Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to Vaulted a web 3

podcast series from the Schiller
Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on December 26, 2022 in

Features Fungible co-founder of
Schiller, vibrationally dense

art collector and overall
incredible human being.

We dive into how he found NFTs,
lessons learned from the last

bull market and the impact art
has in his life today.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
investment advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
to discuss With.

That being said, let's dive in
and vibe with Fungi GM.

Speaker 2: Fungi, how are you?

Gm, I'm doing really well,
thanks.

Thanks so much for inviting me
on.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I think
we've been chatting for quite

some time, man, and I'm just
like you know what.

I haven't had a whole lot of
collectors on Fungi.

Just seems like he's one of the
dopest art collectors and I was

like man, the vibe's right and
we get to do a little learning

and get to see the other side of
the coin of a lot of people

that make up this web 3 space.

Speaker 2: Well, thanks, so much
for saying that.

I was just thinking, wow, I'm
grateful for hologram, for not

programming in blushing AI
recognition Because, yeah, it's

just like smiling and blushing
away.

But, yeah, thanks, I really
appreciate the kind words and

love what you do with your
podcast.

You've facilitated some amazing
conversations with some of my

favorite artists in the world
and some really cool builders in

the space.

So, yeah, it's an honor to be
on and long time listener, first

time caller.

Speaker 1: Man, we're going to
coin that.

I love that dude.

That gave me goosebumps.

So I think the feeling is
mutual, man, this space has been

super interesting because I
think my podcasting background

before this was super.

Not like the people that I vibe
with.

There's very select few people
that I've I'd do it with, but

I've never met such a crazy
group of people that I trust,

incredibly, that have the same
type of curiosity and vibe and

just also tenacity.

It's like all business in the
front but it's all like play in

the front but it's like business
in the back.

You know, and like everything,
everyone here is just making

shit happen and so, like I've
always kind of felt crazy for

like just following the vibe.

You know, like totally, that's
literally what this space is

runoff of, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I absolutely
agree.

Like to me, like this space
offers such a massive amount of

opportunity and, as you
mentioned, like connection with

very like minded people.

I think that's a huge part like
the.

You know talent and kindness,
you know optimism.

I think of people in this space
who have kind of given a chance

to take a peek behind the veil.

You know what could possibly be
if, given the two flat and

power structures and you know
function off of like tenets of

centralization and yeah, and
like get rid of a lot of the not

great stuff that we've
arbitrarily and non-consensually

prescribed to since we were
born.

So it's like, yeah, it's a
bunch of people who are like

maybe looking at the world a
little differently and their

futures, who are really fired up
to be here and you know

bringing that energy into
relationship building and

product.

And you know art creating on a
daily basis, which is super dope

.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I love how you
just like rolled off some really

heavy topics of like yeah, we
just like had this shit forced

down our throat.

You know, like we just asked
for it and you just say it.

It's like, yeah, we just
weren't prescribed it, like we

just it's like super nonchalant
way of saying it, man, it's

super, it's super interesting,
man.

And I think that's a great
segue into like how did you like

find out, like about this space
?

Man?

Like what got you curious?

Where did you like, how did you
first learn?

Because this is not, you know,
we're still at, contrary to the

meme, like we're still very
early and none of this is really

super easy.

You know, like once you get it,
you get it.

But it's like the intro and on
ramp, at least for me was like

it took a good like six months
for me to even feel comfortable

making my first transaction.

Speaker 2: For sure, but we're
very much in a bubble or a

minority, in terms of like
conceptualizing or viewing

things as like, where are we on
the spectrum of mass adoption?

Like, we are very early.

You could just like empirically
look at active wallets,

especially active wallets during
a bear market, yeah.

So, yeah, I totally agree.

Yeah, I mean, for me, I had
been aware of crypto for a long

time.

It wasn't super early into
investing in crypto or trading.

I joined, you know, relatively
recently.

I would say like I had, you
know, been picking up crypto and

I could buying here and there.

And then, in 2020, had a really
close friend, someone I always

looked up to as being, you know,
just one of the smartest people

I'd ever met and knew they were
one of the smartest people I'd

ever meet.

And, yeah, I had a really
always had a really interesting

way of seeing the world and
problem solving.

Yeah, using like his
intelligence and creativity to

figure things out.

And I had noticed prior to 2020,
and this is Alex Cosman, by the

way, a founder of NFTX, so
prior to 2020, he'd been

occasionally tweeting and
posting on all social platforms

like by ETH once every some
amount of months, and it always

cracked me up and I was like I
don't know, I wasn't really like

listening, I didn't like engage
him in dialogue.

That much about it was very
much like a spectator for the

most part.

And then in 2020, he was
talking about a lot more.

I saw what he was building with
NFTX, talked to him about punks

specifically and kind of like
the bull thesis of punks that he

wrote like a really or I should
say, co-authored a great essay

on crypto punks and the space
and where it could be going and

was investing in them and
trading them in auto-gliss

specifically quite a lot and you
know, was into punks like sub,

I think $1,000.

That's a weird like flashback
right there.

Yeah, yeah, pretty crazy.

Yeah, you know, it's definitely
fun to think about that time

and the people before him.

But before I get too
sidetracked, yeah, like, so he.

So I talked to him a bit about
it and then I think I was using

like TikTok at the time and have
always had, like I don't know,

a bit of a trend spotting or
analysis, leaning brain, and had

just noticed like the frequency
of me seeing references to

crypto, to digital assets, was
starting to increase.

Like it wasn't common, it
definitely wasn't a daily thing,

but eventually I was like I
should call Gosmin and, yeah,

convinced me to eat a bunch of
my money I mean like most of it

into like in terms of like you
know, money that was just

chilling into a couple of punks
and at the end of 2020, and it

just worked out to be like a
very lucky timed event for me.

So I'm not like I was trying to
get that out there, that I am

in no way like a crypto or punk
OG.

I'm not necessarily a smart
person.

I got exceptionally lucky and
just like bought a couple things

at the right time, but it was
enough.

Having that, like you know,
meaningful investment made me

realize like okay, I need to
learn more, I need to get you

know more kind of tensionally
invested, energetically invested

.

And that's when I like created
a Twitter account I never really

used Twitter before and started
to like really try and absorb

as much as possible.

Just following the people I
thought were smart.

Definitely was a reply guy I
mean still am, I would say.

But like it was like, yeah, I'm
just I don't know trying to

learn as much as possible.

I got to the point where I was
like, all right, I'm working

this full time job outside of
Web 3.

I need to not be doing that,
but I shouldn't necessarily quit

.

So I managed to like pack my
eight hours of work into like

three and then would spend five
on Twitter and like on Clubhouse

and stuff, just listening and
reading and tweeting into the

void and and yeah, and
eventually went to an Accelerate

Art exhibition that was punk
4156's eight stage capitalism

exhibition and bunch of
incredible art you'd picked up

and I was listening to.

So I was attending in crypto
voxels in like a custom build

that I think Gareth, maybe from
Accelerate Art, had put together

, listening to Claire interview
the artists in crypto voxels.

So we were on like Clubhouse
but on our phones, walking

around crypto boxes on desktop,
and it was like the craziest

gallery experience I'd ever been
to.

I think this was like April or
March 2021.

And 4156 was like super
anonymous, had never spoken or

had their voice go live or
anything.

So Claire was like transcribing
or translating, I guess, for

him and asking questions on his
behalf and then eventually I

believe it was Matt Fury started
talking about his piece in

4156's collection and, yeah,
4156 just got so excited because

that's one of his like favorite
artists, I guess, and kind of

cultural contributors that he
like broke his voice and and

started talking.

It was, I remember, is this
like exciting a moment in time?

And yeah, and that was like a
pivotal experience for me.

After that I like really doubled
down and was like, all right,

I've been to galleries, like
lucky to go to museums and

galleries around the world
Didn't have like huge background

art, but it just done a bit of
traveling and I was like this

was the best gallery experience
I've ever had, like this beat

everything else because of how
interactive it was, because

these artists had directly sold
their own art, not had to go

through any kind of intermediary
, and because there was this.

