Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Shiller Curated

podcast.

This week's guest is Siobhan
Wong, a multidisciplinary artist

who primarily specializes in 3D
virtual models and is the

co-founder of NFT Asia.

Building on her experience as a
fashion and advertising

photographer for the past decade
, she creates lifelike virtual

models and places them in
surreal environments and the

metaverse.

In this episode, we delve into
Siobhan's inaugural solo art

exhibition, underpinned by
blockchain technology that

vividly manifests her dynamic
narrative.

We also dissect the new Apple
Mixed Reality headset and the

effects of AI on the art
community.

Wrapping up, we engage in a
thoughtful discourse on how

technology, paradoxically, is
enhancing our humanity more than

ever before.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and delve into this

electric conversation with
Siobhan.

Does it still feel weird saying
GMT?

I gotta be honest.

Is it still weird or is it
still good?

Speaker 2: I think it's gotten
to a level where you kind of do

it because it's funny Yeah.

Speaker 1: Because I think I
just do it out of habit.

It felt like something fun in
the bull run.

It felt like even all the way
until probably midway through

2022.

It felt good, but now I'm just
like it just doesn't hit the

same.

It just doesn't hit the same.

I mean, i still say it, but it
doesn't hit.

I just had to get your take on
that.

Speaker 2: I get it.

I would say it's.

I think doing it now it's kind
of it just comes up more in a

funny way.

So, like the last time I did it
, it was probably to my husband.

He was like what I don't know.

I just love doing it in real
life because it's so funny to

bring this silly trend from
Twitter out into real life and

see people how they react to it.

Speaker 1: Yes, do you so
question I get.

I need your honesty here.

Do you, when you think of like
responses in your head now, do

you like think of like the
acronyms, Like, if you're like

like responding to a text, do
you think like I'm going to say

this, then LOL, you know.

Like when you did, does LOL
ever like come in your head?

Do you ever feel compelled?

Speaker 2: to say that out loud.

Not only does LOL come out in,
come up in my head it goes lol

Right.

Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes.

Okay, i was trying to make sure
, like if I was just crazy or if

I like.

Speaker 2: I'm happy that at
least one other person is just

as like, crazy or weird as I am,
yeah, yeah, i'm not a sanity

check, but I'm like someone out
there, just like you.

Speaker 1: Okay, all right, cool
, i like that.

Even you know, 12 hours apart
we're still.

We're very much the same, like
we're trying to find the

similarities, not the
differences here.

So um yes.

Well, welcome onto the podcast.

I'm, uh, sivan.

I'm a big fan of you, your work
, i'm happy to have you on here.

I just want to probably start
off with like, how, like, how

was NFT Lisbon?

Speaker 2: It was super fun,
like I.

I really enjoyed it.

Uh, i've been to NFT NYC, i've
been to a few different

conferences around the world And
I think this was probably the

best one for me.

I got to meet so many friends
that I've known for such a long

time artists and collectors, and
so, like I think it was just a

great group of people who
actually went and the event

itself was great.

Uh, there was a beach party
heart to complain.

Uh, so, yeah, no, i had so much
fun when I was there.

Um, i got to speak on a panel,
i got to do my own talk and

people clap, which I assume was
just good.

I'm just going to go with that
assumption And so, yeah, all

good, all good.

Can I complete?

Speaker 1: That's wonderful.

Yeah, it's always nice when
people respond and people will

clap and it's like that's a,
it's a great thing.

I love it There.

It was really cool to see, as,
as someone you know, obviously

in the West, uh, in America,
like you know, nft NYC like is

like the thing here, um, so it
was really nice to see the East

like step up and like play and
like put on this really good

event, cause, like I saw, it
looked like nothing but fun.

You know, and I know in the
beginning it I didn't really

hear much about it, but like
this year I really did, and so

it's really cool to like see
that because I know there were

so many, there's so many friends
that I have.

This is a global community We
were talking about that earlier

where it's just like we live in
such this like wild big universe

here, uh, with people in all
different time zones, um, and

sharing the same vision and the
same same excitement.

But I always kind of felt bad
for a lot of my friends that

were not over there, because
some of the earlier events were

just like an office building
with like some TVs and some

cords and it like just looked
really terrible And I'm like

like that's not fair, you know,
and like travels expensive.

I mean it's it's not cheap to
like to travel across the pond,

you know.

So it's really cool to see that
.

Like what was probably if you
had to choose a highlight, um,

from that talk or I guess, going
to your talk, let's just like I

thought what was, what were
some of the main things that you

discussed or what were some of
the main topics conversation

there.

Speaker 2: Um, so I was on one
panel and one talk.

So for the panel, i was only
was basically to represent NFT

Asia and we kind of discussed
what it was like to build a

community.

Um, the the topic was about
building bridges.

So I was building the bridge
between East and West physical

to digital artists and connected
et cetera.

Um, so again, people could have
.

I just assumed they liked it.

And then for my talk, what I
had concentrated on was because

I did my own solo exhibition
earlier this year in March.

So I decided and I did a trend
that talked about how, you know,

i drew this on thing on my own,
i organized it and this was how

I did it.

It got really good response.

So I decided to actually do a
whole talk about it.

So that was what I focused on.

When I was in investment and
eight people clap Also, the

lines were very blinding, so I
was like couldn't see what they

were doing.

Speaker 1: They clap should be
good, and yet that's wonderful

And congratulations on the solo
exhibition, by the way.

that had to be a huge, had to
be a huge accomplishment.

I bet that felt really good.

Speaker 2: And was it felt
really good because, also, it

was a huge financial update,
update, yeah Thing, it was a

huge thing.

So with things comes anxiety
And it was nice to.

Obviously it was nice that
people responded to it, but it

was also nice that I didn't have
to really hold the burden of

financially going through it and
then being able to say I'm glad

people like my work and then
end that way But also be like,

oh you know, people bought the
work and people liked it and

people were responding to it And
so it was just overall like a

really rewarding experience And,
as much as it was scary, i'm

really glad I did it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, who put
that on?

Was that all done by you Or was
that done by like a who helped

you put that on?

Speaker 2: So basically what had
happened was that last year I

was thinking that perhaps I
should do a solo exhibition this

year, because I don't know.

I've been an artist for two
years, seems about, and during

that nobody had offered me to do
a solo exhibition.

So I was like, well, that's
lame, i'll do one on my own.

So I and she reached out to a
bunch of people, told them like

this was my intention, that was
going to do a solo exhibition,

and a connector told me he had a
venue available for two weeks

in March And if I was interested
in it, so I said yes, and so

the venue itself was covered by
then.

Everything else I got myself a
producer, got myself a team of

people to help handle, like, the
physical components of it, and

I was a bit choosy because I
wanted to do some customized

tags, so I had to hire a team to
do that too.

So I obviously got a lot of
help and which was great because

there was a lot of things about
physical exhibition that didn't

know how to do.

And having a producer was
amazing because she asked all

the questions that I needed to
even ask.

So, yeah, i had a lot of help.

Speaker 1: That's amazing.

I mean, i think that's you.

I wanted to ask that because I
think it's it's a.

I wanted to shed some light on
like how much it does take to

put on an exhibition, like how
much resources it does take and

how many people are involved.

It's not just simply like
showcasing the work.

I mean, i'm sure you can do
something without all of that

help and have a solo exhibition,
but I don't really think it

would translate that well to
like sales, like you know,

people collecting your work And
like.

Ultimately, that's the goal of
doing these, and I think a lot

of people don't ask questions of
like okay, it's more than just

doing it.

What do I want to achieve from
this, or what is the primary

outcome?

You know, sometimes it may just
be to like, get the work out

there, and that may be the only
goal and it may not require a

whole lot, but that's really
cool that you did that And I'm

very excited for you And that's
got to be have a good feeling.

So something that you mentioned
there was a physical component

and you gave it a talk in Lisbon
around bridging digital and

physical.

So I'm definitely very curious.

As you know, i love the
physical component.

There's something very special.

It's ritualistic.

It adds an entirely new element
.

So, as someone who's primarily
digital, you know what was the

physical component?

What was kind of the thought
process of bridging your digital

work to a physical display?

And where do you kind of see
that headed?

I mean, because it's it's.

Sometimes it's like a very it's
.

I think this space is often
very confused.

It has like an identity crisis
of like okay, we're this like

digital media, like what are
NFTs, you know, and it's like

what role does physical play in
that?

So I know that's a super.

I went all over the place.

So take that whatever part
means the most to you.

Run with that Is what I'll say.

All right.

Speaker 2: All right, uh, okay,
let me think about this physical

, i guess, for me.

So, when I was doing my
exhibition, for me, i am

somebody who is very excited
about technology because to me

it tells me that there's just so
much more potential for artists

to go, like the different
directions We can go, the more

freedom to explore it, et cetera
.

Right, so, like this to me is
what technology provides.

And so when I wanted to do this
solo exhibition, what I had

wanted to show people was also,
with digital art, how much more

technology can improve the art
in a holistic manner, in a way

that supports the concept,
instead of just technology for

the sake of technology.

So in the physical exhibition,
what had done was I had, okay,

my first two pieces.

They were called duality of
self And it talks about the

introvert, extroverts, part of
our being.

Right, like everybody has an
introvert side, extrovert side,

which comes out a little bit
more depending on the people we

are, with, the social context,
even the age we are at, and so

for that I actually for the
physical exhibition.

