Speaker 1: GM.

this is Boone and you're
listening to Vaulted, a Web3

podcast from the Schiller
Archive.

This episode was originally
recorded on September 23rd 2021

and features Ben Strauss, a
lens-based artist and co-founder

of Transient Labs.

Amidst the frenzy of the 2021
bull run, we dive headfirst into

a whirlpool of topics, from his
past as an aerospace engineer

to the madness that is PF,
emania and the use case of

fractional NFT ownership.

We also get an inside look at
his inaugural dynamic art piece,

a groundbreaking endeavor that
has become the bedrock for one

of today's most innovative smart
contract companies in the Web3

community.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs to
discuss.

Now time to grab some coffee
and dive into this whirlwind of

a conversation with Ben.

Speaker 2: One of these days
you'll be able to pay with some

your Metamask wallet, I think.

Speaker 1: No kidding me.

I've already seen some examples
of that happening, where there

was a guy who used a public
restroom and paid an Ethereum.

It's way overpriced, but the
fact that you're able to do this

is pretty incredible.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I would
do it if someone let me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, when you
think of terms in Ethereum over

fiat, it's, it's it doesn't seem
like much.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, i think it's
definitely skewed my

perspective of the US dollar
being in this space, just like

the volumes that we trade in and
the things that we buy for

thousands of dollars that we
would never put your own US

dollar money into.

Who?

would ever buy a JPEG for not
much money, but I mean we would.

Speaker 1: You know, it was
funny that these was actually

holding a space yesterday and
they were looking at some of the

token, you know, like token
frames and like some of the

physical displays for NFTs, and
he's just like, oh, yeah, it's

only like one eighth.

They're like, yeah, okay, like
it's like 4,000.

It's like it's hard to like
keep that into perspective, like

the average person is currently
listening.

It's like, yeah, we talk in
terms of eth.

It's like, oh, it's only two or
three.

That's like that's close to
$10,000 if it's two eth.

Speaker 2: I know, yeah, all my
friends and all my coworkers

think I'm crazy.

I'll be like dude.

check out this like pixelated.

This is like back when I bought
40 strawberries.

I don't know if you know that
project.

I do, i do.

Yeah, it's like look at these
pixelated strawberries I spent

like four grand on, which is
crazy.

I mean, even my.

even myself, like four months
ago, would be like I would never

imagine I'd be spending that
kind of cash on that kind of

stuff.

But what's the point?

It's funny.

Speaker 1: The irony of it all I
think that's what I like about

this community is that there's a
lot of the people who are in

here and the people who have
sustained are people who have

done like a lot of research, you
know, and they've done like

there's a lot of work that goes
into this, but like, on the

surface it just looks like memes
and like memeing people who,

like, are trying to like you
know shit on the industry or

like it just it looks like we're
all we are having a great time,

but like, underneath that
there's hours and hours and

hours of research behind this.

Oh yeah definitely are.

Speaker 2: It's a hard
conversation to have with people

that are in this space.

Yeah, because it is.

you know good, i was gonna say
the go to is everyone's like

well, why would you ever spend
that much money on a JPEG?

I can go screenshot it and I
have it too.

now, like it's not how it works
.

It's a one of one digital
scarcity.

That's where I usually lose
them.

Speaker 1: So yeah, I try.

what I try to do is I try to
give like a real, like an

example of like if you want a
car and you just go to the car

lot and take it, does that make
it yours Right?

Speaker 2: Yeah, like that's a,
if you, you know yeah, i use the

Xerox example with baseball
cards.

Okay, you can Xerox copy a
autographed baseball card and it

could look identical, like you
could print it on cardboard if

you wanted.

Yeah, but it's not the original
.

Speaker 1: No, no, and I, when I
try, like I actually I had a, i

had a friend, it was in a, it
was in another will not discord,

it was in a gilded server and
he was bringing up some really

valid concerns and like I, like
I enjoy when people bring up

arguments or like bring up
hesitations or bring up, you

know, like resistance, because
like it's not, like we don't

need just an echo chamber And if
we, if we're not bringing in

these conversations, if we're
not having this dialogue with

people, like you know we're not
going to improve because there's

some really valid concerns that
people bring up, you know right

, and one thing that you know
actually is I guess really I

lost my train of thought but
like what's, what's, why was it

like in having these
conversations?

that actually helps me like
describe it even better, because

there's a few things you have
to believe in before you kind of

get to like flipping JPEGs.

you know there's, there's a lot
of like and it's not tribal

knowledge, because it's all out
there, like I.

like tribal knowledge means
that there's gate, it's there's,

there's gates in between you
and the knowledge.

But there's some things that's
like if you don't believe in,

like a decentralized economy or
at least some version of it.

this isn't going to make sense.

Speaker 2: Right, exactly.

Speaker 1: At the core, at the
core of everything.

So you know there's that, there
is, you know there's the, the

trust system like how many times
have you been fucked over by a

you know?

oh my, i'm not sure if he
understands words yet, but I'm

sorry.

Speaker 2: I mean he's sorry.

He's only three months old.

I'm sure we he'll be fine.

He's not going to be scarred or
anything.

Speaker 1: You know.

but like I've had my fair share
of like people messing up

payments and like not getting
paid when I'm supposed to, and

like things being short and like
there's been a lot of things on

my end where it's like, you
know, there's a lot of reasons

for me to trust the system and
to believe in it, more or less,

and then the rabbit hole, you
know, goes further and further

and further.

But I'm not sure if that's been
your experience, but, like with

people that I know, it's like
if people haven't experienced

that kind of like pain or that
like discomfort or that just

that you trust someone and then
it goes, it just doesn't happen.

I'm not sure if you've had any
experiences like that.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

I mean it's got its own, like
it's one of the most secure

currencies, i think, as far as
like the currency stability goes

.

But the part I think where
people let down their guards is

all the attack factors.

you can have the people getting
in and, you know, taking your

currency like not the actual
currency itself being

compromised, but the or like the
structure really.

Yeah, people definitely
breaking the wallets, and I mean

you hear about all the time.

So I think happened to me.

Yeah, he gained trust in a lot
of ways, but then you got to be,

you got to watch your, you got
to watch your ass a little bit,

yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, the way it
happened with me was, you know I

was, i was reaching out to
collab, the collab land bot,

support on Telegram.

And I've never used Telegram,
like I hardly know how to, how

it works, how it functions And I
followed the instructions.

I reached out.

I sent a message.

I said, Hey, i'm having some
issues to connect in my hardware

wallet, you know, yada, yada,
yada.

And they said they'll never
reach out to you first.

So you know I DM.

But then someone DMed me.

I didn't check who that was And
I automatically just assumed

that was support.

So there was already a layer of
trust that was there.

And then I went to this website
and literally, not on my

hardware wallet but on my, on my
hot wallet like literally

entered in my seed phrase, like
like point blank, entered it,

you know.

And then then obviously there
was an error that came up.

It didn't connect like it was
supposed to.

An hour later all my ETH was
gone.

You know what did you end up
losing there?

Speaker 2: About point four or
five, okay, So you weren't

storing, like your valuable
collectibles and all that or so.

Speaker 1: It actually had all
my collectibles in there, but it

was I don't know what, like
they were running.

I don't know if it was just an
Ethereum.

You know withdraw, but like I
was able.

But like.

I was able, i had.

I had about a point, two, five
in my other, in my hardware

wallet, enough to like transfer
micro transactions, to like get

the NFTs out, like pay the gas,
to like.

You know what I mean.

And then you know actually how
I found.

You know, like I'm not sure how
I found.

I found you through the photo
fund, through, you know, through

that project And through the
first game.

I was actually airdrop the
second round of two NFTs.

Two members made bids on it
because I didn't have enough to

really play the game And then I
just got all my ETH back.

That's good.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah, that'll happen in like a
week.

There's some crazy stories.

Yeah man, Just for your
listeners know why I keep

looking down.

I have a mini dinosaur down
here.

Let's see if we could.

He's just like attacking his
bouncer.

He's making quite a bit of
noise right now.

I might have to pick him up in
a second.

Speaker 1: That's good man.

Now it adds a little.

I mean, I think we've all
gotten used to it working from

home and doing this remote, like
anything, remote is just.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true, he's
deciding to want to just be

really vocal right now.

Is he coming through on the on
the mic?

Yeah, he is a little bit.

Speaker 1: He is a little bit.

Speaker 2: It's funny, though
Good for a second.

there, there you go You good.

Yeah, some people get, even get
their ledger compromised.

the stories that I've heard And
I won't name any names, just

but yeah, the social engineering
people do now is pretty crazy.

the trust they build like
they'll collaborate with you,

you know, collaborate with you
on these projects.

for like two weeks We were
actually selling pieces and

they're giving you ETH from the
sales.

So they build up this trust and
then one day.

OpenSea doesn't work all of a
sudden, and so then they then

they give you to their tech
support or whatever and somehow

get you to screen share.

Never screen share anything
with strangers over the yeah

yeah, especially considering
with your hardware wallet.

And then they the scheme that
impressed me the most like the

scammers are getting pretty
creative, so they had them

screen share so that they could
capture the QR code And then

they were having them do these
small test transactions right,

and telling them that that
you're going to get a bunch of

ledger approval.

You know you got to sign on the
ledger and these are just get

past transactions, but really
what they're doing is in the

background.

Every ledger that you're
signing, every transaction

you're signing, they're just
moving your apes and your

Ethereum out of your ledger in
the background.

Speaker 3: It's pretty crazy,
wow Hold on, i'm going to pick

them up, really quick.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, that see, that was the

part I didn't really understand.

I mean, that is, i read about
that, of course, but that is a

oh, it's impressive.

Speaker 2: Honestly, i mean yeah
, yeah, life is different with a

baby.

I'll tell you that much.

Speaker 1: I'm sure you know,
like I know, like every everyone

I know that's had kids like
well, hello there, guy, everyone

that I know is that the feeling
when, when that child is born,

like the entire world looks a
little bit different is what

I've heard.

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can't.

This is you don't have like
freedom of time anymore.

You just get these little
moments.

Yeah, like, all right, we got
20 minutes, like you don't have

a favorite all day to just do
whatever, and you got to really

plan things out.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i mean my
, you know, like, like, i had

like the closest thing I have to
, that is my dog and she, she

instead of, instead of just kind
of like.

She's not like the easiest dog
to work with because she's

highly aggressive towards other
dogs and requires a lot of

training, a lot of like
reinforcement, a lot of like.

You know, i can't.

It gets to the point where I
actually leave my phone in the

house when I go take her on a
walk, just because, like, i've

been on my phone once and she's
caught me off guard because

she's really smart, she's really
fast and she, like you know,

yanks the lease right out and I,
you know, i just I can't do it,

but she requires a good seven
to eight, she between, oh,

probably between five and seven
walks a day.

You know, is yeah, yeah, it's
nuts, um, because we've had

instances that are not the most
um, they're not the most fun to

deal with, especially with
another dog involved.

You know, definitely So.

Speaker 2: But you know, i've
I've heard that the amount of

patience that I have is not
going to per even prepare me, or

it's going to prepare me a
little bit, for what having a

kid is going to be like, you
know you just get used to like

doing things with one hand, like
you get really good, and then

you uh, i don't know, yeah, you,
just you take advantage of

every moment you get and
everything just turns into a

just a a kind of a funny joke,
because even during a podcast

you're holding a baby, just
making sounds.

I can't tell you any Twitter
spaces I've done for like drops

and like I'm on stage with
hundreds of people listening and

just he's in the back, like on
my shoulder like this, just

blabbering away.

Speaker 1: But so yeah, yeah,
it's but it's the, you know, at

least in spaces you can't like
it's, you know it's.

It's kind of unexpected that
when they hear, when they hear

the kid, because they don't, you
don't know what anyone's doing

Like these was like trying to
mow the grass on one of his

spaces.

I heard.

Oh really, just like it didn't
work you know what I mean.

Yeah that's funny.

I think people are just getting
more accepted.

Speaker 2: Accepted of just like
working in home with all the

chaos that you were saying
earlier Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, you know the
job that I recently just

departed, like I was, i was at a
call center and I was on the

phone all day and you know she
barks at every dog that comes by

, every UPS truck that comes by,
like you know, and they people

just got used to it.

You know it's just people got a
lot more accepting over the

pandemic when it came to that
because we had no choice, right,

yeah, exactly, you know, yeah,
man, but want to hop in dude,

like I know we kind of we went
off on a little bit of an injury

, a little bit of security
banter, a little bit of a small

bit of culture here, but like
want to give, want to give the

audience who doesn't know you.

I want to have you introduce
yourself and like tell us a

little bit about who you are man
, what do you do?

Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, so I mean
, i mean it's not obvious

already?

the name's Ben Stress and I'm a
landscape photographer from

Colorado.

I was born and raised here, so
it's a super gorgeous state,

very fortunate to live here.

Like right my backyard we have
the Colorado Rockies.

That's like one of the most
photogenic places in the US, i

think.

A lot of national parks and
everything.

So I've been doing that for
about eight years.

It really started with my mom.

She's been a photographer my
whole life, even into the film

days, and it started when she
got a new camera And she gave me

her Canon Rebel T4i, which
anyone out there who knows what

a Rebel is, it's like an entry
level $250 Canon And I actually

shot with that for a long well
into like the beginning of the

success.

Success yeah, success is in my
career was with the Rebel, and a

lot of people were just blown
away when they'd find out that

I'm shooting with this little 18
megapixel camera.

Yeah, and yeah, i did that for
quite a while.

Actually, a lot of the
processing that I got into it's

pretty different than a lot of
things you might see out there.

I don't even remember I was
near the beginning when I was

getting kind of that photo bug.

