Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to Vaulted, a Web3

podcast series from the Schiller
Archive.

This episode was originally
recorded on August 8th 2022 and

features Victor Mosquera, a
visual artist in the Web3 space

whose mantra is everything
connected.

Victor has been creating art
for over a decade and has sold

work multiple times at both
Christie's and Sotheby's, and

has one of the most esteemed
collector bases in Web3.

We discuss his movie-like story
of how art found him, how

Victor and fuck render both came
up together in the art scene,

and the non-linear and
ever-changing journey of being a

full-time artist.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

inspiring chat with Victor.

GM Victor, how are you man?

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, how are
you feeling, man?

How's the everything going?

Speaker 1: It's going good.

Before this, i must admit, i
got a late start.

I was on, you remember big
Twitter spaces back in March,

april, may, where they were
actually, for the most part,

really good.

You could go in and learn
something and talk to really

intelligent people and there
wasn't all this noise, there

wasn't just a bunch of
bagpumping going on.

Speaker 2: Oh man, yeah, Dude, I
retired from rooms even before

that.

I used to be very early on in
the clubhouse rooms.

It was so sick that even when
Twitter spaces started, I was

like I don't know, there's
something weird going on.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, clubhouse,
in my opinion, once they got

the quality nail, that's one
thing I got to respect about

clubhouses.

They have figured it out.

It's really seamless.

It's really smooth compared to
what it used to be when it first

came out.

I say that to say I was on a
Twitter space where I wasn't

planning on being there for
three hours, but I was there for

three hours.

I met some really cool people
and we talked about some really

great topics.

That's what I was doing, man.

Late start today, man, but just
kicking in here, man, how about

yourself?

Speaker 2: Good man, honestly,
just working away.

After I came back from New York
I was staying there after an

FCMC for a few days, just kind
of relaxing, because that one

was kind of crazy We'd work and
traveling for work and stuff

like that.

Back in Vancouver now just
working away, getting ready for

the next half of the year and
organizing projects, thinking

about new things to release,
playing happy trips too.

Just getting ready for the
second half of the year, for

sure.

Speaker 1: Sick man Sick.

I always like to tell some
story about how I meet people

and bring them onto the show.

I randomly met.

I was at an NFT NYC and I got
invited to the Time Hall event

and sat next to John Knoth.

Victor and John were like
bullshitting the entire time.

I'm like, okay, this guy seems
cool, man.

They were fucking with Keith,
they were doing all this shit.

I'm like, man, this guy seems
dope as hell.

Man.

Instantly, man, once we started
chatting we did a tour of the

time office and we actually got
told to shut up.

I was like you know what man,
this guy we got to have on a

show because, man, we barely
knew each other.

But sometimes it doesn't really
matter, it's really the vibe

that you get and man couldn't be
happier to have you on your

Victor, welcome man.

Speaker 2: Same man.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, that was funny man,
because I feel like me, like I

know John for a while too and I
know Keith for even longer

probably.

I feel like we're always like
the kids in the back of the

class just making fun and just
talking shit.

Yeah, I feel like that's kind
of how I gravitate to people too

.

It's like if I talk to you
right away and then right away

we're just kind of like vibing
and having fun and clicking.

I'm like we're homeless now,
basically.

Speaker 1: That's right, man.

We're talking about video games
.

We're talking about Halo, we're
talking about Gears of War,

we're talking about Call of Duty
, man, and it was like that's

outside of entities.

That's the only topic that you
can't get me to shut up about.

Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, i told
you I used to work in games for

a while.

I'm not a gamer myself I never
been but I know about it because

I used to be in the gaming
industry for so long.

Speaker 1: Dude so like, and I
don't.

We may have gotten there, but
that might have been when they

told me to shut up.

So what did you do in the
gaming industry?

How were you involved in that?

I used?

Speaker 2: to be a concept
artist for a company called

Ubisoft in.

Speaker 1: Toronto, that's right
, you told me that Okay.

Yeah, i want to hear more.

Yeah, I want to hear more.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so, dude,
basically that's how I got into

Canada too.

This company can find my work
online.

And then they offered to
relocate me and basically, like

they sponsored me to be able to
like live in Canada and work in

Canada.

So, yeah, what I was doing, i
was doing concept art for like I

bought like they're triple A
video games, so I got a chance

to work on like Far Cry 5, i
think it was, and Watch Dogs,

starlink, like all those games
that they were doing at the time

.

Yeah, and I think it was like
five years or something like

that.

But then again, it's like I'm
not a gamer.

I really don't care about video
games that much, except for the

art.

Like I love the art for video
games.

And yeah, like the whole time I
was just kind of wondering why

I was doing that.

It's like the reason why I got
into art was to do like stuff

for myself and because I had
something to say with my art.

So, yeah, it was like a few
years I'm just doing that, just

to kind of make a living out of
art and trying to make art, you

know that's kind of cool man
Like you probably didn't.

Speaker 1: You had no intention
of.

You're not like a gamer
historically, you haven't, you

know.

But it's just like stars
aligned.

You know one thing that I don't
know if you still have a

relationship with people at
Ubisoft, but someone needs to

advise that team on how to do
NFT drops, because I don't know

if you saw when they tried to do
that.

Speaker 2: Oh God, dude, yeah, i
have no comments and even

waiting for it, because I do
talk to a few people there.

Oh, okay, you know what's
actually really weird?

I find out that video game
people in general they hate NFTs

And I can say that 100% because
I know a lot of people in the

industry and every time that I
was talking to those people they

were like nah, man, like this
is just wack and like all this

stuff.

And I was like what do you mean
?

Like this is made for video
games.

Like this is almost like
inspired by video games.

Like what are you talking about
?

Like, if somebody can take like
advantage of this is video

games.

And I feel I don't know why.

I don't really know the reason
why, but yeah, it's weird, like

I don't know.

Again, that's another reason
for me to like find video game

industry weird.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll
actually tell you as a you know,

what's interesting is, i'm a
gamer myself.

That's actually what I was
doing before this.

I was interviewing people in the
eSports industry And then once

I you know, once the people sale
hit oh yeah, yeah, once the

people sale hit, like that was
just like okay, like this is,

you know, i can't stop talking
to people and I can't talk to

people in eSports.

I've talked to people here.

But what's really interesting
with gaming because I had the

same reaction, that was what
clicked for me is that, like I

got onboarded through the people
sale And at that time I wasn't

like what you would call like an
art collector or like an art

appreciator, like I did.

you know I was.

I was still like really green
in that area, but what I did

know was video games, you know,
and I did know that I spent

thousands of dollars, you know,
on cosmetic skins and call duty.

you know, not Fortnite I never
buy anything in Fortnite, but

you know call duty, and that was
the first moment for me where

it was like holy shit, like I
can own what I buy.

I currently don't own what I buy
, you know why.

You know it was that and I
remember that when I asked the

question, i'm like, why don't I
own it, you know, and that was

like exactly, that was the first
time I thought of that.

So, but what's really
interesting to your point about

like why, historically, a lot of
gamers are like, really against

this.

at least from what I've seen
and from what I've observed, is

that number one.

just with, if you, if you zoom
out to any topic of conversation

that's polarizing, regardless
of whether it's political or not

political, just any any sort of
like topic, the only people

that hear each other are the
really like people on the, on

the, on the outsizes are the
loudest.

you know what I mean.

Like they're like oh yeah, you
mean the super passionate, the

super just ridiculous, like
theories that come out of the

people from like the like two
opposite ends of the corner.

That's what man, people in
gaming are really jaded about

being over monetized and gaming.

So you remember, like when EA
did that whole thing where they

just like transacted the hell
out of gamers and, like they, it

was pay to win.

It was like, so you know, oh
yeah, man.

So you know, gamers have
historically been like over

monetized, like they've been
monetized to death.

You know.

So it's like and I say they
like, i'm a gamer at heart, like

, but it's like gamers have been
over monetized to death.

And it's like all the companies
that have like come out with a

gaming chair or a gaming mat,
you know, gaming this, gaming

that, and it's like, is it
really gaming or are you just

trying to extract?

you know you extract value out
of an ecosystem, right, so?

yeah, so when gamers see any
sort of financial tools coming

into gaming, there's immediately
going to be a wall that gets

put up like, no, no, no, like,
get the fuck out of here.

Like, we don't, like, we don't,
we are so sick and tired of

being monetized, you know, like,
and not getting getting

anything in return from y'all
infiltrating our ecosystem,

because it's a very thriving
ecosystem, right?

So when you look at it from that
perspective.

It's like it makes sense right
Now, because they're only

hearing these like DeFi, ponzi,
mechanics and all this like

crazy shit that like people are
trying to like think of in all

these games and they're like
dude.

We don't want any of that in
our game.

Like that actually is not what
we game for.

And to segue, the second side
of that coin is that when, when,

when I load up a video game,
I'm not trying to think about

reality.

I'm trying to get lost in a
story I'm trying to like become

this character.

I'm trying to escape reality,
right?

So when you introduce any sort
of like financial mechanism like

that introduces a bit of
reality into what you're trying

to like not be a part of, if
that makes sense, right?

Speaker 2: Oh, a lot of reality,
a lot of reality, right, yeah,

yeah, yeah, that makes sense,
that makes sense And I never

thought of it like that And it
makes so much sense actually.

You know that I think about it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean and so,
but it's so, it's like okay, now

that we have understood, like
why gamers are like really super

angry about this, you know.

and now how do we, how do we
like show them that it's not

that bad, How do we show them
that it's like we're no, we're

trying to like help you like
actually own your things right,

like it's like you can have
digital representation, you can

actually own what you buy.

Speaker 2: So more about that,
at least more about about the

you know like the monetary
aspect of it is more about like

just ownership, basically.

Speaker 1: That's right, that's
it.

Like, like, like the reality,
victor, is that like all I want

to do is I just want to have the
ability to own my call to do

skins and my valorant skins.

That's, that's all I want.

Like nothing else about the
thing needs to change.

I could give, like keep making
great games, but like all I know

is that, like, when I buy it,
when I introduce my hard earned

money into there, like I just
want to, i just want to own it.

Speaker 2: You know, that's
that's really it, own it, yeah,

own it, it makes sense, honestly
, just like the minimum, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't need
all this other crazy shit that,

like you know, some of these,
some of these people are like

conjuring up.

I'm like, maybe we do And maybe
I'm just like a boomer, like,

but I don't really give two
shits about it, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, dude,
honestly, like it comes to that

too, like it comes to the reason
why you play video games, and I

feel like, as somebody who
works in that industry, that's

the idea Like they actually do
like to do that.

