Speaker 1: GEM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to Vaulted, a Web3

podcast series from the Schiller
Archives.

This episode was originally
recorded on June 25, 2022 and

features the incredible art
collector and technologist,

shikai.

Prior to Web3, shikai
co-created Google Earth as well

as led the efforts to guide
Niantic, which are the creators

of the game Pokemon Go, into the
world of Web3.

Shikai is also the founder of
Monolith Gallery, which has sold

over $300,000 worth of art and
has positively impacted the

lives of many artists in the
space.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be interpreted as
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now.

Grab some coffee as we dive
into the world of Shikai.

Gem, shikai, how are you GEM?

Speaker 2: How are you, man
Boone?

Good good, it's great to talk
to you after meeting, I guess,

nft, nyc and reaching out before
I don't think I connected you.

When I first saw you they said,
oh, in the pocket.

Oh yeah, it's cool to meet you
in person in New York.

Speaker 1: Shikai.

Yeah, you know, what's funny is
I interviewed John Noth a

little earlier.

When I met him at the Chats
Gallery over there, he actually

didn't recognize me because he
only recognized me by the dog on

my profile picture on Twitter.

He actually kind of stoned me a
little bit because he was being

bombarded by people coming up
to him and asking him to get to

know him a little bit more.

I remember thinking, damn,
that's kind of cool man.

After I posted a tweet, when I
took a picture with Kath, he was

like, holy shit, that was you.

It's like, yeah, man, that was
me.

You need to wear a picture with
your dog t-shirt on because I

had no idea.

But yeah, man, I remember
seeing Boone.

Speaker 2: That was the opposite
for Okay, shikai, I remember

seeing you, boone, I remember
seeing you.

Speaker 1: Shikai.

All right, I'm going to let you
go ahead.

I'm going to let you go ahead.

Speaker 2: Boone, it seems to be
a slight delay.

Shikai, yeah, for me I had the
exact opposite problem, because

my face is my face on my Twitter
profile, so people wouldn't

know exactly who I was coming up
to me.

It was kind of funny.

Speaker 1: But go ahead, boone.

And I remember thinking like I
remember seeing the pro, but I

only saw you from the side.

When I saw you at NFT NYC, I'm
like I've only seen your picture

from the front.

I'm like, is that him Shikai?

So yeah, man, it's been a
pleasure to connect.

I remember seeing, I think,
where I first I don't really

know where I first learned about
you.

I think it was on a space about
photography or something that

Samantha Kavit shared or
something.

And I remember seeing you in a
space and I'm like holy shit,

man, this guy helped do all
these.

I'm not going to give you, I'm
not going to give your intro for

you, but I remember looking at
your background.

I'm like wow, who the hell is
this guy?

I mean, he collects some
amazing work and he seems to be

really involved here.

So I Like that was like how I
ran into you.

Speaker 2: Boone Cool yeah.

And Samantha Kavit.

I met her for the first time at
NFT NYC, so it's so awesome to

see her.

I'd known her for like oh,
since I started, almost.

But yeah, it is.

I appreciate you noticing me, I
guess, but it is.

It's been a crazy ride through
this NFT sort of journey.

Speaker 1: Man that's.

I think that's an
understatement.

I think you're selling a little
bit short there.

So for those who don't know you
, let me have you do a brief

introduction to yourself, man.

Speaker 2: Sure, I guess I'll
almost go backwards.

I'll start from what I'm doing
now and then go backwards.

So this past year I guess I'll
shutting down my company at the

end of the beginning of the last
year, 2021, and as I was

shutting down, I was like I need
something fun to do, because

shutting down a company is
always just depressing and never

fun.

And so I was all looking at
this thing called NFTs, like I

had no idea what it was, and I
think what piqued my interest

was when I saw Nyan Cat sell for
like a half million or whatever

it was.

It was like they were like what
the hell is going on?

And of course, the people sell
after that just like went to

another level, like, and so I
started to look into it,

research it, and then I bought a
NFT about another NFT another.

It was actually from.

It wasn't actually somebody who
was really well known, it was

from a guy named Nabil Hayat.

He actually is someone in the
Valley, and so I bought it from

him.

I had this.

The reason I bought it was
actually not necessarily

entirely for NFTs.

It was because I was building
this display system, this like

three panel display system, four
panel actually display system.

That was basically a digital
version of a Japanese Biobu,

which, like those folding
screens with the art on it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was like I need something
cool to show on it.

Speaker 2: The Bios piece was
cool and NFTs was around, so I

bought that one and then I
bought other ones, but they're

all fairly small.

At the time, like Merch Rebecca
, I think it was the second one

I've actually, so that's also
where I saw you from, too.

Speaker 1: Mariska was one of
the first artists, like one of

one artists that I collected
from yeah.

Speaker 2: Cool, she's awesome,
she was just like.

She's such a great sort of
spirit and sort of just positive

sort of personality, and I
think that initially it wasn't

photography, it was I mean,
nowadays I'm more known for my

photography collection but, like
, initially it was all 3D art

and more of that stuff and it
took a long time for me to get

into photography.

Same, but that's where it
started.

Speaker 1: So Got it, man.

Yeah, we actually have a very
similar journey, because what

drew me to Mariska's was just
the vibrant kind of like purple,

psychedelic astronaut, kind of
like space vibe thing, because I

collected one of her pieces on
Ethereum.

It was an edition on Makers
Place and then I collected like

Then I realized that like I
could collect on Tezos for like

way cheaper and I'm like, okay,
cool, let me go buy like two of

her pieces on Tezos, but yeah,
one of the very first like true

artists that I collected from.

Because I think in the
beginning you know, just to

share a similar story, I'm not
sure what your background in

crypto was before this, but mine
was nothing.

Speaker 2: Mine was nothing too.

I had never bought crypto.

I had never I've read the you
know like Satoshi White Paper,

and I knew about it.

I knew technology, but I had
not actually actively

participated at all, so this was
definitely my first time ever

participating in crypto period
Like anything to do with crypto.

Speaker 1: So you and me have a
similar on-ramp, you know,

because I would have never given
you know, I would have never

given two shits about crypto if
it wasn't for NFTs.

Like I mean because you know,
because when I saw this

happening, I'm like, okay, cool,
like Bitcoin.

Like I, again, like you, I knew
what it was, but at the same

time like why, where can I spend
this money?

Why is it valid?

I didn't have enough time or
like really, quite frankly,

enough curiosity to like
actually understand, like why it

was so valuable until you
actually could layer culture on

top of it.

You know, totally totally.

Speaker 2: Yeah, the culture pro
is huge.

I can't remember who else I
bought after that, but like it

was a very interesting journey
so it was sort of going

backwards.

So the NFTs in the past year it
just blew up, Yep.

But before NFTs, again like we
said, I had no crypto, anything

but a lot of my career before
that was with Google Earth and

Google Maps.

I started a company or a
company called Keyhole back in

2000.

And that was acquired by Google
in 2004, which became Google

Earth and Google Maps, and so
that was a large part of my

career before that.

And then before that, like I was
not even doing you know, sort

of mapping.

I was doing biomedical
engineering.

So I undergraduate and my PhD
are in bottom engineering, which

is more like medical imaging
type stuff, and my PhD was at

like 3% of the heart.

And so I went from medical
imaging to mapping and then now

to crypto and art, which is like
you never anticipate your

career going these directions,
but just life leads you in these

strange ways.

You know, if you asked me in
college what I'd be when I grew

up, I said I want to become a
professor.

During research teaching at a
university, never even thought

about going into
entrepreneurship or even working

at a company, Because I thought
working at a company was oh,

you go for a company and you
work there for your entire

career, you get a pension, you
retire, but in the valley it was

like you switched jobs every
four years.

It's so different now that it's
just my perception of what it

was was not what it actually was
, and so it just been a crazy

journey.

And again, I would not have
anticipated this turn.

It was not a planned event.

It's like when I went down the
rabbit hole NFTs.

It's like I felt backwards, not
knowing where I was going, and

then just sunk deep, deep into
it, and so it was not on purpose

.

I sort of tripped the hole and
fell down deep.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean wow
that's.

I mean there's a lot to unpack.

I didn't know you had a PhD,
it's actually.

I actually just had Alex Mack
on here, the other that's

actually the next episode that
today that we're recording is

actually dropping on Monday.

So recordings, you know, but
yeah, it's super interesting.

So I mean, when you went down
that path of like wanting to

like get your PhD, was that I'm
just curious?

Was that a lot of motivation
from your parents?

Was that like a genuine
curiosity?

Like what was it that made you
like want to go down that route

in the beginning?

Like what you got this whole
thing started in the first place

?

Speaker 2: You know, I think
maybe it's partly parents, but

like, also, that's what I always
thought I would be doing.

I was definitely much more of a
technical sort of engineering

minded person and much more into
that kind of stuff and and

honestly I would I ended up
doing product management for

over a decade at Google.

I would never have predicted
doing that.

And then, you know, like the
company I did was I was a CEO of

a company.

I always thought I'd be a CTO
but never a CEO.

So my, my sort of evolution in
my career is very different.

So it very much started there
and I and I also want to be a

professor Seemed like I liked
the deep thinking sort of

analysis and sort of really
understanding something and the

scientific sort of process and
so and and it just what I always

thought I'd be doing and that's
a path I was taking and so I

always thought I'd do a PhD but
like, yeah, it just, it, just it

, just it's just.

I don't know if it was a
thought process necessarily, but

I always good at science and
math and stuff, so that's the

path I thought I'd go take.

Speaker 1: Makes sense why
crypto is a little bit more like

.

Why it's appealing is just it's
a.

It's a lot of math.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and the funny
thing is is that you know, the

same time I was doing all this
math and science and you know I

went to the international
science fair when I was in high

school and won the regional
science fair for when I was a

kid.

So there's a lot of that sort
of success that happened during

my early academic high school
years, but also like the same

time when I was a teenager, as I
taught myself piano and started

writing songs and stuff and did
a lot of music and art stuff

and so, but it wasn't at the
forefront.

It did come out till later in
terms of house, if I said now,

but it's interesting to see how
they all develop.

And the other interesting
tidbit that I think that's from

from that growth period in that
time is that it was, if you look

at your past, like you look at
your parents, what they do, your

kids like, oh, what are my
parents do?