You know it's addicting and fun
to chase cool nature,

landscapes and conditions.

And I was flipping through a
magazine It might have been on

an airplane And then I found an
image that was edited in such a

way that I was like I have to
figure out how to do this

Because it looks like it's from
a movie, like something straight

out of a token novel, like
super cinematic.

It's not like your usual
touristy tourism photography,

right.

And so like I immediately, i
think when I got home, i started

just YouTubeing like how do you
I'm pretty sure I like exactly

type that in, how do you edit a
photograph to be super dramatic

or look like something from a
movie?

And I was just trying to figure
out you know you have no idea

about this space, you don't know
all the, all the buzzwords.

And then slowly I kind of
funneled down and found this

specific editing workflow kind
of genre which is pretty

photoshop heavy and hyper
realistic and kind of dream

world and ethereal.

So I spent probably the next
four years and I was obsessed

like 12 hours every weekend and
couple hours every day after

work, getting beat up and my
baby run, and, yeah, just slowly

started building my skills and
in Photoshop and in camera as

well.

And yeah, it kind of evolved
into my style today, which is

that very, very dramatic
cinematic look.

And the reason why I think I
really kind of vibe with that is

when you're out in nature
you're shooting three

dimensional right, you have the
breeze on your face, you got

that third dimension of actually
being there, but then when you

share photographs in the 2D
world you lose that third

dimension.

So I think processing is a way
to kind of recuperate that lost

third dimension.

So instead of having that
experience and the physical

experience of being there,
you've got the visuals kind of

being pumped up, if that makes
sense, and all the strengths in

the photograph being highlighted
And I wouldn't say some people

might say exaggerated but yeah,
you definitely bringing out the

strengths And yeah, and so you
get that same wow factor.

Looking at a photograph, like if
you just took a cell phone

picture of a beautiful spot,
people might be like, oh you

know, that's pretty, but if they
were there in that exact same

spot remember, you're gonna just
start going crazy.

If you were there in that exact
same spot, you would definitely

have that wow factor.

So I wanted to have that same
reaction from people.

But looking at like a two
dimensional, you know medium

like a print or a phone screen,
so that's like kind of really

how I got into it and developed
the style that I did.

And then I started teaching
that style.

I have a bunch of tutorials on
my website And yeah, just I

think the business came out of
demand.

It wasn't the other way around.

I started a website because it
started taking off on Instagram

in 2018.

Over like one month I went from
a couple hundred to 10,000

followers And then from there
just kept going.

So people were asking for
prints and asking how I edit.

So I built a website to kind of
meet that demand And I didn't

expect it to turn into much,
just like a little fun side

thing.

And then that kept getting more
and more traffic and volume and

attention and my photographs
featured more places And, yeah,

it turned into kind of a serious
side business, which actually

it still is.

I work full time as an
aerospace engineer.

Speaker 1: Most people don't
know that, ah, actually I was

going to ask a few.

I was actually going to ask
that if this was still full time

, even in the NFT space, or if
you were a Yeah, it's still a

part time thing.

Speaker 2: So I'm an aerospace
engineer and we work with like

that's what I went to school for
Mechanical design in

engineering.

So I work with customers like
JPL and NASA and Blue Origin and

SpaceX And we develop all the a
lot of the motion or the

robotics behind their
spacecrafts and satellites And

like we do the drilling systems
on the Mars rovers and we build

quadcopters that go on the moons
of Jupiter, landing structures

for like landers, the whole
different world.

See, i got two degrees in that.

Um, actually funny, before that
I have two music degrees as

well and jazz performance.

So I kind of just keep changing
my mind of what I want to do.

I think.

I think the only constant has
been photography.

Honestly.

Speaker 1: But I think you bring
up a really good point, though

they're like I actually I really
enjoyed that because I think

I'm not sure how old you are,
but like you know, i'm 29 and

like my parents are, you know,
close to their 60s And you know.

But but this, it's always been
this, like you need to have

something figured out by a
certain age, or it's like

there's like a one track that
you need to like, like when you

decide that's it, and I just I
kind of just said like I don't

think that's for me, you know,
very similar to I saw I enjoyed

hearing that It's like you're an
aerospace engineer, like you

play, like you play jazz music
and like you take pictures, and

I just think it's incredible.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's been
a lot of.

It's been pretty crazy path.

You learn a lot.

I think they all feed into each
other.

Yeah, man.

Music how it's creative
engineering, problem solving,

and then good engineering helps
the technical, mathematical side

of photography, which is
probably a good segue into the

why I'm going to ask you that
new, the new project that we

just dropped the first piece on
and actually sold to Chevy pop,

which was really awesome in that
24 hour auction.

But I think the engineering side
of my brain is why I wanted to

get into custom smart contract
writing And that's where we got

to write that all yourself.

Huh.

Speaker 1: Did you write that
all yourself, like that entire

contract?

Did you have like, like, how
did that, how did that like

whole project, come to come to
fruition?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so my best
friend from college named is

Marco Pafis.

We were roommates and took like
every class together.

This is an engineering school.

We actually ended up working at
the same aerospace company, so

he's super good.

He's like a programming wizard
And I have hold on buddy And I

have a lot of programming
background, so I just brought

this idea to him.

So I've seen it in other
digital you know art mediums or

genres where these they're not
just static video or images or

just looping videos.

These pieces are actually
interactive somehow with the

outside world And I knew the
power of a smart contract and

what you could do with it, but
no one's really utilizing it to

their full extent, like a lot of
people are not utilizing it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
they are.

Yeah, a lot of people are.

Yeah, i got you, i got you.

Speaker 2: And so I brought this
idea to him And I think at

lunch one day and he's been
looking for we've been looking

to start a business together
anyways.

So we've developed a few
products and kind of went down

the patenting route and some
prototyping.

So I brought this idea to him
like what if we just work on

NFTs and make a really sick
project that it's interactive

with the real world?

And we started coming up with
all kinds of crazy ideas, like

pieces that change every time
they're sold for you know an

amount higher than the previous
amount, ones that maybe display

something different in the
photograph depending on some

kind of parameter or variable
inside each collector's wallet,

maybe like age or transaction
history.

Yep.

And then I was like what if we
made like a because people

display these on big displays,
right, a lot of collectors do So

like what if we made a
landscape for a photograph that

was like a window to the outside
world, but in a different part

of the plant, so it would track
the exact sunrise, sunset, day,

night cycle, no matter where you
are on the earth and no matter

what time of year?

So that's kind of where we
developed this idea about two

months ago And then we put our
put our minds together to really

kind of figure out how do you
create a photograph that's like

truly tethered to the outside
world And no matter where you're

looking at it on earth, it will
exactly match up with

whatever's going outside, on
outside your window, it's insane

man.

Yeah, so we dropped that first
piece from Zion Canyon in Utah

And you hopped in that space
right with Christopher Shin I

don't remember if you were.

Speaker 1: I wasn't in that one,
no, i just saw like I was

actually out.

but then I saw all the tweets
from it.

I think it was like right when
I got home and I'm like, oh my

God, like this is incredible.

Speaker 2: Right, yeah, so it
was really fun And I was like

what's the best about this
aspect of it?

It was like a really good
marketing strategy which just

kind of popped up.

But we were in the room and you
know how there's people all

over the world live on these
spaces, yeah And so people just

started sharing what they were
seeing and like screenshotting

it and tweeting about it, and it
was so cool.

Like someone in India would be
like I'm seeing it fade to

sunrise right now from the Milky
Way, and then someone in

Australia was looking at it in
midday and then someone over in

like East Asia was looking at
the sunset fade.

So it was just so cool to see.

Like yeah, in just everyone
sharing that the image looks

different for them.

Speaker 1: Just to pause and
kind of like package that up for

the people who are listening.

Basically, like his this image
that, uh, that he releases an

NFT drop was like it.

Wherever you are in the world
or whatever time it is during

the day, the picture adjusts to
the, to the sun cycle or to the

24 hour cycle, And so people in
Tokyo will see something

different than people in
California and like people in

California will see something
than people in Europe.

And no matter where you are,
you open it up and it changes at

like during the time of the day
and you can literally watch it

happen.

Um yeah, exactly, Yeah, I'm
just making sure I got.

Did I get that right?

Speaker 2: I just want to like
package it.

Hey, andrew's seasonal too, so
as the days get shorter or

longer, it adjusts, so should I
even know that.

Yeah, it's just falling from the
uh a sun calculator.

The JavaScript looks at your IP
address of whatever browser is

being viewed on, and so it knows
exactly what the current sunset

sunrise times are.

And then we wrote in a fading
algorithm that's basically

mapped around those.

You know those trigger points
like sunset, sunrise, so it

would.

The way that the map works is
an hour before sunrise or two

hours before sunrise it's start
fading, and then the hour before

sunrise it's pure sunrise, and
then an hour after it fade into

day, and then it do the exact
same thing for night.

And so even if you're in like
the edge cases that we tested,

like these extremes like
Northern Iceland, where you have

just a ton, a huge day right,
sometimes you have like a 24

hours of light.

It would also reflect that as
well, which is pretty cool.

That's insane, yeah.

So that's kind of where that
idea came from, and we wanted a

living photograph that was
representative of what you were

looking at outside your window.

Speaker 1: And for those who are
like, wondering what piece

we're talking about, i'm going
to link that in the show notes

just so you guys can take a look
at that, like, while you're

watching this.

Like I'll put that in the intro
to, like, have people like,

watch that, look at that image
or that video while they're

watching, because I just think
that's incredible.

Speaker 2: Yeah, cool, and
unless they're in the middle of

the day it's going to not really
change because it's daytime.

But if you catch this episode
right around sunset or sunrise

then for sure you'll start to
see it evolve.

And it updates every 30 seconds
So it doesn't need like

metadata refresh and it's cross
blending images that 0.03% each

time it changes.

So you can't even perceive that
it's changing unless you have

your browser open for like in 10
minutes to half an hour.

Speaker 1: The digital version
of watching paint dry right.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty
cool though, So it's been fun,

and the next one that I've been
working on yesterday is going to

be even somehow even more
badass, so excited to release it

, that's sick man.

Speaker 1: That's sick And I
like, i love that we're talking.

One of the reasons like this
got me so excited is because

right now, and it's we're so
spoiled and like in the NFT

space, with the amount of like
innovation, at the rapid pace

that it, that it like moves,
moves at, and not to say that

everyone's doing the same thing,
but there is a lot of people

that are doing the same thing.

Oh yeah, and it's and I say
that with the context of like,

it's not saying that no one is
not like, it's not saying that

people aren't talented, it's
like this is great, this whole

space is incredibly innovative,
talented.

But you see a lot of the same
things And I think I bring that

up because like, this was the
first thing that stuck out to me

, where it was like that's
different, and not only is this

really cool, but it's utilizing
more of the technology that

people aren't currently, i guess
, privy to or aware of or like.

Have you even have a like, an
idea of of how early we are?

you know?

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: Oh, and that's.

that's kind of why I always
talk about this in spaces, when

I mean, i've been fortunate
enough to have a lot of success

in the NFT space so far, but I
think I'm only getting just

started, for sure.

Okay, yeah, only up from here,
as we say.

And so, like I was one of the
first handful of photographers

that joined back in late
February I remember it was like

me, maybe 10 others trying to
battle it out against all these

digital artists and animated
pieces, trying to make a place

for ourselves, and a lot of
collectors didn't believe

photography would ever be
something that would be popular

in the NFT space.

Because I didn't see a lot of
them didn't see it as art.

I had a lot of collectors tell
me I don't know a lot of

collectors tell me it
photography is not art, it's

just like nature does the art,
we're just documenting it.

And they were like, yeah, i'm
sorry, i was never going to take

off like these other things.

You just wait, man, it's going
to happen.

And here we are, like
dominating the space right now.

Speaker 1: Dude, i like as much
as I love the profile picture,

like I think there's like
different emotions that are with

different projects, like I have
different reasons why I like

different areas, but, dude, i've
met, like I've had the most

connection with the photography
crew.

I think that, like, this space
that you all have created is one

of the most, is one of the most
open and accepting, and just

like incredibly talented spaces
that I've been a part of And

where it's not this like or
mentality, it's not like only

this will make it or that or
this or that, and it's like I

think, in my opinion, and this
is what I want to like, i want

to see if you share similar
thoughts but like the NFT space

is where we start like removing
the word or and replace it with

and I think people get this like
this limited view of how much

opportunity there actually is
And in a web 2.0 world, they

would be right, you know, like
not saying they would be right,

but like the way they were
talking is like you have to

compete for the attention
because there's only this small

sliver of attention available or
there's only small sense of

market share available.

But I think NFTs just like slam
the door wide open where it's

like you don't have to compete
with anybody.

Like I can, i can love my
profile picture projects and I

can.

I love the photography scene.

I may have a stronger
connection, but it doesn't mean

that I don't think that they're
going to make it like pro pop

picture projects have like their
strengths and they're and like

they have their own style and
they're special in their own way

.

But I just think that's the
wonderful part about this is

that, like you know, it still
shows that, even though we live

in a trustless system or this is
a, you know, this technology is

a trustless system like we're
still humans at the end of the

day, you know, like we're still
like, we're still kind of like

we're still trying to like think
that we need to compete, to

like, win the like, to beat the
other one out, but it's, i think

this is what, to your point, is
proving that that's not even a

conversation needs to be
happening anymore.

Speaker 2: Right, exactly, and
we're we're just getting started

too.

So I mean, collectors, are you
get new rounds of collectors

like every week They've never
heard of?

I get I get some big buys,
sometimes just from some person

I've never heard of.

That's like brand new to the
space, with 60 followers, who

just drops like three or four
Ethereum on one of my pieces.

I'm like, where did they come
from?

