Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the Shiller

Curated podcast.

This week's guest is Brooke
DiDonato, a lens-based artist

whose work can best be described
as surreal, thought-provoking

and often poke fun at the human
condition.

In this episode, we talk about
how she stages her shots,

emotions around being featured
at Christie's Doction House, how

technology is brought us closer
together and the role self-care

plays into her creative process
.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to get comfy and
relax into this conversation

with Brooke.

All right, cool, gm, brooke,
how are you?

Speaker 2: Hello, I am doing
well.

How are you?

Speaker 1: I'm doing pretty good
myself.

I think it's staying like
you're a local.

I know you're a local Austinite
as well, so I imagine you're

probably like me and not doing a
whole lot of things that

involve being outside.

Speaker 2: That is true, that is
true.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty
brutal.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like I
mentioned to you this morning.

One of my lofty ambitions for
the day was to go out at like 7

am and bike before it turned
into 100 degrees, but I've

missed marks.

So now I'm just over
caffeinating and going to have a

nice chat with you.

That's sort of the trade-offs.

It's not a bad trade-off.

It's not a bad trade-off.

Speaker 1: Really, some things
are on the same wavelengths.

But yeah, I'm not trying to do
anything outside, so I'm glad

that you're comfy, caffeinated.

Yeah, let's start with your
trip to New York.

How was that?

Speaker 2: It was good.

It was actually not a work trip,
which was nice.

My partner's parents were
visiting from Australia so we

did a bunch of super touristy
things, which was really nice.

We actually saw I think it's
pronounced prima facie, I think

it's that Jodi Comer, isn't it?

It's about sort of like a
one-woman show.

She's the only actress in it,
she I'm pretty sure she won a

Tony for it, but it's like she
plays this barrister and it's

sort of she starts dating one of
her colleagues and then it's

sort of sexually assaulted and
then kind of has to go through

the legal system and as somebody
who's not working, and so it's

kind of like this crazy journey.

But it was so good.

I was just like oh, maybe, I
don't know there's something to

theater that is really
interesting, I think, especially

thinking about the way even
that I work, where it's like

they sort of do so much with so
little.

There's just sort of one set
and the set is just used over

and over again.

As the viewer you kind of have
to imagine there's a lot of

nuance in it.

I don't know, I don't know.

I was just so impressed by it.

That was a highlight of the
trip, to be honest, because it

was like just like her
performance was unreal.

I was sort of like, oh, how is
this going to be interesting to

have one?

Like.

I truly could not entertain
people for 20 minutes on stage.

I was just like I wouldn't even
know where to begin.

So that was very cool.

And just the set design they had
it raining on stage, which I

was super into.

I was like, oh, can I make it
rain in my bedroom?

What devisions do they use to
do that?

But yeah, theater, this is very
cool.

And just the idea that you
can't cut it.

You're not going to cut it in
Photoshop or you can't be like,

oh, we'll run that back and use
a little bit of take one and a

little bit of take two.

It's like no, like, if Jody
Comer misdelivers a line, I'm

going to hear it, we'll let him
fence it.

So, yeah, hopefully I
pronounced the name right.

But anyway, if anyone's in New
York and you want to see

something really great, I would
recommend it.

I thought it was so good.

So, yeah, we just did a lot of
touristic things and that was

really fun.

And I spent all my 20s in New
York and I really fell off with

doing a lot of those things like
going to museums and stuff,

because it was not like.

it's like I think probably a lot
of New Yorkers don't go to the

bet every Wednesday or whatever.

So it was like fun to sort of
like see all those things again.

And yeah, I actually just
missed the super rare opening.

That was like a mistake on my
part.

I left like the day before
accidentally, but that looked

good and Ben sent me some photos
from it, like posing with my

piece.

So you know it's like bummed to
miss that, but cool to see the

pictures.

Speaker 1: You can always count
on a good Ben pose for something

.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: I was going to make.

See, he like pose.

I don't know if you saw it, but
he's like laying on the floor

with his feet like under my
piece, like he's trying to like

mimic the pose from the pillow
image and I like texted my

friend back and I was like his
hamstrings look tight.

He was like thanks.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think he did
one of those with his y'all I

think I didn't see that one, but
I saw the one he did with his

own piece and he like was doing
like an upward dog kind of like

pose, oh yeah, and I was just
like I was like backs everywhere

, hate him or something like
that, backs everywhere.

Speaker 2: Hate him, that's fine
yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: To be fair, my
hamstring saved me after that

photo.

Speaker 1: So it was not did not
come with ease certainly.

So with that specific shot,
like how do you I've always been

curious about you know how you
get something like that, like

how many people were involved
with that specific shot, and

like how did that come to like,
how did that just come to be?

Speaker 2: Yeah, that one's
actually.

That one's really just me like
for a lot of the more commercial

stuff and like even, even, just
like, I have like two pieces

I'm working on right now that
I'm like working with a sort of

like on a crew of people, but
that one's a bit of like, I

guess like a callback to like my
early work, where it really was

just like you know always just
me.

The sort of like long version of
this story, since we have time,

is that my partner like just
like got this new apartment in

Ridgewood in Queens and
basically we were kind of like

shopping around for furniture
and we found this little couch

and she was like, oh my God,
it's like so cute.

It was like listed for I think
it was like $800 or something,

and it was like that's bananas
Like it's like a love seat you

know, and that's not a couch.

And so then a couple of days go
by and the store I mean you have

to do that, though, in New York
, to be fair, because it's like

you know they have to like
source it and drive it to you,

like if they're probably going
to deliver it.

Speaker 1: it's like I mean, I
get it, whatever, but anyway.

Speaker 2: So the vintage shop
like then posted it the next day

and they were like it's on sale
, and.

But it didn't say much.

And I was like hmm.

And so I messaged, I DM them
from my Instagram and I was like

, hey, how much is this on sale
for Cause?

Like my girlfriend's interested
in it.

And they were like, well, it's
on sale for like this price, but

like you do a photo with it we
could do like this price.

And I was like what I was like
this has never happened to me.

I was like honestly, I was
going to do a photo with it, but

like you want to give me a
discount or that.

I was like this is like what
people imagine.

I think having a blue check
gets you, but it's actually

never gotten me that.

So I was like have I made it
Like rough?

I've been like just offered a
discount.

It's like insane.

So yeah, so we got the cash
delivered and then I tried to

shoot with it Like a couple of
times, but I like really wasn't

like.

I just like wasn't getting.

Like I really loved those
pillows and I wanted to do

something with them, but I
didn't want to.

Just I had this other photo
called 10 stages of grief.

It's just like 10 pillows pile
like on top of me and I didn't.

I didn't want it to feel it like
I just did that again.

I definitely wanted it to feel
just I don't know like a bit

more dynamic, and I started
doing yoga in January.

I truly probably couldn't have
even done this photo had I not

started, because I have like
gnarly tight hamstrings.

But just being consistent with
that has like helped, just like

with my strength and then also
just like flexibility.

And so I kind of just like had
this idea and after I did a

couple of test days, like I
would kind of like every morning

around the same time I'd like
set up my tripod and just like

attach my self timer on my phone
and basically just like try a

bunch of things.

And then there was like one day
where I finally settled on this

image, but I ended up having to
or this, this concept anyway,

but then I had to sort of like
move the couch and like perfect

the lighting and yeah, I'm
probably good like two or three

test days and then I shot the
final image and that was that.