You know a couple of extremely
anonymous digital identities or

pseudonymous identities Claire
and 4156 expressing themselves

and, yeah, completely unknown
elsewhere.

It's just really really dope
and I was like this is super

cool and the kind of blend of, I
guess, like mixed reality, of

listening to effectively like a
Twitter space or clubhouse and

walk around in virtual space.

This is, this is dope.

So, yeah, I'd be like full send
committed after that.

Speaker 1: Man, thank you for
like sharing all of those

details, because I feel like and
when you told me about that

moment where 4156 broke his like
anonymity, you know, with Matt

Fury like that sent chills down
my spine, because I feel like

there's like I think one of the
common themes, or at least in my

experience, is that I was I
wasn't there for the people sale

, but I was there in the
clubhouse room after with the

two buyers, like Metacovin and
Tubidor, and like what I didn't

know at the time Justin Blau and
like all these other people,

and it was like there's these
moments where it just like

captivates and like like we
don't really know why it's

captivating, but it's just so
fucking captivating and they

were just talking about all
these new concepts that I never

heard before.

So I appreciate you like taking
us like down memory lane,

because I feel like it's
something that's lost on a lot

of people, a lot of newcomers
that come here and, granted, the

space is very different than it
was then, even though we're

still very early.

I feel like that was just like
like negative time, if that's

even possible.

You know, we weren't even at
zero yet.

It was just still very
underground and grassroots, and

moments like that are what I
like to like highlight and

capture and help people like, if
you haven't found that moment,

like, just wait, you know, if
you keep participating, if you,

if it's interesting enough to
like, if it has your curiosity

and if you're interested enough,
and then, like, that moment

will typically come because it
took you know a few like.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it
took you, it was, it wasn't

like immediately after you
started figuring out about the

space, where you kind of like
went to that event in crypto

voxels, you know.

So I don't know, man, it's a,
it's a wild thing to like hear

some of that, some of those
early days, and at the time you

probably had no idea that like
41, 56 was what was going to

become what he became.

You know throughout.

You know throughout time here.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, it's
definitely yeah, it's.

I totally agree, like I think
it's important to remember those

moments and, as, just like you
said to you know communicate,

like most people that are here
right now who have endured both

a bull market and are now in
this bear market or I'm kind of

calling it the fuck around and
find out market for the time

being.

And yeah, I feel like those
people have most likely had

those moments.

But when things are maybe a
little more stagnant or

uncertain, I think it can be
easy to forget those moments,

even if you've had them.

So it's it's nice to think
about that time.

I'm very like grateful to all
of the people that were way

ahead of me in kind of paving a
way for the rest of us in, you

know, setting up like the rails
and the yeah, just kind of

everything that led up to where
we are now.

And yeah, 41, 56 was like
pretty.

I think it's pretty big back
then, still like a yeah, it was

big time collector.

I think he like mean bid 420
ETH on the map, fury, like

outbid someone by like 100 ETH,
like just to hit 420, which was,

which was insane, and and so I
remember being like this is

great.

I didn't really know much about
him other than, like I liked a

lot of these artists that he had
collected from and and, yeah, I

think I think the point about
him speaking because I'm always

like it's not necessarily like a
reverence for him and I don't

mean that in like a
disrespectful way, but I think

it stands out in memory because
it was an inflection point for

me to like grasp how important
his digital identity was up

until that point and what it
took for him to at least share

his voice.

And then, in the latter part,
you know, it was very infectious

, like the excitement that he
had to connect with an artist

that he deeply admired and yeah,
and that I think it was those

kind of two things that really
stood out to me wasn't

necessarily that it was, I mean,
it was, there, was him, but

yeah, just like the kind of
experience of, you know, someone

who had a very anonymous
digital identity and then

someone who would compromise
some degree of that identity out

of excitement to connect with
an artist in a virtual

environment, which is which is
really cool.

Speaker 1: I think that's one of
the things that excited me the

most, and I'm going to draw back
to a conversation that I had

with, with Zade, you know, and
he asked me like why do you, why

do you collect art, like
digital art, why do you like

collecting digital art over
physical art?

And it was like, like the way I
answered, it is like you know

he's like and don't tell me the
wall space I was like, okay,

because that was going to be my
first answer, because I don't

have enough wall space to
collect art.

But, very similar to you, I
didn't have an art background.

You know, I never really
collected art before I came here

, and I think you touched on
something that resonated with me

a lot, which is like I it's
almost like a collect

relationships and there's
something about a transaction

that takes place, that that
allows a relationship to form

that I find incredibly valuable,
you know, and the fact that I

just had this like unlimited
backpack, you know, or this

bottomless pit of a backpack
called a wallet, you know, where

I can just like collect all of
my art and never run out of

space.

But it's also like I get to form
these incredibly strong bonds

with some of the some of the
most creative minds in the world

.

You know and I think that to me
, is the most valuable thing

that I've taken away since I've
been here Like holy shit, I'm

rubbing shoulders with people
that are just creating really

dope shit, whether it's building
it, whether it's, you know,

whether it's creating any for
art or building products.

You know, I don't know, man.

That to me is like one of the
selling points is and I can't

really describe it, you know,
it's it's hard to, it's hard to

really put into words when I
really think about it, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it totally is.

Like why?

It's a really good question,
like why do you collect Digital

or tokenize digital art?

Yeah, it's a good one.

It's cool that I shout out Zade
, also one of my favorite,

favorite artists in the whole
damn world, and Gem of a Human

being, so it's a great kind of
like great question, so I guess

I'll turn that.

Speaker 1: you know, is that?

Do you have a similar answer?

Or what is it that kind of like
drew you into?

Like what is one of the main
reasons you like to collect

digitalists without an art
background?

Speaker 2: And so this is yeah,
okay.

So we're just talking about our
.

We're not talking about, like
you know, insert adjective plus

animal, or even like
collectibles per se.

Yeah, yeah.

So for art, I would say my
answer is pretty similar.

I'm I do have like not to say
it's a wall space thing, I

definitely not that, but I am
kind of related to that.

I am very bullish in the what I
believe to be the eventual mass

adoption of the acceptance of
digital life.

I'm bullish on that and that
encapsulates digital assets.

So there's that part of things
and it is nice to have a back

fact that you never like it's
not like when you're playing,

you know, elder scrolls.

It's like you are over
encumbered, like you're good as

long as you, as long as you have
the, the youth to pay gas, to

move it around, like you're good
, yeah, but yeah, so.

So there's that kind of aspect.

But I think for me yeah, I
totally agree Like it feels

great to support, directly
support artists.

I grew up, as I think many
people did, being told that it's

crazy to think about being an
artist Like that's not what your

career school counselor tells
you to do.

Like, even if you know to the
most talented artists out there

I'm sure almost you know
practically no one has told them

to pursue that full time.

Aside from you know, maybe
other artists if even if that,

or a loving friend or family
member.

So to me, the ability to
directly support what I consider

and have grown for sure over
the past year, grown to consider

in a deeper way extremely brave
people who have put their all

into creating an environment
within themselves and around

themselves where they can pursue
their passion that is art, and

I've definitely grown to see art
as one of the most vulnerable

forms of communication, and so I
find both of those things

deeply inspiring.

And I've noticed since I got
into this space, it definitely

took me a while to start paying
attention more closely to the

art side of things.

Like I've always loved art and
a very casual enjoyer, was never

into collecting art and but
yeah, so getting into the space,

I started seeing it more, I
started following more artists

and I noticed that just by
seeing art I was happier, like

by being on Twitter and having
my timeline be maybe two thirds

art, or like one third art, one
third ship hosting and like one

third like great ideas or bad
takes.

My life was better, but the but
, the real understanding, was

like it was the art part.

It was helping me, it was
making me feel more creative.

It felt like this beautiful,
colorful antidepressant that you

never had to go to the pharmacy
for and it was just like

feeling like a more fulfilled
person.

And also, I noticed it was like
helping me understand myself

better because, yeah, I think
you know a piece of art is kind

of like a mirror that shows at
least one part of the artist.

So it's kind of like them
holding up a mirror to say like

this is me, but you also get to
kind of see yourself in it or a

part of yourself as you
interpret it or experience it.