Like they weren't someone on my
radar.

You know, usually you have like
your group of these collectors

that are kind of put up and, and
, um, we can say, yeah, they're

on like the stage, the main
stage, and everyone knows what

these collectors are.

You know, those are the ones
that you want to get on their

radar.

And then I'll just get random
sale from someone I've never

heard of.

It's just like, yeah, this is
my first piece, i just joined,

so that I think we're just going
to get a lot more people

joining this phase And, yeah,
it's pretty pretty cool how it

evolves.

But it definitely feels like
one big thing about that NFT

space.

Even if you don't feel like
you're competing, i think

comparison can be a pretty tough
thing to deal with, like

constant comparison.

Yeah.

You're seeing everyone's curated
success.

You know right, people aren't
like posting about how they're

failing or not selling.

You just see sale, i got to
sale, i got to sale all the way

down your homepage and you can
bum you out if you're not

getting to help.

Speaker 1: So yeah, but I'll
tell you, though, like I've seen

, i mean especially in.

I think it's why it's important
to like understand, like, where

people talk about that, because
even yesterday, like Anna

McNaught was in a was in a space
with John that I was a part of,

and you know, i think that I
think the ones who are genuine

are are actually doing that,
because Anna shared her entire

journey, from like when her
phases of the moon project went

up and it literally just sold
out, and it's been like three

weeks later, but she got like
nothing on it for the first like

three weeks.

You know, it was like.

You know, she was like doubting
herself, like comparing to

other people's success, like you
know, there was all these

emotions, but it was really cool
to like hear that just raw from

the heart, you know, authentic.

And now she's like, you know,
now she's blown, now it's

blowing up, and now there's
pieces that are flipping on the

secondary market for like two,
three, five.

Someone even has the one they
don't want to sell for like a

hundred Ethereum because they
just don't want to get rid of it

, Right, but if they do, it
better be worth a pretty penny.

So I, i, i agree with you in a
sense, but I also think that,

like, i've seen more people
share their losses in this space

than in a traditional, like web
2.0 world where, like we're I

think, like to it the progress
is slow.

We're still human, We're, we've
still been conditioned like and

that's my biggest like, that's
my, that's the biggest piece of

awareness that I've had is that
we were so conditioned, and it's

like web 2.

Social media, e-commerce, like
you know, influencer world,

where we only show the wins and
the losses are never shared,

especially on places like
Instagram.

It's ideal for perfection and,
like it, i see more of it in web

3.

And I think those are the
people that I like.

Of course, there's always going
to be people that only share

their W's but they'll never
share their L's, but I just see

more of it here.

It's not perfect, but I do see
more of it here because people

are actually incentivized to
share their loss, you know,

because they want to grow the
space and they want to share to

the newcomer.

Like, hey, like you got to get
punched in the mouth maybe once

or twice, and like, but it's
okay, like everyone's been

punched in the mouth before.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i think spaces
is what really drives that

sharing.

Yeah.

People do it in print.

I hear most of the sharing of
the mental health struggles that

can come along with all this
and just like the losses.

you hear most of that in spaces
when people are talking live

with each other.

So I think just that having
that aspect which Instagram

didn't really ever have And I
mean any other art duration like

in the physical world, you're
never talking to this many

people all the time.

No, it's pretty not cool.

Some people are willing to open
up.

I do all the time.

I talk about how, because
everyone's like you know, their

first reaction is like how do
you have a you know your dad,

aerospace engineer, photographer
and you're doing this NFT space

reasonably well?

Like how the hell do you do it?

And I'm like, well, it comes
with the downside, like there's

a lot of anxiety involved.

Like some mornings they wake up
and you're just like, yeah, you

just have off days because
maybe you're just worried that

your projects isn't.

You know, something's been
sitting too long and it can just

like weigh on your mind all day
And then you're paying your

friends make or other artists
make sales.

I can weigh on you.

So people are more willing to
kind of open up.

I'm like always fully
transparent in those rooms too.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, i love that
man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nice to
hear everyone's doing it and

think some people take it a
little too far.

We've talked about this in
other rooms, where the

exploitation of sob stories can
get a little bit.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Some people I mean
genuinely have a great story and

everyone deserves to share
their story but are sometimes

where you jump from room to room
and you hear them just hitting

the repeat button and they're
just shilling the exact same

like sob story and not wanting
to listen to anyone else.

Speaker 1: But I think you, i
think you, there's something

really valuable.

You said right there, and it
said they're shilling their sob

story Yeah, like they're not,
it's not, there's nothing

authentic about it.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, it's not to say that it's
not real.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's a
fee out there where there's

some back channel talk.

I mean like, yeah, that person
just hits the play button every

room they go to and just like
cue the fight.

You know the waterworks and
everything You know.

Like why was?

it cringy after a while.

So yeah, they're.

You just got to be careful.

I know some amazing
photographers who have crazy

stories that would sell their
work in a second, like how it

literally got them off the feet
from like a drug addiction, and

they never talk about it because
it's just not their personality

.

They're not, they're art, sell
them.

You know, art sell itself in a
sense.

Yeah.

So I kind of fall into that
category as well.

I never talk about the maybe
why I do photography as much,

just how I do it and what it is.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and if
there's a right opportunity to

like share the story and enter,
you know like weave it in there,

like then it, you know, sure,
but if it makes sense to, i mean

, you know so.

But yeah, i just think that
that's it.

You bring up a good point
because, like, even when it's

like when, when I'm in a couple
of spaces and they bring someone

up and you can just tell on the
, even on the opposite end of

the spectrum, like where they're
not like sad about it, they're

just like they have this project
that they're working on, and

you can just you can tell that
they're just trying way too hard

.

You know, it's like if you, if
you, if you don't try so hard to

like show this, like if you
just like say like Hey, like I'm

looking for feedback, if you
approach everything with

curiosity and like have a
genuine desire to learn, like,

people are probably going to
help you.

Yeah, but it's just, you can
sniff it from a mile away.

I was in a room and I, i DM
someone in the on the.

You know, just while all the
spaces were happening, i'm like,

am I the only one who's feeling
like this?

Like, i feel like this person
is completely full of it and

like just has no value.

They're trying to add to the
scene, but right.

Speaker 2: And it happens.

It's a touchy subject, for sure
That's.

another thing to do is I stay
out of the drama as much as I

can.

Speaker 1: And you know, and,
and unfortunately there is drama

in it.

You know, we're all humans, we
can't it's.

We're still going to create it
wherever we go.

Right, yeah, it's.

I've gotten caught up in it a
few times, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: People.

I've seen it happen too.

Like people are quick, you can
be canceled pretty quick on on

Twitter if you're not careful.

So I just started to stay out of
things and just kind of give

them a little bit of a.

More of a try to give more of a
.

Either if it's my opinion I
very much state that it's my

opinion when I'm in rooms or I
try to take a more of an

objective and non-subjective
approach to things, just like

which is, which is nice.

I like sharing the technical
details and how things are done

and in, yeah, more about the
inspiration behind things

instead of like the, the whys, i
guess.

Speaker 1: Well, i think, but
that's what people are when you,

when you boil it down from a
collector standpoint at least

like that's what people are
there for, right, like, like to

see that picture is really cool
and it probably would fascinate

me a lot, but without knowing
who you are as a person or not

having been in the spaces or
been a part of some of the

communities you've been a part
of.

It's not that it wouldn't be
like unimpressive, but it it it

creates the bond between the
artists and the work that much

more like.

It makes it that much you know,
more special and not just a

JPEG I can go download and
right-click state as on Google.

You know if I see it, you know
what I mean.

Yeah, I think it's good.

Speaker 2: The right amount of
story is perfect for like the

back Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah It's.

You bring up a good point,
though, cause I never even

thought of that.

I'm someone who's very, who's
very, open, but sometimes I have

to throttle, like I have to
throttle it and just like know,

know my place, cause there's
been times where I've shared way

too much and it does feel
almost like a, like a shill, or

it feels like you know just,
there's sometimes where I do get

that feeling.

Um, i think it's just a balance
of like when you know, like

when and where, and I think
that's one of the coolest things

about this space is that it
forces people to be very mindful

of this, people who are
actually trying to make it Um it

.

It forces these questions that
normally we don't historically

think of, like normally we
wouldn't think about when we're

trying to do this.

Speaker 2: Yeah It's.

You know this is a weird.

This is totally different,
cause you're talking to people.

You know, like actually talking
to people instead of just

texting it out, and this delayed
conversation style where you

can think about what you're
going to say and text it, delete

it, text it again, that kind of
thing.

It's one of those unique spots
where you're constantly talking

live with um 50 to 100 or more
people about your work.

So I can't take back anything
you say and everything is live

and you get a lot more
information out that way.

So it's a.

It's pretty cool, and some
people just have a I don't know

what it is And I think we're all
trying to figure this out And

people have just like a magnetic
property to their personalities

and their work.

Like when combined, they just
take off out of nowhere Yeah.

So, I like to always I don't
know if you call it

psychoanalyze, but I like to
study the human behavior side of

the space and just take note of
what works, what doesn't work

and how do you approach a sale,
how do you approach a collector

properly?

I've done it wrong.

Everyone's name is nice And you
learn whether, like yeah,

you're annoying, so I'm going to
stop talking.

So you learn that.

But didn't work.

And luckily I made really good
friendships with a lot of the

big artists, like Jacob Bricklin
and Kath Simard, who you know

Kath and I are in photo, so we
were like co-founded that.

And you know, like Christopher
Shin and a lot of these other

Ruben Wu, eric Rubin you know
these guys are like pretty big

in the photography space, in the
NFT space, so luckily they just

share everything how they
market and how to approach

collectors, how to show your
work, and I always run things by

them before I tweet things if
they're like big drop

announcements.

So it's nice to have that
support network, which is

another thing I think is unique
in this space.

So everyone kind of has their
group or multiple groups that

they're a part of, that are
willing to give feedback and

support them on, even when you
have like a tough day And you're

just like man, i haven't sold
anything.

This is not going to me too.

I haven't sold anything in like
seven weeks And it's like what

am I doing wrong?

You start to like get in your
head like is my work suck Or can

we be better?

Yeah patience, though.

Now I can see from the other
side like, just keep grinding

And your work.

all it has to do is speak with
one collector who has any level

of clout And you'll kind of hit
your break, which I feel like

I'm just really starting to ramp
up.

I sold out everything on
foundation, got onto Super Rare,

which is a big I was a big fan,
big deal Yeah.

Yeah.

So I applied six times and
failed.

For everyone out there, it
don't feel bad that they don't

respond to your applications.

I applied six times, like once
every two weeks, and I've never

heard back.

And then I just took a
different approach every single

time, like the first time was
like here's my art.

Second time is like here's my
story.

Third time was like here's what
the project I'm doing and why

it's going to be the next big
thing.

That didn't work.

And then, like I don't even
remember what I did four, five

and six.

But then the seventh time I
applied, i said here's my sales

on foundation and you're missing
out on this commission.

And then they reached out.

And then you just try, you just
keep trying different angles.

And then they invited me onto
the platform and it is very

highly curated.

There's just a little side
tangent.

I was getting emails from them
like you should do this.

They really want to see you
succeed Or make some.

That's cool.

Speaker 1: So I mean they would
email you and be like.

Speaker 2: We noticed you posted
a piece and it's been sitting a

little long.

Maybe you think about dropping
your prices, which some of the

stuff felt a little micromanagey
to me.

Right right.

And then I listed another piece
and they're like you have two

pieces unsold, maybe you should
not list anymore until you sell

these two.

So some of it was just like man
.

They really like watching you,
like a hawk, you know.

It's not like foundation and
definitely not like open sea.

Speaker 1: I'm kidding man.

Speaker 2: And then, but yeah,
i've sold out all three of the

Bloom series on there,
everything on foundation And

I've got.

I'm getting to the point where
I've got like collectors that

are ready to pounce on the next
thing that I drop.

So it's kind of taken off.

It's pretty crazy.

So patience really does pay off
and just yeah if you're

grinding and nothing's working,
just try something different.

Like there's no.

There's no shame in trying
something that completely falls

flat on its face.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean you
don't know like kind of it's,

because I was a business coach
for the past three years and

it's like I would like people
would always get really nervous

about like when they were when
they first got their LLC

paperwork back and they're, like
you know, they're really hard

on themselves, like they didn't
know what step to take And they

were like, i'm just like when
you rode a bike for the first

time, you probably sucked at it
Like you know, you probably had

your parents like helping you
And then when they let go

without the training wheels, you
probably like fell immediately.

You know what I mean.

It's usually how it works And
it's like applying that same

principle to literally
everything we're doing Like

you're going to like it's,
things are going to suck and

you're going to have more
failures than wins, and I think

that's a really sound piece of
advice.

And, just for my audience, the
context of like what super if?

because my podcast was actually
started a year ago in gaming

and esports So there's still
some of the audience that I'm

speaking to here Now that I've
transitioned into NFTs and the

equivalent of getting accepted
on the super rare is like the

equivalent of getting a partner
getting partnered on Twitch, you

know, except that when it
sounds like super rare actually

tries to help you succeed once
you're there.

Right, it does not seem to be
doing that right now, but just

to kind of like make a
comparison.

That's kind of because a lot of
Twitch partner applications,

even though they hit
requirements, they get rejected

because of XYZ, whatever, like,
whatever the reason is.

So, yeah, just to kind of like
wrap that up and you know to tie

that together there.

Speaker 2: Right, yeah, i always
kind of compared it to like the

pro leagues of the NFT space,
like, yeah, like the NFL of NFTs

It's just hard to get in, man.

Speaker 1: They really only have
a handful of photographers in

there, But that's what makes it
so special is that, like you

know, the work that's coming in
there is people that it wasn't

just a free ticket.

