Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to Vaulted, a Web3

podcast series from the Shuler
Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on December 12, 2022

and features X-Lawyer, a staple
in Web3, known for its great

taste in art, insightful threads
breaking down crypto and NFT

policy and, of course, hot takes
about food on the timeline.

In this episode, we discussed
everything from practical

applications of NFTs, advantages
of both digital and physical

art, how he goes about
collecting art, art as a

business, and so much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
investment advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed With.

That being said, let's dive in
with X-Lawyer.

Speaker 2: GM sir, how are you?

Speaker 3: GM.

I'm good.

I'm tired.

It's late on a Friday, Glad
that the work week is open or is

over.

I'm also having massive FOMO
right now.

All of my friends are in Miami
and I'm looking at my timeline

and I'm really missing it.

But then I see posts from
people like Faroq that say Miami

in a summary and it's just a
picture of Google Maps.

With a half hour drive time to
go a mile, I feel pretty good

about dodging that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I
shared the sentiment.

Initially I was super dishonest
with myself around how I really

felt about not going,
especially after the experience

I had in New York.

I was like you know what being
disciplined is going to be great

, I'm going to handle this like
a champ.

I did good for a couple of days
but after all the pictures

started coming in I was like,
yeah, all that shit's out the

window.

I was like I did it for a while
but if I'm really honest with

myself, it's bittersweet because
I think you went to New York

this past year.

These IR relevance are just.

I mean, they just make it all
worth it.

There's so much fun.

Speaker 3: They are.

Yeah, I mean, there are tons of
fun.

I posted something I don't know
yesterday or day before talking

about how important they are
because they let you.

I'm really close to a bunch of
people on Twitter and I DM with

them all the time that I've
never met in real life.

But when you get to meet
somebody in real life and you

get to give them a hug and see
their face when they're laughing

and maybe see their face for
the first time because most

people think that I look like a
frog human hybrid.

I'm actually less frog than my
PFP implies, but you get to

there's just something special
about a physical connection and

I think that probably COVID made
us realize how special that

connection is.

I mean, zoom and Twitter and
all of that shit's great.

But getting to give somebody a
hug and laugh with them in

person and have a drink with
them in the same room, there's

like magic there.

And then you go to a giant event
Miami, new York, whatever and

you've got a bunch of people,
thousands of people that are all

there at the same time for the
same reason and it kind of has a

network effect in the city.

A bunch of people start asking
questions Well, what are these

A-putties that you're wearing?

And there's a bunch of art here
that's never been here before.

Tell us about it.

That kind of exposure in
general is good for the space.

So I love the IRL events.

I think they're very important
and I think that people that

haven't had a chance to make one
should do the best they can to

find a way to go to one of them
at least once.

Speaker 2: I fully agree with
you.

I mean and it was a big risk
for me to go this past year, I

booked everything to New York.

I booked everything last minute
because I was resisting going,

and I was resisting for a long
time.

I was like you know what,
though, it's actually going to

cost me more to not go to one of
these, just from all the

opportunity I'm going to lose
out on, and just the opportunity

to meet everyone that I've
literally made content with for

the past year and a half, and I
got to meet 15 to 20 people that

I had on my podcast, and it was
like that again, that feeling

Like when you've shared bonds,
you shared moments, you shared

shitposts, and then getting to
give that person a hug.

There's no better feeling, and
I had immediate regret when I

landed, because I had no plan, I
had no idea what I was doing,

but after the first event, it
was like all of that went out

the window.

I was like, okay, this is fine,
I made the right decision, like

this is good, I'm going to have
an absolute blast, and I think

one of the things that I learned
there, though, is because I'm

not sure how long you've been in
this space.

I've kind of been here since I
came in in the Beeple sale but I

didn't really know where my
place was for the longest time.

And I'm like, do I have a foot
in the PFP game?

Do I have a foot in the art
game?

How much, how much.

It really forced me to really
think, wow, who do I want to

spend the most time with when
there is all these events that

have a lot of appeal to go to?

You know what I mean.

And it's really where I was
able to confidently say, okay,

now I know where to spend my
time going forward.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean 100%
.

In New York I think I had one
day where I had four events at

the same time, yeah, and I was
trying to plan around, how do I

make this one, how do I make
that one?

And obviously I had to miss
some of those.

But getting to go to IRL events
if you're kind of like you were

and I was in that place once
too, where I was like I don't

know how much I care about PFPs
versus just fine arts and

getting to go to those events
gives you the opportunity to

meet people and see what they're
really like and that'll help

you find your circle that you
fit in and mesh with best.

And so I mean I went to some
amazing events.

I went to some artist events
and then I went to a couple of

PFP events.

I went to the capsule house
events and that was a ton of fun

.

Yeah, I'm very much looking
forward to hopefully getting to

do another one of those soon.

But yeah, I mean it's.

I think if you're going to go to
an IRL event for your first

time, plan something.

Plan, you know, look at the
schedule, plan on going to a

couple of things, but then give
yourself permission to break

your plans because you're going
to do, because you're going to

get a random invite.

You know that.

You know maybe you're having
coffee with somebody and they're

like, hey, do you want to go to
this thing?

And you know you're like, oh
shit, I hadn't planned that, but

fucking let's go.

Yeah and yeah.

And some of the very best times
I had at NFT NYC were things

that I had completely not
planned.

They were not on my calendar
and I'm a person that if it's

not on my calendar, it is not
happening.

It is not real, you know.

And so I did.

I did, in fact, go in and add
them to my calendar.

Speaker 2: Of course you did
Exactly.

I like that.

So I mean so something that
like just a just a icebreaker

question man, I guess there's
two questions here.

Is you know, when did you first
like find NFTs and like what

was like the appeal to you, like
what's kind of like that light

bulb moment where you're like
Damn, like I want to, I want to

spend time that I don't really
have already to learn about this

.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

So I mean, I remember hearing
about crypto punks years ago

when they were first coming out
and they were selling for, like

you know, after the claim, they
were selling for a couple of

hundred dollars and a couple of
thousand dollars and I didn't

get it.

You know, I was like this is
stupid, why aren't we?

Why would you buy this?

This is.

Somebody spent $2,000 on this.

Well, like, what an idiot.

Yeah, and you know, I just kind
of let it go.

And then the people sale
happens and it's this eye

popping number, yeah.

And so I pulled that piece to
look at it and learn about it

and I'm like this is very
interesting.

And at the same time, you had
Dapper Labs and Top Shot in the

news, and so NFTs, top Shot both
in the news at the same time.

And you know, one of my primary
sources of news is Bloomberg.

So and Bloomberg tends to be
very good factual news We've

gotten kind of opinionated
recently, but in general,

factual news is really solid.

So if something's in Bloomberg,
then it's like okay, this is

like it's not a flash in the fan
, this is real.

So I follow it.

And then I eventually decide
that I'm going to take the leap

in around September 21.

That's when I created my
Twitter account and, like, I

would imagine, 99% of people
that come into the space, I

entered through PFPs.

Sure, I actually I entered
through a couple of like tiny,

itty bitty little projects that
weren't really PAPs, they were

kind of our based, and in fact I
think I still own maybe the

first or second NFT I ever
bought.

It was a pixelated portrait of
Mr Burns.

Speaker 2: From the Simpsons.

Speaker 3: From the Simpsons
yeah, this guy did.

You know what?

I think it's in a hot wallet.

I'm going to find it, I'm going
to transfer it to my vault

wallet xlawyer vaulte and look
for the pixelated picture of Mr

Burns.

And that was.

That was probably one of my
first three or four NFTs.

I love it.

But then, you know, I ended up
I bought a crypto mori, which is

still on.

I bought a dead fellow, which
is still on.

I bought a capsule house on
secondary.

I didn't get to mint it Fun
story on that.

One Bought it unrevealed and it
turned out to be a cultist and

I think I sold that for like two
or three and then I since

bought two more.

But I was drawn in, like most
people buy PAPs.

And then, in December of 21, I
started to learn more about art

blocks and one of one art and
that sort of thing.

And so around January of 22, I
decided that I was going to

write weekly spotlights,
spotlighting different artists,

and I was very, very good about
that.

I did that, for I've probably
written 50, not 50, maybe 30 of

them at this point.

And then I started thinking,
all right, well, I should write

about other things too.

So I started writing some legal
threads I don't really do those

very much anymore, there's
plenty of other great resources

to do those and I started
writing about other things,

probably in February or March,
and so by the time that I got to

NFT NYC in June I was very much
okay.

I still have a couple of PFP is
very much on that.

This is an artistic cultural
right, worse kind of bandwagon,

and that's.

That's basically the overly
long summary of my journey.

Speaker 2: We like the.

We like the overly long.

That's what I was going for, I
mean.

So did you follow up?

Did you like collect art before
this, or was this kind of?

Is this kind of like all new to
you?

Speaker 3: No, I love art.

When I was in undergrad I
studied abroad for a semester in

London and really fell in love,
really really fell in love with

art in London.