You don't care about it.

It's like you don't even want
to do what your parents do just

because it's your parents, right
?

But my dad was an architect and
so there's this blend of

aesthetic design, of having to
do design a building that is, is

, is, is just has design sense,
yet it has to still stand up.

It can't like fall down.

There's an injury component to
it.

So I think that blend of the
two came from I'm almost

subconsciously through my dad
and what he did, and so it's

interesting how that's
manifested later on because, you

know, nft has a very strong
sort of engineering component to

it, but with NFTs there's also
a very strong sort of design,

artist, artistic stamp as as
well as sort of aspect of which

is just as important as the
engineering sort of technical

sort of deep sort of crypto
aspect of it.

So so that journey is very
interesting.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine.

So you know, are you?

So may I ask like do your, do
your parents still like when you

, when you like, meet up for
dinner or meet up for gatherings

?

Does they understand anything
of what you're doing right now?

Speaker 2: My dad, actually
follows me on Twitter.

He even shows up in my spaces
and so he keeps on it pretty

closely.

He'll, like you know, text me
or email me when he sees what's

going on.

But I think he's watched it.

I I don't know if he truly
understands NFTs.

I think he does, but I've never
really quizzed him on it.

But, like, I think he
understands it, but it's, it's,

it's cool because he pops up in
spaces every once in a while and

says, oh, there's my dad, and
now he hits that's so awesome,

that's so awesome and like, not
only, not only, not only is that

, but just to have your dad on
Twitter.

Speaker 1: You know that that is
a you know cause my, my, my mom

doesn't like.

You know, my parents barely
like.

They use Facebook pretty
religiously now, you know, but

like they, they can't even
fathom using Twitter, like the,

the fact that, like they're
friends list isn't curated.

People could just ask you out
of nowhere, like you know,

twitter just does not, you know,
does not resonate with them.

They're just like you know, I
don't, I don't like Facebook's

fine, cause they can do though,
they can curate it, they can

manage it, they can do all this
other stuff with it.

You know where they only see
certain things.

Um, so, yeah, twitter, twitter
is, uh, Twitter's a wide world.

But I actually, this past
weekend, educate, you know, my,

I planted the seed with my
parents a long time ago and I

think, until I made my first
sale, you know, and NFTs, my

parents really didn't take any
of what I was doing like very

seriously.

Like there's always, it's
always really.

It was like cautious optimism,
right, like they weren't going

to like not support what I was
doing, but they're kind of just

like, all right, what it you
know is this is this, is this,

is this, is this, is this really
a thing?

Um, and I remember planting the
seed a while back and actually

this weekend, my mom actually
says she's like, okay, like

what's a wallet?

Speaker 2: And I'm like yes, yes
.

Speaker 1: Uh, finally got it to
ask the question.

Um, you know, cause the the?

The challenge I think when I
would try to onboard people is I

would just share all of like,
not only just the facts but also

like my imagination layered
with those facts, and they would

just confuse the ever living
hell Like no one.

No one knew what to do.

They'd be lately more confused
than when they came in and I

just said, you know, there's got
to be a different approach,

like there's got to be.

she's like, you know, now she's
trying to understand a wallet

and now she's like well, I'd
probably buy a piece from you

know one of my friends, jacob,
and probably buy a piece from

someone locally appear at our,
at our house, um, and I know

she's just like enamored with
Samantha's work because she's a

huge Monet fan and Samantha has
a lot of inspiration from Monet.

Speaker 2: No, she's amazing.

I love Samantha's work.

Uh, it's just, it's just, it's
just, it's just, it's just, it's

just, it's just, it's just.

And she had that recent sale
like her all time high the other

day.

I was so happy for her.

She, he's definitely, and
amongst her persons, and I guess

she I didn't realize that she
was, I think, staying with

Summer Wagner.

Summer, yep, yup.

Speaker 1: In Summers.

Amazing, and I mean I mean,
look at both, both of them.

It's like the world of Twitter
just discovered their work,

because I think Summer almost
had almost 50 pieces just sold

out in like a week.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a lot of
people had the same idea.

I was lucky.

I had an amazing night with her
, samantha, I was somewhere by

Samantha, anacondo, grayson and
then Felix.

We all hung out together and it
was just an amazing night and

really connected with them.

And so I was like, oh, I do
want to get one of Summer's

pieces.

And I think, for whatever
reason, every other collector

had the exact same idea, right,
and so I put it up in as only

one other one in auction.

And then the next morning there
are like 10 bids going on at

the same time and then, like I
got outbid like multiple times I

thought, okay, maybe I won't
win a piece, but luckily I got

two.

But like I wasn't sure I'd win,
so it was just amazing to see

that happen.

And then Samantha, having her
all time high, like, oh, I was

so happy for her.

Speaker 1: So 100%, and I
actually had her on the show

about a month ago.

You know, it was actually her
first podcast.

That's actually yeah, man.

Yeah, I found her through Joey
the photographer.

I'm not sure if you've seen his
work.

Speaker 2: Yes, I have.

Speaker 1: So I had him on in
December and then he's like I

was in a DM with him around a
phone call.

He's like, dude, you got to
check out Summer and you got to

check out Samantha.

Like that was actually.

That actually came as a
recommendation from him and so

that's how I got onboarded to
both of their work and it's just

like, wow, you know, just some
of the most incredible talent

I've ever seen.

I think for me I'm coping a
little bit because I, as I

mentioned earlier, I'm still
building my backup and right now

, I can't really afford a.

Samantha piece or a summer piece
right now.

But you know, if the thing,
though, about the space is that,

with creators like that is that
you know, I mean Obviously

nothing's guaranteed, but like I
know, with like in my bones,

that like they're not going
anywhere, you know, like they're

, they're like they're here to
stay, like they just just the

way they interact, the way they
do their work, the way they I

mean now they actually have
proper funding to do it even

better, you know.

So it's like if this is, if
this is ground zero I mean they

just got a lot of capital
injected what's gonna happen to

their work in the future, you
know, right?

So I think there's always this
fear of like missing out on

their early work, but at the
same time, you know, it's like

it doesn't mean that it's like
gone forever.

That was like my biggest fear.

I'm like shit, like I'm just
sitting here watching.

I'm like I'm equally excited,
but I'm like what about the

little guy?

You know, so it's been an
incredible, like journey to

watch, and I mean so let's,
let's like switch, like let's,

let's talk about some of your
gallery, man, like you recently

announced like monolith gallery,
and I want to like yeah, get it

from you.

Like what is that?

How did that come about?

Like what was?

Like?

You and I heard you in some
spaces Talk about how this has

just been a journey to create.

It's been a lot of hard work.

So I want to, I want to, I want
to hear a little bit more about

this and where this all started
.

Speaker 2: I think that you know
.

It started off, as you know,
something pretty simple and it

grew into something much, much
bigger, and the response from

the community has been amazing.

But the way it started was I
was thinking about the gallery

space, and a lot of the gallery
spaces were, basically that's

almost exact sort of the sort of
like I think often referred to

as like Skeomorphic sort of
representation of what exists in

the real world.

So often they were Mm-hmm, the
neural white walls, the gallery

space as you see it at a museum,
just done within Virtual

reality or the metaverse.

And so my thought was, like you
know, the metaverse can be

anything and it can be
absolutely anything.

So why not Reimagined it in in
something new that wasn't just a

one-for-one representation of
what a gallery looked like in

the real world, and so the
premise was, instead of having

the room be like a room in a
house, have the room be the

landscape of the earth.

It's a.

Basically, it's some great
landscape.

So the earth is the, is the a
gallery, and then have art drop

down from the sky, as these
giant modelists like from like a

Space movie or sci-fi movie.

They drop down from the sky in
this giant format and and just

sort of float there Above, like
you know, the land or the bay or

the ocean or something.

And that's where it started.

And so my initial idea was more
this AR type experience where

it says you have this sort of
like, you see it out there.

I thought, you know, I there's
probably way to do this without

having to go that far.

Yet I think AR has technology
up there exactly yet.

Yeah, this is what I had in my
head, and so I said, okay, what

I work with landscape
photographers to give me sort of

like the earth as the gallery,
and then Do it through a web

browser to drop down these
pieces, and so they would float

down, they come in and out
through the frame, and so that's

where it started.

And so, and so I reached out to
photographers and alarm said,

yes, I was it meet Samantha
Kavit said yes, she's

contributing piece, which is
amazing.

And so it was a combination of
photographers and eventually

three artists who contributed
pieces.

But the second problem was how,
what do I put in the gallery?

And initially I thought you
know, maybe I'll do it, I'll

curate it myself and like I'll
pull up from my collection or

ask people to do it.

And then I thought that's gonna
be a lot of work, and so I

thought what happens if I just
made it an open curation system

where anybody could submit their
work and then I'd sort of

display them within the
galleries?

And I thought I have multiple
halls.

It would just be one gallery,
but it'd be like 21 halls with

different wings of a museum, and
then those wings of the museum

will be named after artists.

Like you have a, like a wealthy
sort of billionaire, no,

they're going to museum.

They built a whole wing of a
museum for them and they named

that wing after them.

Well, this is like the artist
could contribute their work, you

know, and then I would create a
whole wing or a hall and Then

name it after the artist.

And so Samantha Kavit sort of
contribution was called Kavit

Hall, ruin Ruis Wu Hall there's
a bunch of great artists there

in there, and so that's where
that came from, from that sort

of that, that evolution, and so
by having the open curation

system, you know, allowed me to
bring in a lot more work and

also diverse work that I may not
have not seen, and so that's

been probably one of the most
amazing parts of it.

They may have started on this
concept of the reimagining the

gallery space.

But the part that's been
amazing is just the amount, just

the diversity of art and
artists and art forms that have

come in A lot of this
photography, because that's my

community but it's also been all
across the world and all kinds

of different kinds of industry
and more diverse as time goes on

, to really create these, the
sort of curate or to bring

together these Pieces that I
just I would not have seen.

Like there's a whole bunch of
artists from Nigeria, ethiopia,

south America, all across the
world and it's just been Amazing

to see that and that's been the
, the the big part and we went

was an fdnyc.

You know most the people came
up to me Also come into the

monolith gallery and how much
they appreciated and liked it.

So I was really thankful for
that feedback from people that

you know, the, that it was doing
some good within the community.