Speaker 1: I I've been doing
yoga a little bit too, where I

think, like, in this specific
pose, we do this every single.

You know, we do this like every
single class and I I don't know

if it's because I have tight
hamstrings as well or because,

like, I'm just fearful of like
bending my neck in a way it

shouldn't be bent yeah, like it
and it's.

It's the fear is like crippling
to do that.

So it's cool to like see the
evolution of that.

It's like if that's something
you wouldn't have been able to

do with without doing yoga.

Speaker 2: I mean, you know,
maybe I don't know, maybe I'm

not doing myself enough credit.

It's like maybe I could have
done it before yoga, but I do

think that, like I do think that
I probably would have like

injured myself is the better,
like it's like I could have done

it, but at what cost?

Speaker 1: you probably, you
probably could have right.

I'm like, at least in a during
a time like this where, you know

, obviously, like we were
talking about this a little

earlier there's just not many
things fruitful happening in our

world on the timeline, you know
.

So I'm like, okay, what can I
be doing outside of Twitter that

adds value to my life, that I
can bring to my craft, you know,

and yoga is like one of them.

It's like, okay, well, what are
some of the unhealthiest habits

that I formed in 2021?

It's like well you know, like I
stopped going to the gym I a

good night asleep with six hours
, you know and my whole identity

became NFTs and I was just like
fuck, who am I?

Speaker 2: outside yeah.

Speaker 1: Right, Like I think
it's.

I think it's great, though,
because I found it.

You know, it's like we all find
a community that we love and we

want to spend a lot of time,
and, you know, this community is

a full of a bunch of magical
internet friends that I didn't

know I was missing.

So I think it's natural, but
I'm all about not being here as

often and finding what it is and
having a lot of fun, you know,

like with things that like have
nothing to do with NFTs, you

know.

Speaker 2: I mean, you know it
doesn't work for for like some

people do prefer to just sort of
like fully you know like fixate

on one thing and sort of like,
just like grind it out kind of

thing, but I think like I found,
you know, something I really

like about yoga is that sort of
leave everything at the door

kind of thing, where it's just
sort of like you don't.

It's actually like fine to do
nothing, Like, if you want to

lay on your mat and just breathe
, that would be okay and I

really love that.

Yeah, Because it's sort of like
, to be honest, it's just like

help my brain quite a lot to
just be like actually I'm not

going to force myself to like
make a photo today just because,

like I can like I'm actually
just not going to do that.

And I'm going to like read or
like I'm going to just like do

something else that like perhaps
later will inform some kind of

like idea, but also like maybe
won't, and that would also be

fine.

You know, like one of the pieces
that I'm that I've been working

on recently is like it's
honestly it's inspired by a few

different things, but like one
of the things that really like

it's like sort of loosely based
on is that trail that I told you

about that I like really love
biking and just like I'll go out

for like two hours usually and
like last year was just like

super tough for me and I feel
like at the beginning of this

year I kind of started like
cycling again and I was on the

trail at one point and like this
butterfly just landed on my

hand and I was like, oh my God,
I have arrived to my life.

You know, like I like sort of
like I am back, you know, and I

saw you sort of silly, but I
really was like super touched by

that and like this idea that
like this feeling of just like

being like you were, like you
were somewhere else, like you're

just like a body, like flipping
through the world or something

and just starting to feel like I
guess, like reinvigorated with

like things that I had enjoyed
in years prior.

I don't know, you know, but
it's not like I didn't go out on

the trail because I was like I
need to be inspired and like

make NFTs and like whatever.

And I'm not saying I'm not
saying that you obviously, like

you can also go search for
inspiration, but I do think that

, like, maybe that's just the
place.

The phase I'm in right now is
I'm just sort of like I'm going

to do things that like make me
feel good, because if I feel

good, I will ultimately like
feel inspired to.

Speaker 1: Right, I want to.

I'm curious with you because
this is definitely I've been

noticing like that with me where
I was between and they both,

they both came to me in like
different messages and different

styles and like, but you know,
like the my parents generation

and I think we're close to the
same age but like probably I

think we are.

I remember that over when we
had coffee, but like our it's

like the previous generation,
where it's just like you didn't

really get to it wasn't often to
marry happiness with what feeds

me, you know, or like what puts
with what puts food on the

table.

You.

It usually was like an either
or kind of thing and that was

always impressed upon me as a
kid, not written it, whether it

was directly or indirectly.

You know, it's just the way
it's for the for 99.9% of the

world.

That's kind of how it was.

And I also look at the kind of
like the Web 2 hustle culture

kind of movement that happened
and I think those two form this

like perfect storm where it was
like even if, like, if I stop,

I'm going to become irrelevant,
you know, or if I like I, you

know, don't do this.

It kind of like I'm touching on
, like what you were talking

about earlier, like, even though
you could create a photo, you

just don't, and like I think
there's something magical in

letting that be and just kind of
like not indulging that

whatever, whether it's the ego,
whether it's I don't know

whether, whatever he called
whatever that is it's kind of

like ignoring that, and you know
, has that been?

You know, like, at least for me
, like that's been something

I've had to like be okay with,
like letting go of.

It's like okay.

Well, man, imagine if I
actually did things that like I

enjoyed.

There's this fear of like
forgetting.

It's like what if I enjoy this
so much that I just forget about

whatever it is that I'm doing
and I just like don't do it

anymore?

Do you ever like get that fear?

I don't know if that makes
sense, but like where it's like,

oh my God, if I just like let
go of this fixation, it's

actually going to be okay, you
know?

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: I guess there's.

It's like some sort of like
balance, maybe like somewhere in

the middle, where it's like I
mean I really like love drawing

and painting and like collage
and stuff when I was in high

school and like I did sort of
like.

It was like you know, like
advanced placement art my senior

year, and it was like for
college credits I wanted to go

to art school and so I was like
really creative, like when I was

like 17 and 18, like I was just
like making, like painting and

just like making stuff all the
time, and that was like when I

first picked up a camera.

But then, like I went to college
and I feel like I got like so

overwhelmed with like just like
the structure of the classes and

like the deadlines and stuff
and just sort of like being in

like these huge like I was like
in I think one of my classes had

, like you know, like 150 people
in it and I was just like whoa

like, and I fully like didn't
make or do anything creative for

like over a year.

And I remember like going into
this, like intro photography

class was like one of my
professors and he was kind of

like hey, what are you doing
here?

Like, just sort of like, do you
need to take some time off?

And I was like no, like I don't
need to take time off, I've

already taken like a year and a
half off.

And like I like actually got
super worked up and I kind of

like started tearing up to him
which I was also just

embarrassed because I was like I
don't even know this guy, but I

was like I used to be like so
creative and I remember telling

him that, being like I used to
be so creative and like I feel

like I lost it.

And he was kind of like, well,
maybe you need to like take time

off.

And I was like, no, you don't
get it Like I've already done

that.

That's how I lost it, like I
was like that's how I that's how

.

I lost it so I can't take more
time off and I don't know.

And so then I started like I
guess, like I started like

taking photos again and like
trying to write again and like

do all these things that I like
love doing that like kind of fed

me and like high school, and I
think it did take a while to

like get back and rid them with
it.

Like I do think there's like
something to practicing, you

know or like, but I don't know
that it has to come in the form

of like output.

