Speaker 1: GM, this is Buna and
you're listening to the Shiller

Curated podcast.

This week's guest is Grant Yon,
an established digital artist

within the Web3 ecosystem who is
most known for his depictions

of life in Western America.

In this episode, we explore the
simplicity of appreciating your

surroundings, what it means to
remain relevant as an artist,

grant's ideas of success and the
role auction houses play in

Web3.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Buna and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now grab some coffee and let's
dive into this thought-provoking

conversation with Grant GM.

Grant, how are you Good, good,
how are you?

You know I'm not doing too bad.

I finished my first full month
of personal training and meal

prepping, so feeling pretty good
that I've crossed that hurdle.

So feeling my body's definitely
thanking me feeling a lot

better.

Speaker 2: Oh nice, congrats,
man.

I need to get on the meal
prepping journey.

I, admittedly, don't ever meal
prep because I'm too lazy.

Speaker 1: Well, i will tell you
, I am just as lazy as you are.

It's not me actually prepping
the meals.

I go to a place called Snap
Kitchen and it's all prepped and

I just go pick it up every
Sunday.

Oh, and it tells me yeah, down.

Speaker 2: No, no, no.

That sounds amazing.

I got to do that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's kind of the play,
because the thought of actually

me prepping my own meals just
made me nauseous and it was not

strongly incentivizing for me to
go do that.

So I'm all about the easier,
softer way when it comes to just

getting me over the hurdle.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly Same.

Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

So yeah, doing good man.

I'm here in Texas so we've been
having this unreasonably

suspicious nice weather, so I've
been trying for June.

It's like 7 in the morning and
8 at the end of the day.

Is that like that in Wisconsin
for you?

Speaker 2: Yeah, right now it's
like that.

It's actually pretty nice.

So we'll have to see.

I mean, wisconsin doesn't get
too hot but it can graze like

high 90s, like hundreds.

Speaker 1: but yeah, that seems
like part for the course, but

it's been especially in May and
April and it's like usually

we're already at 100 degrees And
so it's just unreasonably

strange.

Where it's, i'm enjoying it.

But yeah, stranger things have
happened So, but people are not

here to talk about the weather
or hear us talk about the

weather, so you know.

But glad to have you here, man,
definitely a long time enjoyer

of your work, love your presence
in the space And I'm just

thrilled to be able to have you
on here today.

Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for
having me man Always down to

talk and excited to you know,
just talk about anything.

Speaker 1: That's what we can do
.

We can talk about your dog, we
can talk about you know your art

.

We can talk about you know your
views.

I mean, you know whatever we
want to man.

So I kind of like to open this
up with a more broad, nebulous

question and feel free to take
it, you know, to answer this

however you want.

I always like understanding the
why behind the art that I see.

So I would just like to ask you
, like you know, why do you do

what you do?

Speaker 2: Good question.

I always talk about how my art
is supposed to be a medium

through which we can all kind of
share our emotions, like I'll

create something that you know
reminds me of my childhood, and

then you know, it's kind of a
landscape, so anyone can look at

it and appreciate it, and then
someone else will say, you know,

oh, this is something that
reminds me of my childhood, or

where I live right now, et
cetera.

I think that's part of it.

Another part is really like
personal, like I wouldn't say

living in the past, but I
definitely like to keep tallies

and just like bookmark all the
things that I've done in my life

.

So you know, my fiance and I are
really into journaling, or you

know what others might call
scrapbooking, or probably like a

combination of the two.

Really, you know, will like, if
you ever see us in person,

we'll always have, or like
little instax, like Polaroid

camera, will be showing that
nonstop, like we have like these

mini, like Canon IV printers
that'll print us like sticker

sheets of like offer phone.

So you know, i have like rows
and rows of like journals, of

like the things that you know
I've been doing over the years,

and so very similarly, i think,
when I'm creating art, i want to

like try to bookmark, whether
it's my inspirations, like what

inspires me as an artist, or
bookmark a certain place that

I've lived or that inspired me,
or you know, just something like

that, like it's basically like
a time capsule, essentially.

Speaker 1: I like that.

I don't think I've ever quite
heard it explained like that is

kind of a bookmark, for I mean,
maybe I have, but it just I like

the way.

I like the way you drill down
into that because I, you know, i

hear significant moments in
people's lives but I think it's

cool to just bookmark, you know,
even some of the smaller ones

that may have been incredibly
impactful.

So I think that's I really like
the way you said that That's a

great starting point.

I mean I guess I would go back
to you know, the childhood,

since you mentioned that.

Were you always kind of like, i
guess, just doodling or drawing

, or was there always some kind
of creative outlet?

And I guess the follow up that
to that as well, as something

I'm always curious about, is
what was your family like?

how supportive was your family
in your creative endeavors?

or are they feel free to answer
that either way?

I know I kind of jumbled that
up.

Speaker 2: No, no, you're good.

Yeah, i was always like that
one kid at elementary school who

would love drawing and like
withdraw a bunch, and even in

high school I would always draw
things And you know, normally it

was just like illustrating.

you know, like an elementary
school was like illustrating,

like my favorite movie
characters or something you know

like Star Wars or whatever.

And then you know it's like oh,
like middle school is like

illustrating, like my favorite
celebrities, whatever, right,

but still like I was always like
illustrating something And I

think I've always wanted to be a
photographer as well, when I

was a little kid And you know my
mom has a master's in art, so

it was my aunt and my aunt was
pretty big in my life when I was

quite young And they both were
our teachers in Korea.

But I think over the years they
aren't against like art at all.

But I think it comes in part as
well as being immigrants and

the difficulties of, you know,
living in a country starting

from the ground up.

I think they, just like you
know, will like to see me in a

career path that is more stable,
i would say, or more accepted

in society.

So they haven't been, they
haven't been against any of it

And they're very proud of what I
do today and all that.

And there's never been like
backlash but it's never been

like, oh, we're going to send
you to art school and stuff like

that.

But I had at the same time, at
the same time, i don't think I

ever pushed for it either.

I don't.

I never thought of myself as,
like I'm going to only do art

for the rest of my life.

I think art definitely defines
who I am as a person, but I

think you only live once and I
have a lot of endeavors, and

some of those are in academia,
and I personally enjoy like

learning about things and doing
things that are not art related

as well.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean, that's
something that's super

fascinating to me about your
story and kind of in what you do

here And a quick, i'm going to
put a pin in that and come back

to it.

But one of the reasons I asked
that is I just know that I'm 31.

So we're kind of same
generation, but it was just

always like it.

Just art was never like an
encouraged medium.

It was kind of like do that but
also go get kind of like what's

your family say, like it's like
we would like to see you in a

more stable job, and it wasn't
out of anything like it wasn't

out of anything ill will.

It was just like families
literally wanting the best for

their kids.

So it's cool to hear that they
you know they at least still

celebrate that, and I'm sure it
also helps that you are, you

know, an academia, and that's
something that has stuck out to

me.

I see there's a few artists you
know, including yourself, i

think Ronald and then Adawale
are two other artists that I've

seen that are also, you know,
doctors or studying to be a

doctor.

I've always found that
incredibly fascinating, that

blend, yeah.

So I'd love to know, like what
are you kind of like, what are

you studying And what is kind of
the, i guess, ultimate goal of

you know, studying whatever
you're wanting to practice?

Speaker 2: I just finished my
third year of medical school, so

I just have one more year left,
and and.

I'm applying to residencies,
like within the next I'll start

within the next month, i mean,
my apps are due in September,

but I'm almost at the end of my
journey here in medical school,

going into residency and
actually becoming a doctor, and

I think right now I'm going to
probably apply to internal

medicine.

And for people who don't know,
internal medicine is so you do

medical school, which you do
underground, which is four years

, and then you do medical school
, which is another four years,

and then you do residency And
depending on the specialty, the

residency length will change.

So, for example, if you wanted
to be do any form of surgery,

you first this is a little
nuance but long story short you

first do general surgery And
then general surgery is like

anywhere between six, seven
years, and then if you want to

do family medicine, that's like
three years and internal

medicine as well as three years,
and then, like you know, you

hear all of those specialists,
right.

So like a cardiologist or a
gastroenterologist, like a GI

doctor or a lung doctor, all of
those are fellowships.

So after a three year intern
internal medicine residency,

then you apply again for
fellowship And then that program

length is anywhere between a
year to like three years And I

think, like the
electrophysiologists are like a

fellowship on top of a
cardiologist, so that's like

four or five years on top.

So it's like you can go down a
road that's like never ending,

like, especially if you're like
going into surgery, like the

base is general surgery And then
if you want to do like be a

vascular surgeon or be a
cardiothoracic surgeon, then

it's more fellowship on top of
that.

So for me I think I'm going to
do general surgery sorry,

internal medicine for three
years And then I'll see what

fellowship I want to do.

