Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Schiller

Curated Podcast.

This week's guest is Joey
Lawrence, where, as many know

him, joey L, an established
photographer who is most known

for his massive body of work
documenting the country of

Ethiopia.

In this episode, we discuss
Joey's why behind his work, his

relentless search to find the
similarities in people, the

importance of brutally honest
friendships and so much more.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own.

Speaker 2: NFTs to discuss.

Speaker 1: Now it's time to grab
some coffee and dive into this

conversation with Joey.

Joey GM, sir, how are you?

Speaker 2: Hey, what's going on?

Nice to see you.

Speaker 1: You as well, man,
this weather.

I'm in Texas so the weather
here in almost June is like 70

degrees in the morning and like
85 in the afternoon, which is

unheard of man.

It's suspiciously great weather
.

I'm not sure if you feel that
in New.

Speaker 2: York, i'll have to
come visit Texas one day.

It's definitely on the list.

Speaker 1: Dude, consensus was a
blast Yeah.

Speaker 2: I'm really jealous of
some friends that went down

there to talk.

I'll go next year, I think.

Speaker 1: It's low-key, one of
the most slept on, like web3

parts, because it is like a
crypto conference.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good for
NFTs, though They need to reach

out to the other side.

Speaker 1: That's why a lot of
like some of like web3 people

fade it because like it's like,
oh, it's a crypto conference,

but it's like where do you think
the money comes from?

It's like this is like the
greatest spot for a web3

conference to be.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's
exactly what all the NFT people

have to be doing.

They can't be staying isolated
in these little bubbles.

For example, art Basel Miami
was interesting, but it's like

way too disconnected from the
whole point of doing it for that

week and doing it part of Art
Basel.

I really doubt like many people
from Art Basel stopped by.

They were very insulated.

Same with consensus is very
good, because all the crypto

people some of them don't even
understand NFTs or why they

should collect things.

I think that's like a really
good example of outreach.

Speaker 1: I think you're
touching on an important topic

of like.

it's like the importance of
these trips and like where to

spend your time and like what
the purpose of these trips are.

You know, and like one of the
main reasons to be there.

Because I definitely feel like
and I think I told you offline

like this is my first cycle, so
it's like all of these

conferences are brand new to me,
especially in my craft and my

profession like why it's like,
but I always have to like ask

myself like why am I here?

You know it's fun to hang out
with friends on Twitter, but

it's like you know well, those
people like leverage NFTs are

just leveraged ETH.

Speaker 2: There you go, easy to
explain, there you go.

They're not.

But they're not just that.

But that would be in my way to
NFT build them, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: Is that how you?

so?

let me ask this when do you
spend any time pilling people

outside of Web 3 into NFTs?

Speaker 2: Yeah, but I come at
it just from the art side and

the print collecting side
because, you know, selling books

and edition prints is a big
part of what I do And when it

comes from that side it makes a
lot of sense.

I don't actually try to like
convince that.

You know, if Maxi is a Bitcoin
people to buy NFTs, i was just

joking, but from my last drop,
one of the collectors was

another photographer and it was
his first NFT that he had ever

bought And I think that was like
very meaningful to me because

it was someone from outside the
space.

We got him, we got him Another
one, but he was super interested

in NFTs also, so he'll start
making some as well, and that

was really interesting.

And the rest of the collectors
were the names that everybody

recognizes, which is good too.

Speaker 1: Sure, sure.

I mean, yeah, it's.

I don't spend a whole lot of
time either, but the people that

have a genuine interest in what
I'm in, like anything that I'm

doing, you know the best way I
like say that it's just like

it's a way to prove digital
ownership, it's way to it's just

like the.

When I said that last night,
even I was like I've never heard

NFTs described like that.

It's like it's all they are.

Speaker 2: Yeah, like I'm
literally about to ship someone

a print that has been mounted on
D bond.

It's like a metal that's
archival or display And there's

no place to put a signature on
it, right, like usually.

I would sign in the in the
white margin and edition it

there.

But it'll look horrible if I
sign like on top of the picture,

like that's a big no.

No, they look more like a
poster.

So I have to give them a
certificate that's, like you

know, debossed and has, like,
the information of the print.

So that's literally just just
what it is.

It's the same thing as that
certificate.

So for photo collectors, our
collectors is very easy to

understand.

Even my dad he's old school,
you know, he lives in the

countryside, he's an antique
dealer.

All this stuff makes, makes
total sense.

So if you come at it to people
that it's like a very natural

thing that we already do is just
a better, newer way of doing it

, i think it makes total sense.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean you hit
the nail in the head because

I've gotten only one kind of
fine art print You know that was

not a poster And same thing.

It was that the certificate of
authenticity, the addition

number, the signature, you know,
and I had the framer put it

like in the back.

It's like I got a custom frame
and it was like put in the back.

Speaker 2: Oh, i like that, you
know, with a little window.

Oh, that's nice.

I like that.

I appreciate that.

Yeah, oh man, that's good, yep.

Speaker 1: I only factor in
since, like that's the challenge

with me, buying physical is
like one site, so I'm a big tool

fan, you know, and so I buy.

you know like I would instead
of like buying the band tool or

you love drills, No the band.

Speaker 2: Okay, I couldn't.

Speaker 1: I couldn't be far
this like I am like not a drill,

like a drill and hammer and
nail kind of guy Not me Got it,

And so I.

I like collecting posters
versus t-shirts, because posters

don't get worn out in the
washing machine, right, You know

.

Um, and art has a lot better
memory than you know a t-shirt.

And once I framed my first tool
poster with museum great glass

and the custom mats and it was
like okay, like it's like, I get

it, you know.

But it also kind of sucks
because, like now, when I buy

physicals, I don't buy a
physical unless I have the money

to factor in a physical frame.

Yeah, So it almost doubles my
cost.

Speaker 2: Yeah, because another
thing is, if you're a

photographer, you send people
prints.

if they're not mounted or
displayed, they're just going to

sit there in a tube, right,
it's like too expensive or just

too much of a headache of a
process.

You're delivering a print.

I think it should be mounted in
an archival way.

Speaker 1: Oh, dude, i love
physicals, though, like I.

You know, as digital as this
space is, you know, i think that

it's there's still.

I noticed that's one thing I
noticed that in New York was the

, especially at the Babylon
event, where there was this

beautiful display of physicals
alongside digitals, you know,

and so I think it's still an
incredibly important piece to

the space.

Speaker 2: Did you collect any
Alex Gray artwork?

if you love tool?

Speaker 1: I have one right next
to me.

Okay, you can't really see it
because the camera's mounted,

you know, but I do have a signed
one from him.

Awesome, one of my favorites,
awesome.

Yeah, have you gotten to meet
him or paint with him, or do you

?

do you just follow his work?

Speaker 2: No, i just.

I like the artwork a lot.

Somehow he captures how that
realm looks with its organic but

machine kind of shapes.

He like really was able to take
something visually back and

share it with us.

That's really fucking cool.

Speaker 1: Yeah, he still
continues to.

It's incredible to to just
watch how yeah, i I'm not going

to muddy your description
because that's actually a real,

it's a really great one.

Like I'm not going to try it.

Okay, but yeah, i mean.

so, speaking of like the
physical, digital, you know

additions.

Like you're a story
photographer, like you, you've

been.