I think, like even what we're
talking about, it's like for me,

like yoga or like cycling, or
like going to a museum, like

just doing things that like I
want to do, and I think it's

like sort of like creating space
for me to feel creative later.

Even if it's not, I don't know,
you know, but it's like.

I think that, like people do get
obsessed with like output, you

know, and sort of like you know
to a degree, like I do

understand that it's like I
started freelancing in like 2016

.

It's, you know, it's like it's
not an easy game, like there is

sort of like I have to pay my
bills and that doesn't like go

away.

Like you know, it's like even
now, having done it for as long

as I have, I'm not like there
are components of that hustle

that don't stop, I guess.

But I guess what I was going to
say is like there's also like

to sort of flip that idea like
on its head a bit.

It's like scarcity is like also
beautiful.

You know, like there is a finite
Amount of work that I can make

per year.

So it's like the amount of
images that I made in 2019 was

like not many because like I was
having a bad time that year and

like same thing in like other
years, and it's like that's part

of that narrative.

Now it's sort of like there's
something to that.

It's like, you know, you can't
just like go download like new

Virginia Woolf writing like you.

Just you can't just go do that.

Like there's scarcity to that
and I don't know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, and I
think that, though I wonder if

he relates to this but at least
for me, part of that, I think I

think like kind of being put
through that grinder though, is

like kind of a ride of passage
stuff.

I think it's something that
like when you know kind of

embark, as you mentioned, like
you know being a being a full

time freelance or being a full
time creative, you know like

what does that even mean?

I think that I also equate it's
like riding a bike, you know,

like it's one of the, it's one
of the things that, like I, when

I would, before I became full
time in Web three, it was like I

was, I was like an account
manager, slash, like business

coach, and I would tell people,
like when they would come

through the door, they would get
so worried about like not

having it all figured out.

You know, like about how, like
they, just like they had this

goal, they had the end goal in
mind, which is something that a

lot of people don't have, or a
end goal, or like some sort of

dream, but they expected to be
there tomorrow, you know, and so

I think, at least for me, I had
something similar where it was

just like I just put, I just put
myself through it to try to

like, get to that spot faster.

But I think in doing so I just I
realized what was necessary and

what wasn't necessary and like,
okay, maybe I need to, maybe

these behaviors are good, but
the level of obsession, um, you

know, all the time, even when
I'm not doing this, just doesn't

need to be there.

You know, and I think it, but I
but I also don't regret it

because it was like I would have
not Got into the spot that I

had without going through that.

But it's just kind of like the
bull market, it's just not, it's

like bull market energy, you
know it's not sustainable.

It's.

It's completely unsustainable.

To like try to do that all the
time, like producing podcasts.

You know, working a full-time
job, you know, like for multiple

years on on end, like on a
weekly basis, was really hard,

but it wouldn't have gotten me
to the point where I could have

now had the space to like relax
and like yeah.

Do a little bit more things
that are good for me, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like
kind of wait just to sort of

like piggyback on what you just
said.

It's like, yeah, like having
sort of like a year where it's

just like I'm gonna get a
Commissioned projects and like

going out and doing that for a
year, it's like that's a good

goal, you know, it's sort of
like.

I Think it's like it's good to
have goals.

I mean, you can't obviously
like you know there has to be

like some structure.

But I do think that like being
like goal obsessed is sort of

like yeah, I don't know, it's
like not.

It's sort of like defeats the
purpose of like Making art.

I don't know, it's like art is
like an expression of something,

it's not like a goal, and so
it's sort of like you're not

sitting with like your feelings
or like you're sort of like what

you're trying to say.

It's sort of like what?

What are you doing?

I don't know.

Like what are you?

What perspective are you
expressing?

Are you just Expressing, like,
the desire to like make more

money, like that's fine?

Speaker 1: That's a perspective.

Speaker 2: But like you're gonna
still need to dial into that,

you know totally.

I mean, yeah, it's.

Speaker 1: It's all because and
I think we're also, you know,

we're kind of in the middle of
it slash growing out of it, I

don't know.

I so I so think we have a
little ways to go, but it's like

I know that the incentives that
we have to to do this are not

really healthy.

You know, like I think
Instagram, early Instagram days,

like an early social media days
, it's just like output, output,

output, output, output, output.

You know, it's like it was kind
of like a lot of people that

were there.

It's like we're kind of it's
kind of like victims of this

like system.

That's like okay, if you want
to do this is how you do it.

Yeah and you have to.

You kind of have to like, just
this is, this is the rules that

are written.

Yeah, you know.

But have you noticed, like in
the process of that, like you

know, kind of, when we're on the
subject of letting some of that

go, do you Do you, do you kind
of know that?

Do you think part of that has
to do with, like, how much

you've evolved, like having a?

Do you think, like through that
, like letting go of some of

that kind of just hustle
mentality has to do with, like

you, gaining a lot more
confidence in your outputs?

Speaker 2: I mean, I've always
had like a sort of like keep my

eggs and a lot of baskets
approach and like NFTs has not

changed that.

For me it's been Really great
because I sort of Know that

there is like An outlet for like
my personal work.

So it's like you know, even
like the pillow photo, like I

would make that pillow photo no
matter what, but it's sort of

like oh, this could someone may
want to collect this now, and

it's sort of like I can skip
over like the gallery component

and just go straight to the
collector and so like that's

like Super exciting, but it
doesn't.

I Guess it's like I have like I
sell posters on Instagram for,

like you know, my profit on them
is like $35 a pop, but I'm sort

of like that's okay because I'm
gonna sell a lot of them and

it's like that.

Gonna pay like I don't have to
like put all my I don't have to

be like, oh, like my NFTs aren't
selling, like what the hell

like this market is like crazy
because it's like no, I'm gonna

like sell prints and like People
are excited about that, like

when I was in college, like I
had posters of people's work but

I like that on my walls and I'm
like I'm not like a big time

like art collector but it
doesn't mean I don't want to

collect art.

And so like I think like
Considering these different

markets of people, like the 101
NFTs, like those are exclusive

but like having additions, like
having like print sales, like I

also like license my work for
different things, like those I

could be like book covers I just
didn't one that was like

somebody reached out about like
a, actually like a theater

production it's going on in like
Brussels and it's like you know

those things aren't like Not
this on 10 grand or something

you know.

But it's like a few hundred
dollars and it's like those

things add up and they take the
pressure off of these.

It's like an ecosystem and each
one of these things takes

pressure off the other thing.

And so I've always like sort of
like I guess not always.

I think at one point I did
navigate my career a bit more

like with what you're saying,
rose.

I just need to like Get like a
huge Instagram following and I

just need to like grind it,
grind and grind until I have

that, and then it's like Well, I
have that now Do I make a

living on Instagram?

No, it's not really what I
thought it would be.

Is it like still great to have
the audience?

Sure, of course it is.

But I think like seeing these
different, you know things is

sort of like all working in
tandem rather than like One,

putting all that pressure on
like one component of your

career.

It's like too much.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I see a lot of
artists doing that right now.

You know where it's like.

I think people were like often
sold on in the in the 21, I

think, in the bull run, where
it's like there was just People

were spending a lot of money on
a lot of things.

You know, and I think that the
even the common you know Saying

that I heard was just like.

You know, it's like being
full-time in Web 3 and it's like

that's like what a lot of
people's goals were, you know,

and some people probably made a
lot of money by like really

throwing all their eggs in one
basket.