So I felt like the more artists
are, the more pieces of myself

I saw or understood or at least
was kind of prompted to inquire

about internally and, yeah, I
just really valued that.

And then, you know, learning
more about the kind of art

market, realizing that you know
my prior focus of trading NFTs

like PFPs and collectibles, that
you know a lot of those

projects were not going to stand
the test of time or at least

their prices weren't going to
stand the test of time relative

to where I entered, or maybe had
chosen not to sell.

Unfortunately, you know artists
that are truly intrinsically

driven to create and just live
their art and their passion and

kind of will stop at nothing to
pursue it.

So, like, I don't know, like
it's a really that's a really

good person to invest in and
like.

And I haven't collected art,
you know, for flipping, I think

I've only sold a couple pieces
out of a lot more than that that

I've collected.

But you know you also think
like well, even if the artist

like doesn't work out when I'm
looking, you know comparing my,

my open sea, you know comparing
it.

If I auto, select all or view
all PFPs and 10k projects,

doesn't spark joy looking at
massive bags of ones that are

down her endlessly, whereas,
like I've collected pieces of

art that like haven't
appreciated in value or are just

completely a liquid and I just
don't give a shit and like I

just like I really don't care
because they're beautiful and I,

you know something in the
moment like I saw something in

the moment I collected or saw it
that maybe want to pick it up

and it, you know, I hope, help
someone, and so there's no kind

of like hard feelings after that
.

And I noticed as well that,
while sorry, this is like most

long way to overcapinated right
now, yeah, I noticed as well

that because I was so focused on
PFPs and quick flips In the

beginning of my you know, of the
bull run and my kind of entry

into the NFT space, I said no,
or at least just didn't pursue

collecting art from people that
I did recognize would be here

for a long time.

There was like some cognitive
dissonance where I was like, oh

yeah, like Claire Silver for
sure, believe in her, like she's

going to go on and do great
things.

But since I am a person who has
never collected art before,

spending, you know, a quarter of
an eighth or half an eighth or

one eighth on a piece of art
yeah, sounds crazy.

Like I could use that eighth to
mint 20, like you know crazy

flipped dogs and sell them for
more tomorrow.

And it was just like.

That was like, in all honesty,
the where I was kind of at and

that happened with a few artists
, claire's for sure, one ACK is

another and and yeah, and like
when the market took a turn and

my PFP bags are really down.

I looked at a lot of those
artists that I had, you know, on

some level, consciously chosen
not to collect their work from

when I was a TFP maxi or at
least TFP trading maxi and so I

was like, oh shit, if I had
spent like a tenth of the amount

that I spent on NFTs of PFPs on
art from artists I resonated

with back then, I'd be up way
more like like so much more

especially with, like artists
like Claire and ACK and, yeah,

maybe like rethink the kind of
investment thesis of betting on,

you know, soul creators that
are driven beyond everything to

create.

Speaker 1: I mean, dude, there's
a lot.

There's a lot that you said
there that I really resonated

with, and I think the last part
we'll dive into a few of them,

but I, off the top of my head,
it's one of the reasons why, on

your last point is why I've like
with very few exceptions, you

know, like everyone since I've
come into the Web three space,

has been an individual creator,
because it's a lot easier to bet

on an individual than it is a
team.

It's so much more fun when this
is like kind of resurfacing.

Your other point of like people
that are just going to continue

to create regardless of market
conditions.

They were creating before NFTs,
most of them were, and they're

going to continue creating, even
if this is all big experiment

goes to zero, which I hope it
doesn't.

I don't believe it will, just
feels inevitable.

It's just the outcome is
hopefully the one that we want.

But that was, that was a lot of
like why I chose to, you know,

interview by interviews.

Because, number one, I was
still also very new to the

technology and people like you
know, I and I had no, just to

just I had no conception of
markets before this.

You know, like I wasn't a
trader and I didn't have like a

whole lot of financial literacy
when it came to like you know

markets and trading and
behaviors and how things worked,

and so, like when the bull run
happened last year, I didn't

know what the fuck to think Like
I just didn't know what to do.

So I literally talked away in
my little studio that we're in

here and I was like let me just
talk to like individual people

who are really vulnerable like
me and create dope work, like

that was like it was just as
simple as that.

You know, and that was to your
point earlier, is that, like I

think, if I want to add to, one
of the reasons why I collect is

that I'm naturally a very
sensitive and vulnerable person

and like to meet people that
have the same level of

vulnerability and sensitivity is
like I'm like oh, like you,

people exist, you know, there's
people like me that exist out

there and it's just a magical.

It's just a magical thing, man.

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

Yeah, well, I'm really happy
for you and happy for all the

other people who are, yeah, have
gotten to experience that, so

that's, that's super cool to
hear.

Yeah, it's definitely been an
incentive to like learn about

markets and, you know, macro
economy stuff and trading and

all that jazz.

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean,
it really is.

It's, it's.

It's intimidating at the time.

It's like what an interesting
time to be learning about

financial markets in the space
where everything is kind of just

like you know, nothing is
predictable anymore.

That you know it's.

It's wild.

But it's also where the most
information can be, can be

absorbed, because you know the
like.

What I think I enjoy, and I
think you probably like see this

too, is that like, quote
unquote, the way things were are

not the way things were anymore
.

Like, that kind of like
narrative is crumbling a little

bit.

It's like, you know, with
everything that's happening, we

don't really know what the way
things are supposed to be, and

there's a lot of new.

It opens the door for a lot of
new innovation.

It opens the door for a lot
more creativity, you know, and I

think that's what's most
exciting to me but, yeah, man,

kind of like shifting, you know
directions a little bit like so

you've got in here, you're
collecting all this amazing work

and then you know what, how did
Schiller come about?

You know, like, what was.

How did you like meet Bernardo
and Ruggman and Connor and all

these other people like, because
I feel like you guys have built

some of these really cool
product, like built a really

cool Web three native company
and are, like, incredibly

successful.

Speaker 2: Thanks, yeah, it's
really kind of USA.

Yeah, it's kind of funny how it
started, for Gemma just put a

tweet out one day and I guess I
was following him and or just

noticed it on the timeline
Probably in like I don't know,

may of, maybe prior to May of
2021.

Yeah, and, and it was like hey,
thinking of starting a

consulting, a marketing company
in the Web three space, like,

would anyone be interested in
getting involved?

And a few of us responded and
within you know 24 hours, we had

, like I think within 24 hours
of our first kind of yeah,

within 24 hours or 40 hours,
something like that.

We had like a discord setup.

We had had a meeting, we had a
website, we had some branding in

.

Yeah, I had come up with the
name and figured out, like

really what we wanted to do and
what kind of impact we wanted to

have.

And, yeah, secured the ENS, of
course, and yeah, and then it

just kind of blossomed from
there with, yeah, a handful of

you know really brilliant people
who had backgrounds in, you

know, marketing and data,
analytics, finance, consulting,

design, you know a bunch of
stuff and and start up culture

and yeah, who were just deeply
passionate about the space and

had noticed that you know
there's so many great projects

and protocols and artists out
there that are not getting the

spotlight that we collectively
thought they deserved.

But then a bunch of you know
maybe more hype driven, short

term, focused, dilutive value,
like, yeah, dilutive projects.

We're getting a ton of
attention and we're like, and a

lot of that attention was often
coming from not great marketing

methods of like you know
backdoor deals and you know

influencer promotions and yeah,
and just like not great stuff.

And so, yeah, I came up with
the name Schiller and was, like,

you know, schilling gets such a
bad rap in this space, got it,

rightfully so, but fundamentally
there's nothing wrong with it,

like the concept of you know
marketing.

But what if we endeavored to be
the first transparent marketing

consulting company in the NFT
and Web 3 space?

And and yeah, that's kind of
how we started with, you know,

no clear or defined set of who
we would work with, just people

that we thought were bringing
value to the space, that we

would genuinely want to like,
hop on a phone call with and

chat with and work with and who
we would choose to support

regardless of any kind of
professional involvement.

And so, yeah, it's been like a
while that was like over a year

and a half ago and we very
quickly all went full time on it

and once we did that, I was
like, all right, my days are

numbered in my Web 2 job.