But my parents, when I was
growing up, they collected

primarily bronze sculptures that
they would buy at state sales

and local auctions nothing from
Christie's or anything like that

.

And we my family goes to Vegas
a lot, and we did when I was

younger, so they would buy some
of the galleries out there and

that sort of thing.

And so I've collected art for a
long time, loved art for a long

time, you know, and it's it's
when you get to live in a city

like London or New York, paris,
it's hard not to be exposed to

world class art because, like
you know, the Tate Britain, tate

modern in London, most of their
collections are free to visit,

and there, when I say world
class, I mean that those two

museums are easily, easily top
25 museums in the entire world.

And so, you know, you get to
spend time with Rembrandt's and

Rothko's.

Yeah, yeah, you're gonna hear
you're either going to

immediately fall in love or art
is just not your thing.

There's really not much in
between.

And so the discovery that there
were one of one artists and

small edition artists and fine
artists within the NFT space,

which I usually generally refer
to as crypto art now was kind of

like okay, I think I've found
my people.

Speaker 2: I would tend to agree
with you.

I know I enjoy that and I
actually had.

The reason I ask is because I
was taken to.

You know I grew up in Houston
and you know so.

Speaker 3: Did you really?

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, are you
still in Texas?

Yeah, I am.

I'm in Austin, I'm in Fort
Worth.

Hell yeah, man.

Yeah, we're literally like
three hours away from how to get

coffee.

Speaker 3: Absolutely,
absolutely.

Which three hours?

For those people that are
listening, they're like, oh my

God, that's forever.

No, in Texas, that's like you
know, it's like a daily drive,

come on.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you
know, it's really funny a

sidestep before I, before I tell
the stories that, because

growing up in Houston everything
was a was like a 10 to 15

minute drive minimum, like that
was just it, because Houston's

just so spread out and that's
just the time it took to get

anywhere.

And now that I live in Austin,
austin's such a small city, like

it's actually like it's growing
in population, but the actual

city is tiny and you know, you
know, I catch myself saying, oh

man, it's like a crosstown and
it's like a cross.

A crosstown is literally a 30
minute drive.

And I'm like man, you really
forgot where you can.

You really like lost touch of
where you came from, because

that used to just be a common
drive.

Like 30 minutes was a not that
big of a commitment.

You know it was because we
would sometimes go to Galveston

or Moody Gardens and stuff like
that.

Like that's a commitment, right
, but 30 minutes is exactly.

Yeah, we just go into the city.

So I grew up in a little suburb
outside of Houston so it was

about 25 miles into the inner
city in Houston.

So but it's still.

You know, houston area is kind
of like Dallas, fort Worth, it's

the same shit.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no.

Well, yeah, I mean frankly, for
, for the listeners, you and me

we can't be friends, man.

I mean, you're from Houston,
I'm from DFW, we're basically

mortal enemies.

Speaker 2: We are, we are.

Yeah, it is.

I mean we can, we can connect
on this, but we are outside of

this.

We are, we are, we are mortal
enemies 100%.

Speaker 3: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2: But you know, it's
like I grew up going to the, you

know, the Houston Museum of
Fine Arts and like that's a

great, it's a great museum there
, and I didn't realize it till,

you know, years later.

But I remember going as a kid
and I just remember, like

looking at it and like really
like being drawn to it.

But I think where my disconnect
was is that like I just could

not fathom why.

You know, this is like me being
at like five or six years old,

you know.

So I had no concept of money
and no concept of life really.

But I'm like why.

I just had the question why
does someone pay so much money

for this and why, like, and what
drives the value of that Like,

why do these, why do these
people pay just these exuberant

amounts of money for stuff like
that?

And it actually wasn't until I
found this like and then after

that I just never took an
interest in art.

You know, I was set on the path
to like get a quote, unquote,

real job, like.

You know, the arts kind of like
, you know, fell by the wayside

and but it wasn't until this
space, when I came in, that I

didn't, I didn't realize, like
how much I had a like I didn't

realize how strong my connection
was, you know, until after

coming in through the people art
sale and through the PFCs, and

then it's like, oh my God, like,
this is just like a I'm like a

candy store here.

You know, this is this
community is like for the people

that like have an infinite
amount of curiosity and, you

know, are just seeking constant
questions and but yeah, it was

just like I.

I so like that's why I started
interviewing artists.

I'm like I want to learn more
about photography.

I want to learn more about, you
know, digital art.

I want to learn more about
illustration, you know, and I

found that a lot of people here
in the space were not previous

art collectors before they came
into the NFT space and everyone

was just kind of like learning
and figuring this out, and so I

mean it's cool that you have
that background.

So it gives you, you're
probably got good, you probably

had good taste before you came
in here, based on your wallet

that I see here.

Speaker 3: I really appreciate
that.

I mean, you raise some really
really interesting things there,

but you know what they'll
probably turn into threats

someday.

You know why?

Why do so many people that may
have enjoyed art come into this

space and they've never bought
art before?

And then, the next thing, you
know, they own 50 or 100 pieces,

you know?

I mean, I do think that
ownership is a powerful thing.

I think that ownership helps
you build a connection in a way

that merely observing does not.

I mean, if you think about it,
celebrity memorabilia, like why

do people want to own Elvis's
pants?

You know, and it's because they
connected with his work.

And what's better than
connecting just with the music,

while owning something that has
a direct connection to the music

?

Yes, it makes it, even makes
you even closer in a way.

And so, here you know, owning
an NFT.

Yeah, you could go and write,
click save, but it's just not

the same as actually owning it
and getting to.

You know, display it in an on
cyber gallery and say that's

mine, or put it up on a token
frame or whatever.

And so you know, ownership is
powerful.

So why do people buy here that
it never bought before?

And you know, frankly, I think
that a big chunk of that is

because the traditional art
world is not easy to navigate.

It's not like if you go to a
touristy city I mentioned Vegas

earlier.

There are a lot of galleries
there and they have some of them

have some really interesting,
cool looking things.

But if you're trying to buy it
as you know, this is going to be

fine art that might appreciate
value you're you're just going

to lose your ass on it because
it's not, because it's mass

produced, right?

Yeah.

And then if you go to like a
truly exceptional gallery, they

can be very, very stuffy.

And then you're looking around
and you're like, dude, why is

that $25,000?

That's worth my what my car is
worth, right?

That's where a lot of people
are, and so it kind of turns

them off of the I'm going to buy
art thing.

And then you come into crypto
art and, yeah, we certainly have

the pieces itself for thousands
of dollars, but I think that

crypto artists are very good
about trying to produce

accessible pieces that are
accessible to price.

So before we started recording,
you told me that you did a an

interview with May recently.

She's one of my favorites.

Her work sells for a lot of
money.

I own a one on one, but she
also did an open edition that

was priced at $169.

I think 77 people bought them.

Oh, awesome, that's awesome.

You know I published that one
on Nifty Gateway and you know I

think that by allowing people to
buy editions, it's a very

accessible way into art
ownership.

That is much, much, I'm not
gonna say harder to do, but it

is more rare in the traditional
art space.

And then, of course, there's
the whole factor of all right.

So you bought a painting, now
you have to hang it, yeah.

You know yeah.

And I mean physical art is.

It's amazing and it's never
gonna go anywhere, and some of

the best works ever created and
that ever will be created,

including in the future, will be
physical works of art.

Yep, 100% agree with you, but
there are some kind of pain in

the ass factors with physical
art, the same way that there are

kind of some pain in the ass
factors with dollar bills right.

Speaker 2: So I guess I have
some thoughts on that, because,

yeah, that was one of the things
that very much like you, I

don't have wall space or enough
of it, so that was one of the

things that attracted me to.

This is like oh wow, like not
only can I, not only can I have

as many pieces as I want, it's
like this infinite.

This is like this backpack that
never that never ends, that I

can just keep putting my
favorite art in, except I have

the ability to display in things
like on cyber and like these

digital frames.

I actually put one of those on
my Christmas list.

It's one of the murals from
from neck gear.

Speaker 3: Nice, nice.

So I've got a.

I've got a 10 inch token frame.

Okay, how do you like it?

I?

Love it.

It's great I've got it at my
office at work.

I'm planning on picking up I
think they're largest size is

like a 55.

I'm planning on picking one of
those up soon and I'm going to

hang it in my living room at my
house.

And my wife, mrs X lawyer she
generally does not have much to

say in the selection and
collection process.

She's very interested, but
there are some pieces that I've

shown her and asked her opinion
or I've given her some choices.

I've said, hey, I'm going to buy
one of these three.

Which one, which one do you
prefer?

And so we have some pieces that
she really loves that I'm

excited about being able to
rotate through based on you know

, our mood and whatever.

I think that a brutal thread
about it was like you're

underestimating the how big
crypto art will be, and one of

one of the arguments in the
thread was being able to have a

single display and then rotate
what's there based on your mood

or time of day or whatever is
very, very powerful.

Yep, and I can guarantee you
that, as this space grows, very

wealthy people are always going
to buy very expensive paintings.