But it's like now, when there's
when you know certain collectors

are leaving, other collectors
are being more selective, you

know it's like, well, how does?

And you just see a lot of that
starting to be expressed, you

know, and it's it's kind of sad.

And you know I want to take it a
little bit of a different

direction, just because I think
you know, having experience

showing in auction houses, you
know, especially like the one

that I got to go to at At
Christie's, that was really cool

, you know, even though I was,
it was it was a fun event

because it was like Web 3 was
just it's such a mixed bag of

people that showed up there,
addressed all different types of

ways, and you gave me an excuse
to buy a really fancy suit, so

I appreciate that.

But being having shown work
there versus also being really

successful with like one of one
collectors and having a strong

collective base, you know, how
do you kind of view the

traditional art world, like
Sotheby's and Christie's, you

know, along with Web 3?

Do you think that they
eventually become one?

Do they think that you think
that they stay separate?

Do you think that there's like
a healthy balance?

You know, I'm just curious to
kind of know, after being on

both sides, like what your
thoughts have kind of been

around them.

Speaker 2: I think probably like
a healthy balance.

I think sort of Like there are
like certain curators that I've

worked with that it's like I
mean they have like decades of

experience and it's like you
need curators like.

There are the people who are
like telling the story and

there's like a reason that, like
those people exist and like

whatever, like thrive in that
profession.

So I think it's sort of like
what 3 doesn't like eliminate,

like the need to like sort of
like curate something and like

create a narrative through that
curation.

So, but I do think that, like
some of the curators I've worked

with, like who like follow me
on Twitter, you know, I'll see

them like liking, just liking,
certain things that I post about

, like auctions on like Super
Air or like Christie's or

whatever, and I'm like oh, like
they're curious about this and I

think they're curious about
like their place, you know,

within that world and sure.

So I don't know, I don't know
if one I don't think one you

know like gobbles up the other.

I think it's sort of more of a
merge of those worlds and It'll

be interesting to see, like how
those things come together,

because they're I mean they're,
I think for artists is sort of

like having again, like being
able to sort of Skip over that

sort of 50% cut.

Like feels pretty nice.

But also, I think, if you had
Like a community of curators.

That was sort of like bringing
a super high level of artwork

together for an exhibition or
something you can.

You can really justify like
that.

50% then begin to be in or not,
maybe not 50%.

Some other, you know, like
obviously Christie's and some of

these they don't take 50%.

But I think you can start to
justify it.

I like some type of commission
and to be sort of in something

that feels a bit more like
curated and special and like,

yeah, I mean for me just like
showing alongside some of the

artists.

I was, you know, I was like a
tiny little fish, this sea of

like big Christie's artists and
I was like that's really cool,

like when I walked in the
building and was like I'm in the

wrong place, you know it's like
I must be in the wrong building

and I actually asked the
security guard if I was in the

wrong building.

It was like some like standing
next to a Georgia key and he was

like no, you're upstairs and
I'm like that can't be right and

definitely in the wrong
building.

But so you know, those things
like have I think you know that

they have merit, like it's
exciting and Sure, I think it's

cool to see those, those worlds
come together a bit.

Speaker 1: I think so too.

I think, and I think auction
houses have come a long way

since they first kind of entered
in.

You know, specifically talking
about Sotheby's, for a long time

I didn't really like how they
were approaching it.

It just felt very like we're
just trying.

It was all fear-based, you know
.

It kind of felt like they just
didn't know what the hell they

were doing and they were just
kind of it was just all cash

crowd.

It felt, even though, like,
obviously we're all here to make

money, but like it just it
didn't feel genuine.

You know, and I think recently,
with the generative art stuff

that they recently did, like
that was a really well presented

, you know, event.

And I think Christie's has
always kind of maintained,

though, like a consistency of
that because, like they were the

ones who Brought people like
hosted the people every day sale

, like they've kind of there's
always been a little bit more of

an effort on their end.

So it's nice to see, like in my
just in my view or my opinion,

like Sotheby's kind of like
catching up to that and finally,

you know, putting a little bit
more intention behind their

actions.

But at that, speaking of like
that event, like did showing at

Christie's and having your work
there and that building did that

kind of like open up any new
doors for you?

Did that kind of like alter
your perspective in any way?

Did it do like, when it comes
to like where you could see this

going, where you could see your
career going?

Speaker 2: You know, I think it
probably will have open doors,

but I it's sort of like too soon
to say, I think you know, like

I don't know if I've.

I think I think there are
certain things that like

definitely legitimize your
career in other people's eyes,

like like my dad, it was like
Christie's, like I know what

that is, she had a bubble.

So I'm like, yeah, dad, like
see, I'm doing it.

It's like you know, working
with like bigger brands, like

Hermes or so.

That's like people are like, oh
yeah, like I know what that is.

So like I know I understand
what you're doing, and so I

think, like in that way, it's
like very exciting because it's

like something that people like
it's a name that people

recognize, it's something that
they know and it's like it sort

of represents this thing that's
bigger than itself.

But in terms of like it leading
to like other exhibition

opportunities, I think that kind
of stuff it's like it almost

has to like breathe for a while
before you can really see, you

know the aftermath of it, you
know, before you can kind of be

like oh wow, that actually led
to all these other things.

It's kind of I think I'll
probably need more space for a

minute.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and that makes
sense.

I mean, I've noticed that
anything with like traditional

art or just art in general, like
you know what I think, what

again, going back to like skewed
perspectives, I think Web 3 can

really put a really untrue kind
of like lens on, like the speed

in which things should happen
or can happen, because, like

this space moves so fast,
because it's like it's a 24 hour

market, it's a global like,
it's a global movement, you know

, and things, you know, we build
things, we break things, we

build things.

It improves so fast and like I
think my sense of time, just

from being here for a little
over two years, is like

completely fucked.

Like I just I don't, I don't
understand things that happened

a month ago, it fell, or like
that happened last week feels

like a month, you know, and but
what I've also noticed is that

you know, these are some like
really cool milestones to

accomplish.

But like I've also realized that
like even just going back to my

own like way I collect art,
like I don't always see a piece

and instantly buy it, like it
has, you know, because usually

the people that I collect from
have a lot of there's, a lot of

story that's baked into the work
and it's like okay, if I'm

going to be spending a
significant amount of money on

this, like I want to make sure
that, like this is something I

really like connect with and it
some of the pieces take months,

you know that I bought.

Some of them take days, you
know.

So it just it.

So it kind of makes sense that,
like I guess results aren't

necessarily immediate, you know,
or doors that open aren't

necessarily immediate, and I
also probably think that, based

on like where we're at, like
this, market conditions aren't

really helping or they might be
delaying it a little bit in that

sense, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like
everything was moving.

I mean, when I first like, when
I first draw up my collection

and my Genesis collection 2021,
it was just this feeling of

things are just happening all
the time and it's just like

moving and you know, and it's
going to be sold out and it's

just like so urgent or something
.

And I think that that pace is
definitely like shifted and that

creates a lot of sort of I mean
, it makes sense.

It's like it's super stressful
because it's like you have now

like structured the way that you
live around that pace.

You know and I'm not, I'm no
exception to that I was like,

damn, like I'm going shopping,
you know, like I was like you

know, and then all of a sudden
it's like oh, that's actually

not how it's going to be forever
, so you sort of have to be like

shit.