I got to get out of here.

It was getting to the point I
was like I was like I'm either

going to massively fail at you
know, helping to get Schiller

off the ground or I'm going to
get fired because I have been

doing you know three hour, eight
hour work days for way too long

and somehow getting you know
good kind of performance reviews

.

I think it was just like my
motivation was really high to

make you know, make it all
happen.

And yeah, it's, make it all
happen.

So, yeah, yeah.

And but I was getting close to
my, to my end, where I was like

this, this isn't good, like I'm
being a bad employee and a bad

co-founder at the same time.

So, um, yeah, so eventually,
when I went full time first, I

think, and then, very shortly
after, the rest of the team did,

and yeah, we've gotten to
operate in the space for a year

and a half and things have gone
really well, shout out to

everyone that has, you know,
entrusted us to work with them

or supported us.

It's been super fun and you
know I very much view the time

elapsed since we started as you
know, the beginning still like

we're definitely just getting
started and have a lot of

redacted things planned.

I just had to catch myself
before I said too much.

But yeah, we got a lot of
things planned and it's been,

it's been a great time.

Speaker 1: Very interesting that
that you mentioned was like the

first marketing agency built on
transparency.

Like what good like I'm curious
about that a little bit Is that

?

Like?

What does that entail?

Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I mean
it's.

It's like a very nebulous term.

I mean marketing in general is
fucking nebulous.

Like right and like, as someone
who does marketing, I like

catch myself all the time.

I'm like I'm kind of talking
out of my ass right now, like

I'm not saying things very, very
clearly.

So I appreciate the call out.

I would say, you know the
things like we focus on strictly

organic growth and what that
means is that you know we never

do paid promotions.

We never do you know paid
influencer promotions or

telegram chats.

We don't do ads.

We very much like situate
ourselves as much as we can.

You know, as much as our like
partnered clients will allow us

to try and situate ourselves on
their, on their team to help

steer the ship to some degree,
like in a little way, like we

definitely don't.

You know, like it's it's it's
mostly them, but yeah, so we

always make sure to disclose
absolutely everyone that we work

with.

We always make personal
disclosures.

So if I'm hosting a Twitter
space with, you know, one of our

clients, it's like at the
beginning, like hey, as a

transparency reminder, I'm
working with this team.

Yeah, not, not financial advice
, whatever, but yeah, really try

and make it abundantly clear
above board, that we have a

professional relationship and
that you know, the listener or

whoever seeing the Twitter,
whatever should be mindful of

that and like do their own
research.

So that's one way in which we
kind of operate.

Another way is you know the
term organic.

Again, it's very nebulous.

So it includes like right, not
doing the paid stuff, not doing

like under the table, promos and
things like that.

It also includes just not
overhyping things, and so a

really big part of what we work
on is just communication and

obviously like strategy of
communication.

So you know everyone.

I'm a firm believer that
everyone, whether they're, like

you know, a creator, just a
human being, or like a project

or protocol, like they are
trying to do something for a

reason and there is a story of
how they got there and there's a

story of like where they're
trying to go and there's

tangible things that they're
doing to get there and things

that they will try to do as soon
as is possible for them.

So a really big part is just
like sitting down with teams and

being like well, what are you
trying to do?

What are you trying to?

What do you want people to know
about you?

And making sure that you know
their messaging is really clear

but also appealing, you know,
and is never venturing into the

realms of just like undo hype or
promising the moon and

delivering.

You know sludge, yeah, like,
yeah.

So, like we always will like
check in with our clients and

say like well, what, what can
you deliver?

And try and make sure that
we're conveying like value,

props or why people might be
interested.

Do it really honestly, of
course, like you know, you make

that messaging like appealing
and you try and make it so

everyone's interested in it, but
ultimately just trying to help

these people and companies and
products find, like their tribe

or their natural, organic
communities that are already

interested in that kind of idea
or product service, whatever it

is.

And yeah, so I'd say that's
kind of what we do.

There's, there's definitely more
into that.

I think some of the stuff we do
on the back end, you know, is

more on a consulting side.

It's a ton of our work goes
into that.

So consulting on, like you know
, as active traders and

participators and degenerates to
some degree.

We know what we want and we
know, you know, the things that

are truly a value and so at
every possible opportunity, we

try and suggest, you know,
things that the teams we work

with could do to provide a
better experience and to provide

more value and when things
don't go right which you know

they often don't in the space,
the volatile industry in the

world to be really receptive of
that and to like pivot in

authentic ways and to like call
out things that haven't gone

well and then take community
feedback to do better.

So yeah, that's like in a
nutshell what we do, and then we

have a nonprofit sort of arm we
try and help artists.

That's like unrelated to our
client work but, yeah, something

that we're definitely have
enjoyed leading into it.

Speaker 1: I really I like that
and it reminded me of it

reminded me of something I saw
on Twitter from FWIZ about like,

when you're talking about when
things inevitably don't like go

right which you know a lot of
times they don't in this space

is really interesting.

It's like you need to have like
a five year plan and then like a

five week plan and like a five
minute plan when you're running

this, because there's things
that happen on a day to day

basis and it's so hard to keep
up with.

And I look at some of these
projects that are successful and

I really admire that because
it's just like it's.

While the opportunity is there,
like it's there's, it's a lot

different than the way things
used to be or the way things I

guess you could say currently
are, with like non web three

companies and that's something
that are the ones that like

succeed and the ones that kind
of like can make it through some

of the trials and tribulations.

I mean, this is like I'm trying
to paint this picture of like,

while it looks very easy, I'm
trying to say that you guys make

it like a lot of people here
are successful, make it look

really easy, but it's actually
not.

There's a lot that goes into
this and there's a lot of

thought that gets put into it,
around this, all around these

like digital community or like,
yeah, I guess, these digital

identity communities that are
currently being formed.

you know what I mean, and yeah
dude, I just wanted to take a

peek under the hood because it
you know it, sometimes I don't

all just like great art.

I don't always know why I feel
something, I just know I feel

something.

So it's always great to like
hear the explanation behind that

and to like hear you know how,
how you guys traditionally

function and how you guys
separate yourselves from like

other companies.

Speaker 2: Thanks, man, yeah, no
, happy to shed some light on it

.

Like we we've kind of had this
running joke since we founded

Shiller that we will never shill
shiller, and like we took that

quite literally.

We're like that.

We're like you know, the
strongest marketing in the world

is indirect marketing.

You know how they say like you
are what people say about you

and you're not there, yeah, and
so we tried to and we've tried

to really embody that and but
with that, when you've been

around for like, yeah, like I
think we're probably the oldest

or one of the newest I'd have to
check the social chain, but

we're one of the one of the
oldest kind of marketing

consulting companies and we've
tried to, yeah, embody that.

But with with the not sure
we've shiller.

People are always like fuck, do
you guys do?

Like I don't know anything
about you, and so it's, yeah,

it's.

I'm happy to help paint a little
picture and honestly, like I

appreciate the props.

I think a big part and I've got
to, you know, give some love to

the people that we've worked
with like we've.

Your job is way easier when you
filter who you work with and

who you represent.

So that's been a really big
part of how we've operated, like

, as I said, like the only work
with people that we would

support, rather than, you know,
it's an FT project, it's like

someone project we would mint
ourselves and we're excited

about.

If it's a you know, platform
like hologram, you know it's

something that I'm stoked to be
able to use and it's like really

, yeah, it's yeah not gonna show
hologram, check them out,

though Now I'm just kidding, but
yeah, like you know, there's,

there's, it helps a lot.

And and I think one of the
coolest things about what we've

done has been to, you know, work
in the marketing space and NFTs

and Web three for longer than
most people, most companies and

from you know, maybe I live in
an echo chamber and I'm sure I

do to some degree, but I feel
like our, I guess like community

sentiment or like it seems like
, you know, people have not

disliked us massively over over
time, which I think is kind of

rare, and so that's probably one
of the things I'm proudest

about.

And and, yeah, a big part of
that is just like choosing to

work with great people.

We've, we've really tried to do
that this whole time and, yeah,

kind of put it at the forefront
of what we do.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it
makes things a lot easier.