You've been photographing since
well, your bias is 18, but I

imagine you were starting before
then.

Speaker 2: Profession?

Well, yeah, since I was about
seven years old, damn.

Speaker 1: So what was that
first?

like kind of like, how did that
all start?

I got seven years old man Take
me back.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember I
had a birthday party and we were

playing with my dad's first
digital camera.

It was like a 1.4 megapixel
point and shoot.

That was like new at the time
And we were amazed to like see

ourselves on the back of it.

And he got it to photograph his
antique restorations before and

after.

And then I started, you know,
messing around with it,

photographing my toy dinosaurs
and setting up little dioramas

And like I was seven years old
at the time, So like you know,

taking the toys out to the lake,
to the garden and like setting

them up and then playing with
that in Photoshop and like

adding little lights and effects
and stuff.

And then what I was in high
school later, I mean I did many

kind of like emo, kind of like
self-portrait photography.

Then I started getting hired by
like local bands and the bands

from Toronto to do their album
packaging and MySpace pages.

Then I had a portfolio that was
just a collection of weird

youth culture kind of portraits.

So then I got hired to do movie
posters and stuff of characters

because it like it was very
similar kind of work up like TV

shows or movies where they
wanted an environmental

portraits of the characters.

At the same time when I made my
first money, I would finance my

own personal projects and do
the assignments that I felt like

, why I became a photographer in
the first place And I've always

like tried to keep doing that
and carry on my own personal

work, no matter what I'm
commissioned to do.

And then over time those two
have overlapped a lot more.

Speaker 1: That's sick man, I
mean.

so something else going to ask
anyway is like the why behind

you do what you do.

Speaker 2: Well, there's a few
reasons why I became a

photographer.

The why question is very
important.

I think that I became a
photographer to kind of explore

the world and have an excuse to
be inserted into locations or

scenarios that I don't belong
unless I'm doing that craft.

So there's a few things you
could do where you could end up

in someone's backyard and it's
okay for you to be there, right,

it could be a journalist.

It's like okay, well, that guy
is kind of supposed to be here.

or photographer Oh, it's like a
war zone, i guess.

Like war zones have
photographer sometimes, so that

makes sense.

It's like there's not really
other things that you could do

to end up there.

Then, at the same time, it's
not just pretending and using

that as an excuse.

Like I said, there's also a
level of artistry and technical

things that get involved with
this as well.

So it's like using your own
vision and using your own art to

elevate those subjects that
you're already interested in,

that you want to be a part of or
you want to learn more of, but

also contributing and adding
something to it with your art,

which could be part of a
historical narrative one day, or

it could be contributing
something to it just simply

visually for other people to
experience and kind of attaching

yourself to it or lending your
eye to it to spread it around

the world.

That's what I really think a
photographer does.

So it doesn't have to be
journalism or something like oh

I need to report on these
stories that people need to know

.

That's a big part of
photography, but that's not

really what I do.

What I do more is portrait
photography, which is like half

about the subject but half of my
contributions as a visual

artist to the style and also
making a mark of myself there.

So it's like half half, if that
makes sense.

So that's what I do as a
photographer And that's what

gets me really excited.

When I see something first and
foremost that interests me, but

also like how can I add
something to it of my own?

Speaker 1: There's a lot of
people that focus on what can

they take from something, and I
like that.

Your take is like what can I
add, you know, to something?

because I you know what I mean
Like it's we take.

We take so much every single
day.

I mean it's, it's almost like
we don't have to think about

taking because we take so much.

Speaker 2: I think that's that's
honestly human nature and a lot

of a lot of things just simply
exists, whether there's a

photographer there or not,
whether they take more or not.

But I think that, like, my
favorite kind of work is the

stuff where you can like feel
the presence of the artist there

and you kind of know that like
what they were doing and like

that's the kind of stuff that
really stands the test of time.

Also, there's like a presence
there and I really like that.

So, yeah, it's like easy to
like go around the world and be

annoying and, like you know,
click photos and take, take,

take.

There's a lot of people who do
that, but there's, as you said,

there's there's a lot more to it
too.

Speaker 1: And it sounds like
you found that pretty early on,

you know, and so like something
is obviously a big focal point,

at least from when I was viewing
your work and watching your

videos, like the two biggest
bodies of work that I've seen,

like art in like a big zone of
conflict where it's like whether

it's in Iraq or whether it's in
Ethiopia, and like doing that

alligator, like hunting
crocodiles, you know, but both

of those zones, like the common
thread is that there is a lot of

conflict going on there, you
know.

so you mentioned earlier about
like you know you wanted to

insert yourself in places that
you probably shouldn't be there.

What kind of drew you to zones
of conflict?

You know, like what is like the
second side to that coin?

Speaker 2: Right, i think by by
nature I'm not really drawn to

just things that are dangerous
just because they're dangerous,

i think if they're like, for
example, there's a lot of at

that time, there's a lot of
active war zones where you could

say like I'm a war photographer
so I go to different wars, like

that's not what I do And I say
I'm not have no interest in that

, because there's some wars that
are not interesting to me.

So in Iraq and Syria, it was
more about a cultural project,

about the Kurdish cultural
renaissance that happened when

the state that oppressed them
had run away and left them to

have to defend themselves, but
also experience at this time

where they could speak their own
language, reignite some

cultural things that had been
lost over the decades.

And to me as a portrait
photographer, that was like very

interesting time to photograph
And of course it was like in an

active war zone and fighting is
a huge part of it.

But that also becomes kind of a
background story And like to

the main thing that I'm trying
to remind myself why I'm there

to photograph.

So I think like stories,
stories like that are very

interesting to me.

As for Ethiopia's was kind of
like the opposite of that

Because, as you mentioned that,
you know there's a lot of

conflict and things going on
inside of the country.

But the goal of that work was
to actually do the opposite and

ignore the politics of the day
that come and go like the wind,

and focus on the enduring things
that have stood the test of

time And that are usually not
photographed by foreigner

photographers, that are usually
like overlooked, to focus on the

other thing.

You know, like when you Google
Ethiopia, you see a very

different country than what's
actually there because of the

contributions of foreign
photographers who didn't

interpret the country the way
that the people who live there.

So those are both good examples
of, like I think, portrait

style projects, but I think
they're both very, very

different in context.

Speaker 1: I can see the
difference between, like looking

at or highlighting some culture
that has been repressed and

watching them bring it back to
life, versus culture that stood

the test of time.

It's not necessarily being
repressed, but it's just like

highlighting that Exactly Now.

obviously, with your work it's
like you primarily do portraits.

You know why.

like what made you like, fall
in love with that?

Speaker 2: When I try to do
landscape photography or

something, it usually comes out
real bad.

I just like have no talent in
that or interest in that.

I think it's just following
what you're interested in and

what you love right, and what
you're curious about, and for me

that's 100% people.

And you know, i've seen some
beautiful landscapes on my

travel where I've just looked at
it and I've been like you know,

there's no way that I know how
to capture this thing, like I

don't know how to do it.

Or if I did it, it wouldn't get
it the right way, and there's

other people who are way more
gifted at me than that, so it's

just I think it comes from the
love first, like what are you

curious about?

So for me it's people.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean I
noticed that a lot in your work,

in the videos, where you know
there's a lot of time that you

spend like getting to know the
people that you're with.

How big of a role does that
play in your work?

