Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the

Schiller Curated Podcast.

This week's guest is Alejandro
Cartonega, a renowned

photographer whose work is
displayed in the San Francisco

MoMA and is the co-founder of
Fellowship Trust.

In this episode, we have a
nuanced combo about the

relationship between the PFP
community and the art community.

Our fellowship's new smart
contracts will be crucial for

the future of photography and,
lastly, all things AI, including

the history of the charge
definition post-photography.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Alejandro GM.

Alejandro, how are you man?

Speaker 2: I'm good Good.

Thank you for having me.

It's always a pleasure to talk
to people that I admire and are

doing cool things in the space.

Speaker 1: There's not many of
us doing cool things right now,

so it's.

Speaker 2: Don't be harsh.

Don't be harsh.

Speaker 1: I mean, let's just
say it's easier to see the

people doing.

There's a lot of people doing
things.

I should say that.

But the people doing good
things are.

We'll just say they're easier
to spot.

Is that what we'll phrase?

That?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't
know what's gotten into me, but

I've decided to take a leap into
the other side of NFTs and I've

been joining maybe four spaces
a day of more of the Azuki kind

of things and all these hype
machine kind of spaces and it's

fascinating.

There's so much gibberish and
so little ideas but a lot of

conversation of the same thing
over and over and over again.

But then sometimes you spot
really intelligent people and

they don't get too much airtime
but they're there, they're

talking interesting things more
in the statistics kind of things

.

Yesterday were some really good
spaces about blur that I

thought were interesting to
listen to.

And yeah, I mean I don't know
why after almost three years of

being here I decided to start
listening to that stuff, but

it's been interesting to say the
least it is.

Speaker 1: That is a great word
to describe it.

I love the word.

Interesting can mean so many
things.

Yes, interesting, it's the
great blanket statement to hide

some of the real emotion in
there.

I do it all the time, but I
mean I'm glad you brought this

up I think I saw a tweet about
this where there's people that

like these space, like
occasionally you'll get someone

who has at least an idea of what
they're talking about.

I mean, I say that to say no one
knows what the fuck we're doing

here.

But people who have a genuine
interest and have spent some

time in research get up on stage
and there's a different tone.

It's usually rooted in
experience and research and they

have a leg to stand on, so to
say.

But unfortunately, right now it
sucks that.

That's not the norm, I guess.

I think people right now really
want to be entertained versus

educated.

I've often I've had my moments
where, because I came in in the

PFP community side so that was
kind of how I initially was

onboarded.

Then I tripped and fell and
found art and I haven't really

left since.

But I also noticed it's a
common.

There's always this divide
between the collectible and PFP

community and the art community
and it's and I see it on both

sides and myself have you know,
I've obviously partook in

judgments and feeling different
and feeling like we're not the

same community.

But the reality is that we both
need each other and, like PFPs,

whether the artist artistic
community likes or not, drives a

lot of liquidity into art, like
it's.

You know.

You hear D's say that all the
time, like if I'm not making

money degenerately gambling, I'm
not buying art.

You know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I completely
agree with that, and you know

there's many things that I would
comment on what you just said.

I was.

I mean I was buying a lot of
PFP stuff in 2021 and 2022.

I mean, I spent a lot, a lot of
money on that and I was the

worst gambler because I don't
know how to sell it, right.

And now I have a bunch of stuff
that I still hold it, just for

the memories.

You know it's there's something
, there's something about them

that just I go back to, and some
have gone to zero and that's

fine.

It was just a.

It's almost like timestamps of
oh, this was what I was thinking

the NFT space was about at that
time, Right, and it's evolved

my understanding of it and
that's why I don't buy that much

anymore, because it was my
proof to myself that I wanted to

really understand the space I
was coming into and the culture

that I was contributing to.

So I wanted to go all in and
try everything.

And one of the like, one of the
things that you mentioned the

idea of experience, people or
the just the idea of basing

arguments on experience like how
could I even be a champion of

this space without actually
experiencing those moments,

disillusionment, those
excitements, all of that.

I went through all of that.

Like you know, I bought stuff
because of FOMO.

I have one moment I remember
that I FOMO'd into an art blocks

drop.

I can't remember the artist,
but it was a really good artist.

I had never heard of them.

I started seeing on my timeline
people were buying, buying,

buying, buying.

I went in I bought a and I got
scared.

And I think I paid one ETH and
I got scared.

I'm like, okay, I'm just going
to let it go.

I sold it for like 1.15.

Two days later, think, pumped
to eight ETH, yeah, yeah.

And I was like oh, my God okay,
this is what people talk about

missing out and FOMO.

This is the cycle, this is the,
this is what it means.

So I don't regret absolutely
anything of that those two years

.

They were really important in
understanding how I want to be

an artist in the space, how I
want to be a promoter in the

space.

So you know, you can talk about
those things without going

through with them.

Speaker 1: So you can, and I
love that.

That's a fresh perspective,
because I'm sitting here looking

back at how many things I
should have sold and that I just

missed out.

And also, you know, like I was,
I'm still not the I'm getting.

I've made exponential gains
this year, but I was terrible

with money then.

Like I was so bad with money
and I was already in debt,

playing in a space to just spend
.

I didn't put any of that
towards my debt.

You know, and that was one of
my biggest mistakes.

I did in 2022, but then re re
ignited that I didn't learn my

financial lesson, you know,
because it was like, okay, I'm

not going to pay off that until
I get a big flip.

And I did, and then I paid it
off and then went right back in,

but I didn't learn anything.

I didn't learn anything, you
know, because I went and almost

equaled that same amount by the
time, I guess, 2023.

So we do a little like learning
and you know, through the tough

yeah, I guess the tough way is
the way to say it, but I like

your take on it, though.

It's like this is a proof of,
it's almost like a proof of

participation, because there was
, there was so much, and the way

I look at this I don't know if
this is cope or not, but the way

I look at this is that this was
our first crack at expressing

digital identity that we own,
you know, and because you look

back and you're like what, why
did we spend so much money on

this shit?

Like, why, like, why.

Like we were like, we had
absolutely no sense of money and

value and what we were spending
.

We had no idea what we were
spending on.

But if you look back at that
moment in time, that was v one

of digital identity, you know,
because up until that point, no

one's had an opportunity to own
their digital identity.

Ironically, we spend most of
our lives on these apps and we

don't own that.

So I don't know, that's a.

That's at least my take on that
to help bring things back into

perspective.

Speaker 2: No for sure, and
we're still learning.

Yeah, I just a like I look back
at all the projects I bought

into and I was always curious
like, okay, like the cryptos.

I remember that was like one of
my I think it was my first

three PFPs that I ever bought
were cryptos.

I bought them because I was a
like lurking in the punks

discord and I remember somebody
saying all these Kremlin, blah,

blah, blah.

I'm like I have no idea what
these people are talking about,

but they seem to know something.

So I went and I I remember I
was with my partner and she was

like we were looking, we're like
, should we like?

They say, should we buy it?

And she's like, yeah, go for it
.

Okay, I think I paid like 0.25
and then 0.35.

Then she's like buy another one
.

And I'm like, okay, and I
bought three.

And they went up to eight or
nine.

And I remember Fernando
Gallegos he was here at the

studio a lot and he's like I'm
going to flip the ones that I

bought because we were at that
time we had a like a really

active chat of look at this PFP
project, look at this one, look

at this one.

We were buying, buying, buying,
and I never sold it, you know.

And now they're I think they're
0.65 or something like that.

So you know, I went through the
hype cycle, went down and came.

It went back up, maybe one, two
, three.

Anyways, in the course of that,
cryptos has had so many

different things happen to it.

It's had because it's CCO and
there is like the flip toads I

bought into that.

The zombie toads I bought into
that.

The socks, a a I bought into
that.

The 3d a I bought into that.

Like everything, like I have
the versions of my three toads

in three different in like I
don't know five, six different

versions of different, a sub,
subsequent projects, some who

that are gone, like zeros it,
0.000000000, like nothing.

But it was very important now in
retrospect to like, oh, these,

like what is a derivative
project?

What can people do?

The claiming process, this,
that like.

Those things are part of what
I'm doing today, but with a

sense, with a sense sensibility
of of how does that really

translate to real value for
photography and art?

How do you translate those
mechanics, those gimmicks, into

real things that we had not
thought about in photography and

art?

So that is very important and I
see new projects come in it,

trying to like do things in NFTs
and it's like I can see them a

mile away, like they have no
clue what they're doing Cause

they haven't gone through the
bad cycles of building projects

and seeing projects succeed and
fail over and over again, and

good for them.