I used to do what's it called
Like like I'm watching them.

They have a contest in room
with like a mirror and I'm like

watching, like, like, like
almost like a police

interrogation room, but it's for
people to like watch kids

playing games, just to see what
they like, what they don't like

all this stuff.

And the goal was always like,
yeah, they take people away from

reality and just like like
immerse them in this world.

That this specific video game
is kind of a presenting.

But yeah, i feel like it comes
to reason why you do things you

know.

It's like I can relate to that
in the way that I Like that's

what I do is like I do NFTs,
right, but the reason why I make

NFTs like I'm an artist first,
so I never ever think about like

economics or tokens or this
kind of stuff.

Like when I do art, i'm like
this is my art and if you

believe in my career, if you
believe in what I've done and if

you believe in what I can do,
then welcome to the family,

basically.

But yeah, like I never, the
main reason why I do anything is

because of art, and art is that
the force kind of driving this

whole vehicle, you know.

Speaker 1: It is, i mean in the
reality.

I'll tell you, victor, like
when I first came here I didn't

understand.

You know that like I was still
trying to like, you know, still

like working, it's trying to
like build up my career and like

figure out life and like
understand, like what the hell

to even do.

And you know, but I never,
really I never looked at art in

that way And I never.

I had a very narrow scope of a
very limited scope of like what

art actually was.

You know, like what it was,
what it wasn't.

So I think that that was one of
the biggest eye-openers for me

is that, like, when I came here,
it was like holy shit, man,

like I started, i started seeing
everything different, like I

started even looking at like my
keyboard and like my audio

interface and my microphone And
it's like an artist somewhere

designed that you know, like
there was a thought process.

Oh yeah, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: So, oh dude,
literally everything around us,

even the interface that we're
using for talking right now, and

everything, like everything is
just like man-made and like

somebody actually have to come
with these ideas, like solve

specific problems.

Yeah, if you actually think
about it, it's like a very

trippy thing to kind of realize
once you do realize that you

know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and once I had
that realization and you start,

and then I started hearing all
the stories, like when I started

talking to all these people,
all these artists that I've had

on, it's like, holy shit, man,
like, if art is, if design and

art is really the backbone of
what drives every of what drives

product and what drives
business and what drives

everything, like, why has it
historically been really

undervalued?

or why has art not appreciated
until someone died?

Why you know, like, what, like
why all of the you know what I

mean.

Like that was just the
questions that I had And it's

just.

I think that is part of what
it's not.

it wasn't my part of my initial
conviction, but it's what

strengthened it.

Like the more and more I started
participating here.

is that like, wow, like smart
contracts are pretty dope, this

technology is pretty dope.

Like artists can actually make
a living on what they create.

Like and not it's not to say
that it won't be hard and not to

say that it's like not gonna be
, you know, like it's still

gonna be a lot of fucking work,
but like there's actually a path

forward.

that's real, if that, you know,
there's actually a real like a

real path forward You know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i mean that's
kind of like what changed for

all of us, like when we started
doing this back in 2020, like I

have the same.

I mean maybe that's why I did
like met other people through

NFTs, but like a bunch of the
friends that I have now that

make art together, we've been
doing this for I mean, in my

case, i've been doing art for
like 12 years And I know some of

these people for I don't know,
i know like people like Fuck

Render that is like my best
friend for like seven years.

Or Mando Jones I know him for
like, yeah, seven years.

Like I know those old people
from way back And like I feel

like we all came together on
like can I Instagram like days?

basically.

So, yeah, it's wild Cause.

Like the reason why you do
certain things is because you're

just passionate about something
right.

And with art specifically, i
don't know, i feel like the

reason when it's like dangerous
for art is when art becomes like

a commodity, which in other,
especially with NFTs like it's

very easy to like become that
for a lot of people.

But it's like, dude, it's like
it's culture, you know.

It's like it's like music or
it's like theater or fashion,

like there's a crowd for
everything And like, if you

really think about it like it's
kind of like it's been really

unfair, that it's like something
like so undervalued, because

that's I mean especially coming
from COVID.

You know everybody's at home
consuming art, everybody's at

home consuming what other people
did creatively, like TV shows,

movies, reading, books, painting
, like all this stuff that is

very necessary for life, cause
it's like I like people, people

see it.

A lot of people can see it as
like distract me basically, but

I do believe that it's like
things are essential for life,

for you to have like a complete
life.

You know, it's like even, even
even somebody who's, like I

don't know, like a numbers guy
and like a very like pragmatic

guy, like I don't know like an
accountant, and he's making a

lot of money.

He's gonna spend his money on,
like I don't know like a nice

house, an architect design or
nice clothes that somebody

designed, you know.

So it's like art specifically,
that it's like a very specific

branch of kind of like.

You know like that world, but
yeah, like all of it is

necessary, like super necessary.

Speaker 1: It is Yeah And I and
yeah it literally I can't, i

can't find a point to disagree
with you Like cause.

This is slight.

That's that's part of what, i
guess, motivated him Again like

it.

It wasn't what initially got me
in the door but like, once I

was in the door is what helped
strengthen like like cause.

You know like when you're in a
new industry, you know there's

there's a lot of speculation,
there's a lot of uncertainty,

there's a lot of like we're
still like not to play on the

meme, but like we're still like
incredibly early with how new

this technology is.

You know, and and you know
there's now granted, i think the

people that were way before you
know URI and the NFT industry

as well, or just in crypto in
general, that you know they had

to have way more conviction
before they were actually a use

case even came to fruition.

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: You know.

Speaker 1: So you know, like
every time I get mad about

something, like I'm not mad, but
you know, if I'm being honest,

there are parts that have been
parts of my journey where I've

like been jealous of like some
of these big back holders that

get to buy up all this art and
they get to do all this the cool

shit.

But I'm like you know what man,
like these motherfuckers had

conviction.

Wait, when I was still thinking
it was a joke, right, like

these guys stacked it at, like
sent on pennies on the dollar

dollar two dollars, ten dollars,
hundred dollars They back

before there was really a real
place to spend it, you know, and

there was a real use case for
it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah.

So you know that's like they
deserve it Like yeah, they do,

they do Yeah, but you mentioned
that.

Speaker 1: You mentioned that
you've been creating art for 12

years, man, so like what, i
guess before it was like what

got you, like I guess, where did
you start?

man, like, let's like, let's
like wind it back a little bit,

like, where did you?

where did like, when did you
kind of like start Like, or

where was like, was there a
moment, was there not a moment

to just kind of like fall in
your lap, like, tell me like how

you got started on all this
Good?

Speaker 2: So I I'm again like.

I was born in Colombia and I
think I was like fortunate

enough that there's like a few,
a few things in that equation

Like I've like all my life I was
like exposed to it, like my,

especially like my dad was like
super into art and music and

like college and all this stuff,
so he kind of exposed to me

like all these things very early
on And, honestly, dude, like

being completely honest with you
, even now I'm useless except

from like making art, like I I
didn't care about anything else

in my life.

So I, literally that's the only
thing that I'm gonna do.

That, right, yeah, so I've been
like drawing like as a kid and

like painting and I was making
music before.

I was like like like a touring
musician back in Colombia before

I was like actually making
money out of art.

So, yeah, i used to play like
rock music and stuff like that.

That's when I was like super
into like tool that we were

talking about before and
everything That's awesome man

Yeah.

So I've always been just been,
yeah, dude.

I've always been like dude.

Honestly, i have the best time
of my life.

But again, it's like I've
always been just like way too

interested into like art and
like doing creative things as

opposed to like getting a job to
survive anywhere.

And I feel like Colombia was a
place that in I mean Colombia's

a place that has a lot of issues
like politically and

economically and all this stuff.

And there was like two things
at the time that just kind of

like I don't know, i guess
helping form my decisions.

And it's like growing up in
Colombia, especially like in the

90s, was, i mean, that's
probably, like you know, like a

very weird place to grow out,
like there's all these like

violence going on and like this
kind of drug problem happening

and all that stuff.

So yeah, it was a place that is
very defined like negative

things growing up.

And I feel like, since I was
like very young, i was just

trying to escape all that,
because I just didn't, i didn't

want that in my life, you know.

So I was just trying to escape
and I feel like that kind of

like make my interest for art
more strong, because I was just

like lost in music and lost in
art and kind of books and, i

guess, video games too and the
kind of stuff you know.

And then there was also
something else that I just want

from a very early age And it was
like people again, it's like

it's a country where it's really
hard to make a living doing

anything, yeah, yeah, it's like
going into a taxi and like I

don't know, like the driver was
like what's up?

man, like what are you doing?

I was like Oh no, i mean it's
cool, or whatever.

And I was like what do you do?

And they guys, well, I'm
actually a doctor, but I'm I

have to drive a taxi now because
it's really hard to find a job.

And I'm like, oh fuck, and that
was very, very common Like just

finding like architects or
engineers or doctors or like

these positions, like these
people that went to school for

things that technically you will
be making a lot of money for,

like that is like a safe job to
have, and then they were driving

taxes and doing all this stuff
just to make a living because

they couldn't find jobs.

So that that's fucked me up from
a very early age, cause I was

like that's my worst fear, like
going, going into something that

I don't care, cause I didn't
care about anything else besides

music and art, and then
spending all this money, energy,

years, like into something that
in my work, so yeah, like when

I was like I don't know, like I
was doing music at this point

And when I was like maybe 19 or
18, i was like make art and

either I make it or I'll just
die trying to make it Right.

Like that's, that was like the
only thing.

Um, so yeah, like dude, like I
have a few years where I was

like completely insane, like
obsessed dude, and like I I

don't regret it, but like
thinking back on like what, what

was it doing?

So I spend the day that I took
the decision I used to be like

in art school and it wasn't
working out for me And I just

went to my family that, at the
time, was paying a shit ton of

money that we didn't have, uh,
to keep me in this school, and I

just went to them and I was
like, hey, uh, this is not

working out for me.

I don't want you to spend more
money.

Let's make a deal Give me like
one year and give me half the

money that you're spending on a
semester in this school or

whatever.

I'll buy a computer with that.

Just give me, give me one year
to see what happens And then

I'll figure something out.

And then I spent literally like
yeah, like the whole year just

basically like doing I don't
know like 18 hour days, just

like I used to like wake up, eat
and then sit in the computer

like with my sketchbook or my
paints or whatever, and just

like learn how to paint.

Yeah, uh, yeah, i was completely
obsessed, like obsessed dude,

like I was like I'm going to
make this no matter what And I

spend dude.