I had a footfall sensor
customized for the whole

exhibition And the way it had
worked was that as people

entered the exhibition, the
artwork now represents the space

And when there's very few
people in the exhibition, the

introvert comes out and the
extrovert hides away.

but where people started coming
in, vice versa, right.

So like it's almost like an
interactive art sort of thing,

where people actually react and
change how the art looks like

And they play a part in how the
art is being shown.

And I feel like this is the
kind of thing that I really

enjoy doing, because it makes
people feel like they're part of

the art that they're looking at
And it also changes their

behavior in the exhibition,
right, because they'll be like

oh right, now there's a lot of
people, but I want to see the

introvert version.

I have to come back another day
when nobody's here.

Wow.

Speaker 1: Things like this
That's very cool.

I think that's something I enjoy
about generative art as well is

that you know, especially with
art like, just for an example,

artblock's engine the collector
is part of the process.

You know it's like that work is
not known until they click the

button.

You know that output is not
going to be known.

So I love that you're kind of
taking that same interactiveness

, because I think that's one of
the coolest things about NFTs.

You know, ever since Transient
Labs came onto the scene, ever

since Ben Strauss did his like
his Transient series back in

2021, i was like that's cool,
like that is fucking cool, you

know, yeah, and so I think
that's really it's awesome that

you structured it in that way so
people could view a different

side of that.

And I, going back to your point
on like technologies for

technology's sake, i enjoy the
fact that, like there's a lot of

intention behind the story that
you're telling and it's not

just dynamic just to be dynamic.

It's dynamic to show a
different part of the story that

you're telling.

Speaker 2: Yes, thank you, thank
you.

Yeah, i think it's also because
I was very, very fortunate that

I actually had quite a few
people from the Thread Arts

scene come to my exhibition and
I was very proud, i guess, to be

able to showcase this world
that I live in in a way that has

always been seen somewhat
negatively over the media for

the past few years.

Right To be able to showcase
like hey, i know you've heard

about NFTs, i know you've heard
about blockchain, i know you've

heard about NFT Org, but look at
this Org as Org, and this is

what it can do that it
previously could not do because

it didn't have NFTs, for example
.

One of the words I had done,
also with Transilapse, was this

open edition called The Weight
of the World, and the way it had

worked was it was based on the
idea that in life, we carry a

lot burden on our shoulders.

Right, like you know, it weighs
us down, it makes life very

hard, very heavy, but it's
because of the people around us

who can actually help share the
burden that can make our lives a

little lighter and easier,
right?

So, based on this concept, this
piece is called The Weight of

the World, and in the piece.

There's this woman with a lot
of weight on her shoulders And,

as an open edition, as people
buy the artwork, the weight on

her shoulders lessens right,
representing that, the sharing

of the weight, and so like.

Without the blockchain
technology, this piece would not

be possible.

And that is what I wanted to
show that, like I am using this

technology in a way that it
improves the art, and not only

that, that, like this art would
not be possible without the

technology that I'm using.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Okay, because people need a
reason to care And people need

to have that moment to where
it's like okay, this is truly

something different that art
before this couldn't accomplish

without this technology.

You know, now you tell pretty
deep stories from what?

just from the couple of pieces
that we talked about, what has

been like?

when did you kind of have that
desire to tell stories?

Because it seems very
intentional.

Speaker 2: This is actually a
really good question.

So I come with a background in
fashion photography, so I did it

for about 10 years And during
this period of my career it was

very much about aesthetic right,
like creating beautiful images,

oftentimes very, very
superficial.

And so the way I had pivoted
was I during COVID I figured,

okay, i kind of work with models
, i'll just make my own, pivoted

in the 3D, started creating
virtual models, and then 2021

came about.

It was just great timing
because I was, my models didn't

look like shit anymore, so I was
like, oh, i can use them now.

And so I started using them in
artworks, and that was really

how I just entered the space
that became an artist.

And so I remember the time
where, like I think it was like

mad to late 2021, when I was
thinking to myself like holy

shit, i think I'm an artist.

What does this mean?

Right?

Because, like so makes for
especially.

There's a lot of us artists in
the space where we come from a

three-layered background, where
we work for clients.

We do work for clients based on
damn wood boards, whatever they

want, and then we carry it out
with our own flavor and et

cetera, but it's still to get
paid by clients, so it's still

following somebody's viewpoint.

But I realized that I was
taking on this role where I

could suddenly just create
whatever I wanted and people

want it.

I was just like oh, i guess.

I'm an artist, though, and so it
took me down the route like

what does this mean?

Like what am I going to, what's
the message I want to bring to

the world?

And like it was a strange time,
because I mean, like to be fair

, it was a strange time in the
middle of COVID And, and I had a

lot of time to think, and so I
think the first, very first

piece I created with the
attention of the message was

this piece that was.

I remember Paris Hilton had
some random contest open call

thing for some women.

Speaker 1: I remember that And I
was like okay, let's try.

Speaker 2: And so I created this
piece where just a bunch of

women pushing each other up into
the air.

It was so funny because I
fulfilled so many of the super

cliche phrases of like, what is
it Like?

basically, we are pillars of
strength to each other.

We push each other higher and
higher, there's no sitting, etc.

I just also connected And so,
like that was the first piece, i

was like, hey, intention,
message really good.

And then after that, when I
started creating more, it just

became at the back of my head.

I was just like, do you have a
message for it?

And not always, you know.

Sometimes I like I have a
concept, i have a very strong

message, i know what I'm going
for.

And then sometimes I'm like you
know, i just want to create

something pretty.

I like pretty stuff And here's
something pretty.

So sometimes I have a very
strong intention, knowing

exactly what I want, and
sometimes just aesthetic

exploration, right.

So yeah, i like that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and it
goes to show the lack of

rigidity in your creative
process as well, Because it's

like I, oftentimes, you know, I
just so desperately search for a

meaning for something you know
and I'm like, you don't really

need one, You know, it's not
always there, It doesn't need, I

don't need to make one up to
validate whatever it is that I'm

doing.

It just, it just is what it is.

And if it sounds like that with
you, it's like if you want to

make something pretty, that's
really all that matters, And

then you make something pretty
and that's the extent of it.

Yeah, You know, so you're most
well, or I like I most know you

well for, like your 3D work.

I have, you know, seen some
like mentions and you obviously

mentioned it here of like having
a background in fashion

photography as well.

That's a pretty specific you
know sector photography as well.

So I'm just kind of like going
all the way back.

You know, like what I'm doing,
Like what, like why fashion

photography.

Speaker 2: I am a spontaneous
person, if you can't tell yet.

Speaker 1: Couldn't tell it yet
at all.

Speaker 2: So one day I had
graduated from college technique

and my so basically what
happened was my internship was a

bit shorter than the rest of my
friends.

So I was like yay, holiday
sooner.

But I realized I had a lot of
time with no friends, So just

spending my time walking around
and I saw some fashion magazines

, so flipping through it, And
then I looked at the images and

I thought, eh, can't be that
hard.

And then the next week I had
like a borrowed my friend's

camera and tracked.

My sister went to the studio
and there we were in the studio

and I was thinking for those
hours Like it's fun.

And then I just continued doing
it and then I somehow in the

building a portfolio and then I
started getting paid.

And then I started thinking to
myself that, oh, I should

register companies, I could get
paid easier.

And then I guess that was my
career.

Speaker 1: That was your career.

That's simple.

I mean, yeah, because I'm like,
okay, like because you also

clearly I say that as well
because it's really cool as

you've evolved in the web three
space.

It's like, you know, you did
like a photo shoot with Vogue,

you know, and you did, you know
you did a bang and ulcin

collaboration, and so it's like
it's there's always that like

hint of fashion, even though
it's kind of part of like a

previous, like a previous
creative endeavor, and I just

found that really fascinating.

Speaker 2: I think if you
actually look through my fashion

photography portfolio which
actually is still online is at

chevonwongcom And you look at my
NFT portfolio, which is

chevonwongart, you can actually
see a lot of similarities in the

way I compose my scene, the way
I like the scene, the way the

colors, et cetera.

It is basically what I had done
is just I had taken all the

knowledge I got from the past 10
years into a fashion

photography and just brought it
into 3D And then I would like my

models to say we are opposed to
have the same way And it's,

it's.

Yeah.

It was kind of funny how just
so many of the skillsets I have

was very transferable over the
3D.

It was just a change of medium.

Speaker 1: I like that.

Yeah, i mean I felt like I saw
the photography website at one

point but I didn't click on it
and I couldn't find it again.

So I'm glad that you I have
that up on my screen now.

No, it's cool And it's it's.

It's nice to see that those
skills are easily transferable

And sometimes I've often found
in my career, in my journey of

like you know, i sometimes I
don't know why I do something

and it doesn't feel like I'm
really going anywhere, but then,

once I go to the next step, i
realized that I was doing that

one random thing, or those three
random things, because those

were going to teach me the
skillsets that I needed to do

this really well.

And it's like, just because you
can't see it doesn't mean it's

not valuable, it doesn't mean
there's no purpose to it 100%.

Speaker 2: So, like the thing I
learned in polytechnic was IT.

I was in IT school, but there
was a small section in 3D.

So there you go, i'm doing 3D
now.

Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go,
so I got to ask.

I'm really curious.