They're gonna have to go
through their cycle, but there's

so many more things that we
need now because of all those

failures, and we don't need to
start with projects that feel

2021.

We need people who have the
capability of analysis and

understanding so that we all
that counts and it wasn't just

lost money.

It was actually a learning curve
for everybody who comes in.

Today it's like, okay, look at
all this crap that happened,

learn from it.

Now where are you going?

But sometimes you don't see
that and it's like, oh man,

you're just gonna start at the
beginning.

Okay, girlfriend, you know
that's.

You can't do anything about it.

Speaker 1: No, everyone's gotta
cut their teeth and whether

you're a market participant in
the way of buying, you know,

whether it's PAPs, art, whatever
, or on the founder side, like I

think, everyone's gotta come in
and try and cut their teeth.

And you know, I think that's
one of the if we're going back

to things that I like kind of
the early 2021 days, with which

what sold me in the space was
that people were really

comfortable about sharing their
losses, about sharing their

failures.

That was the one thing, because
I came from the gaming

community where no one was
incentivized to share their

losses.

It was only shit.

Anytime someone lost, it was
like a dog pile and, just, you

know, beat them to the ground.

That was the one thing.

And you could almost argue that
some that's kind of what we're

living through right now in this
space, but that's what

attracted me then was that
people were willing to share

their failures, people that were
here, that were participating

before the gold rush kind of
happened.

It was people really embraced
the idea of an experiment, like

it's like there was like this
common unspoken thing that like

hey, this is a big test, you
know, this is like so something.

Like most things are gonna fail,
some things are gonna succeed,

and so that's one thing that
like really attracted me to that

, and so I think that, hopefully
, I guess my hope is that, as we

I don't know what part of the
cycle we're in right now, but

like I've never been here before
, that's all I know but I hope

we can kind of start getting
back to that like learning in

public and not just being
completely disincentivized from

doing that, because that's how
some of the best projects

thrived, succeeded.

You know, like you look at like
the board and dangerous team.

You know, like with Jenkins
Valley, like they they're one of

the best examples and this
we're not gonna spend too much

time talking about only PFPs but
like they're one of the best

examples of like a as a
community.

You know they fucked up on the
art really bad, and they went

back to the drawing board for
months before they came back

with a product that they thought
their community would like.

Speaker 2: You know, yeah, just
yeah, that's, I mean, that's so

important.

And there are levels of
failures and we've seen big, big

failures and big mess ups and
big teams endanger themselves

and sometimes we're forgiving of
that.

Sometimes we're not.

One thing that, you know, I've
heard in these spaces that I

hadn't considered is this
there's a weird understanding of

what exactly is to own an NFT
of a project.

You know, and you have some of
the Maxis talking about.

Well, you know it's like Apple.

You go and buy your iPhone and
you know, if they bring out the

next iPhone and you don't like
them, are you just gonna throw

away your iPhone that you have
just because you don't like the

new project?

And I mean that's a good point.

You know it's like and you're
not asking them hey, you're not

flooding them and you're still
using the product, right,

totally, because you committed
yourself to put money into

something that you will find
useful for yourself.

And then you know you have the
other argument that when

somebody says that it's like,
yeah, but that's you like

there's utility, you could
actually use it.

What do you use these PFPs for?

Then you know, is it and that's
a solid argument, right, like?

What exactly do you get out of
this?

And then you have the other
people asking well, you know,

this is very unprofessional of a
founders and projects, of

bringing out projects that are
hurting other projects that

they've already been successful
with and they're hurting us, the

buyers.

And it's like, well, yes and no
, I mean, this isn't your, you

don't have like stocks in them,
you don't have like, you're not

how do you call it?

You're not a stockholder and
you're not.

You can't hold how people
accountable, they're just doing

projects.

Right, the team producing art
or however you want to call it.

They're producing stuff.

They're excited and they're
like they think, oh, let's do

this thing now, let's see what
happens with this, and nobody's

forcing you to buy into these
things.

They're just, you know, it's an
open market, it's an open

market.

So that's an interesting
perspective too, when you have

these like holder maxis, that
feel that founders, all of them

stuff and yes, and I believe
that yes and I believe that no

at the same time.

So there's these like, but there
is, I think there isn't a

nomenclatures for all these
different ways of how the market

functions.

Hence the disillusionment, the
over expectations, because there

isn't that clarity.

Now, because of that lack of
clarity, there's also great

opportunities to build an
experiment.

So it's what do you want?

Right Cause, if it's like the
cell phone market, it's about

building cell phones.

That's it.

That's all you're gonna do.

But the NFT market, what the
hell is it?

It's many things at the same
time and it hasn't really

branched out in very clear
manners Even.

I mean, you have PFP people
saying that it's art, but then

you have the artists that are
doing one of ones that also call

it art, and it's like what the
F?

Right?

Speaker 1: And which one is art.

Speaker 2: You know, so it's a
complicated thing, but there's

good things about the
complication and we just I think

we just need to be patient and
build as much as we can and be

as clear as we can, but it's
still a shaky space.

Speaker 1: It is.

You're totally right.

You hit on a lot of great
points there, I mean, and that,

yeah, the common, and that's one
thing where the art community

definitely has it right, where
it's like art is the utility and

that's what it is.

That is the one I mean.

There's a lot of many other
good things, but I have to say,

if there's one thing that we've
as, generally speaking outside

of a few exceptions, generally
speaking, that's what art has

nailed Is that this we have
solidified our own culture

within the NFT space or the
crypto art space that, like

there should be no expectation
outside of I see the art, I like

the art, I buy the art and
that's it, and anything else is

a cherry on top and it's a bonus
, and the artist should never be

expected to do anything but and
with PFPs, though, it's like

it's hard to not feel that
expectation, though Like it

feels more like an investment,
you know, then Like investment

in terms of a registered, you
know token or a protected token

or whatever the case may be, it
feels like that art doesn't so,

for what that's worth, I don't
know, you know nothing.

Speaker 2: I mean, no, you're
right.

You're right, there's, there is
.

The thing is that there's
precedent for For the arts

market.

There is a precedent where
people go by, look at work, look

at art.

They buy it, they store it.

They wait 10 years, 20 years.

Maybe they buy, they sell it,
maybe it goes up, maybe it goes

down, but there's hundreds of
years of that market in

existence, the PFP market.

You can maybe the most
relatable can be the Pokemon,

the baseball cars yeah, the
basketball cards, the

collectibles, but there isn't
the flooding and the like, the

asking of founders to produce In
the way that the PFP community

does.

It's just not, it's different.

There's an extra layer of
ownership that is involved.

That is new and that's where we
need to figure out what it

means, because you know people
buy Pokemon cards and Because

they want to, you know, want to
make money, but they're not in a

discord on Twitter saying, hey,
you know the stock, the paper

stock, that you use this shit,
or you know the hologram isn't

as good.

I mean, right, there's random
comments, but it's not like,

it's not the same.

I don't know, I don't know how
to explain it, but it's just not

the same.

There's not a sense of
ownership of the project,

there's only a sense of
ownership of the card that you

have in front of you.

That's it.

Speaker 1: That's a good point.

Yeah, I hadn't heard that
comparison before, but I think

you're.

I Think you're onto something
for sure and that's something

I'll noodle on for a little bit.

Because, you know, like I and I
think that's probably why I

understand art a little bit
better is because I don't

there's not many things that I
enjoy collecting.

You know, like I had Pokemon
cards as a kid.

I still have them.

You know that's like the only
thing that I truly collected,

and Knowing that like they could
be worth something one day.

I mean I was a kid so I didn't
really know.

But as I got older and started
to see more kids enter into the

ecosystem, it was like, okay,
maybe I should keep them after

10 years of buying them.

But outside of that, I collect.

You know, I'm a big fan of the
band tool and like I collect

tool posters to the shows I go
to.

I collect magazines, limited
edition vinyls, you know like

that.

So it's like it's still mostly
art.

You know it's still like Like
the things I do collect are

centered around, are centered
around art and things that make

me feel good not really in
Community is there and I love

the community, but it's honestly
secondary.

You know it's, it's secondary
to what I'm buying.

You know there's a, there is a
you call a platonic, you know,

relationship with the artist
that I'm buying from.

You know, and the community is
like the tool community is one

of the funnest and most Wild and
like radiant communities there

is, you know, and that's like
that's just bonus, you know, but

I don't talk to them every day.

I listen to tool every day, you
know.

So Anyway, uh, but yeah, I mean
I, this has been a great chat.