It's like getting to know the
people of the place you're

photographing.

Is that like one of the most, i
guess like one of the most

important things?

Or like how much time do you
spend doing that?

How do you build these
relationships?

I mean, because it just seems
like you look so comfortable

doing that.

Speaker 2: I think what's the
most important is to do a

project about something that you
really give a shit about and a

place that you would just be,
whether you're a photographer or

not, I suppose, or let's say
like a place that you have a

passion about, or not even a
place, but a subject matter that

you're passionate about.

So for me, ethiopia is obviously
connected with my family,

because my wife is Ethiopian And
I spent a lot of time out there

since I was 18 years old.

And for me, i don't think I
could do another book on another

country, like, let's like, for
example, i love photographing in

India.

It's one of the most photo
friendly places.

But could I do a book that was
just called India And, like you

know, this book is about all the
things that are in India.

I don't think I have an
interest in that.

Maybe a specific topic that I
was fascinated in India could be

a nice book, but the country
focus for that was like very

personal to me.

So, to answer your question,
like getting to know people,

yeah, of course it's like easy,
or if you know people, or

they're family members or the
person knows that like you

really care about what you're
doing.

But I don't think you have to
like go to a place and do this

thing where, like you, spend
months and months and months to

be honest and, like you know,
hide why you're there.

I think you should always tell
people that you're a

photographer and like this is
the end goal.

But the goal for that time
might not be just to start right

away.

Right, it might be about making
connections first or, you know,

people being curious and like
what your work actually is first

and getting them more on board
that way.

So one of the examples that I
use to use that Ethiopia

reference is that in Ethiopia a
lot of the power politics is

through representation.

So if you want to photograph an
Islamic community, the way to

do it is to show the elders what
you did photographing a

Christian community, because
then they'll think, oh, this is

very good, because we want to
represent, we want to be the

Islamic community inside this
book, like that's a good place

for us because this other group
did it.

If you show them like another
thing you did that's related,

that's good because you
understand Islam or something.

but it's more powerful to show
like that they can be a part of

this book and represent their
area very well.

And if you get people involved
like that, they become very,

very active and want to be part
of the project, as opposed to

just showing up and taking a
bunch of random projects.

I tend to like really over
explain things to people and

just very, very detailed, and if
, like, if they don't know, like

everything I'm going to do,
like it's going to be a book,

it's this and this, and that
it's not going to yield like

very good results.

We were talking about Iraq and
Syria, so, like I would have the

same conversations with some of
the commanders who would have

to give me permission to
photograph.

It's like I know that you
follow this Kurdish philosopher,

right, i've read all of his
books.

This is why I find it
interesting, like this is what

I've seen with my own eyes.

Back in the other military
position that I was just in, i

observed this Like, when you
talk to people like that from a

place of true passion, they
really feel like you're there to

document them in a way that's
noble for their cause or for

their culture or for their
location.

What I am not is and this is why
I tell people too, like I'm not

like a gotcha journalist or
something, like I'm not trying

to like listen and see what you
guys are doing And then, like

you know, write about the good
and bad of what you're doing and

be like, quote, unquote,
neutral, like I'm not neutral

here, like I'm doing a project
on your culture.

Yeah, so there's no gotcha here
.

I want to see like the good
shit.

But I also like, like I'm not.

Like there's going to be no
photo in this book that shows

poverty.

There's going to be no photo in
this book that shows conflict

in the Ethiopia sense Why Not?

because those things don't
exist, but that's not what this

project is.

Or like Kurdistan, okay, if
there's some like military

fiasco where things get fucked
up, right, like there's going to

be no world in which I don't
listen to you, right, i'm going

to be terrified anyway.

So I'm going to stick with you
guys.

But it's like that's how I
approach it, as a photographer

is not being some kind of rogue
element.

It's like including people and
working with people.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean kind of
like it.

I mean, what I was getting as
well is like it looks like you

like just immerse yourself right
into whatever it is that

they're doing.

You know it's like, it's like
you're one of them, you know,

and so it's a really cool vibe
that you give off there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I
hope to do.

It's sometimes successful,
sometimes not, but that's what

I'm really trying every time.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean, but I
also think that one thing that,

like, i picked up on is that,
regardless of a language barrier

, in the actual language that we
speak, it's like I feel like

the actions of that are always
felt, regardless of if they

understand what you're actually
saying or not.

Humans are incredibly intuitive
creatures.

You know, we do do some dumb
things but, like, at the end of

the day, there's that deep sense
of intuition of like, is this

genuine, is this real?

Is this person doing exactly
what they say they're going to

do or what they're?

Speaker 2: trying to do, and you
also don't have to do it all in

one trip or one thing.

You can build over time, over
years, right?

So it's like you can do the
first little project.

It's like I know you trust me
this much, but like wait until

you see what I did and then I'll
show you next time and then,

like, you'll trust me a little
more.

That was very true in Iraq and
Syria was like they had you know

, in one case, the media officer
of the armed group literally

shared my video on their
Facebook page, like look at this

what this guy did.

So then, when I went back,
everyone knows oh, it's that guy

who did that video that we like
, or that was like honest.

And then, yeah, the next time
you can go a little deeper and

even sometimes people will even
stick out for you, right, and

like try to like get you even
better stuff or try to push you

a little further.

So that's like nice.

It's like if you go there and
you're like interviewing a bunch

of people and ask a bunch of
questions.

The nicest thing is when
someone like asks you a question

back, because then it's like
they're interested in what

you've done, what you're doing,
like curiosity, even in what

this is, is like a very good
sign.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean that's
as someone who talks to artists

primarily artists and a few
collectors like it's yeah, it's

a treatment.

It's like when someone, whether
it's within the space or

outside of the space, when
someone asks me my opinion, it's

like oh, cool like I get to
answer the question now It's a

good feeling Like we're all self
interested and we all want to

tell people what we're trying to
do, you know.

But yeah, so something that I
was curious about, like when I

so my first overseas trip was to
Egypt back in.

It was a wild first overseas
trip, it's like it's a pretty

pretty special one From Texas to
Egypt.

From Texas to.

Speaker 2: Istanbul, from
Istanbul to Cairo, nice.

Yeah, yeah, it was a 16 hour
round trip.

Speaker 1: It was brutal, which
I was not prepared for.

I tried to sleep to private
myself and save really late, so

I just knock out on the plane.

But I didn't knock out on the
plane, so I don't know how the

exact number of hours I was up,
but it was probably over 36.

And it was really brutal, nice.

But once I recovered it was
great Now seeing all the

monuments and all the, all, the,
all the pyramids and everything

that these people built with
little to no technology.

The colors that were displayed,
like in the tombs, were, you

know, obviously natural colors
and they were still.

It looked like they did it
yesterday, right, and it's like,

wow, okay, this is cool.

But some of the perspective
shifts that I came home with was

really interesting.

Like some of the uglier sides
of like I had to like tip to use

the bathroom, you know.

Like dogs were treated like
rodents, you know, like it was,

like you know, and just like
like seeing, um, blatant sexism,

blatant racism, just very light
, it's just out in the.

It was like wow, okay, okay,
there's a world out there.

There is.

So I'd love to understand how
coming back from Iraq and doing

that trip, how that shaped your
world be when you came back here

.

Speaker 2: I'm curious to know
more about your Egypt trip also.

That's one place I would love
to go one day.