They're always going to buy
Jackson Pollux and Pocosas, et

cetera.

Speaker 2: I mean, look at what
was it.

Speaker 3: Paul.

Speaker 2: Allen's Paul Allen's
Yep.

What was it?

Speaker 3: 1.5 billion was
cleared in one night, yeah,

right around there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, including
several all time highs that

exceeded $100 million.

Speaker 3: So those paintings
are always going to sell, but a

portion of their art spending is
going to be directed towards

buying very, very, very nice
displays and you know they're

going to hang them in their
living room or in their dining

room and they're going to rotate
through really, really nice

pieces based on.

I mean, how cool is it that if
you hang one in your dining room

and you want to throw a party,
you can change the art that's

displayed to the theme of the
party?

Yeah, yeah, and I can guarantee
you that that will become a

trend in the next, let's say,
five outward 10 years.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd agree with
yeah, because that's what I was

most excited about and I think
because we, you know, this is a

very it's so easy to get lost in
all of the nuances of crypto

and crypto art and fungible
tokens and non-fungible tokens

and all of the technical.

You know all the technical
stuff but to your point, like

it's, people really
underestimate how something so

simple of being able to change
the art based on the mood has a

like, how big that effect is.

And if you have multiple
screens, you can save collected

hundreds and hundreds or even
thousands.

Some people are just insane
collectors here of work.

You can actually match
everything up with multiple

displays, you know, and you
don't need to have that many

displays to display all of the
art that you want to display.

But I think really, where I grew
a biggest grew, the biggest

connection here, was that it's
not necessarily the fact that

you know yes, wall space is an
issue and the digital frames you

know are a part of it, but I
think it's the fact that I get

to have a relationship with
every single artist that I

bought from you know, and I get
such, I have such a close

personal relationship that I get
to know them before, you know,

before I buy a piece, or I get
to see how they interact and how

they treat people before I buy
a piece and I get to have this

like that's.

I think my favorite part is
that, like, I get to collect

relationships, you know, because
I think to circle back as well

to your point earlier is that I
mean there's something that

happens when a transaction takes
place and I think there's a

bond that's formed and it's so
much more than money, it's a,

it's a signal of trust, it's a
signal of like wow, I really

believe in this person and not
only am I buying a piece of

beautiful art, but I'm
contributing whether that's, you

know, financially, emotionally,
both towards, you know, this

person's longevity as an artist,
being able to do something they

really enjoy.

And there's just something
really like, really special

about that.

And I had no idea until, like,
I signed my first transaction

digitally and that was such a
wild feeling.

I think that's really what
hooked me.

You know, the people sale got
me, got me in.

But once it was, once I like
signed that transaction on

Ethereum, I was like, wow, this
feels really good.

I think I want to do this again
.

Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, yeah,
no, I mean, I agree.

I mean I at least every one of
one that I own I have a

relationship with the artist,
whether it's in DMs, whether

I've met them in person, whether
we've done calls.

You know ranges, but for every
one of one I definitely have a

relationship with the artist.

And I have relationships with a
whole lot of artists that I

haven't bought from and a whole
lot of artists that I own

editions from, and it's, you
know, I do fear that it's

cliched, we're still early, but
that's actually true.

If you talk about TAM, the total
addressable market, it's, you

know, billion plus people,
without a doubt, versus the

actual market today.

Let's be generous and say it's
like a quarter million people.

And then, if you pull it down to
Twitter, you know there's a

couple hundred thousand people
on Twitter that are in this

space, but then there's probably
a hundred thousand maybe that

are regularly active
participants, not just, you know

, not just kind of flies on the
wall just observing, but they're

actually posting.

And then you pull it down even
further and you start talking

about one of one artists and
their collectors who are

prolific, well-known collectors,
and now we're down to being

probably generous, 25,000 people
, yeah, and it's really easy to

form connections and find people
when your pool of people is

25,000 people.

You know so, as we grow and as
more people enter the space and

start collecting crypto art, I
worry that some of that

closeness will disappear just to
the size of the market and the

number of people that are trying
to speak within the social

circle at the same time.

But if you're here now and
you're building those

relationships now, you're in a
really, really good place to

maintain those relationships,
because I would be willing to

bet I mean, we've seen it If you
bought a piece from ACK last

year, well, you now own a piece
from a Christie selling artist.

Yes, and you know so.

If you're here now, you're in a
really good place to not only

collect amazing work but to form
relationships with artists who

are going to be very well known
in a more general sphere in the

next couple of years.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's
you know, like.

So here's the thing I obviously
these FTX, the FTX meltdown and

all of these just crazy events
that are happening set this

space back I feel like a couple
of years.

And you know, I almost kind of
like, selfishly, I want this

space to grow, but or I'm so
like I really want this space to

grow, but selfishly I'm just
like you know what, if this gets

set back another two years,
like right now, I'm kind of okay

with it because I get to vibe
with these people a little bit

more.

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I mean, I
understand, like you know, you

do want this space to grow, not
just because of art and because

you want to see your artist
friends successful and because

you know, maybe you're buying
some art because you want to

sell it in a couple of years and
you think that by growing this

space it'll go up in value.

Not just for that.

But I think, if you're here,
you also probably have an

understanding of how
revolutionary the technology can

be and you see some of the
things that not just crypto art,

but the NSP technology and
blockchain technology can do for

the world.

I think you see the potential
there and so, yeah, you want it

to grow.

But, yeah, I totally get it,
it's like all right when it

grows.

It's not like we can keep the
douchebags out.

You know several, and this is
what happens when things become

popular, a little bit of that
initial community tends to get

lost and then people start
telling you that you're being

elitist and blah, blah, blah.

And I hate to say that, but I
know that we're going to go

through that at some point.

But yeah, I mean, I understand
I want it to grow desperately

for a lot of reasons, but I'm
very much enjoying the vibe that

we've got right now.

Speaker 2: I really am too, and
I mean the space has already

changed from even just like when
I came in about a year and a

half ago, and that was honestly
super comfy.

That was one of my favorite
times.

But, yeah, the space has grown
a lot since.

But it's this weird nuance
thing of it's a double edged

sort of it's growth is a
consequence of success, and so I

wanted to piggyback off
something you said there.

I wanted to ask you a question
outside of I feel like you've

probably given this some thought
is outside of crypto art and

some of the digital identity
profile pictures that were like

that we all flex.

What's your most exciting use
case of NFTs?

What would you like to see this
technology be applied to?

That could solve a lot of
problems.

Speaker 3: How long is this
episode?

Speaker 2: It could be as long
as you want, man All right, so I

wrote a thread about it.

Speaker 3: If you check out my
pin tweet I've got.

I break down all my threads
into categories and the first

category is called Web 3.

Within that category there's a
thread called something along

the lines of how NFTs and crypto
will save the world, and it's a

very long thread.

It's like I don't know 60, 70
tweets and it really digs into a

lot of things that I think NFTs
and crypto can do.

But realistically, when you
think about the two related

technologies, right so, and then
NFTs are a second technology

and they're both built on top of
blockchain.

When you think about all three
of these, it's the magic of them

, and the magic of them are a
couple of things.

First, there is provable
digital ownership of digital

assets.

Second is transparency like
radical transparency.

And then third is the immutable
nature of transactions, and

there are a lot of other pieces
to it, but those three things

are defining characteristics.

So what you have to do to think
about how NFTs and crypto and

blockchain technology will
change the world is think about

where can you take any one of
those and or combination of them

and apply them to problems that
exist today.

So a really easy one with my
background as a lawyer is real

property records.

So real property records in the
United States are just an

absolute mess.

They're recorded in the county
clerk's offices of each

individual county and you got to
go to the county website to

look them up.

And half the time you can look
them up, you actually have to go

to the county clerk's office
and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Just total panning out.

So what if it wasn't that way?

What if there was something
like a blockchain explorer that

was worldwide or all real
property, and you could pull up

the owner of any piece of real
property simply by knowing the

address, which you can do today?

If you know the address, you go
to the county clerk's office,

you can find out who owns it.

And you might be saying privacy
, privacy, privacy.

Well, the way that you deal
with that is that you just put

the property into an LLC or
something.

How easy.

How much better is the real
estate market, the real estate

transactions, the lending
process, if all real property

ownership is stored on chain?

So there's one use case that I
don't know the timing and it's

hard for me to even guess
because there are so many

entrenched interests, but I am
100% certain that at some point,

real property records are going
to move out of these archaic,

literal file cabinets with file
numbers into.

I certainly hope it's not a
private database, I really hope

but they're going to be
digitized and it's going to be

universal.

I certainly hope that it is a
blockchain and they're going to

be stored as an NFT.

So what else does that do?

Theoretically, if I wanted to,
if I knew your address, I could

steal the title of your property
simply by creating a fake deed,

a fake notary stamp and going
and filing it, and then I've

just created a bunch of legal
headaches for you that you're

going to have to deal with.

Wow.

Speaker 2: What is that?

Let me real quick does that
happen a lot.

