Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Schiller

Curated Podcast.

For our season finale of the
Curated Podcast series, we have

none other than Guy Norcal, an
esteemed collector in the Web3

space, host of the Norcal Schill
Podcast and co-founder of

ClickCreate.

In this episode we chat through
his early days getting into

Bitcoin, the many nuances of
what gives art value, the hot

topic of scarcity in Web3, and
so much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now time to grab some coffee
and dive into this combo with

Guy Alright.

Gm.

Sir, guy Norcal, how are you,
man?

I'm good.

How are you, dude?

Gm, gm.

What a GM.

I feel like this week went
really quick.

Even there's no shortage of
shenanigans, so I feel like it

made this week go insanely fast.

Man, How's your week been?

Speaker 2: Dude, it flew by as
well.

I can't believe it's Friday
already.

I don't know why it flew by so
fast.

I'm like it just flew by.

I don't know.

Speaker 1: I mean last week, but
the last week felt insanely

slow.

I feel like life kind of does
this slingshot where it's like

some weeks feel really slow and
you're just wanting to get back,

and then the next week you're
just fucking catapulting, you

know.

Speaker 2: Right, right, yeah, I
know I don't know, like cause I

guess I guess you know cause
there's a new month for Click

Create, so we have all the stuff
we have to get done for the

week and then, yeah, I guess
that's the only reason I can

think up, yeah, and I had to
edit a pod.

I usually send out my pods to
like to get like put together

and notes and everything, but
I've been trying not to do that

and trying new stuff with from
suggestions from yourself.

Thank you, dude.

And so I was also doing that
and it worked out alright.

Good enough, yeah.

Speaker 1: Again, going back to
our conversation offline,

there's some things that just
need to be good enough, like

there's this.

It's a constant tug of war of
quality and acceptance, and I

mean just to segue that into, I
mean talk about current events,

like you know, something that is
, I think, obviously outside of

the extreme emotional reactions
on both sides.

But we're seeing this narrative
of, like it's not always beauty

that makes art more permanent
and lasting and gives it value,

you know.

So it's like this.

Sometimes it's more about the
story, sometimes it's more about

the moments and times, it's
about the people who are

participating, and it sometimes
is about the scarcity.

Sometimes, you know, it's about
, like I mean, with the lost

robbies.

That's exactly what I'm nailing
on right here, right, it's like

right.

Right, people aren't buying it
because it's it's beauty.

It's like naturally beautiful,
it's beautiful in its own

chaotic, like kind of weird way.

But you know, we're starting to
see a healthy dialogue around

that, I think, now that the
noise has calmed down, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah,
it's a definitely a historic

piece.

Yeah, it's not for everybody,
but you know those that want

something that's historic and
has an interesting story.

It's something to aspire to
collect.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean because
I've often found that like I

look back at I'm like, okay,
what makes you know like there's

like if I put on the hat of the
consumer, you know and like

something, some things that
happened in history.

It's fun that like we're a part
of it's, like I played a part

in that, or as a really crazy
chaotic series of events.

I mean, just look at, like I'm
going to throw out a PFP project

like Campy Pandas, you know
like they were called Yakuza

Pandas but for trying to grow a
brand.

Yakuza obviously isn't like a
brand name that a lot of people

want to associate with, but that
started off essentially as a

rug.

You know only a thousand minted
out.

Then the artist handed over the
keys to ice bags, then it

capitulated, then keyboard
monkey swept, then ice bags

started like renting out Raider
Stadiums like for all the

holders, and then it just like
turned into this thing and it's

like so.

So you may not think it has a
story about like it may not be

the best art, but like the story
the on chain story is kind of

cool.

You know, that is a cool story.

I didn't even know that story.

Shenanigans, what a time man.

Speaker 2: That was.

Speaker 1: I think that was even
.

That wasn't even in 2021.

That wasn't 2022.

So we were still it was like on
the downward trend of this man,

like, right, yeah, dude.

Well, man, I've been a long
time admirer of you, for ever

since I came into the space.

I'm so glad that, like, we're
finally getting to do this.

What you're doing with click
create, what you're doing with

podcasts, what you're doing, you
know, there's not many people I

can like really have a line
where I can relate to on certain

challenges and trials and
tribulations.

So it's great to, it's great to
have you on here, man, and

would love to kind of just like
for those, because I talk about

balance, I try to find this
podcast, I try to cater to web

three audiences, but also to
make it accessible and welcoming

for people who maybe, just like
, are kind of on the fringes or

on the edge or like wanting to
learn about the space.

So for the few newcomers, right
now there's not much thing,

there's not much happening with
three, but for the few newcomers

you know would love to kind of
have you give a brief intro to

yourself and like we can start
from there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of
funny.

I mean I didn't expect to be
where I am right now.

But you know, I'm just.

I've been in crypto for a
little bit.

I'm just a dollar cost average
investor in everything Crypto

mainly at this point and NFTs.

I started off with MBA top shots
, transitioned into like art

blocks and then got into one on
one art.

Just enjoying the conversations
with the artists really kept me

in the one on one stuff.

And you know, in that process
late I guess, like September of

21, it was I was like you know
it'd be fun to do a podcast

which is like one-on-one
interviews with artists in the

space.

So I've been doing that every
week and then this past year

decided to do a decentralized
like curation project with

Clutch, which is click create is
.

You know, we pick artists to
curate art for us from different

other artists.

It's a decentralized thing.

We aren't the ones that are in
charge of it as far as picking

the artists.

And I guess that there's one
other project that I have that's

a little bit slower, which is
the one exposure project which

uses a FujiRoid camera.

That's a digital slash FujiRoid
.

So the premise on that is to
take a picture, sign it, mail it

to and it gets mailed to the
winner of an auction.

The camera moves from place to
place around the world, and so

there's a digital version online
and then the physical one gets

mailed to someone, and that's
been a fun project and I've been

doing all of that while we had
a second kid and 21,.

My son and yeah, mainly stay at
home with my kids and get a

babysitter when I need to do
interviews.

Speaker 1: That's awesome, man.

I mean I mean, yeah, it's like
there's not.

You kind of have like the both
the on chain and off chain

support that I've seen is pretty
incredible and like it's.

There's so many projects I
think we saw come into the space

where it's like it was like
decentralized, where it was like

it was like they you say it's
decentralized but it's just a

Trojan horse for you know, just
a few back holders at the very

end, and I think that's really
cool.

Because it took me a while I
think great ideas sometimes take

a while to really click and to
really resonate.

You know, like, especially with
click create, and I don't think

I fully understood the picture
of like what you guys were

trying to get at.

But after, like the first time,
like the first drop that

happened, I started thinking
about our approach at Shiller

and like how we curate ourselves
and it's like there's actually

a really great balance of having
curation that's not of the team

, you know, or like, especially
when I was newer, or like having

a fresh voice, having a fresh
perspective, like I realized

that I brought something to the
table that maybe Shiller didn't

really already have.

When it comes to, like, my own
taste, there obviously are some

things that we align on taste
just across the board, but

everyone's kind of got their own
little individual thing and

it's really cool to you know,
because we've always said it,

artists are the best curators,
and it's like you guys are

literally doing that.

You know, it's like everyone
says it but no one does it.

You know, and I think part of
it's the challenge, at least

from what I've seen and what
I've noticed, is that, you know,

artists are charged with a lot
to do here.

There's so much work on the
artist's end, like they have to

create the art, they get to
share the art.

They've market it well, like at
the presentation.