I have quite a quite an
extensive publication list of,

like cancer related research.

So I don't know if that's the
route I want to take.

I think, honestly, it's really
just keeping an open mind, like

I'm down to learn a lot, like I
like there's some specialties I

really like I'm interested in,
like infectious disease and

endocrinology and like all these
things.

But at the same time I try not
to think of like a life is so

rigid.

You know, like I would have
never thought I would have gone

into NFTs, you know, and had I
like told myself when I started

medical school like I'm not
doing art anymore, than like

this would have never happened,
right.

So one step at a time, right,
and so I'll just apply to

internal medicine, see what
happens and just go from there.

Really.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean wow, i
mean it's.

I think you're, you're exactly
right And I think you have a

fantastic perspective.

It's one that we share is that
it's a pretty big world, and I

think my first realization of
that was like when high speed

internet first became available.

Obviously, i grew up with dial
up, but it really kind of just

opened my eyes to, you know, wow
, this is, you know, i mean the

world's big, but it's also
really small.

At the same time, it makes the
world seem small And there's a

lot to experience.

So, with the medical practice,
though, you know, or the, you

know, the drive to do that to,
you know, to get into a

fellowship and to finish that,
what was kind of like the

general thought process behind
wanting to make such a big

commitment.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i think I've
always just wanted to pursue.

I always wanted to pursue it.

I think there's nothing like,
there's no like one moment.

I think some people, some
people do have that moment.

like you talked to some doctors
.

some doc, like I was on the
surgery service, like last year

around this time, and I was
talking to a vascular surgeon

and he was an NFL.

he was in the NFL and he played
for three years And then his

story, on the internet at least,
is that he witnessed his wife

almost die during labor And like
he was like, so inspired by how

the like doctors like saves his
wife's life and his child's

life And so like I think he like
stopped playing football And

like he went back to school and
like he became like one of the

hardest like working specialties
in existence, right.

And then there's some people
like the cardiologists they used

to work with he would tell me
like I like, because I asked him

, and he was like, ever since I
was a little kid, like I always

told people I'd be like a heart
doctor, and so that's what he

became.

And then there's other people,
you know, some people just are

in it for money.

Some people, you know, mix, mix
, bag mix picture.

I think I'm just like I've
always wanted to be a doctor.

I've never, like had this
burning passion for any

specialty or anything, but I
think it's just a career path

that I always wanted And I think
the the concept that it's like

challenging, to like become one,
is like I don't know.

it's just something that, like
makes me want to achieve it even

more.

Speaker 1: It's super cool just
to like just to kind of see that

that sparked your interest from
a young age And I think that

it's probably got to be one of
the most rewarding feelings even

coming this far.

I mean that's, yeah, it's, it's
quite something And it's a

fascinating story about, about
Simon, and so one thing that I

think sports teaches us, or you
know, one of the most important

things it teaches us a lot of
things, but that just sense of

just relentless hard work And
community building and just the

fundamentals of that.

So applying that to a little
bit more of a work smarter

mentality versus a work harder,
or translating that is a pretty

I can imagine like this dude's
probably just absolutely at the

top of this game.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's never just
about like raw talent, you know

.

It's always about like how much
you want it, and that means so

much more than like you're good
at something like a baseline.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Yeah, i mean, i was a swimmer
and it was one of those things

that it was something I was not
naturally good at, but it was

some one of those like really,
really hard sports or just hard

work sports that just worked
incredibly hard, yeah, to get to

where I wanted to be, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, for
sure.

Speaker 1: Like.

At least something that I've
learned in swimming is that you

know it's a very, it's a team
sport, but it's also incredibly

individual.

You know you're racing against
nobody but yourself, against

your best time, and but yet you
have people surrounding you.

It kind of reminds me of like
Web three, you know where it's

like.

We're all kind of on our own
individual paths, carving out

our own little slice of the
internet, but it's all under the

guise of this new technology.

It's kind of the best way I've
been able to frame it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Like Super
Magro.

Like Super Magro sense, like
this whole space is going to

move forward And I'm pretty
convinced that, like Bitcoin and

the prices of some of the more
like established projects are

going to, you know, go up in
price.

But along the way there's going
to be a lot of people who don't

make it and a lot of coins and
projects that don't.

But so team effort overall is
going to be up, but it's like

everyone's going to have their
own individual battle.

Speaker 1: I'm glad that you
brought that up because you seem

to have a pretty like.

You seem to think about the
space and a lot of different

levels.

You know macro, micro, whatever
the hell in between that is.

So I guess I just wanted to
like layer in the basic question

of like how'd you find the
space?

You know what drew you to it?

Speaker 2: I think the voice
like always been like into

crypto I wouldn't say like in it
, but you know, i like was aware

of like crypto when I was in
college and like understood like

the basis for some of the
protocols and Bitcoin.

And then I don't remember like
the step by step memories of

like exactly what I did, but I
remember one day I was like

looking at people and he was
like I think I think it was

people I can't remember at this
point, but there was a I was

looking at for sure.

I was looking at some people on
YouTube talking about how like

they're like flipping like these
decentralized plots And I was

like, oh, this is interesting.

Like I wonder what this is.

Then I think I just looked into
what NFTs were And then, like I

didn't think anything of it.

I just was like, okay, whatever
thing is out there for me to

like put my art out there, more
like just to like share it or

get featured or something, i'm
just going to fill it out and

then like apply for it.

So I found the super rare
application and I was I didn't

know anything about NFTs really
like just that little thing

about like decentralized plots,
and so I was like okay, I'm just

going to apply.

I applied And then, like I
didn't, like I didn't think

anything of it And then
completely forgot about it.

And then February came around,
like three months later, yeah,

and then like I got accepted,
and that day I was like I don't,

like I didn't know what a
MetaMask was, like I like, i

really like did not know very
much, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

I mean, that's a I think that's
kind of around the period.

A lot of people were figuring
it out as well.

I know I came in around March
of 2021, you know.

but want to want to put a pin
in that and go back to one of

your initial you know initial
statements around, like some of

the broader macro you see
Bitcoin and some of the larger

you know NFT projects surviving.

I guess like wanted to know a
little bit more about like why

only Bitcoin, is Ethereum
included in that?

in your opinion?

Do you think NFTs will be fully
migrated over to Bitcoin or do

you think that that's kind of
like what will keep ETH alive?

Would love to know kind of like
a little bit more of the macro

thesis.

Definitely curious about that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i mean, my
knowledge base is like

essentially zero in comparison
to some people on Twitter, but

no, i think there is a.

Ethereum is definitely in that
group of things, group of

protocols.

I think will stand the test of
time And I also think that there

really won't be this huge no,
there won't be a huge surge

probably of like Bitcoin based
NFTs, but they won't never, in

my opinion, put like ETH based
NFTs in obsolescence.

I think just took too long for
ordinals to come around for like

them, to like completely
mitigate the effects of what

Ethereum has done for crypto art
, and I think there's a

historical so.

So there's like a historical
argument you can make which is

like the same argument people
make for like carry-o cards or

something, when it comes to like
, oh, these are historical.

But then there's like real life
.

That's like you don't have to
explain it like crypto punks,

right.

Like you can talk about crypto
punks and why they're historical

, etc.

Etc.

Or you could just go on Twitter
and see that, like your

favorite artists or your
favorite collectors are like the

biggest internet personas, have
a crypto punk, and that's like

all you need to know about it,
right.

And so I think the same thing
will be with NFTs, like, like

sure, there's going to be an
argument for things related to

ordinals and you know, like,
maybe Bitcoin will probably

remain as the dominant currency
for the you know near future.

So you know there's people are
going to make this argument,

that argument.

But you know, when you just go
look at galleries and go, you

know, look at auction houses and
go and look at, like, sales

volumes of NFTs, i mean, it's
just going to be mostly just eth

based, and so basically what
I'm saying is like actions speak

louder than words.

Speaker 1: Basically, Got it.

Yeah, i tend to agree with you
on that.

You know, i've seen the
argument of like eth flipping

Bitcoin.

I just I don't know if I could,
i don't know if I could see

that, but I definitely agree
that that would definitely be

here for the long term.

And I just couldn't see, like
punks are so ethereum, native,

like I just couldn't see that
migrating over.

You know, i just couldn't in a
million years.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if eth
like flips Bitcoin, then like

that is like a different,
there's like a you like enter a

different dimension, you know,
like it's like then like your,

then like your squiggle is like
actually generational wealth at

that point.

So it's just like that.

I, I, I'll not, I will not
entertain that, that idea.

It's probably safe.

Speaker 1: It's always a safe
one, And if it happens, fucking

wag me you know, that's awesome.

And so I you know, i know like
I I especially scrolling a lot

on your timeline I see a lot of,
a lot of generative art and a

lot of squigs.