Obviously, i'm a technology
enjoyer enthusiast, and so I

would love to, as a 3D artist,
what was your reaction to the

new Apple headset that just came
out Or that was just announced?

Speaker 2: I think it's super
fancy.

Yeah, i think it's exciting to
be able to.

You know, this is an example to
me is like technology means

that art can explore more.

There's just more freedom to do
more things, right.

So, like, as the technology
gets better, we can talk about

AR art that can support, like,
more high resolution 3D

characters.

So like, perhaps one day, the
high resolution that I have to

render out can actually be in
real time in AR.

Like, so to me, just so much
more exploration of all of that.

Right, i could have a human
just 15 meters high, because,

why not?

And so I'm excited.

I think that as we get closer
and closer to that space, that I

should also start figuring out,
like, how do I want to get into

the airspace and how do I want
to have my art shown there?

Because, like, skill doesn't
matter, right, you can do

anything as big as you want.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

I mean I remember yelling out
of excitement like three times

during that, during that
presentation.

I was like this is so cool.

Like I, like I saw all the doom
scrolling and all the the fear

mongering about how we're
becoming less human And I just I

don't subscribe to that belief.

Like I just I genuinely don't
subscribe to that belief.

I think this is.

I think we've never like here's
my take on on some of the

technology Like I you know
social media has no doubt done.

There's been some negative side
effects that have come from

that Like we're terminally
online.

You know it's like I have to be
like really balanced around how

much time I spend here, because
then I just forget kind of who

I am, you know.

But I look at these types of
technology as a kind of a

disruption of what humans have
always had inside them.

And when you look at I promise
I'm going to make a point here

but you know, like back in my
parents' generation or some of

the previous generations, and
you kind of hear like oh, just,

things just weren't like this,
things just like not like

everyone was respectful to each
other and there was a little bit

more, there was a little bit
more order and there was a

little bit more structure, and
it wasn't just so ridiculous.

And you got to wonder, though,
like at least me, i wonder, no

one else has to wonder, only me
But was that just stuffed down

inside, like, was it?

was it because we didn't have a
way to express ourselves, that

things were just the way they
were and people just bottled

emotions up and they bottled
their feelings, how they really

felt.

And social media comes along And
it's like this now everyone's

got a microphone, you know.

Now everyone has this
microphone and a lot of it,

especially in the beginning, is
very ugly.

You know where it's just like
oh my God, like you know, go see

a therapist instead of writing
all this on Facebook, you know,

or Twitter or whatever the case
may be.

So I view advancement as
technology of people getting

closer and not, i see this view
of like technology is like

making us less human.

I'm like this is making us more
human than we've ever been, in

my opinion.

Speaker 2: I 100% agree with you
.

To me, it's like when you talk
about, like, how social media

has allowed people say things
that they couldn't.

To me, technology has advanced
more than humans have evolved,

and what I mean by this is that
less than 50, no, actually,

right now there's still slavery
in the world And, like less than

50 years ago, women could vote
And we had all this like

horrible research that was still
well sometimes prevalent here,

but like more allowed than so,
like what has changed Other than

as the past 50 years, all of
this horrible shit that we think

is like so backdated is less
than a grandma away.

You know what I mean And so,
like you know, i feel like

humans have not evolved as far
as we thought, but technology

has improved dramatically.

But I also truly believe that
technology, the way direct, the

way technology has grown, is
really because of the human

wants to get closer, and what I
mean by this is that, if you

talk about how it has changed
throughout the years, we talk

about how matters were milled
from the sea, that took forever,

and that it improved into
having doing able to phone calls

, and then it improves to being
able to SMS text messages, it

improves to being able to do
emails it improves, to being

able to do what subjects improve
, to being able to video calls

and zoom calls, and what we're
doing right now is so that we

can get closer and be able to
talk in a way that is more

perhaps in real life.

So I feel like that is what a
lot of technology allows that I

am able to speak to you across
the world, like where you are

having like noon and I'm in the
middle of the night and we are

having an immediate conversation
where we are conversing like

this.

And so that's what technology is
to me is because we want to be

closer, right, and when you look
at the AR, if you look at the

future, it's all about talking
about how, when somebody

speaking from you, you'll see
like they're actually there to

close that physical gap.

But I also strongly believe
that the physical realm of how

things are will never be taken
away, right, because, no matter

what, after this conversation,
i'll be like I can't wait to

meet you in real life one day.

I spend like this Yeah, i spent
the first year in 2021 talking

to all my friends on Discord,
and the same promotion of like I

can't wait to meet you one day
keeps popping up right.

So I feel like that physical
component is never really truly

replaceable But, like the online
component, just helps to make

that want a little less painful.

Speaker 1: I love that.

That's beautiful, like I find
it very, you know, in my

physical and like people in my
local community.

It's not often the share that
you know this belief is not

commonly shared.

You know it's because I think
also it's easy to be fearful.

You know I do it all the time
I'm in fear.

You know like there's a good
part of the day, some days more

than others, where I'm in fear.

It's easy, it's like the
default reaction and it's easy.

Speaker 2: You're sure, just
these anxiety.

Speaker 1: I know it's anxiety
but it's.

You know, it's got a really
colorful star and a cute little,

cute little fox to make it less
Anxiety, but we're cool with it

.

That's right.

Yeah, we embrace our anxiety
here, you know you're.

But you're totally right though
, like I think that you know,

because I'm a millennial, you
know I well at the tail end of a

millennial, i'm 31.

And I'm in this like middle
group of people where, you know,

my parents were very much.

It's kind of like the last
generation of where, like, the

old way of thinking was still
relevant, and then, like, on the

other side, there's this like
half of me that's embraced the,

you know, the newer technology
side and the kind of the newer

beliefs and the new, i guess,
error that the internet ushered

in.

And so I find myself at
constant odds because, as

technology moves forward, if I,
if I look at this because I'm

like I love this, but it also
feels weird to go against what

you were taught as a, as a kid.

So it's very it's taken me
personally a lot longer to

really embrace and believe and
be very like comfortable in

saying that, like having a very
strong belief similar to yours,

like that's taken me.

I think I've always had it, but
it's taken me so long to get

there.

So, to your point, earlier,
like these, this wouldn't be

possible.

And I think if people let go of
a little bit of their beliefs

around the or let go of their
fear a little bit.

It's like, yes, i spend a lot
of time online but I found

people that are that I'm
supposed to be connected Like.

I found people that I genuinely
just want to give a hug to, you

know, and spend a lot of time
with, and I think that's so

worth it.

And then guess what We get to
go do these physical events Like

we get to go do and it makes
that, it makes that connection

so much stronger because you're
past the small talk, you're past

the do we have common interests
?

You're past the all these
different things, like we

clearly have common interests,
you know, and especially in this

space, it's very easy to find
that And I think that's like

when I found this, going back to
that feeling that I think you

know, that I know I felt, and
that you probably feel and still

feel, is that I feel like I
struck gold with a group of

people that I just didn't know
existed.

Speaker 2: You know, yes, i, i,
i couldn't agree more because I

remember telling, like my
communities and FTA, asia, and

so like this was the first
community that we started

growing together, and I remember
telling them, like you know,

it's what is really interesting
being the NFT space, because

here we are all stuck online.

But the people I'm meeting are
they hit two things that I love

already.

Firstly, they are created.

Secondly, they're open minded,
because you cannot be not open

minded and somehow jump through
the hurdles that takes the NFT

space and stay in it like a
crazy person, right?

So you have to be open minded.

And so to me, that was like, oh,
that is so attractive that

everybody I am meeting is based,
whether they are douchebag or

not, at least they're open
minded.

So, like, i really, really
enjoyed that.

But you know, like you said,
i'm also like you know, like

till and after, you do And and
and you know it's it's

definitely really interesting to
see the change.

And what the analogies I like
bringing up is how, where we're

growing up, our parents say do
not get into a stranger's car,

And now we literally book a
stranger's car to our house so

we can get in it, right, It.

Speaker 1: It's so wild And it
usually, you know, specifically

for me, i, you know, i'm sober,
but, like, not only is it most

people getting in a car with a
stranger, it's people getting in

a car with a stranger and
they're usually intoxicated,

like you think.

You think, you think about
where we've come, you know, like

, even like getting on the
internet like I, there was such

a resistance because I'm a gamer
, you know.

And so when Halo first came out
, it was like, don't trust

anyone on the internet.

They're not good people Like
you.

Just, you don't, you know.

I remember when I tried to go
to an eSports event when I was a

kid and my parents were, like,
you know, you're not going to go

to an event with a bunch of
strangers that you met on the

internet.

Play with you.

Yes, You know, like that just
thought was so foreign and just

like they're like, why would you
ever want to do that?

You know.

Speaker 2: And now that's
literally what we do all the

time.

Speaker 1: Literally what we do.

I love it.

Let's, let's drill into NFT
Asia a little bit.

You know how did that?

how did that come like what was
kind of the catalyst that

sparked you know that whole,
like what you've built here or

what you?

Speaker 2: what you've co-built.

So the founder for NFT Asia is
Clara, and she is a arts writer,

and so this was early 2021,
where she was told to write an

article about NFTs, cause she's
training economy also.

And I was like, oh okay, so,
like, so this person who is

training arts and economics was
supposed to write an article

about NFTs here in Singapore,
and during that time she reached

out to me because, well, there
wasn't a lot of artists to

choose from anyway.