There's how do you manage
collectors, like there's so many

, and on top of that, like I
think the most important part of

their job is like telling great
stories, which is really hard

to do, and so it's yet another
thing.

You know it's like right, but I
think that Yalla Foster's are

really cool way to like make
that happen, and it seems like

like people like really want to
do that and it's a really great

process and there's been a lot
of great feedback from it, you

know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I mean,
that was definitely you know.

And the other part of that
being it, having the artists do

it in a variety of artists do it
is like we each are in our own

bubble on Twitter, like you
don't see the same stuff all the

time.

You don't see new posts from
people like in this click, click

create.

I've there's like every month
there's like one to two artists

that was like oh yeah, I didn't.

I didn't know about them before
and I'm glad now I hear I've

heard about them.

And that's all because we have
artists curating each month and

figuring out you know who they
want to fit the theme or the

prompt of that month that they
chose.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's so.

I mean that's kind of how y'all
do it.

Is that?

Do you guys as click, create as
a whole kind of think of a few

prompts to like give to the
curators, or does the curator

come up with that themselves?

Like kind of, how does that,
how does that work?

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all based
on the curator.

So so, like this month, right
now we're in July and that's

Grant Yon's month and he went
with neighborhoods is his prompt

or theme for the month.

So all the artists are doing
like their version of a

neighborhood or what that word
means to them, whereas, like

last month was Dave Krugman and
that was cinematic stills,

beautiful.

And then the month before that
was Coldy and that was

transcendence.

So, yeah, it all.

And what's also nice is like
going through, you can see each

month being cohesive.

When you like view it on a
group setting, you can be like,

okay, they transitioned to
another month and another month.

It's not just random art every
week.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think
that's something I mean.

I think the Dave Krugman month
really stuck out to me.

I mean the way that y'all put
the and not only do you guys

curate that, but you guys
release, like artists interviews

and like you have them
professionally mastered and like

you know, I think Jordan does
some of your like, all of the

that work.

He's phenomenal at what he does.

Like that is, there's not many
people that are doing what you

all are doing for artists on
that type of level and I think

that is like you know, as
artists have a lot of jobs, so

do like, so do people who
collect, like collecting I think

it's a piece of the puzzle and
I think that people that just

collect I think it's not that
it's like there's that's a

tremendous value.

It's like you're contributing
to the longevity of an artist,

you know.

But I think the magical part
about web three is that if you

have the bandwidth and the time
to do more like, it's just the

more rewarding, it's more
fulfilling, like it's like we

can actually separate a little
bit from the way things were by

finding new and unique and like
innovative ways to like put

artists up that are already
doing all the work you know

right.

Speaker 2: So yeah, dude, and I
just like to add, it's Jordan

Ingle and David Fairs.

They're both doing the editing.

Okay, don't want to leave one
out, okay cool, I didn't know

that.

Speaker 1: No, that's awesome.

Thanks for that.

Yeah, no worries, no worries.

Yeah, man, so I'm going to like
your like unpacking, like your

collecting style a little bit.

You are have constantly evolved
.

You've like there's two memes
that I associate with Guy Norcal

, and that is biscuits, and also
the Genesis Sniper, right Like

oh, yeah, yeah.

So I would love to kind of like
unpack, like the sniping of

Genesis pieces.

Man, like, what is it about
collecting an artist, genesis,

that like gets you the most
fired up.

Like what and I say that with
context Like I like to.

There's different ways that
like I like to collect.

Particularly it's because
something has such a vast impact

on me and I don't have the bags
to really collect a whole lot.

So when it does, there's a
really beautiful exchange where

an artist and I connect on like
a very deep experiential level.

So I say that with a little bit
of context like what kind of

gets you fired up to do that?

Like, like, as you seem to like
, that seems to be like your

thing.

You know I guess it's a better
word is like every, every

collector has got their thing
that they like, and that's right

.

Speaker 2: Yeah it's.

I guess part of it is like I
mean, I do have to like the art.

I'm not just going to like buy
some some piece just because

it's a Genesis, but I will say
there's something to be able to

say like, yeah, I got their
first piece and they're super

successful, I know, and I got a
good track record of it, type

thing.

I mean there's something that's
kind of cool about doing that.

I guess you know and you're
taking a risk on an artist,

you're willing to be the first
one.

There's a lot to that.

I definitely can help the
artist out in the long run.

But I don't know, it's just kind
of fun.

It's easier to talk to the two
artists that are not known.

Oh, you know, they're not like
super busy usually and but these

days it's even hard for me to
talk to them.

So I don't know, it's just fun.

It's fun to do it, it's fun to
find these hidden gems because

you're I mean, you're getting a
lot of value for your money.

If you're looking at it as an
investment approach as well,

there's a lot to, there's a lot
of upside to that, like the

barbell investing type thing.

Speaker 1: I like that and I
think, because we often talk

about there's so many opinions
on like how people should

navigate the space, like
everyone's an expert on

something here on Twitter, you
know, and like, buy it because

you like it, buy it, don't
expect the number to go up.

But also like if you have too
much, if you're overexposed,

you're going to have to
liquidate some of your bags.

It's like there's all these
like conflicting things.

So I think it's really great
that you've kind of found a way,

personally, to marry the two of
like.

Okay, I have to like it.

Would I be okay if this goes up?

Or if it never goes up?

Probably fine.

But from what it sounds like is
that there's a few more pieces

before number go up that really
make you like that's really part

of your process of enjoyment.

You know what I mean.

Like it's like cool investing
in someone early and also

getting to talk to someone who
may have a little bit more

availability or may not know
their way in the space or may

not, you know, and you get to.

You get to say that like I was
the first and then and then if

the number goes up, I'm sure
like that's really rewarding as

well, you know.

Speaker 2: But Right, right,
yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a

good, that's a fun part of it,
yeah, it's great.

And sometimes you're like I
don't know why no one's buying

this.

You know it blows my mind and
everyone's ignoring this artist

right now.

But fine, fine with me, I'll
buy it, yeah.

Speaker 1: So I have to say my
one of those artists, for me

personally, is Sean Mundy.

I am just an absolute stan of
Sean and we'll collect, as you

know, just continuously do that.

But you know, I think that goes
back to again sometimes

popularity has a place, a big
role in collecting art and I

think, in a space that's so
memetically driven, like it's

really hard to be the free, like
I'm sure it's rewarding, but

even as a one of one collect,
like I'm growing into being a

one of one collector, like it's
really hard to do that.

It's like like my bags aren't
significant, so it's a huge risk

on my end, while I'm like,
right at the same time, paying

off debt.

You know what I mean.

So it's like I shouldn't
already be doing this and I am,

you know, and I probably should
be putting it to something else,

you know.

So, kudai.

Speaker 2: No, I feel you on
that.

I mean I also like I also have
like limits.

I'm like I don't usually buy
anything that's over five E Like

I have you know the boundaries
I set and I stay within those

boundaries for the most part,
that's awesome.

Speaker 1: I mean it's great to
hear things like that because I

think there's so many.

Like I said, as someone who
enjoys helping artists, you know

I always typically tend to
overextend when it comes to

trying to help people out
without like putting myself

first.

In some of these situations and
it's like kind of like I know

D's has been really loud on the
microphone around this is that,

you know, put your mask on first
, put your mask on first, and

like I don't think I really knew
what that meant until like

being able to watch you guys
navigate the space and people

that like have a little bit more
experience in doing so.

It's really admirable to see
Lin's like it's finally starting

to like click.

