Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to Vaulted, a

Web3 podcast series from the
Schiller Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on April 11th 2022 and

features Killian Moore, a
lens-based artist who's known

for his breathtaking aerial
shots of New York City.

In this episode, we discussed
Killian's early roots of finding

a camera through sobriety, the
fine details of how to get the

perfect shot, pricing theory and
so much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
investment advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed With.

That being said, let's dive in
and hear more with Killian.

["gam"].

Gm.

And is it Killian?

Is it?

Did I say that right?

Speaker 2: You did GM.

Man, how's it going?

Speaker 1: It's going well.

I appreciate you meeting him.

You know sometimes I do these
interviews during the day, but

the ones I do at night are
always a lot.

It's just a lot more relaxed.

I don't have anything scheduled
after this, I don't have like

there's no time crunch, so these
are always a lot of fun man,

just no distractions being
pulled elsewhere.

Speaker 2: yeah.

Speaker 1: That's right.

That's right, man.

No, this is fun.

I just actually got done
watching.

I'm not sure if you're a fan,
obviously I am, but Halo just

released their like a new series
on Paramount Plus and I just

got done watching that, like
probably minutes before we

hopped on.

That's why I was late actually.

So ["GAM"] ["GAM"].

Speaker 2: I appreciate your
honesty.

["gam"].

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it's.

You know, the game made my
childhood, you know, so it's

important, but I appreciate your
patience, man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not a big
gamer.

I'm not a big gamer, but I know
Halo and for some reason my

nine-year-old son knows Halo and
it's kind of obsessed with me

dressed up as Halo last year as
one of the characters, last year

for Halloween.

I don't know where he got the
idea from, but he saw the

trailer, for he saw the trailer
for the TV shows like Dad, can

we watch this?

No idea if it's suitable for a
nine-year-old or not.

I gotta do some research first.

["gam"].

Speaker 1: I'll tell you the
first two episodes.

It's from what I can tell.

It's suitable.

Again, I'm not gonna tell you
how to do your job as a parent.

That's the last thing I wanna
do, but I think it's pretty mild

when it comes to everything
else that's out, they're trying

to captivate a pre.

They're trying to throw the net
really wide with this.

They're not actually basing it
off the game, or they're basing

it off the game but they're not
basing it off of actual stories

in the game, but they're just
taking the foundation and

spinning off and doing their own
thing.

So, as a diehard, it's very
interesting because, of course,

I've played all the games
multiple times and you have an

expectation ["GAM"].

But yeah, man, gillian, I wanna
Again, as I said offline, I

wanna thank you again for coming
on here, man.

I've been an admirer of your
work for a long time and love

your interactions on Twitter.

I love what you do and I really
just wanted to get to know a

little bit more about you, and
so, for those who are listening

who don't know who you are, man,
just give a brief introduction.

Who are you, man?

What do you do?

Speaker 2: I'm Killian Moore.

That's my handle across
Instagram.

Twitter.

I'm Killian Moore underscore
Because I can't get Killian

Moore because some girl in
Nevada has it.

I don't know, but I was born in
Ireland and I moved to New York

18 years ago.

I picked up a camera about six
years ago, six and a half years

ago, and I just started taking
pictures in New York City and I

just saw the city in a new light
and I just started posting on

Instagram, met some awesome
people, learned a bunch about

photography and just like to
take the grand shots in New York

City to make people who have
lived here homesick and make

people wanna come with it,
because it's an awesome,

concrete jungle.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm telling you
coming from.

I'll tell you I grew up in
Houston, houston, texas, and

it's got a we have a decent
skyline.

But then once I went to New
York and I rode across the

Staten Island Ferry with my
buddy I saw it made Houston's

got a very impressive skyline in
my opinion, but that skyline in

Manhattan made it look like
chum change.

Speaker 2: It's something
special, it really is.

And especially you took the
Staten Island Ferry.

Can you imagine the immigrants
coming in in the 1840s, the

1800s, and seeing Manhattan for
the first time?

It's nothing like they had ever
experienced.

And that's the feeling I get
when I see it from the air or

from the boats, because it's
just, it's awe-inspiring, it's

something.

It's something for a person
grown up on Ireland.

It's something that we only
ever saw on the television and

it was like that magical land in
America.

So it's just a very enticing
and special place.

Speaker 1: It really is, man,
and I'll tell you the Just a

limited exposure I've had to the
city.

I mean there's also an energy
that I felt Like just walking

through the street.

You know that I've never felt
anything like that before, you

know, it's just it's moving at
such a fast pace and when I

heard in the songs like the city
never sleeps, I was like okay,

it's like bullshit, but like
You're like driving down at 2 am

and it is jam-packed, I'm like
what the fuck man?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember when
I first moved here, I was drunk

one night and I was lying in
bed.

I was like you know what they
say?

This is the city that never
sleeps.

And I got up at like 1 am and I
got the subway into Times

Square and there was people
everywhere.

I'm like what the fuck is this?

I'm like seriously, who are all
you people?

I'm like I'm one of these
people who are all you people in

the middle of Times Square when
I am in the ball.

It's crazy.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and my friend,
when I first went there, man, he

was like during the day there's
a subway every two minutes, and

then after 2 am it slows down
to every eight minutes.

I'm like are you serious?

Speaker 2: Every eight minutes,
You're lucky.

What?

Eight minutes now is probably
more like 20 to 35 minutes every

.

That's what it is at that on
the off-peak hours.

Speaker 1: That's insane, man.

But, and even especially
because, like growing up in

Texas, I like you know like
Texas is, you know, at sea level

, so we don't have anything
underground here.

So like literally just driving
underneath, like going from New

Jersey to New York and driving
under the Hudson, that is like

one of the coolest experiences
for president.

It's wild, isn't it?

It's wild.

Speaker 2: It's like I'm
underneath the Hudson River

right now.

Speaker 1: It defies logic of
like what you think is actually

possible to, like how you
traverse this earth.

It just nothing makes sense.

I'm not a physicist, I'm not a
engineer.

I don't know how any of that
works, but it's really fun.

I felt like a three-year-old
every time I drove through that

tunnel.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's crazy and
the Hudson is huge Like you

don't really get a sense of it
by looking at pictures, but it

is massive.

I remember when I first moved,
my wife she was my girlfriend at

the time was in college of
state New York and I would take

the train up on the weekends to
visit and I would follow the

path of the Hudson all the way
up to upstate New York and you

get about an hour out of the
city and the Hudson's frozen,

like frozen solid, Wow, and you
just see this massive body of

water.

It's a river, it's moving water
, it's like it's frozen and it's

just holy shit.

This is something wild.

Speaker 1: Dude, I, yeah,
there's probably and we're

probably gonna talk a lot about
this because, like you know, you

have some incredible shots and
again, the reason why you do

this like to make New York
people homesick and to make

people wanna come you're doing
your job as a non.

Speaker 2: New.

Speaker 1: Yorker man, I'm all
inspired every time.

I wanna go to like when you
moved from Ireland.

Like what sparked the move over
to the States.

Like was it like?

And you said you moved with
your girlfriend at the time.

Like what prompted the move to
like come over here.

Speaker 2: Well, I actually.

She is a New Yorker born and
bred and I remember she was

doing her semester abroad and
she was traveling around Ireland

and I was on a drinking
vacation with one of my buddies

and we met these two American
girls on a tiny island off the

coast of Ireland Ireland as
small as it is, but we met on

the Inishmore, which is this
tiny, tiny island you could

probably walk around in about 45
minutes and I met her.

She kinda visited me in Dublin.

She was studying in Edinburgh
in Scotland, so I flew there and

she flew to me and then she
flew back here and that was like

this she came back for
Christmas, in a January.

So I said, hey, do you wanna
come visit?

I was like hell, yeah, I wanna
come visit.

So I booked a three month ticket
and I came over here and I just

basically partied on vacation
for three months and, being from

Ireland, you can come to the
States on a 90 day visa waiver,

so you don't need to apply for a
visa, it's just kinda given to

you.

So I came, I went back to
Ireland on the 89th day.

I was home in Ireland for two
weeks and I was like I gotta get

back to New York because it
just even in that short period

of time, those 89 days, it
became part of me and it was

just I knew the minute I landed
that this, this, is where I

wanted to be.

So I was back in Ireland for
maybe I don't know two, two and

a half months, worked, saved up
some money, and then I moved

back to New York and I've been
here ever since.

That was June 2004.