You know it wasn't a, it wasn't
just like a hey.

like you know, we whether it's
sympathy or whether they just

want to let them in, or whether
they personally, like, have a

liking to their work, but they
it's actually.

it feels like they actually
have a, have a standard, and if

you're not meeting one of them,
if you're not, like, if you're

missing one out of seven, like
then you're not going to get in.

That's just the way it feels,
at least from my view.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I can only name
like four photographers in

there And we know how many.

There's so many photographers
in the space.

Yeah.

And like only four or five maybe
come to mind that are actually

in super rare.

So I feel super honored to be
on that platform Because it does

like the level of curation is
annoying from the outside.

I was fed up after like the
sixth time.

It's probably why I came at the
seventh time, kind of with a

little bit of an attitude Like
well, you're missing these sales

, like I'm making a sales,
you're the ones being you know,

quote, unquote stupid for giving
up these free commission you

could be making, cause I was
like I got nothing to lose.

I'm going to be aggressive on
this last one And it just

happened to work.

But the collectors really like
it because it takes out all that

guessing work, like are they
going to be successful?

Are they going places?

Is this a good investment?

It's kind of just a checkbox.

You know they're like yep,
they're on super rare.

So I feel confident investing
in that artist.

So it's really, yeah, i feel
fortunate to be there And I've

got the Bloom series, which is
the wildflower stuff on from

Colorado like some of my best
shots, cause I like specialized.

It's like what I'm guess I'm
known for here in Colorado is my

epic grand wildflower
photography Like not like

macroscopic pictures of pedals
and stuff, but huge landscapes

with these flowing seas of
wildflowers out into the

mountain, mountainous regions
and lakes and rivers and stuff.

So yeah, it's a four part
series and three of them are

sold out.

I'm dropping the next one
tomorrow.

Speaker 1: That's insane.

Speaker 2: How long that one
lasts.

But yeah, so that's.

things are really starting to
take off And there are times

where I thought it was going
nowhere.

That brings us back to the
whole, like you can.

only I've heard I don't
remember who was this You've

ever listened to Tim Ferriss's
podcast?

Speaker 1: I have it, i know the
name, but I haven't listened.

I haven't listened to his
podcast.

Speaker 2: It's like a startup,
or you just interview successful

people and all kinds of
practices and fields all over

the world.

Someone said you can only fail
so many times before you

inevitably win, which is true,
so don't be afraid to fail fast

and fail early.

That's another one, and then
another one is let's see how

does it go.

Oh man, i'm going to forget.

Yeah, but yeah, so you can't
fail so many times before you

win.

It'll come to me later, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's good
, because I recently the past

three years have been probably
the toughest parts of my life

and like it's just seemed like
failure after failure after

failure, and like I would
compound things that were, like

there were things that were out
of my control, but then things I

did have control.

I would just compound it and
make it worse and worse and

worse.

But the way I look at this now
is the opportunities that are

presenting me as a result of
that.

It's almost like being forged
in fire, forged in like it just

there's, like this hardened
product or this piece of work

that comes out of it, based on
all of the shit or all of the

mistakes that you did make.

Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot
to learn.

Speaker 1: There is.

There is man.

One thing I would like to.

I know you're needy, obviously
you're in the needy been

collecting or taking pictures,
selling photography work,

probably supporting other work.

What are some other NFT
projects that you're into?

Is there something outside of
photography that like, kind of

like catches your eye, or that's
like being innovative, or that

just like I guess, for lack of a
better term tickles your fancy?

Speaker 2: Right, sure, i mean I
play the collectibles game like

everybody else too.

Those are always fun.

Yeah, i mean I guess the big
one would be apart from being

honored, to own some apes and
cool cats, you know we all say

we're JPEG rich and ETH poor.

In this thing We're just gonna
dry up.

Well, you have so much more ETH
wrapped up in these apes that

are worth well over like a few
hundred thousand dollars.

It's pretty crazy.

It's nice.

It's nice, but fractionalized
art is a huge thing and that's

kind of what photo is all about,
and I think we're going to see

more and more of that, because
it opens up the accessibility to

owning pretty high end,
expensive pieces whether it be a

punk or an ape or like a
gallery of artwork from well

known artists that would be well
out of our price range normally

.

Like I couldn't afford a Kath
Zimmer piece, i think her last

piece sold for 17 point
something ETH on Super.

Speaker 1: You're insane.

Speaker 2: Yeah, So I can't
afford a piece.

But her and I and John Knopf
and Ravi Vora, we all have our

work inside of what we call a
vault.

So we put three pieces in each
valued at over I think it was

like over 140 Ethereum and
fractionalizing it through the

representation like a token that
you make, allows people to

partially own some percentage of
the values stored in that asset

, which, in this case, is a
collection of artworks.

So I think that's going to be a
big thing moving forward.

I mean, someone did it with the
zombie punk.

That's kind of what really took
off.

So when a collector or a whale
inevitably comes by one day, you

got to manifest your destiny
here.

So it's going to sell.

When they come by and pick up
this vault for I think it's a

value, The valuation is like 500
, 540 ETH So they're going to

come and drop 540 ETH and buy
the entire vault out and all the

artwork And then that ETH will
get evenly distributed to

everyone who owns or owns photo
token you know, according to how

much they own.

So, that's a pretty cool concept
in this space.

So there's a lot of projects
that are starting to look at

fractionalizing, and that's what
D's is all about.

He works for fractionalart, so,
yeah, let's go in places, and

I've thought about
fractionalizing my ape, selling

it out to a bunch of other
people.

Yeah, there's all kinds of
things you can do with that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean, that's
actually how I found you, you

know, because I found fractional
.

I don't know how I found
fractional.

That's the story, i don't know,
but I found fractional somehow.

Whether you know someone that I
looked up to filed and it was

when D's fractionalized his
hoodie punk and like this is

cool, you know, because his
hoodie punk, that's something

that relates to a lot of my
story, you know, like that,

there's a lot that speaks to me
through that punk, and so I

thought that was pretty dope and
D's was pretty cool about it.

He's like, you know, you should
all rock it as your profile

picture too, like being able to
flex a punk and own something as

your like.

That's a pretty cool thing, you
know.

And for people that are a
little bit lost on that is, you

know, think of it.

It's like an element of Robin
Hood stock trading, where you

own fractions of stocks, except
that if someone wants to accept

your number and number two,
you're doing it with art, you're

buying fractions of art, and if
someone wants to buy it, you

get rewarded for your shares of
the current valuation, you know,

or whatever it's bought out for
, whatever it's bid on over, you

know.

Speaker 2: It's super long,
these are huge.

And then there's Dow structures
, which, yeah, yeah, we'll be

moving into just as a fractional
space in general.

So it's just all automated,
decentralized autonomous

organizations.

It's something to definitely
look into.

If people don't know what it is
, so it took me a little while

to wrap my head around it.

But yeah that's a big genre of I
don't know if you call it genre

That's a big space in the NFT
community that is taking off and

that I'm a co-founder and one
of the first to do it for

photography I mean there's
collectibles constantly coming

out with like interesting
roadmaps.

I think the game aspect's cool,
like strawberry dot.

Wtf.

Super cool guy.

He did the was it the rare
pizzas?

I think is what he called them
That project which was really

successful.

He has his hand in the zero and
one force project which took

off.

Yep, yep.

So he built a really sick video
game.

That's a part of the part of
the kind of the roadmap for

strawberry.

So I think the video game
aspect's really cool.

Some of the roadmaps people do
are really unique.

You see celebrities getting
into it now, like Ashton Kutcher

and Mila Kunis did the stoner
cats, which is going to be an NF

, a Netflix show.

And then, yeah, there's still a
lot of projects coming down the

pipeline, like sevens and Mecca.

Yep.

Those are going to be big Gas.

wars are insane.

Getting anything.

A pre-ment that's good now is
almost impossible, unless you're

willing to pay like five ETH
for the fricking transaction,

which is crazy.

Speaker 1: Right now, gas is at
356.

It's insane.

Speaker 2: Yeah, a little during
.

Like a Mecca drop, like the one
coming out in the end of

September, that's going to boost
it probably past a

thousand-gway, because it's you
know, these whales that pump the

hell out of it so that other
people they basically squeeze

everyone else out so that they
can pick up as much of these as

possible and then flip them on
the secondary.

Yeah, for like two, three, four
acts.

It's nuts.

So as a just a regular old,
non-crypto billionaire, you know

, a non-billionaire crypto
holder, i can't even compete

with these guys.

Yeah, like you want to win a
gas war, for a piece that costs

0.1 ETH, you're paying like
three to five ETH.

It's ridiculous, it's stupid.

It's sell out in like minutes,
sometimes seconds.

The whole thing, all 10,000
will be gone in like the first

30 seconds.

Speaker 1: Yeah, So yeah.

Let's say well, yeah, i went
down a rabbit hole there, but No

, and for those that are like
wondering what guay is like,

that's like it's commonly
referred to as gas in the, you

know, in NFT space It's
essentially the transaction.

It's the fee to.

you know it's the fee to like
put the block on the blockchain.

You know it's the network fee
to make these transactions

happen, you know.

so these miners get paid.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and the more
demand, the higher it goes,

because you're just like
basically waving your money.

You're standing in line and
waving your money, like I'll pay

you this much to get in front
of the line, and then it's just

like everyone competing and the
demand going up, then, before

you know it, if you want any
chance of your transaction going

through, you just have to pay a
hefty amount.

Speaker 1: It's pretty crazy.

Speaker 2: Yeah, give me a proof
of stake That'll stop all this

craziness spending so much money
on gas.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I
think that's really where, like

something that I've had my eye
on, it's not.

I don't think it's going to
ever overtake it.

I know there's arguments on
both sides but, um, solana is

actually something that, like, i
think from like the gaming

perspective, you know, like
Solana is quick, you know Solana

is incredibly fast And I think
that's where it's going to have

its advantage.

And I think of, like, some of
the games that we play today,

like, well, first and foremost,
the games that these you know

avatar projects are creating.

I think it's a really
fascinating concept.

My question is how do these all
mesh together and like, where

are they all going to be located
and is there going to be

interoperability between chains?

That's kind of where I'm like.

I'm still got some gray area or
question marks, and I think that

after watching a few Solana or
watching a Solana video and

reading a bit about it, like
they were built for speed and

they're mainly built for global
trading, like that's like what

they were.

their primary focus is on, but
you look at the speed in which

that happens, you can start
adding AAA graphics, you know,

to video games and building them
on an engine like that.

So, like I, that's.

my take is like I feel like
that gaming will take off on

Solana, you know like, but
collectibles and like any sort

of like like, like fine art or
like super curated art will

still live on a few, because I
don't I just don't get the same

vibe of like owning something as
Solana doesn't if it's a

collectible piece.

I wouldn't trust as much on
Solana over Ethereum, you know

like, or over open sea, but I
yeah, that's just a.

it's a fascinating topic to see
like all of these things being

built and compete in like the
games.

I love the idea of the games,
but I'm still like a bit

skeptical, if I'm being honest,
on like how that's going to all

work.

Yeah, you know.

Speaker 2: I'm not a yeah you
know way more than I do.

I don't even have time.

I used to be more into the
gaming community, but not a long

time but I definitely am
heavily invested in Solana.

So, yeah, I bought, I bought
back before they hit the $20

marks another way, way above
that.

now It took off.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i was
like I'm not seeing it till it

went above, till it was around
60s when I first had it on my

radar.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I have a
lucky to be in some inner

circles where I get people
telling me like, dude, this is

going to be a thousand dollars
soon.

This is like back from.

Solana was like 15 bucks.

I was like, all right, I'll
throw five ETH worth of Ethereum

into it and buy like a thousand
Solana.

And now it's like up in the
$140 range.

I was just like that was a good
investment.

Yeah, man, Yeah.

I also have a really good
marketing campaign.

They get TikTok dancers to talk
about it.

That's why they're being pumped
so hard.

Speaker 1: And I just think it's
what I think is fascinating

about Solana is like the
derivative, like the derivative

punks, you know, like the Solana
punks and like the Solana it's

almost like a copy of basically
making it.

People, It's a little bit more
affordable to own a punk but

it's on Solana and you just I
wonder if, like, obviously it

won't ever have the special,
like, it won't have the feeling

of an original punk, But like to
me that I would always dismiss

derivatives, like up until this
point, I think there's been like

six or seven projects with
derivatives or derivative

projects that I'm just like it's
actually took off and I could

have bought into it.

You know, even though I don't
really believe in it.

I'm like fuck man.

Speaker 2: I miss them all the
time I'm like the worst at

generative.

I call them generatives.

These are the ones where you
know you have one of 10,000,

where they generate computer
algorithms, put together a bunch

of properties and traits and
slap together and you get a

random whatever like a punk or
like maybe not like a punk, but

more like an ape, and all those
guys it's on one force, yetis,

which left a bad taste in a lot
of people's mouth.

And yeah, i bought some of the
degenerate apes over on Solana,

so we'll see if that would turn
into anything.

It's fun.

Yeah, i own some stuff on
Solana as well.

Cardano I've never got into
that blockchain.

Yeah, i own some currency, but
I don't buy anything or trade.

And then Tesos, i don't even
touch for many reasons.

Speaker 1: No, Yeah, i've only
done Tesos just because there's

some really cool pieces on the
hand website.

Oh yeah, the art is awesome.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible
, yeah, the sensitive subject to

talk about when people bring it
up.

I don't touch.

Tesos, because I trust them
zero and I think their dev team

is very skillless and they're
going nowhere, and a lot of

people share this opinion,
especially some of these huge,

huge collectors.