So, she, she, she came to me,
we had a conversation, and I

think we just kind of enjoyed
talking to each other.

We enjoyed the conversation,
and she was telling me that, hey

, i have this small discord
group with a few other

Singaporeans who are talking
about NFTs.

Do you want to join?

So I was like, oh, okay, i
joined it, and and and, as I was

talking to that end of the
discord, i was telling them like

Hey, so I've been in the space
for about like one or two months

now, and I have noticed that
there's very few Asians in the

space, which is weird because
technically, we are a majority

of the world, and so it
shouldn't be the case that, like

, every time I see one, it's
just like Oh, you're right,

pokemon, like where were you?

You know, it should be like a
more common space thing, and so

so, with that, i was telling
them like why don't we open up

this discord, just so like we
can say, hey, you know, like if

you are Asian, come join us and
we can finally have a

conversation.

And I will kind of so, you know
, because, like a little bit,

how it was happening in the
middle of night, which, to be

fair, i'm a night owl.

It works for me, but it doesn't
work for a lot of people, right

?

So that's what we did.

We decided to open up the
discord and it was great.

It was just a huge influx of
people came in and we you know,

it's not just very, very casual
We started having game nights,

we started having really really
bad karaoke nights And people

came at the car on your discord
nights, just out of sick and

horrible, but it was hilarious,
i loved it.

And then we started realizing
like there's just more and more

people coming in that wanted to
be part of space And a lot of it

was very, very organic, like
whenever any of us got option

going on a bit, coming like a
bunch of us would join the voice

chat together.

We were tweeted together.

We had to help push the tweet
as much as we can And that was

also how we started getting
attention for more and more

people and groups and collectors
And, as we attracted more

artists in.

We also started to see a lot of
artists coming in from places

where English is not your first
language, right, and we started

to see how difficult it is for
them.

Like for me, i still find it
hard to talk about my art

sometimes and English is my
first language, right, i

couldn't imagine, so, i guess,
big Mandarin, but, horribly, and

I cannot imagine having to do
it without having to describe my

art in Mandarin.

It would be so sad.

So, yeah, so like I, i, i, with
that and my, we decided to do

states like within energy Asia,
where we have a private pitch

practice, so they were pitching
to us, just as a way for them to

practice it And for us to tell
them okay, you say sorry too

many times here And this part
you read both a bit, but other

than really good, now go out
into the Twitter spaces and

repeat exactly what you just
said, right, and so it's really

just to give them a bit of like
courage to do it, to go out

there, put themselves out there,
cause there's also the

stereotype which unfortunately
is kind of true, where a lot of

agents are just unwilling to
speak up when not called out for

, and it is very hard to send
out in the NFT space if you

don't try to get a spot for
yourself, right?

So it's also a lot of that.

So I started doing pitch
practice sessions and then,

because Clara is trained in the
art side, she started to help

with also like doing a workshop
on how to write your, your bio,

your descriptions, et cetera,
how to portray yourself, to

collect this, and, and then we
started getting more and more

opportunities as the world
opened up, where we're like, oh

man, everything is happening in
New York is really far, we

should do something there.

And so so we we started doing
physical events.

We had our very first
exhibition with super chief

gallery in NFC NYC last year And
really from then on we started

to do more and more exhibitions
around the world.

Like, we started getting more
opportunities.

And it is also interesting,
cause we are called NFT Asia And

a lot of times you have
different organizations or teams

or people who who want to
feature Asian artists but

realize that they don't know any
, which is weird and sad at the

same time.

But because we are NFT Asia, we
are happy to provide it for them

.

Like, yes, of course we know,
we don't know why, you don't

know, but we know many.

We know, yeah, and we will.

We will happily recommend them
to you, right?

And we started to get a lot of
opportunities like that where we

could push our artists to
places where the artists would

not know them and they would not
know the artists, right.

So, building that bridge that
way And it also one of the cool

opportunities we had was to work
with digital art fair in Hong

Kong, where we did a collab with
Sotheby's where a few of our

artists actually got auction on
their site too, and so it was

really just a bunch of things
like that.

It just kind of rolled ball
from there and Tada.

Speaker 1: Tada, i love that, i
mean.

But it goes to.

It all starts from a simple
idea.

Like usually the best groups or
the strongest groups or the

people that are obviously
desired or want to be a part of

are well known.

It starts with a really simple,
simple problem, and I'm really

glad that you touched on some of
the challenge, like I think

artists in general also face
challenges of like speaking up.

It's really hard to, but I
think, honestly, though, as a

human, it's really hard to just
like be bullish on yourself and

not be perceived as arrogant.

You know, and I think that's, i
think that's one of the biggest

common.

I know it's a hurdle that I
jump through all the time.

It's like, how do I just be
delusionally bullish on myself

but not come off delusionally
bullish?

You know, like I mean, i take
some.

there's been a few collectors
that like have voice, like if,

if you are not Proud or like
delusional about your own work,

why should I?

You know, like, why should I be
?

Initially that was like I'm
like, ah, is that right?

Like it just said.

but the more I started to
analyze my own uh, collecting

patterns and just like why it's,
it's the, it's the people who

have a story that they want to
tell or not tell, and just as

long as it's like authentic and
it's strong, like that's really

all that matters.

And so I think it's really cool
that you guys played a role in

doing that, because I think a
lot of people, they, you know

it's like cool, we'll do this
one thing for you.

But really the help, the
challenge that I see a lot like

it's it's it's building the
blocks and putting those

together and like figuring out
like okay, tell me exactly what

I need to do, you know to to
like get my work out there or to

like showcase it in this new
way.

And I love, as, as someone who
listens to their own recordings

and has to deal with, um, all of
the, all of the filler words

and some of the nonsense that I
say on a weekly basis.

you know, like I love that.

you do like vocal coaching as
well, like where it's like you

know what you said no too many
times here or you said sorry,

you should never apologize for
your work.

Uh, you know.

so I think that's like the real
work that most people don't

want to do and that it's it's so
needed here, like it's it's so

needed for people to do that,
and you obviously understand the

culture better than you know
someone like me, uh, you know

like way over here.

So like what better person to
do you know that than than this

group?

I find that really fascinating.

Speaker 2: Thank you, um, yeah,
i think it's, it's to me.

I am very thankful that I had a
career in freelancing, um,

where I had to represent myself,
and I think that's the one big

thing that really helped me in
this space of artists, where

many perhaps come from 95 jobs,
where they were doing commercial

artwork, right, and they never
had to represent themselves.

Um, and for me, because I had
to represent myself very early

on, i learned a very hard lesson
that doing good art and they

will come is just a lie.

It's just not true, it's, it's
a stinking lie and I hated it.

And and that you know, if
people don't know who you are,

they just can't hire you.

And I had to swallow that truth
very, very early on in my career

because, well, i wanted to make
money, i had to put myself out

there, right, and so it was
learning a lot of how to

represent myself, how to do cold
emailing and and do it to a

mound that it almost feels
cringe, but to continue doing it

anyway, and then to follow up
to a mound that feels cringe,

but still do it anyway, right,
because that's how it goes

Sometimes I have done.

You know, i actually did a
photo shoot with Billy Porter

when I was in New York and it
was one of my favorite shoots

ever.

And how did it happen?

was basically all I did?

was, before I went to New York,
i emailed to like a bunch of

stylists, a bunch of makeup
artists, a bunch of model

agencies and a bunch of like
celebrities in their ages and

said hey, i'm going to be in New
York this period.

I would love to do a photo
shoot for this person, or I

would like to collaborate with
you, like is it possible?

Yeah, and I would state like
this is what I've done and this

is who I am, and then I'll just
send it, and then I would just

follow up and follow up and
follow up and pull up like an

insane person, and, and and
Billy Porter's agent replied to

me and said okay, let's do it.

And that was really it.

Like you know, it's people
imagine this really glamorous

thing of like how, when sport
like shines on you and you get

opportunities in life, but often
to me it's really just really

just tedious glamorous shit of
sitting in front of your

computer setting like way too
many emails every time And and

and expecting, expecting no
replies in the morning.

Speaker 1: Yeah, It's a hard
pill to swallow.

I I very much went through that
.

You know, when I first started
the podcast was I started in the

eSports industry, you know,
before I came into Web three,

and I think that that is what
made this transition so easy for

me when I came here in 2021.

Because people in the eSports
industry didn't want to talk

about themselves.

I'm like the fuck human doesn't
want to talk about themselves.

Like that's like a natural
human thing.

Like we can't.

we love the sound of our own
voice.

And we were so self interested
and so self absorbed, like

people love themselves, you know
, but it was.

I had to get very similar to you
.

Like I had to find.

most of them had their Twitter
DMs closed, so I had to, like,

find them on LinkedIn.

I had to find their email.

I had to find, you know, an
assistant.

I had to find, you know, okay,
who do they interact with a lot

on the timeline.

Let me have them on the podcast
And then maybe that person will

also see that.

you know, and it's and it's not
disingenuous to do that, but

usually the people who were
associated.

I'm also interested in what
they do too, you know, so it's

like it finding creative ways to
do that.

That's what made this so easy.

When I came here, i was like oh
, people actually want to come

on.

Like who would have thought,
like what?

what a revelation.

you know that this, this, this
is what it is.

Speaker 2: So you basically you
basically had practice stalking

and now you don't need it as
much anymore.