I don't know, it's like I've
been traveling.

It's not about going there and
coming back, i don't know.

I've been traveling constantly
since I was 16 years old And I

think what you find is, over
time, that these other places

they're not like.

I think the world is more the
same than it is different.

There are some shocking things,
but it's just like I don't know

if I have a treasure trove of
things to pull from.

That would be like we'll take
back these things, but it's true

that most Americans, and most
Canadians in my case, do live in

a kind of bubble, but at the
same time, this is like a very

culturally diverse country as
well.

So if an Egyptian traveler were
to come here, there'd be like

many interesting experiences,
both good and bad, i think they

would take away from as well,
and being exposed to those

things as a human is just
important.

So I remember I had spent a lot
of time with an all female

militia called YPJ in Syria, but
they are ideologically so

interesting and inspiring.

And then I do remember coming
back and seeing like a music

video and like how women were
depicted in this like music

video, and it's kind of like wow
, this is like very shocking to

me right now, just as a kind of
a window dressing example.

But I think, honestly speaking,
you just carry a lot of those

things with you and try not to
forget them.

But I also think, try not to
put a kind of a mythological

covering on some of these places
.

Like, when you get there, they
really are just kind of the same

.

Like, for example, you, when
you get off the plane, you're

the same person, whether you
have sleep deprived yourself,

right, as you were saying, or
not.

It's like you just don't really
kind of worry about that.

When you get to a place is just
like, yeah, there's some

magical things that are
different, but I would say, all

in all, we're kind of the same,
right.

I don't know if some of the most
challenging things I have done

as a photographer is try to
photograph the places that I'm

more familiar with, right.

I think that's a good challenge
because it's not like, being

this kind of photographer is not
about like, where are you going

to go next?

Like, what crazy place?

Right, i think you should be
able to photograph around.

You know my small hometown in
Canada in the same kind of

environmental portraits that
I've done in another country.

So there's no otherness or
something.

To me that would be like a
challenge just because it's what

you're familiar with.

That to me would be like real
artistry, is like try to, you

know, be the Egyptian guy who
came to Texas and like how would

you photograph it?

You know that would be super
interesting.

Speaker 1: That really would be.

Speaker 2: I'm trying to think,
because I'm trying to think of

the similarities between Texas
and Egypt, and you know Well in

most cases, what photographers
do is they'll go to a country

and just photograph every single
thing that's different about

that place, and then that's why
the world looks so different is

because we've only focused on
the things that we're like

shocked by, or like why this
kind of like genre photography

exists.

That's like what's so different
about us, right?

And you know, as I'm saying, an
Egyptian photographer coming to

Texas, he was focused on many
things that are mind blowing to

him, right?

So it's just like we see all
that, all that visual stuff,

because it's like focusing on
what's so different, but it's

actually like most mundane
things that a photographer

wouldn't shoot are just as
interesting, i think.

Speaker 1: As you were saying
that I was thinking through the

photography that I've collected
or that I've grown to appreciate

as an enjoyer, and it's not
necessarily like it's usually

the boring places that are like
quote unquote, boring places.

I guess boring you could just
equate with familiar.

You know we have a high, we
have a, we're so inundated, we

have just such a high threshold
for things that wow us and

excited us these days.

But yeah, i mean that actually
it makes too much sense And, at

least for me personally, i
collect art that I have a strong

personal connection with, and
it's usually not of someplace

that just wows me, it's just of
a concept or of a moment or of a

feeling, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, the photos like
they shouldn't be boring, or

boring things is just like the
otherness is not a crutch to

lean on And for that's all.

That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 1: It's a great point.

Yeah, so you know switching
gears a little bit, man you've

been.

you've been doing this like you
were successful photographer

well before web three.

What killed you?

Speaker 2: I was living in
Ethiopia at the time And I was

getting caught up with some
friends because North America

looked like a hell world through
Twitter in 2020.

Because, like the whole you
know the whole pandemic and

everybody seemed to be going
crazy through this weird like

bubble that I was witnessing the
world through And I didn't know

like what was true or what was
going on.

Because in Ethiopia there was
like COVID and the health

minister did a great job, but
there wasn't like a crazy number

of cases like Europe or America
was like pretty tame and people

basically just lived their
lives because there's no other

choice or no possibility to do
these insane lockdowns.

So I was catching up with some
friends at the time.

I was talking with Sam Spratt,
who's been my friend for like

over 10 years.

And we were talking about
everything And he's like, oh,

this is other thing, but I don't
know if we should talk about it

.

And blah, blah, blah, we talked
about some other thing.

And then before I hung up the
phone, i was like, hey, what was

that thing that you wanted to
talk about?

Like they're called NFTs.

And then I've also known Justin
Aversano since before web three

, also not so closely, but just
through a mutual friend, and I

saw like what he was up to.

I was like, wow, this is
interesting.

Another early web three person,
lyle O'Werco, was one of the

first people to drop on Nifty
Gateway.

He told me about NFTs like
really early on and it just

totally went over my brain.

I was like That sounds bad.

I didn't like look into it, but
he was, he was doing amazing at

that time.

So it's like kind of all these
like things built up.

But I would say in like late
2020, early 2021, i started to

really pay attention with some
of the Nifty Gateway drops and

just not getting involved myself
until November 2021.

But just kind of like paying
attention to it because I've had

Bitcoin since 2014.

And you know, that was a very
interesting kind of part of my

brain, like the ethos of crypto
was very interesting to me.

But I was always a photographer,
so the art crowd never really

messed with that.

It was like a different kind of
person.

They were like poker players
mostly and tech, tech kind of

people.

But so I never really knew
about what I had.

I just kind of ignored it and
kept it.

But then when all this art
stuff became attached to it, it

made a lot of sense to me And
kind of both of these interests

for me were combined.

So I watched for a long time
and was too afraid to enter and

to mint anything, because this
sounds like ancient history now.

But like photographers were
very confused, like before

Justin did it, people were
putting little animations on

their photos, like, should this
be?

you know, should I add a frame
or some smoke to this thing?

Speaker 1: Like or can I do that
?

Speaker 2: Or like is that so?

I like even.

I remember listening to a
podcast and they had mentioned

that a photo could be an NFT and
I was like, oh wow, this is

amazing.

So it took a long time of
observation and just generally

being afraid, but then I finally
did it in November.

Speaker 1: I feel like that's.

It's good that I mean, like I
took my time as well, you know.

It's because very soon like I
was just terrified to even

transfer USD to Ethereum, you
know it was like Oh right, like

the technical challenge or why
I'm going to disappear Like what

made you afraid More of just
like.

Do I trust this?

Speaker 2: You know, it was like
what am I?

Speaker 1: it was a big thing.

What am I even doing?

You know, it was like you like
make a big decision, or you

think about something you're
like well, Sean, and then like

it comes to the actual execution
of what you're like, I'm sure

most, most people who have
collected JPEGs have asked

themselves what the fuck am I
doing?

Speaker 2: At least once or
twice.

I hope so.

I have had Yeah a few times.

Speaker 1: A few times, but I'll
tell you though, you know it

was interesting.

It was a I actually had a chat
with a bona fide Han, who's, you

know, founder of DECA, and like
we were chatting about this

like what's going to onboard
people to what's going to like

be the next way of onboarding,
and what he was, what he chatted

about, was really interesting.