I think they're going to die
the next crypto winner, but

we'll see.

You think so, yeah.

But, that's an opinion and
everything just like I would say

, right, yeah, this is financial
advice.

Yeah, because I know people
they'll get a bit defensive

because they're like, well, such
a good community.

I'm like, yeah, the community
is awesome, like the art

community is super awesome on
the Tesos blockchain, like

Calamant and Hiccicnunk, or
Hiccicnunk as it's pronounced

apparently I didn't know that.

Thank you for teaching me that.

Yeah, yeah, the community is
awesome, very supportive, cheap

as hell gas.

But then you look into the devs
, the dev team, and where Tesos

is going and how they have no
idea how to allocate resources

and spend the funding that they
have.

It's just like this is yeah,
this is not good.

That's why they've dropped down
.

What are they at right now?

I think it's like a three.

We got this big bull run.

Are they still at three?

Yeah?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they're
around three.

Speaker 2: That's exactly what
I'm talking about.

They used to be above seven.

Speaker 1: Oh, no kidding.

Speaker 2: And then they dropped
and they don't follow anything

else.

Everything else Bitcoin,
ethereum, solana, cardano,

polkadot, matic they all go up.

Tesos just hangs out below
three, just like yeah, well,

maybe take that as a hint, but
so I don't mess around on there.

I've also had collectors tell
me that if I posted work on the

Tesos chain, i would have my
reputation slashed by magnitudes

.

Speaker 1: Really.

Speaker 2: So I was like well,
I'm going to listen to the

people that are buying my work.

If they're going to say they're
going to stop buying my work,

If I list things on the Tesos
chain, then I'll probably not

list things on the Tesos chain.

Yeah, Yeah that's Yeah.

there'll be some people
listening to this that are

probably going to DM me and a
little bit pissed off, but

that's just how I feel about the
Tesos chain.

I don't yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, i mean you
speak in your mind and it's just

like if there's a whole point
of this is to trust this like we

were.

It's kind of weird We're
building a trustless system but

we still have to trust the
people that are building it.

At least for the interim, you
know that they're going to be

doing the right thing, i mean.

So I think that's like.

I think I'm really glad that
you said that, because it's an

important point to bring up that
just like, don't you know?

like well, i bought it on the
Tesos changes because I like the

art, you know.

But it's important to have these
because, like, if you just

again going back to like the
like, the kind of like that wind

, like that tunnel, where it's
just like all of the same

opinions and all of only
positive events only going to

work, like if you don't ever
think outside or challenge

something like it's, you know
you're going to fail pretty hard

in this space.

If you don't know how to think
for yourself, you don't know how

to trust.

But there's certain if you, if
you have an intuitive feeling

like, follow that right, yeah.

Speaker 2: I just have the inner
circle of people to also don't

trust certain things, so I'm
just inclined to follow them,

especially when they're right.

Over and over and over and over
again, like why this generative

is going to take off like nah,
and then it takes off like shit.

I should have listened to that.

Or like invest in this, don't
invest in that.

And you have a few people who
they literally don't.

That's what they do every day.

They're day traders and they
swing trade and they leverage,

like they do this stuff all day
long.

So it's like, yeah, you got.

I'm going to trust what the
work that you've put in And I'm

going to do my own research so
that I can like have an

educational conversation about
it.

Right, but they're doing really
well for themselves And we're

like really good friends, so of
course, i'm going to take their

advice for more than a grain of
salt when it comes to stuff like

that, And it always proves like
they've proven themselves

correct over and over again,
Tezos being one of the things

that they're like when it was
above, I think.

Did it ever?

what?

was it all time high They're
like at 12, did it ever hit 12

or 14?

Man it.

Speaker 1: If All time high was
8, uh 830.

Speaker 2: Oh, okay, i was in 36
.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it was around
that time when they told me to

get out Like it's going to crash
and it's not going to bounce

back, and so I did, and so far
it crashed and it hasn't bounced

back.

So everything else is bouncing
back, ethereum's bouncing back

And I don't know I don't want to
.

What is the actual value of
Tesla's right now?

Is it still really in the
threes?

It's not pulling up on my
Coinbase for some reason,

probably because I just took it
off as a preference.

Yeah, uh, let's see.

Uh, actually, no, today's at
538.

All right, so it's.

It is bouncing a little bit.

I think everything's moving.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: But it's still yeah,
because I actually there was a

really cool piece that was only
on Atlanta Tesla's chain.

I'm like, well, i want to own
this and this is dope, right.

So yeah, no, i had some.

I had some spare to spend.

that was just collecting
interest in Coinbase, which is a

pretty cool feature of it, but
you know, uh that was really all

I used it for.

Um, but yeah, yeah, no it thanks
for like this is.

This is a good, this is a good
chat because, like I think

there's a lot of my audience is
still like very new and like I

think going in a bunch of
different topics and like random

chains and like it sparks a lot
of rabbit holes that people can

go down, because a lot of
people ask me it's like, well,

not a lot, but people are in my
circle that aren't involved in

the space, like where do I even
get started?

It's just like there's not
really one place to get started.

You just kind of like find some
, find some information and like

you just go down like 18
different rabbit holes.

You know, um, one thing I
wanted to ask you about,

speaking of the trust factor, is
like is Gary like Gary Vee in

the space, like Gary Vaynerchuk?

like what's your, what's your
thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: Um, he's impressive
as hell to listen to him talk

about anything, yeah.

Well, were you following him
before he?

Speaker 1: got an NFTs?

Were you following him before
he got an NFTs?

Speaker 2: Um, no, i wasn't
actually, but I've kind of like

backtracked and listened to a
lot of his his talks about how

to run a business as a CEO or a
co-founder, and I mean he did

everything he says and he's one
of those people.

Someone can like stand up to
the mic and challenge his point

of view And then he just like
just smashes it out of the park.

Like every time his response is
just insane.

So I don't know a lot about his
history, but everything he says

I like definitely vibe, with
one of them being like about

nine to five jobs and CEOs and
founders just expect this.

Like I work 50 hour, 60, 70
hour weeks.

Like I don't understand why my
employees are so lazy, like that

was one of the things someone
said in the audience.

Then he went on and on about
how you can't expect employees

to work anywhere near what a
founder does, because they don't

have the same vested interest
and ownership and there's

nothing to do with the laziness
of an employee and everything.

He just says, like yeah, it
makes sense, he seems to be,

because I'm huge into the
entrepreneur and the

entrepreneurial world in general
, like I work nine to five right

now and I'm definitely not
going to retire in a nine to

five.

So yeah.

I can only do it so long.

I think it's just not in my
personality.

I want to work for myself,
build my own products, and I've

always been like that.

So, yeah, he's been awesome to
kind of discover, along with

people like Tim Ferriss and Guy
Braz, who does how I built this

like really good podcasts and
everything.

Yeah, yeah, you crushing it in
this space.

Speaker 1: Dude, well, yeah,
yeah, i mean that was so, like

when a reason I asked it, like I
had my own opinion because I've

been following him since 2018.

You know, so, like, once he got
involved, like I kind of knew

it was, i was right in that
middle point of validation where

I was like I believed in it.

The feeling was real.

I came in in March of this year
, you know like right when

people sold that piece.

That's what sparked my
attention And I did about three

months for the research and then
I just didn't touch it for a

little while because I'm like
you know what, let me just

digest.

I've read all I can.

I can all print so much I can
take.

And then Gary came in and he
like I saw drops of him talking

about it here and there, but he
wasn't really like in his full

form about it.

And then he came out with a
project.

But I was in that that
rebellious stage.

I'm just like I can't.

I can't, just like I can't
contain anymore right now.

Dude, i I love, i absolutely
love what he's doing, and so,

like I have a, i have a very
biased view just because I've

been following him.

So I and I've heard opinions
other way, like on the other

side of it, like what people
think about Gary, what people

like think he's doing for the
space.

Um, i know most of it's
positive but I have seen, have

seen, the other side of the coin
.

You know where people think
it's just a marketing stun or

like and he's a really good
marketer I mean number one, like

that last project that he did
with the book.

I ate in about 24 copies of
that book.

He's like did you see that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I did.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean it's
insane.

Um, he got himself the number
one best seller.

like he's giving people two
NFTs and he's putting his

reputation on it, you know, and
you get to put a great book into

the hands of a bunch of people
for Christmas.

Speaker 2: I know, that's pretty
crazy.

So, he's good for the.

I think he's good for the space
.

It's because he he knows how to
talk down or talk up, or

whatever you want to call it.

All the naysayers of NFTs.

Yeah.

So he's kind of like a head, a
figurehead of like why NFTs are

going to be here to stay and the
utility is just we're seeing

the tip of the iceberg with
smart contracts and, yeah, nft

utility and it's going to be a
common place way to trade

digital assets.

Like imagine a world where
Amazon every purchase made on

Amazon digital or physical, that
shipped to your house is done

through a smart contract instead
of all the web 2.0 way of doing

things or buying like a house
where all the escrow and the

taxes are wrapped up in the
smart contract instead of like

mounds of paperwork.

Yeah, so I think it's going to
be the future of digital assets

and just selling things over a
digital medium.

I think.

So owning somebody's original
projects, like a board A which

is going to become historic, is
huge.

Like I'm pretty sure I'm going
to be able to retire off of my

one board A that I own.

I believe it Yeah.

I'm holding on and I think I'll
be getting over 1000 Ethereum

offers for it in the next 24 to
36 months, and I'm not the only

person that feels that way.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, i in,
apes are like one of my

favorite, like I love punks, but
Apes are probably one of my

favorites.

And what do you?

so I've seen conversation on
both sides about the mutinapes.

Like I'll say my personal.

I think I like the works, i
like the mutinapes more than I

do the regular ones.

I know that's one opinion.

Speaker 2: I've heard that
before, yeah.

Speaker 1: But like, what is
your thoughts on?

like, do you ever like, do you
think it's going to be more

valuable?

like, have a mutinape with you?

think it's valuable to have the
pair on its own?

Like, what are your thoughts on
?

like that whole drop, because I
have mine, but I'd like to know

yours.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of hit a
weird.

They dropped it at a weird time
Because every NFT started,

their floor started dropping.

I don't know.

You know what triggered that.

I think every time Ethereum
gets close to its all-time high,

NFTs, like, are inversely
proportional.

So they go back, they go.

You know the other way.

Yeah.

So as you get Ethereum cracking
that $4,000 ceiling, then the

NFTs floor started dropping
because people are trying to

sell and cash out, yeah, so the
drop happened in a weird time

when Ethereum started really
taking off.

So the mutinapes kind of what
are they I'm talking about, the

M1s here had like a floor of
like seven to eight Ethereum

right when they dropped And this
is pretty typical after a drop

at dips, and then it'll climb
back up.

I think they're sitting under
five now.

The artwork is super cool and
the concept's really awesome

that there's three levels like
the M1, 2s and 3s.

And it's funny that the M1s look
a little sloppy and, like you

know, it's an experiment gone
bad Like they're all melting

everywhere and nothing looks
kind of crazy and psychedelic.

And the M2s are a lot of
similar kind of art style but a

little more badass elements to
it.

And then, of course, the Megas
are just crazy.

They're nuts.

There's only eight of them, but
yeah, i think obviously I must

trust in them because I took I
was there a drop to an M2 serum,

which was awesome.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: I was getting offers
of 24 ETH like about a couple

days after, and I didn't
freaking sell it.

Wow, i was in the mountains
when this whole thing dropped.

I had a sketchy sell service,
so my apes are locked up on my

ledger my mutant and my regular
ape, and I have the dog that

matches my ape.

So I couldn't do I couldn't
drink the serum if I wanted to

to create an M1 or an M2.

So I got dropped an M2 and
three days later I got back and

I realized everyone had mutated
their apes, like most people.

And then the serum two prices
went through the fricking roof

Like they were up in the 25 ETH.

I was getting offers all over
the place up in the mid twenties

for something that was free,
which is that's first of all.

That's an insane utility to have
just owning an ape.

It's like, hey, thanks for
being an ape holder, Here's

$60,000.

Like, what other project can
you do that with?

So it's just, i ended up not
using it.

I didn't sell it either.

So I was like I think the M2
serums in months time are going

to be more valuable than M2 apes
Once everyone uses up their

serum.

Could think of any M1 apes
there are that people just could

.

They got airdrop the M1 or
serum or they bought it.

Think how many of those are in
then, five, six months down the

road, when there's few M2 serums
left because everyone uses them

, i'll have one of them and I'll
have this huge community who

would do anything to mutate
their ape into the next level.

Yeah, so I think the M2 serums
going to be more valuable than

the M2 apes.

So I still have the serum.

So what I did is I bought an M1
serum for six and a half ETH

and then I mutated that so that
I at least had one for utility

purposes.

Yeah, ever since doing that, of
course, i bought the serum at

six and a half and now that you
can get them for like four, so

I'm like, oh well yeah, I can't
predict these kinds of things.

It'll spring back, though I
don't think it's going to crash.

Too many people love the art in
and just the utility.

Everything's down, even the
apes drop.

Oh my gosh, what are they at
right now?

Like 30 something?

Yeah, yeah, i think the only.

Thing that hadn't dropped was
punks.

What Let's?

Speaker 1: continue.

I think punks are still rising.

Speaker 2: Damn it.

I couldn't have got one ever.

I could now afford the 20th
floor now, but the floor is now

over 100.

It's insane.

So I could have no stage during
the punk floor.

Could I have ever afforded it?

Yeah, so the apes dropped like
15 ETH, like the OG apes, and

the on one force dropped a bunch
, everything dropped, everything

went down.

I think the mutants are just
kind of along for that same ride

.