I mean I think that as we start
moving to, I've been constantly

something that's been on my
mind is Like, selfishly, what's

gonna kick off the next bull run
, you know, but also just like

trying to analyze where we're at
.

I think we're, if we're not at
the bottom, we're pretty fucking

close to the bottom and if that
is right, then Think, because

things have started to feel
familiar again.

You know, when I first came in
and I would love to hear kind of

your story about this as well
like when I first came in, it

was really mellow.

There was a lot of people
writing some like really good

threads about the tech protocols
.

You know that was kind of also
around when board apes was

coming out when v-friends was
coming out.

So there was, it was after the
people sale, but it was

generally comfortable to be
around and it didn't feel

hysterical, it didn't feel it
felt like the noise makers were

gone and I didn't know.

I.

So I just thought this is how
it was, you know.

So I just thought that this is
always the way it should have

been and it was great, and I
really it's where I built my

name.

So I'm starting to feel that a
little bit.

This is what I'm kind of hoping
.

We're uh, you know, I know it
comes after that.

But what I've been really
looking into and I'd love to

know kind of how you've
integrated this into fellowship.

We haven't even really done a
proper intro which we can do.

That but, um, you know, is what
is being built on the protocol

level.

You know, because that to me
it's it was like, yeah, like you

were talking about, it's all
the cool shit that we could do.

It didn't matter what the
result of what we did Was, but

it's just the fact that we could
do things with this token Was

something, I think, that really
made big projects stand out from

other projects.

So I would love to kind of know
on your end.

How are you like, how are you
looking in like, what are you

seeing on the protocol level
today that like excites you the

most, I guess, and how are you
implementing that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm not
the technician at fellowship,

but there I can tell you the
thing that enamored me about a

NFTs and what we're doing today.

From those first moments that I
encountered NFTs in 2020, the

one of them, like the most
exciting things, is the idea of

the NFT being this
representation of the value of

the image on the worldwide web,
and this is very abstract and

maybe conceptual to something to
agree, but for, like I Clearly

remember, I was talking to a
photographer, a legend.

His name is Joel a Sternfeld.

We did some of his NFTs at
fellowship December 2021, and he

said this sounds to me he's
mind.

He's like 80 something.

He's like this sounds to me,
alejandro, like what I've always

dreamt that Photography on the
internet would be, in the sense

that every time my images have
been shared, I would get some

kind of Micro dime for the
publishing of the work, and this

is exactly what Spotify has
done and all these streaming

Machines have done.

Which is sure, you want to see
it.

You're gonna pay for it, either
through a subscription or some

way.

There's monetization of the
publishing and viewing of

cultural and artistic content,
and so when Joel told me about

that, I was like how, like this
NFT can somehow Into the future

I don't think we're there yet,
but it can be the start of

thinking of.

This is the source of these
millions of replicas that exist

out there, of this really
important image that everybody

loves, everybody shares, because
it's just so Outstanding think

the Mona Lisa as a JPEG right.

It's been shared Billions of
times.

It's a curing value.

Whoever comes out with this is
the source of all those copies.

That NFT, that Digital image,
is gonna be the source and

harness the value of all those
digital replicas.

That idea is Monumental for me
and why I thought NFTs was gonna

be important for me as versus
an artist and then to others as

artists.

So it's.

I mean, it's a very simple idea
.

But how do you make that image
important?

Also, apart from being, like,
important Aesthetically, is what

you put into the image, the
metadata.

So I'll put an example, like
the project that we launched of

August Sander.

He's a German photographer,
20th century do Transform the

way that we think of a
photography as art.

It was all documentary and he's
in all the major museums in the

world and his work has been
published in hundreds of books

and what we've built into those
NFTs with the Aksander estate is

a catalog resume of where that
Image exists in physical form.

So when you encounter the NFT
and you're curious, what does

that image?

How does that image exist as
physical words of art?

You can go into the metadata
and see, oh, it's part of the

MoMA collection, it's part of
the King.

Paul Getty Museum.

It's part of this museum, it's
part of it's been published in

this book, etc.

Etc.

That value has never been truly
public.

That has been something for the
?

A Like Sotheby's and Christie's
, the auction houses.

When they're trying to sell a
piece of art, they have these

catalog resumes that you know
they're all cryptic and it's

like we need to make sure that
this is the work that is in this

museum and this museum and blah
, blah, blah.

And so here you're, building
this public Understanding of the

importance of the artwork.

So the use of metadata, I mean
it's the simplest of all the

things of the NFT idea.

It's one of the most valuable
things for art.

It's one of the.

I mean it just really adds
something that we hadn't seen

before and that is really
important for new projects and

new artists that are releasing
art as NFTs and Now are

transitioning into becoming
prints and books.

Those things are also going to
be valuable to be adding to the

NFT that started, as you know,
very simple metadata because

they're they didn't have track
traction, but suddenly they do

have traction and think of it
even more complex.

Every time it's posted on a
website, every time there's

anything about that work, you
start adding all that Digital

traction onto those NFTs.

Suddenly that NFT is gonna be
so valuable, not only for the

aesthetics but for the
information it contains.

You know about how that image
has influence the culture and

the world and the worldwide web.

I mean that is very Exciting for
me to think of the NFT as both

an aesthetic object but an
informant information object.

So everything that we try to do
at fellowship has the

flexibility of that metadata
updating, because Artworks are

living things, you know.

And there is the discussion oh,
but you can change the image,

you can change blah, blah, blah.

Yes, because artworks need to
change into the future.

And there's I remember I don't
know where I heard the

discussion or it was a Twitter
post about like the resolution.

You know what?

If right now, the standard is
4k but think 10 years

resolutions are gonna be 12k,
you know what are collectors

going to do to get their 12k
image?

Well, if we have access to the
updating, we can ask the artist

hey, we need 12k for this image,
can we update it so that they

can have access to that?

Yes, if the metadata is
flexible and can be updated.

So that's something that we
also find that this a Technology

can offer for digital
collectors that want to be, you

know, having the best artwork
that they can from, from

yesterday and into the future.

That's like that's one thing.

And then one of the projects
that we've launched in

fellowship, we called it the
print deed.

Speaker 1: Yes, I was hoping.

I was hoping you're gonna talk
about this.

Speaker 2: I shot out of my
chair when I saw that

announcement yeah, dude.

I mean that was We've been
talking about.

How do we solve this problem of
People like the artists that

we're working with, that are
native to NFTs, in the sense

that the work first is an NFT
and then it'll circulate as

physical objects?

How do we connect that world
and make it a, make it practical

and make it?

I don't even know how to like
make it practical, yeah, yeah,

and we there's been many
Iterations of how to do that,

but about, I would say, like
four months ago, fred Came up

with this idea.

He, he's like I got it, he's
like I got it.

Discord, and you know, it was a
rough sketch of what it would

be and Instantly I was like Fred
, you're a genius man, you

nailed it.

Yeah, so it's a very simple
mechanic the NF.

You, as a collector, you buy the
NFT, right, and you treasure

that NFT.

But there are, I would say,
like three main types of

collectors, that's.

There's the digital maxi that
just wants the NFT, doesn't want

to do anything else with that,
and I see.

But then you have the digital
maxi that a Might want a print

or might not want to print, but
how do they make money with the

possibility of the print Incomes
, the print deed.

You have your NFT, you're a
digital maxi, but you never want

to do the print.

But you have.

Now you can go to to to the
fall ship website.

You can claim the print deed of
your NFT, but you don't ever

want to print it.

You just sell the print deed.

So suddenly your NFT is two
NFTs the digital version and the

right to print one of the
editions of the edition prints

that exist in the real world.

So suddenly all Digitally
native NFTs that we're producing

at fellowship are two for once.

You're buying your NFT and
you're buying your.

You can also claim the print
right and you can either then

Traded in the NFT market or you
can print it and that's it.

There's not gonna be another
print of that edition that you

claim for your own.

Got it, got it.

So suddenly you were catering to
the different types of

Collectors that exist out there
for the one that just wants the

digital, for the ones that has
the wants the digital but once

you know, has access to the
print but doesn't really want to

hang it on their wall.

They want to trade it.

And the ones that really want
the physical and want it on

their wall.

So we opened up and created an
on-chain, which is really

important.

It's like it's a simple
mechanic you claim and you know,

like in retrospect, a Once he
like told me the mechanic and he

outlined I'm like this is like
the claiming system of the socks

of the cryptos, that you could
go and claim a sock because you

had that, a NFT, the crypto NFT.

So it's again coming full
circle to what we were talking

at the beginning.

It's because those mechanics
existed with a you know Whatever

kind of project that now we can
implement it to things that

really have Substance with art
right.