Speaker 1: That's amazing, man.

I love stories like that.

I have a friend who made it in
the traditional art scene.

Does has his own art exhibition
, his own gallery, does a lot of

psychedelic painting, like went
and painted with Alex Gray at

the House of Sacred Mirrors or
the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors and

he had a story like where cause
he?

It's really hard to make it as
an artist, even like Web 3 makes

it a lot.

I'm speaking for not myself,
but like from what I see, it's a

lot easier than it's still not
easy, but it's easier.

But what he did was there's
more opportunities, there's more

opportunities.

That's what I'm looking for,
man.

So what he did was he actually
saved up enough money for a

one-way cruise ticket, like out
of country I don't even know

where he went and he basically,
when he got on the cruise he

painted a one-of-one piece, sold
it for like $15,000.

And, like that, bought his
ticket back.

And that's how he got his career
and that's how he started,

cause the kid was like out
drawing art teachers in like

fourth grade, like the kid just
raw talent unlike anything else

I'd ever seen before, and just
to see him like do some random

shit like that just brought a
big smile to my face.

Cause that's what you expect.

Speaker 2: That's brilliant.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man.

So when you went let's rewind a
little bit before, man, when

you were in Ireland, you
mentioned the very beginning.

You're like you picked up a
camera and you started taking

pictures and like that was kind
of like you fell in love with it

.

What were you doing before that
?

Speaker 2: I had many hobbies.

I wasn't.

The reason I picked up a camera
was because I got sober.

I quit drinking.

My hobbies before that was beer
making.

I did all sorts of things, but
I needed something to fill the

void of not making beer and
drinking beer.

So I had a friend who had
gotten a camera and he's like

why don't you get a camera and
just walk around the city with

me?

And I was like you know what?

Why not?

I got me a camera for my
birthday.

And then it was a spiraling
downhill, massive investment.

After that she's like I just
get you a camera, that's all you

need, and there's a tripod, and
then there's the bag and

filters.

So she didn't know what kind of
work she was opening.

But in Ireland I left high
school and I knew I didn't want

to go to college, so I became an
electrician.

I always wanted to work with my
hands.

I'm good with my hands.

So I trained and qualified as
an electrician in Ireland and

then, when I moved to the States
, that's what I did for eight

years, seven years I continued
working in the trade and then in

2011, I worked slow down.

The economy went bad.

Now we were doing high end
renovations on just Avenue, park

Avenue like multi, multi
million dollar renovations, and

when the economy is not good,
those people aren't renovating

their apartments.

So work got quiet.

I was working 48 hours a week
here, 20 hours a week there, and

you can't pay bills like that.

And in New York yeah, exactly
In New York it's kind of like a

joke that the Irish Matthews are
like the building

superintendents, the resident
managers.

So I had worked in enough
buildings that I knew super is

around the place and I called a
few of them up and I said get me

a job in a building.

So I got a job in a building as
a handyman and then the

opportunity came up that I
actually became the resident

manager of the building I was
working in.

So I've been doing that since
2016.

Speaker 1: Sam man.

So you're still doing that now,
correct I?

Speaker 2: still yeah, that's my
nine to five, bit more than a

nine to five, but that's what I
do.

That's what pays the bills.

Speaker 1: That's insane, man,
and I mean so when it comes to

like that whole industry, like
working with the hands, being

electrician, does that?

Has there been anything that
like in that industry that, like

, you've like learned or that
you've been able to take over to

your craft of photography?

Like has there been any lessons
learned or any like concepts or

anything that you've done that
has, like, inspired any of your

work?

Speaker 2: It's following
processes.

I think it's true in a lot of
things that we do in life that

once you get the basic steps and
you know the flow of things

like when you wire a house
there's certain ways that you

start wiring a house.

You got to drill holes to get
the cables through and then you

build the cables.

When you take a picture, you
have to get to the location, you

have to find your composition
set up, so like there's certain

just knowing your checklists,
basically, and being able to

work through processes and I was
always good at that.

I'm all.

I'm a very logical and
methodical person Got it, at

least I think I am.

If you ask me why, I should
probably say I'm very illogical,

but I always liked that.

I always appreciated art, but I
wasn't really big, I didn't

excel in art in school or
anything like that, but I always

appreciated it.

One of my best friends, dad's,
was our teacher when we were in

third grade and he was a
fantastic artist and he spent a

lot of time doing art with us in
the class, which is when you're

in third grade.

It's awesome because you don't
want to do anything else, and

when you have a teacher that
just wants to like play guitar

and draw and do a cartoon, make
comic books with you.

That's awesome.

So I always appreciated art.

I enjoy going to museums, but I
never did anything really artsy

before I picked up a camera.

Speaker 1: Interesting man.

I think that's really cool and
I'll tell you, like I, even

before the space, like before
the space, I really didn't

appreciate the level, like the
gravity or the situation that

photographers went through or
the process that they did to

like get the shots that they did
.

Like, you know, web two, a lot
of things were taken for granted

, you know.

Like it was like we got
speaking for myself like it gets

spoiled with Instagram, you get
spoiled with magazines, you get

spoiled with all these just
breathtaking shots, and it was.

It wasn't until I started
interviewing photographers and

started coming into the web
three space that I started

realizing like how much
opportunity here there actually

was and how incredible like the
actual process actually is to

produce the work that you all do
, you know, and so I think one

of the ones that first inspired
me was like was definitely like

Kath, you know.

I mean just like I was
mesmerized by her blue and I'm

like how the fuck do you do?

Speaker 2: that?

What do you mean?

Her dedication is something
else like going out hiking on

your own back in nowhere in
Canada or Patagonia for days on

end.

It's fucking psycho.

That's next level shit right
there.

That really is.

But like that's, there's people
.

Because everybody now has a
camera on their phone, everyone

thinks that taking a picture is
easy.

And then you have the Instagram
filters that you can just throw

on top of your iPhone picture
to make it, to jazz it up a

little bit, so everyone thinks
they're a photographer.

But when you actually break it
down and you look at how you, as

you said, as you go, how you go
about getting shots, it's a lot

more involved.

And then, depending on the type
of photography you're doing,

like I've, I started doing city
street shots and then I

progressed into helicopters and
then I progressed into

astrophotography and like lining
up the sun and the moon with

certain landmarks in New York
City.

So when you get into that type
of thing, you're talking like

you're talking hours and hours
of planning.

When you're doing lunar and
solar alignments, you only have

minutes to shoot them, because
you don't realize this until you

start doing it, that the moon
and the sun move quite quick.

Notice you just see it above
our head for hours on end, but

when it's rising or when it's
setting, it actually moves

really, really quick.

So you need to be in place, you
need to be focused, your gear

needs to be set up right and you
need to have your settings down

, because if you don't, you're
going to miss the shot.

You maybe have 10 or 15 minutes
to get those shots, wow.

And then when you're doing I do
deep space, astral as well.

So then you're photographing
galaxies and nebula and you're

talking hours and hours and
hours and hours of integration

which integration is a fancy
word of you're taking pictures

for hours and hours and hours
and hours.

Got it, got it.

And then you have to get all
that raw data and you have to

process it.

And, depending on the type of
photography that you're doing,

if you're doing narrow bands,
you're shooting in three

different filters.

So you're shooting hydrogen,
alpha sulfur two and oxygen tree

and you got to take those tree
channels and combine them to

make a color picture, because on
their own they're just

monochrome pictures.

Wow.

Speaker 1: Okay, so you like,
you take those with, like,

different filters Just forgive,
forgive, I saw your face there.

Yeah, so you take, you take a
picture, you replace the filter,

you take it again and then you
do it again.

Speaker 2: Well, basically what
you do is you shoot, so you plan

it out and hydrogen alpha you
can shoot basically anytime when

if there's a moon or no moon,
because there's so much HA in

the air that it's the camera and
the filter just soaks up that

data.

Oxygen and sulfur are a lot
more sensitive to light and

they're better to be shot when
there's no moon or there's no

light pollution around.

So basically, you plan your
your shoots out, that you'll

shoot hydrogen alpha for two
nights, then you'll shoot sulfur

for two nights and then you'll
shoot oxygen for two nights.

So you do a run on each filter
for X amount of time depending

on the target and depending on
how much integration time you

want to get the shot.

The more, the more time you
spend on a target, the more

information you're collecting,
the more light you're capturing

and the more detail that you'll
have in your end shot.

Speaker 1: That's insane.