Speaker 3: I don't know how
often it happens, but I do know

that it does happen.

I've seen it happen before,
I've had to deal with the issue

before, and it's a lawsuit.

You get to file a lawsuit to
quash title.

It's a total pain in the ass.

Well, what if it wasn't
possible to do that?

Because the deed is an NFT
token that if you want to, if

you want to store it on your
ledger, you absolutely can.

That's cool.

But maybe instead of storing it
on your ledger, you use a

custodian.

I'm sure that Bank of America
and Chase Bank and all the giant

banks are going to come up with
custodial solutions at some

point and in order for them to
transfer it, you're going to

have to sign a transaction and
then they're going to have to

sign a transaction, so it'll be
a multi-stake custodial process.

But now that crime is gone,
which doesn't exist- because no

one can forge the NFT that
represents title to your home.

So there's one area let's talk
about another area that I'm

pretty confident about Card
titles.

So card titles are literally
pieces of paper, yeah yeah, and

they don't tell you anything
Like.

If you sell a car today in the
state of Texas, you're going to

sign physical car title and
you're going to give it to the

person and on the back of it,
when you sign it, I think it

asks you for the current
odometer reading.

That's basically it.

It's got the color of the car,
make, model, vin number, current

odometer reading when you sell
it.

What if your car title was an
NFT but the metadata got updated

every time you got service and
it got updated every time you

got into a wreck and had to have
body work done to the car.

How powerful is that for buyers
to be able to see actual

pictures of the actual car on
the title, with current

information on service records,
with current information on

whether the car's been in a
wreck or not.

And you might say, whoa, whoa,
whoa X.

You can always go to Carfaxcom
or whatever.

Yeah, you can, but you have to
pay for it.

Why shouldn't that?

Why shouldn't all of that
information that's already being

gathered just be appended to
the metadata on your NFT car

title, and it's the same
question about storage of that

title is the same thing.

Do you store it on your own
ledger?

Yeah, sure you could.

Or you could put it within a
custodial service from one of

the giant banks, or I'm sure
that, if you're looking for an

idea for a new startup,
listeners create a really really

good digitally native custodial
service for NFTs.

There is a huge, huge need in
the coming years for that, and I

think that part of the reason
that people will find a lure in

the crypto space and blockchain
space and NFTs spaces because of

a distrust of banks.

So you probably have a good
opportunity to compete, to

create a competitive product
with something that they're

going to create, but you have
the leg up on not being them.

Speaker 2: So, yeah, Simply by
that Exactly.

No, I like that, I know it and
like I'm glad you showed me that

thread.

You've clearly given this a lot
of thought and I want to play

another side of this coin.

So one of the biggest
challenges like that like when I

you know, when I preach the
gospel of NFTs and blockchain to

people is a lot of like the
there's a, there's a mindset

shift when it comes to owning,
like not your keys, not your

crypto.

It's a great meme, it's like
super powerful and there's this

really strong sense of ownership
.

But, you know, especially as
someone with two ledgers and you

know every my seed phrase
backed up like on a steel

titanium plate, but like that is
a very kind of like nerve

wracking process.

It's very empowering, but also
like did I fuck that up?

Do I really have my keys after
I burn the paper?

You know there's there's a
there's there's definitely a

learning curve when it comes to
full ownership, and one of the

challenges is it like getting
people to take responsibility.

That is going to be a big
challenge.

But also, with last year, how
many like?

You know I'm going to I'm going
to use the best example,

because it was the meme of 2021.

But how many board Apes got
socially engineered to giving up

their seed phrase, you know?

And it was like it was a lot,
you know.

So I think that's like I I
agree with you on every point

and like the challenge that I
just can't see past.

Or, like you know, and maybe
I'm just not seeing it the

correct way, or maybe I'm
thinking about the correct way,

or maybe I'm just like thinking
way too far out of something

that hasn't been built yet, but
it's like, how do we get, how do

we beef up like security
services for people that own

their own keys and these non
custodial you know, people that

want to be non custodial with it
een.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean.

So at one point I owned a
mutant ape.

I bought a mutant ape at the
end of December of 21 and sold

it, actually like just before
NFT NYC, just a couple weeks

before.

But I spent a lot of time.

I spent almost no time on
Discord, but I did spend some

time in the private channel of
the BAYC Discord and I cannot

tell you how many people I
helped with security issues Like

I can't even keep track.

It was.

These people owned assets worth
you know hundreds of thousands

of dollars and, right, we're
like how do I get my, my seed

phrase out of metamask?

And I'm just like, oh god,
please, first let's let's solve

these problems.

But what this is is because of
how NFT's were in the news.

It attracted a user base that
likes to experiment and some of

that user base is not the most
technologically savvy group of

people.

And that's okay, there's,
there's nothing wrong with that.

Because, right, most of the
world isn't like you and me.

I have two ledgers that I use
now.

I've got my seed phrases in
multiple places.

None of them have ever hit a
digital device in any form or

fashion.

You know I'm actually about to
do what you do and put them on

to metal plates, but right now
they're handwritten on laminated

material, stored in a you know,
in my physical bank vault.

Right, most people aren't
willing to do that, and so I do

believe that there is gonna be a
huge need for the custodial

services.

They're trustworthy.

But you raise a great question.

Your question wasn't how do we
deal with and when I think about

these things, my mom is gonna
be 75, and in March I think

about these things from how
would my mom use it, right, yep?

And so the answer for her is
never gonna be hey, mom, let's

take the title to your car and
put it on to this device, and

what you have to do is you have
to plug it into your computer.

And oh, no, wait, that's the
wrong kind of USB cable.

You need this one.

No, I know that's a USB cable,
but that's not that.

Just give it to me.

You know that's not the answer
right.

Yeah, the answer for those
people is gonna be really

trustworthy custodians.

But for people like you and me,
we're fine.

We're fine.

There's big yeah, there's a big
group that is closer to us than

to my mom, that won a
self-custody, especially after

seeing FTX and that sort of
thing oh my god, yeah, and but

they don't have the discipline
or the time or the knowledge or

whatever to get where we're at
and that's fine, right.

So I think that and I
unfortunately I can't remember

the name of them, but I think
that there are some products

that are coming soon and that
are in development now that

allow for, you know, multiple
signers, basically as backups to

your self-custody, to wallets.

There's gonna be a solution
there.

There will be a solution of you
have your own ledger and you

are custodian your keys through
your ledger, but somebody else

will actually hold your seed
phrase, your private key, for

you to be released to you if you
lose your ledger or break it.

You know, and like, honestly,
that might be a great place for

law firms.

Law firms do things like that
all the time they will.

Oh trust documents and release
them at certain, you know, at

certain times, and that sort of
thing.

Sure, so there's, there are
gonna be solutions for every

user class, from the my mom user
class to you and me and

everybody in between, based on
their level of sophistication

and comfort with self-custody.

But yeah, you know,
self-custody is, without a doubt

, something that almost
everybody should do.

If you've got any significant
amount of crypto, you really

need to learn how to use a
hardware wallet.

If you have, like, significant
crypto, you need to learn how to

use a multi-sig like you can
actually save something like

that, because, remember, sbf is,
you know, obviously a pariah

and he's always been a, you know
, a fraudster, etc.

And you know he's stole a bunch
of money, right, we know that

today, yep, but two months ago,
no, no, shame on them.

People were saying, hey, look,
this is one of the best places.

If you're not gonna, if you're
not gonna self-custody, this is

one of the best places to put
your money.

Wow, and we know how that
turned out.

And so you know, like, if
you're bounded and determined to

keep your crypto on an exchange
, the only thing that I can say

is I mean, there's two things I
would say to you one okay, but

learn how to at least learn how
to use hardware wallet.

At least learn how to
self-custody.

And then the other thing I
would say to you is use a US

based exchange that is actually
regulated.

Right, you know, use Coinbase,
or I think Gemini is US based,

then Kraken's US based.

Use one of those.

And if they're publicly traded,
even better, because then

they've they've got all sorts of
reporting requirements.

Yeah, oh yeah, you know,
because, as we've seen, ftx used

the I think it was, quote the
first metaverse accounting firm

to do its audits and I thought
it turned out to be trash.

So you know, whereas if you're
Coinbase and you're a public

company, if you go hire, you
know, scrub all audit firm out

of the Bahamas to do your audits
.

I'm actually on the FCC side on
this one, which is rare for

anybody that knows me.

The SEC is gonna be like no,
that is not sufficient for your

10k and your 10q.

You know they're gonna expect
you to hire a big five that's

right, that's right, I mean.

Speaker 2: So you actually, yeah
that I mean that's.

It's been wild to watch all of
this unfold and I think, for me,

one of the biggest challenges
that, like people can't as

people tend to like lump crypto
and NFTs and are in all of this

stuff all into one thing and
they see this like thing with

SPF happen and then like, oh
well, yeah, I told you crypto is

a scam and it's like, no, this
is furthers the case for self,

you know, like, but it's like
you can't separate that to the

average person who hasn't done
the research, you know so let's

talk about that for a second.