For me it's like, oh right,
that's how you do it, like this

makes so much more sense, you
know right.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true.

I mean, and D's, I think he
does, he did, like you know, he

does a good job at it.

Speaker 1: I mean, he's been
through some up and downs, you

know, through from seven 1617,
and he's got a lot of good

methods in place now, yeah, yeah
, I mean oftentimes like I think

what drew me into the space is
people like D's being willing to

share their losses and like how
not only they lost it, but how

they came back.

You know, and I think that's
something that's been very lost

in this space right now.

You know where it's like.

It's what drew me in, but it's
kind of not, it's kind of faded

away culturally, which I would.

I really hope we get back to
that where we're more

comfortable and there's a little
bit less of the noise makers

here you know that are that are
just causing so much trouble.

Yeah, so I want to segue that
into those like you were early

to crypto or you were.

You were into crypto well
before NFTs.

What like drew you?

And I know you're, I knew you
started off as a Bitcoin

maximalist, so I would love to
kind of like learn what.

What got you?

What got you down the Bitcoin
rabbit hole?

Man?

Speaker 2: So I mean
libertarianism.

I mean that's what got me in.

I was subscribed to Reason
Magazine back in the day and,

like they were talking about
this new currency you can mine

on your computer, type thing and
I was like, oh awesome, and I'd

like forgot about it.

So I didn't like it was like a
year or two, a year or two later

they were talking about it
again and I was like, oh, I

should look into this again.

And so I started looking at
different stuff online and

whatnot.

And it was right, it was before
Mt Gox crash and I like was

just doing some research and I
was like, it doesn't sound like

you should buy from Mt Gox, I'll
just start buying from Coinbase

.

So I did start buying from
Coinbase and, you know, started

preaching the gospel to
everybody and I was like, this

is this is hyper Bitcoinization
happening as the price is going

up and like went up to 1200 and
then Mt Gox happened and then it

came crashing down and I was
like, oh well, I still believe

in this stuff, I'm buying.

So so, yeah, I kept on buying.

I didn't buy a ton because my
wife was very anti me spending

money on this magic internet.

Money Like I would run out, I
would get the mail first and get

the bank statement and tuck it
in the folder so she wouldn't

see that there was another
Coinbase transaction there.

I was like, wait, you spent
$200 on something for sorry, I

got to, I have to is like this
is the future.

So that was my and then so
along those lines.

So I was buying pretty well not
like super regularly trying,

but buying here and there.

And then I found like crypto
Twitter back in the day.

But I had a conflict.

So my wife also started a
business.

We started a business from my
wife, so I was trying to do both

and I couldn't do both.

I was a terrible trader.

I remember like these different
dudes and I'd be on there and

they're like tweeting, oh, we're
getting into this right now.

And I was like, oh man, I got to
get on this and I'd be at the

office trying to log in to some
random exchange like Cripsy or

Mint Powell or whatever it was,
and I was just like trying to do

it and I was like I can't do
this, I can't do this, I'm

losing money and I need this
focus on the business.

So I just stopped trading and
just kind of just would

occasionally buy here and there.

That was it.

Unfortunately, I left some
money on Cripsy Cause I was like

, oh, it's an exchange, it's
going to stay around forever,

lost the money there, but yeah,
which you know.

In hindsight, the dollar value
wasn't that much, but very true,

but yeah, there's good times.

And then, you know, I missed the
ETH ICO because I wasn't paying

attention that much.

So, because of losing all that
doing the trading and not being

able to do it, that made me,
like you know, bitcoin maxi,

like I don't want to lose my
money anymore, I'm just going to

stay with what works, because
everything else is a shit coin.

Which it was, it was.

I mean, you don't see any of
those coins really anymore.

I don't know.

Does anyone do anything with
Litecoin anymore, like or yeah

see, I mean no one talks about
any of these coins anymore.

Kitty coin, doge coin is like
the only one there's like peer.

There's like peer coin.

I don't know that might have
been later like 16.

So I missed the ETH ICO.

But I did start buying on
Coinbase, relatively low and

just you know dollar cost
average.

So I do, I didn't sell anything
in 17.

So I just held it all up and
all back down and oh yeah, and

then I did buy a decent chunk at
the bottom of like 17 of stuff,

and then that was about it and
just dollar cost average is all

I do.

Speaker 1: I like that as
someone who it's real easy to

get like lured into, like
wanting to learn how to trade

and read the charts and, like
you know, and to make the same

thing get back.

But I learned I'm one of those
people that learns very fast.

You know, like I participated
in meme coin season a few months

ago and nice, and I think I
threw in like 200 or 300 bucks

Like.

I was like I'm like I have more
to throw in, but let's just,

let's just fuck around and find
out and see what happens.

I held it all the way up to 0.9
ETH and then all the way back

down to $2.30, you know.

So you know, I think I learned
my lesson there.

I learned that I'm not a trader
.

I ignored all the advice and
Alpha from Fungi and Bernardo,

who have done this before, and
they're like take out half, take

out half, and they kept doing
that.

And they're like take out half,
then like make another bag and

maybe roll it like, but always
take out half when it makes a

big jump.

It's like oh great, okay, right
, I didn't do that.

I definitely did not do that.

So I got a question, though.

So, being through a couple of
bot, like you've been through a

couple of cycles.

What part of the cycle are we
at right now with crypto and

NFTs.

Speaker 2: I mean I definitely
feel we're pretty bottomed at

this point.

I mean, yeah, we're not very
far off.

We got the happening coming up
in April and I think a couple of

months.

So I think about a year out
we'll start to see some gains.

I mean maybe sooner, but I
think it'll be about a year out,

yeah.

Speaker 1: Because I keep asking
myself I chat with a few

collect friends and artist
friends.

I'm just like what, what part
is this Like, you know, like

with all the standing, is, what
part of this cycle are we at?

Like, are we like just because,
just when you think like, when

you just think back about all
the shit that's happened this

year and last year, it's like
wow.

Like every time you're like
okay, surely this is it Right.

Like, surely I know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I know I
mean.

But I mean there's been a lot
of interesting news, you know,

like blackrock ETF type thing.

Who knows how long that
actually take.

I mean, maybe that lines up
perfectly after they're

happening and it just like super
cycle, even though this was

supposed to be a super cyclist
last year.

Come on, three AC.

I was waiting for it.

Speaker 1: Where is Suzu right
now?

Man, probably, yeah, we don't
know where he is.

What now?

Question I have?

I've and I this is more of like
a validation of my own

observations or intuition, but
something that I'm noticing

right now is, at least when I
came in to space, I came in

early 2021.

So it was kind of at the tail
end right before all the mania

hit, like I, I came in during
the people sale.

It was still relatively quiet,
bac was minting, v friends were

minting.

I still wasn't really
comfortable in understanding

crypto at that time, but one
thing that like I remember so

vividly, that like kept me
intrigued was that there was a

lot of people that were sharing
really insightful information on

the protocol level, on the
narrative level, like on the

conceptual level of like what
things could be, and I'm

starting to like notice a little
bit of that right now.

You know, like there's been it,
it, it.

It's all the shenanigans, if
you like.

If I tune that out and look at
what people are building, like,

there seems to be some really
cool developments on, like, the

ERC side.

There's some EIPs that have
become recent ERCs and it's like

around wallets, around NFTs
becoming wallets.

Is this kind of like I mean,
obviously you know, no one knows

and can predict the future at
all.

But is this kind of like
traditional?

Is this kind of like how
markets work?