You know like I better pay off
that credit card bill.

But I do think that you know
like it makes.

I think it makes sense that
people are sort of, but sort of

like it's that's very stressful.

But I think kind of again like
going back to, sort of like

having your eggs in more than
one basket.

And, like you know, like I seek
out, like commission work too

and my commission work doesn't
doesn't always not every client

I work for is like we want you
to do something surreal.

you know, I do like stuff that
is like kind of not the most

exciting work, that I don't.

It's not like a brook D'donado
photograph, like I don't put my

name on a leave-in sometimes and
it's like that's okay, like I'm

.

I mean, maybe for some people
that's not okay, but I'm fine

with that, I feel fine with that
.

I'm kind of like again, like
that takes the pressure off of

like the thing that is closest
to me, which is like making art.

So I think like, yeah, I guess,
like having again, like I kind

of also did that too, I had all
my eggs and like in like open

sea Genesis collection and I was
just like, oh man, like like

this shit pops off, like I'm
just good.

And then I sort of like, yeah,
you come back down to earth and

I'm like, oh, like cool, I also
have to pay like a ton of taxes

on that.

So I'm like I actually better
just like chill out and slow

down a bit.

But yeah, I think, like again,
like kind of taking some some

space from it, you can kind of
realize what things led to other

things and they they are
definitely like, I think, for

instance, like Chrissie's, like
South Abbey's led to Chrissie's.

I think it was like the curator
saw South Abbey's and then

reached out from Chrissie's.

So for sure, like some of those
things, you can see the

connectedness of them quickly,
but I think in like the big

picture it's.

It's sort of like you got to let
it breathe, which I think is

sort of not always what the
space feels adapted to do, you

know, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that, I
think, but also as humans, like

it's like I think we, I think
it's naturally.

You know, something I'm I've
commonly, that I commonly do, is

like, you know, it's like every
time I set a goal and I get

there.

It's like I always get there,
but it's usually not in the

timeframe that I had thought
about or that I had planned, and

it's really frustrating and it
kind of goes back to this,

through this, through line of,
like you know, doing things like

yoga, and it's like where it's
like if you just want to go lay

down, you can just go lay down
and that's really all you need

to do, yeah, and I think, just
like allowing a little bit of

breathing room for things to
happen.

So it's like, while it's
painful and it takes time, it's

also like, oh man, like this is
nice.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, like this
is so nice.

Um, so, have you been through?

Is this your first like bear
cycle?

Or like when did you get into
crypto?

When did you get into Web?

Three Like how did this, how
did this thing all come to your?

Come to your table.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I got
into it sort of by way of Ben,

because Ben had she was visiting
me in.

Austin and he was like just
telling me, like you know, I

thought he was insane.

I was like I'm dropping my
Genesis collection, Like I have

to like do it now, and he like
couldn't get eat and his wallet.

And I was like, oh dude, like I
have a coin base, Like I

probably, and he said you do.

I was like, yeah, I got, like I
bought, I bought Bitcoin in

like 2013 because like someone
told me to do.

And then I, well, I made some
mistakes, I sold it because, but

you know, I needed the money.

I got in.

I was like involved in a car
accident.

I was like in the back of a taxi
cab and I got like my teeth

were just like ruined and I was
like like really bad insurance

and I sold it for, like you know
, like 600 bucks or something.

But to be honest, it's like
it's one of those things where

it's like whatever that's 600
bucks was like really valuable

to me back then.

So I'm sort of like oh yeah,
like it could be a lot more

money now, but I'm like, well,
it was pretty cool to have teeth

.

So, like you know, I don't know
what am I going to do, but

anyway, I still had my wallet
and so I was like oh, I can like

send you a little youth or
whatever.

And so I like send it to him
and he like launched his

collection and then we kind of
started talking about.

Those were sort of like the
early stages of us talking about

making a stranger together,
which was like our collection

that we did together, and kind
of the plan was that like, yeah,

I would like drop my collection
and then sort of like in the

coming months we would do some
kind of collaboration together.

So really like my entry into
the space was like through Ben.

But then I think the more I
learned about just like the

technology and sort of like the
capabilities of like Web 3, I

was like super intrigued by it
and like I think one thing you

and I kind of spoke about was
like just this like idea of like

royalties.

Like when I was setting up my
collection I was like, oh, my

hair is just like so crazy that
I could sort of like and I'd

always like dreamed of something
like that as an artist.

Because, like, who doesn't like
the idea that you could?

sort of maintain some level of
like investment in your own work

is like really exciting.

So that was like deeply
intriguing to me just being able

to sort of like have some say
in how the series like played

out over time.

But yeah, so it's really sort
of through Ben.

Speaker 1: And.

Speaker 2: I think you know I
guess that was like at the 2021.

I feel like there have been
other bear markets, I don't know

.

It's sort of like what you know
it's like a bear market is like

everybody tweeting that it's a
bear market.

And then, and then you sort of
become aware of the fact that

it's a bear market.

You're like, oh, I wasn't
selling anything but I thought

it was just me, and then he
realized that everyone's

tweeting about it.

You're like, oh shit, okay,
we're all not doing that.

So it's like, yeah, I do feel
like there's been, there have

been others that I've gone
through, but you know, it's like

the nature of any market.

I think a bit, and again, like
doesn't change the fact that

it's like stressful, but I think
there are ways to still like

engage with people and like kind
of like what we were saying,

just like take a beat and you
know, think about what you want

to make when it's not that
market, because eventually you

know things, kind of Wax and
plane and yeah, I it is.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and I
think that we're starting to

finally see, that I'm starting
to see at least a few artists

that, like I've chatted with,
whether it's NGMs or on a space

or just, you know, over the
phone, it's just like it, even

though it doesn't feel good to
like watch what's happening on

the timeline, it's like, you
know, like this is when everyone

, at least from what I like,
because this is my first time

through it, so you know, through
any sort of, you know I call

back a couple, you know I call
back to a moment like the last,

like real bad market that the
whole country experienced, like

you know, was, of course, like
the housing you know the housing

crisis but at the same, I was
so sheltered like my parents had

.

My parents, like were very
financially literate, they did

everything that they were, they
did everything that they were

supposed to do and that we
didn't feel obviously they

weren't happy, but like we
didn't, nothing changed in my

lifestyle, Nothing changed in
our lifestyles of family, Like

it just remained consistent.

So I didn't really feel any of
those like negative kind of you

know, yeah, just like the
negative reaction, that the

blowbacks from something like
this, and so this is all really

new to me, you know.

So there's days where it's like
, you know I, because I came in

right at the tail end of the 20,
you know like right before the

bull market hit.

I came in like three months
before and so I just thought

this was all normal.

You know, like I thought this
was like the way it was you know

and turns out it's not.

you know, turns out it's really
not, and so it's just an

interesting time right now.

I wanted to you know.

Something that has always stuck
out to me, like with your work,

is like your use of colors, and
I read in like a few articles

that you had like a lot of this
was like inspired by by your

grandmother and your
grandmother's home.

So I'd love to kind of know if
you wouldn't like for whatever,

whatever you do want to share,
whatever you can share, like

kind of like the impact that she
had on you.

That's always been something
that I've been curious about.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say it's
probably like a bit of yeah,

definitely like a bit of my
grandma and my mom, like they

both just had sort of like it's
funny to think about, because

there's sort of like these
things that you know you were

like I get like down the road
and you're like, oh, that's gosh

.