I remember like back in the day
I used to uh, cause my English

wasn't that good back in the day
, like I barely spoke any

English or anything, And I used
to like go online into like

American schools that I couldn't
afford, like our center and all

these places that were like the
best in the world for like

illustration or painting or
whatever, And I just like

download the curriculum and try
to replicate it at home.

So I was like, oh, these people
study drawing and perspective

and all this stuff.

So I used to like buy books in
English that I couldn't read.

That's how I actually learning
was like trying to learn how to

paint Basically.

So fucking, yeah, dude, it was
wild, like honestly, like I

think about it now and I'm like
what a psychopath.

But you know, like I was like I
was not doing that right now, i

was like I was just super
passionate about it.

I mean, i'm still am but like I
was super passionate about

almost prevent myself that I
could do it, cause I was like I

know that I can do this, like I
know that I can do this, and I

know that I have to put the work
in, yeah.

So yeah, i was doing all kinds
of crazy stuff.

Like I remember like I used to
like sit down a bunch of nights,

like way too many nights, just
like sitting down to like paint,

and then the next thing I know
the sun is coming up and I'm

like, oh shit, i've been here
for like I don't know how many

hours.

So I used to be like really,
really obsessed And I guess it

paid off because, like after
doing that for a full year, i

started getting like kind of
like traction on like I guess at

the time was like Facebook, and
then I got my first job in

Columbia in like a mobile game
company And then I was there for

a little bit And then I I
wanted to like keep growing and

keep expanding, and I guess the
the traction that I was getting

was getting bigger.

And then you got to a point that
you know like a company like

you.

So so myself and they were like
we want you to be down to like

relocate Wow.

Speaker 1: Wow, there is a dad
that I was, i'll be honest, man,

i wasn't expecting that, no,
that that like there's a lot of,

there's a lot of, there's a lot
of point.

There's a lot of things that I
heard there, but one thing I

wanted to touch on is that, like
you mentioned the 18 hour days

and the one, just some context,
for that is like you were doing

18 hour days before.

18 hour days were like the
thing to do to become an

entrepreneur.

You know what I mean.

Like you know, like now it's
like this whole culture Is that?

Speaker 2: a thing.

Speaker 1: Oh dude, well, like
cause well, part of it is like

I'm a big Gary, like do you know
Gary V?

Like does all the V friends and
yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: I'm a like.

I'm a huge fan of his, like I.

I was, like I'm a huge fan of
his.

I was following him before I
came into space.

But, like you know, he's one of
those people that just is

really gifted with a really
crazy work ethic and understands

business, understands people,
like really get at what he does.

You know, but a lot of the
culture that he created is that

like this like super grindy
hustle mentality of doing it

when and people would like
neglect a lot of people that

weren't cut out for it.

We're doing this and like
neglecting their own health in

there and neglecting all this
other shit.

But it's like you know, hello,
yeah, but you know what I mean.

But you were, you were.

That's something that I think
it's something that people it's

cool that you did it at that age
, because at that time you have

so much, you have so much time
like you can afford to like,

even if that didn't pan out,
even if it didn't work out, like

there's still so much time to
make up for that, there's still

so much you're going to and
you're going to figure out what

you want doing that.

You know what I mean.

So you can make that mistake.

You can, you can do that And
especially cause, especially at

that age.

You know, our bodies are just
incredibly resilient to just

about anything.

Speaker 2: I was going to say my
body could take it.

I wouldn't do it now.

My body cannot take it anymore.

But, like at that time I'm
happy that I did there, mainly

like I didn't even care that
much about like having headroom

to like fix, like or to like get
back the time that I lost,

because I was like dude even now
.

Like even now I'm like this is
what I do.

Like I was like I'm going to
make it if I'm 20, if I'm 21, if

I'm 51, if I'm 92, like I'm
just going to make it, no matter

what, i don't care how long it
takes.

But I think the one thing that
I could afford was like my body

taking dude.

I was literally like sleeping a
few hours, like I don't know

five hours maybe, and then
waking up and doing it all over

again, and then on top of that,
I was like 19 or 20.

So I was like maybe doing an 18
hour days.

I'm serious Like probably like
Monday to Friday and then Friday

.

All my friends used to like not
be in school.

So they were like let's go out
and get fucked up, and I was

like, yes, i was like.

I was like literally like doing
crazy hours in the weekend, and

then Friday, saturday I get
fucked up And then Sunday

hangover day, and then let's do
it all over again.

Speaker 1: Man, that's awesome.

No, the point I was trying to
make is that, like, it's almost

like a hustle culture has almost
been glamorized, And what we

were talking about before we
actually talked about offline,

where it's like people recording
, you know, videos at concerts

and it's like literally just to
flex.

There's a lot of this like
glamorization of flexing This

like hustle culture is not
really hustle culture, it's just

hustle culture.

So you other people can think
that you're doing that.

You know what I mean.

Other people can think that,
like you're, you're this, like

crazy, you know this crazy
genius that's doing this or this

insanely hard worker.

But point I was trying to make
is that, like you know, this was

there was not really a whole
lot of influence like outside

influence.

It was more inside influence of
like I'm going to do this

regardless of what the end
result is going to be.

Like this is because, like I
couldn't imagine doing anything

else besides doing exactly what
I'm doing right now.

You know what I mean And and
that was the point.

That was the point I was trying
to make is that, like there was

no, like I'm sure you did have
external influences and we'll,

we'll, you know, get to that in
a minute.

I'm also curious, but, like you
know, this was primarily

motivated by not wanting to be
that guy that was an architect,

or that that guy that was a
trainer and had to be a taxi cab

driver because he couldn't find
work.

Like that, you know it's, it's
funny how those memories, like

they, it has a really, really,
really big impact of like

they're not going to do that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, huge, huge,
huge, huge And like dude like I,

i I did because, again, it's
like not only that, because like

they're like literally like I
always say this when when I

decided to be an artist in
Columbia, that's like double

suicide In a in a place like
Columbia, because it's like not

only it's hard to find any job
in Columbia and I'm like, fuck

it, i'm going to be an artist,
and he's like what the hell are

you thinking about?

Right, but like that's, that's
that.

That was a huge motivation for
me.

I was like watch me, so like
even even not only not only this

, but like, even like me moving
away from Columbia to like this

is like I don't know.

10 years ago, when I moved to
Canada to work in video games, i

was like, let's like, i told
you like I was like watch me, do

it, i'm going to do it, no
matter what.

And yeah, dude like.

I, i, I.

I feel like that hostile
culture thing is like I don't

know.

Like I guess people fix it, but
like to me, i actually feel

like it's very unhealthy And the
only reason why I was able to

do it the truth, the only reason
why I did it was because I love

art so much that I just didn't
want to do anything else.

I didn't want myself to do it,
i just that was just my brain.

I was craving it, like I
remember like if I was like I'm

way better now, but like and I'm
older now too, you know but

like I remember just being at a
lunch with some friends and I

was like I don't want to be here
, i want to be painting, or on a

road trip, and I was like I
wish I was like learning how to

do these, or like I was just so
obsessed with it because I love

it so much that, yeah, it just
became my life And it is my life

.

Like we do literally everything
.

Everything that has happened
that is good in my life is

because of art, including my
best friends, and like

relationships, or like this is
happening because of art, you

know.

So like I've liked the best in
traveling, all this stuff.

It happened because of art, so
I'm incredibly grateful to art

and I'm incredibly grateful that
I was so in love with art to be

able to do all this stuff.

Speaker 1: No, it's awesome, man
, and something I wanted to.

I was even before, even before
I was checking through some of

the time collections, i was
checking through some of your

work and I was like, i was like
I was like looking at your style

and I don't, and forgive me,
i'm still, i'm still learning

about the different styles and
art.

So you know, i'm going to and
little sounding, little sounding

, you know, like I don't know
what I'm talking about.

You know what is your style
Like, what is your style of art

called Like and where did you,
where did you like, gather some

of your inspiration from man
Like what?

what is it that you're looking
for?

What is it that like makes you
know like your stuff on super

rare Like?

what is it that makes the stuff
for time Like?

what is it that kind of drives
you?

Where do you, where do you like
, pull that from?

Like?

where like?

what experience or what?

you know, whether it's any sort
of media, what is sort of life

experience, man, like?

where do you pull that from?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So I think like like style.

I don't like to, and other
people who do have like very

specific knowledge for like
maybe like a type of period of

the printing or stuff like that
and like they name there's,

there are something.

Yeah, it's like like a, like a
category to make it more

digestible for some people.

I don't like that kind of stuff
And I actually do believe that

style is like Dude, it's almost
like your fashion style.

Like your fashion style.

You think about it, like if you
go to a shop, you buy some stuff

because either you don't care
about fashion and you use like

buying whatever just to be
comfortable, or, i don't know,

you follow a certain fashion
designer or you're looking for

specific things, a specific
color pile, you know.

So anything style is to me like
a blend in, almost like a

filtration of all the things
that you find inspiring in life

and all the things that make you
as a person.

Specifically, art, i feel like
in most cases it does and it

always should have a message to
say Like.

I feel like art is in my case.

It's a thing that I do.

It's a language, right, it's a
language that I use to say

things that I cannot say with my
words and I need art to say

those things, right, yeah, so
like in the stuff that I make,

it's the same thing I'm very
inspired by like Japanese, like

woodcut prints, or almost like
60s and 70s, like today,

illustration, classical painting
, all these things that inform

my practice, since I was, you
know, like back in college, i do

in eight hour, like 18 hour
days till now, when I'm like

finding these new artists and
finding these new mediums and

even now with NFTs, like I'm
exposed to so many people.

I'm just a very big observer and
I consume a lot of stuff and

either conscious or
unconsciously, i put that, all

that stuff in my brain and I
resonate with certain things and

I filter everything and I guess
that's what comes out.

So a lot of it is like, yeah,
like Japanese, kind of like

Okiyo-e, which is like this
woodblock print kind of era in

Japanese art that's super
inspiring to me, which is like

the heavy use of lines and flat
colors and gradients and even at

the perspective is like very
inspired by that, and then kind

of mixing that with my training,
like painting from live and all

this.

You know, like master painters
like Sargent or Monet, or all

this stuff is kind of like
condensing into one and that's

the output after years of making
.

You know, like, even working in
games, even working in video

games that inform you know a lot
of like the way that I use

color or the way that I design
characters, you know.

So it's just like a blend of
everything that kind of formed

me as an artist, and then on top
of that, i use the tools for me

to like express something right
.

So I use all those things to
talk about.

What moved me as a person And I
feel like a lot of things that

moved me as a person is, i don't
know, kind of like not in a bad

way, but kind of like, kind of
like a central crisis, of like

how crazy it is that we're like,
literally right now, as we

speak, floating in space, right.