It's like you it's at the
bottom there's all this fucking

capitulation and then it's like
okay, so new ideas.

Kind of surface.

Speaker 2: It's probably always
happening.

New stuff is always happening.

The builders are usually always
building, but they just get

drowned out in the noise.

I mean, cause there was, I mean
there's only in manifold, some

are manifold, you know went
public, offered public stuff.

It was.

I think that was a year ago,
yeah, yeah, I mean.

So there's stuff that's always
happening.

It's just it's always drowned
out by the hype.

But now you can, we can
actually see it and be like, oh,

that actually is cool.

You know, would we have missed
that?

If there was a bull run right
now?

We probably would have missed
it.

Or someone would have come out
with a cool art project with it

and we'd be like, oh shoot, I
didn't even know about that.

Speaker 1: So Okay yeah, okay
yeah, cause I'm just like I'm

trying to protect my, my, my
hopeium.

I'm like is this like, is this
true, or is this just me being

completely delusional?

And I'm just in so much pain
that this is sounds great.

You know, like just trying to
feel something here, man, yeah.

Speaker 2: No, I mean I think
things are always being worked

on.

Yeah, when there's less noise,
maybe things get pushed through

quicker.

You know there's more focus on
it, you know, I'm sure I mean I

don't know any right like
ethereum devs or anything, but

you know, maybe they're also
playing in the hype cycle and

then when it calms down, there's
just more production possible.

Speaker 1: Maybe I mean, but you
bring up a great point about,

like I think just the human
condition Um is, like you know,

there's there's so much like
because builders are probably

the most stable, consistent
people in any ecosystem.

Like they're just their
obsession, kind of like my

obsession with doing this.

They have that for building you
know different things and

tinkering and fucking around and
breaking things and building

new things.

Um, but oftentimes I find
people like that are just

incredibly quiet, like just
naturally.

It's like they don't want to
participate in more of the

social element of you know what,
what is being built.

They just want to like not do
any of that.

Like even even in some of the
web, two companies I worked at,

like the devs, had no cuss like
I would like I used to work at a

call center.

This is really funny and I
would get.

Uh, people are like well, can I
talk to um the production team?

And it's like no, like you
absolutely cannot talk to the

production team.

Like they are number one,
they're not going to make time

out of their way for just one
person and number two, they

don't want to talk to people.

Like it's like, it's just not.

I think it's just culturally
like you just can't get people

like that to like be
enthusiastic about sharing and

communicating.

You know what I mean.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, yeah, it's just something
that I learned from like well

in the past and I guess it, even
if it's just in a decentralized

manner, in an open environment
where we're not really a part of

one company, it's kind of just
people gathering around a shared

idea or common, a common group
of ideas, that's still the same

shit.

So I appreciate that kind of
like.

Like now it makes sense.

Now it's like maybe they've
always been communicating the

same thing and building the same
thing, but it gets overshadowed

by, I guess, people with more
pickaxes versus shovels.

Right, right, right, you know
what I mean.

Yeah, it's interesting, but
yeah, yeah, so thanks for like

validating that.

And you know, I'm just I'm
getting more comfortable in that

.

I've always found myself I'm
like dude, I'm just not going to

have any takes because, like I
don't know the fuck I'm talking

about and I still don't.

But I feel like in this part,
after being here for at least

two years, I'm like maybe I have
like a kind of an idea, or

maybe my observations aren't
always false.

You know what I mean For sure,
for sure.

So what do you?

So, when it comes to the space,
like right now, like what are

you kind of noticing that you're
like, like, is there any?

Is there are there any cool?

Like, are there any cool?

Like artists that you're kind of
being mindful of?

Are there any new concepts that
you're latching around?

Like?

I'm really into the post
photographic perspectives from

Fellowship Trust, like some of
the post photography stuff

that's happening.

I'm kind of finding that like
the new obsession where I'm like

I don't know why I like this,
but I really like this.

And in spite of all, in spite
of all the AI drama that happens

within artists and collectors
in the space, we love to kind of

know your if you're seeing, if
you're kind of like latching

onto that or you do you have
what's kind of been your focus

here outside of just survival?

You know, like I know that's a
big part of it, so I want to be

mindful of that.

Speaker 2: Right, right.

I mean I think it's really cool
that a whole AI stuff is really

interesting and cool.

I'm still figuring out
valuation for it for myself

versus a prompt engineer, versus
someone that's training again

themselves, type thing, and I
wish more.

My only issue is I feel there's
not enough with some of it.

There's not enough clarity with
from the artists like, hey, I

did this with AI and then I did
this or this to it.

Or you know, just tell me how
your process, because I don't

want to go in and be like, oh,
that's a cool 3D rendering.

And then I'm like, oh, you did
that all in AI.

I don't know it's, you know,
and I don't know if it's just

because it's something new,
something that we all feel we

can kind of do, if you just
spend some time to learn it.

That's probably part of it.

Yeah, because I know some
people feel that way about

photography.

You know, you just click on a
button, type thing.

But you know, I think it's just
going to have to grow and

develop.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I can see
that.

I mean it's in the beginning.

I think Claire was the only
person I could really assign

value to, because there's like
no one can do what she does.

You know, like she's using like
three to four to five different

models, then putting it in
Photoshop, then doing this, and

she's custom training all of her
own models too, and it's like

right, I don't know.

So I think in the beginning,
like level of effort compared to

what level of like I guess the
level of effort needs to be

sometimes in the beginning, more
prevalent, or like because the

accessibility is so, so great.

Now I think they're so low for
everyone to hop in.

I think the bar for like what
we should expect me like be much

higher.

Like I think the bar of like
what we value highly as like

things to collect should be much
higher, since the bar is so low

for everyone to now do it.

It's just like the
democratization of music as well

.

Like you look at what happened
with Spotify, it's like now that

everyone can do it, it's really
hard to find good music, but

when you find good music it's
really fucking good.

It's like right, oh, that's
true.

So that's kind of the way I'm
saying that at least right now.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree
with that.

I mean because, like get Von a
towel, I think believe transfer

own and Jenny passin in Um, you
know there are others, uh, ais

that stand out.

Speaker 1: Yeah totally so.

I'm going to steal a question
from you, uh, from your podcast.

Um, it's something I thought
about because I was listening to

the juicy Julia episode.

Uh, if you could be an animal,
what would it be and why?

Oh?

Speaker 2: yeah, it's like I
mean octopus Okay.

Speaker 1: I think you said that
maybe once, but I forgot about

it.

Why?

Speaker 2: Oh, I know I kind of
like them because they just like

they're smart, they're
interactive.

They can be like, uh,
interactive with others and have

, like, at least with humans
like this like little

relationship, but they can just
like blend in and just like

watch things and just chill and
I feel like I do that a lot,

it's just what blend into the
background for a little bit.

I'm just going to stay here to
watch for a little while and

then come out and do a little
something and then just blend in

.

Speaker 1: I like that.

I like that.

Um, I thought about it myself.

I think I'd be a golden
retriever for a really affluent

family.

Um, like, like, like a golden
retriever in a in a big mansion

with a white picket fence and a
lush green yard, like those

golden retrievers always look so
happy, Right, Like it's true.

Speaker 2: I mean you got the
best food.

You're getting like washed all
the time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got a
nice big fluffy bed, that's

right.

Endless bones.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no
shortage of any of anything,

great, so sure.

Anyway, yeah, I wanted, I wanted
to ask that, uh, because it's

always it's a question I enjoy
in your pie podcast.