Speaker 1: That's all.

I mean.

That's awesome, man, and I
think you answered a few

questions.

But I want to ask a couple of
questions.

I mean, this seems a kind of
like step one right now, because

I, you know, what you'd
mentioned earlier is that you

know AR and VR.

You know, whatever, whatever
the R is that ends up dominating

is not really, it's not as
fleshed out yet, and I'm, you

know, I'm a big proponent, I'm a
personal fan of AR over VR.

I don't like you too.

I I think that, like I still
think that earth is a really

cool place, I think we can just
like enhance earth a little bit

more.

You know Versus, like you know,
do the whole ready player, one

narrative that a lot of people
In this space for some reason

tend to gravitate towards.

I don't, I've never understood
them.

Like that's not actually what I
want.

I mean it's not, it's not
actually what I want.

Um on this gallery is it?

Are these all pieces that are
currently on chain?

Is there like ways to like
navigate to the to the sale of

these?

Are these, are these part of,
just like Private collections of

of the people that curated this
?

How does that, how does that
like curation process work?

How do you go about, even like
selecting the curators and then

like have them, have them take
the work and put it up on there?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so all the
pieces are pieces that are on

chain.

That all NFTs, all the theory
of change.

My hope is to support other
chains like tessa to.

This is a big one.

There's a lot of artists.

Artists are there but
eventually they'll happen.

But it is all NFTs.

It's entities that either
you've created or you own.

And so it's for collectors,
like there's several collectors,

like guy nor cow did a curation
for the inaugural exhibition.

Uh lord trumpeted in one
recently an exhibition, three or

four, and so there's collectors
in there.

A lot of them tend to be
artists.

What they created, it's a way
to showcase their work.

And there are some artists who
are actually curating Uh work

they've collected or their
friends, like um Cole rise did a

whole bunch from his personal
collection, even though he's an

artist himself.

He also did a whole monolith
gallery.

But there's also a bunch of
artists who get together to

curate a takeover of all
monoliths.

So they're gonna work together
to collaborate and with these

curations you can pick from your
own collection or your own ones

you've created, or you can
collaborate with others To say

add others and collaborate.

They can add their pieces,
whether they've created or

collected, and so there is a
collaborative component to it.

Uh, and so it's, it's it.

There's always a do it.

Basically it's NFT, and the
reason why I kept it whether you

created or owned it is just to
Just to be respectful of what uh

has been written on chain, so
People are allowed to do it, if

people own it, who bought it,
the collectors To show off their

collection, or the artists who
created it, and so, uh, and

there is some ways to bend it a
little bit, but I I want to make

sure there's permission from
those owners and those creators.

Uh, and the easiest way to do
it is is by using a wallet.

They sign in with a wallet and
whatever that wallet has you can

use and they can do
collaborations, and there is a

way to do it manually, because
sometimes you need to do it for

special cases, but those are
flagged as manual and I'll

review them much more carefully
to make sure there's permission

from them.

And it's not like there's any
legal or any particular Reason

to it, but it's out of respect,
in short, of just courtesy to

those artists and collectors.

Speaker 1: I like that and that
that was you.

You answered another question.

Is that like is if the, if the
process was manual or if it was

like a wallet connect thing
where you could, you could

literally just Pull pieces from?

Uh, pull pieces from that,
that's, that's really cool?

I mean, I, you have an, you
have a pretty impressive like

the.

The site's impressive the way,
the way the, the way the art

comes down.

It kind of like bounces a
little bit before you scroll it,

like I, I enjoy that.

Um, you know, when it comes to
like v2, what is v2 of this look

like for you?

Speaker 2: I want to pick your
man.

Speaker 1: I want to get into
your imagination, man, like

that's because I know with, with
your like, with with who you

are, from what I know of you and
and what this is like.

This is, this is almost very
like.

This is very early days for you
.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think
that you know this was actually

there's Three stages to this
this first part and then.

So the first two pages were the
monolith gallery site itself,

uh, which was launched.

The second part was actually
having my super rare space.

So I was competing in super
space space race two.

You know, I did actually space
space one.

I lost.

I tried again and wanted space
race two and very happy how it's

going very well, uh, and so
that's part two, which is to

have the super space where I
could sell work, and that's sort

of my way to sort of pick out
the ones I really want to lift

up from either the general
community or from the ones that

have Put curations within
monolith gallery and lift them

up in that super space to sell
that.

Because super is, like I think,
one of the top Uh brand, for

sure for entity platforms.

It is the one that artists are
just, you know, coveted to get

into, uh, most coveted to get
into, and so I wanted to use

that uh brand and platform to
help lift up artists with that

in.

Stage three Is coming, uh, I
haven't announced it yet so I

won't say anything yet, but, uh,
maybe we can do a podcast about

it, when I, when, uh, when I
get closer to it, uh, but, uh,

but that's sort of like the
initial concept and a lot of

it's just broadening what
monolith gallery does.

But in terms of v2 of the site,
I mean, there is an ar

component but, um, you know, I
think it's almost.

It's going to be this blend of
what I have in my head, but also

listening to the community and
seeing what resonates and what

works and some ways, you know, I
don't want to change the format

because there's something nice
about, like most Galleries, or

even just say, instagram or just
twitter, you scroll through and

you find the one you like they
look at.

There's a lot of like, like
looking through a grid of icons

and then you even like
foundation, you pick the one you

want.

But when you walk through a
gallery, there's a physical time

to walk from piece to piece and
you're enjoying each piece one

by one, and so I like the fact
that when you come to mouth, you

have to go through all of them.

You don't look there great, you
almost like virtually walking

through, uh, and then you have
these pieces that you have to

focus on each other telling.

Speaker 1: So I got it.

Yes, you know I talk about real
life scenarios.

Can you hear the duck?

Yeah, you know she, she's,
she's crate trained, she, she

can actually sense the truck
outside, like in her crate's,

not even near the window.

Speaker 2: Uh, what's your dog's
name?

Speaker 1: Her name is princess
leah.

Speaker 2: No way, yeah, no way.

So what did you call her
princess?

Speaker 1: leah, or the coral
leah, or I mean so.

Her dog tag technically says
princess leah, like it, like I?

People are like are you serious
?

I'm like, I'm dead serious,
right, I'm dead serious.

Um, now, day to day, though,
you know, um, you know, leah is

typically what I call her, or
you know, little girl, or goober

, or you know the all the things
that, all, the all, the all the

names that come to you as a
parent.

You know that you didn't plan
on having that.

You just call them by, by by
nature.

Funny side story, man, that's
actually how.

That's actually part of my
Branding here.

You know, when it comes to
Boona and Boona fide, that's, uh

, my mom actually called me.

Boona is has.

No, there's no like rhyme or
reason of why she called me that

.

It was just something as a mom
that came to her and, uh, I was

always so embarrassed as a kid
when she would call me that

Because I was like, you know,
like it, you know, my face would

turn bright red.

Speaker 2: I was always super
embarrassed like.

Speaker 1: I'm gonna call me
that.

So, when I was thinking of,
like, my branding, when this

whole thing started was like,
okay, you know, like bonafide,

you know means genuine or, you
know, unauthentic, and so I said

why not when I'm creating
content you know, I started

creating a web too we chatted a
little bit earlier is that a lot

of the content is very
disingenuous.

The overwhelming majority of it
is in web too.

You know, it's, it's just.

And so I said you know what,
let me try to be, let me try to

be an authentic voice in this
space, and so, like, why not

become the person who, like, was
always like, I was always

embarrassed to be?

You know, it's just like being
my authentic self, adding an

extra oh and embracing, like
what I used to like run from,

you know.

Speaker 2: So A little little
bit, a little bit of a side

story there, but you know, we
call our, we call our kids

certain names and maybe think
about, like the the obi-wan

series, we have the little girl
who's princess leah, and so you

must be some, you know, a good
vibes for you watching that show

loved it, dude, I.

Speaker 1: I loved the.

The actress, um that they chose
for princess leah.

She was an absolute firecracker
.

I that was cute as a button man
.

No, exactly what you'd expect.

Did you finish?

Did you finish?

Speaker 2: I, I, I.

I'm one episode away, I think,
so do not tell me anything, I

won't I won't.

Speaker 1: Yeah, there's only
six, so I won't.

I won't tell you anything.

All say is you're gonna like it
, at least I did.

So you know there's any
consolation, but cool, cool.

I'm like I hopefully will watch
this weekend, so yeah, man, I'm

the the, the one that I'm
currently on right now.

That was a, that was a, that
was you know.

Of course, I benched that as
much, you know, finish it as

quick as I could, but I'm also
right now on the Andy Warhol

diaries on Netflix.

Oh, yeah, yeah very Netflix.

Speaker 2: Okay, I have to watch
that.

I definitely have to watch that
.

Speaker 1: Very, very well done.

I'm only on episode three, you
know, and with with the nature

of his art and his lifestyle, it
was like it was interesting,

like being on a plane, like, and
they were, they're like they

show quite a bit, you know.

So I'm sitting there like
watching this on my phone on the

plane.

I'm like People.

Speaker 2: People may have
questions about what I'm

watching here um, but very raw
I'm not.

Speaker 1: You know, I don't
typically know.

So just a A little bit more
about my story man, like I

didn't even realize I wanted to
collect art until I could

collect it digitally, if that
makes sense.

I I never, I never like
understood.

You know, I never understood it
, and maybe it was just a blend

of age and a blend of, like
personal interests or you know,

whatever the case may be, but
this is like my first take on

like art in general, like just
art history, art theory, you

know all these other things.

And so, like watching Andy
Warhol, that is a very, very

radical style and very different
from what you know.

Like when I, when I went to the
MoMA, I went through like the

1800s to early 1900s and it's
just like I went from that to

warhol.

I'm like holy.

Speaker 2: Big difference.

I have a similar like I was not
an art history major or have an

art background or even
collected art in any significant

way before NFTs.

So initially it was a bit
daunting and they're they're

definitely even now.

Like as I, as I do, curation,
like, like there is a bit of an

imposter syndrome because like,
right, how, who might have

judged what the curator what's
good or not, or whatever?

I mean I thought to more
artists, to people like I think

I'm getting more confidence that
you know it's all new, so it's,

it's, it's.

I feel better about it, but
like, still, I still have

imposter syndrome.

