Speaker 1: GM.

This is Boone and you're
listening to the Schiller

Vaulted Podcast.

This episode was originally
recorded on January 28, 2021 and

features Jack Butcher, a
digital artist and founder of

Visualize Value, chex and OPEPEN
AI.

We dive directly into large
brands having their first go at

NFTs the concept of opportunity
in the digital age and the last

portion of the conversation is
entirely devoted to the concepts

of CC0 and social agreements,
or, as we like to call them here

, memes.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guest may own NFTs to
discuss.

Now join me as we dive deep and
get heady with Jack Butcher.

Speaker 2: Good afternoon, jack.

How are you?

I'm good man.

How are you?

I'm doing well, Just doing my
best to stay warm.

My dog this is the only
unfortunate time to have a dog

and not have a backyard at the
same time where I actually have

to get my ass outside and go
take a round of walk.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean similar
circumstances.

at the moment, few flights of
stairs down for the dog.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: What kind of dog do
you have?

He is a Jack Russell Beagle
cattle dog.

That's the speculation.

We don't know exactly, but he's
got all the behavioral

misgivings of each of those
three breeds.

He's nuts but he's great.

Sounds.

Rare.

Yeah, very rare, very rare.

Haven't seen any specimen like
him.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: I have a pharaoh like
an Egyptian pharaoh, a pharaoh

Han mix.

I have no clue what she's mixed
with, but again very similar.

I have not met such an
expressive dog, with this level

of intelligence and this much
energy.

Very cool man.

Speaker 3: I have to look it up.

I probably know it by sight,
but I don't know that breed by

you describing it.

But I'm looking up after this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man.

Well, man again.

I know we talked about this a
little bit offline.

I just want to thank you again
for coming on the podcast.

I've always enjoyed your
content and really think that we

can do something special here.

Really, i'm having me curious.

I'm not, and I actually didn't
tell you this, but actually how

I came into contact with you was
actually from one of your

additions piece with the
Afghanistan Relief Fund.

I had no idea who you were, but
I just saw someone retweeted it

and said you know, i got a
little eat despair, like I was

still very new and still just
trying to figure out what the

fuck's going on here, and that
was.

I got onboarded to mirror and
then I got onboarded to you.

It's been the rest of history.

Speaker 3: I'd ask man Well,
thank you for supporting that.

That's great, I appreciate that
.

Speaker 2: Yeah, dude, Now it's
cool initiative and really fell

in love with what you do here,
man.

So for you know, for, obviously
, obviously I know you.

But for those who don't know
you, man, give a quick plug to

yourself man, Who are you?

What do you do?

Speaker 3: Sure.

So I'm a designer by trade,
worked in marketing and

advertising for eight, nine
years, started my own agency in

2017.

So work with a couple of luxury
car brands One of my favorite,

like one of my personal passions
, interests, hobbies is cars and

got what I thought was the
dream client in a like big

exotic car brand and just got
totally burned out by the agency

life And I'd always been like
being being creative outside the

confines of, like, a corporate
environment was just something I

didn't imagine possible really
up until very recently.

So three years ago I started a
brand called Visualize Value.

Didn't actually begin as a
brand, it really was just like

scratching a creative itch in
public.

So Visualize Value began as this
just distillation of ideas that

had either been useful to me,
helpful for me I was going to

like spend more time trying to
understand And in going through

that process I would just turn
these ideas into visuals.

So try and take these complex
concepts and distill them into

something that would hopefully
translate them more easily for

other people.

Did that for probably a year or
so and just built that up as a

couple of social profiles So
Instagram, twitter and use that

to kind of continue working with
people one on one as a designer

and get some consulting jobs,
things like that.

And then it started to get to
the scale where I could think

about making products.

So I'd build a little design
school and then started playing

around with some merchandise and
then NFTs kind of.

There was a few people in the
community I'd built that just

started nagging at me like hey,
you need to look at this stuff

like NFTs and what you're doing.

There's so much overlap.

You have digital community.

You make art.

This is this new paradigm that
you should start looking into,

and that was, honestly, end of
2020 maybe.

So I was an idiot for not
paying attention to it when it

was initially brought to my
attention, because I could have

been buying crypto punks at 25
bucks a pop or something.

Speaker 2: Yeah, shit right.

Or minting it for free
completely.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but I was like,
okay, it's interesting.

I think I looked at open sea at
the time, or rareable, and I

was like, wow, this is kind of I
don't quite get this.

I'm not sure where to begin.

Another month or two goes by.

Same people hit me up again.

They're like, okay, you need to
pay attention.