He's like the, the moment, like
the zero to one moment from

people from fiat to crypto, is a
lot larger than the gap from

crypto to digital assets.

Interesting Good take.

And so I was like, okay, that's
really interesting.

And so you know that, because I
, because there's years of

traditional financial
institution knowledge or

institutional knowledge around
finances and how markets work

and you know what do we agree
upon that a lot of that kind of

has to be undone to come into a
place like this, because it's

very it's crypto is very
ideological and it's it goes

against a lot of what we built.

You know it's great It's got to
this point.

So, yeah, that was the biggest
challenge for me, because I grew

up in a way where it's just
like you know, my parents did

decent in the stock market, like
they taught me good financial.

You know, like, even though I
didn't follow them, they taught

me good finances.

You know, they did do a great
job in spite of what I you know

how I, how I acted, but yeah,
that was a huge gap for me.

So, yeah, and it.

But I remember that period of
photography not really being

accepted because it was like,
you know, i sat down with

Catherine like I think 2021 or
late 2021.

And she was like, yeah, like we
were like trying to like figure

out, would this be an accepted
medium, would this be like a

real thing?

Like, as you know, because
Super Rare was kind of focused

on 3D, you know, they were kind
of fun.

It was.

There was a very single track
kind of focus And I don't know

about you, but like I attribute
a lot of that.

It's like there's a few big
players that came in.

You know, justin, i obviously
Justin.

That was iconic.

You know, with the Twin Flames
and then the amount of spaces

that D's was hosting, you know,
and just like, putting

photography on the map was like
a huge deal that I don't think a

lot of people remember.

Speaker 2: Yeah, there was also
Jay and Silva doing nifty

gateway drops right concert
photography and stuff like that

It was.

It was really unique for the
time.

For sure is like first, first
people to do it.

Speaker 1: Dave talks about Dave
Krugman talks about Jay and

Silva being like the biggest
on-boarder for photographers you

know, or one of them you know.

Speaker 2: Because that that
made it okay not to, you know,

put some weird thing on your
photos, or just the photo is the

art, which is what we already
believe by nature, but it's like

it could be accepted in the in
the space.

So we I'm very thankful to
people like that, because

without them then, like none of
this would would be here.

Speaker 1: It's kind of wild to
go down memory lane with you

here, because it was just such a
different, is such a different

time.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel a
little bit of responsibility to,

because it's still like it,
even though we say, oh, you know

, those people made it okay for
us.

Most people, especially
photographers, are not really

into this And especially now
that everything has collapsed,

there's like this is very like
low, low interest.

When things were going crazy,
there was a lot of it Interest,

and I like used to have even
zoom calls with many of like

friends and there's like a grid
of photographer faces and I'd be

like, okay, now your seed
phrase don't pass it over the

camera right now.

You're going to write it down
on paper And do not like Brian,

brian, do not type it into your
phone right now.

No, like, right, right, and we
like do things like that.

And now all those people have
kind of dried up asking me about

it because we're in this market
.

So it's like there was interest
and it was gone.

There's interest and it's gone.

So it's like I do feel a little
bit of responsibility to be

like those people that we
mentioned to help explain this

for people.

But really they have to be
interested and come first and be

like willing to do all this
weird stuff that we do, and then

a few of those people have
stuck to it and have been like

very good.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean and what
you mentioned, though, was the

part of that story was what Han
was talking about.

Is that that moment, like don't
put your seat phrase on your

phone?

It's not the NFT part that's a
problem.

It's the crypto part, it's the
self-custody part.

I think the self-custody part
is the biggest hurdle because,

like, we're used to the banks
doing that shit for us.

Speaker 2: You know what I mean,
yeah, but I will say, though,

that photographers who have good
backup practices are really

used to cold storage stuff,
because we were taught the

correct way of doing things is
to keep hard drives not plugged

into a computer, preferably with
no spinning parts So solid

state hard drives are best and
put that shit in two different

locations that's not connected
to the internet, in a safe.

That's literally my backup
process.

I have hard drives in two
different countries that are

literally like in a safe or
hidden or whatever, and that's

how we keep images backed up.

I had my own site server, ovh,
caught on fire and like the

server room blew up and, like a
lot of people lost their

websites.

I had my thing like backed up
on two hard drives, right, and I

could pull from it.

So I would say photographers and
people who handle a lot of data

in the correct way, like this
kind of thing is usual, i would

say And I don't know if we
should change it too much right.

I don't know if that's a hurdle
that people want to make easier

, or maybe there can be the
onboarding thing that Ledger

wants to do in case you screw up
and like that should be a

separate product And then there
should be another product for

people that like want to go full
on bearing gold in your

backyard type vibes Like that
should be available.

But maybe not the starting
point but, like you, slowly get

there.

Speaker 1: I think you hit on a
great point because initially

that was really triggering when
I saw that thing from Ledger and

it was like oh my God dude,
what are we?

Speaker 2: doing.

Well, i think it was the way in
which their behavior was, the

kind of smug way that one of the
I don't know if he was a CEO or

someone or one of these like
smug guys came into a Twitter

space and was like talking, like
, oh, we could have done this.

These people footing us follow
us like, no, that's, your only

job as a company is to
communicate security and to make

these devices, and if literally
what Ledger is about yeah,

that's literally you have one
job and it's like it's not even

if you're right which they
probably are right It's like

kind of not your job to go into
like a Twitter rant about how

people are fighting you right?

Like that's not.

like, yeah, i digress.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but to your
point, though, like I think that

now that like the dust has set
a little bit on that, but yeah,

they completely fucked up in the
way they communicated, i do

there was some progress, so,
like on their roadmap, where it

was like, okay, this is there
because they're making all of

their devices like open source
now, like they're pulling the

treasure mark, and so it's like
there was some good that came

out of that.

You know, i think they weren't
really planning on it.

It accelerated, or it
accelerated a lot.

Speaker 2: Well, they're a much
better company than Trezor,

that's for sure.

Like the way they run
themselves is really great.

Like they have their own NFT
collection.

They're really involved with
the community.

They sponsor so many events.

Everyone that I've seen part of
that company is really good.

It's just that the way that
they've rolled back things is a

testament to everyone speaking
up and saying like no, that's

not what this is.

I don't think that's like
ledger's victory or something

That's like all the people who
complained about it victory

Because, like, when you expose
yourself to attack vectors like

that, you know there's
unforeseen things that nobody

wants to happen but could
definitely happen with such a

device.

I even wonder about you know,
like people ordering those

things.

like what happens to the point
when it goes from the factory to

your doorstep.

right, like, yeah, like, right
now you could, you can order.

you know fake SD cards on Amazon
from Sandisk that it's like

another person has listed it If
you don't go directly to the

manufacturer, like what's going
to happen if you know there's a

sponsored link and someone's
like found a way to hack these

things and send out fake ones.

So there's a lot of unforeseen
attack vectors.

when you like, do that and you
know shard, you know the seed

phrase and send it out to play.

It just seems like a really bad
idea.

It's a good idea to grow the
business and it's a good idea to

appease your investors right,
and it's a good idea to get

another round of seed funding,
but it's not a good idea to mix

those two products when you're
crypto native and they should

have definitely seen that.

Speaker 1: Right, That's what.

yeah, I 100% agree with you
there.