Like I, I enjoy what you do
because, like it, it, the

consistency provides such a
unique like a great diving board

into like, uh, into like
discovering an artist's

portfolio.

It's like I can throw on one of
these and like go to the gym and

like be finished with it by the
time I get to the gym, or

listen to the first half to the
gym and on the way back from the

gym I can completely finish it.

I'm like that's really great,
you know, um, and so is that

kind of built out of kind of
just like you know, like, like

you know, just like consistency
and like just like a lack of

time to like do that Cause I've
always been curious about that

Cause like I obviously am more
comfortable in long form and

it's just it's a style like the.

The style that you do just
doesn't work for me, but it's

like it's something I've really
enjoyed, uh over the years, like

being able to just consistently
tune into.

So I would love to kind of know
like how that started or like

what the thought process is
behind that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was it
kind of kissed them from, like

how we interview some of our
employees for our office,

there's like certain questions
that like provide insight into

who this person is.

So I went with a lot of those
and then, or a few of those, and

then, um, like some crypto and
art related ones and I generally

, for you know, a half an hour
podcast ish.

On average or less, it's going
to be about 10 questions, 10 to

12 questions.

So that's what I went with.

Uh, because I, because I'm
staying at home, dad, it's not

like I could just like turn on
the podcast and listen to

something like a Joe Rogan
episode that's like three hours

long.

Um, I never listened to those
cause they're so long.

Yeah, so I'm like I want
something that's short, that I

can like definitely like get in,
like cause I don't like my

commutes are not long, longer
than 10 minutes where I live, so

you know you can finish it and
you know a back and forth from

somewhere or on a short walk or
something.

Um, that was like what made me
start is I just I wanted

something that was short and
easy to digest and would get me

knowledge about an artist
relatively quickly.

Speaker 1: Um yeah, and that's,
and I as a as a consumer, like

it's.

It's always funny how people
start creating things.

It's like it's it starts off of
a personal need.

You know what I mean.

Like it's, like it's like this
is what I need.

Maybe other people need it too.

Speaker 2: You know what I mean,
Right right For sure, cause I

mean I know that's the, that's
the thing.

I mean like there's a lot of
long form stuff out there and

I'm like I can't consume.

Like when it's over an hour I'm
like it's a stretch, because

also I mean cause for me I'm
listening over multiple periods

and then, like once you're like
into like fourth or fifth time,

you're trying to like listen to
it and you're like, oh shoot,

the app like reset.

So now I don't even know where
I was and you know.

But yeah, that's just personal
issues.

Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's.

I think that's what if I, if
I've learned anything from

artists, is that we all have a
lot of.

We all have a lot of personal
issues, and art seems to be the

way to deal with those personal
issues.

Um sure, you know, what I mean
Is to channel those personal

issues into something that
people might enjoy and make them

feel good.

Speaker 2: Right, right, right
yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean I, I tend to
agree there's, there's all.

On those long form ones, like,
I only really listen to them

when it's someone that I have a
keen interest in, like with

likes Friedman, Like the Mark
and Driesen one, I could not

stop playing that one Like, I
listened to it to the gym, in

the gym, on the way home from
the gym, you know, and I

finished it at home, right, and
it was like cause.

Like you know, mark and Driesen
was like, he was one of the

people I learned from when I
first came into web three and

it's like this dude like fucking
built the internet.

You know, like, like, or he
didn't build it, but he was a

really big contributor like to
to his success.

Um, so I don't know, like, I
think there's a, there's a knack

or there's a need for long form
conversations because you know,

you and me are on the bird app
and like the bird app is where

all context like goes to die.

You know what I mean Like, like
it's just people, you say

something and they respond to
something completely different

that you didn't say and you're
like it's not, it's not what

we're trying to say here, like.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: I was just saying
good morning guys.

Come on, dude.

Speaker 1: So, yeah, I think
that there it's like I think

everyone plays a role and
everyone plays.

You know, it's like whatever,
whatever works for you.

But, like, I just think that as
a as a whole you know, as

humans our attention span is so
short, so it's like, but they're

all, you know, for me in, for
me engaging in those I have to

give up a lot of other things,
like I've essentially given up

regular TV because I'd rather
it's just what what I find more

value in.

It's like I'd rather watch that
for three and a half hours

versus watching some fucking
bullshit.

That's not sports, you know, on
TV with a million commercials.

You know what I mean.

Um, so I do.

Yeah, I've kind of had to go
through a mental model shift

myself of, like, okay, if, if
this is really what I value,

then why am I paying for TV?

You know, like oh, yeah, yeah.

Right, yeah, like that's been
kind of one thing I've learned,

like been really focusing on.

The bear mark is like how can I
better myself?

And like what are things that?

What are some habits that like
I am not, like that are not

really healthy, that I'm kind of
growing out of that need to be

replaced by something better?

Like we'd love to know that
would.

You is like like in this time
where we have a little bit, I

know, click create probably has
you incredibly busy and being a

dad has you incredibly busy and
doing the pod, like there's you,

you, you have a very full plate
, but it's obviously our

attention is a little less
distract, like we have a little

bit more to focus in other areas
.

So we'd kind of love to know,
like what you're focusing on

right now outside of the space.

You know, like I would love to
like what, what, what are you

interested outside of here?

That like has you excited?

Um.

Speaker 2: Oh man, I mean, I
guess, because I don't.

I don't watch TV.

I'll like, I do like YouTube
here and there and what I watch

is usually like photography
stuff.

I'm learning photography types,
things on like oh, what does

they think about this camera?

Oh, interesting.

Or oh, that's a cool technique.

I didn't think about that.

Or how are they editing in in
Lightroom or Photoshop?

Um, I don't know.

There's a few guys that, uh, I
just and recently in the last

week or two, there's this street
photographer dude I'm blinking

on his name, but it's called
like walkie talkie and he does

like 30 minute, a 30 minute show
where he he's himself as a

street photographer but he's
doing a walking with another

street photographer here in
their story on the street.

He's walking with them as
they're shooting.

So that's been fun.

That's interesting.

I think the dude's name is
Ollie, for some reason.

Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that's
interesting, man, I like that.

It's, it's there's.

There's a lot of one thing that
, like, I think that are one of

the ample or double click on
that you touched on, is that you

know, it's so easy to like just
disregard opinions about

anything going on outside of the
space.

It's like in 2021, this was
like all that really mattered.

It was like we were
incentivized that's true, like I

was incentivized to literally
fade anything else outside of

the space.

You know, yeah, and I and I
initially thought like, oh, look

at these plebeians just in this
old, more old form, just doing

these things that aren't going
to get them anywhere, and it's

like dude, that was probably my
most ridiculous delusion of 2021

.

It's just 22 where it's like
there is still people building

really cool shit outside of web
three and this is not like the

alpha and the omega of human
existence.

You know what I mean.

Like right, that was the way I
looked at it.

So I'm enjoying like branching
out and like listening to a

little bit more like MKBHD
around, like technology and like

deep diving into like cinema
really has a hold on me right

now.

Like I am just Like I am.

So I loved asteroid city.

I'm so excited for Oppenheimer
like and uh and Dune.

I'm like listening to the audio
book like preparing for Dune

too.

So, oh, wow, yeah, nice it's.

I think that cinema just like
has not been that great in the

past decade.

It's just been a bunch of Marvel
like recycled bullshit where

it's just like sure yeah it's
like dude, like give, give me

some good fucking stories, man,
like I just I don't know.

Oppenheimer seems like the best
one in my opinion so far.