It really does.

And I've noticed that just in
the area that I you know,

obviously in podcasting of what
I do as well, as you know,

there's been some people that
I've had on that like I kind of

was, I was like on the fence,
you know, especially in the

Esports days or you know,
whatever the case may be, but

then when it was like, when I
actually sought out the person,

I was like damn, like it makes,
it makes things a lot easier

when you do that.

And I think the follow up
question I have to that is do

you think that like collecting
whether it's collecting art,

collecting, you know, like
strong teams and digital

collectibles has that like?

Is that is that kind of like?

Have you learned anything from
that?

That's like that you've taken a
shiller to like help strengthen

your brand.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say,
you know I think Claire Silver

was the first person I saw say
this, and I'm not sure if Claire

still has it in her bio that
taste is the taste is the new

skill, or something.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then I think that
it kind of turned into, for me

at least, like curation is the
new skill and curation is like

somewhat of a surgical term,
like is I now feel like vibe

check is the new curation, is
the new taste, like it's a much

more, you know, widely
encompassing way of assessing,

like, do I like this?

Do I like it for the right
reasons?

Do I notice that?

You know, I deeply feel like I
want to support this and want to

like do this thing or partner
with this person or collect this

art.

Am I doing it out of purely
excitement or am I doing it out

of some like grounded sense of,
like intrinsic desire to support

or participate?

And and yeah, I think you know
there's been a huge overlap with

like that for me, for our
collecting, for, you know,

building relationships and
choosing who to do that with, or

or approach to be like hey, I
think you're dope, like we'd

love to chat sometime.

And to you know what we do at
Schiller, like I think, for sure

, like my and maybe it was Trill
or he I think, said like

Cultivating and understanding
and sense of conviction that you

act on is like one of the most
important skills you could

possibly learn in this space in
particular, and you know, I

would just like insert vibe
check over.

Yeah, just just like
cultivating the.

The skill of vibe checking
things is is so important,

especially when you are rarely
seeing someone in person,

because I do think there is
freedom.

That's like one of the pitfalls
of digital identity it's often

very two-dimensional and it's
easy to fill in the gaps with

what you want to see and not
what is really there.

Meaning that it's you can
overestimate someone or some

projects character Out of your
like desire to do so.

Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, dude, that
that was.

I think that's been one of the
biggest lessons I've learned is,

like you know, taking off the
rose colored glasses of like

what's what's real and what is
it that I want to be real, it's

a very different question.

It's usually especially last
year when everything was crazy

and up only, is that usually two
different answers, and it's

it's wild to to to grow, and
it's my side.

Simple is.

I think it was For the longest
time.

I think it was like after like,
like October, november,

december, I was like man, this
is great, I love up only, but

like, fuck man, like I need a
break.

You know, like this is
exhausting, you know to to just

try to keep up with all of this.

And I was like Secretly hoping
for a bear market sooner rather

than later Because, like I knew
that a lot of my perspective

would probably change, you know,
walking through that, eth would

be on sale, art would be on
sale again, you know.

And so I could finally get to
collect, you know, selfishly

collect some of the pieces I've
always wanted to from some of my

favorite artists, but I, I just
remember how unsustainable it

felt, you know, when we were
kind of like just peeking for

you.

Wag me vibes.

I mean so when it comes to that
, like, is this so you got in,

like right around 2020, which
was kind of like End of the bear

market or like well, I would
say end of it, end of it was

2021.

Do you notice anything like
different or the same?

Like now versus then?

Like, do you feel like this is
worse in ways or not as worse in

other ways?

Speaker 2: I Think it's only
gone better.

Yeah, I Definitely experienced
a massive dopamine withdrawal,

as I think we all did, and that
fucking sucks.

You know, like I'm trying to go
to sleep, like why didn't I buy

board Aps?

God damn it.

Like, and why?

And then why didn't you know
why didn't my hypothetical self

that bought them sell them at
the top?

Like you know, just like, yeah,
many like.

It took me a while to get over
that.

If I'm being real, like,
despite also having that same

sense of like, holy shit, my
body needs a break, like I think

I think my body physically
broke down Like twice during the

bull market because I was so
exhausted.

But yeah, I think like since
then I have much more conviction

in the space, even with all of
the FTX stuff and yeah

everything else has gone down as
shitty as it is and as much

kind of like, yeah, it's bad and
I really feel for everyone

affected directly Aside from SBA
, but yeah, like all of those

things are a bull case for
self-custody and

decentralization and yeah, so
like even there's always, I

think, things to take away and I
feel like a lot of the

Opportunists and we're all I
mean, we're all fucking

opportunists.

Like, yeah, we're in this cat
in space but like a lot of the

very short-term minded
opportunities have dipped, or at

least it feels like it, and the
Again.

Like when I joined, the
concentration of like great

people that I wanted to talk to
you was very high, but now it

feels like it's even greater.

Like there's even you know,
more people like that out of the

in total number of like active.

I don't know people tweeting
about NFTs or executing wallet

transactions, like, yeah, and
like you know a few things.

I think you've gotten way
better.

Like there's, you know we've
experienced in the past couple

weeks and it's yeah,
mid-december right now a Huge

run of Editions from artists
like open editions, limited

editions, open editions with,
you know, communicated burn

mechanisms.

All this stuff and All of those
things have been on.

You know, artists owned and
deployed octopus, manifold,

smart contracts, which, when I
entered the space, virtually

every edition, if not every, the
majority of every collection of

our collection Was on the
shared Opensea contract, which

is like not great, you know,
shout out Opensea for, for like

what they've done, that is great
and in some ways like right,

you know that contribution still
important by yeah to me it's

the recent use of tools like
manifold and More recently I've

seen more artists using
transient labs, like that, to me

, is is a massive, I guess, like
sign of um In like something to

be encouraged by.

I guess it's like artists are
leveraging the tech and,

historically speaking, you know,
especially the newer entrance

not the OG Crypto artists, but
the newer entrance were probably

less familiar with the tech
Underlying the space.

It just isn't blanket statement
, not, I know there's many of

you that are like devs and I've
been into crypto forever, but

yeah, so that's been amazing to
see and I feel like the the

quality of projects like to
build.

During a bear market, it's the
time to build, but you know,

when there's already kind of
crickets, mmm, you got to build

something good In order to, you
know, garner any serious

excitement or interest and
therefore, like you know, I

think the quality of stuff that
we've seen come out recently and

In terms of like PFP projects,
like the bar, just keeps getting

raised.

Of course, they'll always be
degenerate plays, going on with

Unreasonable or completely
fabricated roadmaps, but you

know, you like On the process of
adoption, growth, you get

everything you know like yeah,
so I think it's better.

Speaker 1: Hmm, I think so too
and I, like, I have no

perception of that.

So I, I mean, I'd like to say
yes, but I, you know, I came in

late 2021, so not late 2021,
early 2021, so like right at the

tail end of it all.

You know, it's always great to
hear that and I ask questions

like that because, like, when I
first came into the space, that

Is what really helped.

Oh, excuse me, that's really
what helps.

Like, you know, when I didn't
really know how to build my

conviction, I, you know, we
talked about the earlier is one

of the best skills to learn in
the space is learning how to

build conviction and Learning
how to do the vibe check.

And I didn't really know, I
didn't really know how to, how

to navigate that you know.

So what I did, my early vibe
check assessment, was like

following people Very similar to
you, or people that had at

least been through it man like
to like, like, ask, like, what

are they saying?

What do they think about the
tech?

You know, you know what was it
like, even from people like

Kevin Rose and Gary V, who had
like built, you know, help, like

participate in the internet in
the early days.

What are they saying about this
.

You know, that's the types of
people that I would always like

look to when I didn't really
know how to build my own

conviction, like these people
have been through it.

Like, even though it's still
trusting another person outside

of myself, it's probably the
closest thing that I can get to

it.

You know, and at least you know
have some trusted information

is the point I'm trying to make,
and so it's always great to

hear perspectives like this,
because I I genuinely believe

that, like NFTs and crypto and
crypto art, or NFTs and crypto

art, are like the cultural layer
of blockchain.