So I always kind of like you
know what I mean It doesn't make

sense, it's insane when you
think about it.

Like, once you stop thinking
about like NFTs, or the market,

or money, or rent, or love or
all these things like, if you

really zoom out as much as you
can, we're a bunch of like

things that are alive, floating
in a rocking space, and that's a

feeling that I always I have
since I was like very young and

I never was able to shake it.

So that's what comes out when I
do my art, cause, like I feel

like that's like the perfect way
that I can talk about it, cause

I'm really not good at like you
know, like expressing myself

with words, sometimes
specifically about these topics,

yeah, yeah.

So, like most things that I do
with art, some things are

experiments, some things are,
you know, kind of like

reflections about things that
happen in my life, but a lot of

it is kind of like based on that
fascination with like life

itself and like why are we alive
, why are we here, how come

we're here, how crazy it is that
you know like again we're

floating in space, how come the,
the university is expanding And

like nobody's thinking about it
.

Speaker 1: Then like where do we
go from here?

Speaker 2: Like all these things
that I always had a stuff in my

mind, in the back of my mind,
always, always, always, and I

felt that informs a lot of like
the subjects and like the ideas

and like the message that my art
, that I'm trying to kind of

like communicate with my art.

Speaker 1: And I think you know
that, and now that I'm just like

referencing a few of the pieces
that I worked, that I looked

over and like now that you say
that that part of the end where

you're talking about like, like
how we're just like floating in

a rock, you know, and how our
bodies just know how to do

random things, you know, and
that is something super

fascinating to me as well Like,
and that to me, in my opinion,

that's kind of really hard to
talk about, you know, like that

it's incredibly hard.

Yeah, that subject is not really
something unless you're like a

PhD and all these other
different subjects and, like you

know, like I have studied, you
studied all these books and it's

like it can have like an
intelligent debate about all of

this shit.

Like there's no way that, like
I could even begin to even know

where to start have that type of
conversation.

Like I feel like there's like
too, there's been too many like

unexplained things in my life
that have happened and it's just

like there's no way you can
even make this up.

You know, and there's no way
you can make that up, and how

the hell do we even know where
we're going?

So it's like I don't know.

I feel like that style of like
what you do is like man, that's

a really great way to
communicate that Cause.

Like I don't really, i don't
really know even know how to

talk about it to be perfectly
frank, you know Same man.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Same dude.

I feel like that's the reason
why I do it, cause like even

dude, even if you have a PhD and
you have all this education on

whatever it is that you need to
go to express these things, i

feel like it's silly dude, like
it's not silly, but it's like I

feel like it's something so hard
to explain, cause like you have

to explain that, for example,
like you have to go through it

to be able to talk about it.

So because nobody can, and like
nobody can, explain a lot of

the things that you know how
life works When people, when

people talk about it, even if
you're super educated, i feel

like if you're super educated,
you might be able to get your

opinions and your ideas on it
more clearly And, like you know,

more eloquent way, like you
know, way that is maybe like

more really able to people, like
the yes for people, but I don't

know.

It's like me talking about
giving birth.

I don't know Like I can't read
about it And I can like talk, i

ask people about it, but like
I'm never gonna be able to talk

about it because I cannot give
birth.

It's like as easy as that, right
?

So I feel like all, all, all
these, all these topics that I

just said is like things that I
don't know.

Like I've been looking up that.

I was able to like talk to a
bunch of people about it And I

noticed that nobody's opinion is
certain and like nobody's

opinion is better than the other
.

So if I talk to, like, my
sister that has no education or

anything, or if I talk to a
professor, again maybe the guy

communicates better.

But both ways of seeing the
world or like both ways to like

feel about that, they're super
valid And no one's right and no

one's wrong, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and in a
culture where humans are so

obsessed with not necessarily
being right but making sure that

other people are wrong, you
know that's a, it's a wonderful,

wonderful flaw of of human
nature.

You know, that's a way to put
it.

Yeah, man, because I think
about that myself, i'm like, i'm

like damn, i was trying to
prove this point, but it's like,

was it more about me being
right Or was it more about them

being wrong in front of me?

You know, and the answer is
typically the latter, right, if

I'm being perfectly honest, man,
it's like I don't really care

about being right.

I just want you to know that
you're wrong, you know.

So it's, it's, you know, one of
my, one of my, a couple of

lovely flaws that I have, but
it's it's, it's.

It's funny you bring that up
because it's like no, like in

the reality.

You know, reality, things like
no, there's, you're right, There

is no right, there is no wrong,
there is, there's just what is

and there is what isn't.

You know, and that's, in my
opinion, that's all there is.

And like, i'll tell you just a
little bit about myself, man,

like I, like I got so, like I
got sober when I was 21,.

You know I am coming up on like
nine years like sober And it's

just like the well dude congrats
.

Thank you, man.

Thank you Like it'll.

this will probably air like
awesome.

Thank you, thank you, man.

Speaker 2: It'll just go, if you
, if you, if you remind me

asking.

Speaker 1: No, no, no, So well
that too, But congrats

Everything, man.

So it's alcohol, I mean heroin
is my main thing, though Opiates

and heroin were, like my, were
my main main poison.

Speaker 2: So um, it's been a
long time.

I'm I'm so happy that you're
saying that right now, because,

like I mean, look at us right
now, like you, you that's

fucking awesome man.

Honestly, i'm super proud of
you.

That's wild.

Speaker 1: Thank you, dude.

Yeah, august 4th 2013 is when
is when I, when I got sober man,

just nuts Like it's really?

Speaker 2: that's awesome And
honestly, like I respect man, so

much respect for that.

Speaker 1: Thank you, dude, and
and, and you know what's really.

What's really crazy, man, is
that, like, what's really crazy

about this is that to get to
that point, though, to where I

was willing to do something, i
had to get to a point of like

pure, like hopelessness to get
to a level where I was willing

to do something different.

You know what I mean?

Um, that was, that was the
point.

And like, that's just not
something that is super, that's

not really something that can be
explained.

In the way in which I got sober
is not something that can be

explained.

It's just like there's a
certain level that you'll hit as

a human being at the bottom,
where, all of a sudden, there's

only one way up, because there's
there's two ways you can.

You know that you're so far low
that there's not really many

options if you keep going, but
you do know that there's one way

up, so it's the only way that
that way up ever feels clear.

Yeah, and, and that's and that's
the hard thing to talk to

people about is that, like
they're like what, what?

what was the catalyst?

What?

what made you?

what made you want to stay
sober?

What made you get sober?

It's like, man, i just got to
the point where I don't want to

fucking die.

You know, and like, and I it
finally like, hit me really

clear that I was out of options.

You know that, like I tried
every idea that I could have

sworn, that I thought I had with
some great grand thing idea, i

burned every relationship I had
to the ground.

But reality is that that's
exactly what I needed, because

no one could tell me that I was
wrong, like wrong.

I had to figure that shit out
on my own, you know, and so Oh

yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, people had to move out of
the way, and let me figure that

out, but what they're like.

So what is it?

What is it that keeps you
motivated?

I'm like, well, by doing a few
simple things, you know, like

the, the, the, what, the program
I work is like very it's, you

know, i won't say it just
because just to protect, like

everyone that's in it, but it's
like that is.

There's so many unexplained
things that happen when I like

move out of the way and like
trust in something that's a

little bit greater than myself,
you know, and like I spend some

free time that I have to like
show other people how to do the

same thing, and then what
happens is that all of a sudden,

like I get this like really
crazy sixth sense, you know, to

life, this crazy awareness that
I could have never even dreamed

of having, and life just like
unfolds at my feet.

Man, i just like move the fuck
out of the way.

Um, you know, and that's the
craziest thing, dude, is it like

go ahead.

That's wild, that's wild.

Speaker 2: Man, i just hear you
talk about that.

It's like you're just fucking
crazy.

I actually somebody like very
close to me told me recently

something like oh, it's like
yeah, something to see like

similar situation, kind of.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: And yeah, it was
something like like good things

have to happen when you're sober
and like you see things

differently.

So I hear you say that it's
like especially right now, Like

at this moment in time, you just
kind of like I don't know, I

got really different.

So, dude, it's huge, like
massive respect, man, And I'm

super happy that I mean, we're
here now talking about this, you

know.

Speaker 1: And now I'm here
talking about art, like, if you

would have told me, like nine
years ago that that like, not

only would you like have a
really great life, but you'd be

doing a podcast talking to
artists you know that, that that

are creating some of the
coolest shit on a new technology

that's still really new I would
have told you were absolutely

out of your mind.

Because I'll tell you, man,
like some people that came in

and some people that came in and
shared their stories And they

were like you know, five, six,
seven, 10, 15 years sober.

It's like when you're like,
when I was like 30 days, 60 days

, 90 days, you know just like
into it, you're just like there

ain't no fucking way.

You know like it just.

It's one of those things where
you're just like there's no way.

That like, because it's like I
can't, i can barely think what

I'm, i can't, i can barely even
like plan out what I'm going to

eat that day, right, or like
what my routine is like in this,

you know, and they're telling
me all this shit that's going to

happen in life, but I can, i
can barely tie my fucking shoes.

You know, dude, that's wild,
it's.

It's been a journey, brother,
like and congrats again.

Thank you.

And in a space.

What's really the ironic part
about, like the space I'm

participating in, is a space
where it is heavily, heavily

influenced by mushrooms and pot.

Speaker 2: This space is so
heavily influenced by

psychedelics and weed and, just
like man, you can't make you

look at me like web to a web
three.

Yeah, yeah, Web three Dude,
honestly I kind of feel you

because I'm not sober but I
don't do drugs.

I try a bunch of stuff just
because I was curious about it.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you must be
happy.

You know what?

Yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2: But you know what I
get all the time because of what

I do, the way that my art looks
.

People in the NFC, i see how,
actually, most times that I try

to like conference or whatever,
i get this.

a bunch of times People go to
me and they're like, oh dude,

nice to meet you.

And I talk to them for like 10
minutes and they're like can I

say something?

And I'm like, yeah, what's up?

And they're like I didn't
expect you from your art.

And I'm like what do you mean?

And they're like I don't know.

And he's like I do it.

And I was like what are you
expecting?

And they're like, oh, i don't
know, i thought you were

something like hippie, like yogi
, like soup.

And I was like, no, like you're
not.

like I mean, i guess I get it,
but like I feel like people like

you can be, you can be whatever
you want.

And like, even though it is
like a space that is like

heavily influenced by that
culture, I don't know.

