like, oh, I'm happy to.

Speaker 2: I Love talking to
them.

I really love talking with you
too.

I mean you, you, you have a
really good perspective on this

and obviously you spend a lot of
time thinking about it and it's

always, it's always good.

So it's great and refreshing to
like talk to people in the

space that you feel have spent a
long time Thinking about the

space.

Because, like you said, I feel
like you're.

I feel like your analogies to
kind of the sparta are

particularly apt.

It's not.

This is.

It's not.

It's not an individual endeavor.

It can be if you just want to
Tap in, make a buck and leave,

but if you actually want this
thing to work, it does take.

It does take being a part of
the community.

It does take doing work like
you're doing with the podcast,

right, I mean like Just doing
the work to make the space

better.

That you may not necessarily
get the biggest paycheck for

right, right like you just have,
but someone has to.

Like you know, I host a host of
thing here and every Thursday in

LA and half since June of 2021
with Beacon Bot, oh well, we

have a.

We have a.

We have a great community here
in Venice, but you know, they

just it's just one of these
things is like somebody has to

do it, but everyone likes it,
but someone actually just has to

do it.

And so for you to do the
podcast, you know, we talk about

needing to highlight artists,
needing to talk about the

stories, needing to help
contextualize the space, like

this is, this is how we do it.

It's by people doing like what
you're doing and actually just

doing it, and the sum total of
that means that we're going in

the right direction, but, again,
like someone has to do it.

So, you know, let's we say hey,
you know, can you help my

podcast?

Of course, you know, I think
what you're doing is really

important and I think you're
doing it really well, and you

know it's been a pleasure to be
here with you and I just, you

know, want to say how much I
appreciate, you know worth that

you're going into this.

Speaker 1: Thanks, man.

I yeah, it means a lot.

It's.

It was a long time of Wondering
whether what I was doing was

right before I came in here.

Like I was in the eSports realm
before I came here.

It was kind of the same mission
, but just in eSports.

It's like how do we make
eSports cool, you know?

Because it was still very much
like look down upon it, still

very much made fun of in a lot
of circles and it's like how do

we make this ever?

Because the point is like I
don't care who you are, everyone

loves video games.

Like, whether you admit it or
not, like video, you're just

fine man.

Speaker 2: I'm with you.

I'm with you.

Speaker 1: So it's like, how do
we like make this like really

big?

How do we make this accessible?

How do we like because there's
so much more than just being a

pro gamer, it's like, well, what
if you want to like?

What if you're a, you work
production?

Like what if you're like a
production manager for a studio?

And it's like you want to do
something and you love video

games?

Well, there's a role for you
there.

There's like putting on, like
event management.

There's analysts, there's
casters, there's players,

there's coaches, there's
founders.

There's like literally every,
every imaginable possibility.

Uh, literally a role for
everything that can be done in a

normal business in eSports.

Um, but I think when I found
this space, it was like fuck, I

feel like I tapped into
something, not that that's not

important, but it feels like
this yeah, found me for the

future of my original like idea.

It's amazing.

Esports will be involved.

Art will be involved.

Yeah, you know like mundane
shit, like I feel like you know

like deeds or like identity that
will be involved.

It's like it feels like this is
a foundation for all the things

that we do as humans, if it's
done right.

Um, and I think art leads the
way, man.

That's one thing I've learned.

It's one thing I didn't know
about before, but it's like

artists are always trying new
shit.

They're always like on the
fringes of things.

They're always like figuring
out what can be done better, um,

and what.

How can technology be used?

Um to make something to tell
the story better?

And it's like, holy fuck man,
if this is, if you look at it,

really left curve, wherever the
artist are, as wherever the

innovation is.

You know, um, like it's pretty
simple at this point, like I

mean, I have a lot of experience
to help me come to that

conclusion and to help you know,
but it's, it's so obvious now,

like it's just so fucking
obvious, um, and I couldn't be

more proud to be doing this, man
, because it's like, like, I

consider it like myself.

I'm like, like, especially
emotionally, like I'm incredibly

sensitive, I'm incredibly
vulnerable, like I and I'm just

like, fuck man, like that was
like what made me click with

artists.

I'm like these are the same
people as me.

I love it.

I love it.

We make different ways, but it's
like, at the core, human.

We look beyond the output.

Where it comes from is all the
same, you know, um, and it's

just a treat, dude.

So, um, yeah, man, I don't
typically have a way to wrap

this up except to like say like,
where can people find you?

If you want, if you want people
like scope you out, like where

do you want people to go?

Um, is there anything that
you're currently working on that

you can share publicly?

This would probably be out in
like a month, yeah, months Like

that.

Um, but yeah, just want to like
give you an opportunity to like

share some of that if you want
to.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, first of
all, just again just want to say

thank you.

It's been obviously such a
pleasure to uh to chat with you,

um and uh, yeah, I know just um
, you know working on, working

on developing for four Um, so
it's going to be.

I'm excited excited about what
the next uh iterations will be

for it.

Um, I just want to, I just want
to, I just want to see artists

be able to be discovered and
kind of an equal opportunity to

be seen.

Um, it's, yeah, I feel like, I
feel like our space grows if

artists feel like they're
getting a fair shot at the an

artist making a career.

Um, but that's it.

You know, I'm just, I'm excited
about the space and I think we

have so much promise, um, but it
does take a lot of work and it

does take people to sacrifice
and, you know, their time to

make this place better for
everybody, Like you are with

your podcast, and this is, this
is one of the things that makes

this the work for everybody.

You know, I just thank you for
that and, uh, you know, excited,

excited for what's to come.

So, again, thank you.

Speaker 1: Hell yeah, dude,
appreciate you, patrick.

Yeah, of course, of course.

Thank you for listening to the
Schiller Curated Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember, if

you're looking for it, art is
everywhere and it's up to us to

appreciate and explore the
emotions it brings to our lives.

Until next time, this is Boone
signing off.