You know, because I've also
heard, you know D's say, like

you know, back in the last bear
market, we didn't have any art,

we just had a bunch of shit coin
and they're like the vibes were

down horrendously.

So it's cool to to like see that
the artists that Like have been

here, whether they've come here
in the past and they're and and

they're just figuring out the
tech, or they've Been here for a

little while longer that still
continuing to create and have

these fun mechanics, because I
think it was so easy, not just

for artists, but just for anyone
, to come in and get mesmerized

by the number go up.

You know it's so easy for that
to happen and humans are just

naturally greedy and want to
catch the upside on that and For

the longest time you just it's
it when the blinders are on.

I always kind of wondered you
know what?

Which ones are, which ones were
really?

Which people really here for
the tech?

Because that was honestly fun
to else.

One of the first things that
Attracted me here was like oh,

this is dope, like immutable
smart contracts, royalties, like

you know, all these like really
cool mechanics that you can do,

that you can't do with, like
not even remotely close to

discounting physical art, but
the things that you just can't

do with a paintbrush.

This is just a new genre of
what we're getting to

participate in Totally.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that's
another thing like, and it's

like I remember you know PQ for
you bull market, seeing tweets

from like KBM and D's and to boo
see being like you better be

taking profits, like we're going
to fucking zero and just being

like More, I feel like these
wasn't as these, more Like

playful maybe, yeah, in in his
doomsaing or like reflections on

the space, but yeah, seeing
treats from people like that and

being like I heard bummer Just
scrolling fast and then like and

it's totally like I was just
falling Pray to you know, I was

just falling down and I was just
falling down and I was just

falling down.

So you know the fact that, as a
human, like I'll never be

rational, I'll always be
rationalizing, meaning like I,

I'm gonna choose to believe
something, either because I want

it to be true or I fear it to
be true.

And and yeah, I just wanted you
know, wanted myself to be

correct and that, no, it's,
we're up only like the cats are

going to 69 ether, whatever the
hell.

Like I was smoking, like Shout
out the cats, not cast their own

shade.

But yeah, I, you know now,
deeply Appreciate and respect

that cynicism that I noticed was
inherent in Virtually all of

crypto, twitter and you know a
bunch of the more, I guess, like

og or multi-cycle veterans on
the NFT Twitter side of things.

And yeah, it's, yeah, we do.

We do a little learning and we
do a little better next time, as

Dees might say, yeah, it's,
yeah, it's, it's super, it's

super interesting, and I
remember seeing those tweets.

Speaker 1: I was like why all of
my bags are in?

You know mostly art.

So just like, well, I'm not,
I'm not too worried about this

right now.

Speaker 2: That was my take on
it.

That's, I mean, that's great,
yeah, that's great to hear.

And yeah, I think like as Well,
like you, cuz you kind of like

two choices when things start
going downhill.

It's like Do I give up, like,
do I leave, do I go back to like

a normal job, or do I double
down?

And if I double down, like, how
do I do so successfully?

And I'm seeing a lot of people
doubling down right now and and

myself, and yeah, I find that
really exciting because I think

you know the there's.

There aren't that many people in
this space that are super

active.

There's far fewer that are
building things, whether they're

, you know, like great podcasts
like such as yours or D's is, or

you know, or you know platforms
and protocols Like hologram to

Sarah.

You know there's lots of people
doing doing really cool stuff.

I saw some crazy deca stuff out
recently.

I know trans in labs is is
dropping some heat soon, like

manifold, like there's people
doing really cool stuff.

And I think, like, at some
point you, you know you've got

to Choose to build something
like, or team up with some

people that are already doing so
, because I still think there's

an immense amount of opportunity
here.

So that's, I've found that part
of this, like slow down in the

market, really exciting and
Makes me very hopeful for the

long term, like Regardless of
near or like midterm market

movements.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I, yeah, I like
that, and I think that,

alluding to, I think, both of
our earlier points was that the

feeling of when this went to
shit Did not feel great, and I

remember thinking to myself well
, kyle, you, you got what you

asked for.

You know you got right, got a
bear market, but I was like

hoping that I still wouldn't
feel this pit in my stomach

every day when I wake up around
the markets.

You know, and yeah, man it to
me, I've gotten to see a lot

more cool things being built as
a result of this, because it was

like oh, wow, and and.

Into me, though, is also, is
that the projects that have Even

started in 2021, and whether
they're still doing well or not

well, you know, not well if
they're still continuously

showing up.

I think that's a lot to be said
about that.

You know about Custom me, that
shows like their personal

conviction in the tech, at the
very least, you know, or has

like not wanting to let
community members down or having

to.

You know they're still building
and finding ways to do it,

despite what's happening around
us and despite the world being

in shambles.

You know something that I and
this, and this also goes to

hologram.

Hologram is a great example, but
something that I Was excited

about is that switching a little
bit more to the PFP collectible

side.

Because you know, as even as
deeply rooted as like my, as

like I am in interviewing
artists and like having this

being primarily about that, I
don't ever want to discount like

how cool it is to have.

Like the digital identity side
of things.

Like the PFP market can get a
Really bad rap because you know,

90% of a lot of the projects
that like were built last year

aren't around and that sucks, or
at least you know it's it

hasn't been doing great.

But I always was asking myself
like okay, we have these ideas,

we have these like digital
identities, like what do we do

with them?

Like it's great that we have
them and that was like kind of

like the entry point to a lot of
us into the space.

But now it's like okay, cool,
what is it that we can do with

these things and explore with
these things?

And when you guys show me
hologram, that was a great like.

Like it's like I had like this,
like moments reaction oh shit,

that's awesome.

Like this is really cool.

Like sometimes I hate being in
front of the camera, even though

I'm already docs.

But Outside of this, you know,
do you see, I guess, whether

it's being built or not being
built, or what you'd like to be

built, or some ideas around how
you know, some of these digital

identities can have some more
utility than they currently do.

I don't know if you thought
about that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean at a
base level, very bullish on it

as like, like, enjoy your of
Having a digital identity,

because it's been like a real
experiment for me.

Never like.

I've never had, like I don't
know.

I've always been a lurker on
like Reddit, barely used any

other apps, never used Twitter
before I created my current

Twitter account I Really liked.

So I see people, I see the
adoption and acceptance of

digital identity growing a lot.

I see content being more
digitally native in terms of the

personalities and identities
Meaning.

Like you know, I'm sure that we
will see big TikTok accounts

and YouTubers using things like,
if not actually, hologram in

the future.

I see AI playing a really big
component in that as well, in

terms of both content creation
and some semblance of symbiotic

relationships.

If you imagine a series like
your little buddy I think I was

just talking to someone actually
just about where do I see all

of this going?

The things that I think we'll
see more of is aggregation of

experiences.

I can imagine a future in which
there is some tech that

aggregates our digital
experiences and identities and

streamlines them in a way to
both improve our social and

practical digital experiences
and to just make them more

efficient where you can very
swiftly change virtual

environments or extended reality
environments.

I see a future in which digital
identity is much more prevalent

.

It's not weird to be a
board-ape led YouTube channel or

a TikTok influencer or a band
or having films and stuff like

that.

I see a lot of cross IP use.

We've already seen a bunch of
these PFPs be licensed out to

various things.

There's been films and
commercials made.

I think it was like I was
watching the World Cup and I saw

board apes in the FIFA
commercial Maybe it was the

Adidas commercial.

That was front and center.

There was board-ape stickers
and maybe clothing on one of the

players and a sticker on their
suitcase going to the World Cup.

I see these things becoming
more widely adopted, not just

being casual or subtle nods to
this culture, digital culture or

internet culture but more front
and center.

I think these things just
happen slowly.

Change for the general populace
is hard to accept.

Just for humans in general, it
can be very hard to accept

change.

The cool thing about all of the
people in the Web 3 and crypto,

nft whatever umbrella term you
want to use the cool thing about

those people is they're very
attracted to change and thrive

in a highly dynamic environment,
I think, younger generations

that are alive now and are being
born, and so on and so forth.

I think that's just going to
increase.

Where we're much more
reactionary, I guess.