We're just like.

This is so hype.

I cannot, I genuinely cannot
wait to see this.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: You know that's gonna
be a good one.

Um side note, one of the
artists in the space did one of

the Dune covers.

Um no shit, griff yeah, griff,
crypto yeah.

Speaker 1: That's sick.

I'm a big fan of Dune.

I I enjoy Dune because it's
book cover.

I should say, oh, the book
cover, yeah, I mean.

But those stories are great
though, like uh, and I remember

watching the movie and it was
incredibly slow, but there it's.

It reminds me similar, like of
like a Lord of the Rings type of

beat, you know where.

It's like Tolkien, tolkien put
so much detail into his books

where it's like half the book of
the Fellowship of the Ring was

describing a period of seven
days.

It's like holy shit, man, um
right, so I don't know, I'm just

like, I'm just trying to like
enjoy movies again.

I'm really, I'm really hoping
we as a society can come somehow

come together and make movies
great again.

Like I don't know what that's
going to take, but you know, um

yeah, I'm really enjoying that.

Um, yeah.

So I don't know, I'm just
trying to find things outside of

this space that contribute to
my happiness, that I can bring

back into this space to evolve.

You know what I mean.

Yeah, um yeah.

Speaker 2: So photography for me
has been it.

Um, I take a lot of pictures of
my kids with a actual camera.

Um and that's been fun.

And then, like, when I go on a
trip somewhere, I'll try to take

a camera so I can take pictures
of stuff I think is interesting

.

So that's been fun for me
getting into that.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I mean, and weren't you, if I,
if I remember this right, like,

weren't you, you've, you've
released a few like mints, um,

of some photography stuff that
you've done?

So have you always been taking
pictures, like before you came

here, um, or yeah?

Speaker 2: Um, well, okay.

So I went to art school for
like two and a half years.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2: And then back then I
did black and white photography

and developed my own film and
made my own prints and I loved

it a lot, like a lot, and but
then I, you know, transitioned

into something else in school
and just kind of like dropped it

and you know, picked up point
and shoots here and there for

like trips, like to Europe type
thing, um.

But last year Pete Halverson
listed a photograph for sale

that came with a camera and I
bid on it and got it and I got

the camera and it reignited my
love for photography.

So I picked up a couple more
cameras since that camera and

just been having fun playing and
enjoying it.

Hmm.

Speaker 1: Has has being, uh,
has like having that deep

background in photography.

Like has that given you a
little bit more like empathy on

from the artist perspective,
like when you're collecting work

like has cause, I feel like
being like, I feel like artists.

When they start getting into
collecting, they're like oh, now

I kind of see where collectors
are coming from, you know, and

like when collectors meant
something like oh shit, like

this is a lot harder than I
thought you know um, right,

right, right, Do you it
definitely has.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, I mean, I
mean cause, like my first

minute, my first minute was like
some typography work I did in

art school that I that I enjoyed
, and it happened right when

that I committed it and it
happened right when the fricking

oh, what was it?

Something blew up and gas was
insane and I was just like

perfect and I was like I only
gave people a week to do it.

So it is what it is.

Oh my God, yeah, I remember
that.

So, yeah, I mean, I definitely
feel that you're like fuck, no

one's like not many people are
buying it, you know like no one

likes it and you're like but gas
is insane right now, so awesome

.

Speaker 1: Like right now gas is
70 Guay for absolutely no

fucking reason.

Speaker 2: Right, yeah, that's
cool though, man.

Yeah, I mean I, I did a little
minting of some of my earliest

podcast episodes.

Speaker 1: You know cause,
before I came here I was in, I

was in the eSports realm and
before that I just recorded like

16 episodes, 17 episodes on my
phone, just cause I'm like

before.

I know.

I know how unhinged my hubris
gets like when I find something

new to like sink my teeth in,
like I'll just go spend a

shitload of money on it.

You know like.

Speaker 2: I know that, I know
that.

Speaker 1: Right, like.

So obviously you know like I
like when I do something, I like

I take forever to make up my
mind, but like, once my mind is

made up, like there is no
thought, there's no

consideration, it's like gas
pedal to the floor.

So I recorded 16 episodes on my
phone cause I'm like okay,

before I just go ape shit and
buy a bunch of equipment I don't

understand how to use, let me
do this.

And I actually just like fucked
around and like minted a few of

those on Tezos.

You know like where it's like
okay, yeah, cause I'm just like

okay, tezos is like number one.

I don't have the money to mint
this all on the.

I don't really think this is
just my take.

I'm sure people will disagree.

I just didn't think it really
had the merit to be on the.

You know like, and I know it,
for some people it's probably

not the right way to look at
that.

I definitely understand like a
lot of arguments, but for me it

was like this just didn't.

This felt like more of an
experiment than anything.

You know, it's just my personal
view.

Like on the chain and like how
I, how I view that and I do have

a great Tezos collection but it
was.

It was a fun process to go
through.

You know cause?

It was like gas was 30 cents.

You know like I.

You know like I got to walk
through all the emotions of like

will people like this.

I got to see how terrible I was
at promoting my own product.

You know, like, like wow.

I remember I was shit and I shit
and I showed it to D's on one

of his spaces and he was like
dude, why the fuck haven't you

been talking about this?

I'm like I don't know man, like
I don't know, like I suck at

this, you know.

So yeah.

Speaker 2: I know, yeah, it's
for sure, self promotion is so

hard, like cause.

You feel like like you're
talking only about you and

you're like nah, that's not how
I want to do it, but that's the

only way you can do it.

You're like, frank, I can't.

I can't terrible at it, I can't
do it.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like
because it's this balance of

like confident, like being
delusionally bullish on yourself

and not being an egomaniac
about it.

You know what I mean when it's
like because I think and it's a

struggle, for I see, with a lot
of people and with myself it's

like how do you be confident but
not come off as cocky?

You know, like, right, it's a
fine line to balance or a very

thin line or very thin, tight
rope to walk.

You know for sure, for sure,
yeah, so it's fun, it's.

It gave me a lot more empathy on
, like you know, collecting and

like you know, maybe maybe I see
someone early on in their

career, but like I just think
that they have it.

You know, maybe they maybe
they're not as good at it right

now, because no one's good at
anything the first time they try

it, or the first couple.

You know, because this space is
also intimidating as well.

Like this is, yeah, as as
welcoming as this is for people

that have a vision, especially
right now.

You know, like it can appear
welcoming, but like I think some

people are figuring out that
like this shit's a lot tougher

than I think people realized.

You know, um, yeah, like, yeah,
like we welcome good thoughts,

like how it turns out having a
good thought and a good idea and

being able to follow through
this a lot harder than people

thought.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it is
definitely yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the
building in public aspect is a

great part of this, but it's
like Kevin Rose having a hard

time with that.

Like I got a lot of empathy for
Kevin Rose.

Man, like Kevin was one of the
first people that I like was

listening to when I first came
into the space.

It was a huge inspiration for
this podcast.

Actually, you know, because,
yeah, there was nobody

interviewing artists Before I.

You know, like when you and I
came in here, like there was

very few people doing it and
Kevin was like consistently

doing.

It was like oh, like that's
kind of dope.

So I took a lot of inspiration
from that.

So I it's easy to rip on Kevin
right now, you know, but maybe I

have a soft spot, maybe I'm not
seeing something, but yeah, I

don't know.

I don't know where else going
at all.

Speaker 2: Building in public.

It's hard.

Speaker 1: Building in public is
hard.