But I also do think, though,
like the longer I thought about

this was like the way I pulled
my you know, the way I was

pulled like into the space is
like I read a few white papers,

you know, I read a few blogs, I
listened to a lot of podcasts.

Speaker 2: You thought your key
is your cheese.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, but
like most people aren't going to

do that, you know, and so, like
, the longer this, like the

longer this went on, i'm like
you know what, like for the

person just getting involved, i
could see this as a valuable

product.

Yeah, for someone who's like
try it, like they want to get

their feet wet and eventually
they can get involved with the

community and eventually they
could get a separate device and

eventually they'll see why
that's maybe not the right way,

but in a way it's profitable for
ledger.

It gets more people involved
and you know people could get

wrecked, or they don't, or they
don't get wrecked at all.

You know, it's like I don't
know, but it seemed like the

longer that that went on, the
better.

that it's like okay, you could
probably get a few more people

involved if they had some of
these services available.

But to your point, though, like
those need to be separate

fucking devices.

that happens.

Speaker 2: But what about all
the identity theft that's about

to come out with AI?

Like I had to send a photo of
myself holding my license to

Coinbase to unlock my account,
right, because I've, like, i

think before we were recording,
i was telling you I had, like

2014 Bitcoin in there And you
know I forgot about it.

I lost my password.

Like like ledger would.

This ledger thing would have
been great for someone like me.

But, at the same time, who?

who is the entity?

Who are the three entities you
know that you send?

send your ID with a photo to?

that's really easy to fake.

You can even get someone who
looks like you just to hold an

ID.

Like who?

who is actually doing those
checks?

It's a human.

So when you have a human,
there's like a lot of points of

error.

The whole point of the ledger is
that it's a trustless system.

You don't need like I don't
know who are they farming these

out to?

Is it some French guy who has
to be like?

this guy looks like the ID,
cause that's how it works.

Now, right, their services that
even you know some call center

receives these two things in
some foreign country, you know,

and maybe the work of that paid
that well, maybe the guys got

something going on that day that
has to verify these things And

he's just like, okay, these are
the same people, so I don't.

I don't think that's like a
good idea for a key.

Speaker 1: But that's what.

That was the question.

It's like okay, well, what is
it going to take for people to

like cross this chasm?

Well, they're not they're.

Speaker 2: They're never going
to pay back their investors.

Just, you know, selling keys to
a bunch of weird, you know gold

, gold bearing people.

Speaker 1: They have to do
something to expand the business

And that's good.

Speaker 2: They should do that,
but it should be separate,

separate product and not like
foisted on all the existing ones

, cause that's your only
audience and the only patronage

system they have right now is
like the people that love that

company and that talk good
things about it.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Yeah, that's right.

Couldn't agree more, man.

So it's like, you know, going
back to kind of before we

started talking about ledger,
you know it's like you talk to

people, you pill them into this,
that people that are like,

people that are interested,
though you know it's, it's a lot

easier, especially like and I'd
take the same approach I in the

beginning, i was like the
Jehovah's Witness, where I was

just like screaming the good
word of, like, blockchain

technology to people who didn't
want to hear it.

You know, it's like I probably
did more harm than I did.

Good, you know.

But speaking of like what you
know, like I definitely had a

sense of conviction after I
listened to the space where they

had the two buyers that bought
the people piece, you know, is

every day's in 2021.

Speaker 2: That was like what
killed me.

Speaker 1: So it's like
Metacovin and Tubidor.

Yeah, yeah, that was also right
around the same time that they

had the largest punk sale, for
4,200 ETH, which is the alien

Fedora, sunglasses, a pipe, punk
, and that was all in one like

clubhouse chat.

So I had no fucking clue how
like big that was, but like it

was a big deal.

Pay attention for a very long
time.

Yeah, absolutely So, like what
was like, what kind of keeps you

moving through a market like
this, where it's like you know

there's every reason to not be
here, right, like there's.

We see, we're seeing it a lot
like, i'm seeing it a lot.

Obviously, there's blood in the
streets, on the timeline, sales

are obviously down, you know,
and there's just a lot of

uncertainty.

So it's like what, like?

what keeps you going here?

Speaker 2: Well, as an artist,
this is a new extension of what

I do.

It's not a print edition system
renewed and built on.

It's like a new extension of
print edition.

So it's like the the.

The source of all of this is me
doing artistic projects and you

know NFTs, or the crypto space,
is a new, exciting way to sell

your work and to be involved
with.

You know self sovereign type
people and, like you know, pro

self custody people.

But just because like something
is an NFT doesn't mean it like

changes your process as an
artist.

The art has to come from a,
from a true place.

That's not like what would make
a good NFT or something like

that.

What would make a good like for
photography is less true, right

, but I'm sure that has affected
a lot of artists.

Looking at PFP projects Now
their brain is like how can I

make 10,000 of something You
know?

for photographers, it's like.

It's like a little bit
different.

It's like what not like?

the kind of work that I do
doesn't honestly sell very well

as that is anyway.

So it doesn't.

It's.

It's a new, it's a new frontier
, that's for sure.

But you know what?

what helps you go through the
ups and downs of a market is

like.

You know, the market has been
like that since I started as a

photographer.

I remember there were like 10
different men's fashion

magazines that existed that all
did the same thing.

There was like Arena, gq I
forget the name of the rest And

like, when all that collapsed,
there was just one, that kind of

one that you could shoot for,
that remained, and I was like at

that time I was like, oh no,
how do I adapt to this failing

market?

Okay, and if these are the same
thing?

Oh, there used to be like all
these collectors are all this.

You know positive views of the
future and where this is going.

Finally, art is valued what it
actually at, the number it

should actually be at.

Okay, now that's kind of like
shrunken down.

Now there's just like one
person who believes that for

every 10.

So you know, market cycles are
true and NFTs are a new thing.

They don't replace another
thing, they're just an extension

into another world.

So when you've, like been
through this so many times, you

will see people that kind of
come out of nowhere and rise and

fall, but you will also,
equally so, see people that have

kind of been doing their own
thing for a really long time And

they've taken the time to
understand this technology, but

they haven't let it totally
consume the process that existed

before.

And that's why I think someone
like Sam Spratt, for example, is

so successful is because, you
know, he had a whole world of

work and an ethos and a style
before any of this existed.

But when it, when he did create
his own passion project, he

didn't just try to replicate
what he had already been

successful doing.

He really took a risk and built
something new that matched the

space and matched the technology
and was like like a new

personal project, something he
had never really done before.

So it was a mix of that kind of
like understanding where he had

come from but also seeing it as
a new frontier.

So that's my advice to artists
is like I don't really find

artists talking about the market
that interesting, right, it's

like like getting macro advice
right from you know, someone who

paints is like I don't really
care that there's someone who

specializes in those things or
like knows a lot about those

things, like I don't need to
hear people's hot take on every

fucking thing that's happening,
right.

I, for for for an artist, i
want to see what's their process

, how they do what they do, what
makes their work so incredible.

So what I found is the market
now.

I actually really like it
compared to the 2021 cycle,

because the people who are slow
and steady, who have kept their

heads down, really stand out.

So I'll give you an example
that has skulls and has one of

ones are like totally ripping
right now, like that's not a

mistake, right?

Other artists, like are like
still selling out.

What about ACK?

Right, it's like the market
cycle doesn't really affect

these people as much.