I think they're going to bounce
back, though, because it gave a

lot of people a way to get into
the ape community without

having to own an ape, like they
could just buy the mutant ape on

the secondary for way cheaper
than an ape.

Yeah, yeah.

So, I got the serum too So.

I'll say I can tell that for
ridiculous money one day.

Speaker 1: That was insane how
they did that.

I mean selfishly, I'm ready for
, like, the winter to hit so I

can actually like by that time
I'll have some stuff paid off

for.

I can actually afford one Like
that's just from my own selfish.

Obviously I want them to rip
like lower just a little bit

more so I can buy it and then
you can go back.

Speaker 2: Do you have any board
ape stuff?

I don't.

Speaker 1: I don't, i didn't.

My first actual NFT purchase
was in July, so I kind of missed

the boat, like I saw, like
again, i miss, like, i miss

Vference, i miss board ape, like
I like.

But to be fair, at the same
time though, like you know, some

of the tough lessons I told you
I was I went through for the

past three years is I compounded
a lot of debt, you know and so

like.

Even if I wanted to, there was
not, the funds were not

available to like, even drop,
like it to ETH on on one of

these projects, i didn't have an
extra two to three grand to

spare, you know yeah, it's a lot
If you're buying into this it's

.

Speaker 2: it's such a huge
barrier to entry.

Yeah, as an artist, i feel
we're in a super, super unique

and fortunate position.

We can sell our way into this
ridiculously restrictive Yeah,

high barrier community.

I don't think I put a total of
$800 of my own money into crypto

, yeah, and now I'm sitting over
probably a half a mil now

because I'm able to sell my work
But not a lot of people can.

Really.

You know, a lot of crypto
investors can't do that kind of

thing.

Speaker 1: So, yeah, yeah, no,
you're right, and I mean I think

I've put in around, yeah,
between 600 and 1000 is what is

what my own money that I put
into.

But there's a couple of them
that, like you know, the one,

the one regret I did have is
this, and it's real was a really

tough learning lessons that I
own two world of women in the

beginning And I flipped two of
them for 1.2 total, you know

like which, but at the time that
was huge.

Like I spent like $300 and I
made $3,000.

Like it's it's hard to like not
be mad at.

Like it's like I'm still mad at
that, because now the floor is

at like four, you know four or
five.

I know right, it's insane.

I've done this world.

Can you like be upset about
making like a thousand?

next profit?

so it could have been more.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i've done that
so many times.

Yeah, like the on one force was
a big mistake I made.

Yeah, you know what project.

Speaker 1: I'm talking about the
on one or the zero and one.

I do, yeah, i own it.

My friend calls it ony, yeah.

Speaker 2: Ony, there you go,
yeah, yeah.

So that that one was a big one,
a big mistake is.

one of the people who had their
hand in the project reached out

to me before the drop and said
I can reserve you 10 of these

for point for one ETH, and I'll
do you want it.

Do you want in for an ETH?

I'll get you 10.

Wow, i was like I've got burnt
by Yeti's strawberries, misfits,

camels, like all kinds of crazy
shit up to that point.

So I was like, nah, i looked at
the project It was another

profile pic project And I was
like, yeah, there's nothing.

I don't see anything like
screaming out of me as being

unique.

Maybe I didn't look into it
enough.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I would pass on that
for an ETH, you had 10.

And then a week later the floor
is at like six ETH.

I was like, holy shit, i could
have turned this around for 60

ETH at the minimum, assuming I
got all floor value rarities,

you know.

Yeah.

So I basically said no to 60
ETH, which is insane.

So I know the feeling of
missing.

I'm trying to think if I've
sold anything too early too,

yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't think
of anything.

Speaker 2: So now I have like
diamond hands like crazy,

probably to a detriment.

I just don't let things go.

I'm like, but it could be worth
more.

Like I could have sold that
serum for 25 ETH for free, just

like yeah, here's 25 ETH that I
got and use that money to buy I

don't know a bunch of other
projects that can flip things or

just keep it in Ethereum.

Speaker 1: Or keep it in
Ethereum or like, like, like pad

to savings account.

You know what I mean, like you
know you could like.

There's a lot of things that
that I mean.

This is life changing money
that we're talking about here,

you know, yeah exactly.

So I feel pretty.

Speaker 2: I can feel you there
Made some stupid mistakes, But

I'm really just focusing on my
own art now.

Yeah.

So I'm starting to hit a
tipping point, like a breakaway

point.

That's cool Skate pull-up to be
, if you will.

Yeah, rob, you know, chevy Pop,
i don't know if you're familiar

with him.

Yeah, he's picking.

He hadn't picking up my first
transient.

I'm coining this term.

Okay, i keep saying that I saw
that one of the other day.

It's going to be the thing,
because I'm tired of explaining

it in like three, four sentences
.

Yeah, yeah, he, him picking up
my first transient.

Nft is huge because I was
talking to Barat I don't know if

you know him.

He's another collector.

He bought my first face on
Super Rare for For Ethereum and

I was talking to him.

Like someone offered me two
Ethereum on both my other pieces

.

Should I take it?

You know, i just wanted to.

I like to be transparent with my
collectors Because I think I

think of it as like their
investors in a company in my

brand.

So I want to like swing things
by them before I make any

financial decisions, because
they kind of have vested

interest in my brand, because
they own some of my work.

And then he was like you know,
he's like don't ever dip your

prices because you don't want to
be known for taking less than

what your floor is.

And, like you know, you can
take like a little less.

Like if your floor is four ETH
and then you get an offer for

like 3.5, like sure.

Like that's fine, right.

But not two or one ETH when
your floor is four, right.

And then he also said you want
a collector that has diamond

hands, willing to hold on to
your piece and also chill and

support your work and spread the
word.

And that's exactly what Rob is
all about.

Like, as soon as he bought my
piece, he started DMing me.

He's like dude, we just formed
the dream team.

Like I'm going to make sure
that this next drop that you do

on here gets, because he feels
like he got this piece for a

steal.

And Jacob Briglin also said
something about that on one of

the tweets.

And then Rob responded being
like yeah, i got this for a

steal, but I'm going to make
sure sure as hell, make sure

that Ben's next piece goes for
well over 20 ETH from like I

didn't score it.

a better collector.

Like he's going to shill the
hell out of this next drop.

And the bitter that he beat out
in the auction OpenSea glitched

for him.

Oh my God, it's dude.

I went to their Discord and
chewed them out for a while.

I was pretty pissed.

Yeah, i'm fortunate to have Rob
as a collector and he bought it

for 70 ETH, which is nothing to
sneeze at.

Right, right, like my mom
thought I was crazy.

Like, yeah, i sold that art
piece for 27 grand.

She's like, excuse me, well,
what?

Well, even saying it out loud
sounds so funny.

Like I could put that on like
an art CV.

Now an artist CV.

It's like, yeah, i still
artwork.

Some of my pieces go for
$27,000.

Like that sounds ridiculous.

So Obiti glitched on him in the
last five minutes of the

auction.

He said that the entire time
OpenSea he was refreshing, the

whole time OpenSea said he was
the top bitter, it never updated

, wow.

And then the auction ended and
he refreshed and it just like

glitched and like snapped to the
reality of him losing and said

Chevy Pop was the owner And he
DM me.

He's like what the heck, did
you like cancel the auction and

do a private sale?

And I was like no, not at all.

Like you thought I was doing
something sneaky on the other

side, yeah, yeah.

And I was like no, we were in a
Twitter space with like 50

people, everyone was live
counting down the auction.

We were all watching it And
turns out OpenSea was glitching

out at the end of the auction
and wasn't updating for him.

So he's coming in for this
second piece with such a chip on

his shoulder Yeah.

And in like a hunger.

He's like all right well,
opensea sucks.

I was like yeah, he's like I
was willing to take this to

double seven.

He's like I was going to 15 ETH
was my cap, and then Rob Chevy

Pop also said he was willing to
go to like 14 ETH, so I could

have OpenSea screwed it out of
like doubling the value of it,

which really sucks.

Yeah.

But you know I can't complain
about a good sale, but it does

suck that it glitched out when
it could have been a whole

different story.

So he's like, yeah, when that
second piece drops, i want you

to let me know the link, because
there's no way in hell I'm

letting this one go.

I have someone who's like super
hungry for it And I have Chevy

Pop who's going to be pushing
the hell out of this next piece

And it's just a super badass
piece.

Are people going to be viewing
this?

like?

what's the time frame?

like the next week, two weeks,
yeah.

Speaker 1: So it's going to be.

So I'm dropping.

So I because I'm trying to take
as much time as I can, so

because it's my week break in
between jobs, right, but so this

one will probably not this
Monday, but the following Monday

is when this one will drop.

Speaker 2: All right, so you're
free, i'm going to show you

sneak peek.

You're like one of two people
to see this?

Oh, wow, i'm going to try to
show it on the stupid camera.

I'm like, let's see how this
looks.

So I tweeted about it.

Right, it's this image.

Ooh, that looks.

My camera is doing horrible
things with the color.

It is a nice screen share.

Speaker 1: I don't know how that
would work.

Yeah, yeah, you can screen
share.

If you pulled it up, is it only
on your phone, or is it on your

computer.

Speaker 2: I can put it on my
computer.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, if you
did, then you can.

You don't have to add this
either.

Speaker 2: This is just us like
yeah.

Yeah.

Speaker 1: If I need to, I can
just let me know when this like,

when this like, I'll let you
know when this drops and you let

me know whether I needed to
edit it out or not.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, no, at
this point we're just shooting

this shit here.

Yeah, let me share my screen
here, and then I can stop

sharing when I'm done.

Yeah, Yeah.

Is it all working or is it
still thinking?

Speaker 1: It's still thinking I
don't see anything.

Speaker 2: Yet That's weird.

Totally said that it share.

It's just like denying.

Well, it's not denying, but
it's not doing anything.

Really, yeah, okay, that's
weird.

Yeah, like click the screen and
I say share entire screen And

then I hit the share button and
then just brings me back to

interesting little home page
here.

Okay, yeah, cause it gets.

Speaker 1: It's weird that like
well, I'm just going to like

it's screen share that you see,
that's okay.

Interesting What?

Speaker 2: the heck is going on
here.

Window finder Maybe I can share
.

Maybe open it up first and then
I can share it.

Quick time Nothing.

Nothing Yeah.

Speaker 1: I wonder if it's a
like.

I hate to say it, but wonder if
it's a Mac.

I don't, I that shouldn't make
a difference, though.

Yeah, that is weird.

Speaker 2: Anyways.

Well, I saw my version.

Yeah, but yeah, you can see the
horrible version here.

This is that daytime shot glare
, right In the pink sky.

Does it look all pink and gross
?

It looks really gross on my end
.

Here's what it.

Here's what it does.

So this is the sunset version,
and then it's going to fade into

a northern lights.

Then it fades into a sunrise.

How many?

lights.

Yeah, so it's a.

It's the famous Iceland
waterfall and it's looking so

good.

Not on that, right, right,
that's insane man.

So I'm excited to drop that one
.

Yeah.

And have northern lights as the
nighttime version.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so are you?

are you going to be?

is this kind of like what
you're doing right now?

Is this kind of going to be the
norm, going forward where it's

like this?

it's this type of like, you see
, transient, is that?

what?

is that the?

Speaker 2: yeah, they call it
transient NFTs.

So like okay, transient, or
they call it.

I call it transient NFTs.

So transient meaning like
fleeting, changing with time.

That's literally what it quite
like.

Quite literally means changing
with time, fleeting, non

permanent, evolving.

So in engineering, a transient
equation or a transient variable

means something that's
dependent on time.

So that's kind of where the the
name came from.

Speaker 1: Gotcha, so we're just
going to call them TNFTs

because it's catchy.

There you go, man.

Everyone likes acronyms.

Speaker 2: Yeah, right, and then
, yeah, the gallery on open sea,

or technically it's a
collection, right, but

everyone's doing collections
right now in photography And I

didn't want to get confused with
being a doing, with doing a

collection, because I will
probably never do a collection.

I'd rather just release my
pieces one by one.

Yeah, i don't want to drop my
prices and do one of ones, like

31 of ones, for like 0.5 or less
Ethereum.

Yeah, so I was being really
careful with the wording and

open sea calls of the collection
, but I called it a transient

gallery, so I have these series
and then each one is a series.

So this one's the 24 series, so
ones that do like the 24 hour

cycles, and then those are going
to live within the transient

gallery.

That's on open sea, which is
technically the collection.

But yeah, i have a lot of
opinions about collections Good

and bad.

Speaker 1: I can tell the body
language started shifting and

the tones started changing.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i don't know.

I'm trying not to make any
enemies, but, yeah, everything

that I say is like an opinion,
and collections have done

amazing things for the space.

Like these photography
collections.

They just blow up out of
nowhere.

You know what I'm talking about
.

Yep, like everyone's doing a
collection now which kind of

goes along the point you said
earlier where you don't want to

just follow, you don't want to
be a sheep in the space not that

everyone's being a sheep, right
, what?

Yeah, you do something, like
someone does a collection, which

is really unique idea.

To begin with, i think it was
like a month ago, so I did like

a one of 100 addition drop just
to make something accessible and

attainable for anyone who wants
to just own a piece of my work.

Speaker 1: Yeah, And that was
the first piece of your work

that I bought, because it was
like right now I'm still locked

into a certain amount of the
theory and that was something I

was able to afford.

Speaker 2: That's awesome.

I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so that as soon
as I dropped that, the next

morning I woke up and like a
hundred more people were doing

one of 50s, one of 100s And
that's not.

That's not wasn't my intention,
because a lot of people I

haven't even sold out.

I get the plan was I wasn't
planning to sell out right away

Like it's a hundred pieces.

It's going to take a while.

Yeah.