I know, I know you definitely
have a joy or definitely have a

love for collecting And just you
know, as well as just observing

and enjoying generative art,
did that go hand in hand with

you coming into space, or were
you kind of a gen art maxi

before that?

Speaker 2: No, that one in that
came in As I enter the space and

you know, to be honest with you
, i'm not exactly sure what it

is that attracts me that much.

Like I understand, like the
idea that it's on chain, and I

think that's really important
and it's really cool.

But, like you know, like going
back to this idea that action

speak louder than words, like my
art is not on chain And like I

still am, you know, the biggest
proponent of my own art and I

think you know I believe in
myself more than anyone else.

So I, you know, even like the
on chain thing, isn't that like

it's very convincing, but it's
like not the reason that I'm so

into gen art.

I think it's just the idea that
there is finally a way to share

digital art, like this form of
digital art that has never been

shared before.

And it's just like the, quite
literally like the, the, the

most perfect way you can
distribute randomized outputs of

code to people in a limited
fashion that will retain value,

as, like a piece of art that
doesn't just require you like

handing out, like like pieces of
text that's the code, or like

just like printing stuff out,
like, no, like people can

actually own individual outputs
of an art and it's very like a

legitimate form of ownership And
I think that's like super cool,

like a super cool concept.

And, you know, on top of that, i
think the art itself that

people are creating is like
amazing.

So, like I, i like show Fidenza
to people like I remember when I

was onboarding Andrew to NFTs
like Andrew Mitchell, because

we've been very good friends for
a long time, like way before

NFTs, so like we we met in
Madison, wisconsin he was

working there at the time as a
software engineer, and so he

came to visit me just like
randomly And I was like and I

showed him Fidenza, without even
like mentioning NFTs, and he

was like he was like blown away
at how beautiful that collection

was.

And so I think it's mostly
driven by the coders, like like

the people who are coding the
art are just very talented

people who have an amazing Just
vision.

Like even if it wasn't
generative, like even if Tyler,

like hops, like hand, painted
every single for Denza, i

probably would say like it's
almost as cool as like if it was

written in code.

You know, i think just like the
aesthetics are just like so

strong for some of those
collections, like ringers, like

I really like, think ringers is
a very amazing collection,

regardless of you know the price
, action and stuff.

Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, i
appreciate you sharing that

because it's it's a hurdle and
this, like it was kind of layers

and laid into a selfish
question of mine, because I, you

know, i resonate the most when
it comes to art.

Like I resonate the most with
photography and I was having a

conversation with with one of my
friends yesterday, you know, in

the space about this and it was
like you know, i think I

resonate the most with it
because there's images of like

realism, even if it's like a
surreal picture, where it's

obviously not reality.

There's like there's, you know,
a person or there's an object or

there's you know something that
indicates, i think, that like a

human did it, you know.

And so I understand that Gen
Art has value and like I'm very

obviously very aware of that.

But I'm not trying to just act
like I enjoy it without

understanding it, because, like
I feel like once it clicks, it

click, it'll, it'll click, but
it just hasn't fully clicked for

me yet and I think it's just a
personal barrier of mine that

I'm like trying to understand
how to work through.

You know what I mean.

So it's just it's taking me a
little longer to get piled into

this and I haven't fully quite
hit that like oh shit, okay, i

get it, yeah, moment yeah, no, i
totally respect that.

Speaker 2: I mean, like, for me
it's always like aesthetics

first, right.

So like, obviously, like we talk
about Fidenza, like I really

think Fidenza is an amazing
collection, but sure, there's,

like you know, any generative
project I that I tweet about,

like if I'm not like fully like
invested in it because of his

aesthetics, i probably wouldn't
share it.

And I think there's a lot of
like really cool things

different artists and like
coders are doing in the space

overall that you never see me
tweet about.

Because you know, i think, like
as an artist, my thesis like

for collecting is like I just
want to collect things that are

really cool and like that look
really cool and, um, that would

look good in my future home with
, like my future family or with

my, you know, with the rest of
my collection in the future, you

know.

So I don't have to.

I don't want to like create a
collection where I have to

explain to someone why this is
supposed to be a cool piece of

art, like I want people to look
at it and be like, oh, that's

pretty cool, you know like, even
if they don't know anything

about art.

And I think, like if you saw
like a nine, a three by three

grid of ringers.

I think people would appreciate
that.

You know, these look pretty
cool, like as a minimal kind of

aesthetic vibe, and then you
know you can begin that

conversation.

Speaker 1: But you know, i think
, like it's always like

aesthetically driven, for me for
sure, thanks for saying that

and, um, i think that's
definitely helped because I

think part of it's I look way
too far into it.

I, i draw a lot of correlation,
you know, between abstract art,

like a like, abstract painting,
um, as well as gen art, you

know, because there's like,
there's the absence of those

figures, you know, generally
speaking, um, in abstract art,

and it's always that question of
like.

You know what makes abstract
art good, you know what like,

why does this make me feel
something?

is it the color?

is it the shapes?

it's a, it's a big gray area
from what I'm, like, typically

used to and I, i think I kind of
put those two in the same

category.

You know where it's like, wow,
like, why does this make me feel

something?

and I think part of it's just
moving past that own, my own, i

guess, idea of like that beauty
has to have certain it just, i

guess, like, expanding my
definition of what you know

beauty is and like, i guess,
giving myself permission to like

, let that go.

I'm a big proponent of like.

Growing is is not addition,
it's subtraction.

It's usually a subtraction of
old ideas and beliefs and things

that got me to this point, that
don't really serve me anymore

and that's kind of where I'm at
with that.

So I can appreciate that and I
think it's a really good

reminder to to not think so much
about it.

I think it's really easy to
overanalyze everything, you know

, because people have different
reasons for liking different

things and you know, going back
to the, the meme of you know all

arts subjective and that's the
truth.

But it's always a good reminder
to to like focus on the

aesthetic first and then, if I
want to get nerdy and go down

the rabbit hole, you know I can
do that.

So it's a great way to look at
that and I like the long-term

perspective and kind of how you
view, like your thesis of

collecting art yeah, i, it's
hard to like.

Speaker 2: I think one thing is
like blah, blah, blah is an

acquired taste, right, and I
feel like sometimes you

shouldn't like at least I try
not to like be resistant to

things.

Like you know, maybe I do like a
collection of art because

someone tells me that it's good
art.

Maybe, like I do like certain
pieces in an art museum because

it's in the art museum and I'm,
you know like supposed to like

it, and then maybe like those,
actually those thoughts like

actually mature until like an
actual appreciation for the art,

right, and so I like really I
wouldn't say passionate, but I

really enjoy looking at abstract
art and I try my best to like

see if there's any like cool,
like nice abstract art from

painters that I really like on
artsy and stuff that I can join

auctions of so I can buy it and
put in my apartment.

And I don't remember like
exactly when I found out that I

really like abstract art and I
can't even remember at this

point if it's because I felt
like I was like supposed to like

it because everyone else looks
like they like it or if.

I actually genuinely like it,
but at this point I do like

abstract art and doesn't really
matter, like how I got here, you

know yeah, sometimes the reason
for getting into something

doesn't like it doesn't really
matter.

Speaker 1: I mean, it kind of
does, but it also really doesn't

when you zoom out and really
think about it.

Some of the best lessons that
I've learned were because I was

like forced to do something, or
life kind of like put me in that

position, or it was just
because a couple of friends told

me it'd be neat.

You know, memetics is such an
interesting topic.

I've actually started that book
.

I haven't finished it.

I'm not sure if you've heard of
the book called wanting.

It's like a memetic desire book
.

I don't think so.

It it's super fascinating.

It's kind of a mind-fuck, you
know.

So like it's taken me a long
time to read because I have to

kind of take a break after every
two to three pages because it I

just go down a deep rabbit hole
, thought yeah yeah.

I'm questioning everything you
know yeah, no, i've never.

I gotta look into it yeah, sure,
i'll send it over to you okay.

Yeah, i'll absolutely send it
over to you.

Man, kind of coming back to a
little bit more of a little bit

more of your journey, you know
you mentioned that like

something that I've really
noticed in your work and it's

it's part of one of my thesis,
just in general around some of

the art that's being created in
this generation.

I think that you know, if you
look at history, that a lot of

challenging times as a society
has all has has produced some of

the most impactful art.

I would say I noticed that when
I went to the MoMA last year,

you know I was looking at the,
the, the paintings created like

from World War II, it was like,
wow, like the, the vibe in that

room is just different from the
rest of the museum, and so I

have this thesis around.

You know, obviously hard times,
you know, can force people

really to their emotions, into
into their own creative

endeavors, and I kind of think
that of this generation,

obviously we just went through a
pandemic and you know, i know

there was just a lot of feelings
of isolation, a lot of feelings

of emptiness, a lot of just
being forced to kind of look at

all the things that I've been
distracted by for a long time or

with all the external
distractions, and I noticed that

in some of your work is there's
there's very few people and

it's more of just I get just I
get this really big sense of

like isolation in your work.