That's right, I don't.

I don't need to try as much
anymore.

Speaker 1: Like it.

It's why, like that, i still
have to exert effort, but

nowhere near like what I used to
And it you know, it took me so

long to even realize that I
could name drop people that I've

had on the podcast.

I was so, so much a purist that
, like I had to like craft the

day I had nobody on before, like
I was.

Like I approached it all like a
newcomer every single time And

was so afraid that people would
think I was pretentious for name

dropping someone else And I
almost felt guilty doing that.

That took me so long to realize
.

Like, bro, you are working way
too hard.

Like people love names.

Speaker 2: That's okay, social
proof, yeah, yeah, i think for

me it was also something I
learned along the way that like

people need social proof, like
as much as people think people

think they have visionary, they
also need support that they are

in the right direction.

So, like I am like, fine, i'll
get you all the social proof you

need And I will tell you about
this, but I think it's also how

you bring it across, right.

So me it's like I had worked
with BNO and work with Vogue,

and to me as much as like I am
super proud of it.

I am also like so honored,
right, and so flattered that

they chose me.

And it's also something that I
make sure people know about it

That I'm a bit of an awkward
person and very darky, and I

have no problem telling people
that I got to do all this cool

things and I cannot believe I
have.

It is something that I am
forever grateful for, and the

way I got to doing it is usually
not as clever as most people

think.

So, yeah, you can do it too.

Speaker 1: That's right, you can
.

So that brings a topic of
interest.

We talked a little bit about
BNO and how I'm just perpetually

coping and like, as a recipient
of their emails, that I can

never afford any of their
products.

But I was really intrigued when
I saw you as a part of their

NFT collection And I want to ask
more a little bit of a broader

question As someone who has
worked with a few brands and

someone who has seen some brands
.

You transition to Web 3.

Like, what is a great way or
what are some of the best ways

that brands can approach the
transition to Web 3?

Because we've seen all these
different like.

We've seen Budweiser Flop,
we've seen Pepsi Flop, we've

seen all these like terrible
entrance.

But I thought Bang Olfson was
really tasteful.

Like I thought the way they
entered in was really tasteful,

and so I would, as someone who
was a part of that transition.

Who do you think does it really
well and what do you think?

like is a is a good example?

Speaker 2: Well, i mean, firstly
, like my main like thing point

is Bang Olfson because, like
they are the ones I work with

And, to be fair, they've been
really, really good to work with

.

And one of the things I had
really enjoyed about being an

artist in the NFT space is that
I get approached as an artist,

as opposed to previously where I
was approached as a creative to

follow a brief.

But right now people are
approaching me saying like, hey,

i like your art, this is our
brand, let's work together And

what do you think about this?

What do you think about that?

So they give me a lot of
creative freedom, which was

something I truly enjoyed.

And I have to say, like
whatever they gave me was

challenging.

It wasn't easy, i banged my
head against the wall a couple

of times for it, but like they
were super fun to work with,

they gave me a lot of freedom
And I felt like they really

tried to understand the Web 3
space.

Often It's not the brands that
come in.

I feel like they don't try at
all.

But you know, the space is very
, very difficult And, like,

whatever strategies you try for
one month might be absolutely

different the next month And
like the sentiment with the

market just changes like insane
Right.

So, honestly, like it is hard
for brands to choose to come in,

and I think it's brave for any
brand that has tried so far,

because the percentage of
success is low But they want to

do it anyway because they are
interested in it.

So I think that is really cool.

Speaker 1: Totally Yeah, and I
think some brands it just makes

sense And some brands it really
doesn't.

It just it feels like you're
just like man, you're just

you're trying way too hard,
you're exerting your effort in

the wrong way, like you're
exerting effort And it's like

this is not.

This is not just another hot
topic of the week or like of the

month where you can just kind
of like you know and I'll say it

, like Louis Vuitton did that
the box or whatever The trunk.

The trunk.

Yeah, that was so web too.

It was ridiculous.

You know, it was like pay a
bunch of people to write the

same thread that no one's going
to read And you know, like,

after the first thread, i was
like done reading it And it's

like that just doesn't work, you
know.

And an audience like this And I
just I look at examples and

you're right, though it's very,
it's regardless of, like, my

personal sentiment as a
participant, it is very brave.

I'm glad you said that Like,
for it helps like humanize some

of these people.

Like no one knows what the fuck
we're doing.

You know, like no one, no one
knows We act like we do, but we

don't.

But it's been, it's been
interesting to watch and I've

seen some brands do it with with
class and taste, and I think

for me, what I noticed is that
it's the brands that don't try

to do too much.

It's like they don't, they
don't try too hard to like fit

in.

They just find something really
simple that would work, you

know, or that would make sense
to their brand.

You know, like.

Speaker 2: Oh, the one that I
came think of that worked really

well was the Tiffany punks.

Right, They want the crypto
punks.

Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that one
that one.

Speaker 2: They knew the market
and they targeted really well.

But I mean to be fair, it was
LV, like they clearly weren't

targeting me or you or George
the space anyway, it's so like

it's.

Sometimes it's funny because,
like all this and and whether

they succeed or not, it's just
like it's.

The question is just is there
enough of the target audience

within this web tree space,
right?

Speaker 1: Cause like it's.

Speaker 2: It's something
interesting to see, like all

this big brands, like especially
luxury, luxury brands, come in

and they're going to have a
price point that is at a

luxurious date, because they are
like sure, well, we are luxury.

And so like, when people
complain about that, it's like

well, cause you're, you're not
the target market.

I'm sorry, i am not the target
market for many too, and I can

say, like I wouldn't afford the
NFT.

The same way I wouldn't afford
the NFT real life, like maybe a

key chain.

I just don't know what I'll do
with the key chain, right?

So like it's interesting to see
how people respond to all of

the spreads as though, like they
are the main target audience.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and, but at the
same but at the same time,

though, with Louis Vuitton,
though, they paid a bunch of web

three influencers that aren't
known outside of web three, and

it's like how could they expect
a different target audience when

those are the people that you
know what?

Speaker 2: I mean, i do, i do,
but I mean, like, i guess the

question is also like how many
dishes were they hoping to sell?

Cause like they only, like they
were only looking for that

amount of rich people.

Speaker 1: Yeah, true, true.

Speaker 2: Like they were never
looking at us.

Speaker 1: But no, that's very
true, they weren't looking at us

.

But I but like the example you
brought up with the punks, like

what Tiffany, like what
Tiffany's did, like you targeted

a peep, you targeted a group of
people who owned one of the

largest.

You know asset classes and you
know within the Ethereum

ecosystem, but like that was
just so smart.

And like people love punks,
like punks are historic, they're

a part of the Ethereum culture,
that was just genius.

Speaker 2: Indeed, but like if
any other brand did it, it'll be

a copy.

Speaker 1: Very true, it's so
hard, it's hard.

Speaker 2: I would never want to
be that person who was like I'm

a Web3 expert and I will now
give you advice, Cause like the

market's insane.

Speaker 1: It is Yeah, i mean we
, yeah, we and we all, and we

all hear a lot of us all the
time act like you know.

Brands should just know, or
they should just like dedicate

someone here, but the reality is
that I mean like we don't even

know.

Yeah, we don't know.

I mean, we don't know ourselves
, we just know when it's not,

when it's not done well, like
it's.

That's the hardest part is that
it's kind of like.

It's kind of like my
exploration of art as well.

It's like I don't know what I
want until I see it, you know.

So it's like it's really hard,
you know.

I know sometimes artists will
say like you know, what is it?

What does the market want?

And yada, yada, yada.

And it's like I'm always
against that question Cause it's

just like I don't know what the
fuck I want till I see it, you

know, and there's sometimes
there's pieces that come and I'm

like I didn't know I needed
that, but apparently I do, you

know, and because it was
something brand new that was not

a part of the current meta.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i agree with
that.

I think it's.

it's.

I think a lot of times.

I always encourage artists who
are down to actually try

shopping, because when you start
having this amount of money you

want to spend in your brain and
you start looking at art and

you start window shopping rates,
you can.

you start to see art that like,
without the money inside, just

looking at you like it's a
beautiful piece, but it's.

the question is now, when you
have this some money, is this

the piece you want to spend?

Oh, is this the piece that you
want on your wall, right?

And you start to realize that
you are rejecting a lot of

pieces that technically perfect,
it's just not you Right.

And that's why I encourage
people to do it, cause you start

to realize how sometimes,
really all about time and luck,

like, oh, this thing happened to
me and oh, my God, this looks

like my cat.

So like people bringing their
own personal stories of like and

like, i guess even extract, or
just like they could come up

with whatever story they want
about something.

And so if you do that exercise,
you start to realize that when

people aren't buying your art,
it is not personal at all, it's

just sometimes it is the way it
is.

Speaker 1: And here's the thing
is like we are in most.

I was having this conversation
with an artist friend.

Like most artists here are
brand new in their careers, and

I think the the 2021 bull market
like I think it did a lot of

damage, you know, to people and
set expectations like very

incorrectly around, like what
you know, the work should be

valued at like for the point
that people were at in their

career, and I think we're seeing
a lot of that today.

You know where it's like now
we're now.

We're like coming.

We've clearly come down from
that high And I just see that

and I'm like damn, you know,
sometimes like I look at that

and I'll just see.