Like, what am I doing here?

Like, and and like I'm not a
art like expert, what am I doing

here?

And so so I spent a lot of time
learning.

A lot of the artists are
collected from a lot of people

in the community.

I've reached out to sort of
spend time with them to learn

about their craft and learn
about stuff and I think Is very

much.

You know, which I enjoy, which
is the learning and being a

student Of the craft and the art
that truly appreciated the.

Hopefully, over time, my
sophistication will grow, uh and

, and I will be able to
appreciate to more and more

depth, which I have, especially
with photography, um, and I

think that Hopefully others will
join that journey, because

initially it's like you know,
you see these pieces and they're

just crazy, or they just are
just amazing, whatever, whatever

they are, but then you start
digging deeper and all these

layers and how they do it and
what they've done and how it

relates to what's been done
before.

I think that creates this much
deeper sort of understanding and

knowledge of it that I think
Will only increase the value of

the stuff.

All the NFTs are out there, at
least good ones over time.

Speaker 1: Yeah, 100 and I and I
.

It's it's funny, it's.

I mean, it's it's interesting,
you say, because I feel you know

that that was part of the big
battle of like doing what I'm

doing right now is that, like,
who am I to like talk about

anything, even crypto related,
like I barely know how to?

You know, like I know enough to
like use the blockchain.

I know enough to like have
conversations with people.

I know, you know, and, but in
the beginning it was very much

Like I typically would not have
much of a voice in what I was

doing, you know, just because I
was mainly just asking questions

and kind of just like Figuring
out if I could actually hold a

conversation with everyone that
I had right.

So, but I what I think, just to
your point, though, what's

really interesting about just
the internet in general you can

even scratch out web three is
that you know Traditionally,

with you know with traditional
ways of like making it to the

top or making it to these like
established the you're making it

like to these like statuses, if
you will, I've always been gate

kept by like years and years of
like hey, you have to have this

credential.

You had to like go to school and
finishes.

So you had to like go through
all these years of training to

get to that point.

But now it's.

You know, if you have a genuine
intent to learn, who's to say

that you can't be one of the
best curators in the space.

You know, if you, if you lean
on more of these people to like

do this, if who's to say that
you can't?

I think it's a beautiful, I
think that's the beautiful part,

in my opinion, is that People
who come in here with an

authentic motive or like a
genuine curiosity to learn and

put people up and like
understand more about the craft.

Who cares like what Prudentials
you know?

Like who cares if you're an
actual curator?

Like what does that even mean
you?

Speaker 2: know, yeah, I think
there is a component that that

is such a green field as such a
new space, yeah, that there's

opportunity for everybody,
whether they knew or old or

Experience or not.

And I think that there is this
interesting dynamic where you

have People who are maybe art
wise or career wise, have not

had that much, but they've had
it like, they've been in like

NFTs for like a year or even a
year and a half and because of

that, because it was so fast,
their experts and so and their

legends in their own right and
just within the space, being

brand new to our, brand new to
the even medium and so forth.

But then there are others who
are Legends in their own right,

pre FTs in our history, world
photography and everything else,

and they are coming into this
brand-new to NFTs and so each

has its own experience and sort
of legendary status from

different elements, yet Each
also are completely brand new in

different ways.

And the fact that they're
everybody holds these two very

contrasting, almost like
diametrically opposed sort of

state at the same time.

And it makes sense and it feels
right because you're both new

and old at exactly the same time
as well, this short fingers cat

type thing where you're both a
dead cat and a live cat at the

same time, but you don't know
until you open the box.

And so there is this dual state
that everybody holds that I

think is really allows people to
come in, and that there's a

dual state also in terms of sort
of being deeply technical and

deeply artistic in knowing the
art, because you have to

somewhat hold both.

Because you got to understand a
little bit about crypto and

what it does.

You just couldn't be completely
like I don't want to do like

that.

You somewhat have to, and so
it's really Fascinating and I

think that creates a lot of
opportunity to break new ground

and to be part of something like
this Almost equal footing

coming in, because it's just
beginning.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't even
think about it like that.

So it's a very Boo.

And, as you were saying that,
I'm thinking about all the

people I've met and and is does
that experience my number work?

And I find work.

I find that experience of what
you were just saying.

And it brings me back to the
very first Well, not the very

first, but it was the second
interview I had with Jimmy dot

eath and and I remember thinking
I'm like why did you choose?

like yeah, I'm a nobody right,
like I was, like I came in like

I'm like nobody like why did you
, you know, why did you have me

on or why did you agree to come
on?

And he was like it's really
simple, you know, and I'm like

he's like you, like NFTs, so do
I, and so that we, we can talk

about him.

And that was that was as simple
as that.

But he's super deeply technical
and I don't really think I

understood where my skill set
lied, even though I was already

presenting it, but it was.

I think he saw something that I
didn't and so, again, it's you

know, an expert in one field or
a hone skill in their own right,

combined with another skill.

But this whole space is green,
but everything mixes together.

I think there's there's this,
there's this really interesting

mix of, you know, web 2 and web.

I guess, if you want, like call
it like, for all intents and

purposes, web 2.

To me it felt very siloed.

It felt very like you know it's
either this or that, or you had

to choose and make a decision
and had to sacrifice.

All these things were just,
even with my background in video

games.

It's not video games or web 3.

It's like no, no, it's video
games and web 3, it's art and

web 3.

It's technically it's
engineering and web it's, it's

it's communication and this
business there's, there's every,

there's room for literally
quite every skill set that's

imaginable here.

I don't think we've even
uncovered any of the new skill

sets that I mean.

Community manager has taken on
a whole new, has taken on a

whole new definition.

You know, when you look at I
think communities is.

Speaker 2: You think community
has been around for a while, but

I think web 3 communities
different in terms of the depth

of it.

It's almost like when social
media came along.

It's like, oh, it's just like
your ad responies, just like

your.

Your email is just or just
messaging, it's no different

from your address.

But but no, it is different.

And so I think the same thing
about community.

Everybody had idea of community
before, but the definition

community and the importance of
community is completely flipped

in web 3.

It is the primary thing you
build first, almost before you

build a product, and so I think
that is something that's really

really different, that I think
it's hard to get when you first

come in because you think, oh,
just community is this thing and

it's like the last thing.

Often companies look at they,
you know, look at a market and

so gives opportunity here.

They build a product, they take
it to market and they sell the

product and after it's sold, the
user has it.

Then you build community, that
people who bought the product.

And so Web 3 is the exact
reverse.

You start with the community,
then you build the product and

almost like you will sell it
actually before you have the

product.

It's almost a Kickstarter in
some regards.

And then you build the
community and then you know,

eventually everything comes out.

There's opportunity there, but
it's a.

It's a almost reverse sort of
Sort of model, but I think it's

incredibly hard for most in web
2 and some legacy companies to

sort of understand.

But I think that's something
that I think will evolve also,

but also they'll learn over time
.

But I'm curious if I'll ever
truly make the leap.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean because
we saw people that tried, we saw

brands that tried.

You saw like Budweiser and
Pepsi and you know Like that.

We remember that tragedy when
it happened.

Speaker 2: I mean that whole
thread.

Speaker 1: It just they.

They just clear exactly what
you said, though.

They came in they saw an
opportunity and they tried to

like, they tried to, they tried
to talk the lingo without

actually like Participating.

You know, the kids just tried
to like through a GM.

They threw out a wag me, they
threw out a friend, they threw

out a they.

It's like they knew all the
right things to say, but the

interesting part about that is
that this you know, the

community, like the community,
has actually built the space for

the brands to come play, versus
the exact opposite, where the

brands build the landscape and
we got to try to claw and fight

our way into that ecosystem.

You, know, so I think it's very
interesting and one question I

had is that you know, with with
your years of experience, do you

do you like consult with other
brands?

Do you like have like a bridge
where you try to like talk to

them, to onboard them and figure
out anything Like integrate

this whole web 3 into their
business model?

Do you do any of that?

Speaker 2: Well what I just
recently got hired by Niantic to

lead their sort of Web3 efforts
.

So I'm helping them do that.

I'm a very, very deep
perspective.

But I have talked to lots of
different sort of people because

you can see it before, like me
mentioned at Jimmy Eath, like to

be able to talk NFTs.

Like I don't, like definitely
six months ago, like I don't

knew nobody in my friend circle
or even my physical vicinity

that could talk it.

It was such a foreign language
and foreign concepts that you

just couldn't talk to anybody
about it because nobody really

talked about it.

You go on Twitter and there's
people all across the world talk

about it, but within, even
within the tech community, the

Silicon Valley community, like
there weren't that many that had

gone as deep as I had.

From the community side, a lot
of them like looked at

investments and side, but like
from truly digging deep into it

and going as heavy as I did, I
did not know almost anybody.

And so there are a lot of
people curious who'd asked me

and I became the one guy that
actually knew about NFTs within

that circle.

So they say, oh, can you talk
to my friend NFTs?

So I did some talks to some
CEOs or some very famous, you

know companies as well as you
know some VC firms, and giving

them perspectives on what's
going on.

And so I would do that.

But I also do it in a way that
was very balanced.

I didn't necessarily say here's
all the great stuff and what's

in the future, but I say here's
all the good stuff, here's all

the bad stuff.

They're both happening, even
with the bad stuff.

Here's why I still believe it's
going to still work out.

But I try to give a balanced
view because I think often you

know people gloss over that
because there's concerns and so

many different directions for
environmental scams, whatever.

But if you parse through it,
there is still an incredible

sort of opportunity underneath
all that.

But it is there and it does
happen and it's something that

serious.

So it's problems that we need
to solve as a community.

But I try to do a balanced view
and so you know I have only

because I'm the only guy that
most people know of that

actually went deep in NFTs.

So they just oh just talk to
Chakai, yeah.

Speaker 1: That's why I ask,
because I figured that with your

experience and your background,
with how deep you are in this,

you're one of the unicorns that
has a wealth of previous

experience of talking, rubbing
shoulders some of these people

and getting in these circles,
but also being so deep into this

at the core level.

That's exactly why I asked.

Because I think you get pulled
in all different directions.

Speaker 2: It is.

I mean I don't go out there and
preach it as much.

I mean I'm not there to
convince anybody, but I'm

definitely here to answer any
questions, especially if those

are curious, and it has been an
interesting sort of just

crossover.