Is that I would love to know,
kind of like what some of the

intention behind that is, or why
you, why you do that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot
of my art is like never about

the people.

Like if the people is, the
person is in an illustration,

like if a person is in an
illustration, it's really like I

put that person in there
because it helps like the

composition look a little bit
better and it makes me happier.

Like, no, like.

It looks just like like a more
complete illustration and I'm

sure like other people would
agree if they saw the, the

illustration, without the person
.

But like in terms of like
emotionally and like from an

artistic, like, from a deeper
artistic incentive, there's

really no reason to have people
like I don't, people in my art

don't really serve a purpose,
because my art is really just

about like there's a lot I don't
know it's.

I feel like there's a lot of
different things my can embody

and and kind of like showcase.

I think one of those things is
appreciating your life, like no

matter where you, where you are
like physically, where you are

like if you're in your apartment
, if you're in your house, in

the city or the town you live in
or the country that you live in

, like appreciating whatever
little thing that, like you

could appreciate right.

And so sometimes I like look
like I'm driving to work, or I'm

driving somewhere or flying
somewhere, and I look out the

window and then like, oh, it'd
be really cool if, like, i

parked my car right here and
just like, laid down on the

field and just like, kind of
like, appreciated my

surroundings.

And it's really hard for me as
well to just like sit in my

apartment, because I've been
living in my apartment for a

while, to just be like, oh yeah,
i really appreciate my

apartment, right, you know, it's
just.

It just doesn't feel like the
feeling that you had when you

first moved in, but it should
feel like that, right, like you

should like try to appreciate
every moment of your life and

try to make meaning from it.

And so the people in my
illustrations don't really mean

anything.

They just exist as the way to
balance, composition, building.

But the actual illustrations
themselves are, are there, just

like you know, like I talked
about like a bookmark of my life

, but also just like sometimes I
look at my own illustrations

and and I think like, oh man, i
wish I was there right now

instead of where I'm at right
now.

And and it just makes me
realize like, oh, you know, i

should just appreciate wherever
I am, like, because as long as

I'm not like fearing for my life
, like I should be just happy

and content, you know.

Speaker 1: I can very much
relate to that.

Yeah, there's a there's a
saying that fear and and love

can't exist in the same room.

You know, at the same time, and
also you know there's only one

thing, there's only one type of
fear that can live in the moment

, or like literally right here,
where we're at.

So another thing I've noticed
as well is you've you've

obviously traveled around a lot.

You know, you've lived in
californium, you're currently

living in the midwest and
wisconsin, but I'd love to touch

on, you know, life in japan.

How long did you, how long did
you live there and and how long

did you say therefore, So I
never, like, really lived in

Japan, but when I was young I
would.

Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time
in Korea and I lived in Korea

for a little bit when I was a
little kid and Korean was

actually my first language.

So it's really from those
experiences because I would go

to Japan during those times, you
know, because it's only like a

very short plane right away, you
know.

So that whole series is really
like my experiences on that side

of the world, because I haven't
been to Korea in quite a while.

So I was just thinking about,
like, how different it is, you

know, in Korea and Japan, and so
a lot of those illustrations

are both reminiscent of Japan
and Korea and, yeah, there's a

lot of like differences, i would
say, in architecture and road

layout and cars, etc.

But I try to embody all of you
know what made it personal to me

in my, in my series.

Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, i mean I.

I find it really interesting
because there was a show I

watched on apple called Pachinko
.

Have you seen that?

No, i haven't.

It's a good one, man, it's like
it, i know I, you know, i know

Pachinko's is like a slot
machine essentially yeah, close

to it, and but it was, you know,
although it's like a fun

activity, it was really
highlighting the inner conflict,

like in the early 1900s with
between Korea and Japan and when

Japan kind of occupied Korea in
a lot of different ways and it

was not like the biggest feels
good man show, you know, but it

was what really opened my eyes
to that, just that whole side of

the world.

It was a world I didn't really
understand and it was a really

beautiful story kind of through
history, where it went to like

the current moment and then back
to like the 20s and 30s and it

just did this beautiful job of
like interweaving how some of

the culture just carried on and
like what parts of it remained

through the test of time.

So it was a really you know,
especially when you said you

know you're.

I believe you said you're.

You're like you're originally
from Korea, so your parents are

Korean.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so
that's kind of what that made me

think of is like they probably
had some stuff passed down from,

like, the generation before
them during that time.

You know, it was probably a
really interesting set of ideals

that were, that were like
implanted in as a kid yeah, it's

a.

Speaker 2: It's a different
mindset, for sure, from western

ideology.

I mean definitely influenced,
but yeah, they definitely a

different upbringing than if you
were to live in America no

doubt would you ever.

Speaker 1: Would you ever see
yourself going back to living

there, or would you kind of just
stay over here?

Speaker 2: that kind of depends.

I feel like as a doctor, it's
kind of hard to like move places

like that, but sure, maybe if I
wasn't a doctor it'd be

possible.

I, i guess I mean it like there
would have to be a reason,

though you know, it's not just
like sure I could, i could see

myself living there, though for
sure it's very English friendly,

like and I'm slowly forgetting
my Korean, but like I could pick

it back up in like a second.

So yeah, i mean as a basically
as kind of like native Korean

speaking, like it's probably the
next best place to go after the

English speaking countries got
it, got it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean I keep
getting told by my friend that

it's a place that I need to go,
obviously huge into technology

and video games and you know I
did a little bit of homework

speaking of video games and I
know that some of the early 90s

video games were a big influence
in your work and would love to

kind of know, like, what were
some of your favorite, like you

know, childhood games growing up
and what were it did any of

those like?

were any of those like a direct
influence to kind of how you

found your style?

Speaker 2: yeah, i want to say
early 90s.

I'd say probably like early
2000s, since early.

Okay, got it yeah, but no, like,
let's see somewhat, probably

like a video game series that
like, like I was into the most

was definitely Pokemon,
especially like the earlier

games, like all of those like
really the backbone of my video

gaming life.

But you know, like I had a
GameCube, so kind of like all

the game, classic game games
that you have.

And then you know, like once a
like started playing with the

computer like Warcraft 3,
starcraft, starcraft 2, kind of

those era video games also
really were cool and sure.

And then, like you know, then
came like well, sims was kind of

in that era too, but then came
like stuff like Minecraft and

stuff and slowly like it became
like Pokemon was probably like

one of the first like open world
, and you know it's not the

first open world game but you
know it is very immersive and it

is an early like open world
game out there, right.

And so I think like this
concept of like, oh, like I can

build a world with my own
imagination I think it is always

something that I like think of
a lot.

That like that's what I want to
do with my art is like just

create places that take you away
like through your imagination.

Speaker 1: Going back to
originally.

First of all, big Pokemon fan.

My first console was the Game
Boy Color.

That was my first.

Yeah, it wasn't actually a
color screen, but you know what

I'm talking about.

It's just like it was, because
it was a color.

It was colored plastic.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh, i see,
wait, the Game Boy Pocket.

Speaker 1: No, no, no, it was
before that.

Speaker 2: It was literally the
second generation Game Boy

because the Game Boy Pocket was
the original Game Boy, but it

was like a smaller version.

It had like different colors,
okay.

So maybe it was third
generation.

Speaker 1: Okay, okay, yeah yeah
, it was the, it was the purple

see-through one and, oh cool,
yeah, yeah, me and my homies we

would try, you could, only
because it wasn't backlit.

The screen wasn't backlit
either.

And we, when we were playing
Pokemon and we had like system

link, you know, is that USB
cable?

right?

the Game Boy?

yeah, i have one, i have one
right now.

No shit, wow, man, that's
talking about nostalgia and

being transported back to a
different time.

Um, uh, but I remember it was
so frustrating because we

couldn't play it, like if we
were in the car driving

somewhere.

We couldn't play at night
because, like there was only one

little USB slot to do that and
we both needed our little worm

lights so we could see the
screen that we were playing on

yeah, yeah, those were, yeah,
those were good times.

Speaker 2: I try to pull up my
Game Boy advance every now and

then and it's really fun, but
like I haven't an advance and an

sp and I'm always like I want
to play the advance but like not

having a backlight, it's like
the craziest concepts of any

like.

Speaker 1: Could you?

You used to think that was
revolutionary.

I know, yeah, exactly Yeah, and
Gamecube as well, like those

were.

Those were some fun times, my.

But I would say I can't
remember my first ever console.

It was either the Game Boy
Color or it was the Super

Nintendo, but I never had an N64
, believe it or not.

That was like I felt so
traumatized as a kid because I

felt so so excluded from that,
from that conversation.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think
I'm a little bit younger, So

like the N64, like it was like
the Gamecube when I was like

young you know, And yeah the
Gamecube was, I always wanted a

PS2.