Or like to live in fast-paced
cross-platform or mixed-platform

experiences like digitally
augmented reality, vr, all of

that.

I see the IP being used of these
PFP communities and the brands

being created by them to be
playing a really big part in

that.

Kid shows and stuff like that.

I could see a Pudgy Penguins
kid show being a hit.

I could see a Kanpai Panda's
adult-themed anime on the adult

swim or something like that.

I could see all of these things
happening and they don't feel

like pipe dreams, they feel like
likely scenarios.

Again, I'm heavily biased, but
that's where my head's at.

Speaker 1: I like that.

I want to challenge the bias a
little bit.

Do you see any downsides or
anything?

I want to play both sides of
the coin.

If you've thought about both
sides, have you seen any like

what's like some of the biggest
risks of this happening?

Or is there any downside that
you see or that you've thought

about?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's
something essential to the IRL,

face-to-face component of
relationships.

I think there is some sacrifice
made to live fully digitally.

I think we all notice that when
we meet up at these big

NFT-related events, where
there's this massive sense of

collective catharsis over the
hundreds of hours of Twitter

spaces and whatever Zoom
meetings that we've had with our

holograms or just whatever,
when we haven't been able to

just hug each other and share a
drink, I always leave those

events feeling like wow, I feel
very charged up by this IRL

connection with all the people
that I have been.

At the moment I'm just admiring
and enjoying getting to know

throughout my time in the space
digitally.

I think it's not great to just
be inside all the time.

There's no way that's good for
you.

During the bull market, there'd
be days where I was like if I

didn't have a couple of dogs, I
don't know if I would be aware

if it's a rainy day.

Right now, that's the alpha Get
a dog and take really good care

of your dog.

Try and take them on many walks
a day.

I really feel like I'm walking
myself more often than not, even

now Very busy in the bear
market or the fuck around and

find out market.

I think there's that.

That's not great as well.

You do have to think.

I've spent a lot of time
studying neuroscience and

neuropsychology and just how the
brain works.

That was a big part of my focus
in university Constance rooms

don't mean not the best, like
not the most sustainable Social

media, which is kind of where we
default to being Twitter or

Discord or wherever does get
those dopamine hits probably a

little too regularly.

It's really easy to spend a day
and go outside and be like wow

outside.

I feel like you either have the
experience of like wow,

outside's amazing, or like
besides, cold and comfortable

and it's not exciting enough or
something it can, I think,

become harder to have genuine
interactions.

I feel like that's something
I've been trying to work on,

even digitally or virtually have
more one-on-one calls like this

with friends, instead of
defaulting to just catching up

over Twitter spaces and Twitter
DMs.

I think you do have to focus on
quality of connection.

Speaker 1: I've been noticing
that a lot more and I'm glad you

said it.

Coming from the background that
I've come from being sober, the

constant dopamine hits.

It doesn't usually pan out well
, I can tell you that much.

I remember thinking about this
the other day.

I'm glad you mentioned that
because it's as someone who I

don't really like big crowds.

Unless it's like a tool show or
something like that, then I

like big crowds.

That's the only time I really
enjoyed that.

Or if I'm NFT, nyc or maybe next
year, basil, it's hard for me

to have these one-to-one
connections.

I remember thinking to myself
when I was first coming into

space what you is?

That I was in just pure goblin
mode of building relationships,

of reaching out to as many
people as I could, forming these

solid connections and really
just trying to capitalize and

being opportunistic and being
early in a space where there's

so many bright people.

I remember having the epiphany
is that, hold on, I've been here

for a little over a year and a
half.

How about let's just double
down on the people who I vibe

strongest with.

When I had that epiphany I was
like dude.

This becomes so much more
easier Having phone calls with

people, having WhatsApp
conversations with people.

Even just being privileged
enough to have some of these

people's personal numbers and to
be able to hit them up, that

has been one of the most
valuable things that I've gotten

to experience since I've been
here, at least in the past

couple of months.

Because I'll tell you, man,
covid as much as I enjoy being

fully remote, covid definitely
did do a number.

It's weird, it's a catch 22.

I genuinely think that if COVID
hadn't happened, we may not

have seen the wild bull run that
we did, with all this access

capital being thrown around that
was.

But also, at the same time, it
does a lot of damage.

I noticed that even just
getting out and doing normal

things has been a big struggle
for me.

Go on and do that To the last
point.

Man, having a dog man greatest
thing, one of the greatest

things that's ever happened to
me, because there's times where

if I whether it's a tough day or
for whatever reason, or the

markets are going crazy or I'm
doing something for the podcast,

that reminder to get up and go
do something, this creature that

has one of those beautiful
souls needs to be fed or needs

to be walked or needs to be
trained.

That has been one of my biggest
saving graces and having that

like personal connection to that
being I don't know man, I don't

know where I was going with
that, but dogs are great.

Speaker 2: It's a cute thing
Shadow Dogs and Shadow COVID,

the unofficial sponsor of the
success of Live Social Audio and

the NFT Bull Run of 2021.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely,
man, and I think, like, yeah,

like it's also kind of mirrored
in my approach to these like

conference events.

Like I still haven't been to a
conference.

I think the only one that I
like I just missed Metaverse

Miami.

I heard that was done really
well and I'll check that out

next year for sure, but I think
the only other one I've heard

done very well is V-Con.

Yeah, shadow, yeah, I think
that's a lot of scary for

killing it on that.

Yeah, my approach to the rest
of, or to conferences that I

don't know, in a sense has been,
at first I was going to

everything and it was like so
many big events with tons of

people and I kind of was riding
like the dopamine wave of the

Bull Run to, I guess, get me
through those events where, like

I'm also not a super
extroverted person, I definitely

retreat to myself or my dogs to
like recharge, and but I was

going to all of those big events
that I feel like over time.

Like in Miami, as an example,
you know the Schiller team.

We just rented a house that
could fit everyone so we could

actually like get together as a
team for everyone that was able

to go and then we just chill
there for like the first half of

every day, have breakfast
together and just chill and do

some work and have a swim, and
then the rest of the events that

I went to were, by and large,
like smaller gatherings, and

I've definitely made, when I'm
looking at what to put on the

books for sure, in terms of
events, it's usually the smaller

format once, because you're
never going to be able to have a

great conversation with
everyone you want to when you go

to one of these things you're
definitely not going to if you

only ever go to the raves or
parties or clubs or whatever.

So, yeah, I try and go to a
couple of the smaller things

each day in the evenings and
that worked out way better.

Like I came home still feeling
like a fairly intact whole human

being, whereas in the past and
the first couple of things I

went to, I was like I cannot
talk to anyone for a while.

Yeah, just from being like over
socialized, I guess.

And yeah, for sure, yeah, I
don't know.

I think in the space also really
serves introverts well.

I think the ease of kind of
like I don't know, choosing to

just like, not go on Twitter or
not check your DMs or emails or

whatever is really appealing.

To just like, like if you're on
a Twitter space, it's not that

awkward to just leave, you know,
even if you're like on the

stage, whereas if you're like in
a circle of friends and you

just wander off like, people are
like what the fuck are they

doing?

Like, are they okay?

Like, did I say something?

And those things are always
like stressful for introverts.

She's like oh, was I awkward?

Should I have said I was
leaving?

And there's something I think
appealing to introverts is about

the ephemeral sides of digital
identity the ability to like,

enter and exit freely and to
change as well, like to show up,

you know, as a different avatar
or whatever every day if you

wanted to.

I think it's appealing.

Speaker 1: Dude, I couldn't
agree with you more, and

something that I thought about
was, kind of like, the arguments

around digital identity now are
almost like they're not the

same, but they're in the same
tone or the same.

Yeah, just the same tone of
like the way video games were

gonna ruin everyone's lives, you
know, and how video games

caused violence or video games
we're not gonna be anything,

you're not productive when
you're playing video games and

we're kind of like having it's
like a very similar, you know,

theme where it's like, you know,
some of the best gamers are

some of the best NFT traders,
you know, cause they understood

digital goods and concepts and
digital identity and the

importance of that.

Speaker 2: Rinscape yeah, and
also a lot of those people are

like in long time.