Or, you know, perhaps these
sales would have gotten lost in

all of the hype of 2021, and now
they're really really standing

out.

So, to be honest, i you know, i
love the volume of sales that

were happening a few years ago.

That's really nice, but I think
it's like a better time now and

it's a more realistic time.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's
the the, the point that I came

to arrive at myself at the end
of 2021 or even towards the, You

know, into 2022, it was kind of
like a slow decline through

2022.

It was still things happening,
but it was not peak euphoria.

And I just remember at one
point you know, obviously I was

working a full-time job at the
time, separate from this, And I

was just thinking like man, I am
exhausted.

Like, I am just it's like
there's so much shit going on.

I don't know what's true.

I don't know who I can trust.

Like you know, it was just so.

It was chaotic for the longest
time And it became like a part

of my identity.

Speaker 2: You know, it became
like a part of like and I think

like how, how, how, how so like
the way you were seen at work,

or what do you mean?

Were you the crazy the crazy
crypto guy at work.

Yeah, I was that guy, man.

That was all I had to talk
about.

Speaker 1: Like I neglected so
many other of my other life

responsibilities and like I mean
I would do them, but they would

just be check boxes.

I wouldn't be involved in them,
you know, and it was a very

unhealthy, like unsustainable,
like way to way to live, you

know.

And so how is that different
from now, though?

It's a lot different now,
because now there's not, now

that there's not as much
opportunity, like you said, it's

easier to find high signal
people, right, and like I see, i

see what you yeah, i agree,
i've been able to detach a lot

more and like get a personal
trainer and like go to the gym

four days a week, you know, and
like spend more time with my dog

and like go to a coffee shop
instead of in my dungeon, to

like do some work And just like
kind of like what you were, just

like the slow and steady
focusing on what I've been, what

I've been doing the entire time
, and plus being here full time

and being at a part of a part of
a team that allows me to do the

thing I'm like not only
passionate about, but that I'm

really good at, really helps,
and there's not many other

aspects of the business that I
have to focus on.

So it's it's a really big
blessing to be able to do that.

So it's part of it is, you know
, a result of putting my head

down and grinding when things
are up only, and you know, and

I'll, i'll go, i don't, i, i
will not rant about this on

Twitter, but, like, since this
is like a free flow and

conversation, like there was a
lot of complaints around like

artists not making money and
doing all this stuff, and it's

like I was in 2021, i was
massively in debt.

I had did not have enough money
to really collect the art that

I wanted to, and I was
interviewing artists that were

making life changing money,
while I was like not monetizing

the podcast, you know, and so
it's just like I understand the

struggle, but like, when things
are high, when things are low,

it was that I'm doing the same
thing regardless, on a weekly

basis, you know, weekend, week
out, same shit, like growing,

evolving, you know, doing my own
thing because I believe in the

importance of like there was,
you know, outside of Kevin Rose

when I came in, when I entered
in, there was not many people

that were doing podcasts, you
know, there was not many people

that were talking about talking
to artists and telling the

stories and documenting, and I I
believe so much in the

technology.

I'm like, holy fuck, like the
people who are like pioneering

this.

This is really important, this
is like an incredibly important

moment in history And I
genuinely believe that.

But no one's doing this And so
that's kind of like what kept me

going through that, you know
and that.

But again it, i got so excited
and so immersed in the culture

and the people and I made so
many friends here and it was

hard to not like let myself go a
little bit.

You know, i guess I definitely
did, but it can only last for so

long And I picked up a lot of
unhealthy habits along the way

And I think this period is a
great time to like undo that and

like reform some healthier
habits.

So when the mania inevitably
does come back, it's like okay,

maybe I don't deteriorate as
fast or maybe I like have some

awareness around what my
tendencies are or where I tend

to go, or like how long or how
insane I act around certain

catalyst, you know.

So yeah, that would say.

I would say that's the major
differences, that like actually

focusing on like what the fuck
I'm doing here and a little bit

of an external reward of, like
you know, coming on board with

the team I really admire.

Speaker 2: It's definitely helps
, you know it's okay to lose

your mind a little bit.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is, i
mean it is.

And so that actually is a great
line, because I know, you know,

i've heard Sam's story before
And I know you played a pretty

big part in whether it was a,
whether UV it is a big or small

part.

Like you played a part in him,
kind of like discovering this,

this vision of Lucy, and like
how did, how did like you help

him get to that spot, like what
was that story like?

Or what was?

Yeah, dude, that's always been
a story I've been curious about.

Speaker 2: No, that I mean,
that's 100% Sam's creation.

I can't sure.

I think I've just been a good
friend to him And also quite a

brutal friend, because when he
shows me things I know he's

capable of more.

I'll tell him that, as I told
you, everything he did is by his

own hand And it comes from a
true place of him.

You know, living in the
commercial world of being an

illustrator, but feeling that,
feeling inside of him that he's

capable of much more, and I
always believed in that.

But it would kind of never
happen, right?

He would never do his own
project or he would like even

the commercial work, though it
had such a personal touch that

kind of is personal work to me
right, like you could instantly

recognize his talent and his
work.

Oh, that's a Sam's rap painting
.

I think all I did was just be a
good friend, which is just.

You know, you know someone
who's not just like Oh this is

great, this is great all the
time, but it's like I know that

you could, like I've seen you do
things that you could pull from

that would benefit this work.

So you know, lucy, his creation
went through many renditions

and many versions and none of
them were good until the most

recent one, and he needed you
know someone, as the same way I

do for my work.

You need a ruthless friend that
can vibe check you, and I think

the better question would be
it's like you know how is Sam

involved in my work?

Well, he will tell me the
honest truth, which is like this

fucking sucks, or this is good,
or like one of Sam's quotes

it's like always sticks in my
head.

He's like Joey, you're playing
on easy mode.

Stop playing on easy mode.

Get out of my head.

So, just just things like that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it was always
very it's a very interesting

story And I know that you all
two are like incredibly close

And yeah, i think back to like
the people that I have

surrounding me and it's you know
, there's definitely a handful

of people that are just like,
okay, dude, that's a little nuts

, or like you're, you're not
doing that in the way that you

could, or whatever the case may
be.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i think the
other thing is it's like you

know you were talking about
something, how what really

resonated with me with what you
said, where it's like you felt

you know very weird and other
kind of social circumstances

because you had this all like
NFT kind of brain on and like

you couldn't connect well with
other like normal things.

You're saying So it's like
imagine two artists going

through that It was us and some
family members that we could

talk to, that were into this,
that into this stuff, and that's

it right.

So it's like we really
rediscovered our friendship that

had been lost because I had
moved away, right, i moved to

Ethiopia and I had like kind of
burnt my past, past connections

and just kind of like fucked off
and went far away.

And this whole thing really
rekindled our friendship in like

a very profound way And I think
like even just that is enough

to help each other's artwork.

Right, it's not like I can sit
there and know everything that

makes one of his paintings great
or not, but it is knowing of

like what someone who you truly
admire is capable of and being

the person that can like bring
that out in someone, bring out

someone's gifts, and know that
this is also an opportune moment

that's never going to come
again.

And like this, is God or
whoever telling you that like

this, this is it?

like a chance like this never
comes again?

This is the one that you read
about in history books that many

people say, fuck, i didn't do
that.

Like this is literally that
just don't do anything except

this right, And you need someone
that also listens to that,

because a lot of people have
heard that but have not have.