Speaker 1: I mean this is that
was there's a lot of want to

talk about there, because I
think that's Grant, I think

Grant young put out a recent
Hole around, you know, with

Fidenzas, because Fidenzas is
the collection that Suffers from

this problem right now.

Like, is the token worth more
With or without the physical

print?

You know, and like, what do
people want?

And so many people are divided
Because you look at the comments

, it's like some people say it
should be worth 10x if the print

hasn't been claimed.

Some people think that it
should be worth, you know, half

price with the print claimed.

Some people think it should be
worth half price without the

print claim.

You know, like they did, they
place zero value on whether the

physical has been claimed or not
, and so I think it's a really

cool fundamental approach.

And may I would love to kind of
know if this is kind of how

y'all approach things, that
fellowship.

But instead of solving for one
use case, it sounds like you

just look at what types of
people are there and how can we

build a product to, yeah, you
know, appeal to everyone and

ultimately let the market decide
.

Because I think the challenge
with NFTs and the challenge with

this Market, at least with me,
is that you have so many people

Truck because we.

The problem with awareness you
know it's love awareness, I it's

, you know.

I think we get more aware as
the like as the human race

evolves.

But the problem with awareness
is that we understand that we're

in an art Renaissance.

The art Renaissance, you could
argue.

They may not have known how
historical of a moment that

would actually be and so they
were kind of just vibing and

living in the moment.

We have a little bit of history
to learn off of and say, oh,

that's what this is right now.

So I think the challenging part
with a bunch of people who are

early to a new technology is
thinking about the future and

Thinking about what is going to
be valuable, what is not going

to be valuable and trying to
place bets accordingly on that.

The challenge is that you know,
similar I draw back this.

I make this drawback on almost
every podcast but it's like when

the Mac first came out, the
biggest thing that they thought

it was the biggest value at at
the time that they could really

drive home to the consumer was
that it was a place to store all

your online recipes.

It's like that was the biggest
thing they had planned.

You know, and it's like you
look at what the computer did to

the world.

The world I mean it changed it
single-handedly was one of the

most important devices in the
entire world.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think I make that point
because we're I think we're at

that moment with NFTs where it's
like it's so easy to speculate.

You know, five, ten, twenty,
fifty years, you know what is

this going to mean.

I don't think we can really
clearly comprehend past two to

three years.

Like I really don't think so,
because you look at the computer

and how it evolved, no one
could have predicted that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm gonna.

I'm gonna say yes and no, okay.

Yes because it's constantly
evolving and possibilities are

very wide, and no To the people
who have experience.

We go back to that word that we
use, that you mentioned before

and I mentioned before
Experience makes you see

technology and things that are
in front of you in a different

way.

You know, it's like, because
I've had the experience of being

a sell out, like a print
selling artist and a publisher,

I See things that maybe other
people can't see because they

haven't had that experience and
haven't developed problems and

never found solutions to those
problems.

And suddenly this technology
comes in.

It's like this is what I've
been waiting for, but it's

because of the building in
another medium, in another space

, in another market that
Experience is out of this world.

I mean, it's so, so valuable.

And what Fred did?

He's the manager of the
keyboard on a state which is

Givort on, is one of the
greatest photographers of all

time, and he's had to deal with
provenance.

He's had to deal with
reprinting Etc, etc, with

collectors, with collections,
with museums.

So he has this plethora of
experiences.

He's like this Mechanic is
gonna solve so many things for

me and one of it, like one of
the things that I'm really

excited about is like I have
collectors who have bought work

from me and have told me can you
hold that print for me Like I

don't want it right now?

Speaker 1: Just another artist.

Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%, just just
hold it and I'll tell you when

well In comes the print deed.

Dude, I'll send you the print
deed and whenever you're ready

you just go and claim your print
and it'll be shipped to you,

and I don't have to waste money
as an artist to print it and

have it here in storage.

I Can you can.

I can just give you the
authentic NFT deed of your

ownership of that print.

That will Be done when you're
ready, you know, and so suddenly

you can give.

You know you can never print
the print.

You can hold the deed for 10
years and suddenly you want to

give it as a present.

You send them the print NFT and
that person's gonna claim the

print Finally gonna because they
have a new house blah, blah,

blah.

But in the meantime it's safe
on the blockchain and there's no

you know, water leak or, yeah,
humidity problems or aging of

the paper, nothing.

It's an Authenticated print deed
that can be used whenever you

need that to become a physical
object.

I love that is Amazing.

That just solves so many
problems.

It's a green solution.

You know you can start selling
prints and you can openly as an

artist.

You can ask do you want the
print now or would you like that

or are you not ready?

No, I don't want it.

Okay, let's.

Here's your NFT deed, and
whenever you're ready, just let

me know and I'll send you the
link to claim the print.

And there's so much saving of
time on me as an artist, saving

on time from the artist and
having to ensure blah, blah,

blah all those things.

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's such a
scalable and Use case that it

can only come from somebody who
has 10, 15 years of experience

Selling prints and dealing with
the shit that it means to sell.

That's what.

That's why experience counts
here.

It's because he's built a
project like a product.

Yeah, totally means something
to to the real world because

he's had that problems.

Many, many times.

Speaker 1: That's you bring up a
great point.

I'm happy to be corrected there
because if you look back you

know printmaking is nothing new.

It's been well, it's been along
well before you know you or I,

were probably born, yeah, you
know, and so I guess that's.

I mean that's a great point
that you brought up.

Is that this is there have been
problems Dating probably back

centuries, you know, of
printmaking if you look all the

way back to it.

So, yeah, happy to be proven
wrong there because like and

it's already an industry that
has proven to be valuable, it's

just a pain.

It's just from what it sounds
like, it's just a royal pain in

the ass.

So question on the print deed,
though, I want to drill into

this a little bit and this may
be it may not be on top of mine,

but with the deed, is that
Something that is baked into the

original NFT or is this
something?

Is this like a claim it because
there's a new II, there's new

ERC coming out, or yeah, I'm not
sure if it's an EIP or ERC yet,

but where you, your NFT, can
actually store NFTs.

Speaker 2: NFTs.

Yeah, I know about that.

No, it's.

This is a separate 1155 and it
because 1155 is a sore flexible

for additions.

Speaker 1: It was the perfect
method for us to use.

Okay, okay, yeah, cool, okay.

That was just a random nerdy
question.

No, no, it's okay yeah.

Speaker 2: I've seen this.

I'm still trying to wrap my
head around.

What does that like, that
protocol or that system?

Word for arts.

It's basically turning an NFT
into a wallet.

Yeah, how do you use that and
make something creative of that?

I don't know yet, because if
it's just holding stuff, well,

is that interesting?

Because you can get a lot of
crap into that.

You can't stop people from
sending very tough into it.

So, yeah, we need to ask the
people at transient labs.

These guys, I mean, they're
doing amazing stuff and I've had

these really exciting
conversation with Ben about, you

know, the new mechanics of
their smart contracts and you

know I've talked to them about
the idea of the museums and the

updating stuff and they're like,
yes, we're building something

for that.

They're always experimenting,
so shout out to them.

Speaker 1: And before I joined
Schiller, ben was the first

artist I had on the podcast.

It was right when he dropped
his first transient piece like

the piece title, it's first
piece in the transient series

where he tied it to the Sun
cycle or the 24 hours Sun cycle

in the moon cycle and that you
know very similar to you know,

you guys, releasing that print
deed like very similar reaction.

When Ben created that.

It was like I was sitting on
that couch, like in that audit,

like on that Ottoman, and I like
flew out of my chair when I saw

it.

I'm like this is so fucking
cool.

Like because I I was still so
new to NFT space and it was like

, okay, what can be done here
that couldn't have been done

before?

And up to that point I hadn't
seen anything.

I'm like is, and not that, that
, not that everything up to that

point is not valuable, but I
really wanted to see, like, okay

, what clearly Can this thing
enable that hasn't been enabled

in the past?

And that's one of them.

Like you cannot code the Sun
cycle into a work of art without

NFTs.

I was like that is something
you cannot do.

It was like, yeah, pretty
fucking cool.

Speaker 2: So it's yeah yeah,
those things are.

It was super important.

Those are moments that we
should like analyze and think,

okay, this is something we
hadn't seen, we hadn't thought

about.

Sure, how can we build upon
those discoveries?

Yeah, that these guys are doing
and they have the experience

and they have the you know so
many things that they've done.

How do we build on top of that?

one and on and on, and that's I
mean a, a Fellowship were half

very techish I'm not the techish
one and the other half is

aesthetics, like how do we bring
the most amazing artists, how

do we support the most amazing
visual art and how do we build

something that Supports that
amazingness of visual arts.