Speaker 1: Rinscape Maxis yeah,
dude, that's what I'm saying, I

feel like I miss.

I'm more of a call of duty,
halo, shoot them up kind of guy,

you know so like.

But you know that's the
importance of like working with

a team digitally.

You know, like we were getting
very early experiences of

digital communities of people
that had similar interests.

You know that we may not have
met I say may not that we

probably would not have met
otherwise at that scale, you

know.

And then there was the birth of
eSports and everything that's

happening there.

So it's like I feel like this is
kind of like that same

conversation where people are
very scared about, you know, if

I can't see their face and I
can't trust them.

It's like I think I told you at
the earliest spot, like I think

in his podcast, like there's a
lot more people I trust.

Obviously there's people I know
their faces I trust very, very,

very dearly a lot.

But there's a lot more people
that I've met digitally where

it's like I've never met them
before or I've never seen their

face before, but yet there's
this weird sense of trust and it

kind of like throws that
argument out the window, you

know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think
the people who yeah, I think

like people in this space
understand or many of them

understand that you know it may
sound cheesy to say, but like

the only thing on par with the
immutability of a blockchain is

reputation and trust Like it's,
you know you can't help, but

remember when someone has wrong
view, or your friends or the

public at large, and I think the
people that get that you know

and who are really committed to
being here don't question like

oh, are the founders doxxed?

Like I don't give a shit, like
I don't need to know, and I

think that kind of comes down to
vibe check too, like I don't

need to see your LinkedIn, like
or your face, like I need to

like hear you speak.

Like Twitter spaces, like Live
Audio is great for that where

people have to kind of you know,
are forced to, by and large,

show up like as they are and to
be who they are.

It's harder to curate yourself
in real time than it is to, you

know, fake something on the
timeline.

And, yeah, for me it was like I
personally can't imagine you

know, trying to ever do
something maliciously and like

ruining whatever goodwill that I
have accumulated or rep, you

know like it's very important to
me to act, yeah, like, in an

ethically sound way.

Yeah, exactly, it's just like,
because it's like I'm finally

like.

You know, like I think I spent a
lot of my life prior wondering

if I would ever meet or be
surrounded by people that I felt

disinspired as I do here and in
, if I'd ever find an

environment that consistently
captured my interest and

motivated me to learn and to not
be stagnant, because I have

horrendous ADHD and so it's very
easy for me to like figure

something out, get bored like
slack or just like do something

else, whereas I haven't had that
experience here and yeah.

So I think you know it's, yeah,
I think for people that feel

similarly like lucky to have
found the group of friends that

they found in the space, or to
be surrounded by the people

they're surrounded and have the
access to information and

connections that they have, you
know, for having acted like with

some degree of like honor and
transparency or authenticity, I

just I think those people, by
and large, like are not gonna

throw that away or spin up a new
like.

You know I can't spin up like a
new social account and like

come up with an accent Like I'm
horrible at accents, but like

the thought of that I just like
can't imagine ever.

You know like it's.

I think there's like a ton of
kind of like natural or organic

motivation to act accordingly.

I think, yeah, people feel
really lucky to have the

opportunities they have and
wanna do whatever they can to

preserve those opportunities or
the possibility of future

opportunities, whether they're
like meeting great people that

they form awesome friendships
with, or like building something

dope that people wanna care
about.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Dude, yeah, I
think you've summed up a lot of

my thoughts.

Like I couldn't have said it
better.

Man, I think about that
constantly.

Of course, like as a human, you
know, we all have our

shortcomings, and like there's
thoughts that will pass through,

but it's like I never, I never
think twice to act on them.

It's like no, there's no way
I'd ever, I'd ever,

intentionally do something
because it matters that much.

I've never very similar to you.

I was like I missed out on a lot
of the early days of the

internet well, number one cause
I was like 10, you know.

So it's like not much
opportunity to be had there at

10, you know.

But the web too, kind of like
early days of you know some of

the, you know e-commerce and
like social platforms and stuff

like that.

I missed out on that too, you
know, and so that was part of it

.

So it's like, damn, I just want
to be around smart people who

like sharpened me to be a better
human, and like now that I

found that, like there's no way
I'd even think about considering

tarnishing that reputation and
like showing up the way I like

and like just consistently doing
my best to show up the way I

like I know I can't because it
actually matters, results matter

, like results matter here and
showing up, you know, showing up

matters and not just like
tweeting GM and then going back

to bed.

You know, that's kind of like
what I've taken from that.

So I want to.

You know, we've been going for
about an hour and a half an hour

and 40.

I want to start wrapping things
up here, man, cause I know we

both got to go eat, but you know
I was occasionally checking

your vault out and I think I
might start doing this.

So you're the first Is.

I noticed a piece by Alice A
called Between Realms and I

remember when you picked it up,
I was super jealous and I was

looking at it.

You're super jealous and, like,
I fucking love this piece and

would love to like, as kind of
like a sign off as well,

including your links of like
showing, like I like explaining,

like where or like what was
what made you want to collect

this?

So like, what did you see in
this piece?

Speaker 2: Yeah, here, let me
pull it up.

I, yeah, would definitely like
to be looking at it when I speak

about it.

But yeah, I had been noticing
Alice's work for quite a while,

like just very struck by
something to do with each piece,

like I feel like I gravitate
towards artists whose work

pushes me to either think about
something or feel something or

makes me uncomfortable in some
way.

This piece definitely made me
uncomfortable.

This collection coping
mechanisms is beautiful, like so

well curated, the I'll read the
description and owed to the

escapism that keeps us afloat,
to escape the feeling realm as a

coping mechanism that projects
us into the safety of other

worlds beyond our own, where
identity and memory are lost and

weightlessness is found.

It is to come out of one's body
and into no thought, a

suspension of oneself floating
in their own abyss.

There is a cathartic beauty to
this happening, and to recognize

it is to claim its intricate
entanglement with our wholeness

as sentient creatures.

So, bars right there, man, yeah
.

So, as someone who has
definitely leaned on many coping

mechanisms throughout their
life and who has, you know, I've

gotten therapy for years have
really tried to work on that, to

be more comfortable with myself
, to be more comfortable or

appreciative of, like my past
self.

And, yeah, I thought that this
collection coping mechanisms was

just beautiful and really
profound.

And each image yeah, if you
link it in the description of

this when it comes out, I highly
recommend people to check it

out.

But each image is really
showing symbolic representation

of a coping mechanism in between
realms.

For me, the description of this
piece is I lifted and my soul

became a reflection of who I
longed to be and, as I kind of

referenced earlier, I, you know,
for a long time, really

wondered, like, am I ever gonna
find my place in the world?

I still wonder about that, you
know, to some degree.

But yeah, I was waiting for,
you know, is it gonna be a

certain job?

Is it gonna be like a certain
friend group?

And then I stumbled into this
space and I really felt like I,

you know it was a big leap of
faith and it, you know, has so

far worked out pretty great and
I felt much more aligned, you

know, in present, of whom I once
kind of wanted to be, or at

least like how.

You know how I wanted to be
spending my time and what kind

of impact I wanted to have.

So this piece really
represented a lot of that to me.

And visually, like, of course,
it's stunning.

And this mirrored reflection of
oneself over the water, like

really made me think about how,
as a fully pseudonymous person

in this space, who's, you know,
quite guarded with, like I don't

docs, like shout out everyone
that doesn't ever take a picture

or something at an event I'm
quite guarded over having my,

like IRL identity and digital
identity separate and yet

they're so close, you know.

So it made me think of like at
what point, you know, am I kind

of falling too deeply into the
realm of my digital self or the

realm in which that self is
expressed, and I just hovering

between it, as this like subject
is, and how different is the

reflection between my real self
and my digital self?

And looking at this like they
are mirrored images and that's

something that I've always been
very intentional in trying to

preserve Like I had worries over
entering this space as fully

pseudonymous person and allowing
the air of like anonymity to

kind of coerce me into like
acting inauthentically, and what

I found was the complete
opposite.

Speaker 1: Thank you for joining
us on another episode of the

Schiller Vaulted Podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

Unfortunately, we did have to
cut this recording short due to

some internet quality issues on
both of our ends.

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