I had yeah, I had no clue.

I got it like that.

That's actually really cool.

So, when it comes to when it
comes to your shots, like you

know, when you do all that, like
how much you so there's I'm

trying to break down this
process here.

That's the whole goal.

Is that, yeah, there's all this
planning and then you, you get

the shots.

How much time do you spend on
editing?

Like, is it because I know some
photographers like spend yeah

yeah.

Speaker 2: Astrophotography is
hours.

So, yeah, I think the most I've
spent on astrophotography

post-processing is about 14 and
a half 15 hours.

That's that's, and a good chunk
of that time is just your

computer processing and
compiling.

You're stacking all of the
pictures on top of each other

because you're taking three or
five minute or eight minute

exposures at a time, right?

So you're taking one photograph
for eight minutes and then you

take another picture for eight
minutes and then another picture

for eight minutes and then you
put them into a software and it

stacks them all on top of each
other, so it's putting all that

data on top on top of.

So you're layering all that
data on top of each other.

Speaker 1: And how big is each
of those files?

Like I'm going to get real I'm
I'm getting a little nerdy here,

but like when it comes, like
like an eight minute shot, just

for an example.

Speaker 2: Oh, honestly, I don't
know off top of my head, okay,

I I honestly don't know off top
of my head, okay, I don't

remember.

It's been about a year since
I've shot Astro and so I don't

remember.

It's been a while since I've
gone through that process.

Speaker 1: So I, because I've
seen, like I see more, like you

know, new York photography and
and more city photography.

Like what do you have?

Have you like minted any like?

Have you minted any of the the?

Speaker 2: I haven't done any.

I haven't done any nebulous
stuff yet that will.

That is a collection because,
see, this is a problem that I

have on myself is that I don't
think I'm a very good

photographer.

Speaker 1: Okay, Well so.

Speaker 2: So I don't think I'm
a very good astro photographer

either, because there's people
out there, and even regular

photographers, people out there
that I look up to or that I

aspire to be or I would like.

I like their style.

I think they're much better
photographers than I am and the

astro is so technical and it's
just.

It scares me to put those
pictures on the blockchain just

now because I don't know if
they're.

I don't feel they're up to par,
even though I think they're

spectacular images.

I just it's.

It's a barrier that I have to
get over myself.

Speaker 1: I'm telling you, man,
that it's like, even as a, even

as someone who talks for a
living, I mean it's the same,

it's the same imposter, it's the
same imposter syndrome, it's

the same, it's it's the same
barriers, you know, I mean even

with my like, even with my
manager today, like there's,

even at this new job, which is a
great opportunity, you know,

he's just like, dude, you just
need to get the fuck out of your

own way.

Like you're gonna, like, you're
gonna crush it here and I'm

excited to do that and I'm here
to support you in that.

But like you have, you are, you
are so in your way.

It's ridiculous.

So it is part of the part of
the human condition, man, you

know.

So give yourself a break.

Speaker 2: We're always our
we're always our own worst

critics.

No matter what we do, we are
always our harshest critics to

ourselves.

Speaker 1: And it's funny, we're
always the last person to find

our potential you know what I
mean.

Like, like I tweeted that out
yesterday, it was actually a

direct result of that meeting
that I had.

It was that you know there's so
many people that will see your

potential like sometimes years
before you.

Well, I mean, it's until you
finally wake up to it.

You actually need a lot of
people to keep pushing you in

that direction because they
actually see the potential there

.

Speaker 2: When you frustrate
the hell out of them for all

that time until you find the
potential Cause, it's like, just

get it, will you just do it?

And then, when you, when you
finally do it, they're so happy

for you.

Speaker 1: So that's right, man.

It's a, it's a cool journey,
man.

So you know, you and me share
we share that human condition,

man.

But when I want to, I want to
go back to some of these like,

some of these like aerial shots,
you know, I guess, from like

what, when you go through your
process, when you go through

this planning stage, like, do
you have an idea of what you

want to shoot before you do it,
or is this just like, how does

that even work, cause, like you
have all this hours of planning

but you haven't been to that
spot before?

How do you draw inspiration for
these shots?

Speaker 2: So aerial photography
, it's fantastic, but the first

two times you get up there,
you're just like a machine

gunner and you're just.

You're literally just they call
it sprain and praying.

And because you're so, the
adrenaline kicks in.

Because you're in a helicopter
above the city with no doors, on

the wind is in your face and
the pilots doing these crazy

banks like you're leaning out,
decided a helicopter, so like,

your adrenaline is on On 11 and
you're just spraying.

And you come home and if you
get one shot out of it, you're

lucky because you've, you're not
paying attention to what you're

doing, you're not focusing on
the task in hand.

I'm not it.

And but after the first two
times you're up there, you know

that you need to have your shots
, that you, your, your must have

shots before you go Right so
you always go up at it four,

five, six, seven, whatever it
may be that I need to get these

shots today, and those shots
could depend on what time of day

you're flying up, what altitude
you're flying up.

Sunrise and sunset are
different because the lights

lower.

When you're flying low over the
city, you need a wider angle

lens Because you're you're
closer than when you're flying

high altitude.

You're fine, like 5,500 or
6,000 feet, got it?

So, depending on the flight
that you're planning and you

prep your gear and then you go
in with your your wanted shot

lists and you make sure that you
execute those shots and then

anything else you get on top of
that is gravy, got it?

I'm lucky to have met a mentor
of mine, paul cybergs, beholding

I Fantastic human being and an
amazing aerial photographer, so

I got a lot of inspiration for
him even before I met him in

real life.

He's since become one of my
best friends.

He's an amazing dude and his
work was a big inspiration to me

, and seeing what he did and
angles can gave me a sense of

what I wanted to achieve when I
got up there.

I'm sick man but the area that,
like there's, there's a handful

of diehard aerial photographers
in New York City and we all, we

all know each other, we all talk
to each other and we all draw

inspiration from each other.

Because I told off shots and
Paul's like I've been trying to

do that for two years.

How the fuck did you do it?

I said because I was ready,
because I had planned it ahead

of time.

That's right, so the aerial
work is fantastic, it's just

it's a trip being above the
above the city.

Anytime you get into a
helicopter and you're above the

city, it's special, and I
particularly like sunrises

because it's you and the people
in the helicopter Watching the

sunrise over the city and
watching the city wake up and

start its day.

It's like you have birds eye
view on a metropolis Starting

its day and that, to me, is
special, and just the way the

light hits the building in those
early morning hours.

It's, it's, it's.

I think it's my favorite time
to fly.

Speaker 1: I can tell man
because, like that, actually

when you, when you describe it
like that, it gave me chills,

like I got chills like about two
or three times when you, when

you said that.

Because, like that, even even
when I get up early enough which

hasn't been lately to walk my
dog before the sun rises, or

when I get up out of bed before
the sun rises, like it, there's,

I think there's something
really special about they're

just being a lot of silent,
still, energy, um, in the earth

and like Slowly feeling it rise.

But that's part of the reason
why I'm also a night owl, is

that, like, even when I take
walks at night, there's just

something very soothing and very
calming about Everything just

being silent.

You know, everything's sleeping
, there's no, there's nothing

happening and pure stillness.

Speaker 2: Um, it's like you
have this city or your

neighborhood or wherever it may
be, to yourself.

Yeah, it's like escaping to the
woods, but you're really in the

middle of a city.

It's like it.

Speaker 1: I love that special.

I love that man.

It was I also the same feeling
when, because I used to live in,

I used to live in colorado and
I used to work, um, I used to

work on the mountains.

I used to just like be a ski
bum and you know, basically

Basically live poorly but I rode
.

I rode like a king because we
got like a, we got the highest

level ski pass.

But we also got paid.

You know, $12 an hour, which
Isn't terrible.

It's above minimum wage.

But when you're living in aspen
, colorado, that is minimum wage

.

You know, um, it's all relative
, but you know there was nothing

, there was nothing more freeing
.

Then, waking up at the you at
the butt crack of dawn on a day

off and like being able to have
the entire mountain to yourself

on like a Tuesday, during non
peak season you know Aspen's

already less crowded just
because it's always been more

expensive.

So even during peak season it
wasn't that bad, like even

during the holidays.

But like, get to the off season
, man, oh, nothing better than

that man, nothing better.

Speaker 2: It's like your own
private mountain.

Speaker 1: Yeah, if you
literally feel like you have an

entire mountain to yourself.

Um, yeah, those moments are
special.