Speaker 3: Yes, so Celsius, tara
and Luna FTX all of these

things have failed.

And if, if you follow me for a
long time, you you know that I

tend to post really positive
things.

I try and have a very positive
outlook.

Yep, and over the last couple
of weeks, my tweets have been

not quite as positive.

Yeah, and the reason that they
haven't been as positive is

because I didn't get hurt in any
of these.

I didn't lose a single penny in
any of these things.

Right, but every one of these
failings is being spun as a

failure of crypto and a failure
of DeFi, and that's black,

fucking wrong.

Every single meltdown has been
a failure and outright fraud of

a centralized authority, not of
decentralization.

Yep, and yet it is being spun
by the media and by regulated

regulators and lawmakers, as we
have to protect people from DeFi

and from crypto.

No, you need to protect people
from fucking frauds, you know,

and it's very frustrating for me
, yeah.

Speaker 2: I, I would agree, man
, and I think that you know I'm

on, I'm in the camp of if we
actually had better length, if

we had no, not better language,
but we, if we just had language

in general about what crypto is
classified is and what entities

are classified are, and making
making the process more

desirable to open up an exchange
in the US with fair regulation

and fair protection, I feel like
some of this, a lot of this,

would be mitigated.

Like you know, out of all the
exchanges I mean, I have to say

number one I try like Coinbase
was the first is the only

exchange I've ever bought from.

You know, like it there's and
especially after watching the

doc I'm not sure if you watch
the documentary on Amazon, if

you, if not, you should like
it's like.

It's like, I guess, like ten
dollars to buy or three and a

half dollars to rent, but it was
super interesting watching how,

how much like Brian, how Brian,
number one, how Brian and Fred

actually started Coinbase, but
what they continue to do to try

to play by the laws or play by
the rules that are already in

place, and what they're trying
to do for the industry as a

whole and what they're lobbying
for it's super.

It's.

It's super like it instills a
lot of confidence and it to me,

it's like the people who could
make the decision to make it

more appealing for exchanges to
be in the US are doing what you

just said, which is I totally
agree with, is that they're

spinning it.

Well, this is why it's bad.

It's like, well, you know what,
if you know, maybe like he's a

fraud, like SPF now is a
fraudster in general.

But you know, if we didn't have
such strict laws to push them

away, if we had, you know, we
didn't really have anything to

provide clarity for these
exchanges.

You know, he, there's obviously
reasoning when to go start in

the Bahamas, you know, but what
if we had better like?

What if we had a better
landscape to do that here?

And I just think that this is
just the complete wrong attitude

by some of these lawmakers to
you're just looking at the

complete wrong way, especially
with Elizabeth Warren, with like

her and Gensler.

They never miss a, they never
miss an opportunity.

They never miss an opportunity
to slam this industry.

Speaker 3: Oh, man, you're, here
, you're, you're hitting like

all of the piss.

Ex lawyer off buttons.

Sorry, man no, no, no.

So in my pen tweet web three
section, there is a thread

called something along the lines
of why the United States sucks

a crypto regulation part one.

I have not yet written part two
.

Part one, though, is
specifically about the SEC and,

yeah, gary Gensler, and it
basically makes the argument

that he sucks a crypto
regulation because he wants to

kill crypto.

You have to remember that Gary
was a he's a Goldman Sachs alum

worth I didn't know that 40
million dollars, his personal

wealth and he has a, has a lot
of friends in traditional

finance and the banks.

And just read the thread,
because I don't want to read the

thread and and think about what
the arguments that have set

forth there.

Part two, which I have not
written, will eventually be

about Elizabeth Warren, and
basically the problem there is

that she thinks she has to
protect people from themselves

all the time and she thinks that
people are too stupid to make

their own decisions, and I just,
I just reject that, that view

of the world.

I think that you know,
sometimes people are gonna make

decisions and they're gonna get
a lot of times.

They're gonna learn something
from getting out by them and a

lot of times people are gonna
make really good decisions that

they wouldn't otherwise be able
to make if you told them you're

too dumb to do this, you, we
have to protect you from

yourself, and so I just I, yeah,
I mean, that's that's kind of

what I think on it and you know,
ultimately I think that for a

whole lot of reasons, one of
which is that at least today,

over the past probably decade or
decade and a decade and a half

the United States government has
become more and more divided

and is fundamental,
fundamentally broken in being

able to pass most laws of really
need.

We have had a you've seen a
just a complete, not a failure

by our lawmakers to pass
reasonable, clear laws.

We're crypto that will protect
consumers through proper

disclosure and proper disclosure
does not mean registering

securities and following all
securities regulations through

ensuring that exchanges are
required to have one-to-one

reserves or everything that are
there's deposited by consumers,

and that exchanges are not
allowed to loan out those

reserves without explicit
permission and are never allowed

to loan those reserves to their
affiliates.

I think that there are a lot of
things that we could pass that

would be very beneficial laws
regarding the minimum exceptions

for exchanging tokens for
purposes of taxation.

You know, there's a complete
and utter lack of clarity and

there's not a lack of clarity
just doesn't make a whole lot of

sense.

The IRS's position is anytime
you exchange one token for

another, it's taxable event.

Anytime you exchange the for a
piece of art, it's taxable event

, etc.

And if you're gonna use it as a
unit of accounts, that doesn't

make a whole lot of sense.

And so you know we could pass
reasonable laws.

We have with the United States
has passed, and I'll give you

one that I know intimately the
United States bankruptcy code

for the 2005 amendments is one
of the most brilliant pieces of

legislation ever crafted.

It was written by three guys
who deeply understood the goals

and purposes of bankruptcy, and
it is brilliant.

We could do the exact same
thing as crypto.

We could get 10 people in a
room, tell them what our goals

are and let them craft beautiful
legislation.

But today we live in a
political system is highly

divided and that is I'm gonna
use the word infected, and I

mean it like it.

Yeah it was infected by special
interest money, and so I don't

have high hopes that we're gonna
end up where we could, and it's

it's unfortunate, it it?

What we risked here is seeing
the United States fall behind on

an innovation that was yep with
the rest of the world, due to a

lawmakers failure to pass
reasonable legislation that was

my.

Speaker 2: That was my next
question that you already

answered.

Yeah, because that, to me, is
what that spells out, is that

you know, if we don't, we don't
do something, if we don't pass

awful, like you know,
legislation and regulation, then

yeah, that's what's gonna
happen.

And that would be a really sad
day because I, like I've you

know, granted, I've not done as
much research as I, probably I

just don't, quite frankly, don't
have the time.

But you know, from what I've
seen and maybe I should make

more time but is like I've seen
our government's efforts, like,

oh, yeah, we're gonna do a CBDC.

I'm like, oh, that's what we're
focusing on, versus writing

thoughtful legislation for some
of the technology we currently

have, we're just trying to copy
China let me jump in on the CBDC

issue.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, of
course I read a thread about

that.

The title of that thread is
something along the lines of

CBDCs are the most effective
means of controlling activity

other than violence, something
like that.

I can't remember exactly.

So that's a powerful title.

Well, it's a.

It's a scary subject matter, if
you yeah that's what a CBDC is

central bank digital currency.

It is a blockchain based
digital currency intended to be

used as a legal tender and a
European Union of Accounts.

So it's a digital dollar, right
?

Except it has all of the
arguable benefits of something

like theorem programmability,
transparency, the ability to use

.

When I say programmability, I
mean things like smart contracts

.

It has all of those things.

When you talk about something
that's decentralized, like

Ethereum, those are
unquestionably benefits.

You know, transparency lets you
just check the chain that's

just chained in.

That's there's your truth,
right?

Yep, you can have self settling
sales.

For example, you could go and
buy a piece by Sam Spratt for a

quarter million dollars the
equivalent in Ethereum and you

don't have to have an escrow
agent or a middleman or anything

like that.

You can self settle that sale
automatically.

Right, those are incredibly
powerful benefits.

When you centralize those
things within the confines of

government, then those benefits,
in my view, become incredible

risk to users, especially the
you know kind of.

The last couple of days, people
have been talking about AI and

its ability to generate text.

Speaker 2: Right, yep, yep yep,
that's been wild to watch yep.

Speaker 3: So the way that that
works is that I mean voluminous

pages of text.

We're talking millions and
millions and millions of pages

of text are fed into a computer
that then analyzes them and

creates relationships between
words and that sort of thing,

and then it's able to output
this text that, based on

everything that it's read right.

So part one is looking at a lot
of data and then sentence.

I think it's okay.

So if you take that concept and
you say I don't care about the

text output, I just care about
what the data says, all right,

well, if a centralized authority
like your government knows

every single penny that you
spend and they can set an AI out

to see has this person been
spending money in a way that we

don't like, and they can, yeah,
have an AI discover that for

them.

And then you add programmability
on top of it and say, all right

, well, if choose something
environmental, we don't want.