I'll have like an internal
reaction, i won't say anything,

but at the end of the day, i'm
just like damn, like maybe they

were the victim of a
ridiculously inflated market.

That wasn't realistic And it
was, and it's like how can you

play?

It's like, you know, we were
some of the, some of the

decisions people were making and
the amount of money people were

spending on certain things was
absurd and to and no one's

immune to it Like we were all
buying dumb shit.

You know like so, um, yeah, i
find that so.

Speaker 2: I think there's
something to do with like

spending is about not spending
money in the real world because

you're all stuck at home.

Speaker 1: Oh my God, yeah, yeah
.

Speaker 2: It's like it's way
too much time, like way too much

time to ourselves as a whole,
spending like internet magic

money to like slow you're like,
oh you know, it's not money.

Speaker 1: It's not.

That's.

That's the problem with ETH.

Like I have such a hard time
stacking ETH because, like when

I, when ETH it's my wallet in a
spendable amount, i go spend it.

You know, like it doesn't feel
real.

Like it is real, but it also
doesn't feel real at the same

time.

Speaker 2: Oh my God, i did.

I am so thankful, as my husband
, because, like I always say, in

the family he is the one who is
the business guy, the finance

guy, the one who knows where
everything is structured.

And I'm fine.

Speaker 1: That's pretty.

I mean you say that as if it's
that's undervalued.

I mean I think that's a pretty
like.

I think it's a pretty like
bullish thing that you bring to

the table.

I mean I can't eat samsat Yeah.

Yeah, totally Yeah.

Speaker 2: But no, so like the
point I was getting at was that

even right at the beginning,
where I started making sales, he

would say like, okay, let's do
it with structured.

Every time you make a sale we
have to follow a certain ratio,

a certain ratio you can show a
certain ratio.

It goes into your shopping
wallet, a certain ratio goes

into a phone, a certain ratio
says equal to you, etc.

And I would be like, okay, but
we did that Right.

So, like, when the boom market
came it was the boom market it

was like, oh man, i was like
should we cash out?

Like, isn't it only like, why
is this?

because it was the way Miss
Gowee's only only forever after

right, and he's like we're
catching some out and then

you're putting some in the vault
and then you have, you have

some shopping money here, spend
the shopping money.

And and then, with the bear
market came and I was like, oh,

i guess you were right, yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 1: So I'm learning that
the hard, like I learned that

the hard way to.

So I'm glad you had that help.

It's going back to going back.

I want to go to a project that
you did with quantum the by

proxy.

That one was very that I loved.

I love that.

I love that collection.

When it dropped it was a cool
story and I called to that to

give some context to the
question.

you know we're in this world of
AI now where it's.

it's.

you know, obviously there's
fear mongering, but there's also

a lot of really cool things.

I'm again pro cool things.

I think it's really dope And
some of the work that's being

created right now is incredible.

Your work very similarly looks
to like, or this collection

specifically reminds me of kind
of like, this era of like post

photography that we're entering
into right now, you know.

so I would love to kind of know
your thoughts on number one,

that comparison.

but number two, like how do you
like?

Because I've seen a lot of
artists, specifically

photographers and I think for a
very good reason lash out

against post photography because
of the name, where it doesn't

imply like a photo, it's not
like a, it's like.

the whole idea is like this is
not a photograph, you know?

And so why call it post
photography?

So I would love to kind of know
your thoughts on that, on this

whole industry.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i guess post
photography kind of fits the

description for the people.

Well, sort of like to me, for
it by proxy was a combination of

photography and 3d, right, so
like there is photography

involved.

Yeah, i'll just talk a little
bit about the, the, the

connection, just to give context
.

So why was happened?

for this connection is called
by proxy and is a collaboration

with a photographer, friend of
my man, and she is a fashion

photographer and I was a
photographer, and with knowledge

other, for more than a decade
And so during this period of

time we've never found a way to
collaborate because I guess

there was also no need work.

We were actually eating out the
same pie.

So we were just friends And
we've always just and buy it.

Each other's works, our works,
are very, very different.

And so, with that in mind, when
I got into doing virtual models,

i got into the NFT space, i
thought, oh my God, like, would

it be cool to be able to
collaborate with her again.

Like well, actually for the
first time, and see what we can

do out of it.

And also there was the period
where I got to know Justin.

Like well, i knew Justin early
2021, but I knew about quantum

And I was like, oh, it'd be
really cool to be able to do a

job there.

So I reached out to my friend
and we talked about how we could

collaborate.

And because we were both girls
growing up in Singapore who grew

up in Singapore, and we want to
talk about, maybe, the history

we had.

And so, with Biproxy, the idea
of it is that often, when you

reflect and think about memories
, memories are often not exactly

reality the way it happened.

We see memories the way we want
to see it And a lot of it is

reconstructed by our brains in
certain ways, and sometimes we

remember scenes in a way that we
want to, even though that is

not the way it happened, right.

So, with that in mind, what I
created was she would create

these scenes where we remember
our childhood, with like the

different things that you do in
Singapore as girls, running

around just living life as a kid
.

And then what I did was then
it's like my virtual models into

them, and now we are
remembering our history and

memories by proxy through the
virtual model, and it is done in

a way that is hopefully
seamless, so it's hard to tell

when the treaties, when the
photography, ends and where the

treaties starts.

So in the same way, where you
think about memory, you don't

know when is it, which part is
real and which part isn't real.

There was the effect that we
wanted to give with the

photographs.

So, yeah, i guess post
photography sort of ish changed

with photography And it's that.

You know we never had a term
for what it was.

It was just something to do
with photography.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like an AI
version of what photography

could be Could be Like if I was
the AI, that's right.

It goes to beg the question.

Yeah, there's so many questions
that come from that.

I think that's really.

I'm glad you went into the by
proxy a little bit, because that

was something when I was
looking at it.

Yeah, you don't really know
where 3D begins and where

reality ends, or vice versa, and
so I found that very, very,

very fascinating.

And I think that you're right.

Like every time we tell a story
, it's a little bit different.

Each time we tell it It's it's
usually embellished a little bit

more.

Speaker 2: A little better each
time.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Yeah, yeah, you know, if it's
like a fishing story the fish

gets like three to four inches
bigger.

Speaker 2: That's right, You
know just feeding it with your

memories, right?

So it's just getting better,
like, oh, what should I do?

Speaker 1: That's right, that's
right, and eventually we get to

eat it, you know Yeah exactly.

Speaker 2: But yes, what you
were talking about people

reacting negatively against post
photography, i think it reminds

me of when people reacted
negatively against AI, which, to

me, i got it dead too.

I think it's very natural,
because the knee jerk reaction

to being somebody who creates
something and then seeing

something that can replace you
is scary right To me.

I've always seen myself to be
person who adapts to change very

well And I've always seen, like
you know, the story of like the

farmer and the seeds you know
he would use to put a seed one

by one into the ground and then
tractors came about and took his

job right, and so, for me, i've
always seen myself as a tractor

, and then when I saw AI pop up,
i was like holding a seed going

what the fuck?

just happened.

Speaker 1: I'm the farmer, yeah.

Speaker 2: Like how did this
happen, right?

And it's a very unpleasant
feeling, i guess.

For me it just got to a stage
of like I can hate AI, but like,

but does it really matter what
my opinion on AI is, because

it's just going to happen anyway
, just like when people had

opinions on the internet doesn't
matter what your opinion is,

it's going to happen anyway,
right?

So for me it's then figuring
out like okay, i just have to

learn it and embrace it and
figure out how to adapt to it or

get used to it in a way that I
can figure out ways I could put

it into my workflow.

And that's kind of just how I
see a lot of these changes.

Like there's a lot of reactions
that I just, i think legit or

not, mainly come from a knee
jerk reaction of like see it?

And if you are aware that it
comes from fear, then it's

taking the steps back to realize
that what's next right Cause

fighting against it, as much as
it is a very noble fight.

I personally, there are many
battles that I choose to fight

in my life.

This one, this one's not.

It Like this one, i'm like you
know what?

I am not fighting this fight I
will.

Speaker 1: So right, it feels
inevitable.

You know, and I think it's.

I like that.

I like that story that you,
that you mentioned, regarding,

like the farmer and the and the
tractor and the how you've

always viewed yourself And I've
typically viewed myself the same

way.

Where it's like, i view myself
as being very adaptable to

what's coming next, and I think
it makes sense And I think I'm

glad you shared that.

I'm glad you shared your
initial reaction, because I

think that oftentimes, as as
much as we're expressive on the

internet, sometimes it's still
hard to acknowledge those

feelings and like where they
come from and why we have them.

So, and I think that's real, and
sometimes I know with me

personally and I don't know if
it's like this with you where

it's like sometimes I feel like
if I acknowledge the fear, that

means I believe the fear.

You know, it's like if I, if I
acknowledge that it exists, that

means like that's what I
genuinely believe, And so I'm

just like, no, don't, don't,
don't, don't think that, like I

don't, i don't want to do that,
um, but every time I embrace

that which is what you did, it
it's like oh cool, like it

exists, but it's not, it's not
real, like it doesn't, it's,

it's fear.

Fear is not real.

Fear lives in the past and fear
lives in the future, but it

never lives in the moment.

You know, and based on you know
, you're kind of like learning

and your adaptation to that like
curious, like how that has,

like how you've incorporated
anything from.