This is beginning of 2021, and
then my focus has been on

exploring that space and making
more art and just building

relationships with people that
have been in that community for

a long time and are building the
technology and it's just kind

of overtaken my world,
essentially just all of my free

time and work time, and the two
blend into one at this point.

That's kind of where I'm at now
.

Speaker 2: I was going to ask
how is that?

because one of the questions I
had is the Visualized Value

brand does very well and it is
who you are and it's very strong

.

I just wondered, when you're
running that brand and you're

also running Web 3 art at the
same time, is there any mesh?

is there any friction with the
community that you do have, I

guess?

Walk Me Like What That Looks
Like or Feels Like.

Speaker 3: So there is, i think,
some tension more on a per

platform basis.

So Instagram and Twitter both
they near enough mirror the same

content, so the brand
broadcasts these ideas on

multiple platforms.

But I have much more of a
personal presence on Twitter.

So in parallel to Visualized
Value, i try and think out loud

and share what I'm working on,
how I'm thinking about certain

things, and I think that's made
for a because Web 3 NFTs, crypto

has been more of the
explanation I've been doing on

the personal side.

The community on Twitter and I
think just natively that's where

a huge amount, if not all, of
the NFT community interacts with

one another.

That it's been a very natural.

It's been very natural on
Twitter.

But every time I kind of lean
into it a little bit more on

Instagram I get, i wouldn't say
pushback to the extent that I

see some big brands go out and
just get absolutely torched for

this stuff.

But there's definitely less of
a warm reception for it and it

may even be just an education
gap which is on me to fix.

I think a lot of it is just.

It's so far from the zeitgeist
on that platform versus Twitter

that I've just lent more into
the community of people that are

more open minded and obviously
working on it every day, and I'm

quietly confident that
Instagram will catch up.

Speaker 2: Did you catch the
news today that Facebook and

Instagram are now exploring that
option?

Speaker 3: I did crazy.

It's, yeah, that's, I think
it's.

There's a lot of different ways
to digest and react to that

news, one being the I think I
saw this response that compared

it to the DM launch.

Do you remember when they were
trying to launch a currency?

Speaker 2: Uh-uh Facebook, maybe
two years ago, vaguely, but I

remember knowing that they did,
but not anything about it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, well they.

They proposed that they were
going to launch their own

stablecoin, i assume, and
instantly they got swarmed by

regulatory agencies you know,
three letter acronyms from

wherever branches of the
government and I think, while

this announcement is potentially
you know, is potentially an

on-ramp, for a lot of people,
it's also like this is a it's

kind of a crazy market to just
drop on like billions of people

that are just going about their
business, talking about their,

you know, sports teams and
whatever it is people talk about

on Facebook and Instagram most
of the time.

I think it's going to be
fascinating to watch it play out

, and maybe I'm wrong and people
will just like instantly sort

of adopt it.

But all of these big, all these
big platforms, i just think,

are probably seeing the volume
of trade that's happening and

just like, oh my God, we need to
figure our way to get involved

in this somehow, and some will
do it well and others probably

will do it less well, but I
wouldn't bet against Facebook.

Unfortunately, i don't think.

Yeah, they got the resources to
pull it off.

Speaker 2: It's.

They got a bunch of fucking
money to just like throw it at a

wall and you know it's.

You know as much as as strong
as my opinion is of Mark, it's

hard to bet against him For sure
.

Speaker 3: It's an interesting
bounce.

I have a theory that Mark
Zuckerberg is probably one of

the most followed anonymous
influences on on Twitter.

I bet he's playing the playing
the game.

I have no idea who, but I got a
feeling he's on there lurking.

Speaker 2: Well, with his meta
announcement he I mean it was

you you almost kind of got.

I at least I drew that
conclusion from the language

that he was using and the
terminology he was using.

I said he's you know, i don't
think this was reported to him.

You know, i think this was
something that he's you know.

I don't think he fully gets it,
but I think he gets it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, he's down the
rabbit hole for sure.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, talking
about brands entering in, you

know, and I think it's, it's
been very fun to watch when it

comes to brands, approaches to
coming in, i've seen some that

I've made me very like.

I'm like okay, cool That's,
that's an interesting way to

come in And that that doesn't
make me feel threatened you know

, that doesn't threaten the
environment that we have here.

And then I've seen some where
it's just like holy shit, dude.

You know I have some patients
participate like figure out the

culture, you know, before you
just come in and say GM, because

as simple as those two, two
letters are together, there's a

lot of power behind that.

There's a lot of, there's a lot
of emotion, a lot of culture

behind that.

So I want to get your take.

You know what's been what's
been like your least favorite

entrance of the space and what's
been your most favorite.