I don't think as tech oriented
as Silicon Valley is, I just

don't think that they have
really grasped or understood

NFTs and definitely Web 3.

There are some who are
distinctly like.

They do not like it.

They think it's the worst thing
ever.

And so you have a very strong
view on both sides, which I

think is a good sign, because
anything controversial, anything

revolutionary, tends to be
controversial in the beginning.

So it's not necessarily a bad
thing.

It's just the nature of that
new ideas coming to life.

So you have to be careful,
because there's a lot of strong

opinions that I mean very, very
strong opinions in both

directions.

But it is something where
people are curious enough, and

when they are curious they tend
to point to me because I

honestly am one of the very few
people that have gone deep into

it.

Speaker 1: So, right, I mean so
and I'm going to push you on the

spot a little bit here is, out
of all the people that you've

chatted with, what's like the
biggest?

If you had to like say, like
one or two problems were like

the biggest reason for them to
not get involved Like, what's

the biggest problem that the
people that you talk with see?

Like what is it that they're
like?

Speaker 2: yeah, I would join,
but yeah, what's the question

about that, I mean?

I think that so I'll put this
more of a sort of a broader

philosophical term and this is
sort of how I view Web 3 a

little bit.

So I mean, the one thing that
happened early on is like people

asked me, like you know about
Web 3 strategy, like how do I,

you know, sort of think about
this and what your opinions

about it?

And the first question I had
when I was first asked about

that is what is Web 3?

Like how do you define it?

And I think that there's so
many definitions out there and

if you search the way what it is
, you won't find an answer

because everybody has different
opinions.

So I said to myself, like how
do I define it?

Like what do I think about 3 is
?

And so the way I defined it was
, you know, blockchain was a

technology shift.

It was a technology sort of
evolution in terms of you know

this public, immutable sort of
decentralized database.

But Web 3 for me was a cultural
shift.

It was a shift in values that
said that they value people

value digital property as much
as they value physical property,

and before, like any digital
was worth nothing.

It really value it.

There's no way just to have
ownership of it, but with

entities watching.

Now there is, but digital
ownership has value, and so that

is a big shift, and so that is
a fundamental thing.

That often is what stops people
from coming in is they ask the

question like why is a JPEG
worth anything?

It's just like it's, it's, it's
worth there's.

They don't see, they don't
value digital property because

they don't understand what it is
and don't think that of digital

things being able to be
property.

And so that is often the thing
that is that stalls people,

because until you buy that
premise, that digital property

is as valuable.

So your JPEG is worth as much
to you as your car or whatever

physical item, your physical
ping on your wall or even your

TV or whatever.

There's physical items that
know say, oh, does this TV have

value?

Of course it does, I mean, it
makes sense to them.

But it.

Does this JPEG or this movie
value or there's, you know,

whatever it is, have value?

Like, ah, they don't, it's not
there.

And so I think that's often, if
they don't get that, that core

premise, then everything else
doesn't make sense.

So you have to.

That's the core thing where I
think that is hard for most.

Once you get past that, then
there are other stuff that maybe

they come up in terms of, like
you know, crypto being scams and

the environmental concerns and
all this kind of stuff that they

read in the news, and so I
think a lot of it's fed by the

media giving a narrative, and I
think that for me, that is about

going back and saying what do I
believe and what do I see and

does it make sense and why is it
people say it's scams?

Why is it that people say it's
environmentally and sort of you

know not a good, and digging to
why and that it does take a bit

more deeper thinking, because it
is complex, it's not simple and

it's also changing, it's also
evolving in a such a rapid rate.

Speaker 1: I like that.

Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot
of sense.

I think that's why it makes
sense to someone like me,

because I, you know, I grew up
playing video games and the idea

of, like you know, I bought
skins in Warzone and bought

skins and, you know, halo and
Gears of War and all these other

things, and so that to me makes
sense.

You know, I said this is the
boat that was actually.

You know, after the Beeple sale
, that was like the most obvious

, like that was like the light,
like the Beeple sale got me like

curious, but like that, when I
had that thought, that was like

the shift for me as like, oh man
, I get to own my Valorant skins

, like that's dope.

You know, the, I've seen like
$500, $600 in these skins and I

don't actually own them.

You know, like why I remember
asking myself why don't I, why,

why don't I actually own them,
and that that actually makes a

lot of sense.

I mean, I still think we have a
have a long way to go, but

that's to, to, to, to.

I guess you know, run a
parallel to your point or, you

know, layer on top of that is
that I mean, that's what I.

That's the argument that I try
or not.

The argument that's, that's the
premise.

I try to give an example of
something digital that they

think is valuable and, like I
try to, I try to shape the

conversation and ask questions
versus just telling them.

You know, because when you tell
someone something, they're

naturally going to have defenses
up and walls up and like you

know.

But I like that, I like that
point, so it tells me who's.

Even in the Silicon, silicon
Valley world.

We still have a long way to go,
are we?

Yeah?

Speaker 2: no, it's.

It is weird to say that, but it
is because I don't.

I think it is.

There are lots of things we
have to build to make this a

great place for the masses to
come in, and I think that's the

point that I think is really
important.

I think that's the point that I
think is really important.

I think that's the point that I
think is really important to

understand from a peer security
standpoint and safety standpoint

and even just the value
standpoint.

Understanding that value.

I think that you know, I think
there are ways to understand

value of a JPEG, like you know
the one I hear often which I

think is a good one, but it's
photo of your kids on your phone

and that all got wiped and was
gone forever.

Would you care?

And I think you would care,
because those are photos of your

kids and maybe it's the only
copy you ever had.

So I think that there is value
that can be held in something

which is in a digital sort of
quote, unquote, virtual form.

But the half to me from that
was a value.

To make that leap to digital
properties, like, can you

consider this property?

Because property has the sort
of element of ownership and so

with property, you can own it,
which also means that it can't

be necessarily taken away from
you.

Like if you bought like a
Millennium Falcon toy, like the

from from Hasbro, whatever it is
, and you have at home, it would

say Star Wars went bankrupt and
it just completely died and

went away.

The fact that you own that
Millennium Falcon doesn't change

.

You still own it and physically
at your house you own that.

You could probably sell it on
eBay if you wanted to.

It's yours, it does not depend
on the existence of the company.

Whereas, like Fortnite, if you
bought something in Fortnite, if

Fortnite went away and shut
down all the servers, you would

have lost all that property.

It's not, it was never really
yours.

But in the case of NFTs, if,
like, foundation went bankrupt

or went away or super went away,
you would still own the NFT.

And there was a real example.

That with Tesla is when the guy
who went to take a design one

day I don't want to do this
anymore and shut down the site.

In that scenario everybody
still owned their NFTs.

The NFTs still existed and
never went away.

Object picked it up and kept on
going.

So there is a real life example
in the space where that

happened and you still owned it,
and so that element of property

ownership not being dependent
on someone else and it can't be

just taken away because some
company went bankrupt I think is

key, and so you have to make
that leap to believe digital

property component, not just
digital value.

So I think there's two
components that are different,

but both important they are.

Speaker 1: And you know what's
funny is, as much as I collected

on Tezos, I didn't even put
that two and two together like

that.

I said, you know, hick, and I
got shut down.

But then I object, picked it
right back up.

I didn't even like I guess I
got more involved in the story

of the drama of that shut down.

I'm like hold on you just like.

That's actually a really
valuable use case, is a bullish

use case of it.

Right, there is that you know
those NFTs were still intact and

I could still put those in the
gallery, could still view them,

I could still do all the stuff
even though the site, the

centralized site, if you will,
went down.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you could, you
still owned it, you still own it

.

And if you bought on Hick at
home and it and you and it's

until the chain itself dies,
which is not a zero probability,

but it's a some probability of
it.

I think that that's where the
question becomes like which?

Where do you want your clinical
property to exist?

Which chain you want?

The chains that are most likely
not to die and disappear will

be, because there are many
chains from like a few years ago

were extremely popular, but
they no longer exist.

So it is possible for a chain
to completely shut down, as we

saw with Tara and you know, and
all that kind of stuff.

So it is possible.

So that is something that you
know, that we have to sort of

figure out in the years to come.

But I think, for these chains,
especially like Ethereum, I

don't think Ethereum is going
away.

I mean, cold crypto has to die
overall, george to go away, but

it seems unlikely it will
completely disappear out of

existence.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Yeah, I mean, you actually gave
me some of another talk track

because you know that that's
also like where it's, it's where

they're stored and that is what
likelihood is this?

You know what likelihood is
this chain going to stay versus

go away?

Where do you want your, where
do you want your assets to show?

And I think the, the, if you
want, the deeper part for the

people in the crypto world is
that, like, what are the, what

are the trade offs for each
chain?

You know there's all these
different types of conversations

of like.

You know what about?

Like with Solana, you trade off
a little bit of centralization

for you know, like, there's all
these different trade offs that

you have on these chains.

But I think, and I'll want to
switch gears after this but the

one thing that came up with my
mother when I was chatting with

her is the idea of being the
custody of your own bank.

Like that, that and like, once
you get over the digital

property like you know, valuing
digital items as property, which

have ownership then it's like
okay, now you're your own bank,

which comes with all of the risk
that banks take on for you.

You know, because there's still
value in a bank.

You know not that banks are
completely useless.

They are taking on all of the
security risk of keeping your

assets safe.

This now, while the benefits of
like you know this space or

you're your own bank, you're
also your own bank there's also

some negative side effects, like
what, if you use your you know

seed phrase and what like
getting getting.

I think that to me, at least
with my generation, has been the

biggest gap because people
don't want to think about that,

people don't like the idea of
thinking about that and that's

to me in my, at least in my
circle, the hardest hurdle to

cross.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that
that is true.

It does come responsibility and
it's the component of like what

you have digital property how
do you, how do you identify who

owns it and where it's stored
and that's to your wallet.

But I do think that as things
evolve, there'll there'll be

more custodial wallets.

That'll happen.

So you don't necessarily manage
your keys and like I remember

someone talking about like they
just set up their mom to have a

wallet and all set up and you
know she had written down her

seed phrase to make sure she had
it and there was a stack of

papers that she accidentally all
shredded.

So that does happen.