You know, and again, shout out
to Fred the like the new UX that

he built with the dev team for
the post-mortographic

perspective show.

I mean, it's on spot.

It's like okay, we have the
issue of and sorry if I'm

jumping- you're good.

Speaker 1: This is actually
where I wanted to go, so I'm

glad you already went there,
yeah, cool.

Speaker 2: So, like we have
these, we have video art that

we're gonna release.

That's AI mixed with
photography and animation and

all these things, and you have
each artist with 50, 80, 25

pieces, 100 pieces.

How do you sell video without
it not being cumbersome, you

know?

And he went to the drawing
board and he created these like

Examples of how video would be
the best way to collect it, and

he built this new site that's
just impeccable.

It plays the videos, it helps
you sort them.

It was it's an experience that
I had never seen for video.

So that was something that was
built, exprofessor, for that

drop, and that is something that
we're excited about, because

it's not everything has to be
sold the same way.

You need to make mechanics so
that the collector comes in and

feels safe and Excited because
there is a simple way of how to

collect the work that you're
offering them.

You know, and that's something
that we're always pushing for,

and right from the beginning,
when we started, we called

ourselves like a Platform
agnostic, in the sense that we

weren't gonna build our own
platform.

We were gonna use whatever
existed, based on what the

content and the project needed.

So Works of art and that were
more about one-of-ones and

unique pieces.

We went to Superware for
collections.

We we were going to foundation
for a Things that didn't exist

in those platforms we built
ourselves For open see.

We go for the idea of secondary
sales.

How do we build our like hub
inside of open see so that it's

clear and people can find the
Collections and move from one

thing to the other?

So that kind of stress,
strategic in this is something

that I think has helped us and
we've been like we're just quiet

, we're just doing our thing.

You know, we're not about hype
because we don't know how to

hype.

We're about doing quality
projects that help the artist

and Help the collector, you know
, collect in the easiest way

possible.

So yeah, anyway, I don't know
where I was.

I'm rambling now.

Speaker 1: It's okay, I, we, I
like the rambles, because the

rambles where you get the
differences and the nuances of

every person, because you can
probably answer Someone can

probably answer the question the
same way but without the

tangent and without the ramble,
that's where our uniqueness

comes in, so you'll never have
to apologize that's that to me

for that.

But, um, that's really cool and
that, I think, is something

that you know when it comes to
Circle.

Back again to the first part of
this conversation, we're buying

JPEGs on a website, we're
buying things on OpenSea, we're

buying things on Super Rare.

It's not really different than
a regular website.

You know it's not, it's there's
not, I mean, but it's still.

It's a step forward.

It was modeled at least the way
I view this.

It was modeled to experience
something, to have you

experience something familiar,
and it's like the challenge is

how do you Model something that?

How do you make it easy but not
make it familiar to where we've

come from?

You know, how do we do
something different but low,

like make it comfortable, as you
said, or like make it secure To

want to do, but you're also
doing something new, I'm sure.

I Sure I could have worded that
better, but I think you

understand what I mean.

No, totally, and so I enjoy
that and like the shout out to

Fred, if he's just doing your
websites like that, it's like

seeing some of these pieces that
I've looked at, especially in

the post-photographic collection
.

That looks like he formatted
them to be like it looks like

you're looking at him in a
museum but it's on your computer

screen.

It's a really big fucking image
, you know, of the work and I'm

like, wow, like this is about,
at least right now.

This is about as close to
viewing something in a museum On

your computer that you can
really get right and I think

it's incredibly important.

So I just I can't give enough
props in for that Quest.

The question I really have is
more on the definition of post

photography.

Okay, because I've seen and I
think they make people make a

lot of valid points.

But I would love to kind of
hear, because you guys have

really championed this term like
post photography, and I've seen

a lot of photographers in the
community say we, it's not the

style that is Causing the
emotional reaction, it's the

name and the and how it relates
to the pure definition of what

photography is.

So I would kind of love because
it and I don't know if y'all

are the first to champion that
or you found it and you ran with

it, but I would kind of love to
know, as someone who's been

taking pictures for decades, you
know like, yeah, how do you

feel about that?

What were some of the
decision-making, decision-making

behind that process?

I've been very curious, sure,
sure.

Speaker 2: I mean definitely we
were, not I, nobody in the NFT

space coined that term.

This is something that has been
going on for it I don't know,

maybe 15, 20 years.

The post-photographic idea it
started in the 1980s.

Back then it wasn't called post
photography, but the essence of

it was used back then and
basically what was happening in

the 80s?

You had this group of Artists
they're called the picture

generation that we're saying we
don't need to do any more

photographs like we're done,
like there's so many images that

have been produced already up
to the 1980s that we just need

to repurpose what already exists
there.

And that sparked the whole
controversy of like then.

Like what is photography as art
?

And that sparked the
post-photographic.

Ness idea of an artist that uses
a photograph is

Post-photographic.

It's not that they're taking a
photograph, it's not that

they're.

You know me out in the world
Photographic know it's that they

understand that we as a culture
, after 160 years of living with

photography, we all have a
common language of what a

photograph is.

So let's take advantage of that
common language and let's let's

fuck things up, you know and
that's, and that started in the

1980s.

There's one like a pain point,
one specific case.

His name is Richard Prince and
he photographed the photos of

the Marlboro Cowboys.

Oh, wow.

And he said and he then printed
them large and said this is my

art, but it was clearly a
photograph of the photograph.

And it became controversial.

He was sued.

Of course he won because the
meaning of his photograph of the

photograph was not the meaning
of the original photograph for

the commercial.

And he made the point and he
was awarded the win in that case

, because it was a completely
different meaning.

You know, it was
Decontextualizing what

photography was supposed to be
doing to what he was thinking.

So that was the start of
everything of this, this shit

show that we are in today.

I started with that, with those
gestures.

You had photographers going to
museums photographing a

Photography exhibitions and then
doing the same exhibition in

private galleries and selling
the images as their own.

And they were the exactly the
same images.

It wasn't a copyright
infringement, it was.

It's a photograph of the
photograph.

This is my like.

You're putting that artwork
there.

I'm going on photographing, I'm
doing a gesture.

I'm like looking at this thing.

That's my art.

I'm looking at something that
you're wanting me to look at, so

you can't claim that I'm
copying.

You're forcing me to look at
these things.

I mean it, just.

It became a really complicated
moment and then, into that,

build digital photography.

Digital photography started the
.

You know it was An amazing feat
of technology that now,

suddenly, you can capture images
digitally.

It started in the 70s with
Kodak that invented, invented

one of the first camera digital
cameras.

But it was until the late 90s
that you can actually buy

commercial digital cameras, and
that Changed everything.

And then what changed
everything was like oh, now we

have these digital images, how
can we make them better through

the computer?

Photoshop was born and, of
course, as artists are artists,

they said I don't want to make
it better, what can I do?

What can I create that I can't
photograph?

And so they started to collage
stuff and build these fantasies

inside of these images.

That became digital photography
, and, and and another stage of

post photographicness.

And then we had, like, the
proliferation of this thing that

we have, the cell phone.

And what happened with the cell
phone was that ultra mega

democratization of photography
where everybody can take a

photograph, everybody can have
photographs, and now we have

millions of photographs every
day being produced, and for me,

that was the moment when AI was
born, in the sense of what are

we gonna do with these trillions
of images?

Let's build Machines that
Understand all those images and

know how those images were made
and know how people frame People

.

If they're gonna do a portrait,
this is the average of how

people photograph a person.

If they're gonna photograph a
house, this is the average of

how people photograph houses.

If they're gonna do a landscape
, this is the average of where

people put the horizon line.

This is the average of the time
of day that they usually do.

Basically, we create we.

The push of so many images
pushed us to create this system

that Analyzes all the excess
images that we've done in Now

hundreds of years, but mainly
with photography these past 20,

30 years.

And let's make a use of this
way, of how we've all

photographed the world.

And why even produce more
photographs when we can just

type Give me this image, because
we already did that image a

million times?

There's a hundred and a hundred
cartagena's out there who have

photographed exactly the same
way.

They're peer that, their
partner, their son.

Why even do more photographs
when you can ask a machine To

just look at that average of all
those images and create that

person for you, right?

So this is my philosophical
understanding and that was

something that I brought into
fellowship and I said, guys, we

created the situation.

Photography was, is the main
promoter of why AI exists right

now.

So it's almost like accepting
that photography was one of the

most important proponents of AI
systems.