Speaker 3: I think the I mean,
depending on what you're

classifying as an entrance, i
will go with the Walmart

metaverse.

whatever that thing was this
week, obviously a massive miss

like just in terms of a product
that you can imagine anybody

ever using.

I wouldn't imagine that that
that takes off.

Honestly, like this, it's
perfectly fine to buy your

groceries on a 2D webpage And I
think they probably their

margins would agree with that as
well.

Like none of that stuff is
necessary.

And then I think a lot of the
more natural fits are fashion,

anything that has much more of a
like emotional, i mean, people

have an emotional attachment to
Walmart.

They're just very different
emotions, right.

So survival and security and
like let's go and get what we

need to stay alive.

It's not like I must have this.

You know Italian, italian
handmade version of this thing

that I'm going to wear.

So I think the there's been a
few good examples, obviously at

scale, at Eddidas doing the like
.

Collaboration with existing
projects is more elegant than

just busting in kicking the door
down, and I think majority of

them come in through
collaborations, as a project

called crypto jankies by a
company called Super Plastic.

Like have been making toys for
probably 10 years and you know

street culture and have had a
bunch of people collecting their

stuff already And I think, just
as a general rule, brands and

artists and communities that had
like support behind some

artistic or creative thing
before this came about.

Yeah, just feels like a more
natural.

In the same way I was
describing like people tapping

me on the shoulder and being
like, hey, you should get

involved in this world.

I think the brands that know
that they're like already kind

of playing in an adjacent world
and come in without feeling like

they're just performing cash
grab.

Change your profile picture two
days before, right.

And throw the link up and then
disappear forever, and I think

that's a case of like having
creative people as the

leadership of these businesses
as well, like you have to really

have quite an expansive
imagination to plan beyond the

first, like the first iteration
in your entrance to the space.

So this is like an infinite
canvas And for a lot of people

that's like incredibly
intimidating and like often

unnecessary, but for other
brands, especially creative,

like creatively led brands, it's
a massive like new, like a

completely new environment for
them to build relationships with

the people that love their
stuff.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, i 100%.

And that was I didn't say it as
elegantly as you did in the

beginning.

You know it was a lot of it was
a lot of like when I, when I,

when I got it, i got it And I
remember feeling a certain type

of way And I remember feeling
how massive this was And I

remember feeling, i guess, like
what you were mentioning, like

the infinity, like the infinity
landscape, but I but I couldn't

quite understand how to like put
that into words in the

beginning.

It was kind of just like me
just vomiting out a bunch of

passion with a bunch of shit
that didn't make sense to

someone who wasn't just as
passionate about it.

Because I come from the gaming
world.

You know I'm a huge gamer.

You know Halo fan through and
through, it's been my, it was my

childhood, is what I grew up on
, you know, and I was actually

my podcast was on before I
switched over to Web three.

I found that I couldn't stop
talking about this shit, so I

just started damning Web three
creators versus these sports

creators, you know.

But I, but I, one of the
challenges that I I see is

something that, like I've
there's been sometimes where I

succeeded in some, some areas
are just completely failed.

When it comes to onboarding
people, like I think my, my take

is at the individual level.

It's so much easier when you
have a personal connection with

that, but you had mentioned
earlier you're, like you know,

on the Instagram gap of
knowledge, where it was, like

you know, that's my job to
educate people.

Like I find this very
challenging problem when it

comes to onboarding people on a
on a large scale because, like,

i feel like this is such we're
in it when a very the mean is

we're sorry, my dog.

The mean is we're early, and so
there's a certain type of

person that can really
understand what's going on here

We're we're getting that
threshold where people are

starting to get curious but they
have nowhere to go.

So I'm just curious of like
your take, of like I guess some

like theories or like some thing
you know, just some things that

you thought about, not ideas to
apply that you know, and who's

really responsible for that.

Speaker 3: You know, as you
describe, like the different

platforms.

This is not something that I've
put into words before, but the

idea that the type of person
that one is on Twitter but two

is following visualized value on
Twitter specifically is, i

think, you know, in pursuit of
knowledge.

You kind of opted in to a
certain like psychographic I

guess, and you know that's
somewhat true on Instagram, but

it's maybe more lifestyle
focused.

So I think, like, the first
piece of the question is, like,

by consuming a certain type of
content from a certain type like

from a certain set of people,
like, it makes total sense to me

why Twitter has been the place
where you know people who are

interested in technology, or
writing about technology or

gaming or like anything that's
adjacent to this world is really

remarkable how huge of a
percentage of these people have

completely shifted their focus.

And what's interesting is I
think it's almost like a blank

slate to the, to the infinite
canvas point it's.

I see more people use web three
as kind of shorthand for, or it

encompasses a lot of different
things versus like in a paradigm

.