So I do think that there'll be
a certain set probably the

majority of people on the
population who will want their,

their keys, to be in custody of
someone else.

That don't lose it, but some.

But you have a choice you can
have it self custody or not, and

it's that that you take
responsibility If you do that.

I think that people need to be
aware and educating, which is an

education component.

But I do think there'll be
options in the future for both

and there'll be a blend.

There'll be a spectrum of how
people want to do it, given how

comfortable they feel with it,
and you know that will.

That will be something that
will evolve over time and I do

think it's a key component, but
it's also that's one of the

security components comes in.

We have to make this a better,
safer experience for people.

Otherwise there'll be just, you
know, just prime for the

picking or right for the picking
for just all these people who

are trying to scam and steal
people's money.

And it just happens to the best
of us.

I mean I bought stuff that's
fake.

I know people have been hacked.

I mean luckily I haven't knock
on wood, but, like you know, it

does happen to the view in the
best of us.

Speaker 1: So yeah, it happened
to me.

I mean, in the very beginning I
gave up like I, you know I got

socially engineered and like
willingly gave up my seed phrase

to a malicious website.

You know I was.

I was trying to get support
because my ledger wasn't

connecting to collab land the
right way.

I was some naiveness around
Telegram and I just didn't know

how Telegram worked, and so I
put in a support ticket and they

said we won't DM you first.

So I put in a request and
someone DMed me.

So I said, oh cool, that's
support, you know.

so, like I just not there was no
there was no thought, you know,

and so they played it the right
way.

They played it smart, you know,
and that's that's.

That's the thing I think.

I'll never stop sharing that
because it's that was one of the

biggest L's that I ever took.

It was right after I flipped to
World of Women's, you know, and

made like a decent amount of
Eve, and you know it's about 60%

of that got drained, you know.

So I'll never stop sharing that
because it's like it was how I

cut my teeth and is where I is,
where I kind of like started to

slow down and like build a
little bit more, you know, build

a little bit more awareness
around what I was doing and what

these people were asking, and
like ask questions, don't rush

into it.

You know what am I signing?

But you know, you typically,
hopefully, hopefully only have

to learn that lesson once,
because that really hurt, it was

violating, it was demoralizing,
it was like embarrassing.

So it's one of those things
where I tell people it's like

you're going to have to cut your
teeth one way or another,

whether it's buying a fake NFT
or doing that.

Speaker 2: There's all these
learning experiences that help

you learn how to continue
forward, I think it's also being

an early pioneer into the space
, like that's going to happen, I

think when the masses come in,
I hope it'll be much safer and

there are much more guardrails
that help people, so that before

you do it, there's some checks
that happen.

But that needs to be built,
that needs to be figured out, I

think.

I do think it will be.

I think right now we're even
trying to figure out the value

of what it is, and so there's a
lot of evolution of what is NFT,

what is the value in Web 3.

So as that gets a bit more
solidified, I think hopefully in

parallel the guardrails will
start to be building up.

It's going to be interesting.

It is part of the nature.

That's why I think it's tougher
for people to jump into it,

because it's so easy to get
scanned, because you are your

own bank and so if you get that
C-phrase you're screwed.

There is no recourse, and so
it's unfortunate, just like the

people who store their C-phrase
in a hard drive and throw away

the computer and now they've
lost like 10s or even 100

billion dollars in Bitcoin
because they just didn't see

their keys.

Speaker 1: Right, yeah, that's
what I'll like before we wrap

things up.

That's the conversation I tell
people is that, look, if you're

not being early is like a blend
of curiosity and a little bit of

a risk.

How high is your risk tolerance
?

You got to have somewhat of an
appetite for risk in order to be

an early mover in something and
understand that things are

clunky, things might break,
things can happen that shouldn't

happen in a well-polished
product.

That's typically where I have
to end.

If you're not that person, then
you don't need to be early and

there's no reason why you should
feel left out.

If you're not an early mover,
then something you're not an

early mover, that's totally fine
.

Speaker 2: Also, I think in this
space it is something where I

think Web 2, you could play
around with sites and whatever

and not have to put any money in
and learn about it.

But I think on Web 3, you have
to spend money to learn and play

and be willing to lose all of
it, either because you bought an

NFT that's going to eventually
worth nothing, or maybe you got

scammed or you signed the wrong
thing or whatever about a fake

NFT, or you're just playing
around with it and you just

don't even know, or this chain
dies or just end up using the

wrong chain.

I think you have to pay a
little bit, spend a little money

to learn, and there's no way
around that because it's

inherently currencies.

You have to buy a little bit of
ETH or Soul or Tezos or

whatever it is to start playing
around with it.

So you have to.

That's part of and it's almost
like it's like tax, but it's

like the cost of paying to learn
.

You're paying your tuition to
learn a little bit and I hope

it's not too much, but you do
have to put a little bit in.

Speaker 1: It's kind of like a
rite of passage.

I spent about three or four
months before I even made my

first purchase and I remember
after I read all the white

papers and my brain was just
absolutely fried.

I was trying to learn as much
as I could without making a

transaction, because it's a big
jump.

Even still, when I deposit,
when I convert USD to Ethereum,

it's actually painful.

When I don't like the action of
doing that, I'd rather make

money natively in.

Ethereum.

I don't like it, man, but I
researched to the point where my

eyes were bleeding and I just
said, okay, I've read all I can

read.

There's not anything more.

I can actually learn to get to
the next level before Then you

make the journey of being a
right click saver to a left

click owner.

That's the next step in doing
so.

Speaker 2: I've never heard that
phrase right click saver to a

left click owner.

I've never heard that.

That's awesome.

I love it.

Speaker 1: That's right.

You got to convert people to be
able to, because there is a At

least in my experience when you
sign that transaction to

actually own, there is a
different feeling of buying

something and signing a
transaction versus just right

click and saving on your
computer.

It's a whole different feeling.

Oh, I agree.

Speaker 2: I totally agree.

It not only comes from the
actual purchase, but what

happens afterwards, when the
artist finds out that their

piece sold, they are just so
happy and tweeting about it and

they try to find you to say
thank you.

Then the community, with the
announcement, comes around to

support that person and they
welcome you in.

They want to hang out with you.

I think the social part I think
I've said this long, long ago,

but it's weird how a
cryptocurrency like Ethereum and

there's something that's very
cold and almost very

transactional through buying
something, a transaction very

transactional, has formed this
incredible social network which

is incredibly warm and welcoming
that transaction of saying I

believe you, the artist, have
created something of worth and

here is real money I mean
effectively real money to buy

that piece of art.

There's something about that act
which makes it's no other way

to say no more of a concrete way
to say your art has value,

especially in a situation early
on, when it's all more crypto,

3d art, where people are saying
he never, ever sold a piece of

his art.

I mean he sold, like he did,
sort of contract work or design

work or whatever.

He never sold any digital art
until NFTs.

It's the first time anybody
even wanted to buy his art.

It is kind of this crazy idea.

He went from something that
people thought was worthless

digital art to something that's
worth millions.

It's just an insane transition.

That was just Other aspects
that people see.

That was interesting was that
it took something that was

basically worth nothing just
months, or maybe six months,

before it had turned into
something worth millions, which

is just insane.

Speaker 1: It really is, man.

I remember it wasn't the Beeple
sale itself that got me curious

.

I'm not sure if you follow
Sriram from A16Z.

He runs the Good Time show on
Clubhouse or he ran it, it was

on.

Clubhouse for a while he
actually hosted Metacovin and

Tubidor and he had Blau and he
had all these other people.

I had no idea who the rest of
these people were.

Now that I look back I'm like
holy shit, these were a bunch of

somebodies.

I remember joining the stream
because I was super curious.

I'm like, okay, this is the
perfect room.

I listened to that room too.

I definitely listened to that
room.

You know exactly what I'm
talking about.

When Metacovin was talking
about the whole idea of this

digital world and
self-sovereignty and owning of

assets and building all these
things for artists, and I just

remember not being able to
comprehend it.

But I remember the way I felt.

I can't speak, like what I
actually am feeling, but all I

know is that this is right.

That's all I knew is that this
feels like the moment when Steve

Jobs pulled the iPhone out of
his pocket and it changed the

world.

It was the same feeling.

I remember that feeling vividly
.

I remember that whole keynote.

I remember I almost had it
memorized at one point.

Speaker 2: I think the
difference between now and then

was that?

Speaker 1: then I was still
young and didn't really know

what that feeling meant or the
skills to actually take

advantage of that.

I just knew it was going to be
revolutionary, and it was it

turned out to be.

This time, 15 years later, I
have a skill set and I have

curiosity and I have a little
bit of understanding of the

world to try to make my way in
it.

I think that was almost like a,
because I felt like I really

missed out on Web 2.

I felt like I was like surely
this can't be it for opportunity

.

I said, surely, if this is the
best we can do, man, this is not

great.

I think that was the sudden
realization of wow, I get to

start over and I get to
participate.

I get there's a blank, like
what you said this is a green

field, this is a green field and
a blank canvas and I can do

whatever the hell I want to do
here.

There's not many other people
doing it, so everyone knows

everybody and I'm going to
building relationships.

That was like my, it was all,
but I couldn't define them.

In that moment I talked to my
friend who I thought might have

a clue of anything I was saying
and that was like the start of

something great.

You know that space, I don't
need to describe it, I've talked

about it a million times but it
never gets old.

When he was talking about the
sale of that fedora, alien pipe,

punk, all of the that's, I
think what resonated to me the

most about an image or a
character, having real stories

attached to it and having a
backstory and having this

meaning and having all.

I don't know.

If you remember that was like a
30 minute monologue of this

punk and like why he sold it for
$4 million.

I couldn't remember.

It was just the most insane
story and I just said, wow,

people have their identities
attached to these things.

That is really cool.

Speaker 2: I mean, I need to
listen to that again.

I think that you got it more
than I did at the time.

I was like, well, at first I
was like there's something more

going on here than I actually
originally thought In terms of

what?

Just the people selling
everything else, where there's

something a bit bigger.

Then I started looking into it
and eventually I got it.

I think you got it much quicker
than I did, so I need to go

back and listen.

Do you think that was saved?

Is that that?

Speaker 1: I was literally going
to say I bootleg recorded it.

I'll send it to you after this.

Speaker 2: Okay, all right, I
have it saved in my Dropbox.