And If it's inevitable, and
that's the way we're going, how

do we Embrace that?

And look at artists who are not
trying to make perfect images,

but who are going into, like the
people who started using

Photoshop 30 years ago and
fucking things up right, and

that's what the
post-photographic perspectives

artists are.

These are people who are not
looking to do the perfect image.

No, they're trying to use this
technology to say something that

they want to say and they're
using this tool To do the images

that they're not supposed to do
.

You know, these artists are
embracing the glitch.

These artists are embracing the
like, the creepy, weird looking

things, because they know that
they're a.

A digital camera will never
give them that.

You know, digital cameras are
perfect machines.

They expose perfectly, they
contrast perfectly.

The cell phone when you do a
picture with your cell phone, it

corrects the distortion of
color, of light.

Yeah, everything there.

It's like we're Everything that
, when it comes to doing a

photograph, is about perfection.

It's about doing the perfect
image and that's how they sell

cameras and that's how they sell
Cell phones is like oh, now you

have this camera.

It helps you take perfect
pictures in low light, perfect

pictures in the middle of the
day yeah, but what about the

imperfect imperfections?

What about those in between
moments when we're weird and

we're real humans?

And I think that's why a lot of
the artists that we're

supporting are Photographers
switching into AI, because it's

like I'm done with perfection.

I want the craziness, I want
the glitchiness, I want that

like Greeting us that you know.

That was there with film
photography and with taking

pictures and not knowing what
was gonna come out.

Because you take the picture
and you're, you know, praying to

the exposure gods that you
actually put the correct

parameters so that excellent
moment was captured correctly.

Think of it.

That's exactly the same process
as prompting.

You're Putting words into this
thing.

You have no clue what's gonna
come out.

You know, and, but you're
practicing over and over and

suddenly you kind of get a
little bit of control.

That's exactly how you learn
for film photography.

You're screwing up film after
you know, roll after roll after

roll, and suddenly you're like
oh, when it's dark, I need to,

like, put a high ISO, and blah,
blah, blah and suddenly you

start seeing images.

That's exactly the same process
I'm witnessing with a lot of

these artists that are using AI
is that they don't have control,

but they're experimenting and
trying to get to a level of

control.

And the people that we have, I
mean, they're magicians.

Honestly, I've, like, I've
tried all the different AI

models.

I have no clue how they do it.

It's just mind-blowing for me.

So I really respect them
because, you know, I give them

feedback.

It's like, oh, you know what,
like this isn't really working.

What would you consider?

Like changing this?

And it's like, yeah, I'll
change up, but deep down inside,

I'm scared that they're gonna
say fuck you, man, like you

don't know how hard it is to
produce this stuff.

But no, they're pushing it and
they're doing.

I mean, honestly, I'm I'm
amazed at what they are, they've

been able to do and, yeah,
kudos to them.

Speaker 1: I yeah, man, for real
, I mean I love that definition

because here's my before you
know.

I want to, I want to make you
laugh a little bit Because here

is my take on.

I love say, with the context, I
thanks for like, going all the

way back in history to where
this first started and this that

really helped, like because I
didn't have anything against it.

You know I, you know I'm very
left-curve when it comes to most

art.

It's like I see an image, it
makes me feel something.

I like the image, I talk about
the image, or I buy and or I buy

the image and that's that's
usually like the extent, because

, like, my art history
background is Not that deep, you

know it.

Just to fully show my cards,
like I didn't really start

getting immersed in art until
2021, you know.

So, again, very left-curved
take.

So my left curve take of what
post photography meant was what

are photographs gonna look like
when humans do not exist anymore

?

Wow, it was post, literally
post human Photography is my,

was my definition.

It's amazing.

Speaker 2: I'll actually I'll
blow your mind.

I just handed in a 800 piece
essay for a tech magazine.

It's a paper about.

It's called the photographic
era and my last part of the text

I mentioned.

Like we've been in a
photographic era for a hundred

and eighty years.

Like we've come to understand
the world through photographs,

like Medicine through
photographs.

Social media is a consequence
of photographs like, like family

albums is the early stages of
social media.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Sports.

It's become something
completely different because we

can photograph and we understand
I or dynamics of the human body

, of animals, because we were
able to freeze Crazy movement

like we had never seen before.

Anyways, photography changed
our world.

We've lived under this
Photographicness of the world

for a hundred and eighty years
and suddenly comes AI, and Right

now, the balance of the amount
of digital diarrhea that we have

is comes from digital, from
digital photographs.

We're here, you know, we're at
let's say, level 100 of digital

diarrhea of Photographs, or like
digital photographs, and we're

at level maybe five of AI images
.

In ten years, we're gonna be at
level 200 of AI generated

images, and so suddenly what we
will be looking at mainly in the

world it's not gonna be
photographs is AI images.

So what is that gonna mean?

That what we're looking at is
the average understanding of

what a landscape looks after 500
, 600 years of like,

representing landscapes, and
it's a machine popping out these

images Based on not on
photographs, not on paintings,

but on other AI images.

Like what the hell is the world
gonna look like when the Like,

the models, are gonna be trained
on other AI images and not

photographs, because we've
already consumed those 180 years

of photographs and 500 years or
a thousand years of painting

and drawing like.

Once that's done, the only new
images are gonna be AI images.

So, ai images of AI images.

I'm like, I'm not scared, I'm
just like what is that gonna

look like?

Like what does that mean?

You know we're it's gonna be a
it's.

We're gonna leave behind the
photographic era and we're gonna

come into the, the algorithmic
vision, visual era, where we're

looking at things that are
Average of how we think the

world looks like.

You know it's.

It's not even what's in front.

It's what we all think as a
society.

This is what a landscape looks
like.

That's what AI is doing for us.

It's literally telling us you
guys, you humans, you think that

a landscape looks like this.

Here you go, here's the image,
right, a car.

This is what you think a car
looks like.

You know it's averaging us and
telling us this is how you've

seen the world.

So I don't know what's gonna
happen when there's no more real

images, but just, you know,
algorithmic images to feed the

algorithm.

Speaker 1: That's fascinating,
fascinating.

So the question I have or I
guess maybe, whether I'm right

or wrong, or whatever the case
may be, there's things that I'm

definitely a purist on, and it's
like you know will there be

Room for people who still like
to make perfect images?

Because there's a.

I think humans are Not only
like.

We're obsessed with rituals as
well, and I think about a lot of

the photographers that I really
enjoy that are still making

perfect images that I really
Love.

You know what does that like?

Does that Because I'm always at
the camp, you know, of never

being an either or kind of guy
like I'm never.

I never try to.

That's usually where I default.

Like I'm, that's where I
default.

It's like my mind will always
go to a this or that situation.

It's never an and, and it
usually takes me a while to come

to an end.

But what does the world look
like?

Is it going to be?

You know that?

Will AI still need more images
of the real world as time goes

on?

So is there gonna be this like
friction that constantly pushes

one another or evolves one
another?

I guess I should say is the
right word.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, let's
say I think there's several

scenarios there might be a cap
into what images can be put into

the training models.

So if that cap becomes hard and
it's like you can only train on

images that are 2022 and back
then suddenly it'll be a dated

model, it'll feel very
particular.

We need 10 years to see the
essence of it, right, yeah, yeah

.

But if there isn't that cap,
then I don't.

I mean it'll feel fresh and
it'll, I don't know it'll.

But then there's the prompting.

And if this, if that prompt
alludes to contemporary and now

thing and things that are
happening in the now, can that

prompt force these past images
to look like present images too.

So I don't know if there's
gonna be a stop to it and,

frankly, Do you want there to be
a stop to it?

I don't know.

I mean, I'm of the mindset that
complications are good.

We already have safe places, we
already have encyclopedias, we

already have science.

We have these places where
things are what they are right.

And for me as an artist and
maybe I'm being biased here I

love complications because I
know that there's discoveries

and there's growth in the in
between moments, the uncertainty

of looking at things from a
different perspective.

Just I, that's my high as an
artist.

Like I want to be in those
moments and I want to like

champion it and support people
who are thinking in that in

between.

So I'm a bad person to ask what
I think of AI, because I'm just

gonna champion it, because I do
think that it'll address things

that we might not be able to
address otherwise.

Like honestly, like the
standardization of art is a

thing.

Like you can literally go out
into the world and find a

hundred artists that are doing
exactly the same project already

, and that's not even AI.

That's because we teach them
the same things, they read the

same books, they hear the same
podcasts, they see the same

documentaries and photographers.

So there is already a
standardization of art out there

.

We just don't want to believe
in it.