I really are man and I think
you like, I think you know I

know this is only going to be
recording on audio, but just for

you, just for our sakes, here,
while we're you know, while

we're Um here, man, I think this
shot that you did, the want the

money shot owned by, like guy
norcal Um, yeah, that was, that

was a special norcal guy.

Yeah, yeah, that's walk me
through a little bit of that

shot, man, like just Whatever
comes to mind, like free, like

freestyle it.

Speaker 2: Well, it's just, it's
the, it's this.

We got really lucky with the
clouds and the, the color in the

sky that morning.

Um, because you never know what
you're going to get, especially

like sunrise, sunset, you're,
you're relying on there to be a

shelf of clouds and then there
to be a gap in that shelf of

clouds on the horizon for the
sun to be able to peak, true,

and light up underneath that
shelf, and that's what you're

seeing in that picture.

Um, it said there was enough
and there was enough break in

the clouds that the sun could
actually Underlight.

Those got underlight, those
clouds.

And that money shot, that's like
a cokey cutter shot on a tour.

Everybody wants to get that
shot because, bad ass, it's like

you get, you get the whole
island of Manhattan in this, and

so that's a shot.

Everyone wants but to be able
to pull it off and to get it

with Sky like that.

That that was.

That was really, really special
.

And I think that's that's
really.

I mean, in all the flights that
I've done over the last five

years, that's the only one when
I've had a burner.

When we're doing the money shot
and yeah, that's that.

That one is special.

Speaker 1: It really is, man.

I mean, because that, yeah, I
mean into, and I know you said

you do a lot of editing, but
that how much of that is natural

?

Like, is that mostly natural,
that color?

Speaker 2: is natural.

So, like my astro shots are
heavily processed because they

have to be my right, right, my
aerial and regular Photography

is not heavily processed.

I'm not one of these people
that spends three or four hours

dodging and burning or yeah, I'm
doing that type of stuff.

So like, maybe a half an hour,
edit, 45 minutes at it, and that

it's.

It's not.

It's not nothing too in depth.

Um, so that color is natural.

Speaker 1: Gotcha, that was
beautiful man.

That's uh, that is a.

Yeah, I can see why that's like
a.

I can see why that's a
sought-after shot, like it

captures.

It captures a lot of everything
you want to see.

It's like a, it's a very, it's
a very special picture.

Speaker 2: Um it's a
quintessential.

It's like it's one of those
things that you see in A lot of

movies where they're flying to
new york city.

They're fly over the Statue of
Liberty and then they get to

Manhattan.

Um, it's usually at night when
they do other movies, um, but at

any time of the day it's just,
it's, it's cool, because the

city smacks you in the face.

It's just like you're flying
over the ocean.

You come in from new jersey
over the Statue of Liberty and

then, bam, city's right there,
right in your face.

Speaker 1: You can't ignore it.

It's just there.

Um, yeah, it's.

That's.

That's amazing.

Man, I want to before I want to
.

I want to start getting into,
um, some of your blockchain,

like how you kind of like landed
in this space, but I want to

one up before we do that.

It was all a dream.

Um, that one looks that one's
not collected yet.

Um, this one when was this
taken?

Like, what was like, I guess,
what was the inspiration behind

the shot?

Like, what is this?

What is this one?

What does this one mean to you?

Speaker 2: That was just another
special sunrise and that's from

2017.

It's funny.

I shared that picture with paul
last night before I minted it.

He's like oh, it's pre one
Vanderbilt, so like you can tell

how all the shot is by the
skyline in New York City.

Speaker 1: So one.

Speaker 2: Vanderbilt is not
built yet, um, 157, so a lot of

those and all our structures
that are now lining central

parks out, they're not there, um
, but that shot is 2017 and it

was another.

It was an epic sunrise.

We didn't get to burn that, we
did on the money shot, um, but

it underlit the clouds nicely
and the light hit him, the city.

That.

It's that special side light
when the sun peaks up over the

horizon.

Yeah, um, I call them.

It's all a dream because the
brooklyn bridge and biggie was

all a dream.

We used to read word of
bagazine, um, but uh, but also

it's like it it also.

It's like If you had told me 20
years ago probably more than

that, 25 years ago that I'd be
living in New York City and I'd

be known for my aerial
photography and I would be able

to go up in helicopters
frequently throughout the course

of the year to be able to take
these shots, I would have told

you you were fucking crazy.

Speaker 1: That's awesome man.

Speaker 2: So, like that's part
the caption on it as well it's

like make memories that you
could only dream of, Because I

like to short and just try and
make the most of it.

I see it especially now that I
have kids.

I've got a nine-year-old and a
10-month-old.

My nine-year-old just turned
nine last week and it's like

fuck, I can't believe he's nine
already because he was just born

.

So the time that we have is
really limited.

So just make the most of it and
get out there and do things

that make you happy and get the
adrenaline pumping.

So that's kind of the
inspiration and the caption and

the title for that one.

I just think it's an awesome
picture because of the light on

the bridge and then the bridge
is in your face in the

foreground, but when you peek
over the bridge you get the city

in the background, the light
hitting the city.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and it looks
like it's not quite.

It hasn't quite hit the city.

It looks like it's hit half the
city.

It looks like there's a few.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, man, no
, those are the two that had

stuck out that I wanted to touch
on.

So, like 2011, you do this.

You pick up a camera, you start
shooting, you start doing this

and what's been the like?

I know this is probably a very
loaded question.

It probably has a very long
answer, but, man, like, what has

been like, how did you make it
like, did you make a name for

yourself, like prior to, like
the Web 3 NFT space, or was this

really where, like, everything
started to take off?

That makes sense.

Speaker 2: No, I started.

I started talking 20,.

I'm sorry, I'm just starting to
count backwards.

Yeah yeah.

I got sober in October of 2015,.

I picked up a camera January of
2016,.

It was after my 90 days and so
six years.

I just started taking pictures
and I started posting them on

Instagram and I got to meet up
with some of the bigger names

that were.

They were bigger names at that
time on Instagram.

I started hanging out with them
.

They started taking me to spots
, teaching me different methods

of shooting different settings
and talking me through their

processes and why they, why they
go for certain compositions, of

what type of light they look
for.

So I just started hanging out
and learning like being that

hanger on beginner that has all
the questions.

But that's how we learned and I
just kept posting and I the

following started to go up and I
started to get contacted by

some brands to do some
promotional work.

I got selected by Nikon as one
of Nikon's 100 shooters for

their 100 anniversary, which was
oh wow, that's so cool.

That was pretty cool.

They picked two of my two of my
shots to be displayed on their

Nikon 100 website.

I start working with Benro bags
, benro tripods, a timber bag.

I started doing some
sponsorship deals and my numbers

just kept going up and going up
.

But it was just Instagram as a
slog.

Instagram pain in the fucking
ass.

And I realized that now and
look, I'm not knocking on anyone

who's on Instagram, because
Instagram serves a purpose for

people who are field
photographers and it's a great

way for them to showcase their
work and it's how they get work

and it's how they get deals.

So those serve a purpose for
that.

But if you're not a full-time
photographer and you're not

planning on being a full-time
photographer and it's your hobby

and you're just trying to put
good work out there, it's a slog

Because you're playing the
engagement thing.

You got to comment on other
people's posts and they got to

tag you and you got to tag them.

And if you don't tag this
person he's pissed because you

didn't tag him in this post.

So it becomes a real pain in
the ass from that perspective.

But it for sure does serve a
purpose to the photography

community.

But it's also a scourge of
photography for community

because now brands will approach
photographers and we'll pay you

an exposure.

That's the big thing.

It's like oh, we'll feature you
on our pages, we'll give you

some products.

When you're starting office of
a photographer it's great to get

free products because it means
you don't have to buy gear.

So it's a great stepping stone.

But when you become further on
your career and your work gets

better, it's not a way to make
money.

Unless you're a full-time
photographer and you're pitching

two big brands hotels, airlines
, car companies, stuff like that

it doesn't make sense and the
slog just becomes too much.

And during COVID I quit it
altogether during COVID because

I had enough to focus on.

I run a condominium in New York
City and I had to focus on

sourcing supplies and making
sure that staff were.

You know what I mean.

I was looking after my own
family and then I was looking

after my building family, who
are my staff and the people that

live in the building, and that
was exhausting, it was scary and

I just quit photography.

I didn't quit photography.

I was still editing pictures
and I'd go to my room because I

live on the Upper East Side.