We, being government, we don't
want people to be able to spend

more than a hundred dollars a
month on meat, because create,

you know, growing the animals,
raising the animals to create me

, creates greenhouse gases and
it's environmentally unfriendly

then that centralized authority
could simply create rules within

the chain that says that if you
spend more than a hundred

dollars a month on me, you can't
see you, just you.

Just the transaction won't go
good, won't go through after

that, right, mm?

so that's, that's and that
that's, that's a pretty easy

example that, like that example,
is not actually that dangerous.

Where it gets really, really
dangerous and I make this point

in the thread I live in we both
live in Texas, right?

Yep, yeah, so over the summer,
the United States Supreme Court

determined that states can make
abortion illegal.

It's not a protected right.

It is not a protected right,
yep.

What if Texas had a line to the
issuing authority to say, hey,

people live within our that are
residents of our state.

We don't want them to be able
to spend money on abortion

services anywhere.

Wow, so now you live in Texas,
that's where your residency is.

Maybe you go to California
because and let's use something

that's you know that most people
, I don't think, would find

offensive because you have found
out that your child is gonna

have a devastating genetic
defect that will significantly

alter both their quality and
quantity of life, to the point

where mm-hmm it would be
difficult to call it a life

right, yeah, yeah.

So you go to California because
you want to terminate that

pregnancy.

If CBDC is where the only unit
of account and Texas had a line

to the issuing authority, texas
could make it so that you

couldn't go anywhere in the
world and terminate that

pregnancy, even though you knew
it was the right thing for you

to do.

To do yeah, it was yeah.

So CBDC is when you think about
where technologies heading,

from an AI perspective, from a
programmability perspective, etc

.

I consider to be one of the
most effective ways of the

government to you and its
policies against your will,

other than violence.

Speaker 2: Man, that is supposed
to be fun, right.

Speaker 3: Your whole audience
is going to be listening to this

and be like shit man.

I thought I was in for a fun
ride with a collector who's

going to talk about art and now
he's telling me that the

government's trying to ruin my
life.

Speaker 2: But you know what I
feel like it.

I feel like these conversations
need to be had.

Man Like you know what I mean,
like that because, yeah, wow,

because I've thought about it.

I just I think about it more in
the sense of you know, of like

how China is currently doing it,
and I'm like man like that.

You know what they're currently
doing and how their governments

run.

That, to me, is like where CB
like that's like, to me, the

behavior like decision, that's
like where CBDCs like can lead

us to, you know, where it's like
absolute and utter control.

And that is just a scary
thought.

And speaking of threads, when I
first the thread I actually

reference and I actually helped,
I shared with a friend, was

6529s, like the freedom to
transact.

You know the right to transact
and like what that actually

means.

That one completely shifted my
perspective, especially with

that was happening with all the
CB Chalkers and Canada CB.

Chalkers and Canada.

Yeah, exactly, and that was one
of the first real eye opening

moments where I was like holy
shit, like that's what we're

building against.

You know, that is where it was
like a real world example that I

could finally put two and two
together because, you know, and

again, I'm still like learning
and growing about the world, as

you know, I just might, like I'm
still in my first apartment,

you know, or a second apartment,
and so learning all of this

without having previous
knowledge of how things were

done in the past, is very
interesting to be learning about

this, while everything is just
an absolute and utter turmoil,

you know.

And so all of these concepts
and principles that you know,

crypto is built on, I'm like,
okay, cool, this sounds good,

this feels good, you know, but
where's the example, you know,

like, where's like that tangible
, like moment, or where's that

moment in time where this, you
know, where this would have been

a better solution to have?

And that was the first one
where I was like, oh, that's

clear, it's cut and dry, like
that was absolutely horrendous

what happened.

So, I know, I think this
deserves to be like, you know,

this deserves to have a stage
and I think it's something of

real substance.

You know that needs to be
talked about because, especially

in a market like this, this is
where I learned how to build my

conviction.

You know, like I learned how to
build my conviction in a down

market, you know, even though
people had made that sale, like

it was still kind of a down
market and still until like June

or July, and that's really
where a lot of the noise makers

had kind of, you know, left the
space and it was kind of quiet

and people were just like in
this I had this vibe of just

like sharing ideas and talking
about real world things and

having healthy debates.

You know, that was really, that
was really attractive.

So I think that, you know,
while this is historically an

art podcast, you know, or like a
podcast that has a lot of

artists on and all the questions
are typically geared towards

art, I think it's a really good,
you know, thing that people

should at least noodle on and
maybe go read.

You know, one of your threads on
, myself included.

So I don't know, man, I
appreciate it and I'm glad we

kind of went in that direction,
because I hadn't really talked

about this since it's happened
and so it's been very.

I think I was just kind of
waiting for the right person who

you know had some thoughts, had
some opinions, had some very

weighted, you know, opinions
based on experience, you know to

have this conversation with.

So no, I genuinely appreciate
it, man.

Speaker 3: I appreciate that.

I mean 6529, if you don't
follow him, you should.

His threads are, without a
doubt, the most important

threads that are written on a
lot of these topics, and you

know, the art is beautiful I
collect it but the technology

that powers them is extremely
important, and I really think

that we're at a crossroads right
now and we'll be at this

crossroads for a couple of years
, and in one direction.

The technology is a powerful
and freeing equalizing force

that helps those who have not
been able to transact in a

traditional finance model, that
have been ignored by the giant

entrenched companies worldwide,
to find financial, economic and

social freedom.

That's one path.

That's the path that that's
really hoped that we go down.

Yeah, the other direction now
is very scary.

It is a direction where we
still end up using blockchain.

That's inevitable, I think.

Speaker 2: Right yeah.

Speaker 3: But the transparency
of blockchain, combined with the

power of AI and the continually
divisive nature of our

political systems, created
dystopia for many, where they

have less freedom, less money
and less power.

And we're right there, man.

We're right at a place where we
have to pick collectively which

way we want to go, and if we
are not careful and we just sit

back and we let people that are
in power do what they want to do

, there's a real risk that we're
going to go the wrong direction

, and I don't even blame them
for those decisions.

They think that they've always
had the power.

They've always had the power to
control the monetary system, to

control the economy, et cetera,
and you know what, throughout

the course of human history,
they've done a pretty good job

of it.

If you look at our world today
and leave all of the dystopia

stuff I'm talking about, if you
live in the United States of

America, wherever you are
doesn't matter.

If you're in a tiny little town
, you can buy damn near anything

inside of a week, right?

Yeah, there truly is.

It truly is an amazing world.

And so they think, hey, you
know what?

We've done a good job so far.

Let's keep doing it.

And the only way to keep doing
it is to maintain our power, but

I think that discounts how the
vice that the world has become

and the risk, the very real risk
, that somebody that you

vehemently disagree with and
that does not have your best

interest at heart will get their
hands on the code and be able

to use it to effectuate
incredible control, the likes of

which has never been seen.

So we have to collectively make
a decision and I hope that we

make to make a better world, a
more free world, a more equal

world, and not one that is under
incredible scrutiny and control

from governments.

So you want to talk about art
now?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to
say I feel like that's a great

way to.

I feel like, because I was
going to ask how can we do that?

And I still may ask that
question towards the end when we

wrap it up, but that to me.

So I'll tell you this there was
a friend.

This would be a great
transition because there was a

friend when I'm trying to
explain to him what this

technology is and what I'm doing
with it and how I'm yeah, just

literally what I'm doing with it
, and it was like, yeah, but

Kyle, there's so much going on
in the world and how do you just

remain so positive about what
you're doing and how do you stay

so happy and how do you just
truly believe in this?

And I said, well, number one is
I stopped watching the news

probably 10 years ago, like
local news, because there was

number one it was nothing but
bad things and violence and just

like I'm like this is awful, I
don't want to watch this.

But number two is that I chose
to affect an area, that I chose

an industry where I could have a
positive outcome in, and to me,

that is giving people a stage
to like share their story,

because this world is driven by
stories.

This world is driven by stories
, it's driven by creativity,

it's driven by art.

We can lump that all into one
because art tells stories.

And I said, this is where I
choose to have the biggest

impact and this is where I
choose to put all my efforts,

because what I'm doing here may
not directly change what's

happening, but it could be the
catalyst to help someone go

change or to help someone who
has more experience to go change

, to make that positive change.

But I just choose to play
around and talk and vibe with

people that really love
technology, really love art, and

I feel like outside of my IRL
community that I built here in

Austin, and these are the nerds
that I always was searching for.

This is my tribe man and I
wouldn't have it any other way.

But let's talk about some of the
reasons.

I don't know.

I have my own reasons why I
collect and I'm going to share

those, but I'd like to.

I'll segue that into yours in a
second, but for me I'll tell

you I almost like the way I look
at this is that I almost try to

tell my own story through the
art that I buy.

I try to buy art that shares a
current thing that I'm going

through.

Usually it's super emotional,
so I buy very.

I bought some of Lord Neutron's
pieces and Irfron's pieces and

something, things that are
really expressive, where it's

like, damn, it almost helps me
heal in a way, through whatever

I'm going through.