That's partly why I stopped
teaching, because I was like,

why would I teach somebody to do
exactly the same thing?

You know, it's a classroom of
40 people.

The 40 people are gonna have
this possibly the same mindset,

because I'm telling them I'm the
authority of what this thing is

supposed to be.

So I think it spawns really
important questions as to like

are we really unique?

Are we, do we really have
unique voices?

In its glitchiness and it's
like AI is a machine trying to

be an artist.

It's trying to draw things and
it fails miserably.

And in that failure, there's
some beautiful moments that are

happening.

That's exciting for me, because
it's being vulnerable, because

it can't help itself.

You know, like it can't spit
out perfect images yet, so it

has these layers of weirdness
and that's like, oh my God, like

what is that?

Like?

What does that mean?

Yeah, compared to the context
in which we're in, what does

that mean?

Can we, can I be that
vulnerable as an artist?

Can I show my failures this way
too?

I don't know.

Again, I'm very biased, because
of my background, in what I

champion as a person and as an
artist.

Speaker 1: And I ask that
because I just know from

speaking of experience, of
finding something that I enjoy

doing, that I couldn't imagine
not doing is you know you're

like you've been doing this,
you've been you found that way

before I did, and you've
continued to do it way longer

than I've been doing mine, and
so that was it was more of the

question as well, cause, like
you've, I think it's incredibly

unique and that's why I wanted
to ask you a question is cause

usually people who have done
something for decades are

incredibly threatened by
something new and disruptive.

And you're like the opposite of
threatened, you know, and like I

think that's so fucking cool
man, and like that's like I find

that incredibly unique about
you, cause you're like I looked

through your catalog and it's
like you have been doing this

for a long time, the traditional
way, and so to see someone

completely on the opposite of
the spectrum of what one would

normally assume talk about rules
, of you know, of what you would

typically expect, I find that
incredibly fascinating.

So you know, the question is
like will you continue to create

perfect images yourself
alongside this new technology?

Speaker 2: Definitely.

I mean, there's space for both
and that's again why there's no

sensation of threat.

It's more of a we come back to
this word experience.

I've understood that certain
type of images create certain

type of stories and now I'm just
giving a new option of

different types of images to
create new types of stories.

And you know, I'm living
vicariously through the artists

that we're supporting at
fellowship cause.

I don't have the time to like
create stuff with AI right now.

But when I see something that I
like I wish I was doing, I'm

gonna champion them, I'm gonna
support them, I'm gonna help

them find that voice, cause
they're tapping into something

that is really cool and exciting
.

So, like one of the artists,
frank Manzano, he's doing the

video art.

I mean, dude, the first time I
saw that I was like where has

this guy been?

Like he could not gotten there
out of the blue.

But, like I did research, I'm
like no, he was like in, like

he's been doing.

He's like he's been in video
and cinema, like he understands

that language, but AI impulsed
him to do things on his own that

he had never been able to do
before.

And I instantly recognize
somebody who was being grateful

for the opportunity to create
something that he couldn't

otherwise create.

And you smell that.

You just know that somebody is
like this is something that is

enabling me to go to places that
I could never go before.

And Frank is just like I've had
so many conversations with him,

yes, about AI, but mainly about
the possibilities of creating,

like, complete stories and
stories like never before with

this technology, and it's just.

I mean, what can I say?

I'm just, yeah, I'm just super,
super excited just to see that.

And I've, like I used to teach a
lot.

I taught in university, I gave
workshops worldwide and I saw

thousands of students and it's
very rare that you find somebody

who has a voice and is just
doing it because they're just

excited to do you know, that's
it.

They can't help themselves and
I mean, all the artists are like

that.

But for me, Frank is like whoa,
like this dude, like he's so

grateful for the support, for
the conversations, for the

feedback.

He's like I thought that nobody
was like looking Like he was in

his bubble doing these crazy
videos.

Where did you find Frank
Instagram?

I found him on Instagram.

Okay, yeah, randomly, just like
it popped up on my feed.

I don't use Instagram that much
, but I went in there and it was

like it was there and at first,
like I was reaching out and

silence, silence.

And I'm telling the team like
guys, man, this guy is like this

is amazing, this is it, and I'm
messaging and I'm like I wanna

be you know, don't sound too
desperate that he has something

that's just-.

Speaker 1: As a podcaster for
three years that interviews

people, I get it dude.

It's like how do I show
interest but not-.

Speaker 2: Nonchalance yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How do I nonchalantly be really
like convincing that you need

to be?

I don't want to like you to
think that I want you like, I

want you to want to be here,
like this needs to be your idea.

Speaker 2: Yes yes, so I did
exactly that and you know, at

first it was serial
conversations about NFTs, it was

about the work itself, like I
was telling him how he took me

back to the 1980s and the arcade
time and these like very simple

images and the ideas of
violence in images and movies,

and we just chatted and chatted
and then I'm like dude, like you

know, I run this program.

I would encourage you to submit
work.

He's like ah, you know he works
in a, like he.

I can't completely dox him, but
he's like he works in a

completely different industry
and he's like you know, I'm like

really busy.

I'm like you know I can help
you.

You know, try to like the
submission, because it was a

submission form.

He's like dude, if you want to
do it, I'm okay with that.

And I went and I helped him
with like this is what you need.

That, that, that, that that I
would suggest you submit these

images, these videos.

He's like, okay, I'll do it.

And boom, he sent it.

And you know the process for
the selection committee we had,

I think it was 10, 12 people and
he was one of the top picks of

a hundred and plus people.

So that for me was confirmation
.

Okay, I wasn't it wasn't.

I'm not alone on this, it wasn't
just me, and I went back to him

and said hey, frank, look, all
these people love your work.

And he's like really.

Like like dude, you were
selected among a hundred people

and then he got hooked and then
he like, he's like, okay, let's

like, what do you need from me,
alex?

Like let's do this.

And then he started sending me
stuff, and he started sending me

music and I mean, anyways,
we're spending too much time on

him.

But that kind of moment is
something that I long for

because that helps me still feel
that I'm being productive as an

artist, because I'm bringing
all of these, all this

experience that I've built doing
my own work, to help foster

other people find their voice.

So I'm going to pursue doing
perfect images and, you know,

doing photography, because,
again, there are stories you

can't, you cannot tell with
another medium and I like to

tell those stories.

So I'm still publishing books.

I published six books last year
.

Wow, I have more books coming
out.

Maybe not this year because I'm
really busy, but the year after

that I still have solo shows,
that I'm doing art fairs with my

work.

So I have this parallel life of
my art that is happening side

by side with being a promoter
and a curator, with fellowship.

Speaker 1: That's incredible,
man, I mean.

And congratulations on getting
into the San Francisco MoMA, by

the way, Dude that is.

Speaker 2: I mean, museums are
dinosaurs.

They move very slowly, very
slow.

They're fast dinosaurs, but
they are the big herbivore

slow-moving entities.

We started the conversation, I
think, almost like a year ago,

and one of the things that, like
, I met with them in San

Francisco.

I talked to the conservation
department, to the new media

department, the photography
department, the contemporary art

like everybody was interested,
like you have to go through all

these filters, and one of the
first questions was like, why

would the museum want to collect
an NFT?

And you know, for me, the point
I made to them is these images

that you'll collect specifically
have internet value.

They've circulated hundreds of
thousands of times through the

web.

They've accured something that
we were talking before

circulation value.

They are important to the
internet culture that exists of

our digital world and for that,
that is something important to

collect, because this is the
source of what I told you, of

all of those copies that are
circulating through the internet

.

But now the original digital
object is in a museum.

This is the source of all that
culture that is being built.

This is what you're protecting
into the future.

That object has accured value
through different posts on

Instagram, facebook websites,
anything digital.

Where does that value signal to
the piece in the SF moment

that's, and they're like oh,
that makes sense.

We are an institution that is
protecting art and culture into

the future.

For people to analyze, what
does this object mean?

Well, yes, it's aesthetic, it's
beautiful, this image is great,

but it also represents a
culture that we've built in the

last 40 years of sharing and
reproducing images digitally.

So that is what caught them and
that's why they said OK, let's

do it.

But it takes a year, or a
purchase sometimes to come

through Wow.

Speaker 1: That's incredible,
man, and I often wondered.

I haven't heard the definition
of what museums actually do.

I just I knew they stored art,
but, and I knew that the art

that I was looking at was
significant to culture, but I

don't think personally, I've
really understood it in the

definition of a museum's job is
to protect culture into the

future.

Exactly, I've never heard it
like that.