Like I catch myself doing
something and I'm like, oh, my

God, it sounds like my mom or my
grandma or you know whatever.

And I think that's come through
in my work in a lot of ways

where it's sort of like when I
was like growing up even we

lived in like I grew up in kind
of like rural northeast Ohio and

it's like a small town and we
lived in like a brick ranch

house and I was thinking about
this recently where we have this

like room that you walked into
and I actually have a photo that

is shot in this room and it's
the only image in the house that

in this house that I lived in
with my mom, or at least like

image that I still show and it's
like this she had these like

two floral couches with like
these little throw pillows and

this like cherry wood coffee
table with like a lace doiling

and a little flower arrangement.

And everything was like really,
I mean, you could just like it's

all perfectly composed, you
could make great photos in there

.

The only reason I didn't is
because I was just like starting

out and I didn't know what I
was doing, but and then by the

time I did she had moved.

But anyway, everything was like
immaculate and it was like

called the second living room.

We kind of called it because
you didn't actually sit in there

and it was like if you did, if
you did sit in there, she'd be

like oh, can you like move the
pillows?

Like don't, don't like lay on
those pillows, you're going to

crush them.

And so they were like he's sort
of like and like take your

shoes off on the carpet, and
like everything was sort of like

it was meant to just be like a
visual room almost, and I think

about that.

Yeah yeah, hell, I don't think I
ever really sat on like it's

like.

My memories of sitting on those
couches are like my mom being

like sweetie, take your head off
that pillow.

Speaker 1: Like she's just like
yeah, take your shoes off.

Speaker 2: And like take your
head off that pillow and like so

I think you know it's
interesting how those things

have like come through in my
work where like I find myself

like shooting something and I'm
like, oh, the pillow is like

just easy, like tilted up a
little bit and it's like it's

almost like overly like curated
in a way, but like I sort of

like that about it because it
reminds me of both of them,

where they were sort of like
things could actually just be

beautiful, like that could be.

The whole purpose was that it
was just beautiful and you could

just that could be its function
.

You know, and I really like, I
love that.

You know, it's like the utility
is that you want to look at it

and if I'm like and that's like
my grandma and my mom both kind

of were like that, it's sort of
like yeah, this isn't the couch

for hanging out is in the other
room where the TV is.

This is just like a statement
about the house you walk in.

It's an entry room.

It sort of looks like a living
room, but don't be fooled, no.

So yeah, I think that's sort of
, and they're both like just had

a lot of like floral motifs and
pinks and kind of like maroons

and greens and there's this sort
of like like pastels and just

like this whole.

It's sort of like a fusion.

I think the palette is a fusion
of, you know, just a lot of

different things, different
patterns, different colors that

are like from their houses.

But I love carpet, like I love
shooting carpet, like my dad's

bathroom is carpeted and like
that's insane and everybody's

always like what's it Like?

I don't know, I think it's just
like that's how it came.

But yeah, so I guess like
finding it's interesting because

I think, like when I was still
living in Ohio, I just used,

like I used my dad's house as a
backdrop for my mom's house, and

now, being in Austin, I think
there was a period like a few

years or I sort of like oh, I
got to go back to Ohio to shoot,

or like I need to like go
someplace that like looks like

Ohio, and now it's sort of like
I just collected a lot of their

things and I can kind of like
recreate the versions of these

spaces which just kind of it
feels like a new, like I'm

feeling reinspired or something
with my work, or it's like even

this thing that I shot recently.

It was like I had my mom's
curtains and like her pillow,

but then we worked with like a
set designer and I went through

her prop warehouse and found a
couch that looks like the couch

that I'm telling you about in
that living room and a coffee

table that looks like that
coffee table.

And then I have like these
doilies that are actually my

mom's and like this like little
like base that's like actually

someone you know, sort of like
taking these like things that

you can practically hang on to
and fusing them.

Then with these spaces that
maybe like no.

Speaker 1: Longer exist.

Do you think like having some
element of your family and all

of your work is like something
that you'll never not do?

Is that something that like, is
like a requirement for you to

shoot?

Speaker 2: You know it's sort of
like.

You know it's like in therapy
when you realize, oh my God,

like all of these patterns were
formed when that was like.

But it's like whatever a.

You know it's like one of those
.

It's like a new portal in your
brain opens up and you're like

oh my God, that all came from,
like this thing.

So in some ways probably it's
sort of like the things I'm

drawn to are from the place that
I'm from.

So I think like in that way it
probably always inserts itself a

bit.

But I don't think like some
images that I make are

definitely like less personal
than others and like I could see

making work about something
that actually has to do with

like someone else's family or
like something else entirely,

like I could see yeah, I don't
think it's always, you know,

it's like varying levels but
probably, but there is probably

some sort of seed that kind of
travels with me.

Speaker 1: That makes sense.

Yeah, I mean we.

Yeah, I look back in my work as
well.

It's like it's yeah, it's wild
when you hit those like moments

of awakening where you're just
like, oh, that that makes a lot

of sense.

And it was funny, like when you
release, like I'm in therapy

but I'm still in my patterns,
you know, or like I can't

remember yeah, I think that's
the title of it Like that was

like right when I hit a major
breakthrough.

I'm like it's like that.

It's like I'm still a fucking
dork, you know, but and I'm, I'm

in theory, but I'm still this
person, and you know, I think

part of the joy is that, you
know we.

I find that, like with my
journey in life at least, like I

feel like it's just a process
of undoing things that don't

work and keeping the things that
do, and it's oftentimes like a

really conflicting event,
because you're just like some

things that were planted, some
seeds that were planted there.

You're just like what the fuck?

Speaker 2: What the hell is that
?

I don't remember growing that.

Speaker 1: No, I don't remember
growing that.

Who put that there?

You know, like why did I?

Speaker 2: just let it happen.

Yeah, yeah.

There's this like there's this
comedian that has this like

she's got this special on
Netflix.

Her name's Taylor Tomlinson and
I discovered her in like the

beginning of the pandemic and,
like she, she had this bit in

one of her things that was like
you have to go to therapy in

your 20s because, like when
you're 30, that's when all the

trash and the water like freezes
and you're just like walking

along the water and you're like
what's that?

Daddy issues, oh well, and
she's just like she does this

whole thing about like seeing
like her different issues, like

frozen in this, like lake, and
how she's just like, well, can't

do anything about it.

Now I was like no that's insane
, so funny.

Speaker 1: I mean, I did.

I did about three years of
therapy in my late 20s.

You know I found that
incredibly useful.

I don't know if it's like this
for you, but like with me, I

think at least when I was
growing up, it was always like

your 20s, or always like your
celebrated years, and like your

30s was like the year like when
you started to officially get

old and life started to suck.

And I don't know about you, but
for me it's been like the

opposite.

I'm like my 20s were fucking
horrendous, you know, like I

went through every tough life
let not not all of them, I'm

sure there's a lot more for me
to learn, but like I feel like I

went through some of the most
fundamental like really grown up

, like tough lessons that I had
to learn, like during that time

and it was just like so
repetitive, you know, and I'm

like dude, when does this stop?

Like there's no way this can be
life, like there's no way this

can actually be real life.

But in my 30s it's like okay,
cool Now that I've gotten all

that done.