I think two of them go like
every day, which is still really

fast for something like that,
yeah.

But a lot of people did it and
they ended up with selling like

maybe 10 of 50 or 10 of 100, and
now they're stuck with this

thing.

They can't really burn and yeah
.

So I had, in a weird way,
backfired against the space,

yeah.

And so then someone came out
with the idea of, like I'm going

to do one of ones, but a
collection of 50, but each one

is going to be a one of one.

I'm going to price it a lot
lower.

This was after Vince, you know,
vince Cactiqs.

Speaker 1: I don't know if you
remember one And no, I don't.

Speaker 2: He was the guy that
was in the space buying people's

art for way higher than most
people thought they were valued.

I'm actually the Vince days And
so new collectors were coming in

and being like a five eith
floor photography is ridiculous.

You guys should be selling
these less than a half.

And so someone I don't even
remember who did the first

collection, but someone came out
with the idea and it was like

revolutionary at the time and it
sold out immediately and

everyone sold that.

And then, just like the last
time, the next two days, like

everyone was been announcing
their collections, like I'm

coming out with a 30 or 50 piece
collection And yeah, and I

remember when I first started
seeing that talking to some

friends in the back channel,
being like this is cool to see

everyone selling out And it's
obviously getting a lot of hype

for photography.

This is like the silver lining
to it, right?

Or like the good side, the pros
, a lot of new collectors, a lot

of traffic and secondary sales
with photography which brings

more collectors in, and it
definitely pushed us to the

forefront of the NFT space.

Then the downside is like
equally negative as the good

side is positive.

You're saturating the space now
with one of one photographs,

which is going to drive the
overall price down for one of

one photography, so it's going
to be harder and harder to sell

one of ones for the five, eighth
floor that they used to be

worth, because now collectors
are going to be, you know,

they're like, well, these
amazing collections are coming

out where they're selling one of
ones for like point five, point

two, whatever down in that
range.

And then the second thing is a
lot of, i see a lot of artists

doing collections and not
selling out, and that can be

really damaging to your brand.

So I see everyone else selling
out and they do a collection.

Even really good photographers
have dropped collections and

they are still sitting there
with like 10 out of 50 sold,

right.

So now you are devaluing
photography a little more by

showing new collectors like
photography is not selling out

in these collections.

So they might think, oh, it
must not be a desirable art

medium Medium.

So that's the other, the other
downside.

So you get a saturation, a
lowering of prices for one of

ones, and you get some potential
photography reputation damage

from ones that are unsold.

And yeah, i don't know, i think
it's going to backfire in the

next couple months because
people are dropping them at

alarming rates.

It's ridiculous.

And the other thing is
collectors are going to kind of

end up shooting themselves in
the foot.

I think or sorry, creators, i
don't want to say some people

are doing them for cash grabby
reasons, and then others

actually have really good
collections.

But I see collections like
people are getting.

You know it's hard not to get
desperate and you want to sale.

So I see some collections
coming out being like these are

my 50 best pieces in my entire
gallery.

I'm selling them all at once
for like 0.25 Ethereum each.

It's like what?

are you going?

to do when that sells Like they
sell out usually, and sometimes

they don't, though.

So there's all your best pieces
sold out for 10, 15 each, like

that's a big sale.

But now you're out of your best
pieces And so the next

collection they're going to do
because everyone wants that next

dopamine hit.

I mean, the space is like a
drug.

It really is.

Yeah, and the next dopamine hit
, and I've seen it happen

already.

So then they release another
collection, but the quality is

less.

It's like their B roll shots,
but then they want another one,

and then it's their C roll shots
and it just the quality goes

down, because they started with
their best stuff.

Speaker 1: Gotcha.

Speaker 2: And they're shooting
themselves in the fucks.

They're running out of photos,
posts and they keep dropping

collections way too soon from
the last one selling out.

So then their secondary sales
are dropping out.

Why would you spy on secondary
if they're going to drop another

collection in another week?

Right, right, anyways I could
go on and on about that, and in

a lot of ways I think it's an
unpopular opinion, but I think

it's one of those things that
we'll see what I'm talking about

in like a couple of months.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean.

But something that you
mentioned that, though, sparked

a curiosity, is, like you know,
because it's, i think, a lot of

the speculative aspect about
crypto in general is a lot of

like, what drives that like that
impatience and that like quick

cash grab kind of mentality
because you don't know if

Ethereum is going to go to zero
tomorrow.

I mean, we like there's a
pretty strong conviction that it

won't, but it's we're not
living in Candyland to say that

that's not a possibility.

You know, right, there could be
some like massive regulation by

the government that, like you
know, makes it plummet and we

could, all you know, go back to
like what we were doing before.

I mean, that's like a really
like I don't really want to

think about that, but like
that's just a reality, that it

is.

You can't like ignore that.

But something that you mentioned
is that is that like it's like

the timing of the drops.

It's like you know, like if you
do it like a week, you know

like it.

So, in your opinion, like if
they did drops, but the drops

were like until they sold out,
or and if it was like every six

months, if it was like they did
two drops a year you know what I

mean Like that, to me that
would that would feel a little

bit more authentic in the space
versus just doing like once a

week and like having that, like
just you just start degrading

the market.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what
I see happening.

I think less and less time
between people's collections

that are selling out.

Some people are crushing it and
they're bringing so much good,

positive attention to the
photography space.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: And I would say in
the whole, I'd be curious what

Gary Vee would think about all
this.

Yeah.

It's hard to say in a high level
view and in its entirety, is it

more bad than good or vice
versa?

Yeah, cause you got a lot of
new collectors and photography

is being valued high as an art
form, finally being appreciated

as an art form.

Then, on the downside, you're
saturating the space.

Those are dumping their best
work into a collection, some of

them not selling out.

It's making it harder for those
of us who intend to slow

release and intentionally with
like a lot of intention, one

piece at a time.

Yep.

Also, there's this whole thing
about not following what

everyone else is doing, which I
see a lot of like something will

happen.

Someone will do a piece that
works or a collection that works

, And then the next morning
everyone and their mothers doing

the same thing, Like that's
just how the space works.

Yeah.

So I mean I wanted to do a
collection and I luckily.

I'm glad I didn't.

First of all, I don't have the
kind of breadth of work some of

these people do.

Like I, each one of my
photographs takes about six

hours to edit and, being a full
time engineer and a dad, I don't

have the time now.

I can't just like, yeah, I have
probably 30 photos left that I

would be comfortable minting as
a one of one, if even that, so

I'm forced into thinking of
something else, to do different.

That's also something that I've
kind of just liked.

It's my personality, like when
I go to national parks or famous

photography spots, how do I
shoot the same scene but in a

really unique way, right, i find
those fun challenges, and so I

kind of took that same same
mindset into the NFT space.

How do I do something that's
unique, that hasn't been done

before?

And then how do I do it in such
a way where it's actually

really hard to do, so that
people can't just come in and

copy me the next day after I
drop it, if that makes sense.

No, it does.

Speaker 1: It does.

Speaker 2: So I did that,
initially with parallax

animations which take like 30
hours apiece.

I trained myself and taught
myself how to.

I don't know if you know what
I'm talking about with these?

Speaker 1: No, I don't Yeah.

Speaker 2: Like turning a still
photograph into a moving living

image based on one photograph,
no video footage or anything.

Speaker 1: My, you know what I
do?

know that because my, my
designer that did all my Twitch

branding, you know all the, all
the graphics, like he did a lot

of animations, um, whether it's
from animated emotes or like

animated uh, like there there
are certain parts of, like, my,

my screens that were animated Um
, but there was no, yeah, no, I,

i, he's, yeah, and he ever
cause any.

any project that he that I paid
him for, that I commissioned him

for, that had any sort of
animation along that front was

like like triple the amount of
time it takes of what he

normally does for like a still
image.

Speaker 2: You know, um, yeah,
they take a long time, yeah, so

I I figured it out a way and I
kind of taught myself how to

take a still image and turn it
into a living like world.

I don't know, if you went to my
foundation you'd see what I'm

talking about.

I've got two pieces on there.

I wish I could screen share,
but yeah, apparently.

I think it might be brave, i
use Brave browser and it might

be blocking me from screen
shipping.

Speaker 1: I've been using that
a lot more on my phone, right.

Speaker 2: I'm actually going to
see if it lets me.

Now that I turned off the popup
blocker, does it work?

Nope, so does it work?

Speaker 1: Alright, so Alright.

so, actually, since it is
working for me, let's pull up.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so you see that
green piece right there.

Keeper of the north.

Yeah, so if you full screen it,
we'll see if it even

foundation's been kind of
lacking on their.

So this is a single photograph.

The northern light everything
is was an original, originally

just a still photograph, now
used after effects to move the

northern lights, to make the
ripples and the reflection and

to generate that lighthouse Wow.

And then all that light on the
foreground you see there when it

swings in front, yeah, of the
lighthouse.

That's all separate Photoshop
layers where I painted in the

light and then I just faded each
layer into one another in key

frames.

So this is zero video footage,
zero CGI.

It's all based on a single
image, wow.

So I started doing stuff like
that to separate myself from the

pack, and then if you go back
and look at the observer, it's a

different version.

It's the one right next to it,
yep.

So this is also a parallax.

This is all based on one image
and I separated the layers and I

use Z depth and 3D camera and
focal length to make it look

like drone footage.

Wow, it almost looks like it's
out of a video game.

Yeah, and it's all done with one
one photo, zero video footage,

zero CGI.

Wow, that's kind of the stuff I
was getting into to separate

myself from the pack early on,
yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 1: I like that.

Speaker 2: And yeah, see that
guy CAC ducks it like bought

like almost every single one of
my pieces.

If you scroll up it's like he's
.

CAC ducks, cac, ducks, like
it's crazy, Yeah, yeah.

So that was activated to that
waterfall.

That's a.

That's a base on a still image.

That's no video footage in
there either.

It's just on an infinite loop.

So you can take photographs and
you can make them moving with

software.

So that's kind of what I did.

Yeah, i.

that was kind of how I really
pulled away from the pack early

on and established a name for
myself.

Yeah, and recently the way I've
been doing that is the yeah,

the living photographs Yeah.

So I, every time I do something
unique, i want to make sure

that it's.

it sounds super, super dumb and
arrogant and everything which

is like against my core
personality.

So I'm usually hate talking
about myself in that light.

but whenever I do something
unique, I like to do it in a way

that other people can't do
right away.

I make it really hard so that
people can't copy me the next

day.

Yeah.

And that's one of the key
concepts I've learned from all

the entrepreneurial books I've
read and and business podcasts

and entrepreneurial podcasts
that I've and startup companies

that I've listened to Like do
something different and do it

different in a way that's hard
for others to copy.

That's how you make a good
product, essentially.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Cause people like
that's what people will pay for.

Like people will like pay for
products all day long, but like

when you, when you have a
product that stands out like you

don't even have to like worry
about asking for more money.

People are just going to pay it
because they they people

inherently want something
different every single time.

It's like that dopamine hit,
especially in the NFT space.

Like that that fresh dopamine
hit That's I'm not going to like

.

That's like.

What prompted this whole
podcast was when I saw that,

when I saw that transient piece
that you put.

That's like this is, this is
I've never seen this before.

Like this is incredible And I
love that you shared it so much.

Number one, just because I
think it's.

I think it's incredibly unique
And it's the first time.

I I'm not I don't know if it's
ever been done before, but it's

the first time I've ever seen it
.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been done,
at least in the talk your space

.

It hasn't been done the way
I've done it Right It's been

done before using ArtSync, which
I talked about in the Twitter

space.

Yeah.

Um, can someone like oh, did
you use ArtSync for this Or this

?

oh, i've seen something that's
you can do the same thing on

ArtSync.

I'm like no you can't actually.

It maybe looks like you can, but
the way the ArtSync works super

limited, you can only.

It only snaps to the photograph
at two times of the day.

So, like six AM and six PM, it
doesn't change time based on the

time of year or track the
actual sunset, sunrise times.

It's just like your Apple
desktop, those screensavers I

have.

So at six PM it just changes to
the night version.

Right.

Right And we wanted.

I was like no, no, no, you can
be better than that.

I want something that changes,
based on sunset times around the

world longitude, latitude, time
of year, cross fading at the

speed that the sun actually sets
.

So it's And you did the first
of its kind in that sense, and

it's never been done in
landscape photography I can say

that for sure, for certain.

So that's kind of my obsession
right now is doing those pieces.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I
think that it, and just to like

give some context around this as
well as, like you know, this is

one of the reasons why the end
of teasing is so popular is that

, like you can actually prove,
you know, like on a, on a public

, immutable ledger, that this
was the first time this was

actually done.

Like you know, when you look at
like collectibles and art and

sports cards, you kind of have
to just go with the trust me bro

Like mentality.

You know what.

I mean And like people can lie
People.

Can people like have an
incentive to lie people?

There's too much room for
humans to be their natural

selves.

You're like there, you know
what I mean.

Like where there's like I
wouldn't say natural stuff, but

like there's that side that
every human does have, and when

you have a motivation to like,
to like, exploit something, you

Not to say that no one ever has,
like doesn't have those

thoughts, but like it's more
likely to happen than when you

can just like, hey, here it is.

You know, and this was this can
never be changed or altered.

You know, yeah, that's pretty
cool.

Yeah, so just to kind of like
further for the right click save

as is in the JPEG.

You know the, you know the just
that that is one of the reasons

why, like, there is so much
attention towards the space is

because things can actually be
proven as a one of one, like

digital scarcity can actually be
created And you can prove that

flex that you were the first one
to do it like this in this

space, with all these different
attributes to it.

You know what I mean, right,
yeah?

Speaker 2: It's awesome to have
that too.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to.