Not, it's too scary.

Have not gotten that.

Speaker 1: Very true.

I mean there's that quote from
I can't remember who it's like

the man that like stands in the
ring and gets hit and knocked

down, you know it's gonna.

It's this like thing of like
you know the person standing

outside of the ring and judging
it is never going to get as far

as the person who, even if they
get in and they fail and they

get knocked down like 13 times,
you know it's like that's the

person who's going to prevail
and proceed and move forward and

like learn about this and
really experience the gifts that

this thing has to offer.

You know.

Speaker 2: I remember when I did
my very first drop, what I was

amazed by were the like the
collectors who had gotten my

drop were like asking me about
the work in a way that I've just

never experienced before, like
people giving a shit like which

one did I get?

What is that Cause?

there's like a blind Dutch
auction, like tell me the story

behind this one, what's this?

I've like always done that,
that work right, but no one's

ever really like gave a shit
really, or as much as I have.

You know, i've been lucky and
very fortunate in my career but

it's like no one's asked me like
what's the story behind this

particular thing that I now own?

It's like it was a weird thing,
right, and that's something

that I think was and is
revolutionary and something

different.

Like I was telling some of my
friends like I've never

experienced this before.

Right, for all the years that
I've done this, i've never seen

this before.

That's why it's different.

Speaker 1: That goes back to
answering the question of like.

I guess and correct me if I'm
wrong, but that sounds like

that's probably where a lot of
the conviction lies is having

moments like that where people
get to like, actually connect

with it or, at least you know,
on a on the same, whether it's

made, whether the intensity is
there or not, it's the same.

It's the genuine curiosity of
like.

What went into this shot?

What were the emotions?

How does that make you feel?

Because, as a collector, i've
never I've never been able to do

that before with an artist,
like, going back to the

unprecedented time, it's like.

I think what people really miss
here is that the ability to

genuinely connect with an artist
.

This is something that has
never really happened before.

I think it's a bigger deal than
people give credit for, you

know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so experiences
that even the most rich people

in the past, like, tried to buy
for patron age systems and try

to, you know, be the big man of
their city, right, be the one

who's, like you know, paid for
all the art and developed it and

, like you know, collaborated
with the best artists of the

time.

There's like a whole history of
that, but it's never been this

easy or this direct before,
right, yeah, i think people

squander that opportunity but
they also kind of fuck it up

with like just being like an
absolute dickhead.

Speaker 1: you know where it's
like you get you're.

you're squandering one of the
only opportunities to get in

touch with an artist, to like
I've just seen stories of like

collectors trying to manipulate
control, do things like that,

and it's like you're literally
wasting one of those golden

opportunities to use them as
puppet.

you know what I mean?

Bug on the planet earth.

I know I know Humans are wild
man.

Yeah, we are funny, we're
really funny man.

I'm just thinking about dogs
and other like animals that like

they just do, they just They
just are.

you know, and we it's this like
never-ending journey to get to

that spot that dogs and animals
are just had, naturally.

you know right, it's
fascinating man.

I don't know where I was going
with that probably nowhere.

Speaker 2: But you're just
mentioning all the animals that

are in NFTs.

You know, there's a lot of like
apes, there's a lot of dog-os

that do this kind of thing, what
else?

So there's a lot of like long
neck, like canto long necks that

are like oh wait a minute, i'm
back in my NFT hole, right?

I?

Speaker 1: Mean my profile
pictures.

the dog, you know, a dog with a
microphone, So you know it's a

little adjective animal pictures
.

But, man, this has been fun.

I think we're gonna start like
wrapping it up here.

But Yeah, joey, thanks for like
coming on.

Like sharing your story, like
getting to know a little bit

more about your craft has been.

It's fun, man, that's just.

That's one of the another
reasons why I started this was

like we I see dope art on the
timeline.

It's like who the fucks person
who creates that?

and so I appreciate you like
coming on and sharing your time

with me today.

Speaker 2: Oh, i appreciate you
too.

It's been a really interesting
conversation And I also.

I really respect that.

Like the length of it's very
nice, because Sometimes

interviews are too short, you
don't get into anything.

What's has been very good.

Speaker 1: I Appreciate that's a
.

It's just a lot easier to like.

Let people be them, like if
you'll.

If you provide the space for
people to be themselves, they're

gonna be themselves.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i'm not exactly
the soundbite king.

It takes me a long time to get
my ideas across, so this is a

better format for me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah yeah, well
, i mean.

So I I've gone through a lot of
different places to find your

media.

Where do you want people like?

if people who, like, haven't
seen your work, like want to

discover it, like, where would
you recommend they go first?

Speaker 2: I think my Twitter
account is the most active and I

try to To post on Instagram,
but I just it's very hard to

open the app and look at it.

Speaker 1: It's like I'm very
bad vibes.

Speaker 2: So I haven't posted
on there for a few months.

My website is joey lcom and my
Twitter handle It's the same

spelled out Joey Ellen and
literally the OTCOM before dot e

things.

This is kind of a web to name.

I think that's that's the
easiest way over the years and

you can see what I'm posting my
work there.

I tried to like stay out of
most hot topics and just Keep my

feed full of art and other art
that I like, and that's it.

If you want to hear my takes
and then can tune into this

podcast, that's right Yeah
that's right, if you didn't sign

up for it.

If you just signed up for my
photos, that's where to go.

Speaker 1: Sick man speaking of
photos, speaking of, like,

upcoming Uh projects.

Is there anything that you can
share that that you're working

on?

Hmm?

Speaker 2: Well, so my book came
out the end of last year and

that's um 13 years of work from
Ethiopia.

You can get it on amazon and I
have been like kind of slowly,

you know, trickle releasing work
from that since I began NFTs.

My most recent drop was with uh
chi chi, with this uh monolith

luxury gallery.

There's just one piece left for
that and after that goes, i

think I'm going to Do something
completely new, something that,

like, i just need to use a lot
of these tools and explore my

creativity.

And of course, it'll still be
like photography, because that's

, you know where all this began.

But You know, i hear Sam
breathing down my neck.

Stop playing an easy mode.

So it'll be something in medium
or expert mode.

Speaker 1: I hope sick man.

Yeah Yeah, there's too many
tools to not like at least try

to fuck around with them.

You know, to not to play on the
meme.

It's like the intersect, you
know It's like the intersection

of like art, technology and
finance and it's like, if you

really kind of like think about
that, it's fun to like watch the

different ways in which people
can like Use like smart

contracts to like tell the story
better.

You know, like I think ack is a
great, does a great job of that

as well, absolutely.

Speaker 2: Yeah, perfect.

All those people inspire me a
lot, so I've been looking around

, sniffing around and just
feeling like There's a lot more

that I, that I could be doing.

Speaker 1: Fuck yeah.

Well, i'm excited, apparently,
if this is easy mode, like I'm

pretty stoked to like see what.

Medium and hard mode.

Looks like man.

Speaker 2: Yeah Well, let's,
let's see it.

to believe it, i don't know.

Let's see it.

Let's see it, let's see if I
can do it.

Speaker 1: Cool man.

This has been a treat and I
appreciate you like spending

your time here with me.

I truly appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for joining us on
another episode of the shiller

curated podcast.

We hope you enjoyed this
conversation.

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This is Boona signing off.