Speaker 1: So in case I need to
like redpill someone real quick,

I can just like drop it in
there, I can drop it over to

them.

Speaker 2: Okay, cool, listen to
this man.

I do remember that.

I mean, I think I can't even
remember if I got in, because I

think I got in maybe and I heard
it.

But I remember like there's
sometimes like on Clubhouse,

where it would, you can't get
into the capacity as filter, you

can't listen.

So there's side rooms that open
up that you can listen through

or something.

So I can't remember how I got
it, but like it was definitely a

crowded room it was, and the
first.

Speaker 1: What was really
interesting is it wasn't Web 3

related at all, but what
actually gave Suram his platform

on Clubhouse.

He actually broke Clubhouse
because he was the one who had

Elon Musk on.

Yes, I remember that I wasn't
live in, that I was watching it

on YouTube.

Someone like Bootleg recording
it, broadcasting it to YouTube

live.

Speaker 2: That was how I got
into that, I mean he also like

had, like, mark Zuckerberg come
on one time, and so I definitely

remember that.

I mean, I was definitely in
those particular but think, as

there's this whole wave of
people who are in NFTs that were

on Clubhouse and all these
people talking about it, I

missed, I did not, I was not
there, for I only came in during

spaces.

So there's this whole group of
people, at least for NFTs

specifically, that came in
through that and then like, yeah

, it's just interesting that
there was that phase.

I totally did not catch it, for
whatever reason.

I was just, you know, in it on
Twitter and that's where I

started my NFTs or a community
journey, but there are many who

started it on on Clubhouse and I
was on the tail end of

Clubhouse, like I was on the
very tail end of that.

Speaker 1: So I wasn't you know,
I think, really where it

started from, from the people
that I started gravitating

towards.

On that.

It kind of started around like
November October is really when

that that this community kind of
started to form on Clubhouse.

But I so I came in like you
know, mid to, like late March,

and then spaces came out, I
think you know, around May or

June.

So it was like, I guess maybe
not the tail end, I guess it was

like right in the middle, you
know where, where I came in, but

it was, that's like, you know,
that's where I met Faroq, that's

where I, like you know, met you
know, blake, one of the other

person I had.

That's that's how I like knew
of these people, because now,

you know, and and Faroq was like
hosting all these rooms and

Gary V was involved in some of
them, and I'm like, holy shit,

man, this is nuts.

And I'm like who is this Faroq
guy?

And like you know, like, why,
like?

Why, like, because I'm always
super skeptical of people, like

of influences from the web, two
days, but like, the more I saw

what he was building, I said,
holy shit, man, this dude's like

putting people up, he's asking
a lot of questions, he's a great

host, people want to come on
he's, he's, he's, you know,

giving a lot of alpha out.

I'm just said, wow, you know.

So the transition from from
clubhouse to spaces was rough,

to say the least, because
clubhouse at that time, they had

had enough feedback to like,
mature their platform to where

the audio was just great, you
know.

And you come to Twitter spaces
and they still haven't figured

it out yet.

Yeah, I never.

Speaker 2: I was too afraid to
go on stage on clubhouse, like I

never went on stage and like
even spaces, like I'm not going

on stage, I'm never going to do
a space and I'm I'm not going to

do it.

Then my friend Omar got me on
and so I went on and then now

I'm like hosting spaces and I'm
wearing my own spaces, which I

never thought I would do, but
it's been like this.

I never thought it would be as
a great way to reach out and

connect with people as it has
become, because there's

something about talk like this,
us talking together, like

there's something really special
about us talking together.

That I think has been.

It's just a nice intimate, sort
of real way to connect that's

not like in person, in person,
and so I think it's been great

for a lot of people to be
introduced to meet and sort of

talk, and so I've grown to
really enjoy it and it's

definitely part of my weeklies
or routine is to do spaces.

Speaker 1: I mean, that's I not?

That's actually how I found out
about photography in the first

place, because these was hosting
those 12 to 14 hour spaces

daily.

Speaker 2: I am not like the
holy mackerel, I capped out at

three or four hours.

I can't.

I can't do more than that, and
that's other stuff I need to do,

so like that's insane that
those spaces run us along.

Speaker 1: So it was it was nuts
, and I mean now he wasn't super

active, like like he would a
lot of times like bring up

different co hosts and like let
them run the show, and you know,

but he would, but he would
still keep the room up.

I mean, just, it was that was.

That's how I met Joey the
photographer.

It's how I met all you know I
time at Casemar, the time at Ben

Strout.

So I met, you know, like, eric
Rubens, the time that all these

people is because this dude,
just you know, held these

legendary spaces where he gave
people the platform to like

share their art.

And you know, oftentimes, you
know, like, whether he would buy

it or not, someone would buy it
, you know, like, right there in

the room, and I think one of
the reasons why he gets a lot of

the credit that he does is that
he, you know I'm not going to

say he was the single most like
he played a very important role.

You know, John Knoth was
arguably one of the largest and

Dave Krugman were arguably some
of the largest reasons why

photography is relevant in the
NFT space and encouraged Kath

like sell her work for what it's
worth, but but these for like

just making it, making it like
an end and giving some signal.

You know, as a collector, like
that, giving some signal and

like buying this, you know, on a
weekly basis, so played a very

important role.

And he won't admit it as much,
he won't ever admit it because

he's too humble, but like that
was, like, honestly, one of the

reasons why, you know, I found
the photography community the

way I did.

You know, I wouldn't have found
it outside of him, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's
interesting.

I found it in a very different
way.

Yeah, let's do it.

It's like I, I for a long time
I have photographers say please,

you know, come and collect
photography work.

I kind of like yeah, yeah, I
don't know much about

photography, I don't feel
comfortable with it, I had a lot

of questions about it and so I
just never wanted to go into it.

And they're like no, these
credible photographers like Neil

, Neil, Bernal and Vera, and
love Neil and so they were to

convince me and like, eventually
I, I finally bought one of

Neil's pieces, which was an
amazing piece, it's called

Labrith.

But then what really kicked it
off for me because I was

watching photography very
closely, I wasn't buying

anything, but I was watching it
very closely is like what.

While back, you know, twin
planes dropped, and then that

was a big thing, but it was
pretty quiet for a while, and

then Alejandro dropped
carpoolers which was amazing.

And then, right after that
happened, because it did so well

, people said, oh, collections,
photography, collections.

And then at that time then,
like you know, rizcon dropped

panoramic portraits and then,
you know, drift dropped, like is

where my vans go.

And then, like you know, just
Chris Heinz, chris Hayatha

dropped row homes and then, you
know, brandon North dropped like

painted poetry, and all of
these just like, just like, just

amazing photography collections
are dropping.

And that's when I said, Okay, I
can play this here.

And you know it was in and I
started.

That's when I started my
photography sort of journey and

kept into it and sort of became
a very dominant part of my

collecting sort of activity.

But I just saw that happening
and as it was happening I was

like what is going on?

And it was just blowing up in
front of my eyes and so I

created this site to track them,
all they, what collections are

out there.

So I built my own ranking system
for photography collections and

ran that for a long while to
sort of say here's all the top

questions, because the question
I got a lot like I was looking

at them so intensely.

People asked me like, hey, what
, how many should be any

collections?

So I had some ideas I just
every single one and so I built

this ranking thing to help me
figure out, okay, what are out

there, how many are in a
collection, how many selling for

, what types are they, and so
forth.

And just following the volume
and so forth.

And eventually I shut that down
because I did that for so long.

And eventually, I think, I put
a tweet I have no idea if it's

had any effect on OpenSea.

I said to them if I can build
this photography ranking site in

a day, you could, why can't you
do it?

And then within a week or two
weeks later, they set up the

photography category on OpenSea,
which I think was a big deal,

at least in the photography
community, to say it is its own

sort of category.

And then that the rankings
worked on OpenSea.

So eventually I shut mine down
because I couldn't keep up with

all the ones that are coming out
.

But it was just this.

I was just watching it happy.

I was just watching this
explosion happen in real time.

It's almost like a slow motion.

Oh my God, what is going on?

And you saw them one after
another, and then all of them

are just like selling out within
minutes, and then just the

floor is rising so quickly.

It was just insane, it was just
absolutely insane.

Speaker 1: I love that man and I
love that you mentioned the Roe

Homes.

That is one of the I haven't.

That is one of the single.

That's one of my most desired
collections, like the own, at

least one, of Like that is one
of my favorites.

Like when I saw them, like that
is so different, like that it's

powerful, it's bold, like the
colors just pop everywhere and

it's just something
aesthetically pleasing about.

You know, we're talking about
architecture a little earlier.

There's something about it
combines so many different

things into one image.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I learned how
to bid on those auctions with

that drop because I got zero
because I went into buy it and

it sold out within minutes.

But I just waited for my one
and then I would go to other

ones.

But thing is you had to do a
bunch at the same time.

So he was selling someone
before.

I just completely messed up and
was like I'm not going to make

the same mistake again.

But I got zero over.

I was there, I like all like 10
lined up, I want these out

through this order, but I did
not do it right and there's this

whole thing about bidding and
what happens.

Anyways, I messed up.

Also, I saw where my vans go
and I saw one for sale for like

1.8, eighth or something.

At a time I was like it's not
the one I want, so I just waited

until another one comes up, and
then it was too late.

I should have just bought that
one and just held on to it, but

I did Because I thought, oh,
it's not the one I wanted and it

was just kind of this weird
dynamic that happened at the

time.

Speaker 1: But it's also.

You're very similar to me, in
the same way that you buy what

you like.

You buy the ones that resonate
with you the most, but sometimes

that behavior can shoot you in
the foot where it's like bam,

but at the same time it's not
the one you wanted.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean it may have
been the right decision from

that perspective.

But also I think I started to
look at some of these pieces not

as individual pieces but as a
collection, because I think

Coenemar did a great job of that
Like by doing the sort of art

blocks, sort of a model, and
saying you get whatever you want

.

So I mean you have to believe
not just in one piece, you have

to believe in the entire
collection and the body of work

that the artists have done, or
just thematically what's going

on.

And that's somewhat true, like
Semer Wagner's recent one with

the parody of a tangled thread,
like you almost have to buy into

the whole concept of what that
is.

And so in the end it doesn't
really matter which one you get,

because they're all part of
this incredible collection and

so you're buying into the whole
idea.