Like I played a lot with my
friends but I never like had one

for myself.

And I actually have one now,
but I don't have any time to

play it.

Speaker 1: I was going to ask
you do you know, even though you

don't have time, do you?

do you make time?

And if, like when you do make
time, like what do you play now?

Speaker 2: So I did get Tears of
the Kingdom for the Switch,

which is a new Legend of Zelda
game.

I've been playing a little bit
of that.

I'm like super busy because I'm
like studying for something

right now.

But I think once I have a little
bit time open I'll play that.

And then the other game that I
like actually follow religious,

religiously is Counter Strike.

Like I follow like the
competitive scene, so like I

don't have time, like most of
the time, But like I'll try to

watch all the live streams.

But if I can't, then like I'll
at least like watch the like

recordings and I'll look at the,
the ladder and the scoreboard

afterwards.

So I play a little bit of
Counter Strike, but I would

rather watch Counter Strike and
like do something else on the

side, just like multitasking.

But yeah, i do, i do really
like like precision, like

shooters, like Counter Strike.

Speaker 1: Yeah, counter Strike,
it's.

It's wild how old that game is
and how popular it still is,

like that just blows my mind.

You know I was before, funny
enough, before I came into Web

three, i was podcasting in
eSports, you know.

So I was interviewing, you know
, coaches, players, casters, you

know, production, anyone I
could talk to to try to help

advance that industry.

So I definitely have a soft
spot and it's wild to it's.

It's really cool to hear that
because you know there's a huge

generation of people that just
like are like you know why would

you want to watch people play
video games when you could just

play them?

And it's really cool to kind of
hear, you know, just kind of

firsthand, like that's something
you still genuinely enjoy

watching in the background.

It's, it's such a, it's such a
fun thing to be a part of.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i mean like you
watch, like, like, for example,

like you watch people play
competitive Pokemon and it's

like it's cool, but like if you
spend like any amount of

dedicated time and effort, like
you could get to that level.

But like the level of like like
precision shooting is like like

Counter-Strike and Valorant,
like those like require like a

different skill set.

And also like if you're playing
by yourself or even with your

friends, it's like the
communication like will never be

on to the point where, like,
you can like actually like play

At the level like they're
basically playing a different

video game.

Speaker 1: You know, at that
point, Yeah, i, i couldn't agree

more at that point.

It's so unattainable that it's
Yeah, i've noticed it a lot with

.

I love that you mentioned
Valorant.

That's probably my favorite
precision shooter to watch and

it's cool to see that, like as a
Counter-Strike person that,

like you, also enjoy that as
well, because I know how.

I know how gaming communities
can be Or it's just like you

know.

It's just if you're not like
just the maxis of any camp.

But I do enjoy Valorant a lot.

It adds a little bit more color
to it.

It adds that different element
of the abilities.

I think it's just a fun.

I think it's just a really
funny sport to watch.

It's it's like even though I
play Call of Duty, i don't like

watching Call of Duty.

It's not something I enjoy like
watching a whole lot.

But I do enjoy the old Halo
tournaments like I will go back

and rewatch some of the old Halo
tournaments on YouTube Because

those are just.

I mean, that was just peak in
my opinion.

Yeah, that's out of East side
of PC.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i don't know.

I I'm definitely still like a
counter strike maxi, like I do

like like Valorant is cool.

But yeah, but no, i the next
game.

I would like to like get it.

Oh, i also watch like Starcraft
, but I haven't been following.

Like I'll watch matches every
now and then, but I don't follow

the Like the tournaments.

Like I do counter strike.

I do want to get into Rainbow
six, but like I just like don't

have time.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's.

You also see, you strike me as
one of those people that like,

if you're gonna do it, you need
to like You need to have a

really set investment of time to
do it, to like cuz you just

like don't want to do it Halfway
.

I feel like you just want to
dive in and immerse yourself

With the game.

That's just the vibe I get.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i mean, i just
like I Don't know if I, if I

like continuously lose or
something, i'm like there's

something like wrong with me
that I need to like Gone and

then that like just spirals
until like actually like

spending too much time with the
video game.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.

You know, speaking on a broader
, broader topic of you know it's

something that I've kept my eye
on, but I haven't, i haven't

really been following it
religiously.

You know, what do you know?

cuz I, at least in my
perspective, i think that Gaming

is in a really weird spot.

Like I don't think that there's
a lot of just brand.

You know, i know Diablo 4 just
got released or the beta did,

and I know, you know I have a
bunch friends who are just

salivating over that But gaming
in general just kind of feels

like I Don't know, it feels kind
of stale in a way.

You know, it's like all it's
like we have like the giants

that are there, but it doesn't
doesn't feel like a lot of new

people are on the scene.

Do you think that, like, web3
has any role to play and kind of

like a resurgence of new, like
IP titles, and do you see like a

healthy integration between
these technologies?

Speaker 2: Honestly, probably
not very much.

I think it will have an effect,
but I Don't think the effect

will be to the point where it's
gonna bring Like.

It won't solve the problem of
there's like no new franchise,

that like is really dominating
the Gaming scene.

You know, i think like sure,
converting everything to like

ERC721s or whatever, like skins
and like Characters and stuff,

is like that'll be cool and
that'll bring in like more money

and more volume, like for
projects And like maybe play to

earn.

At some point like will become
enjoyable and won't just be like

continuous farming, etc.

But like, even beyond that, like
, like that doesn't.

That's like like a new payment,
like I don't want to call it a

payment service, but like a new
way to transfer assets and money

doesn't really solve like issue
of like.

There's no new good, like
innovative video games coming

out that are like Original
titles.

You know it's always like and
there's good video games, but

I'm just saying like most of
them are like just continuations

of something that has already
been, you know, well established

in the same.

Speaker 1: I kind of feel like
movies and video games kind of

share the same thing.

You know, it's like for the
past, like five to ten years,

like there's some great movies,
like obviously there's some

exceptions that are out, but
it's like There's just been

nothing outside of a remake or
remix of something that I've

just original story that I've
just been captivated by, you

know.

Yeah, so I would tend to agree,
i would tend to agree with you

a little bit on that.

My only counter to like, my
only kind of take inside of that

is I think indie games are
obviously the most ripe for For

using, you know, web through
technology, and I think that we

overshot the mark a little bit
in 2021 about everything, every

PFP project becoming a fucking
video game.

You know, and most people in the
gaming community just could

care less about this, which,
ironically enough, is what drew

me in, you know, like kind of
like what you were talking about

the skins of You know but I'm
like, oh cool, i would actually

be able to own the skins that I
buy.

Like that was like the first
light bulb moment for me Where I

was like this, this makes a lot
of sense, and so seeing all the

backlash from the gaming
community has always confused me

, but I think a lot of it is
just the Absolute insane bull

run energy of everyone trying to
turn everything into a you know

, play to earn kind of game
definitely turned gamers off In

a big way.

So I I do agree with you there,
but I also do think that, like I

think something whether it's
not like the next big hit

something will be inspired By
something that web through

creates, because we're also
noticing, i'm also noticing,

like a few people Who are
building in the background,

where there There's a lot of
devs that are coming from major

studios To some of these more
native projects that are

attempting to build Triple-A
games with some sort of

blockchain layer involved, like
whether it's just as basic as

ownership, you know, of the
assets that you have.

So I think it's interesting you
know it's a it's I don't know

if I'm quite my thesis around
like what would spark the next

bull run, you know, but I think
that someone who gets it right

has a pretty good shot at
captivating a lot of attention

If they can, if they can
integrate that successfully.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no.

Speaker 1: I agree.

Speaker 2: I totally agree.

I think, like, if, if, like a,
if a studio is able to create

like a genuinely enjoyable game
to play That's like very good

mechanics and then has a layer
of you know like, you know like

ether polygon or some l2 based
um token on top of that, i think

like that is like the recipe
for like immense success.

I just think it's gonna take a
lot of trial and error to get

there, and We've already had a
whole year of that and it just

like went not very well.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but also our
expectations in this industry

are, in this community, are
really really far from reality

when it comes to what it, how
long it takes to actually make a

good video game.

You know it's Some of these
triple A titles can take close

to you to like half a decade to
a decade to create.

You know, it's like making
video games is really really

hard.

Uh, exclude anything blockchain
related at all.

Uh, it's really fucking hard to
make a great game, um, and so I

think that people here we just
we kind of speed run.

Everything.

Here is like my has been my,
yeah, experience at least where

everything just moves so fast
because it's just always on and

permissionless and We kind of
forget that it still takes a

long time to build something
great.

Um, so, yeah, it's super
interesting.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, i mean, i
have the same.

I have the same qualms about
like Being an artist in the

space like it's it's really nice
that, like some of us artists

can make Like a lot of money
really fast, um, and that's cool

, um.

But at the same time I think
like It goes both ways right.