Like, at least for me, like
very isolated from everything,

like not, you know.

like feel like I have to do it,
or like you're like right right

.

To be part of it, like in any
way, shape or form.

So yeah, i don't do, I don't do
anything, i drink like a

champion, but that's it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, man, But
it's that's the only.

Speaker 2: Thing man.

Speaker 1: But what's really
interesting about this, though

it's funny, it's just the irony
of someone like me being so

obsessed with a space that has
is so ingrained in that culture.

It's just I haven't quite
figured out the words to

describe it yet Like what?

like the irony of it all, but
I'm sure I'll figure it out, but

it's not going to be today.

But what's really interesting,
though, is that like because and

I reflect back to when I was
doing a lot of psychedelics, and

when I was doing, you know like
, i was personally one of the

guys that dropped a lot of acid,
you know, before, before I

found all this, and you know
like, that was like the, the

level of intensity of, like, the
just of the feelings that come

from that.

Like you can, like feel sound,
you can feel, energy waves, you

can.

Like, you can smell colors, you
can taste sounds, you can.

There's all these.

Like you know, there's some.

There is something to it.

Like I'm not going to sit here
and say that, like there,

there's not nothing, there's,
there's not nothing here, but

it's what's what's really
interesting though is that some

of the traders some of the best
traders that I know are some of

the some of the biggest
collectors Like it's.

It's actually really interesting
that you know there might

actually be something to it
where, like, the vibe that you

get may be stronger than someone
who's not on that.

Therefore, you know it could be
a valuable piece, you know it

could, it could, there could be
something there that a lot of

other people don't see because
of not on that wavelength.

You know that may be completely
.

Oh absolutely, but that's that's
, that's my belief, you know.

What's really interesting,
though, is I was talking about

that sixth sense of just.

With the way I live my life and
the way that what I continue to

do to stay sober is that, like
you, it's my belief that you can

actually achieve that same
level of, you know, vibe or

vibration, or it's just maybe
not as intense and maybe not as

colorful and maybe not as
euphoric, you know, is when

you're, when you're doing these
things, but that same basic

principle of pausing, watching,
like essentially not allowing

your thinking mind in the
equation, it's just like what do

I feel and what am I observing
by looking at this?

Like that can be achieved
without putting, without putting

anything in your body.

Um, just, it's just a lot of
fucking work to get there.

Speaker 2: You know I fucking
love you so much, man Dude,

because I don't know.

I don't know if you, i don't
know if you have heard previous

interviews of mine, but that's
and it sounds pretentious as

fuck, i know it, but like that's
the goal with what I do.

So I even just said this
recently, literally what you

just said.

We did a Christie's for an
FCMIC.

There was a Christie's show
happening the first day of an

FCMIC for maps.

Me and a bunch of friends were
doing art work for the show And

I was talking to maps about why
am I in the show?

and like what's my relationship
with psychedelics?

because maps is a psychedelic
research entity, right?

So this is what I said And this
is what I've been aiming for

ever.

Like I have a bunch of friends
who do psychedelics for this

specific reason to like rewire
the brain or like change

something in the way that they
see things and like either

change the lens or clean the
lens or like just kind of like

change the way that you know,
like something to get the one to

change about their lives.

And I feel like that's not my
personal experience, like I've

never had that experience with
psychedelics, but I it's very

inspiring to me how something
can cause that reaction in a

human body and a human mind.

So I always had the goal of
like I want to make art that

feels like psychedelics, not in
the way that psychedelic art

looks, but in the way that I
hope my goal and I'm aiming

super high, i know this, but my
goal is to trigger something in

your mind with my art that
hopefully evokes something in

you, or like it sparks something
in you that makes you think

about your life.

you know that may you haven't
until now.

So you know like, maybe like
when you, when you do drugs, you

know like psychedelic drugs.

Maybe you think about something
that you said a while ago and

then you're like analyzing why
did you say it that way?

Like, why do you behave a
certain way?

That's kind of like the goal
with what I do And that's kind

of like the measures that I'm
trying to communicate, because

that's what I'm doing with my
work too.

I'm analyzing stuff that I've
done or stuff that happened in

my life And hopefully I can show
that with almost a visual

representation of that And then
hopefully somebody out there can

see it and be like I feel the
same way or I feel similar.

What about that And it's about
having a conversation.

Again, like I always say, this
art is a language, right?

Yeah, art is supposed to be a
language, like music.

And if you're not saying
anything with art, it's like the

difference between, like, going
into an elevator and being like

, hey, how is raining out there,
right?

It's like, oh, yeah, and then
you go away with that

conversation and like nobody
said anything, it just works

right, and then you can have
something like what we have in

right now.

That is like a very good
conversation, it feels good, and

then you walk away from like a
relationship and feeling

energized or inspired or it
caused something in your brain,

right?

So that's kind of what I'm
aiming to do with my work.

Speaker 1: And I love that And I
want to.

I hope you don't mind if I give
you some feedback in one of the

statements.

man, like, i don't think it's
pretentious at all to like, want

to try to, in saying the best
way possible, like but try to

like, penetrate, like the
spiritual side in humans, like,

i don't think that's like, i
don't believe it.

I think that is actually one of
the coolest goals that I've

ever heard.

is that, like you know, you're
trying to like you know, I still

believe, you know, with all the
psychedelics that we do and

some of the things that are
inspired by that.

You know, i genuinely do believe
in the third eye, where it's

like we have the spiritual side
of the third eye that has this

just great awareness of
everything And in my opinion

it's what makes us the most
human, it's the closest thing to

a human connection that all of
us have.

Is that you can't explain, you
can't really explain love, but

you know love when you feel love
.

You can't like explain some of
these things.

There's this connection with
people that you can't really

explain without a visual
representation and a feeling.

That's really all we have to go
off of.

So to like have that be your
inspirational power, like make

that like you're driving force,
like penetrate the, the, the,

the soul of somebody, like
that's pretty fucking cool.

And now that you say that
there's some of the work that

I'm actually like when I'm
looking over here, i'm looking

at some of your work on super
rare, like, like the vote, like

the, specifically, what came
from that is voyage through time

, meridian and roots, like
that's.

Those three pieces are like
what came to mind after that

conversation.

It kind of encapsulates
everything we just talked about.

Speaker 2: That's awesome.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude.

And now in hearing the story.

Speaker 2: That's the best
compliment ever Dude.

Speaker 1: And hearing the story
though, like you know, there's

a part of the reason I didn't
know this until I just did this

until they things like this
happen in real time, we're like,

holy fuck, i wasn't expecting
that, but you know, there, those

three pieces, even before we
had this conversation, resonated

with me, but hearing the story
of what you were trying to do

Now, it makes so much more sense
why I feel what I feel.

You know what I mean And that I
guess because that's a good

representation of, like, the way
I live my life and what I

believe in and, like you know,
so, mission successful.

Just what I'm trying to tell
you is that it's not a lofty

goal, no man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the best
compliment ever, yeah.

No, so you did because thank
you, man.

Speaker 1: You're very welcome.

I mean that.

I mean that with everything
because, like, when I was

looking through, that was those
were the three things that I was

drawn to, you know, out of all
your work.

So, and to answer your question
, i did not look at any of your

interviews.

I tried to.

You know it's a balancing act.

You know, because I'll tell you
my brand is what I try to do

here is that, like I want it to
sound like we met each other for

the first time, or we met each
other after hanging out like one

or two times, right?

So there's in.

I wish I could say I was
perfect at this.

I don't do it all the time, but
there's a lot of times where I

try to purposely not look as
much as I can, just based off of

what I currently know and what
motivate me to bring someone on.

I want to explore that
naturally, right?

Like I want to explore that
naturally conversation.

That's what I want to do.

And so you know, when it comes
to interviews, like you know, I

struggle because it's a
balancing act, like because

there could be something that
really resonates with me that I

want to expand on in a
conversation or anything of that

nature.

But sometimes I just
intentionally choose not to like

.

It's actually intentional that,
you know, I don't go do a deep

dive, because every time I do a
deep dive I just it to me loses

all of the magic, right It
you're like because you already

didn't know who this person is
and we don't get to have a

moment like that.

You know, if I may, who knows
we may have?

I'm not, I'm not gonna say you
say we wouldn't have, But like

to have that specific moment
that we just had, if I would

have watched it.

So who knows?

you know, it's a question we'll
never know now, but that's like

true, that's true.

Yeah, that's, that's why I do
what I do, and I didn't realize

I enjoyed doing that until I
literally did it, you know, and

I thought I was wrong for doing
that, though, because you know

every, every like right, like
every, you know what's really

wild man is that, like you know,
podcasting is a very saturated

industry.

Now, it's, it's, it's very
interesting, but all of the

software, all of like the tips
and all of the articles and all

of this, it's all designed to
like, make things sound perfect.

It's designed to like, like,
have this like super, like, yeah

, make things sound perfect, as
best way I can describe it.

But humans are naturally
imperfect, like we're naturally

imperfect, it's what makes a?

human, And so it's like why am I
like outside of audio quality

and outside of you know, some
like cool things to make the

voices come through better, and
you know, to outside of that,

it's like man.

why would I want to, like, take
out some of the humanness of a

conversation?

Why would I want to take out
some of the filler words of a

conversation?

Why would I want to?

That's what makes us who we are
, you know, and that's I don't

know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's the
same with.

It's the same with art and
music.

You, just when you said that
you remind me of like I'm a

bunch of like, like producers
friends and like musician

friends, and even with our two,
like I do it myself and like I

see it every day, we, as we get
more tools to make things easier

and faster and more again like
perfect, i see everybody,

including myself, trying to go
back to just making things more

human.

So you see it, a bunch of like
music, like music producers were

like it's so it should have
everything on time, and then you

see them kind of like maybe
facing the snare a little bit

behind you.

So it feels more human, so it
feels more relatable, right,

like, when you see something so
perfect, it's harder to relate,

it's harder to feel connected to
it.

Speaker 1: I feel like it is, it
is And I'll tell you

interesting, like yeah, and
there's some mistakes that like

I'll keep in.

I even had that episode I'm
releasing tomorrow with Natasha

or post-wok.

You know there was, there was
moments where you know now if

they, if you say something of
course of like under like NDA or

something you wasn't weren't
supposed to say sure, we'll edit

.

You know, we'll edit that out.

You know, like that that's,
that's fine.

But she was like you know,
there's some times where I like

I think she had a way, i don't
know like what she remembered of

our conversation, but there was
a lot of parts where she like

thought she wanted to edit it
out.

But then she ran it back and
listened to it And she's like,

really there was only one part
that I found and it was only

because it was like under an NDA
.

I wasn't supposed to say that.