It's like cool Now I'm still.

I like 30.

I think, if I think it fits me
really well, I've gone through

all this shit.

There's not as much frozen shit
in the lake you know, and it

kind of marries that youth with
confidence and income and it's

like let's fucking go yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: I would say that I
mean I wouldn't have like the

worst 20s, but I would say that
like I don't know, I mean my 30s

have been a bit rough, but I
think, like initially, but

that's just because of like
whatever, like family getting

older and sort of like you know
this other, this other, like

days of life cycles and stuff,
but I think like in terms of how

I feel about myself, definitely
like my 30s have been better.

I would say, like my friend
called me.

My birthday was a few days ago
and my friend called me and he

was like messing around.

He's I think, I think he's 24
this year and we were like kind

of like unexpected, like
quarantine buddies.

I like met him here in Austin
and he just became like my

closest friend and I always joke
with him that he's like a 60

year old woman on the inside
because he's just like.

He's like super smart.

I mean he says things all the
time that I'm like how did you

think you're that out at your
age?

Like I'm just like I don't know
, you're like very advanced, but

anyway it was funny.

He called me the other day and
he was like hey, like you're

21st birthday, happy birthday.

And he's like messing with me
because he like knows that I'm

getting rolled in.

I was like to be honest, like
if you want to do that joke,

tell me.

It's like my 30th birthday, not
my 21st, because actually that

sounds awful.

I was like telling him.

I was like I don't want to be
21 again, but like maybe I'd go

back like a couple years, like
before I'd go back, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah,
I'll say I'll just like add like

it wasn't all bad, but it was
just like I walked through a lot

of really tough, like I had to
undo a lot of things that were

just so, so ingrained in me as
as a kid and it just didn't

serve me anymore that I had to
like to figure out like why it's

like God that took so long,
like I feel, like it was just

planted there.

But like getting it out is like
like uprooting that.

It's grown so much that like
uprooting it is man yeah it's a

lot of work, it really is.

Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, you
have to like sort of take 10

years to diagnose the issue.

Speaker 1: And then once the
issues diagnosed, you can

actually treat it.

Like yeah, it's like that's part
, you're right.

It's like part of it's like
knowing, like understanding

fully what it is.

Because, like, if you're
anything like me, you're just

like I'm going to try to guess
at it for a long time and just

try to remove things that don't,
and spend all this time, you

know, trying to remove things
that I don't fully know that I'm

removing, when I could just
like pause and, you know, go

through life and like figure it
out.

So I just have this ridiculous
impatience when it comes to

stuff like that.

It's like I should be farther
in life right now than I am, you

know, yeah there's also these
like periods of like.

Speaker 2: I feel like in my 20s
I had just like immense denial

for a lot of things, like I was
like.

I remember even in college I
was like working at this, like

like queer student media
magazine and I was like I am

definitely not queer guys.

Like I was, like I'm an ally,
like I was like I see that you

guys need a photo editor and I
will be able to help with that.

But don't get the wrong idea.

You know and like, and that
went on for like two years and

then I was like, oh, like I
think I'm gay, you know, like,

but sort of like the levels of
like denial you know that I had

in my 20s, or even like you know
the type of work I make, like

people will be like, oh, that's
like kind of dark, and I'd be

like, yeah, but it's just like
cool, right, because I'm fine,

like I'm good, and it's like
definitely not about me.

It's just sort of like I'm a
character, don't you see?

And then you like kind of look
back and I'm like, oh, I was

like going through some shit,
like what the hell is that?

Speaker 1: You know like you're
like good at lying to yourself,

in your 20s, I think.

Speaker 2: But well, I mean
depends Like my friend I was

telling you about, he's I don't
know.

He doesn't do that.

So it's sort of like I should
say that I was good at lying to

myself in my 20s not not that
everyone is.

Speaker 1: I think I was good at
it too.

I think we both were pretty.

We share that.

We share that.

We share that.

We share that.

I don't know whatever you call
that, but I find it so amazing A

lot of people that I'm friends
with now that are younger, like

23, 24, 25, like the level of
enlightenment that they have at

that age I'm just like I was not
even remotely close to that,

like I was still trying to
figure out how to put, like my

left shoe on my left foot and
like you know what I mean Like

and tie it the right way.

I had no perspective like these
people have and I just find it

fascinating.

Like I look at a few artist
friends that I have, like Alice

A and like Connor, and I'm just
like the shit that y'all are

spewing was like it took me.

I wasn't until my late 20s,
like early 30s, when I even

considered thinking like you
know it's wild, I guess probably

there.

Speaker 2: there probably is
something to say about just like

the way that technology has
developed to and like being able

to connect with people, like
even like.

I mean, I met Ben on Flickr and
I remember like he was one of

the first people I met.

That was like oh, you think
this?

and I think this and it's sort
of like, I don't know, just like

Instagram and like whatever
Twitter and sort of like all

these different like five or say
it's like you are able to sort

of like connect with people that
you just couldn't have, and so

there's there's sort of like
less isolation, I think, and

perspectives.

You know, it's sort of like
like maybe I wouldn't, maybe I

would have felt more comfortable
like coming out if I had like

in the middle of more queer
people.

I don't know, you know it's
sort of like, but I think the

world has like changed in that
way where you're sort of like

exposed to a lot more
perspectives and like a lot,

like a lot of different
perspectives and then a lot of

like also like minded ones, but
it's sort of like allows you to

like take in more information
and like frame like your

thoughts and feelings about
things in a different way.

Speaker 1: Totally.

I mean, I recently just had had
a chat with Siobhan Wong.

She's a 3D, she's like a 3D
modeler or creates 3D models of

people, and that was like this
is like one of the conversations

that we had where it's like
there's this dialogue around

people thinking that's like oh,
technology is making us like

less human and like it's ruining
connection, and it's like I

think it's doing the opposite,
like I think it's allowed us to

become more human than we've
ever been, and I think it's

allowed us it's reduced the
friction to finding people that

have similar interests.

And I think that it's like look
, you and me like live in the

same city.

How long would it have taken
for us to meet each other, if at

all?

You know, without this, like we
can all we can already cut

through the small talk and the
bullshit and like kind of like

figuring out if this is the
person that I vibe with, there's

already a really core, like a
core, couple of like really

strong things that we align on,
you know, and it's like the

friction to that is now gone.

You know, I think it's
beautiful, like, I think it's a

beautiful thing, you know.

So, yeah, it's just a, it's a,
it's a fascinating thing because

, like I, and I also again like
chat, like chatting with people

on the other side of the world
and chatting with people you

know in my own city, and it
allows for, I guess, that

togetherness to I don't know.

It comes with its own set of
problems, though, you know like,

because people now have a
microphone to express themselves

, you know, like that's just a
double said, double edged sword,

you know that's true.

And you know, it's like one view
, that's like social media is

destroying this, but it's like I
often think like what if we all

had all of this angst and and
and whatever this is inside of

us in the past and we just never
had a way to share that?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And like what's going
to happen when we get those

tools?

We're just going to do it, you
know, and it just may not always

look nice.

Speaker 2: That's so true, yeah,
but yeah, I mean, there was a.

Yeah, there was a time.

Even, like you know, everybody
talks about like therapy now,

like everybody's like, oh, my
therapist, and like I'm in

therapy, and like blah, blah,
blah, blah and it's sort of like

it's become and that's like
good, you know, like it's sort

of like cool.