So A lot of momentum in your
favor is very helpful And like,

if there's something like that
bad that happens to an artist,

then like it's the same amount
of like momentum, but like with

downwards pressure, and then
that like really negatively

packs an artist.

I'm always like feel like I'm
on like a tightrope, like even

like you know, i'm sure like
people would think, like you

know, i'm sure people have said
like, oh yeah, like I want to

make it, like my grant has made
it as an artist.

But I'm still like as nervous
as I, as I was like when I first

minted a NFTs, like the concept
of, like You know, am I going

to be relevant, like in in a, in
a few years, or no, not even

sorry, not in a few years, in a
few months?

you know, and, and you know,
artists in this space Like

everyone has a different like
motivation, right, some are

completely like financially
driven.

Some are like completely like
artistically driven.

A lot of most of us are
somewhere in between.

Like for me, like I want to get
to a point where, like I can

use the momentum I have in NFTs
to like leapfrog into a career

in like Kind of like the bigger
art space right, like what

people call like traditional
arts in in web three, right Like

trad art.

But it's hard because trad art
moves, it's immensely slow.

I mean Like we talk about, like
every time I hear like people

talk about established artists,
like x copy.

I mean x copy Like an
established artist is like an

artist who has been working
decades and like quite literally

, like almost a century and in
like In their medium right, and

so like sure, when we use these
terms, like these are

established artists or these are
legends or like Like that type

of terminology, it doesn't
bother me.

But I always think, like you
know, like if we're calling

people who have been in the
space like two years legends,

then I think there's just like
so much.

I, at least for myself, i just
like think about that a lot and

think, like you know, like You
know like things move very fast

and like It's my responsibility
as an artist to try and stay

Relevant until I can get to the
point where I'll have Like an

art career outside of NFTs that
can help like dispelster my

career overall as an artist.

And so it's always in the back
of my mind, um and so, yeah, no,

like.

Going back to the video game
thing, it's like like everyone

expects a new, like Like
everyone expects like a play to

earn That's like, that's like
comparable with a like a triple

A title in like six months, and
it's just like it's not going to

happen.

And so how are you going to get
a project that you know?

how are you going to get a Web
three project that can

sustainably have enough
engagement for enough time to

create a triple A title?

right, and that's like five
years or like 10 years.

That's like like Eve hasn't
been around for 10 years, you

know.

So it's, i don't know.

It's a tough, tough concept.

Speaker 1: It really is.

I think you bring up a really
good point around the

terminology that people use here
And I can see how like that

would kind of be bothersome as
well When you really think about

time and what time means and
how new this just technology.

Even you just look at Bitcoin.

You know Bitcoin is a little
over a decade old, which is

nothing when it comes to a new
financial system or a new way to

transact.

You know we've had ours for for
a lot longer than that And I

think it's a really important
point to bring up around.

I guess the specific language
that we do use I feel like it

almost can kind of be misleading
in a sense where you know, yeah

, like two to three years of
someone creating art or like

doing really well here, that
seems a little bit off to call

someone, to use that term legend
.

But it's also kind of this just
again to the point earlier of

the space moves so damn fast
that I feel like it just it

feels like it feels like an
eternity to where I guess I can

see where people come from.

Speaker 2: But yeah you know, no
, yeah, I mean like you're a

legend for a day, right, And
then the next day like people

like don't even know who you are
.

Speaker 1: So yeah, that's how
it works.

I mean, in terms of want to
linger on this a little bit,

especially on, like what you're
talking about, your

responsibility as an artist and
the idea of relevance, you know,

do you like, when you, when you
, when you say staying relevant,

you know, is that driven by
fear?

What is that driven by?

Or is that how does that like?

I guess, what's your mental
model around relevance And like?

what does that?

what does that mean to you?

Speaker 2: You know I'm glad you
brought that up because it's

changed in the past few years.

So I try to I tried my best to
like approach This whole NFT

thing like very strategically
And very intentionally.

Like that Things here and there
And and I think, people that

are not in direct communication
with me, like in my life,

personal life, so like like my
fiancee, or like very, very

close, like our friends, like
Andrew, besides those people,

you know, people in NFTs might
like look at the stuff that I've

done and looked at it like, oh,
you know, he's kind of lucky

that he's done this and then,
and then like people not in NFTs

and just kind of like looking
at me from the outside in, like

people on I don't know, like my
Facebook, or like on Instagram

or like at my medical school.

Now, those people definitely
think like I just lucked out on

something you know.

But no, everything was like
super intentional.

And so when I first got into
NFTs, like the first thing I you

know I talked about this with
NFTs now recently just was like

you know, some of the collectors
some of the big collectors

first big collectors that like
got my arch.

You know, i would talk with
them a lot about like how to

improve and get more engagement
on Twitter.

So I learned about that And
then, like I remember, i set a

really hard goal for myself at
the end of 2021.

I remember I saw that was like
kind of when where my vans go or

like really, really hot, and
like that's when, like Drift was

really like that's when he was
probably like the top artist of

the year, if not like top five,
right Yeah.

And I remember that December of
2021, i was like so my next

goal for 2022 is going to be
like showing my face more like

literally like know who I am as
a person, because I think part

of the reason I really felt
connected to Drift was because I

was connected to Drift and his
art, and I think part of the

reason other people felt this as
well was because, i mean, he

has a really good story about
why you know the stuff he was

doing and the donations he made,
but also, like you knew who he

was.

You know he like has done a lot
of interviews.

He has a lot of selfies.

Like you know who he looks like
and what he sounds like, And I

think like that was like a goal
of mine.

So 2022, like last year comes
around and I made that a goal

And I think it's like.

I think it's like pretty clear,
like I've done that job pretty

well, like I think people know
what I look like you know to an

extent And like, if I'm
definitely like, if I'm at an

NFT related convention or an
event, like people for the most

part will recognize who I am.

So I think that was the first
thing.

Like I wanted to make sure,
like you know, people could

connect to me on a deeper level
than just like the art, right,

and so I try to take up as many
interviews as possible.

So, like, it's always like it's
always great to do an interview

because, like I'm, i always
enjoy just talking about, like

my life and you know why you
should enjoy my art and what my

art means.

And then this year 2023, my goal
has been to like really be in a

like, be known to be like an
appreciator of art, and so, like

, the one thing is like I want
to be as honest and true as

possible.

So I'm not going to like show
things Well, i don't want to

show things at all, but I'm not
going to like talk about things

that that I don't think are cool
, right.

So I'm not going to talk about
a PFP just because I think it'll

get a lot of engagement.

I think, like this year has
really been about like curating.

So actually I'm talking to
someone who I don't know if they

would want me to disclose just
yet, but I am like doing some

curatorial stuff And I think the
only reason well, i know for a

fact, the only reason I got that
opportunity which I would say

is like a fairly not a huge
opportunity, but I would

definitely say it's very
meaningful and important for me

is is because, like I've been
sharing my deck of galleries,

i've been sharing these
collections I really appreciate

on art blogs, on FXHash and on
OpenSea that I find.

And so I think like the next
step for me really is like

people can know me as an artist,
but I also want people to know

me like I want to keep my
relevancy as just like an

appreciator of art and I want
people to like value my opinions

outside of, just like valuing
my art, like they could not like

my art for all that matters,
like I genuinely could care less

, because there's enough people
who purchase my art to like keep

my art sustainable, as of now
at least.

So I just want people to
appreciate like the vision I

have for curating art as well
and hopefully like being a

curator and a appreciator of art
and like an ambassador for the

space who is genuinely focused
on like the visual aspects and

not so much monetary incentive.

People just come around to
valuing my like personal

identity And so hoping that like
keep my like our career afloat

as well.

You know, like kind of
trickling down.

Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for
going there.

Yeah, i appreciate that, that
drive and that sentiment, and I

think that touches on something
that I very deeply resonate with

is, regardless of people's role
here in Web 3, it's the people

that are kind of doing something
for the thing that's much

larger than themselves that make
that additional, extra

contribution.

You know like, you have your
talent, you have what you you.

Obviously everyone has their
own skill set and brings

something to the table on kind
of like a daily basis or an

every you know, whatever the
case may be, but I think that

there's definitely clearly a
distinction between people who

can.

It's like they there's, there's
something that's clearly bigger

than what they're currently
working on that you can at least

see like an attempt to
contribute to you know, and I

think I really appreciate that
and It's cool to kind of see

that different side.

I just, speaking from personal
experience, you know, just want

to give you some like direct
feedback Is it's been really

cool to.

It's like I've always known you
as the person who who has these

like really open.

You know broad Landscape
illustrations and they it

portrays.

You know a lot of its, you know
life in America and different

different parts of that.

But getting to see like your
obsession with, like Gen Art and

getting to see Some of what you
collect and getting to see,

yeah, these different sides of
you, i think it's incredibly

important And it can it adds a
different dimension Because I

think with me personally, i from
, if I put on my collector hat,

i don't really enjoy collecting
like it's.