I got great views in Midtown on
the West Side, so I would still

go up and I would take pictures
, but I wasn't actively going

out because we didn't know what
the fuck was going on.

New York City was a ghost town,
like everywhere was.

But when I say New York City
was a ghost town, it was a ghost

town.

And when New York is, no one's
in New York it's usually on

holiday.

It's usually on holiday weekends
when everybody escapes to go to

the Hamptons or go to Jersey
Shore or whatever, and then it's

nice.

But when everyone's locked
inside because you don't know

what the hell is going on in the
world, it's eerie and it's

creepy and I just it didn't
appeal to me to go out.

In hindsight I wish I had gone
out and documented some of it,

because it was really a unique
period of time that we're still

living through it.

Right, right, I had other
priorities.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Well I mean, but you
get out of the opportunities

Like you have people like Dave
Kirkman who went out and shot

that like really well, you know
he captures that city very well,

you know.

Speaker 2: I'm lucky that there
were people that went out and

they did documents those times
because we have that, we have

those photos to remember it by
yeah.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Like my wife and son
didn't leave our apartment for

three months when COVID first
hit, I would take them.

I would take them up to the
roof every night the 34th floor

out on the roof and that was
like felt like it was taking the

dog for a walk, because it was
like, okay, it's time for us to

go to the roof get some fresh
air.

But we go up there for the
seven o'clock cheer every night

because we're right by a
hospital and all the nurses will

come out into their roof and
everybody in the surrounding

buildings will come out with
pots and pans and screaming.

Speaker 1: That's actually kind
of cool man yeah.

Speaker 2: So it was like I have
videos of it and watching the

videos back a couple of weeks
ago.

It makes the hair stand up on
the back of your neck and your

arms, so I had other things to
do during COVID, yeah.

And then came February, march
of 2021, and I started learning

about people and his drops.

It was actually ill concept,
like spots.

Got it, got it, yep.

I follow him on Instagram and
he would start talking about

NFTs and Dan, my other good
friend, mike Sadoski, mindsight.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

No, his work makes me stop on
my timeline every time.

It's unbelievable yeah.

The man is a magician.

Speaker 2: Yeah, but he had
minted on foundation and he said

to me but gave you an
invitation, would you mint the

photograph, would you use it?

And I was like hell, yeah, why
would I not use it?

Yeah, you're nothing about NFTs
and you know what I mean.

It was really like infancy of
learning, yeah, and I minted a

few photos and that began the
journey in the weird and

wonderful world of web tree.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what's
really really interesting, man,

we were onboarded through the
same artist.

That was actually how I started
.

That's how I learned about the
space was when maybe not some of

his prior collections, but I
didn't know what the space was

until he sold that every day's
piece.

And I just remember thinking to
myself, like how the fuck did

you sell a digital image for
like close to $70 million?

I just remember thinking to
myself I'm like I didn't dismiss

it, I didn't like you know, I
didn't get angry, but I'm just

like what is that?

Like what just happened?

How did that happen?

Like if I can download this,
how did that just happen?

And I was really interesting
though, as I was on, I just

started getting on to Clubhouse
I was watching the Good Time

show with Seraam Kay.

He's a general partner at A16Z
Investment Firm, part of an

interesting horrid.

It's part of like the whole,
like you know, one of the

biggest, one of the biggest like
web three VC firms and this is

before really it took off.

But he actually somehow scored
Elon Musk on the show and that's

like how I first heard about
Seraam.

Was that like he had Elon Musk?

And it was like right when the
whole Robin Hood thing happened

and like, like that was, it was,
it was just this wild time, and

so that's how I heard out,
heard about them, and then

Seraam was on this kick man,
like, once he got Elon it was

just like, like, like, just the
level of guests that he had on

on Clubhouse I contribute a lot
of Clubhouse's success to those

rooms and he brought on the
buyers.

He's like I'm going to have the
buyers of the, the people,

piece on and I'm like, holy shit
, man, this is going to be epic.

Speaker 2: Like I got to hear
this story.

Speaker 1: Right, like this is
going to be monumental.

This is going to be historical,
you know, and long story short,

man.

I mean it wasn't just them, but
it had like, had like Justin

Blau on, they had the one of the
original owners of like the

alien, like pipe fedora punk
that just sold it for $4 million

that week.

This all happened at the same
time, right, and so I'm just

like what is going on here, man,
and I don't know.

I'd love to hear what bit you,
but what bit me was this?

It was MetaCovid and Tubidor,
when they were talking about why

they bought this piece and like
what it represented.

They were talking about this
digital world where our assets

were our own and it was fully
censorship resistant and we

could build entire communities
and build this like digital

world that allowed people to
connect in ways that hadn't

hadn't been done before.

And I just remember thinking
I'm like what does this mean?

Why am I feeling this good?

Like what, what?

What am I like?

What is this, you know?

Yeah, so I want to hear like,
like, what was like?

I love getting people's moments
Like what was, like that aha

moment for you.

Speaker 2: There's been a few of
them.

I think the first aha moment
was knowing that I could mint

work and there was a digital
record of ownership on the

blockchain.

It took me a while to figure
out what the blockchain actually

fucking was.

It's in it, yeah, and then like
just getting into web tree

first of all is such a
convoluted and hard experience?

Yeah, and back then nobody was
doing it in February, March,

2021.

It was really well.

I know that people are going to
come out here for this, or

people doing it there was lots
of people doing it, but on the

photography side, there wasn't
very many photographers around.

No, there wasn't.

So there wasn't.

So trying to get information
was myself and Mike.

We were like on the phone with
each other all the time setting

up MetaMask how do you buy
Ethereum?

What do you do next?

Got what our gas fees, and so
like.

There was a lot of we did.

The tour was made so many
mistakes when we started, but

it's all part of the right of
passage.

So, knowing that there was that
digital, knowing that your work

was tokenized, figuring out
what a tokenized meant, and

understanding that your work was
tokenized and that you could

show proof of ownership and get
royalties on every sale of that

token, was huge.

Instead of like I've licensed
pictures, I've sold pictures, I

sell prints, but if someone
sells my print onto someone else

, I don't get anything for it,
that's right.

Someone sends my NFT onto
someone else, I get a percentage

of it.

That's right.

It was really.

It was that that got me that
this is here for the artist.

This is really like a place for
artists to be.

Yeah, and I was like this is
the future, because why would an

artist not want to do this?

And I know there are artists
out there and there's a lot of

wildlife people that are against
it.

Sure, some of the arguments are
valid.

Some of the arguments are not
valid.

Sure, this is a story for
another day.

But that to me, was like this
is here for the artist and I

want to be part of this.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's
really what I love that story

man, because that's after I had
that moment where I had that,

because I remember I was in a
very tough spot in my life.

I was.

I just received like the worst
news at my old job I was.

It turned my world inside out
and I wasn't sleeping, that I

called that entire week off of
work.

But I think that was really
what clicked for me, was that,

like once I understood the fact
and I and I'm not a traditional

artist in any sense of the form
I started my journey creating

content through streaming on
Twitch and playing video games

and, you know, building a
community that way.

But the idea that, like when I,
when I put two and two together,

that Da Vinci never saw a scent
of, like the Mona Lisa's

secondary sales, which is really
when it became popular, and now

that this was actually possible
, I think that was one of the

light bulb almost from like, oh
my God, like how did?

How is this not bigger than it
already is?

You know, I can't like how are
people missing this?

You know this, this is
revolutionary.

And I started going down the
rabbit hole and like, okay, cool

, like you know, all of a sudden
, crypto punks made sense.

You know, when people told me
the lore and the story and the

history of Crypto punks, because
initially when I saw it I had

the same reaction to everyone
else's like why would people pay

$4 million for an eight bit,
eight big character?

But when you go into the
history of like why it meant

something like it's.

It's representative of the true
DJ nature of crypto.

Like, where people are always
on the edge.

They're kind of punks, they're
a little bit of outcasts or a

bunch of shit posters, you know,
and you look at cultural

significance on chain.

That was the first project to
really document that and it all

started to like make sense.

Because initially I'm like you
know why the fuck are people

paying this much money for like,
this eight big character, for a

pixelated picture?

Yeah, exactly.

But going back to what you were
talking about is there's a lot

of people.

I haven't had John Nampf on
here, but I know he was a big

part of it, but I've, you know,
like, I've had Ben, I've had

Kath, I've had Eric, you know
Ben Strauss, you know I've had

Eric Rubens, you know, and I've
had some.