You guys are doing it really
well, though it seems to be

working working well for y'all.

Have you guys gotten any like,
just if you feel like sharing,

or have you gotten any harsh
criticisms from the project or

like cause?

I'm really curious.

Speaker 2: No, it's like it's
balanced, because you have like

pass holders who want smaller
supply all the a lot of the time

and it's hard to do because you
only have.

So you have so many pass
holders and you want to grow the

projects, so you do want public
in there.

So it's like this balance.

You're like, well, I'm like
make number go up.

Well, I mean, we got to get,
you know, more people in it, but

make the supply smaller.

Okay.

So how do we get more people in
it?

Like, come on guys, yeah, it's
also a bear market, so what do

you expect me to do?

I'm like I'm building cause I
enjoy the art, I enjoy the

artists and helping them out and
you know these awesome

interviews and videos.

But yeah, that's all we can
focus on right now because

numbers going down in a lot of
places.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally man.

I mean.

So yeah, dude, it's a huge like
shot of it, cause like that's

that's incredibly hard to do and
like realigning people's

expectations is probably it
takes time, um and like trying

to get people to focus on a long
term vision is really hard when

the numbers going down Seems
like it's really easy when the

numbers going up.

Speaker 2: Um.

You know, it's the community.

Wag me.

Speaker 1: Um, yeah, yeah, I
would love to kind of know, like

so are y'all do it.

You know we're still in season
one with click create.

Are you guys like it's season
two, is season one about to end?

This season two, what's kind of
been?

If you can, if you're
comfortable sharing like

obviously I don't want to.

You know, if you guys have some
stuff that you don't want to

share, fine.

But we'd love to kind of know,
like maybe some of your like,

how you're going to approach
season two maybe a little

differently in season one, or
kind of what's been y'all's

biggest takeaway, um, since
doing this?

Speaker 2: Um, I think we've,
we've learned a lot though in

the first couple of months.

Um, we've made adjustments and
I think we have a pretty good

rhythm going on right now.

Um, we're definitely, you know,
working on lining up curators

for season two, um, cause we're
in month seven and um, we're

just getting things lined up.

I mean, we got a strong rest of
the year, um, so I think we're

just going to, you know, finish
out this year strong and launch

again.

Uh, and I don't know if we'll
take the month off, like

February, january, january,
february off and just to start

in March again.

We might do something like that
, um, cause doing it every week

is like a grind man, oh dude.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, trust me,
like I, we, we thought about

this for the podcast of, like
you know, monetizing the podcast

.

It's like, you know, with our
media pass.

It's like, um, you know, how do
we stay consistent but also not

act?

But also just like like making
sure that we're providing as

much value as we can for people
that are paying for it, like as

humanly possible, you know, um,
but also like how do we keep

doing this and evolving it?

And like continuously asking
people for money and providing

something new.

You know, like um.

So you know we're doing, we're
doing, uh, we're taking, like

our season one for the podcast
ends in July and we're taking,

uh, august and September off to
do a retrospective, to line up

season two, line up season two.

I will personally take a week
off of just everything, cause

you know it's it's exhausting,
uh, to do this and I I enjoy it

and I love it, but I've never
given myself a break in nearly

three years that I've been doing
this, you know.

So it's like right, I am
absolutely taking a break, um,

but, um, yeah, I think it's it's
it's it's the biggest challenge

, like it was.

So we're probably aligned with
doing that as well, where it's

like you know, even though we're
doing something different, it's

we, it's different, it's we.

You know, there's got to be a
right way or got to be a way

that works for the individual
person or the group to like okay

, like there's got to be some
downtime, there's got to be some

, like recharging of the
batteries, like um for sure, for

sure.

You know, um, with this, like
with that being longterm, as we

start wrapping up here, uh, you
know, like I would love to kind

of get you know.

We talked about this you just
mentioned it a little bit with

click create.

You know this is a really
nebulous open ended question.

So take it however you want to
um, scarcity in the longterm,

what's your, what's your, what's
your, what's your take on this?

Um, the never ending fucking
debate that we have.

Oh, ah, this is a good one.

Speaker 2: This is a good one.

Um, scarcity, so I think
there's definitely a balance.

Um, I feel currently there's no
worry for it from my

perspective, because you need to
be in so many wallets.

You got to have some, some sort
of demand before you can worry

about scarcity.

I think that's part of the
reason why X copy did so good is

he had so much work out there
already and then, you know, a

little demand happened and
people saw that and they're like

oh, I got one or two pieces, I
can sell one, you know, and that

creates a secondary market,
having hundreds of one of ones

out there and thousands of
additions.

So, yeah, I am not a huge fan of
, you know, like this hardcore

scarcity thing because we're so
fresh in the space.

It does make me wonder if some
that are hardcore scarcity can

make it, because if you don't
have, you know, a core support,

you know who's gonna root for
you.

You know there's some.

If you have like 20 people,
they can root so much, but when

you got a thousand, that's a lot
more rooting, that's a lot more

spreading the word.

So that's my take.

I think it's not.

I think it's not a big deal
right now or so fresh in the

space.

I mean, I think once you grow
and you can and you have support

consistently, you can then
start worrying about scarcity

and controlling how you do
things.

Speaker 1: But yeah, I like that
.

Yeah, I mean I I have a
different answer, but it's kind

of the same, like vibe, it's the
same, it's the same sentiment

as like I don't think it really
matters.

I look at this is that what we
view in an ever, in an

increasingly digital age.

I feel like scarcity is a
moving goal post.

Like I think that, like what we
view scare, like because we

look at music, you know, we had
like I'm just gonna throw the

iPod out there, or just even a
CD player or a tape player or a

record.

You know, 12 songs was like the
max that you could fit on there

, you know, and you had to
purchase individual songs and

you had to, and the iPod was
limited and the biggest iPod was

160 gigabytes, which that's a
lot of fucking music.

But yeah, it's still.

There's an idea.

The idea of scarcity has, like,
I think, as technology

exponentially increases and the
larger things get, you know, the

more storage we have, the more
you know space we have, the the

more like we're making things
bigger and smaller at the same

time.

Phones, you know, the
technology and phones has gotten

exponentially smaller, but the
capability and the space has

gone way up, you know.

So it's like I don't know.

I'm like what we think scares
today it had will will

absolutely not be scarce 10
years from now.

You know like that right
definition will change.

I think it's just like.

It's a very disillusioning meme
.

You know where it's like.

I think it does more harm than
good.

Speaker 2: You know like yeah,
and I think you know not.

There's not enough additions
out there and people want to

collect, they want to say they
own it, but you're only gonna

release so many additions a year
.

You know I like what May is
doing.

I love every month yeah, you
know it's affordable.

You can support the artist and
get awesome art once a month and

then she can, you know, and
then she does not.

She's not even making like one
of ones.

Very often those are like the
actual scarcity yeah is in the

one of ones of hers, whereas you
can buy her additions.

So and that supports her.

You know, keeping her one of
ones scarce or whatever you

wanted to, I think it, and I
think additions in the long run

are, you know, gonna have the
most upside versus one of ones

as far as, like, percentage
gains, if people want to talk

about that, it's just more
liquidity and that, and you know

, generally an addition to
something that is as good as a

one-on-one and something that
has more general appeal hmm,

yeah, I like that, so it I guess
the what I'm hearing is like

the.

Speaker 1: The one of ones is
can be a lot more niche appeal

and the additions are more like
mass appeal or larger appeal

than the one of ones right.