You know, even though the deal
didn't happen, i technically

wasn't supposed to say I'm like
okay, that's normal Yeah.

Right, that's normal, we'll edit
that out.

But it was cool to like hear
her say, like I had something,

like I thought, all of these
things, you know, like that I

wanted to edit out all of these
things, but none of that she

wanted to take out, and that's
like the point that I'm trying

to drive home is that, you know,
like, like that's the whole

point I'm trying to do here.

Is that, like we have, like we
have this beautiful creation, we

have this beautiful like thing,
but, like, who is the person

behind that?

Right, like, who is the person
that makes that what it, what

makes them tick, what makes them
imperfect, what make what

experiences drive like that just
beautiful thing that we get to

look at?

you know, And it was just funny
to hear that you know, the

thought was like oh my God, i
need to edit out everything to

like no, no, no, keep it all.

Just take out this NDA part.

I'm like sick.

Speaker 2: Mission accomplished.

It was perfect.

That's it Yeah.

Speaker 1: And so.

But as a podcast, i'm like shit
, like you know, like oh my God,

like what did?

what did you say would have?

Have there been other things
that people have said that I

need to edit out, and all this
other shit?

I'm like oh no.

Speaker 2: But it's not Yeah.

Speaker 1: But it's, i say all
that, you know.

I say all that to say that it's
really different.

It's really, it's really
challenging doing something

different.

That's like against what the
90% of the crowd is doing, right

, like what 90% of humans like
think, or like what people want

to do, or like how they edit
this out.

So it's I say all that just to
share some, some like of the

internal struggle, even as a
podcaster.

It's like, damn, like I'm doing
something different.

What is this wrong, you know?

like, but it's my own style.

At the same time, anyway, i
went on a huge like monologue

there, yeah, No, you're good,
Yeah, dude.

Speaker 2: No, it's interesting
to see Like that's the whole

point, you know, it's like
seeing how people operate and

I've seen how people kind of
think about what they're doing

And like it's important, man,
and again, it's important to

show that like the human side of
things, and like it's important

that you feel connected to
people, and I feel like showing

that and being like so honest
about anything, really it just

makes it easier for you to
connect to people, and if you

don't connect to people, it's
easier for you to like identify

the people that you don't
connect with, and that's it.

Speaker 1: That's right.

That's right.

Man, speaking of speaking of
people, that you connect with

man, you mentioned, like I know,
you went fuck render to the

drop.

I know you said you're
connected with mad dog, like, so

, like man, tell me, tell me
like how, like let's drill into

it, like let's talk about fuck
render man and Fred.

Like how did, how did that
relationship like form with Fred

?

How did you all become like
that guy.

Speaker 2: Let's not talk about
that guy.

He's the worst.

Yeah, he's literally.

He's literally like my brother.

No, i'm talking about him, he's
my brother, like I again, like

I know that guy.

He's literally like he's like a
brother, like actual family to

me and him and him and beige is
his girlfriend Amazing artist

too.

Yeah, i think we made because,
again, it's like we were both

like like fans of art, right,
like we just like in love with

art and like discovering new
people.

And I think at the time he was
living in Montreal, i was living

in Toronto and He used to talk
all the time and like, oh, i

love your art, he was a fan of
mine, and we kind of like asked

each other questions and we
tried to support each other,

kind of getting more visibility
and all this stuff, right.

And there was one time that he
came to Toronto for a gig and I

was like, oh, listen, go out.

And then it's weird because
like it's one of the people that

since the day that I met him,
like I felt I felt I was hanging

out with him since childhood,
like I met him and I was like,

oh, what's up, dude?

There was no like, hey, nice to
meet you.

I'm trying to be as composed as
I can.

It was just like straight up,
just hanging out right away And

yeah, literally like it sounds
so silly, but like since that

day we've been like super close.

And then we were like lucky
enough that we both find success

kind of at the same time on
Instagram back then And we used

to get a bunch of like gigs
together, like go like working

for festivals or musicians.

So we used to travel almost like
separately, but we were like we

used to like see each other in
all these places.

So, yeah, he's an incredible
dude.

He's like the hardest worker
that I know till this day.

Like, if you think that I'm
insane for doing eight hour, 18

hour days, you know this stuff.

He has done it and he's still
doing it.

He's the hardest worker guy
that I know.

He's an actual machine of a
person.

Speaker 1: I mean man, like I've
looked at what he does and it's

cool.

It's really cool about some of
like.

What I've seen about his is
like the physical, like him

taking the super, like the super
, like I don't even know what

the word describe is, but him
essentially taking his art and

making it physical, Like it
doesn't see, it, doesn't feel

like this art should be physical
, but he finds a way to do that

And it.

It's just, I think the first
one.

Speaker 2: I saw was like yeah,
yeah, man.

Speaker 1: Like at Art Basel.

I think that was the first one
where he did that.

I wasn't there, but I think I
read the articles and read the

stories It was.

It was either that Art Basel or
NFT LA.

There was some event that he
did where it was like this

massive, like physical
representation of what he did.

I mean, i'm just like that's so
fucking cool.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's funny because, like I
remember, in EVE EVE I always

talk to him.

he will tell you this himself.

I'm, i mean again, i did
traditional media for many, many

years and I only got into the
digital because of the big game

industry.

So now I mix both, but I'm a
huge fan of, like you know, like

sculptures and canvas and
drawings and just physical stuff

that you can see the texture
and you can hold it right Like I

love it right.

And for a for months I was like
I don't know like talking to him

about it and he was like, nah,
man, just digital, i don't have

space in my house to like put
physical stuff, all this stuff.

Like he was really like adamant
about not wanting to be like

involved with any physical stuff
.

And then I guess everybody
reaches a point where I mean it

has happened to me with a bunch
of stuff too.

but like I guess he reached a
point where he's like, oh, just

as an artist, he he got so
curious about exploring like

physical mediums and I guess he
had a chance to do it.

And then, yeah, i mean, if you
saw this culture that he did for

the Gateway in Miami, how crazy
is that And like even now in

NFTM I see I don't know if you
went to his event for Lucidia, i

think it's insane, like
absolutely insane.

Oh, dude, that was the most fun
that I had in NFTM by far Like

that was absolutely insane.

So, yeah, it's just again.

It's like we as artists I'm
going to tell you everything

with this That's the reason why
we're all making NFTs is, when

he first came out, there was no
hype, There was no.

Ethereum was maybe like 500
bucks, maybe 600 bucks max, And

it was only a few of us doing it
And we only did it because we

were so curious about as artists
, like, as curious people.

We were so curious about a new
medium that people were using.

We were like wait what?

And then, yeah, like fast
forward and all this stuff is

happening.

We were just curious people as
artists And like, yeah, like

again.

Like just seeing him transition
from like that kind of stuff to

making like a few physical
pieces, Absolutely mind blowing.

Same with Misha, same with
Madog.

Like he's close to me where he
like draws stuff, But like he's

also I mean I guess we're all
like very like digital people.

But yeah, like I still like all
of us like for the criticism

that we have going on as we
speak right now, he has like a

physical print of one of his
things.

Fred has like a one of the
chain links to Yeah, I like her,

for you know, like auction
houses for like solid bits.

For example, I did huge canvas
actually the canvas is the thing

that was auction and then the
canvas came with a companion NFT

.

So I think it's super
interesting for me actually just

to see artists kind of like
transcending the main medium

that they have and kind of like
exploring and pushing it more.

It's just interesting to see
how that translates into

different things, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, yeah, that
was something I thought about

when you were talking.

There is that there comes a
point where you just got to try.

You got to try something
different.

You got to.

There's a curiosity, that
that's like knocking at the door

and like you got to try
something new.

And you know, i look at that.

It's the same concept, but just
in a different.

It's just in a different
industry, like in the music

industry.

You know, i'm a big Eminem fan,
i'm a big Nas fan, you know.

But like there was a while there
was a couple of their albums,

like I and as a creative I
understand why they did it but

there was a direction they took
with their music that I'm just

like damn man, like I can't
really vibe with this the way I

used to, you know.

But they also had to.

But now you look at some of
their most recent albums, like

it feels like home again, man,
like it feels like they're back.

It feels like they're back to
their like it's like they took

their roots and they but they
added like three to four things

in that journey that they went
on to amplify what got them to

that original point if that
makes sense or to that original

spot you know and like it makes
complete sense.

You need that Yeah you do, and
it's like you know, like I hate

it when people it sucks Cause
like for a while, like I know,

eminem especially got a lot of
flack for like a lot of some of

the albums that he put out.

They weren't his best work, but
at the same time, though, like

you know, i his music was
incredibly impactful in my life

as a kid, you know, and to be
able to watch him do that and

then come completely around And
cause the reality is that, like

we're specifically talking about
him is like his music is like

literally built off trauma and
pain and like really terrible

experiences, you know like, but
he finds a way to convey that

message where it resonates with
people and it just, it just hits

and he's really, he's really
talented in what he does.

Same thing when Nas, but it's
you know, obviously life gets

better, you know, the more you
get.

Like, if you continue to do
this, like life continues to get

better and like you may not be
able to rap about pain all the

time or to express pain all the
time, you know cause, like maybe

things are just really great,
you know, but to almost like,

see that, like come around, it's
like it's.

It's not completely the way
they used to be, it's like what

they used to be, but better, you
know, and I just man the people

that hate on that process is
just like dude.

If you really like him, you'd
support him regardless.

Like you know, you like
understand that this is a, this

is a journey.

Speaker 2: I tell you, I tell
you this the people who hate on

that is, people who don't have
the personal experience of

creating anything and having a
life about creating stuff, but

they cannot relate to it.

They're just expecting a
product that is like reliable, I

guess.

So if you like one artist,
they're just thinking about what

they like about the artist and
they expect that every single

time, which is why a lot of the
music industry works the way it

does, Cause like they just like
popping out it's like pop

artists, that is always the same
thing, and he's like reliable,

they're never going to
disappoint you, straight to the

point, top 40 types of stuff and
it works and he makes money

right.

But then I feel like if you you,
you have to have a lot of balls

in a bad way to judge an
artist's journey and then artist

process, cause that shows that
you don't know how hard it is,

cause it's the hardest thing
that you can do.

If you do dude, i deal with
this today, like if you do a job

that is like you know, like any
job.

You're a driver, you have to
drive from point A to point B

and that's it.

If you're a doctor, you know
what many things you have to

give to the patient.

Like there's like a very
specific set that you have to

follow and it's like step one,
step two, step three, and you

have to accomplish those goals.

I feel like with art, with arts,
there's no real measure for

that And I feel like I don't
know when art becomes a

commodity.