These were some like they were
telling me stories of exactly

what you were mentioning, of
like, like, and even Anna McNott

too.

She's a she's a photographer,
she also does a lot of Photoshop

work, and she was telling me
these stories of like, like, how

much photography, even during
the early days of NFTs, like how

photography was not recognized
and that it was put on the back.

Speaker 2: We were told we
didn't.

We were told we didn't belong.

There was no space for us.

Speaker 1: That's fucking insane
man.

Speaker 2: When I came in, there
was maybe 10 photographers

ahead of me roughly around 10 to
20 photographers and we were

told that there's no place for
photography in NFTs.

When you look at it now, yes,
it's insane, but we had to fight

.

We had to fight for it.

We made our own community and,
like we have built it from the

ground up, and that, I think, is
what excites me the most.

I was in a space yesterday and I
was asked how did I, how did I

deal with the lows?

Because there's so many, you
know yourself, there's so many

highs and lows.

You can get to that later.

But what excites me the most is
is that we are starting a new

art revolution, renaissance,
whatever you want to call it and

we're building it from the
ground up.

And to be able to be part, even
in the slightest, tiniest,

little minute scale, be part of
that, is fucking hell, really

fucking exciting, because not
many people get the chance to do

that.

It doesn't happen very often, it
hasn't happened very often in

the history of the world and
it's happening right now and to

be able to be part of it is
super exciting, and I think

that's what keeps me here and
that's what that's just building

community, and that's that's.

That's what this is all about.

We are building the community
from the ground up, and every

day, the community is getting
stronger and bigger and more

people are accepting it and more
people are becoming familiar

with it, and if that doesn't
excite you, we shouldn't be

talking.

Speaker 1: That's right.

That's right and that because
that was me man and I think part

of what we share a lot of
commonalities just in different

sections of this, of this
umbrella of Web.

Three is that, like I remember
thinking when I started

streaming on Twitch, I'm like
this is a saturated market.

We're all competing for the
same thing and what we're

competing for is a very, very,
very small window of opportunity

, a very small slide, like when
you get that slice.

The slice is very big and you
get paid very well and you

skyrocket to stardom, but what
it took to actually get when I

started the more I continued in
this space and the more I

started looking at what it
actually would take to get to

that level it was incredibly
disingenuous and it was so

inauthentic and I'm like I don't
want to be a part of this, like

I don't, I don't want to be
that person, I don't, and I'm

like but and then I remember
feeling this like lull of

depression, of like, well, if
this is all there is for what

I'm doing, man, what the where
the fuck do I go?

Like I just I was searching for
that like, for that like man,

where is my place in this?

You know, like here is like I
feel like Web 2, I missed out.

I feel like, is this really as
good as it can get?

I'm like, surely it can get
better than this, you know.

So we, we share that, and I
think that that's part of what

excites me is that I felt like I
had missed out on Web 2.

And I'm like this is this is my
shot.

Like I am going to shoot every
shot that I absolutely have here

.

I'm not missing out on this.

Yeah, I'm not.

I refuse to miss out on making
a mark, like, like I'm making a

mark on culture, you know, and I
didn't know that's what I

wanted to do until I found out
about it.

I'm like, oh, oh, wow, like
this is, this is fun and this is

cool and it's and you can
probably relate to this like

last year it felt somewhat it's
still special.

Like, don't get me wrong, it's
still very special, or else I

wouldn't continue, we wouldn't
be here doing this.

But last year just had a very
different vibe to it.

It was less noisy and it was
just like man, it was super,

super, super grassroots.

Do you get?

Do you get the same feeling
between like 100%, 100%.

Speaker 2: And, like, I'm not
going to lie, I got into it

because, yeah, be cool to sell
some pictures and make a little

bit of money out of it.

I think that's.

I think everybody gets into it
with that in mind.

Yeah, when you actually get in
and you start learning about it

and you start meeting other
people, you realize that it's

more than that, yeah, and that
becomes more exciting and that

becomes more of the goal.

Like when I started in March,
april last year, as I said,

there was very few photographers
and there was very few

collectors.

There was a door cow guy, there
was cat hooks, vince, and there

was a few other yeah, pretty
tree bought some pieces.

There was a few other
collectors that would buy

photography and the people that
had been in the space.

We had been building our floors
up and we had gotten up to tree

eat and then the floodgates
opened up and everybody got

foundation invites and everybody
saw that we were price and work

at this price point and they're
like, oh well, he's pricing

work at this, I can price work
at this.

And there was no concept of you
have to establish yourself and

you have to build yourself up
and it created a bubble in the

market and then photography
stopped getting collected,

interesting, yeah, and there,
like a went from a massive boom

and then it just stopped because
Vince went away.

I went, vince went away.

Everybody had to scramble and
rethink how, what's next?

What are we going to do next?

God, it was a shifting gear,
and there had been a shifting

gear with some of us before that
, because we knew it was, we

knew it wasn't sustainable,
right, and that's the beauty of

building these things is that,
yes, you try something and it

doesn't work, but guess what?

You don't give up.

You shift, you pivot and you go
to something else and you try

and figure it out because we
wanted to make it work, right,

and we knew we had a place here.

So, shift and pivot and there
were some collections went out,

and then additions went out, and
then it became more accepted.

That because, well, I became
more accepted because there was

more of us.

The photography community went
from this tiny number of people

to thousands of people and we
were shouting our voices and we

were in clubhouse originally,
and then we went to Twitter

spaces and then new collectors
came in.

These came in and these has
done fantastic things for

photography since he came in.

Speaker 1: That's actually what.

That was actually my intro to
photography.

Like I'm going to interrupt you
, but like, continue on with

through these, like going into
those spaces, yep.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and that opened
up a whole, because these

brought his friends in who then
became interested in photography

.

Yep, you had Lee, you had guys
Alexi, you had all of that crew

come in and they all wanted to
buy photography.

So that opened up a whole other
market and that kind of I think

it legitimized photography in
the space as well, because they

were true crypto DJs, yeah, that
were buying and flipping and

selling and the alt coins and
everything.

And I think there was a shift
in perspective when people saw

these guys come in and give us
some sort of value, or you know

what I mean.

Yeah, work on our work.

Yeah, ok, I've lost my turn of
thought.

Sorry, it's all good, it
happens, it happens.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'll, I'll,
I'll, I'll help pick, I'll help

fill in some gaps here.

When you think about it,
interrupt me if you, if you want

to.

But that's, that's actually
what onboarded me to photography

.

That was actually my on ramp
was was desolding those spaces,

and it wasn't till after I
interviewed him.

Then I felt this like
compelling need to like, because

, again, what I going back to
the very beginning of the

podcast, like I, I took
photography for granted, you

know, and and these help shine a
different light on it that I

hadn't been exposed to before.

You know what?

What he did in his approach was
so simple, was that he, just

before he collected work, he
wanted to know the person he was

buying from, he wanted to know
the story behind, like these

shots, and it was just a really
simple, genuine approach and I'm

like, wow, there's, there's
actually a lot to this and that

opened my eyes and that you'll
if you People are listening who

have listened for a long time,
that you go back and look at my

episodes like that, you can
definitely tell when I started

to get fascinated by photography
.

It was just all photographers,
that's all I wanted to talk to.

You know it like it's funny,
you can tell the interest that

I've had throughout, throughout
this space and I think that I

think it's really cool and I
want to.

I want to touch on something
that sometimes it can be a

polarizing topic in the
community or it's, it's.

It comes and it goes, but when
it comes to like pricing your

work, does that come?

You know, because everyone has
a different answer and everyone

goes about it in their own
different way and I the vibe

that I get is People are just
like desperate to like find like

a one-size-fits-all and it
doesn't seem like it's that easy

.

Speaker 2: There is no
one-size-fits-all.

There's not and it doesn't work
.

I made mistakes last year
because I had great success with

Vincent April and May last year
.

I had worked up pricing up to
five each.

I had sold pieces for five each
and this is when everybody else

came in and this is when
everyone else start pricing

their work higher than Honestly
and I'm gonna piss some people

off it's honestly, it's good.

The work that was out there was
being priced higher than it

should have been, and Mine
included, and it took me a long

time to realize that.