It's I can't think of a
one-of-one that I've purchased

where I haven't had a Really
good relationship with the

artist.

It's just it's like a
non-negotiable for me.

You know what I mean And and
getting to know a little bit

more about them and what they do
and how they operate and how

they function, it's a I don't
think I could collect.

I mean, maybe I, maybe I could,
i don't know as of right here,

boona, in this moment, right now
.

You know the the.

That's just kind of like the
way I approach it, so it's It's

really cool to kind of see these
goals acted out in real time,

on the timeline and at these
events.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i mean thanks
for thanks for mentioning that.

I mean, like, I think one thing
for sure that I agree with is,

like every time I buy a piece of
art, like I will at least like

hunt down the person on Twitter
and like try to message them and

like I'll try to talk to people
like About why they create

their art and where I can learn
more or buy more of their art.

Um, and then like, the other
thing is like, i think, going

back to what I was talking about
about my goals, a lot of people

think that the only value they
can provide is like money.

Right, and That might be true,
but The route to get, getting to

where you can Bring more value
to your art, doesn't necessarily

mean that you have to create
more tokens, right, it's.

It's not always about I Need to
airdrop something or you get an

allow list to buy this next
thing that I'm gonna do, right,

it's.

It's, i think, bringing value
in a way that is Gonna help the

space grow and then, eventually,
it might come back to help you

from a financial perspective
where your collectors, in a

financial way, but even if it
doesn't, like if it helps Like

another part of the community
grow, then, like, i think that's

also a way to cement your
legacy.

That has nothing to do with
money, but I would say, like,

for the most part, like, if
you're vocal about, like the

people I see that are vocal
about things and They're really

pushing forward, you know, you
know concepts or artists or

different genres in web 3 or in
pushing boundaries, typically

like there is some, like Some
benefit to it.

Like that happens later on, you
know, like, sure, like all the

stuff that Eric has done, like
snow Fro has done, like with our

blocks, like, like every little
thing that I could bring up,

you know, has always come back
to like helping him And helping

his community out from a
financial perspective, even if

that's not like his goal right
Which from talking to him I know

that's not like not his goal is
to make as much money as

possible, right, it is.

His goal is to onboard as many
people to web 3 and generative

art as possible, right, and I
think it just so happens that

his good intentions, you know,
just reap good rewards.

Speaker 1: Basically, Yeah, i
mean, it's you hit the nail in

the head and it's this weird
kind of abstract concept of Not

knowing how or when it comes
back and in what capacity.

But it usually does.

It's been my, it's been my
experience as well, you know,

and and he's definitely done a
lot as someone who's again like

kind of on, still Maybe stepping
off of the sidelines of of Jen

Art, like there's no question in
my mind that you know he's Like

, especially what like, like
reading his tweets and his when

something big happens in the
space, he's always got a really

well thought out Opinion or take
or, you know, thesis or

whatever the case may be, and he
always finds a way to really

eloquently communicate that as
well.

He's a, he's a great and I got
the also had the pleasure of

getting to sit down with him for
like 30, 40 minutes in Austin I

can sense this this past year
and it was just, you know, he's

just a great person to be around
just immediately, amidst just

nothing but great, great vibes.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i always talk
about Eric like if you ever meet

him, like he makes you want to
be a better person.

Yeah, for real dude 100%.

Speaker 1: That's like.

Speaker 2: That's who he is Yeah
, Yeah, yeah, yeah it's.

It was great and uh.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, it's hard,
it's hard to deny that,

something that you mentioned a
little bit earlier, when you

know, kind of when we started
this talk about relevance and

legacy and You know the idea is
to kind of leapfrog into, you

know, the quote, unquote
traditional art scene.

You know, and it's been
interesting to see From my

perspective, the role That some
of these bigger auction houses

have been playing in in web 3s,
i guess, rise, i guess, in the

fine art community.

You know so, to be like they, i
clearly see a lot of different

takes earlier and a lot of
different approaches.

And you know someone I can't
remember who it was or if it's

just Yeah, regardless, it
doesn't really matter where it

came from.

But you know, the point that
they were essentially making was

that This space doesn't really
need, you know, the traditional

art scene and so, um, i was like
, well, i don't Like, i don't

think it needs it to survive,
but I feel like there's a

healthy world where they both
can exist and they it can kind

of be separate but together.

But I would love to kind of
know what Your take is on like

the roles that auction houses
play In and this new kind of

like digital art movement,
because it's just.

I still haven't quite put my
finger on it yet.

Yeah, to me the role of auction
houses.

Speaker 2: There's a, there's a
very primary motivator, which is

validation.

Right, it's being validated
that Whatever you're buying as

an NFT is actually considered
art, um, and we look towards

these.

You know kind of Entities that
have been around for a couple

hundred years, that You know are
recognized as, oh yeah, you see

the art You know are recognized
as, oh yeah, you sell from this

place.

Then you are an artist and like
there's really nothing else

Anyone can say about you, um,
and then, of course, that's like

kind of like the financial side
of art, right, so galleries and

auction houses really drive art
markets, and then we have kind

of the museum side and that side
of things, which is kind of a

different world on its own, but,
um, the role.

So, yeah, i, i think We don't
need auction houses, we don't

need anything in traditional art
, because NFTs, basically, up

until the end of 2021, were
sustainable without them.

Because, you know, the buyers
are crypto natives, the sellers

are crypto native, like It's
like there's enough money in

crypto to purchase these things
and and everyone can be happy

Well, not not everyone, but you
know, people can be happy and,

yeah, the space can be happy And
self-sufficient operating this

way, which is completely fine,
um, but I think, like there's

collectors out there who want to
be validated that what they're

collecting is meaningful, and,
just the same, there's artists

out there who want to Be
validated that what they're

creating is cool.

And in this art, um, and even
if like, like, for example, like

I know that I I've always known
that you know What I create is

art, and like, there's no
denying that I'm an artist, but

you know, it's still cool to
like sell with an auction house

and to be able to say that you
did.

You did this thing that a lot
of People would look at as a

very big pinnacle of, you know,
building an art career.

And so I think the The question
people should ask is Are NFTs

trying to Coexist with the art
space?

are they trying to be or are
they trying to like overtake the

art space?

Right?

I think the narrative in, i
think the narrative of crypto is

like this is going to be the
Reserve currency of the world,

right?

So the very like the, the
thesis behind a lot of crypto

Maxis is like this is going to
overtake, you know, kind of fiat

currency, right, as reserve
currencies.

But Or, at least you know, at
least there are some big Name

people in the space that think
that way.

But you know, it's very rare
that I see people talk about

NFTs in that way and To me, like
, realistically speaking, i

don't think that whatever
happened.

I think there's just like the
art market is so rich And

there's no way like NFTs are
going to define what art is.

So it really comes down to like,
you know, are we going to

coexist with Art?

like are we going to be
absorbed by quote unquote,

traditional art where we can
like, look at NFTs now as just

like, oh, this is just.

Like you go into a gallery and
you're like, okay, like you

never think to yourself You're
buying an NFT.

Like you just look at a
painting and an NFT side by side

and you're like, okay, i want
to buy this one.

And like there's not even a
mention of NFT.

You just like, give them your,
your eith wallet, right?

Or is it going to always be
like Traditional art is

different from NFTs and they'll
always be different.

And I don't necessarily want it
to be that way, because My goal

as an artist is to just be a
well-known artist, like period,

and I'll create NFTs and create
Things that are not NFTs, and I

want them all to be like
reflects my body of work, so I

would personally like these
things to coexist and probably,

like You know, be in the same
conversations.

That's a great way to think
about that.

I yeah.

Speaker 1: I don't think that's
going to be a good way to think

about that.

Yeah, i don't think there's
really Now that when you, when

you were saying that, i was
thinking like, yeah, there

doesn't really need to be a
reason For them to be separate.

There's not a really good
reason.

Um, and I think You know
anything great you've you trace

all the way back to.

If you just trace back to, like
the phones in our pockets, you

know we're on our desk, wherever
the hell they are.

Like I don't know how the
fucking iPhone works, you know,

but like I just know that it
works and I really like it and

it's really convenient and it's
it's very snappy, you know.

So it's kind of that point that
you're making around NFTs of,

like you're not really there's
not really going to be like a

People aren't going to call it
by the name of the technology is

what I'm trying to get at.

Is is that it's, it's just going
to be art Um, and I think it

It's um.

This is a topic it kind of goes
into a larger topic that I've

I've often thought about of you
know, with this this obviously

goes.

You know, nfts go hand in hand
with validating digital art Uh,

and valuing it to to a level
that it should be or that it

should have always been, uh, you
know.