So thank you for sharing that
definition Once you introduce

that new perspective, because I
can imagine.

Obviously they do move really
slow and they are masters of the

physical realm.

Yes, you can't deny that.

That's like their bread and
butter, it's what they do, and

I'm really enjoying the
curiosity of not just the San

Francisco Monument but all of
the museums and auction houses

taking an interest in digital
objects, because it's a whole.

It's a new world and if we look
at, we have never, we have not

gotten more analog as the years
have gone on.

So it's probably an easy
assumption, now that we have a

few decades, or at least one or
two decades of digital work, if

not a little longer, to say, hey
, it's a reasonable assumption

that you need to now become the
masters of digital work as well.

Agreed.

Speaker 2: Pretty reasonable.

It's totally reasonable and
it's inevitable.

Speaker 1: I mean, we've built
this.

That's a better word for it.

Speaker 2: We've built digital
culture.

It's part of who we are as
human beings, and to not look at

that and consider, ok, what
objects have been important to

that digital culture of the last
30, 40 years, it's kind of

weird that they wouldn't do that
.

So I think they're opening up
to that and you'll see more and

more museums jumping, not for
the craze of it, but because of

the importance of it.

And we need the resources that
they have to build the essays

and the research of why this is
important, because if we do it,

it's hype.

If they do it, it becomes
reasoning, it becomes it's

contextualizing something that
we are so inside of it that we

can't really put words to it.

But there they can do it from
the outside, because their

perspective is why is this
important?

That is the question.

And they have their researchers
, they have their writers, they

have their curators.

They are going to do that job
to say why digital objects are

important.

Speaker 1: So it's important for
that path to be built into the

future, when you're in your as
we wrap things up, man you're

touching on.

I've asked a few people the
question of what role do auction

houses and museums play in this
digital art movement?

And it's been the constant,
it's always to the same way, in

one way or another, that they
serve as the bridge between both

worlds.

I think it's incredibly
important because they have a

century of experience with
collecting art and selling art

and just dealing art Everything
that has to do with the physical

realm and they have a very
large collector base that

probably is a little curious and
waiting on.

That needs their validation
before some of the older money

can come into the newer art.

And then you have this whole
thing, which I think I love the

way you put it, and I think web
three really exacerbated it

which this was built by a group
of people.

This was like this was not, it
wasn't coordinated, it just

happened.

And whether it's through just
posting digital art on Instagram

or Flickr or Tumblr, it all, I
think I especially since I came

into web three like it's really
easy just to forget about.

It's almost like it almost
feels like an extinction event,

where it's like pre NFTs, you
know, or it's like you know what

was life like without these.

But that's the way I often kind
of hit a roadblock when I look

in the past.

It's like, okay, nothing
existed before 2021.

Well, it's like that's a bunch
of bullshit, because it's just

not true, but that's the way it
feels.

So I think having that
definition of saying like, even

going back to post photography,
like we did this, you know, this

was as a result of a lot of
pictures being taken.

This was the digital art
movement.

Why it's important in museums
is a result of all the images

being uploaded online the social
Currency, the social value, the

I can't remember the way you
put it, but it was probably

better than me, you know,
because you convinced the San

Francisco moment.

So I'm gonna, we're just gonna.

This is your podcast, so it's,
it's.

It just seems like an
accumulation and something

that's inevitable and I think
that, yeah, there's obviously

reason to be concerned for a lot
of like transformative

technology.

There's a lot of things that
can be done wrong with it, but

just like the, it's just like
the internet, in my opinion,

like I think this is, I think in
terms of Significance and we

can we'll wrap this up here
because I know you have to go.

But in terms of significance,
ai and and like I mean even just

AI alone almost feels as
significant as the internet,

like as a whole.

That's whether people can argue
that we're not, but like it

Feels like it's going to
completely transform even the

internet as we know it, and it
already has.

So I view it as of same
importance.

Blockchain's a way to validate
it.

I think blockchain's really
fucking cool.

Obviously it's why we're here.

We are either delusional or
we're like complete idiots.

You know for being here at this
point, because there is no

incentive to be here right now.

When you look, if you look from
the outside, I say that there

is, but if you look at it from
the outside common perspective,

this does not look appealing,
right?

Look what?

Speaker 2: we're doing.

Oh yeah, I mean, I agree with
you in on many levels on that,

and yet I'll piggyback to what I
said experience.

We're coming at least the team
At fellowship.

We come from many years of
problems and struggling with how

to sell art, how to do art, how
to support artists, and this

isn't the perfect solution, but
it is one solution that we had

never tried before, sure, and it
works to some extent, to some

level, and why not keep trying?

Because it definitely there's
no, no government funding that's

gonna solve.

Artists, you know, need to keep
producing art because they

can't help themselves.

So, again, it's a perfect match
to the accumulation of

experience that we have as a
team in the art world and Seeing

the value and just the
sophisticated ways to solve a

Problem.

That is gonna be there with or
without web3.

So a web3 right now stands as a
really interesting Model and

opportunity and we're just
trying to build the solution so

that it exists in Both worlds.

To be honest, like it's the
type of Art that we promote and

that we try to sell, the type of
like Initiatives that we do,

these would work also in the
traditional art world.

That is something that is
really important for us like a.

We get into museums because
we're offering work that is that

would be valuable with or
without NFTs.

We get into art fairs because
it's work that will be valuable

with or without NFTs, and that
is something that we want to

keep backing is like it's not
hype art.

If this is art, art that is
gonna stand the passing of time.

So we might get it wrong
sometimes, because that's the

nature of things, sure, but we
most of the time try to find and

focus on Things that are
valuable with or without web3.

It's just great art to support.

Speaker 1: Love it, man.

I couldn't picture, I couldn't
imagine a more perfect ending,

so I think we'll you put a bow
on it there.

Nicely done, awesome.

Yeah Well, 100.

This has been fantastic.

This is one of those
conversations I think I'd like

to have another hour, but I know
we don't have that.

So I want to thank you for your
time.

This has been great.

I knew when we had our first
phone calls like this is just

gonna be like so much fun.

So thank you again for spending
your time with me.

It's two hour chunk with
someone that has many

responsibilities, as you do, is
probably not easy to manage.

So I do thank you for doing
that and would love to like you

know, I think give you like.

It's like if people were to
find your work, like if people

want to get in contact you with
you.

Where do you want people to go?

And also feel free to share,
like we'd love to like any

upcoming projects that you're
working on, that you're excited

about, or that fellowships
working on or excited about.

Yeah, we'd like, like love to
open that up a little bit more

to you.

Speaker 2: Sure, thank you.

I mean it was an instant, a
connection man, that first phone

call.

Yeah, we were vibing it
definitely.

I Think that conversation
actually made me feel that I've

been in the space for a good
amount of time and I kind of

think I know what I'm doing at
this stage.

So thank you for making me feel
old and a little bit that I've

done things.

Anyways you're welcome.

Yeah, if you want to.

I mean, email Is a is a the
best way to get in contact with

me.

I have many things running at
the same time, so please be

patient.

Twitter, dms, discord.

Projects that are coming right
now the post-photographic

perspectives that's our main
focus.

We launched July 10th video
still images and then after that

we have I can't spill the beans
on this, but we have an I know

amazing project.

It's a historical a project.

We yeah, it's gonna be amazing,
cool, but that's coming very

soon.

We're doing a documentary with
Gregory Crutzen.

Speaker 1: Let's go yeah
photographer.

Speaker 2: We're releasing His
body of work called Twilight and

we built something around that,
and and then we're preparing

for peri photo art fair.

That's like the biggest
photography art fair in the

world.

It's been running for decades
now and we got a slot there.

We're bringing Joel Meyerowitz
and the rope reynist, so AI, wow

.

Yeah, yeah, that's like we're
super excited about that.

Yeah, and we have a solo show,
a for rope, also in Sardinia in

Italy, opening next week.

That's amazing.

We just got previews of the
they're 20 200 centimeter Prints

.

They're just I mean, they're
taller than Fred.

He's there installing the show.

They're just mind-blowing.

So, yeah, we're, we'll continue
to build stuff that you know

have a feat in in both worlds.

Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean, that's enough
, that's plenty for yeah.

Speaker 1: That's plenty.

Well, again, man, I'll hundred.

Thank you so much for coming on
.

This has been a treat and I'm
sure we'll have many more of

these and I look forward to sure
.

Thank you, you're welcome.

Just hang out one moment so it
finishes uploading and then

we'll.

We'll get you out of here, man.

Thank you for joining us on
another fantastic episode of the

Schiller curated podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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Until next time.

This is Boone signing off.