So I like to tell a story.

I like to tell my own story
through buying art from a bunch

of different artists and
curating that all-in-one spot.

So I'm sure there's a lot to go
off of there.

But what is what is one of the
like how do you go about

collecting?

Like, what is it that you enjoy
about it?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean,
realistically, the primary.

Most of the time not all the
time, but most of the time the

primary question that I ask
myself when I'm buying a piece

is would I be proud to show this
in my home?

Do I want to display this so
that when my friends come over

they see it on my wall and
they're like dude, that's an

awesome piece.

What is this?

Tell me more about it.

I collect art that I love, that
I want to display, that I want

to own, that I want to show off.

So that's like the base
question almost all the time,

yeah.

And then, if I'm really
starting to like, if I'm going

to buy an expensive piece you
know, because you can easily do

that with the dish I'm just like
, hey, I like this, I buy with

this, it's a hundred bucks, I'm
going to do it right, yeah, but

if I'm going to buy a piece
that's two, three, four, eight,

whatever, then I think about it
a little bit more and one of the

questions that I ask myself is
do I believe that this artist

has created a unique voice?

And so if you look at some of
my one of the ones you get like

King's Erocks.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I was looking
at his piece there.

Speaker 3: Yeah, there are a lot
of glitch artists, excellent

glitch artists, but nobody tells
a story with a single image.

Wipe the way that he does.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: So that's, that's one
of the questions that I ask

myself.

And I ask myself a question
about quality.

When you've looked at enough
art hopefully some of it

physical art enough times, then
you get to get, you start to get

a sense of quality, and what I
mean by this.

Everybody listening has watched
a lot of TV and movies, a lot

of TV and movies.

Right, yeah, you can put it on
a show or a movie and you can

sit back and be like, wow, this
is really well made.

Or you might go, it's
something's off.

You know the quality is just
obviously not there, the acting

is not great or whatever.

So I ask myself questions about
quality, those two questions

factored with the do I vibe with
this?

Do I want to show this to
people?

If it doesn't get past that
that question, by the way, the

other two questions don't matter
.

If I don't love it, even if I
think that it is a great quote,

unquote investment, I'm not
buying it.

So, artist's work I own
Congratulations.

I actually do love your work,
but if I'm trying to buy a piece

that I think and I have zero
intent to sell any of my pieces

in any reasonable short-term
period of time you know I buy

for a decade or longer, Hold
Gotcha, Gotcha.

But if I'm buying a piece
that's a couple of years and I

think, hey, you know what,
someday I might sell this and it

would be nice to sell this for
a profit.

Those are the other two
questions that I ask myself when

I'm evaluating whether I want
to pull the trigger or not Got

it.

Speaker 2: I like that, yeah,
and see, I'm still in an

additions mindset towards like
you know, I don't have as much

money for one of ones yet, you
know.

So I'm still in that different,
like there's a different

mindset for additions versus one
of ones, and I really like how

you broke that down On the one
of one side, though, like, at

what point do you so have you?

Let me ask this have you bought
a significant or a one of one

that's been, say, two ETH
without interacting with the

artist, or do you make that like
a point to do that and get to

know them and build that
relationship?

Speaker 3: I don't think I've
ever spent more than a quarter

ease without interacting with
the artist.

Got it, Got it.

I'm thinking about it, and for
a lot of reasons.

One I want to get to know them
to.

Sometimes I ask questions about
the process, not because I'm

into.

I saw somebody recently who got
very offended that somebody

asked a question about the
process.

And it's not because I'm trying
to see, like, did you spend

enough time as this hard enough?

It's because I'm the kid that
really love to watch how that,

how they make that or whatever
the show is called on Saturday

morning, Like I like to see how
they and I'm just like dude,

that's so cool.

So I like to ask questions.

And then you know, frankly, I
hate options, Absolutely hate

them.

Speaker 2: They're stressful man
.

Well.

Speaker 3: I don't know, I think
someone's I've participated in

their stressful and I lost some
options to people that have

immediately listed for a flip
and that's, they're right,

that's fine, that's, that's
totally they're right.

But I don't like losing that
way and I tend to do if I'm

going to buy a significant piece
, I tend to try and do it as a

print sale.

I don't want to have to deal
with it, I don't want, and you

know, frankly, I'm cognizant of
the fact that I've got a lot of

followers and if I start an
auction and then the artist

posts about it which is totally
cool, you know, like definitely

I want to see artists succeed,
but I'm cognizant of the fact

that that might trigger somebody
to bid who was not interested

before and like I'm not buying
because somebody else bought,

I'm buying because I like it,
and so if I can avoid the stress

and just kind of all of that
bullshit, then I will.

And so I think every piece that
I have that was an ethermal one

was done on a private sale.

Speaker 2: I like that approach
I mean, I've heard D's do that

too.

You know where he'll create
like just a, he'll spin up a

wallet or anonymous wallet to do
things like that too, because

he's talked about that as well
is that you know what there's.

There's that, there's that
theory of mimetics, you know,

and if this person's signaling
you know interest, then it's

just going to bring out that
competitive nature in humans.

And that's why, to me, I think
this industry is really

intriguing, because it's so
multifaceted and there's so many

different types of.

There's a couple of personality
types that, like are honestly

required to make this, you know,
space move forward.

But, like, artists typically
have different mindsets than

collectors, do you know?

And then there's the flipper
like.

Then there's like the people
who collect long term and then

the people that flip short term,
and everyone has this weird

role to play.

But all of the motives and all
of the behaviors are quite

different, and that is what like
has always fascinated me.

I can't remember who tweeted
this.

I think it was Jebus J or
something.

I can't remember who it was,
but he was like.

Artists are like.

You have this like, super like.

Oh, I just want people to buy,
buy the art, because they want

to connect with the art, but
also artists.

When they get an auction, smash
that fucking auction button.

Share, retweet, like, get your
vids in.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that
was him and it was like a bear

tear guy.

I saw that yeah a little bit.

You know which.

You know.

Let's talk about something that
is rarely acknowledged.

If somebody is an artist in
this space, they're in business,

they.

They have a business to sell
art and there's nothing wrong

with acknowledging that.

And so, you know, I often see
people like I don't want to show

, I don't want to show, you know
to, you're not showing your

advertising.

There's nothing wrong with
advertising.

Now, don't do it in an annoying
way.

Don't, don't slide into my DMs
if we've never interacted before

to be like hey, thought you
might want to see this piece,

and it's some piece that you met
it like six months ago that's

never sold.

That is completely different
from anything that I've ever

collected before.

You know, don't, don't do that.

Don't, don't do that to anybody
.

That's annoying, you know.

Don't.

Don't look at one of my threads
or somebody else's thread or

post about, like you know, cbdcs
, for example, and they'd go hey

, by the way, have you seen this
piece?

No, that's the wrong place.

Okay, that is.

That's the equivalent of those
YouTube intervideo, unskippable

ads that you're like they were
just about to give me the last

step on cooking the chicken,
right, and then you get forced

with this minute long video ad
that you can't skip.

That is what that is.

But if you post, you know, on
your own timeline regularly, I

don't.

I don't have a problem with an
artist posting every single day

about a piece that they have
available.

Post other good content too,
though you know.

Speaker 2: You know who does a
really good job of this is

Christopher Shen.

He's one of my favorites on
that and he, he nails that.

I think he's one of the best
examples of that in space,

because it's you hit this like
great point.

I think we've gotten so jaded
on, you know.

It's just like the word
shilling has a has a negative

connotation to it.

But I think, more as this
market matures, I think people

are starting to find the real
life.

If they didn't realize this was
a business before, then they're

starting to realize that they
have to, you know, essentially

operate like a business, or at
least try to figure out how to

do that.

And part of that is, like you
know, especially even in the

beginning with this podcast,
like I barely advertised it at

all and it was like a lot of
eyes didn't ever got on it.

Because of that, you know, and
it's not only do I have to

create the content, but I have
to share it.

I have to be bullish on it.

Because if I'm not bullish on
it, if an artist is not bullish

on their art, why should anyone
else be bullish on the price tag

that they're paying?

You know, why should anyone's
pay money for that if they don't

love it.

But it's this weird human
emotion of like asking for

things or like coming off as too
arrogant or coming off, you

know, when you have good intent.

And my thing also is that like
To add to this conversation is

that I think we need to be more
cognizant and more comfortable

of like not many people have run
this is before and this shit's

really hard.

So like allowing people to make
mistakes to learn in public,

you know to, because that's
that's the only way we grow.

And if you don't know the right
way to do it, then go fuck up

and you'll figure out the right
way to do it.

You know, like obviously don't
be intentionally be an asshole,

you know, but if you had a way
of doing things and someone can

give you some honest feedback or
say, hey, this isn't work and

you have the ability to change
that, I don't know that.

To me, it needs to be more, oh,
accepted or welcomed.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean a
hundred percent.

Look, you learn by making
mistakes.

Yeah, yeah, I am a senior
executive and I've made mistakes

worth tens of thousands of
dollars.