So it always begs the question
of like, as we're increasing

towards, as we're moving towards
like a very digital society I

mean, we already are, but
there's no, doesn't look like,

there's a lot of signs of it
slowing down or going in the

opposite direction Is the value
of like physical works, um, i

know that physical works I mean
I listened to a Listen to, i

think it was the vante art Um Uh
episode.

You did uh, where you know you,
you had mentioned like, you

wanted your art to be fully
displayed as a physical Um and

that was very important to you.

Um is if you have like, a Feel
like, a preference.

So it begs the question.

I know some people are like,
yeah, it's all going to

eventually be digital and there
will be no physical Like.

Do you see a world in that
happening or like have you

thought about that before?

Speaker 2: If it gets to the
point where society values

digital over physical, then my
only reasonable prediction is

that Physical, anything physical
, will be immensely scarce and

thus extremely valuable, so only
Only increasing the value, both

from a societal perspective
like this is culturally and from

a society like very important
but also from a financial

standpoint like anything
physical is going to be

immensely expensive.

And so, like, especially like
art, like I do think, like, yeah

, i I am, and especially because
, like, art has been physical up

until basically the 21st
century, 20th century, so, like,

the more digitized the world
gets, the more expensive

physical art will get, simply
based off of like, almost like a

real estate kind of like
concept where, like, just out of

pure, pure scarcity, i think so
.

So, yeah, yeah, that's that's
what I think, yeah, i mean, that

makes sense.

Speaker 1: That makes sense.

And so the the follow-up to
that.

You know I've seen we're seeing
a like a lot of new emergence.

You know we're seeing a lot of
technology, new technology where

, you know, we're embedding,
like NFC chips into physical

pieces, uh, to like verify the
ownership via the token on chain

, and The thing that I've always
been most curious about, so,

especially for someone you know,
you, you, you did the physicals

with avante art, um, you know
as well.

And so How do you kind of think
about, like, say, if, like,

this piece was gonna sell, you
know, would it?

because right now, there's
nothing from Essentially forcing

the person?

I don't know, forcing is the
right word, but I guess there's

nothing, there's nothing that
stops the person from, uh,

keeping the physical and sending
the NFT.

I guess the the better question
is, like the role, like if, if

we start moving towards
physicals with NFT chips in them

, you know, or chips that can be
traced back to the chain, what

role do you see?

or how do you see that playing
out?

because I just, i don't know,
it seems like a great idea and

like it makes logical sense to
me and I think I really like it.

But the hurdle is like Uh, what
happens when this gets sold as

the physical come with it or
does not?

where does the value lie?

Um, i guess is the better
question.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i think I
actually don't enjoy NFC chips

in my art.

Oh, like I wouldn't have it on
my art.

Um, i, i understand why it
exists and I think it is pretty

cool for things like products
and and things that are more so,

things you consume on a
day-to-day basis.

I think there is an important
Like, for example, like NFC, nfc

chips on on t-shirts to claim
Whatever as an NFT, like that's

pretty cool, right, and I can
totally get behind that.

But like I see, like my, i see
my art as being displayed one

day in like You know, i don't
know, like a huge like at the

moment.

One day, right, like I don't
know if that won't happen, but

like that would be my goal and I
don't really like I just think

that technology moves really
fast and there probably will

come a day where NFC chips are
just like not Relevant anymore,

right, like there'll come a day
where, like, bluetooth is not a

thing, um, there'll come a day
when Wi-Fi probably won't be a

thing, right, and like there's
just some like other emerging

technology and so, like I just
don't want something that I just

don't want something that will
that has the potential to become

completely archaic in my, in my
physical works, um, which kind

of like is difficult, you know,
like road to go through as an

artist.

Because Now I have to think
like, how am I gonna because I

do enjoy like creating NFTs and
then having an Uh physical on

the side, or maybe the other way
around, like like the physical

and then the NFT on the side, um
, but the thing is like, how are

we gonna like value these?

and so I think the first thing
is like I think about this like

you buy, like, let's say, you go
on artsy art net, one of those

like kind of like internet-based
art sites to buy fine art, and

You know you always like look
and and you always want to know

like, oh, this is come with a
certificate of authenticity And

if it doesn't, then the value of
that artwork is probably not as

high as if it did have a
certificate, right?

So it's like okay, I'm gonna buy
this all-in-art NFT from a

collector.

Does it have the, the NFT as
well?

Are you gonna give me the NFT
as well?

And if it doesn't, then the
value of that probably would

drop considerably Because the
owner would want like, like, for

example, like, like, like we're
seeing this right now with

fedenza, right.

It's like Like people are
buying fedensas on open sea and

they're like well, is it claimed
or is it not claimed, right?

and it's very clearly like the
ones that are signed, the ones

that have a claimed signed print
from Tyler Hobbs are worth not

as much as the ones that haven't
been claimed yet.

Um, and I've seen collectors
talk about how like they would

like to purchase the uh, they
would like to have the Sign

print come with the fedenza they
buy if it is claimed right, and

so there is this very like
there's a high premium paid for

buying physicals alongside the
NFTs.

Um, and I think I'm gonna try.

I'm working on a body of work
right now that I would like to

have shown somewhere somehow,
some way as a show, and I want

to explore that concept as well.

Like I'm thinking right now I
might have the NFT as a

certificate of authenticity.

So it's not the actual art and
you'll be, the actual art is

just the physical, and then
maybe the certificate of

authenticity or something like
that will be the NFT that you

can claim as well, but the focus
will be put on the physical.

But you know, i'm not too sure.

It's a difficult road to
navigate and it just like is a

problem entirely constructed
because of NFTs and like this is

not a problem that's ever
happened before.

Speaker 1: Yeah, totally Yeah,
thanks for sharing that.

I think that's a cool concept.

Yeah, because even with an
addition that I bought from Zaid

Kirtzky, one of my favorite
illustrators he, you know, it's

like that certificate coming
with it is incredibly important,

you know.

so I like the concept of that
And I'm kind of excited to see

how that plays out for you,
because I think, you know,

there's a few artists that I've
talked to that are just

exploring new ways to kind of
push the technology forward, i

guess, and also not only push
technology forward, but just

push, i guess, ideas and
concepts And mental models.

I think is one of the most
important things, because we get

so easily stuck in mental
models here.

As you know, as you very well
know, so excited to see that

grant And that was gonna kind of
be the question I wrapped up

with was, you know, like, what
are you currently working on, or

is there anything that you're
working on that you'd like to

share as well?

Is there anything outside of
the current body work that you

have coming up?

Speaker 2: So I am gonna have a
avant-art, another avant-art

drop, and it's gonna be an NFT
and like the additions as well,

and then I'm gonna do a very
special one-of-one with them too

.

And I don't and by the time
this podcast comes out it

probably will have been known,
but it has a very it's like a

really cool material for the
one-of-one And like I had to

sign it last month And like I
remember it was delivered to me

so I could sign it, and like it
was like over 100 pounds for the

box.

It was like this wood crate And
it came in this semi truck and

the FedEx driver was like you
have to carry this with me

because I can't carry it by
myself.

And so, yeah, i signed it.

Like it was just like the
biggest pain in the ass to like

move, but no, super proud of it,
it looks really good, it'll be

a one-of-one.

So, yeah, i mean I'm working on
that.

What else do I have?

I probably will have something
with an auction house this year.

That is gonna be a new
one-of-one of mine, so that'll

be really cool, still flashing
out some details And then I

think that's it for like current
drops for the year.

Besides that, i have like other
things here and there that are

small, that are kind of like
probably related to NFTs, but

not so much like it's just a
drop right.

So I'm working on this
curatorial thing that I think

will be super cool as long as we
get all the details flushed out

And, yeah, just like a couple
collabs here and there, but

besides that I guess that's a
lot.

So, yeah, i have a lot, but I'm
trying my best to like make

sure that I don't put out too
much.

And you know another ending
conversation of supply and

demand.

So you know, i'm just doing my
best to like create and just

drop things that are really
meaningful.

Yeah, that could be a whole
nother podcast of a conversation

.

Speaker 1: Supply and demand.

It's like I'm not gonna be
doing that Supply and demand.

It's such a nebulous
never-ending moving goalpost.

Yeah, Yeah, But yeah, Grant,
thank you for yeah, thank you

for not only coming on, but
spending so much time with me.

You're a man of many talents
and do a lot of things, So I

really appreciate you coming on
and spending so much time and

having such a fun conversation
with me.

Speaker 2: Yeah, no problem, and
thanks for having me Super

appreciated, especially the fact
that you know we got to chat

about things that are kind of
things that I don't normally get

to talk about.

So it's really cool sharing my
experiences and really

appreciate you just reaching out
to me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely man.

Well, and yeah, do a little
sign-off man.

Again, grant, thank you so much
, and you have a great rest of

your day, you as well, take care
.

Thank you for joining us on
another fantastic episode of the

Shiller Curated Podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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