And I was stubborn and I was
stuck in my ways and I refused

to lower my pricing because I
had made sales At higher prices

but and I had been I was spoken
to, not I was spoken to I had

had Conversations with other
collectors and they had advised

me to lower my prices and I
refused and because I was being

pigheaded and stubborn and and
it took me a while to realize

that and once I realized that I
was like shit, I have wasted

three months of Potential sales
in this space because I was

being stubborn and I wasn't
taking the advice that I was

being given and I went to a hole
, like I went to a rough patch

in the summer last year and like
Rough patches, all red and

upright.

Yes, yeah, yeah, I still had a
job.

I said I had my family, I had my
friends, I was still involved

in the space, but mentally I
went from making big sales to

making no sales at all, and Then
realizing that I was making no

sales at all was because of me,
it was my fault and it was my

bigheadedness that was causing
it, and so that's when I shifted

my, my pricing theory and I
dropped my prices and I then I

had, I had success again.

I made some sales again, right,
and when I went one eats, sub

one eats and, like you have to
realize that Not everyone is Not

everyone is crypto native,
right, right.

So there's a lot, there is a
lot of crypto native people in

here who do have bags that
they've had for years and they

bought into and it was a Dollar
or $50 or whatever it may be,

yep, yep.

So today I'm spending ten.

Each is a hell of a lot
different than someone who's

coming into the space and buying
either 2,200 bucks, and he

looks a lot different when
you're buying it yourself at

this present moment in time.

So it took me a while to
realize that and and once I did,

I made my work accessible to
more people and to new

collectors New, not new, just
new collectors to me, new

collectors in the space, because
In general in this house.

Exactly new collectors in the
space aren't rushing out to

spend Three, four, five, ten,
fifty, a hundred each on a

picture Right there.

Just not, because this is a
whole new wild venture to

everybody and if you're testing
the waters and you bought a

little bit of a theory for
yourself and you want to find

some cool art, you're not gonna
blow it on in one picture.

That's right.

That's right.

So once I had that mind shift,
I started having some more

success success again and I made
sales and I put out a

collection and it did okay.

Haven't sold out and I'm okay
with that because it's worked on

.

I never would have.

Never would have seen the light
of day if I hadn't been for wet

tree because it was it's street
work.

It's like Snow snow days in New
York City is what it's called.

So it's like me walking through
the streets with my friends

taking pictures in lizards in
snow storms, which is hella

fucking fun.

It's great.

You're out there and the snow
is pounding in the face and your

hands are freezing.

You're taking, you're like
You're documenting the city in

these massive storms, but it's
not type of work that I put on

Instagram, because not type of
work that gets on likes and then

in Instagram You're playing the
likes game.

So I had this catalog of these
pictures Never would have seen

the light of day, yeah, if it
wasn't for web tree.

And I put this collection
together and I love it and I had

some success with that and then
I applied to Super Air.

I applied to Super Air four
times last year and On the

fourth time was I got the
acceptance on December the 23rd,

that I got into Super Air.

Congrats, man, yeah, thanks man
.

And that was that.

That was a great feeling
because it was a lot of hard

work.

There was a lot of work that
everyone has put in in the last

year and but it was a good
feeling to get in there.

And I had been saving my aerial
photographs Until I got I had

minted to on foundation, but I
have a catalog of aerial

photographs that I've been
saving Specifically so I could

put them on Super Air, because
it I feel it's the premium web

tree Marketplace.

It is and I Know Super Air has
this aura around it that this is

where collectors spend a lot of
money, right?

So, yeah, there's people that
assume that once you got into

Super Air, that you're gonna
price your work at 10, 8, 12, 8,

whatever it may be, whatever
that number comes into your head

right.

And I had learned my lesson and
I didn't want to make the same

mistake as I had made the
previous May.

Oh, so my price and strategy
when I got to Super Air has been

, and will continue to be, that
I want to offer Value to my

early collectors.

So I priced my Genesis piece at
1.75.

It's old for two.

Norcal guy started the auction
off and then bat soup young

sniped it in the last hour of
NorCal, who was asleep and

couldn't get to the computer,
and and then I.

Then I had slowly raised my
price.

I went from 1.75 to 2 to 2.5
and had four sales 2.5, and now

I've gone up to three and I plan
on Slowly small incremental

increases after I show I have a
sales record at a certain price.

I Like I'm gonna call me people
are gonna call me crazy, people

are telling me up, could tell me
a price for work too low, but

I've been here a year and made
mistakes and not shoot.

I have another opportunity on
Super Air To make it, to make it

, to make it better than I
already have and I don't want to

fuck it up.

So I've gone in with a price
and strategy in mind and that's

what.

That's what I'm sticking to on
from the market decides

otherwise.

Speaker 1: You know, you
actually, you actually, I like I

learned something in what you
just said there and it lines up

with a lot of a couple
interviews I've been watching.

I'm a huge tool fan and so I've
been watching a lot of like

Maynard James Keenan interviews
were he's what.

He's one of the people I look
up to a lot and he was asked

this question During one of his
interviews, during it was like

right after he published his
book, and he did this like super

formal, like tell all a little
bit, where he Just discussed all

that.

He's not.

He does a lot of interviews,
but he's not typically very,

very vulnerable when it comes
like a lot of his personal life,

and so this is a very rare
opportunity to hear a very raw

version of himself.

And when someone asked him a
very generic question and I'm

like, okay, here we go, it was
one of those things.

It's like he's in three bands
and none of them are small time.

They're all like tools.

Like you know, I've got a cult
follow Just it.

I mean this is own, it's in its
own league.

You know pusfer and you got
like a perfect circle and he

owns his own, it's two vineyards
and does jujitsu and has a wife

and kids.

I mean, like the guy's a
fucking machine man.

And when someone asked him the
question, you know everyone

always asked the general
question Like what keeps you

going?

Or like how do you keep doing
this after you've accomplished

so much, especially just
something of that magnitude?

His answer was actually really
brilliant.

I wasn't expecting, I Was kind
of expecting him to like do a

little snarky eye roll and like
play it off like he does.

You know it's in his style.

But what he answered moved me
and it was that he's like what

keeps me going is that I know, I
know the craft can always get

better.

Like I don't.

I, it's not that I made a
mistake the past time like of

course you make mistakes, it's
not that what I did before was

bad it.

But in essentially, he
essentially said like when you,

when you stop Thinking that
things can get better than they

don't and then you stop, you
start losing the artsmen.

So if you start, you stop
losing the creativity, you stop

losing everything when you put a
cap on how good something can

get, um, and so what was really
interesting is that, like the

way you said that is that like
it's almost like your pricing

strategy dictates, like how
early you think you are in your

career and like how early you
are and you think your work is,

and like how good your work
actually can get if this quality

of work is being priced at this
, at this amount of Ethereum.

Am I wrong?

Like that to me?

I don't know.

That's actually whether you
intended that or not, or I don't

know if that's like what you
meant, but I don't know, man,

that's what I got from it and I
think it's pretty fucking cool.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, like.

I mean I've released.

Some of the pieces that I've
released are some of my best

pieces that I released.

But I wanted to give those
early collectors who would

believe in me and who were
willing to spend the money I

wanted to give them that value
so that later on down the road

that if this journey continues
the way that I hope it does,

that they will get a return on
their investment for believing

in me early.

And I want to keep the quality
of work of where it is and

better.

You know what I mean.

Our goal every day should be to
improve on ourselves, improve

on the last thing that we did.

So that's the plan.

Whether it works out that way,
only time will tell and we'll

see what happens.

Getting back to pricing, when I
was pricing too high I had

collectors saying why don't you
start and not why don't you list

it up 0.5 and let the auction
start and then let the market

decide what?

value of your work is and I was
like no, because I think my work

has worked.

To eat, that's it.

I think it's worth to eat.

I want to eat for it.

Stubbornness, and I'll say this
to anyone who's new or anyone

who is only getting into it let
the market decide what your work

is worth.

Give the market the opportunity
to buy your work instead of

pricing out a large portion of
the market from the offset.

Make it affordable that you can
have peers, you can have

friends, you can have family
members come in and start an

auction at 0.2.

Right, you may think your
picture is worth more than 0.2.

It probably is worth more than
0.2.

And if it is, you'll have more
people who want to buy it off

you and you'll get that bidding
war.

And once you get that bidding
war, you show that there's

interest in your work.

If you're just getting one bid
every time on your work, it's

showing that there's not a
demand.

It's not showing that there's
not a demand.

It looks better when you have a
bidding war on your work,

because it shows that there's
more demand.

Speaker 1: When you get at the
higher price points.