Have you like, have you yet
incorporated AI into your

workflow And, if so, kind of
like how have you found a way to

make that make sense for you?

Speaker 2: So this is really um,
it's actually a frustrating

topic because after my
exhibition it's okay, i'll.

I'll go into it for you.

So, after my exhibition ended in
March, everybody started asking

me, like, so what's next?

And for the first month my
answer was sleep.

I'm going to sleep, like leave
me alone.

And then like, so it became
like two months, and now it's

the third one.

I was like, oh, i really need
to have an answer for it, right?

So, like, i think generally,
right now, the stage I'm at is

learning how to upscale myself,
and it's actually really really

difficult because, as I am doing
3D, there is like all this new

software is popping up and we,
with each new software, there

are new features popping up, and
like, it's really hard to be

kept up to date to all of this.

And then, in the need that I'm
trying to learn, stable

diffusion, which means if you
look at a tutorial that is two

months old, three months old,
the buttons are all different,

the UI UX is different.

Like the tutorial, be like, and
then you click here and you're

like where's the fucking button?

It's not there anymore.

So, like it's.

I think it's.

It's a very exciting space to be
in, but I'm also realizing that

technology is moving at just
insane speed.

Right, and going at the idea
that technology will always

exponentially improve is just
going to improve even faster,

right, and so to me, there is a
part where it's like I am trying

my best to be kept up to date
to all of this, but sometimes I

look outside and like they have
no clue And like here we are,

you know, like when chat GPT
came up, we are on Twitter, it's

even popped up, we are doing it
, we are using it, and then AI

come up, we're touching, we are
using it, like previously, with

the one ball, and it's just like
we, we try, we try it all while

it's popping off and we can't
keep up And like can you imagine

outside Like holy shit, like I
don't know man, like so it's,

it's.

It's both very exciting and kind
of terrifying, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally.

So what do you, you know,
outside of what's kind of like

your biggest fear around it?

You know, i think it's, i think
it's healthy to acknowledge the

fears.

Like, as much as like bullish
as I am on, you know, as much as

pro technology I am, sometimes,
i can often forget that like I

do have some valid fears.

So I'd love to kind of know,
like, outside of that, what are

some of the fears that you do
have?

Speaker 2: Well, i mean, like,
definitely a lot of jobs are

going to be replaced.

That means there's there's
going to be a lot of very upset

people, and I think that this
changes the wealth gap even more

, and I don't know.

I think it's also terrifying,
like I I don't have kids and I

don't really plan to have kids,
but I think of, like, how

terrifying it is to be a parent
right now, cause when you think

about how you know, if you look
at a kid now and the kid is on

their iPhone, you can still
visually see what they're doing.

Right, you give you look at the
AR goggles.

you give it 10 years, you give
it 20 years where you can no

longer visually see what your
kid is seeing.

How do you monitor that?

And when you are somebody who
is not technically savvy, your

child is going to live in a
whole different universe that

you have no access to, And I
think that terrifies me for the

future generation.

right, You have a generation
growing up where parents don't

know how to parent them because
they just live totally separate

lives.

Yeah, I think that's scary.

Speaker 1: I mean.

I think we're even seeing that
right now.

You know different versions of
that, yeah.

Speaker 2: But we are seeing,
like the, the, the easy version,

like you can still come.

Speaker 1: Yeah, this is easy
mode.

Speaker 2: Yeah, this is easy
mode.

Um, when, when they literally
live their whole lives online.

that and you have no access to
that, like, how do you talk to

your child?

Speaker 1: Hmm.

Speaker 2: Hmm.

Speaker 1: That's a good
question.

Yeah, that's very it's.

It's very, it's very valid.

I've often thought about that
because, you know, obviously the

thought of kids like definitely
comes to mind and it's like wow

, like you know, with all the
things that we have going on

today, like how is that going to
change?

I, i look at this.

I it it's kind of a weird
positive view on a very tragic

event.

And I'll explain, like, what I
mean by that.

Like I, i, you know, i look at
my life and I'm like the only

time I'm forced to change is
when I'm in immense discomfort.

You know, like usually that is
the catalyst for me to change,

yeah, and so, with that being
said, you look at that from a

macro scale.

Like we are kind of, we're in
this place at least my viewpoint

is that we're in this place
where there's growing discontent

, there's growing distrust
within.

You know, the powers that be.

There's a lot.

No one, no one knows how to
listen, you know.

No one knows how to converse,
have a conversation without

jumping, jumping down someone's
throat.

No one knows how to debate
anything anymore, You know.

And so you look at kind of all
of this like what is this

heading towards?

You know, and I think, in the
short term, i think it's going

to be, in a sense, very, like
you said, very uncomfortable and

very challenging.

But I think that, whatever this
comes to, it's almost exhausting

to live in today's society
because, like there's so many

things we have to keep up with,
there's so many things that we

have to verify, that we have to
vet, like there's there's just

this absent.

There's just this like absence
of trust in in the world that we

live in today, which, going
back to a bullish case on

blockchain technology, that's a
great thing, because we don't

have to trust, you know, the
blockchain is code and it's

numbers and it's math.

We don't have to trust that.

We know that it works, it's
absolute, it doesn't have any

ulterior motives.

So, side note, quick aside, but
going back to this is like,

okay, you know, i think we're
kind of heading towards like

this, like weird implosion, you
know, as a society where it's

like Geo, geo, like across the
whole world, like this is not

just one specific place, this is
everywhere, and I think that I

don't know what happens when
that happens, you know, and will

all the technology still matter
?

Will the accessibility be
better?

Will you know?

because I obviously have
problems like concerns about the

wealth gap as well.

I was.

I was kind of introduced to
that a little earlier from a

professor in college that I had
and that was like what motivated

me to start doing what I'm
doing today, you know.

So it's like I love technology.

I'm going to be on the right
side of this, you know, for when

it eventually does happen.

So, yeah, i mean I'm fearful,
but I'm also like, if I look at

it from a human, obviously in
the short term I think it's

going to be very uncomfortable.

But I look at it from, if I can
detach myself, and look at it

from a longer term perspective
of like where, like, what does

this mean?

I'm actually very hopeful, you
know.

Speaker 2: Like I think, yeah, I
think it's history is very fun

to read about.

I just don't want to have to
live through the things that get

the history books.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2: I mean I just, want
to read about them.

I don't want to live through
them.

I don't want to live through a
pandemic that will shut down for

two years, like they was insane
And I didn't really want to

live through it.

But you know that sort of thing
, right, just like yeah, humans

will probably figure a way to
survive, because we're like

can't do this, they won't die.

Speaker 1: But you look at like
the web three industry went

through a bull run because of a
really traumatic event globally.

Speaker 2: True, true, which is
super weird too.

Like, like, like, do you have
friends that you're speaking to

where?

it's always weird because, like
, people talk to me and they'd

be like, yeah, so like it was
really, really hard.

then, like, like you know, they
couldn't do their jobs, they

got fired And I was just having
the kind of my life which was

just so hard to.

yeah, it was.

you can't say that because,
like you'll be the asshole, so

you're just like yeah, yeah, it
was hard.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i would, but I
was kind of, you know, i was in

a spot where I was like
moisturized, thriving, meeting

new people, you know like in my
own lane, you know, like it's

just like I like.

For a while I felt so guilty
that I had this, but I'm like

yes, at the same time, though.

At the same time, though, i
never felt comfortable in the

world that existed before this.

So I'm like, and then.

So I'm like, you know what,
though I was never comfortable

before this happened.

So you know what the people
that were, now they're in my

shoes, you know, and now I'm
like enjoying myself, and I'm

not going to feel guilty for
enjoying myself, for embracing

exactly who the fuck I am, and
like being curious about exactly

what I'm curious about, and
like pursuing that with like,

like, with just this momentum
that I've never carried anywhere

else before, you know, you know
it's interesting you say that

because actually, basically,
when I entered the space was

when I when I turned dirty right
And it was a turning period

where I felt myself get a lot
more comfortable with why.

Speaker 2: I also felt myself
get a lot comfortable in

portraying who I am as and not
being shy about it.

I'm like, yes, i am not that
cool, i'm really awkward and

that's fine And just being okay
with it, right, and then just

running with that, being willing
to show my personality as who I

am on Twitter and actually
being accepted for it.

I think the last two years has
been a really big turning point

for me on that, yeah.

Speaker 1: That's incredible
Like and that's that's so cool.

And from from people who are
historically awkward in the

normal, whatever the fuck world
was before this.

You know that.

I mean what?

what a cool thing.

You know the again technology
like doing something where it's.

It's a positive force, like
it's bringing people together,

but it's also allowing people to
become their true self.

Like I look at also someone
like these you know he's, his

face is not on social media, yet
the power of pseudo, like being

anonymous or pseudonymous,
allows that person to become

more of themselves.

When they're in the place where
they know they're curious about

, they're doing exactly what
they want to do, you know, and

and there it opens the door for
that barrier to be dissolved,

you know.

So what a blessing.

Like again, i used to feel
guilty about this shit, but I

don't today.

I'm like you know what?

No, like I'm not as someone who
cares so much for other people.

I'm like I'm gonna put myself
first in this one and say I'm

really enjoying it, you know,
and also it's been.

I'm not sure if this you do
this as well, but like it really

helps when people eventually
become curious about something

They know I'm just so they know
I'm willing to help.