It's kind of like weird and
it's like prices are touched to

art.

It's kind of like weird in a
way, but it's a process and it's

a process that I'm not a
machine, and I'm going through

all these changes in my life and
I'm getting older and I'm

falling in love, being
heartbreak, i'm sick, i'm

healthy, i'm lonely, i'm
traveling, i'm busy, i'm not

busy.

So all these things affects the
things that you do in life and

affects your output, for not
only art.

Like your output is, like if
you're sad and you go out,

you're probably going to be like
more low key and more your

energy is going to be lower,
right.

So I think judging an artist's
journey is the most naïve thing

that anybody can do, because you
don't know what that person is

going through and you don't know
what's in the brain, you don't

know what's in their body, you
don't know anything about them

And you're just expecting
something that is not

sustainable.

It's like art is something that
is ever changing, always.

Speaker 1: Always man, but
there's also for people that

aren't in that spot.

I've had this conversation with
a few guests, but I think it

really relates to what you're
talking about here.

is that, for some reason,
people that have a traditional

job, or maybe that's all they
want to do and that's fine?

Like there's literally nothing
wrong with that, but at the same

time when you look at the
workforce, we're always

demanding better pay, better
work-life balance, better

benefits, better this like to be
treated with respect, to be

treated like we have a voice to
be like if we have something

going on in our life, like have
some empathy.

But it's really weird when you
look at the artist.

has just because they're doing
something, like an artist is

doing something different,
doesn't mean that they're

excused from those moments in
life.

That happens regardless of
whether you're at a company or

whether you're on your own doing
something.

But yet the attitude is
completely different in that

sense where it's like people
that don't have that, that

aren't on that path, they view
only as a product and not as a

human, and it's like damn man,
people still go through shit,

regardless of what they're doing
, and for some reason, in the

arts going back to our original
conversation about art being

undervalued it's that same thing
where it's like we're

surrounded by all this beautiful
photography, we're surrounded

by all this great design, we're
surrounded by all this great art

and we almost become
desensitized to what actually

went into doing that.

Therefore, when the artist goes
through that, the same

compassion or the same empathy
or the same thoughtfulness isn't

applied.

For some reason, it's just not
there.

It's a fascinating conversation
, or a really interesting

conversation I have, because
it's like why is that?

We're all human doing these
things?

we're just doing different
professions.

But I think a lot of it boils
down to art not being valued as

something legitimate or, for
some reason, not something

legitimate, so that I don't know
just when you talked about that

.

I'm a fan of repeating stories
because sometimes people need to

hear it like 10,000 times
before it actually resonates and

before the light bulb moment
actually clicks.

So but yeah, it's interesting
to have that conversation of

like the same benefits and the
same luxuries and the same

things are not afforded to the
people who are literally taking

the most risk doing what they're
doing Job safety versus it's

like you are the business, you
are the creative, you are the

marketer, you are this.

You're wearing all the
different hats.

This person has to deal with
one thing that they do.

You deal with everything.

Maybe there's nothing more to
talk about there, but it's just

a fascinating topic to bring to
the table and to like repeat a

million times.

It's like maybe people should
ask why they think that way, or

why is it that way or why why is
it that people traditionally

think like that?

I don't know, talking out loud
here.

Speaker 2: It's wild man and
like I get it like.

I feel like one of the reasons
why I cannot tell you why people

think like that.

But I can tell you why, despite
that, people continue to pursue

the arts and because everybody
that I know that makes art

including myself.

I can see for myself too.

We just love it.

Dude, again, i decided to be an
artist lifelong because double

suicide for me.

I just want that's what I want
to do with my life.

I want my life to be about that
, right.

So I feel like a lot of people
who are doing arts right now, no

matter what they're doing.

That's the main reason and
that's kind of like the force

driving everything.

And then also because And I'm
very proud to say this If it

works out like it did for me and
it did for a lot of my friends

I get to do what I love the most
every day of my life, and

especially right now, like if I
don't wanna work, so I'm not

inspired by whatever, i just
don't work.

If I feel like working, i work.

If I feel inspired, i produce
some stuff right.

So I don't feel I don't know.

It's a great life once you make
it to work and once you find a

way to make it sustainable, it's
a great life because it's what

you've been trying to do the
whole time, right?

So, yeah, i feel like it's
something that if there's

somebody out there listening to
this and they're wondering about

maybe taking up making
decisions or something like that

, i don't know.

I feel like if you really love
something, no matter what it is,

it doesn't have to be art, it
could be podcasting, it could be

anything right, if you really
love something, i feel like the

worst thing that you can do is
not pursuing it because you're

thinking about it with a cold
mind and just being like oh,

it's not practical, or I should
probably get some money

somewhere in time, like somehow
else or whatever, because you

never know how it's gonna work
out.

I currently or even when I moved
to Toronto like 10 years ago,

i've made more money in my life
than I ever thought I was going

to make, and I didn't.

I wasn't like in my head being
like I'm gonna be the richest

artist in the planet and all
this stuff.

I literally did whatever I
loved the most, and because I

love it the most, i went super
hard at it and I guess it paid

off.

So I think, as long as you put
time into things, it is easy

when you love something, because
when you put time into that

thing it's not like a struggle
for you to put time into that

thing.

So I think just things happen
naturally.

So you're having a good time in
life anyways doing something

that you love and then, more
likely than not, if you spend

enough time doing that, you're
gonna see some amazing results.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean nail on
the head.

Yeah, you know it's.

While this podcast isn't fully
sustainable, i can tell you I

couldn't have predicted that I
would be doing what I was doing

even when I started this journey
, because, i'll tell you, this

started with me and I was
thinking about this as you were

saying that.

You know, i had this wild.

The way I even got here was
having this insane thought.

I was like you know what is the
thing that people are gonna

think I'm the most crazy for
trying to pursue?

Like very similar to you, like
with your thought of like trying

to penetrate the human
consciousness of like you know,

like it's like, that's like
where you wanna, that's where

you wanna go, just being
pretentious as fuck too, Yeah

you know, i'll tell you mine
Like and I still, to this day,

like even though I'm not really
as tied to gaming as I used to

be, as I was a couple of years
ago like I still wanna run and

operate and create my own
esports team, right, like,

that's like my goal.

No, i'll say, let's go, and
that's what got me into it.

but I'll tell you the funny
thing, victor, when I had that

thought, i was like, okay,
everyone's gonna think I'm like

either crazy, stupid, all the
above.

like, just, you know, like all
these, there's gonna be all

these opinions.

But what I was thinking to
myself, i'm like, okay, you've

never been to an esports event.

You know nothing about business
.

You have no like, you have no
business acumen.

You don't even know what a
business is Like, you don't know

what goes into it.

You have literally no
experience doing any of this.

And I said, well, that sounds
like a plan, you know.

so, like, what I did was I
bought a computer and I started

creating.

I created a Twitch account and
I flew to Louisiana for my very

first esports event to go to.

Oh, wow.

And so that was what I started
with.

And I, crazy enough, like, i ran
into people that I idolized, i

ran into people that I built
relationships with.

Like all of a sudden, i figured
out that I was like kind of

good at this, built a Twitch
channel, figured out I didn't

like live audiences.

So I was like you know what,
let me try my bid at podcasting,

you know.

and so what I did was I
recorded 16 episodes.

but I didn't intend on
recording 16 episodes by myself.

I recorded 10.

I said, you know what, if I'm
really gonna do this, if I'm

gonna make the investment into
podcasting, if there's something

I really wanna do, i'm gonna
record 10 episodes, one a day

where there's no agenda, there's
no script, there's no topic,

there's no, nothing Like just to
say that I could do it, just to

like have some consistency and
show up for what it is that I'm

trying to do.

I ended up recording 16.

You know, it was like turns out
I really enjoyed this.

The 17th episode was when my
first guest actually reached out

to me, essentially to come on a
show, and he was a previous

esports organization owner.

that was pretty wildly
successful at that age And I'm

like, well shit.

Speaker 2: Oh, dude, let's go.

Speaker 1: I'm like cool man,
like because I was to the point

where I enjoyed doing this, but
I don't enjoy doing it by my I

didn't wanna do it by myself any
longer.

That was like that point where
I was like this is fun, but

there's gotta be more to this.

And so, long story short, i
interviewed people in esports

for close to a year because my
passion beyond that was that

like a lot of and it's not any
of my parents' fault it's just

like the way things were brought
Like it's just life experiences

that they've had.

And the way the internet was
Like a lot of people viewed

video games as like a waste of
time and things that you only do

in your basement and there's
nothing to be had from it And

it's all a bunch of kind of like
the meme of crypto was just a

bunch of people in their mom's
basements.

You know what I mean Like it
was like that for video games.

So my goal was to paint a
picture of what esports actually

was Like.

I was interviewing producers, i
was interviewing esports

athletes, i was interviewing
content creators, i was

interviewing coaches Literally
everything that goes into making

this a real life thing And so
that was my motivation for doing

that.

I see the Beeple sale come
right in here.

I'm like you know well, all I
can think about is like 69, 420

and cartoon monkeys and all this
thing and this new weird token

technology and all of this stuff
, and I'm like, well, here goes

nothing, and now I'm here.

But you know, but there's no way
, when I started this, that I

could have predicted winding up
in this spot.

You know, like no fucking way.

Speaker 2: Which is amazing dude
.

Yeah, which is amazing dude,
cause I feel like also like

double respect dude, like you
were saying that you're being

like aiming high, basically dude
, you, especially you, man you

already accomplished something
that is so hard to do, which I

never been through anything like
that, so I can only fucking

imagine.

But I've seen that and I've
heard experiences You going like

basically being sober, that's
aiming high, dude, and you did

it super successfully, right.

And then all these things that
you've been, that you have been

doing, like that only goes to
show you that the crazy thing

can happen in a good way.

And then everything that you're
saying is like that's the

fucking journey, man.

Like I have a lot of respect for
people, that I met a lot of

people in my life with different
stories.

Right, everybody has a way
different story.

But I have a lot of respect for
nothing that the other thing is

bad, cause I probably would
have used it, but I have a lot

of respect for people.

Like if I can relate to that,
that's my story, right, I didn't

know anybody.

So everybody that I know in
life and every contact that I

ever made and every opportunity
that I've got, i have to go get

it.

Like I started with nothing.

I didn't have English as a main
language from the get go.

So everything that I ever did in
my life and everybody that I

know is like something that I
earn right, like a bunch of my

friends that I have right now.

When I think about it, i'm like
wow, like it's awesome that all

my friends are doing well,
cause, like I didn't plan it

that way, i would just just my
friends, or like even like the

friends that I meet now because
of NFTs, like I was looking to

do, keith.