Okay, you know, was it good to
burn the money?

No, but I Learned very
important lessons making those

mistakes.

Right, that it made me better
at what I do.

So don't be afraid to make
mistakes.

But you know, when it I'm an it
, the gateway publisher, right,

I do one drop a month.

I try and do work with artists
who I Only work with artists who

.

I only work with artists whose
work.

I want to.

I like that.

Yeah, the reason that I do one
drop a month is because I don't

want to over saturate it.

I frankly don't have the time
to do more than one and I have a

plan when I go in on my way
into a drop, to add, effectively

, advertise, that drop.

So I drop that drop, starting
about a week out, and I will

feed one image a day, just one
piece, for the first couple of

days until all of them have been
revealed, and then, after all

of them have been revealed, I
will continue posting one once a

day until we get to Drop day.

And I'll probably post twice on
drop day, once in the morning

and then once closer to the drop
, because I know that people use

Twitter at different times.

I know that posts at different
times are more effective and

less effective.

I know that I don't actually
know the the numbers for this

space, but in mature areas there
are well known Numbers for how

many times you have to be in
front of the customer before

they're gonna buy.

Yeah, and the number is never
one you know, unless, unless

maybe it's a toy for a
five-year-old, in which case the

five-year-old's gonna be like I
want that the first time.

That's right, right, but the
number is never be in front of a

customer one time and you're
gonna get the sale.

That is never the answer.

And so by I Know that I've got
about a week a month where I'm

gonna have one post a day.

There's an advertising post.

I know that I'm gonna have
Roughly seven opportunities

eight if you include the second
post that I do on drop day To

get in front of people so they
can see it, and that has worked

quite well for me.

Now, is that how everybody
should do it?

No, it's gonna be different for
everybody, but because I have a

time drop at a Time that I
designate that will run for a

limited period of time that I
think a lot of people are

interested in, because there are
gonna be pieces that are an

auction that can go for you know
a couple of each.

And then there's also, every
single time I've done it,

there's been an affordable piece
, an open edition.

Yep, I need to get in front of
as many potential collectors as

possible, and posting frequently
on a At a good time of day, on

a regular cadence, allows me to
do that.

That is part of the business of
art.

It's why, you know, people bash
the traditional gallery system.

And yes, there are undoubtedly
Galleries that were predatory

and that provided very little to
the artist that they wrote, but

there were also some galleries
that Did a really good job of

helping those artists find
collectors that they would have

not otherwise found.

Yeah, and so if you're an
independent artist and you're

not working with Somebody to
help you, like, with that stuff,

you've got to do it yourself,
and that means Figuring out the

best way for you to market your
own work.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a
lot of ways to do that.

Speaker 3: Absolutely.

I mean, I never do tour spaces
about my drops, hey it's.

It's not something that Either
I have time for or that I really

want to do.

I'll hop on spaces sometimes
but, to be honest, most time

that I jump on a spaces I've had
a couple of drinks and I just

want to.

Yeah, yeah, you know I don't
want to answer a bunch of

questions, yeah, or I don't mind
answering the questions, but

they're gonna be.

You know, maybe not the Best
answers have ever given, right,

and I certainly don't want to do
something that's like super

bland.

But if you're an artist that you
you were not comfortable

writing and you're not
comfortable posting, dude, go do

tour spaces, talk about your
work on on a space.

You know there are a lot of
people that have spaces.

These is a great example.

If you want or fungible, or I
mean there's a bunch of you want

to get on stage and you want to
tell people about a new piece

that you're really excited about
.

I'm a hundred percent sure that
they've got a space coming up

sometime soon that they would be
more than happy to hear about

it and to paint your, your piece
to the, to the space.

So maybe you're out what you're
comfortable doing what you can

commit to and then do that, and
you know that it's something

that you have to do to be able
to sell your work.

Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's
what it is.

It's just selling that, because
I've seen a lot of artist

frustrations around, wanting to
just create and not wanting to

market, you know, and not
wanting to sell and not wanting

to do any of this, and it's like
because it's just hard.

Speaker 3: Well, you know what,
if that's what you want to do,

that's fine.

Yeah, but you got to go find
somebody that will do the other

part for you.

That's right.

It doesn't matter how good your
work is.

Yeah, no one sees it.

And In the right context,
that's right knows that it's

available to know where it's
available to know how much it is

.

If no one sees that, then it
will never sell.

Speaker 2: And there's probably
some, there's probably

throughout the year, has been
thousands of, you know, of just

monumental works that did not
get the record, that, not that

did not get the spotlight they
deserve, probably because that

exact reason 100%, 100%.

Speaker 3: There have been, you
know, fantastic works throughout

history that you know the
creators did not get in front of

the right people at the right
time and if they had done so,

art history would look different
than it does today.

Speaker 2: It's a fascinating
topic to wonder what, if like,

in a different timeline, in a
different universe and a

different reality, a different
simulation, let's call it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: Yeah, what would that
look like?

Well man, I think I'm starting
to get hungry, man, so I'm gonna

start.

Let's start wrapping this up.

This has been this has been a
blast, man.

We've gotten to Literally talk
about everything from Texas to

Two paths that this country and
world could go down, to

Collecting and vibing with art
and just about everything in

between.

Man, but this has been.

This is why I don't plan
questions before my podcast,

because there's no way this
would have happened otherwise.

So this has been a treat, man.

Oh, you know, I know Twitter's
your main, your main like, where

you share all of your
information y'all.

If you're not following XL ear,
please go ahead and do that.

And I did not just shame on me.

I didn't know you had such an
organized Pen tweet.

So please check that out
because that there's a lot of

great content there and I like
how you broke that down, and we

may have to do a part two on On
the US government, won't, once

you come out with your Elizabeth
Warren piece.

You know what?

I do want to add one thing to
this.

Speaker 3: Yeah, something
something I tweeted today.

I've attacked Gary Gensler.

He was a Democratic appointee.

I'm going to write a piece at
some at some point.

I honestly I know it's gonna
really piss me off to write it.

That's why I've been putting it
off.

I'm gonna write for you that
it's gonna use Elizabeth Warren

as an example.

I want to be really clear about
something.

I don't know if I'm gonna be
able to write a piece.

I don't know if I'm gonna be
able to write a piece, an

example.

I want to be really clear about
something.

I don't consider myself a
member of either party and I

believe that both parties have
massive failings.

So please don't take my you
know statements against two

particular people that just
happen to be Democrats, calling

them out for Some of their
failings, as an endorsement of

the republican party.

I think that there are problems
with both parties.

Speaker 2: So this, this needs
bipartisan.

I mean this.

This, this requires skin in the
game on both sides.

To be honest, 100%, yeah,
there's no.

There's no like way.

There's no one party that's
going to be pro.

This is an everyone kind of
thing, something we need to come

together on.

But lastly, dude, I just want
to give you, like giving

opportunities.

Are there any artists you want
to Shout out?

Is there any?

I know you do nifty drops.

Is there anything between now
and then that you'd want to like

?

Maybe have people give a little
, give a little alpha for people

who've stayed for this long.

Speaker 3: All right, well, uh,
don't leak this, because I'm not

actually announcing it until
the fifth Um, but if you're

listening to this on the 12, I
highly suggest that you check

out nifty gateway on the 14th,
for my drop with mine's eye.

Um, there is an open edition
for $99.

The alpha is that you want more
than one, because there is a

burn mechanic for that as well.

Um, I think you're really gonna
like it.

Speaker 2: Big fan of michael, I
got to meet him in new york.

I love you big fan.

Big, big, big fan.

Love that dude.

Thank you, for he does
incredible work.

Speaker 3: Yeah, he does
incredible work and I'm just,

you know.

I'll give you one more piece of
Alpha.

I'm not gonna reveal who, um,
but I already have my artist

booked for january, february,
march and april and, uh, I think

you're all gonna be excited
about them, um, and, and I can,

I can also guarantee you that
there is going to be an

affordable piece with every
single one of them.

Speaker 2: Thank you for what
you dude.

Yeah, I love everything that
you do.

Man, thank you for being a
champion of the space and Like

really caring about him, putting
a lot of thought behind how you

I carry yourself and and the
reputation and the.

It's the legacy that you're,
that you're building here.

Um, it's super inspiring and
these are like you.

You and like d's and funji and
man people like you are like the

type of people I've always
gravitated towards and always

like kind of never found in
communities before this.

So it's again, super, super big
pleasure to have you on.

Man, thank you for spending so
much time with me and going so

in depth with all these Topics
has been fun.

Speaker 3: My absolute pleasure,
man.

It's been, it's been a lot of
fun and I uh, I sincerely

appreciate the compliments, but
I am in fact just a humble human

frog hybrid.

Speaker 2: That's right, man.

Well, hey, I think that's a
great place to end it, um, but

again, thank you so much,
ex-lawyer.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining us for
another episode of the shiller

vaulted podcast.

We hope you enjoyed our
conversation.

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Until next time, this is Boona
signing off.