Speaker 2: Unless you're a big,
big name like Eric or like Ben

or like Kat, you may not get a
bidding war because you're

getting into prices that are
unattainable to most people,

right Right.

And if you're just starting off
, people aren't going to want to

invest that money in someone
who is not established.

So price accordingly.

Yes, your work is probably
worth more than what I'm telling

you or what I'm advising you to
price it for, which it took me

forever to realize why
collectors were telling me this.

But when it snapped I was like
yes, okay, it makes sense, give

the market an opportunity to
dictate what your work is worth.

Speaker 1: I love that man and I
think that you touched on a lot

.

You touched on something that
really stuck out to me was that

you said it was about like 10 or
15 days ago.

It took me so long to figure
out that the problem was

actually me and that it's been a
mantra my entire life.

Man Like I can sit here and
yell at the clouds.

I can sit here like any problem
that I have in my life, and I

can sit here and blame, and I'll
do it.

I'll still do it.

I'll go through the blame game.

It'll be everyone else's fault,
it'll be the job's fault, it'll

be the girl's fault, it'll be
whatever's fault, the dog's

fault, the dog's exactly.

And then it'll come around and
I'm like damn man, even if I've

been in positions where I
actually have been wronged.

If I'm really honest with myself
, I took steps to place myself

in that exact position to be
hurt, to be harmed, even though

I was still technically wronged.

But I put myself in a position
to be there, but at the same

time, that was the best I knew.

There's two sides of that coin.

That's the best you did with
what you had, and all of your

life experience led up to that
moment, where then you figured

it the fuck out that you were
the problem and I was the

problem, and I think that that's
something that is not talked

about enough.

So I just I really wanted to
highlight that, because there's

not enough accountability just
in general.

Nobody is wanting to take
accountability for their own

actions, and it's one of the
things that is, honestly,

incredibly crucial and something
that you touched on that we may

.

I want to kind of end this, I
want to end it on here is that

when we're like, one thing I
picked up on is that when you're

built, like when you're talking
about building this community,

and there's, like it's, a very
renegade crew, you know, there's

about like five to 10
photographers that are building,

that are carving out, that are
fighting for the name to like

have photographers be welcomed
and not only be welcomed but be

valued in in the crypto space.

Is that I think the one special
thing is that in building these

little, small niche communities
, is that, like, we're also

responsible for building the
entire community as a whole.

I mean there is, there is a
level of responsibility that

when you're building these small
niche parts, you're actually

shaping the entire hamster wheel
.

If that makes sense, yeah, yeah
100%.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what
makes it even more special is

because exactly what started off
as a tiny group has because of

acceptance and because of the
way web tree is and the way that

it has worked over the last
year for us anyway is that you

ask questions and people will
give you answers.

Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, it's
wild.

Who would have thought?

Because I'm going to go back to
the dreaded Instagram again.

You ask someone where did they
take the shot or what your

settings were for that shot, and
you'd be told to fuck off or

you'd just be ignored, or you
just won't tell you.

People in web tree want to help
you and they want you to succeed

, because it's cliche and it
sounds all lovey dovey, but when

one of us succeeds, we all
succeed, because a win for one

is a win for all, and the more
that you can educate people and

the better job that you can do
at educating people and the more

people you do educate, the
better it is for everybody.

Yeah, it's because if you can
have the whole village in sync

and working the same way not
everyone's working the same way,

but working in the same-
direction I don't want to say

governance, yet direction.

Exactly, if everybody's working
towards the same direction, with

the same goals and minds,
everything goes a lot smoother

and it works out in everybody's
benefit.

Speaker 1: When I think there's
also, we're scratching the

surface and people are starting
to realize that there is

actually room for everyone to
make it in their own unique way.

In web two, this wasn't a
possibility.

There's the lion's share of
money and attention, but it's

cookie cutter man.

You have to fit a certain mold
for that to work.

Here, that's what I've at least
learned is that there is no

mold.

There is no mold to this.

So when I think that's been one
of the biggest problems with

people is that when you try to
educate people, they are in this

mindset of okay, but what is
the way to make it?

What is the type of art that I
need to make?

What is the type of style that
collectors go after?

But it's like when people just
do their own thing, they realize

that there's so much to be had
by not doing what everyone else

is doing.

Speaker 2: Your art that you
have made in your unique way.

They don't want a recurgitation
of somebody else's art.

Speaker 1: They don't man.

And that's what I think is the
hardest part, at least in my

idea of onboarding people, is
that people getting stuck in

that mindset of a one size fits
all and it's like, no, this is

everyone doing their own thing
and people also realize that the

internet is a very big place.

I don't think people really
understood in Web 2 how big the

internet actually is and how
much opportunity that there

actually is here, and I probably
am grossly underestimating how

much opportunity there actually
is.

I'm almost certain of it.

Speaker 2: It's huge.

We're only at the beginning,
with a very small collector set

of people who are here, and I
think the beauty of the space is

that as the artists grow and as
the artists succeed, they in

turn become collectors, which
then also increases the

collector pool, and I love
collecting people's work.

It's actually it's becoming.

I got to slow down because I
need to start saving some of the

money rather than just buying
work, but it empowers you to go

off and give someone else their
first sale.

Give that person that feeling
that you had when you made your

first sale.

That's right, and we're just
again cliche.

We are so early.

We are so early and the more
people that get involved, the

more collectors will come in and
the more different genres,

different types of photography
will be collected.

And I know it's this heartening
for some photographers out there

because their style of work
isn't being collected like

street work.

Very few.

There's not an awful lot of
street photographers work that

gets connected and there's some
amazing street photographers out

there, but their time will come
.

They just need the right
collector set to come in, and I

collect street photography.

I like street photography.

There's people that do macro
photography Matt do.

I don't know, if you know him,
he does fantastic animal macro

photography.

He's carved a niche for himself
in that field.

It's opened the doors for more
and more macro photographers.

So I think, as we progress and
as we keep going on this

wonderful journey that we're on,
it's just, it's only going to

get better.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I couldn't
agree more, man.

I think what I'm going to say
would dilute what you just said,

so I want to start wrapping
things up.

Man Kylian, it's been an
absolute treat to have you on.

This has been a badass
conversation, man.

Speaker 2: I really appreciate
it, Matt.

It's been a hell of a lot of
fun.

We got to do it again because
there has been a hell of a lot

of fun.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you know
that's the whole idea.

We'll definitely be doing this
again.

Speaker 2: It's still a year
from now and see where we are.

Let's see, we can listen to the
conversation that we just had

before we come on, and then we
can see how we've progressed in

the year.

Speaker 1: I fucking love that
man.

I love that because I've
actually thought about doing

that with some of the people.

I've recorded on, like what
would be the format, like how

would we do this, and I think
that, dude, I think that's

fantastic man.

So it's documented, it's
recorded.

It's technically not on chain,
but it's on all the servers.

So hopefully these will all be
minted in a creative way where I

can figure out how to drive
value from this to people.

But, man Kylian, where can
people find you?

Where can people like, where do
you want people to go to see

your work, interact with you?

Speaker 2: What's the best spots
?

See folks on Twitter these days
because that's where Wexry is,

that's where we're anchored.

I'm Killian Moore underscore on
Twitter.

Any questions?

You want to give me shit for
anything I've said tonight?

To shoot me at the end.

I love a good bit.

I'm an Irish guy.

I love a good bit of back and
forth.

I can give those good likes.

Don't worry about it, I love it
.

And the space yesterday is like
Christopher Sien.

They were hosting a space for
me and he's like you've been up

to so many ups and downs Like
how do you feel I'm like?

I am what I am and I am
unapologetic for it.

And just this is me.

I vibe with everybody.

If I'm in your corner, I'll
fight till the death for you.

So just find me on Twitter
Killian Moore underscore.

My work is on Super Rare.

I don't have any minted pieces
on Foundation, but I do have a

collection on OpenSea Snow Days
in New York City.

Speaker 1: Love it, man, love it
.

I'll put all those links in the
show notes, that way people can

have a little reference point
once it's over.

Man.

But, killian, have a great rest
of your night, man, it's been a

treat.

Hang out with me.

I'm going to stop the recording
, but hang out.

It's going to take a little bit
to upload and we'll just

bolster it a little bit
afterwards.

Speaker 2: I appreciate it, man.

It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 1: Awesome man.

Thank you for joining us for
another episode of the Shiller

Vaulted podcast.

We hope you enjoyed our
conversation as we close out

today's episode.

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