You don't have to just like go
like you're not, sort of like I

don't know.

You can be taking steps to
bettering yourself without some

sort of like stigma that you're
like not I don't know, like

you're not like tough enough, so
you have to like, or whatever,

like these old, these like
archaic, like ideas of sort of

mental health that are like not
healthy and like not realistic.

And it's like actually nice,
because it's sort of like I feel

like it wasn't that long ago
where, if you were like, oh, my

therapist and someone's like oh
you're seeing a therapist what's

wrong?

And it's really like sort of
right you know, and now it's

kind of like oh, my therapist,
and people are like cool, my

therapist.

And you know, when it's like
great, like I, it's like I love

that, it's like it's a new type
of conversation.

Speaker 1: I didn't even think
about that.

So you said that like, because,
yeah, like, even five years ago

.

You know, if someone said like,
oh, my therapist, it's like, oh

, man, that person's like yeah
you know, like, like they are

really, they really have
something going on Meanwhile.

That was like right before I
first started, and it's like I'm

sitting here weighed down by
all these things that I can't

identify, but I have too much
pride to go do that myself.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know
yeah, that's kind of like,

honestly, to circle back, it was
like sort of that was kind of a

bit of the play of that image
like went to therapy, but I'm

still in my patterns.

It's like those.

Like those are all just like
different wallpapers from like

all different times, like like
some of those are, I think like

one of them is from my dad's
house, one of them is from like

an abandoned house in Ohio.

One of them is like from
traveling to like Europe.

I like photographed it at
someone's house and then like

printed it and then like a
couple of them are like just

like old wallpapers that
collected.

And then I have like my mom's
shoe on, which is like another

one of the patterns, and like
these shorts that I found in

Austin.

It's there and it's sort of
like all these different

patterns come together and it's
just like I don't know.

It's obviously like a really
playful, fun image, but it's

like.

It's like, yeah, we're just,
we're like a combination of like

all these different things that
comes together and it creates

this really chaotic thing, but
it's actually sort of you know,

that's life.

Speaker 1: If I look back at any
experience, life is never

linear Like it's like.

I mean, it's all linear in the
sense that it's like moving

forward, you know, like that is
that is true, but the way it

moves forward, sometimes it like
hangs left or sometimes it goes

diagonal and sometimes it goes
down and sometimes it goes

straight up and it's like.

I think that's one of the
things that I've enjoyed about

just the space in general and
hanging out with people like you

is that like this is such a
nonlinear journey and there's so

many people on it, and I think
it's, I think, like people who

are, I think, people who embrace
that, even though it's more

chaotic and more.

What's the word I'm looking for
?

It's a crypto term, volatile,
it's not a volatile term.

I was like I don't think that
word has been around for a while

, Boone.

It's associated with crypto,
like, but like I think that more

volatile aspect, like it's
super healthy to like actually

like not have things on cruise
control, you know, and not have

everything always figured out.

Because I think that's with me,
one of the last things that,

like, I've had to undo, or one
of the things I'm undoing, is

that, like everything's got to
be figured out in your early 30s

and it's like not quite too
sure about it.

Like you don't have to have
kids yet, you don't have to have

a home yet, you don't have to
know your life, you don't have

to.

You don't have to have any of
this figured out, right, you

know?

So Amen.

Well, yeah, brooke, like I
think we want to start wrapping

things up here.

Speaker 2: This has been fun.

Speaker 1: It's been a treat
getting to hang out in vibe and

go all over the place.

Yeah, we really did go all over
the place, do you?

Speaker 2: title these, or do
you just sort of like it's a

good question Because so well, I
have the answer to the question

right now?

Speaker 1: Right now, no, but
it's something that I have.

Like I obviously put a
description, but, like I've also

toyed around with the idea of
like putting titles.

And I guess, because I look at
like some people, some of the

people who are like the leaders
in the industry of like long

form content it's like Lex
Friedman and Joe Rogan and it's

like you look at like and you
look at other podcasts, just in

general they just have the name
and the episode number.

You know you just have the name
and the episode number.

You know you just have the name
and the episode number.

You know, and it's like that's
kind of just what I've done by

default, just because it's like
okay, these people are really

successful and that's how they
do it, so maybe let's do that.

But I think now that you've
like said that and I've had,

because I've had the thought for
a couple of them, like I

sometimes I'll put a title there
and I just I'm like no, no, no,

no, no, no.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Like I, just it's,
it's, it's, it's strange and

it's something that, like I may
do in the future.

But, okay, don't switch it up,
I don't know what the title.

Yeah, don't switch it up for me
.

Speaker 2: I just was asking
because you said something that

was.

I was sort of like feel like
we've touched on so many things

that like, if you were to make a
title, it would be like, you

know, sort of like like volatile
and nonlinear patterns with

your pets at 11am, or something
like you know just like, take

all the sort of like weird life.

Well, how about this?

Speaker 1: Well, how about this
like, how about this?

Volatile and nonlinear patterns
with?

Speaker 2: there you go, there
you go I'm like I'm actually.

I'm not bad.

Cool, I like it Well that's
what the title will be.

Speaker 1: Send it.

Send it, yeah, I want to, as we
you know before we, before we

sign off, though, is there like
to give you, like, an

opportunity to like share
anything that you're currently

working on, or if there's
anything that any timelines or

anything that you want people to
be aware of.

Speaker 2: With whatever you
have next, I mean, I'm always

working on things.

So you know, I guess, just to
let everyone know I'm working on

things, but I don't have
anything like any, I don't have

any like big announcements or
anything.

I am hoping to release a book
at some point my first book, but

it's sort of like we're like
working on it steadily and then

I kind of dropped the ball for a
few months and I would like to

pick it back up, but I don't
know, I don't have like a

timeline on it or anything.

Speaker 1: Where, if you want it
, for people who are new or want

to like to see a different, or
just yeah, for people who want

to like figure out where to find
you, where's the best place

they can go or where are you the
most active.

Speaker 2: I'm probably the most
active on Twitter, but I post

like I think I'm probably less
annoying on Instagram, you know,

and that's sort of like
constantly like shilling stuff.

So maybe go to Instagram yeah,
I mean your shill content is

really funny.

Speaker 1: Like you, you find a
playful way to do that and I

always enjoy it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad you
dig it Like I do.

It's fun.

Speaker 1: It's not just like 16
editions left, it's like it's

always some like little playful,
like spin on it or you know,

like the plates are shaking,
like they're just in shambles,

they're shot.

Speaker 2: They are.

They never say they are.

They were like who would ever
want to collect me?

And I was like 32 people, baby.

And they were like I'm shocked,
I'm shaking.

Speaker 1: I have too much time
on my hands it's like my.

Speaker 2: all the objects in my
house are coming personalities.

Well, this is what this?

Speaker 1: is what happens when
we go into a lockdown.

This, you know everything.

Everything in the house becomes
a personal thing, a personality

or friend.

That's true.

Well, brooke, again thank you
so much for coming on.

This has been a lot of fun.

I'm so glad we live in the same
city and when it's not 100

degrees, maybe we can go biking
on that trail.

Speaker 2: Ooh, yes, I'd like to
do that.

That sounds good.

Thanks for having me, boudin.

Speaker 1: Thank you for joining
us on another fantastic episode

of the Shiller Curated Podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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