I told Keith when we first met
like we went for we went for

breakfast And I was like good,
it's crazy.

Like you're the president of
time And I can call.

I'm super proud to be calling
my friend and like nobody

introduced us, it just happened
because of what we both do And

I'm incredibly proud of that.

Like everything that basically
like everything that we have in

life, is because we earn it And
because we took these decisions

of like let me try this, let me
try that, let me try this sort

of thing, following a specific
passion, i guess in this point.

But that's how it happens.

That's how it happens.

Speaker 1: It is, and I'll tell
you, probably the highest goal

that he wants.

What's really what actually
gave me the courage to like take

that shot like we're talking
about.

Like we have this like thing
where we just aim super high and

at least you know and it's
granted, my story is not

required to do this.

So, but this is just what my
story is is that, like, i've

experienced how bad life can get
.

So if life can actually get
that bad, that also means,

logically, that life can get
that good, like the same, that

life can be as good as I want it
to be.

If life can get as bad as I made
it out, like as bad as it was,

you know.

So that's part of the logic of
thing of like, well, damn, if it

gets that bad, then you know
there's always this, this, this

scale of good, and you know good
and bad, or good and evil or

whatever.

Whatever the case may be dark
and light, you know, but so if

it can get, if it can get that
dark man, that means it can get

like really, really, really,
really bright, you know.

So that's part of it man.

That's part of it.

Oh, dude.

Speaker 2: And that's a beauty
for you.

Like I feel, like a lot of
people that I came relate to.

I mean, i hope you can get
straight because like one of the

things that I related with Fred
a lot when first met is that we

both were dealing with
incredible anxiety, to the point

that you know, like anxiety and
depression goes on in hands

sometimes and like if you ask
him, he's very open about this.

We both were like like, not
like in a serious way, but like

we both were in like states in
our minds.

At that point we were like did
you just want to like ever, like

not leave anymore?

And then we're both like yeah,
and having like seeing that kind

of stuff, like again, like
history is different than mine,

but like we both kind of felt at
some point in time that way

because of different
circumstances.

Mine was because, to make it
like short, when I moved to

Toronto I kind of triggered a
bunch of stuff because again,

like I moved with like no family
, no friends, no language, to a

new job that I wasn't trial,
because it's like six months of

trials, so if it didn't work out
they would send me back to

Columbia.

So like all these things at the
same time that I was like

dealing with and you just kind
of was too hard on my mind and

body And at some point I just
developed like crazy, like

anxiety just for a few years.

And that's when I met Fred and
we were both kind of like

dealing with the same shit.

We were both like I think maybe
that's why we connected so fast

because, like we both like
talking about it like very early

on and it was a thing of like,
oh, like, have you ever thought

about this Or have you ever felt
like a panic attack?

And we were both like, yeah,
like every day I'm like yeah, me

too And like all these things
are like really like deep, you

know, and yeah, like things can
get better.

Like I literally, like last
year or 2020, i can tell you me

and him, because we've been in
this whole journey together We

had moments where we were like
at a display or whatever, like

at the studio that we had
literally crying Cause we were

so happy that life was going
this way that we're just crying

because we couldn't believe it,
and like we felt validated over

all these years and kind of
waiting for something to happen

And it was kind of gradually
happened.

But yeah, like we definitely
had moments with him, or I had

moments by myself too, where I
was like literally like in my

couch or whatever, just crying
because of happiness Cause I was

like what the fuck?

Like I used to be in a really
bad place in my mind and in my

body and like this is beyond my
wildest dreams And I'm just very

grateful to like life, you know
.

Speaker 1: Just to like, yeah,
just to set up I think, yeah, i

mean, there's so many ways I can
.

Obviously I can relate to that,
but it's cool that y'all went

through the same thing at the
same time, even though it wasn't

the same circumstances.

Really, to go real deep again,
man, what connects alcoholic,

what makes people alcoholics and
drug addicts, and this and that

it's not the actual, the
substance actually has nothing

to do with it.

It's how we thought, how we
felt and how we consumed.

Right, and it's like, if you
can relate to those, those are

really the only three things And
like that's what separates like

a heavy drinker from like an
alcoholic or a heavy drug user

from a true drug addict.

It's that it's there's these
things that you like you and

Fred connected with on a very
deep level that, like someone,

that like cause, that was part
of the trouble of me getting

well is like man, no one's
fucking been through the exact

things that I've been through or
felt the way I've actually felt

.

You know, because for a while,
man like I'm worse off when I

don't have you know, think a
substance in my body than when I

do have it in my body, and
that's a paradox that, like a

lot of people don't really
understand And it's granted they

would have.

They have no reason to
understand.

It's not, this is not a knock
on them.

It's just like I can't
understand how normal people can

just drink one drink and like
leave it on the table.

That doesn't compute in my mind
.

Like that doesn't make any
fucking sense.

So so, yeah, it's, it's.

It's really cool.

I say that because it's like
it's.

It's not about the external
circumstances, although that

helps.

It's kind of like what the
cherry on top, or like it's part

of the equation.

But that connection that you
get to make with people off of

those moments, it's something
that's really deep man Like.

It's like those are the, where
the real connections is cause

the.

Somehow we all find ways to feel
that through different life

experiences, and I think you
know, going back to our

conversation about like us being
on a, on a rock floating in

space And you know like just
kind of meandering around on

this earth figuring out what the
fuck we're supposed to do, you

know it's really interesting how
the universe, at the same time

that we're just floating around,
finds a way to connect to

people that really need that And
that can go do just the most

amazing shit together and create
this immense level of value for

people in the world And, at the
same time, give people like you

and Fred like this out or like
this way to express yourself

that not many people can do.

You know, so I just man, it's
so fucking cool, dude, like it's

, it's it's so cool, i'm, i'm,
that's the most.

Speaker 2: I'm so grateful
because of that, like that's the

truth, the thing about, like
that I'm most grateful for, like

I don't know, like people
around me, like I don't know

kind of the decisions that I
took to unfold this whole thing

that is happening with my life.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I'm just so grateful
because, like I never, i'm

horrible at planning.

So I have like a few things in
mind.

I have like a few like like
North stars that I kind of

follow, and one of them is, like
I don't know, like keep good

people around me, like that's
why, with all these guys like

Fred and Misha and, you know,
like like Ryan, thank you guys

All these stories that I'm
really close with, like I'm very

grateful for them And it's like
beyond, like what we do as an

artist, like we are homies, so
like if they need like family,

basically you know, so if they
need anything that is like not R

related, like I'm always going
to be there And like it feels

good to have that kind of
relationship in your life.

You know, i think it's like
really healthy.

Speaker 1: It is man, it really
is, And I'm happy that you, i'm

happy that you have that,
because it sometimes it takes a

while to find that.

You know, i think people in an
age where things are moving so

fast, like where technology is
moving at the speed of sound And

like all, especially in crypto,
you know, people still expect

these like human things that are
so special, just to happen as

quick as you know, like a
notification on Twitter.

You know, but the?

No, there's no way that yeah.

There's no way, man, these
things take time And

unfortunately sometimes it takes
like some really crazy rough

experiences to like to make that
, you know go ahead.

Speaker 2: No, no, okay, got it
Okay.

Speaker 1: But I one thing that
hold on, i had something here.

Oh no, i found it Dude.

it's on a side note.

It's nice to know that someone
sucks as planning planning as

much as I do for someone who has
to plan podcast interviews.

Oh man Like.

Speaker 2: You have.

Trust me, trust me.

You have no idea, dude.

You have no clue how bad I am.

Speaker 1: Well it's, it's wild
Like it's yeah.

It's good to be in the same
company.

It's good to.

It's good to at least like know
that I, you know I have someone

that sucks as plant like I'm in
the same, but we're in the same

camp.

You know, we're at least in the
same camp here.

Speaker 2: I got you man, I got
you, I got you man.

Speaker 1: I got you.

Oh, cool man.

Well, i want to Victor.

This has been man has not
really a whole lot of words,

because I think we said them all
, so I just I can't thank you

enough for for doing this Like.

This has been like just
absolutely incredible Man.

Speaker 2: Dude, thank you for
having me, man, this is great.

Like again, it's like you, like
I feel like again, like I did,

i feel like I just met you today
And like that's why we were

talking about like about
connecting with somebody.

Like that Cause, like we're
talking in time at the time

office right, but like that's
just kind of like us being like,

oh cool, like what do you do?

Like you do cool stuff.

Say like, let's connect, but
this is what this is about, and

like I don't know, like it's
great And like thanks for having

me, man.

Like I really had a really good
time.

Speaker 1: Dude, i, yeah, it's
that what you said is literally

my whole, like my whole thesis,
just literally my only

motivation to bring people on,
like, oh, you're doing cool

things, let's talk about those
cool things And that's it right.

Like that, that is literally it
.

It is actually that simple man.

So like, yeah, dude, cool people
doing cool things and we get to

have cool conversations He
chose, dude, victor, want to

give you a like this wouldn't be
, you know, to go back to some

traditional podcasting things to
do.

Man, i can't let you off of
here without, without you

plugging your work.

Man, where, where can people
find you?

Like, where is your work
displayed?

Like, what is it that you have
coming up that you want people

to take part in?

Yeah, man, go ahead, go ahead,
Watch your shit.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's
very straightforward like for

like socials, like my name is
like Victor Mosquera Twitter,

Instagram And then into like
things.

That is happening right now.

I'm not sure when this is
coming out, but if this comes

out before July 21st, you can go
to Christie's in New York.

We have a show going on right
now called trespassing.

It's a bunch of like
contemporary artists Speaking of

a render and my doctor already
they're also there as part of

the show.

So if you're in New York
between now and the 21st, you

can go to Christie's and check
that show out.

I have an easy job, An easy
gateway drop coming pretty soon

too, Towards the end of the
month, the beginning of next

month, The beginning of next
month.

So, yeah, I'm very happy to do
like.

I can start to like release
this stuff right now.

Speaker 1: Hell yeah, man.

No, that's, that's cool.

Well, victor, this is again man
, let's chat a little like hang

out for a little bit just to
finish this uploading man.

But again, this has been.

this has been an absolute treat
And thanks again for coming on,

man.

Thank you for joining us on
another episode of the Shiller

Vaulted Podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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listeners, so if you have any

questions, suggestions or want
to share your favorite moments,

feel free to tag us on Twitter.

Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember art is

everywhere and it's up to us to
appreciate and explore the

beauty it brings to our lives.

Until next time.

this is Boone signing off.