I was hurrying this project up,
so I wanted to be the first in

a weird Yeah.

Ego centric way.

I don't even know what you'd
call it.

It's like being first is a big
deal in the space like this.

Speaker 1: It's a huge deal with
how fast innovation moves here.

Speaker 2: You know, yeah, so I
caught wind that other

photographers were in parallel,
kind of connecting the dots.

Like what, if, why, are we
doing?

like you can make a piece that
like lives, like?

I don't think they knew how to
do it, but I heard people

talking about it in Twitter
spaces, being like, oh, i have

this piece that like seasonally.

Maybe I could take it the same
spot winter, summer, spring and

fall and then have it changed
based on time of year.

And I was hearing this and I
was like, oh shit, starting to

like buzz around like I need to
get the shit out, because I've

been working on this for like
the last two months with my good

friend Marco, so that last two
weeks we had some late nights

getting all the bugs worked out.

We're like we need to release
this soon before someone beats

us to it.

Yeah, no doubt man.

So I got it out.

It's sold successfully to a
really good collector through a

bidding war, which is everything
you could ever hope for.

Right, bidding wars are a big
deal.

Yeah, it's nice to have one
collector by it, but if you have

a bidding war then you can at
least guarantee the other

collectors who lost are going to
be trying for that second one.

Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2: And it shows that
your pieces sought after and it

went to one of the best
collectors I could have had it

go to.

Who's here to support the
efforts and super.

I can't even handle this kind
of NFT yet.

So we're like really really
pushing the boundaries.

So I had to.

We were forced to do it on
OpenSea And that.

Speaker 1: OpenSea is great, but
I have a Super.

Speaker 2: Rare account.

It would have been perfect to
do this on Super Rare.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i was kind of
wondering why it was on OpenSea

and it wasn't on Super Rare.

Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people
were asking.

I think I tweeted like four
times, like I was like I've said

this and I'll say it again,
just so people know.

You know not everyone sees your
tweets, right, but I'd be like

if this is on OpenSea, because
they're the only platform that

can display the type of metadata
that makes this kind of piece

even possible in the first place
.

That's why it's on OpenSea.

That's incredible I called the
dev team and had a talk with

them at Super Rare, trying to
beg them, being like you guys

have to, like this is going to
be huge.

Like, just believe me, even
though I may not have believed

it myself, i was trying to sell
it that way I was like this is

going to be huge, it's going to
create a whole wave in the

market.

People are going to start
wanting to do this stuff.

Smart contract, custom smart
contracts are the way of the

future And they were just like,
oh, maybe one day we'll get to

displaying HTML metadata, but
right now we have other things

to focus on.

I was like, oh, my gosh, really
, so they wouldn't work with me.

And so, yeah, i had to go with
OpenSea.

And even though I went with
OpenSea, there were challenges

like you can't expand the iframe
, or like the iframe is what

HTML displays in.

So if you were to go to that
piece on OpenSea, you'll notice,

if you click on it, you can't
expand it.

Gotcha.

We got a piece that brings it up
in that pop up window.

Yeah.

Doesn't work with this because
they don't have the support to

do it So easy to do on their end
.

It would take their devs like
less than an hour to incorporate

that.

And then so we had to get
creative and put a link in the

description.

That's a hyperlink that opens
it in a new tab.

Yeah, oh yeah, the cover image
can't display the HTML, so we

had to use a stand in cover
image.

Oh wow, which is what that
clock is with the four pieces?

Yeah, yeah.

So there were a lot of
workarounds that we had to do.

I think that's just part of
pushing the boundaries.

Speaker 1: I was literally just
about to say that if you're

doing something that no one else
has done and trying to make

that as a use case, if you're
trying to convince people to

adapt to that when it hasn't
been done before that's the

challenge of doing that It
hasn't been done It's going to

be sick.

It turned out to be really
great, but from a business

perspective, companies have to
like they have so many things

that they're prioritizing And
God bless OpenSea man They

probably can't hire fast enough
for people that actually know

what they're doing.

Speaker 2: It's a good platform.

It is.

They're here to pay, for sure.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: So I think Rob Chevy
Pop, the guy who bought the

first piece, he immediately
tagged Super Rare And he's like

hey, super Rare, he knows people
on the inside.

He's like we need to talk, you
need to get this working so Ben

Strauss can put his stuff on
that platform.

Yeah, he's like, this is the
future.

I was like that's the best
collector to have someone that

hustles for you.

It's like that's awesome.

Yeah, man, so I'm hoping they
get their shit together, And

it's not.

it's really knowing what it
takes.

It's not that much.

They just need to be able to
point towards HTML metadata.

That's it.

It's not a huge overhaul on
their whole website.

Speaker 1: Gotcha.

Speaker 2: It's something they
could definitely get in fairly

soon.

So, yeah, there's that.

and then digital displays.

all the ones on the market
can't display this piece either,

really, yep, wow.

We've tested most, all of them,
including the token frame,

which was our highest hope,
because they connect to your

wallet.

Yeah.

Can't do it.

It just loads nothing, it's
just a question mark Pain.

So I was like, okay, so we're
ahead of that as well.

So yeah, a little teaser of
what's coming.

We're actually building our own
custom displays to display this

stuff to send to collectors.

Speaker 1: So like when they buy
this NFT, like the frame comes

with it, is that like They're?

Speaker 2: going to get a 16 by
20-ish sized like a I don't know

, probably like a 32-inch size
monitor, yeah, ultra thin, with

a custom programmed raspberry pi
encased on the back.

So it'll mount on the wall like
a little float mount and it'll

connect to the Wi-Fi and be able
to display HTML.

So we're going to make custom
displays, send to the collectors

.

Essentially is what we're doing
right now.

We're working on that.

We're engineers, so we do the
stuff all the time, so it's not

too far of a stretch.

But that's another utility is
we're just going to come up So

like, all right, fine, so we
will convince the platforms to

fix their stuff.

We're like, support our stuff
and then on top of that, we're

going to come up with our own
line of digital displays,

because no one else can display
this.

Speaker 1: Right, and you're
going to, you're going to drive,

but you're going to drive.

That's like part of like what
drives competition.

You know what I mean.

Like okay, kona, that's like
what drives competition.

You know what I mean.

Like just when you're able to
do that, then, like they're

going to be like oh shit, like
we need to do this.

You know what I mean.

And it's you're just going to
drive the market.

It's almost like the way I look
at it is like the way Elon Elon

musted it with the electric car.

Like you're not trying to like
there's going to be no clear

winner.

Like his whole motive in the
beginning when he started, that

was to like drive innovation in
the electric car space.

Like that's and that's.

That's consistently what he
does.

They're doing things that are
always so different and it's not

to like win, although he is
going to win number one because

it's a great product and people
love Elon.

I love Elon.

He's a meme Lord and he's like
he's incredibly intelligent at

what he does.

But you look at the electric
car market and where it's come

since that has come out and
since Tesla has been pushing all

of the innovations.

It allows other companies to
take note like man, like we need

to do this, like people are
really liking it, right?

You know, risk takers like you
just got to do something that's

different than the rest of the
crowd, and then the crowd will

follow, and then the mass
adoption will start coming in.

You know what I mean?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So I think it's crazy to be
that person kind of trailblazing

this.

I never thought.

No matter how much success I
think you get in a space, you

always just feel I'm going to
use my own words You always feel

like a tiny baby in that, in
that genre, i always feel like

the defense Trousa has zero
followers and no one knows who

the hell I am Like that's still
kind of my mindset.

But then I hear other people
talking spaces where I'll join a

space and they'll immediately
invite me onto the stage and

just gas me up for 20 minutes,
like how I'm a legend and a

pioneer and one of the first and
everyone's following what I'm

doing and I'm like this is crazy
to hear this kind of stuff.

That's not how I think about it
.

But yeah, if you're going to do
something different, yep, do it

in a hard way.

Number one also if you bought
up against technological

limitations, then instead of
waiting for people to figure it

out, trick and build it yourself
.

If you can Find someone, i can.

Speaker 1: Find someone I can.

That was our mentality behind
the display.

Speaker 2: We're like all right,
well, people are spending 20,

30 grand on our pizzas.

We're not going to wait for
token frame to get stuff

together, We're going to build
our own frame and send it to

them.

Speaker 1: Absolutely man.

Speaker 2: Absolutely, and then
just bully super rare into

getting my words supported on
their platform.

That's the next thing, and it
helps to have Rob on my side and

I think after this next piece
goes on, open sea, for I mean,

who knows, i'm not going to have
expectations, but right right.

If it goes for over 20, or
whatever it's like.

All right, guys.

What's 15% of 20 that you just
missed out on commission because

you didn't have the support on
your platform?

I'm doing the calculation right
now because head math, even

though I'm an engineer, is not a
strength.

So three, so they're missing
out on $12,000.

Do you think it really costs
$12,000 to display an eye frame

or just be able to link metadata
or HTML?

I don't know much about
software development costs, but

I've been feeling it's worth it
for them.

Speaker 1: Well, you keep
multiplying it by however many

pieces you drop, then the cost
keep adding up.

Speaker 2: And it's on super
rare.

I had a lot of collectors say
that had it been on super rare,

they think that it would have
gone well over 20 ETH.

This first piece.

Speaker 1: No 100%.

Speaker 2: It was because it was
on open sea that it wasn't

received as highly.

even though I have a super rare
approved artists, they're like,

yeah, i think it's because it
was on open sea that you had a

hard time getting it the auction
to kick off right away.

I was like, yeah, maybe it's
crazy to think that, but

platforms have an impact.

Speaker 1: It all makes a
difference.

I mean perceptions, everything
you know, perceptions,

everything but one of the one.

To start wrapping things up,
man, i think it's a good note to

end on.

We've been going at this for
about two hours.

Speaker 2: Hopefully I'm sorry
that I'm.

Yeah, i think I can talk about
this stuff forever.

It's fun.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I want to,
you know, I know you, you know

I want to respect time with the
kid and I love that man.

Speaker 2: He's doing good.

He's actually been pretty legit
today.

Speaker 1: He has man.

Speaker 2: Have you been doing
good?

Yeah, i'm surprised.

I'm just gonna nap through most
of it, and wasn't too much of a

hassle Anyways.

Yeah, we'll wrap it up.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, because I
like I know this is probably

going to be first and many of
whether it's Twitter Spaces,

whether it's another podcast
Like I'd love to have you on,

especially as you evolve,
especially, as you know, i have

a few things like I want to do,
but I'm still in this heavily

like right now it's podcasting,
but there's a lot of ideas that

I have and I'm just like doing
everything I can to like learn

from everyone that I'm, that I'm
in.

I'm just like you had to build a
community.

You got to make connections
first before you really, like,

do something meaningful in this
space, right?

So I'd love to have you on
again soon, because this was a,

this was fantastic man.

I love how, like, we probably
went in 30 different directions

with this stuff.

I mean, people are going to get
a lot of value out of it, but

the kind of you know, give you
some gas or give you a plug,

like, if you want people to find
you, where's the place where

you the most active and where
would you like people to look

for your work?

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it used
to be.

Instagram was most active, but
it's moved to Twitter because of

NFTs and the community is just
badass.

Yeah, so that would be Twitter.

At Ben Stross photo, i have a
link tree in my bio that also

takes to my Instagram and then
to find my work.

If you want to like see my work
, twitter is not a very good

space yet for for viewing work.

I think they will introduce a
gallery tab though that displays

your artwork like Instagram.

But, yeah, instagram is a good
place to just peruse through the

work or my website.

That's Ben Stross
photographycom.

And for anyone who actually
wants to learn how to process

images, like I do, i have an
entire subscription base First,

that I've never seen done before
.

So I built a Netflix into my
website that I load every edit

of every photo onto that website
.

It's kind of like a Patreon,
but I didn't want to pay them,

so I just made my own website
and it's called the vault.

So, yeah, those are probably
the top places right now.

As of right now, i'm sold out.

I have zero NFTs for sale,
other than my one of 100, which

is quickly coming to an end,
actually.

Yeah, so last I checked, there
was like 65 owners.

Yeah, it's getting up there,
something like that.

Probably still around there.

Yeah, yeah, that was.

Speaker 1: that was my yeah, the
color of the Rockies.

I think there's 65 owners, so
there's 35 left.

Speaker 2: So that's steadily
going.

So I wasn't trying to sell out
of that.

That's just to give people an
option to get something.

But yeah, I think it'll sell
out quick.

But yeah, that's the only thing
I have available right now.

Which is good Creates demand,
but I'll be dropping my next

piece tomorrow, but for everyone
who's listening to this,

that'll be well gone.

Hopefully it might still be
there enough.

Oh yeah, and then the next
transient piece is dropping in a

week probably.

Dude so sick man.

I'm excited for that one.

Speaker 1: Hell yeah, this has
been a, this has been good man.

Then I yeah, dude, thank you
for coming on in such a way.

I might like I think I DM'd you
on Thursday or Friday and then

we did this on Sunday.

This is I just.

I like how fast that moves.

And again, thanks for coming on
, man, this has been a treat.

Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for
having me, It's been a lot of

fun.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: Taking every
opportunity to talk about this

space.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean, my last
episode was with Jimmy, jimmy

Eathe, and he's just like you
know I don't understand this

like barrier to entry that some
people have.

It's just like, dude, i like
talking about NFTs, you like

talking about NFTs?

We're just gonna do it on a
podcast.

Yeah, you don't like it.

It's pretty sick man, but I'll
let you get.

I'll let you get to it and then
you have a great rest of your

day, man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you as well,
take care.

Speaker 1: Thank you for joining
us on another episode of the

Schiller Vaulted podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation as we close out

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Until next time, this is Boone
signing off.