Speaker 2: I mean not that the
one of ones can't, but I think

it's definitely different.

I mean it's definitely
different buyers, for sure, but

you know you always gonna have
more buyers for your additions

and that's that's where your
support should come from, mm.

I don't know.

That's how I view it.

Yeah, live off additions and
the one-on-ones are like icing

on the cake.

Speaker 1: I like that.

It's a great.

That's a great, it's a great
way to think about, it's a great

mental model, because I at fun
enough, like when I was talking

with May, you know, and I was
talking like because we recorded

a podcast, you know, I think in
November of last year,

something like that and she was
like, you know, if you walk into

a store, an art shop, and you
only see two available works,

you know in your price out of
both of them, right, what are

you gonna buy?

Right, like, what are you gonna
do?

Yeah, you're just not gonna buy
anything.

And so you know, it's this and
it's also this running idea of

like, if you only do one of ones
, then you're just consistently

gonna price more and more people
out of your art.

And what if you look back and
like, if someone wants to

collect something and they only
see one of ones, they want

exposure to your work.

Like, you're not gonna be a
high price tag if they're just

getting exposed to you.

You know, yeah, like, it's kind
of like a, it's kind of like

shooting, shooting yourself in
the foot to do only one of ones,

or, like you know,
predominantly one of ones in the

beginning, because it's just
like economically it just

doesn't make sense, right?

I mean more money in one of
ones, obviously you know.

But it also what I've noticed
in my own journey as a collector

, like the more it requires more
thought and more time for me to

buy a one-of-one versus an
addition, like my thought

process completely different,
you know for sure yeah yeah, so.

Speaker 2: I mean I'm bigger
commitment, it's a bigger

investment.

You know you gotta do more
research, be like so this person

can be around, you know do you?

Speaker 1: so let me ask you
this do you value like?

So, when it comes to like
buying, you know, when it comes

to some of the larger, you know
purchases, you know, do you kind

of find a way that, like I
don't, I know what I want to ask

but the words aren't coming.

But it's like you know, even if
they're not around, like say,

you buy it, spend a significant
amount on a piece?

Obviously, I'm sure it would be
a little upsetting to like have

them not be here, but I guess,
what's your what?

How do you value them being
present in the space?

You know, when you purchase,
like how involves like like on a

scale, like, how does that like
?

You know what I'm trying to ask
like what like?

Speaker 2: yeah, no, I mean it's
like okay, it's.

I mean I think it's a big part
for me.

Yeah, I expect them to be in
the space because there's no

like historic reason for some of
these artists that are here to

have significance if they left
the space.

I mean maybe X copy if you left
the space, but I mean, like the

lost Robby's, those have an
interesting story and history to

them and so I think those have
historic value.

But currently, I mean I don't
know, unless there's some crazy

story with it.

If you left the space, I don't,
I don't know why it would remain

valuable.

If you're really can add an
investment standpoint, if you

like the art, then sure, you
mean I guess you could like I

wish they stayed around, yeah,
but if you're looking at as an

investment point, you're like no
, I want them in in the space.

You know saying hi here and
there.

I mean they don't have to be
grinding every day, but I just

want to see that they're still
active, making art.

Still, even if it's not in the
space, just still making art.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's
important yeah, I mean, I saw

that.

Speaker 1: We saw that with Dot
pigeon.

I know he had a.

There was a big uproar when he
like left web 3 and, like you

know, there's some people have
some very valid criticisms in

his communication, where it was
like you're criticizing the

things that you milk the hell.

You know these mechanics that
you like milked the hell out of

right, like, and it's like, just
because they're not working for

you now you're just not gonna
participate here anymore.

It was kind of a slap in the
face, right, you know, but who

knows, time will tell.

It's like, if they continue
making art that transcends

outside of the space, in the
long run, right will that be?

Will will the will they be
worth it or not?

These, no, it could be a period
or a pivotal point in his career

, because I, even with
podcasting like there's a lot of

there's I even put a tweet out,
like when I was working more in

the corporate world.

It's like I spent a better part
of my 20s fighting a game that I

couldn't change and that I
wasn't willing to play, you know

, and it's like, yeah, what did
I do?

It got so painful that I found
a new game that I was willing to

play, but I accepted the fact
that there's always a game to

play.

You know, right, like, there is
always a game, a societal game,

that you have to play.

It's like which one are you
just gonna do and which one are

you just not willing to do?

So for sure, this could just
not be a game that he's willing

to play and that may be totally
okay and in the long run, who

knows like it could.

You know, you always look back
at these artist stories and it's

like they're the most
non-linear trajectories you know

of like what, of how people
become remembered and remain

relevant throughout the decades.

You know great.

So things I think about when I
have, now that I have time to

think about things yeah well,
guy, this has been a lot of fun.

I know we're kind of coming up
on the hour we're a little bit

over, so I appreciate you.

Spending some time hiring a
sitter to do this really means a

lot.

You know, shout out to you
awesome and all you do in the

spaceman.

I had a blast and so would love
to kind of know, like if

there's any.

You know we talked about a few
of your projects the click

create, the.

What's the name of the one with
the camera that, the Fujifilm

camera that you send?

Yeah?

Speaker 2: it's?

It's like one exposure or click
, mid-pass click, like I have

two names for it.

Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, it
sounds the same, so but would

love to kind of, if people want
to get in contact, would see

like a little bit more about
what you're doing, or you know

what click creation like where
would you want people to go

first?

Speaker 2: probably just Twitter
.

I think everything's in my my
profile there.

I think it's at guy nor cow.

Everything's there.

There's like a link tree type
thing there and all the projects

, the handles are in there.

So that's like the only spot
you on threads, yet I mean I

signed up for it, I think lat
yesterday, but I was like I know

no one's gonna go here.

I mean they say they are, but
they also said that for blue sky

.

Speaker 1: So yeah, totally I'm.

I mean we could probably talk a
little more.

I think it's a little bit
different than blue sky.

I think blue sky was starting
from zero.

I think you know threads is
starting from not zero.

I think there's some right
things that are there.

I see artists having fun on it,
but I'm just like that's

Facebook.

Yeah, it's like do we want?

Do we comes down to morals like
do you want Zocker, do you want

Elon?

You know it's like right, but
anyway we won't go into that

rabbit hole as we're wrapping
things up.

But, guy, this has been
fantastic and thank you so much

again for coming on, man yeah,
thank you so much.

Speaker 2: I appreciate what you
guys doing over there at at

Schiller and I appreciate the
opportunity.

Come on and and have a good
chat with you.

Hope to see you at the next,
but at the next event.

Speaker 1: Art Basil, you gonna
be there.

Speaker 2: I should be there and
or Marfa yeah.

Speaker 1: I need to get on that
, okay.

Yeah, like I'm in Texas, I have
no excuse to not be there.

Like I have zero yeah, you need
to rent an RV and drive over

there we've actually talked
about that for the Schiller,

like we're not doing it for
Schiller this year, but like

next year we've fungee actually
throughout.

That exact idea is getting an
RV and in and driving it down.

I think I'd be sick, yeah
that'd be awesome yeah, man.

Well, let's do it.

I'll do a quick sign up and
have a great rest of your day.

My friend, I meant you too.

Take care.

Thank you for joining us on the
season one finale of the

Schiller curated podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation and the season as a

whole.

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, don't forget to subscribe to

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Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember art is

everywhere and it's up to us to
appreciate and explore the

beauty it brings to our lives.

Until next season.

This is Boone signing off.