I'm not going to go help people
that don't want to be helped,

but I don't ever shut up about
what I do.

So people are very apparent
that people know, and so it's

kind of cool.

I've had experiences where, like
, they'll come to me and ask me

questions when they finally find
the reason to care.

You know, they know who they
can go to, because this is about

attraction rather than
promotion.

You know, it's like this is
about attracting people, not

shoving this down their throat
and saying, like that, you need

to do this, you need to do this,
Like everyone's going to learn

on their own time.

You know, but when you are
ready, i'll be here and I'll be

willing to help you.

But I'm not going to help you
before then because I'm going to

put myself first and go spend
my time with my magical internet

friends making magical internet
money and collecting magical

internet pictures There we go
And when they come we'll know

that the bull market's back.

Right, like I mean yes, like we
will know.

we will know when we are so
back.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know the
specific friends will come to

you asking about it.

Right, like certain friends,
you're like, oh, they've always

been open to it.

And you're like, but the bull
market's back.

And then certain friends,
you're like it's a talk, the

talk.

Speaker 1: That's right.

That's right.

Yeah, i'm yeah, yeah,
absolutely.

And it's like I'm waiting for
all of the people to say like,

oh, you're just lucky.

And it's like if only you knew
what we had to go through the

FTX, fud, the SEC, FUD, you know
the all the shit that's going

on right now.

like, when that happens, like I
feel like we will have earned

it.

Like we like I feel we have
earned it.

Speaker 2: It's.

It's so funny because, like, i
entered the space in 2021, right

.

So my husband he's been in the
space since 2017.

He would tell me about crypto
during our breakfasts And I will

be the supportive Y where I
just go and make affirming

sounds.

But he would just tell me about
it anyway, and I kind of just

absorbs any in my head somewhere
.

And I remember where I first
entered the space.

You know, it was one of the
lines that I found very funny

was the you get to be your own
bank And I was like, oh my God,

they sound so cool.

I feel like I had to send my
own transaction on Metamask And

I'm like you know what?

fuck?

sales sovereignty This fucking
scary.

I hate it, it's so scary.

It is so scary, but but then you
know, i feel like a lot of the

crypto ethos makes a lot of
sense as you stay in the space

and you start to grow in the
space and you see what events

happen, right, like I remember
when the Canadian truckers

protest was happening And then
Canada was like Nope, you don't

get to get your access to your
bank.

It was the first time where
cause I grew up in Singapore

It's very safe, yeah, very
stable, very.

Basically, we're in a bubble
And and when I saw that happen,

it reminded me that, oh shit,
first world country.

I see now why self sovereignty
matters.

You know stuff like that.

And why was I going with this?

I was going to reply on
something Oh, yes, anyway, as I

ended the space, so, like I
remember coming in, i was just

like, oh my God, self
sovereignty, decentralization,

problem, that's all this
beautiful thing.

And then 2022 came And I was
like when the bloke said,

something happening, i'm just
like.

I was like this is a little
dramatic.

Speaker 1: Just a little bit.

I heard someone say I heard
someone say so.

It was yesterday, it was a
tweet where they were like in

crypto, you get the extremes of
everything.

You get the extremes of
everything, like whether it's

good, whether it's bad, whether
it's innovative, whether it's,

you know, you get the extremes
of everyone Because this is like

, this is like the bleeding edge
of where the world's headed.

You know, i would say some of
the AIs may be bleeding edge.

This is more like cutting edge,
you know, but you get the means

.

You get the edge cases and mean
means.

You get edge people, you know,
that are involved.

So I, but to your point, though
, to your point, though it those

point, those like lofty fun
buzzwords.

I mean, i don't know about you.

I'm so glad you brought up the
Canadian trucker example,

because that was, you know,
obviously I was involved and I

was, you know, here in the space
.

But when that happened, it was
like, oh, like this is a real

world example of why this is
important, because I just

believed other people that I
trusted, you know, and I was

like, okay, cool, like maybe,
maybe this, maybe, maybe there

is some truth to this, maybe,
like you know, it sounds good.

It feels good, so I'm just
going to go with that for right

now.

But like seeing that happen in
real time.

They literally just put it,
pushed a button and people

couldn't use their money.

Speaker 2: That's terrifying,
yeah it's terrifying, yeah, yeah

.

And then, like, there's this
competition about CBDCs, right,

cbdcs, yeah.

Yeah, and it's a little scary
because, as a Singaporean, when

I think about the dystopian
future, yeah, no one's going to

blink when it takes over
Singapore.

Like everybody's going to be
like oh, it's our money.

You know now, cool, it's not
even that far faster.

Imagine Singapore is going.

Okay, bro, like sure no problem
.

So like I think it becomes just
so clearly like why people talk

about self sovereignty, because
if this is the future, where

literally they can decide
everything you have right how

you spend it, it is kind of
scary And to have this up-down

option is very important Yeah.

Speaker 1: It is, it makes it,
it makes it worth it, it makes

it there's like, again talking
about incentive, you know like

what incentivizes humans to
adopt new things?

It's like that, whatever that
was like, that is a great

incentive.

Speaker 2: That doesn't scare
you Like that's alarming, you

know, if you, yeah, yeah, I
think it's also like basically,

when people talk about crypto
and blockchain, they often talk

about utility, right, but when
it comes to cases like this,

like the most important utility
for crypto currency is just the

opt-out option, the fact that
you get the opt-out.

Yeah, you don't, you're not
like.

Speaker 1: You have the freedom
to choose what path you want to

go down.

Like and I think that's
incredibly important, you know,

to where people aren't
subscribed to.

One, you know, again goes back
to the calls, back to, like, the

society that we lived in before
the internet.

It's like there was only one
way to do things, you know.

But what the internet allowed
is for people to choose like.

Choose your own adventure, you
know.

Do you want to go down this
path where it's like more, it's

less stable, it's more unknown,
there's, you know, less

certainty, or do you want to
continue to do this?

And they're both.

The best part is that both
options are still available.

So it's like this does that,
but with money.

Like, we've only been used to
spending money one way.

This gives you another way to
use your money And you get to

choose.

Choose your own adventure,
choose your fighter.

Yeah, so this conversation has
gone all over the place and I

love it.

This has been great.

Siobhan, i want to start
wrapping things up here.

You know, and kind of start to.

You have a beautiful website
and I really love something that

I haven't seen that I want to
absolutely call out, and flex is

on your website.

You literally have updates, and
I think that's such a great.

That's such a great thing, like
you put.

Like, this is what I'm doing.

Here is where I'm going.

Here are the links.

I think that's just brilliant
And I think that's such a great

way to, yeah, not have to be on
Twitter all the time and be.

You know just, and it's really
simple.

So, again, my brain's a little
mush, but I just wanted to call

it out, and so I want to just
maybe ask like I know you get

asked a question a lot in NFTs
We are perpetually obsessed with

what's next and not what you've
done, you know.

So I'm not going to ask that
question.

I'm going to, i'm going to, i'm
going to do a little, i'm going

to add an extra layer What is
coming up that you're the most

excited about?

Because you have a lot going on
.

Speaker 2: There are things that
I am excited about that is so

exciting that I'm not allowed to
share.

Speaker 1: That's a perfect
answer.

I love that.

I love that Cool.

So, outside, so would you say,
like, when it comes to people

that like want to discover you
and discover your work, would

your website be like the best
place to go to first, or would

Twitter be first?

Where would be the best place?

Speaker 2: I would say my
website is great.

You're actually looking at the
most updated version.

I just finished updating it
about an hour ago, about, well,

two hours ago, before the
podcast started.

I was just finishing all the
finishing touches, making sure

the updates are in place, and
the way I structured it is

really just so if a collector's
come by, it's just.

I assume collectors don't have
time to stalk every artist

they're interested in, so for me
I was trying to put up enough

information such that if there
was ever any interest they could

find it very, very easily.

So there's the updates when they
kind of try, and exactly what

I've done over the last few
months and what I'm up to, and

there's also the project
insights.

We go into my brain, a little
like why I do certain things and

how I structured my art and why
I choose to do it this way or

that way, or why I choose
technology in a certain manner

as opposed to the other, and so
like if they want to understand

the way I think on how I create
my art mode.

There is that section And then
there's also the art section,

which really categorizes my art
in an easy way so that people

can find which is an addition
which is one of like a

collection piece and which is
like a one of one piece And also

within that, what is available
and what's sold, etc.

So it's just to make people's
lives easier.

So that's the best way to learn
about me and to know what art I

have available.

And if you want to be kept
updated to my everyday nonsense,

there's on Twitter.

Speaker 1: Thank you for that
breakdown.

Yeah, i mean this is laid out
beautifully and you're exactly

right, like that's the challenge
of collecting art as well as

like it.

just there's so many different
places, There's so many

different places to go, and
there's so many things that

aren't known And there's so many
it.

I love that.

You just like reduce the
friction on that front, you know

, and it looks very, it looks
very well done.

So thank you again for spending
your time.

I know it's like nearly 2am
there, so thank you for three.

Okay, oh my god.

Yeah, okay, i'm glad you're a
night owl.

Thank you for being so flexible
.

I've had an absolute blast.

This has been a lot of fun.

But yeah, siobhan, thank you so
much for coming on again.

Thank, you.

Speaker 2: Thank you for having
me.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Thank you for joining us on
another fantastic episode of the

Shiller Curated Podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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