There may be one or two you
really want, but for me, like

for that one, like as I
untangled it, like I found all

the ones I fell in love with
later on and that's the sign of

a great collection is that you
may think you like this one

because maybe it's more
aesthetically pleasing, whatever

it is, or just some element you
like about it.

But then, when you start
digging and uncovering the

layers, you find, oh, I love
this one just as much, if not

more.

That's what happened with
Summers.

That's why I created the
website dedicated to her thing.

So that's.

Speaker 1: you know, I tell you,
man, I learned, I always

learned something new every time
like I have someone on, because

I never, I never thought of it
like that, where it's like

because the collection is the
story, the collection is the

body.

It's like there's, there is a,
there is an overall theme that

the artist is trying to
communicate through the entire

collection.

It's not just one piece.

I guess I never really thought
of it like that, I just looked

at, like I just want the one
that I want.

Speaker 2: But that's true.

But there's two elements to
that.

One is is that a great
collection?

Each person will find a piece
that they connect to it.

It'll be different for each
person If it's all for the same

person, I think you know.

But like a well done collection
, you will find the piece that

resonates with you or you
connect with.

It'll be different for
everybody.

The second element is is that
for that whole collection?

You know you look at it as one
whole and you're lucky to have

any piece of that sort of the
collection because the whole

thing works together and when
you reach that level it's like

just great part period, and so
you just want to be a part of

that collection because it's
such an incredible collection.

And so you're less about the
one thing which is more PFP,

like you find the one PFP you
love, but it's like you find the

one piece that you love and
it's different for everybody.

But if the whole collection is
a whole, stands out, then you

don't care which one you get,
you just want one of them, and

that can be.

The more you get to that level,
the more just like that.

They have done something that's
truly magical, which I think is

true as summer Wagner's
collection with the parody of a

Tangle Thread.

Speaker 1: I love that and I
think you know it's really

interesting if I look back in my
buying patterns when it comes

to some of the photography, like
because Joey, joey the

photographer recently did a drop
on Nifty Gateway and there was

one, and I remember that you
know, obviously there's the one

of one.

Then there was an addition of
10.

That was like a you know the 10
highest bidders, and there was

like a, you know, an addition of
, I think I think 500 or

something like that, and I
remember buying the and the 500

was actually.

I ended up spending more on,
you know, just because the

market conditions were are not
that great.

And you know, I know Joey has
like struggled with being, as

you know, consistent in the
community and like going back

and forth.

So there was a lot of reasons
like why that, you know,

unfortunately didn't go the way
he had anticipated, but I'd

actually bought that, the, the,
the additions piece, thinking

like that was the only one I had
a shot on.

But I really, really wanted the,
the, the bidding of of the top

10, right, the middle one was
the one I really wanted.

I'm like you know what.

So I immediately bought, you
know, the first one, cause I'm

like you know what.

This is just a chance to own
Joey's piece at this price Like

this is even at $500, like that
was like Joey's work is insane

and that was incredibly like as
a good deal for for the amount

of work he puts into it.

But then I remember thinking
like I put like a $120 bid on

the you know I can't remember
what it was called, it's been so

long ago, but I remember
putting a bid on.

It's like you know what I have,
I can maybe spend like $100 or

$200 more, but I'm probably
going to get better.

I just wanted to do it for the
provenance, right.

I just wanted to like say I
tried to participate, but I

actually ended up winning.

Ended up winning one of those
pieces because it just wasn't a

lot like at 120 bucks.

I'm like this is criminally
undervalued, you know, and so I

literally felt like I stole it
from him, you know, cause he put

like a good, he put months and
months and months of sleepless

nights into that and so, but
it's really interesting, you

know, I tell that big long story
to almost I give your give what

you were talking about earlier.

So a little bit of juice is
that.

You know, even even if I didn't
get that middle piece, just to

own a piece of that collection,
that whole collection that he

was trying to tell the story of
met a great deal to me.

It was like three parts of my
life and the one of one I really

want to own, but it's just not
realistic right now.

But at least I get to own a
piece of that story that he's

trying to tell, cause me and him
were late.

On a very similar note, Like I'm
a recovered heroin addict, he's

dealing with his own battles
with that and you know, so like

we we connect on that really,
really intimate level and I get

to own a piece of that journey
of his, you know.

But just to give you, just to
kind of like I guess in a weird

way say my intuition always
knows better than than the mind

you know.

So the intuition usually knows
what it wants.

More in the mind typically
doesn't catch up till a couple

of months later or years down
the road.

However long that lesson takes,
yeah, and that's all the thing

about vibes Like.

Speaker 2: That is like
intuition.

It is something that is more
gut feel and that's what vibes

is all about.

I mean, I heard, like of course
D's talks about all the time,

like, oh, what is this vibes
thing?

Like you know, whatever it just
touched, you feel like, but the

more I'm in the space and we're
like, yeah, it's a lot.

There's a lot about vibes, that
that you have to have the right

vibe for it, and if it vibes,
then then there is.

There is a signal there that
you need to sort of pull through

and sort of figure out, and
sometimes that's all you go on,

and sometimes it is what leads
you or tells you where to to to

what path of travel.

So, yeah, it's, it's kind of
this intuition thing, which I

think you're totally right about
.

Speaker 1: Yeah and yeah, and
it's just you, typically the

mind doesn't understand the why
behind the decision till till

the end result, or at least near
the end result is is kind of

rearing its head Right, and it's
just.

It's a fascinating thing.

It's yeah, I know, I know, I
know the space gets a lot of

shit for that.

You know what's the vibe check
in the community, but but when

you, when you, when you sit down
to it, like this is the

cultural layer of crypto, in my
opinion, like that's like you

got to buy what you like and you
got to buy what resonates with

you the most, and it may not be
the piece that you like the most

, but it may resonate with you
in a way that you don't really

know of yet, or there's a reason
why you're, you're led to it,

whether it's a experience that
has happened or an experience

that's yet to happen, or
whatever the whatever the case

may be.

This introduces a lot of, like
you were saying, deep thought.

This is, I mean, it's the
challenge of the space is having

this deep level of thought, but
also trying to keep up with how

fast the shit moves.

I mean, it's, it's one of it's,
it's, it's the, it's the thing

that keeps me up.

It's what it's almost like why
I was really hoping, one of the

reasons why it won't be a
popular opinion, but it's like I

like I want the bear market to
last for a little bit, right.

Speaker 2: I just want to take a
breath.

Speaker 1: I want to like man.

I want a dollar cost average in
.

I want to relax, I want to
touch some grass, I want to

learn some more.

I want you know like that was
just an insane bull market that

we were just in.

Speaker 2: I mean.

Speaker 1: I.

I didn't know what way it was
up, I didn't know, I didn't know

how to like spend my time.

I didn't know, I didn't know
anything, I was just trying to

survive, you know.

Yeah, it was nuts I mean I?

Speaker 2: I mean I think it's a
good sort of like reset the

bear market.

I hope, I think in these
situations it's when the good

people will stay and the people
who are adjusting for the money

will leave, and I think that
sort of sort of flushing of the

system I think is a good thing
and hopefully it is a time to

take a breath and sort of just
really think through, like, why

are you here, why are you in it,
and so, and hopefully the

people who are here for the
right reasons stay and then we

just get stronger on the, on the
second, the next bull run.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's,
you know, even just talking to

my parents and talking to other
people who understand

traditional markets and they
it's like that's that's why bull

and bear markets exist is to
flesh out.

Flesh out the week, you know,
or people who are in it for the

short term, and the people it's
it's not necessarily the flesh

the week out, it's more of just
to show who's strong.

You really, depending on how
you look at it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and also, like
all these scams, everything are

also revealed in these bear
markets, because when things are

always going up, it's easy to
hide all the bad stuff's

happening, but when it goes down
, it's very hard to hide the bad

stuff that's going on, and so
that's why all these things are

being sort of unveiled and
things are sort of cratering and

so forth, because they actually
weren't built on anything

that's fundamentally sound, and
so I think that that will

hopefully just make the whole
system better.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, man,
exactly.

Well, I think we should wrap it
up here, man.

It's been an hour and a half.

Speaker 2: It's been great
talking to you.

I enjoy it.

It's been such a pleasure
talking to you.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, this has
been a, this has been a treat,

and so last day I want to give
you, you and your resources, a

little bit of a plug here.

Man, where can people find you?

Where can people find the
monolith gallery?

Where do you want?

Speaker 2: people to go.

First, you can find me at
atlifefc L-I-F-E-O-F, and

monolith gallery is just
monolithgallery, it's just as

the website, and there's also, I
guess, the monolith gallery

Twitter handle, which is at
monolith gallery.

So find me anywhere in those
places and yeah, thanks, I

really appreciate you having the
show.

It's been a great conversation
and I truly it's been fun.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, no, this
is exactly why I do it, and I

mean, yeah, that means the world
, and it's fun to connect with

all these different people with
different backgrounds and hear

the stories and find the common
ground, find the different

trains of thought.

There's so much to be learned
here.

I mean it's just that was all
ended with this man.

That was like the primary
motive, because I didn't have a

big bag to spend.

So I said my main goal here is
to learn.

I'm just trying to make money
along the way.

Sure, like that was like.

And I still try to check myself
.

That's the one thing I have to
go back and reevaluate every now

and again.

Is it like, okay, did those two
motives flip, or are they still

the same?

And why are they the same or
why are they different?

Speaker 2: I mean I think that
with your talent, with just your

history, with podcasting and
audio and stuff, I mean I think

this, having this voice and
having this regular show to talk

to people, I think is an
incredible service to the

community in terms of you know,
taking your talent to what you

do, and I think this is often
the way people can understand

stuff and hear stuff.

And by how you ask questions
and almost being sort of the

voice of the people of like what
do I not understand?

And asking those questions, I
think that helps them understand

because they probably have
similar questions and similar

things they're struggling with.

That you're able to sort of
highlight and ask different

people that you interview, and
so I think I think it's a great

service and a great value of the
community.

I think that I hope it succeeds
and does well and you know, I

think it's, I think it's very
cool.

Speaker 1: Thanks, man.

That means the world.

Thank you for joining us on
another episode of the Schiller

Vaulted podcast.

We hope you enjoyed the
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