Maybe six, 12 months ago,
people were trying to be really

really specific about the one
thing they did in this.

You know, we call it the
creator economy or something

else.

And I think this whole like,
this open market, has made

people a lot more open minded
And obviously there's a

component of being able to
capture some of the upside of

this thing as it grows, without
digging your heels in very

specifically on one team or one
product or so.

There's that's kind of like the
.

I think the optimistic way to
look at this, the speculation

side of it too, is like people
know in their gut or there's

some instinctual thing where
it's like this is a huge thing,

I want to be involved in it.

I don't know exactly how or why
or what my involvement is going

to be just yet, but I want to
be near it.

And then I think, the larger
conversation of like who is

responsible for shaping it?

it's like the, this battle
between and I think the lines

are blurred like the battle
between open, like in inverted

commerce for nobody watching the
video like there's the open

metaverse versus the meta ink
metaverse, and I think the

difference is really it's like
the nuances of ownership of

digital property, which I think
is the barrier for a lot of

people.

So it makes sense that a large
segment of people who play games

get it.

People who are, like, spending
thousands of dollars on their

credit card, like playing games
every month, like I mean and

this is not a black and white
thing either, because there's

people that fall on both sides
of that issue too, right, some?

people are like okay, yeah, I
want to be like, I want to be

attached to the value of this
thing as it grows.

Other people like I want to
like pay the people to build the

game and I want to enjoy the
game.

And you know, neither of those
people are right and wrong.

That's an opinion, But I think
the the optionality of it is

like what the market is going to
end up deciding.

And we're not anywhere near
like consumer adoption scale at

this point And we know that,
like, even the tools we have now

are kind of crumbling under the
pressure of a couple hundred

thousand people using them And
like Facebook is, you know, a

completely different beast
infrastructure wise, like you

know, if they're going to build
something is going to be able to

serve a billion people
simultaneously from day one,

which is a very different
environment In frictionless I

think,
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you know they've already
have the, they've got

distribution, everybody's
already on board, they're all

signed up, etc.

Etc.

So I, like I am definitely an
idealist and an optimist, But I

I see it as there's going to be,
like this niche carve out of

people participating in the like
open version of this thing.

If that makes sense.

It's like the open source
development community versus,

you know, people who are working
for you know, the top

technology firms, like there are
pros, cons, tradeoffs to both

of those.

Sure, i think, i think Twitter
is like one of the last, one of

the last, like I say one of the
last, i think it's the only one,

maybe it has has been the only
one ever.

Like this open network feature
of Twitter has really, like I

think, been responsible for the
growth of an economy like this

in the first place.

I think without Twitter, i
don't know how NFTs, the Web

three narrative, takes off to
the extent that it has, and I

think it's like continued
existence depends upon, like

Twitter, keeping that openness
accessible right.

Yeah yeah, facebook is a very
different style of social graph

where you're connected, largely
like if I logged into my

Facebook account now, i'm going
to see updates from like kids.

I went to school with like kids
who I worked with when I was in

my early 20s, people who I
don't necessarily share

interests with, and I know they
did a lot of work on that,

building groups and things of
that nature.

But I think for most people
Facebook is like it's really

like an extended personal
network thing versus Twitter.

That is this just like complete
cross pollination of networks

ideas.

It's a knowledge, a social
graph built around knowledge and

interests, versus a social
graph built around geography.

Yeah, you know, we grew up and
where you happen to like go to

work after school, things of
that nature.

I think some people probably
use Facebook differently than

that.

For the vast majority, that's
how it works And I wonder how a

economy like the flourishing NFT
economy and Web three economy

we've seen via Twitter, based on
how the network functions, is

going to be a challenge for
Facebook, in my opinion.

Yeah, maybe Instagram breaks
that a little bit, but it's.

It really doesn't have the same
sense of community and you can't

sure, can't build relationships
on Instagram or Facebook like

you can on Twitter.

Like the only reason we're
having this conversation is

because of Twitter.

And had you reached out on
Instagram?

I don't even look at messages
on Instagram.

I don't log into Instagram but
don't use it like.

I just don't expect to have the
level of engagement and you

can't you can't, sort of you
can't gauge what someone is

about really through Instagram
unless they have.

I mean it's, yes, very
interesting.

I think you get a much better
sense of who someone is and how

they think from their Twitter
feed than any other digital

profile or presence, and that's
a massive advantage and that's

helped this ecosystem grow And I
think not taking that into

account and Facebook just hasn't
been able to replicate that or

compete with that, And that's a
huge boon to this environment

and hopefully stays that way.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i mean, that's
the way I've viewed it.

I've had this upon the same
thought that you've had, where I

just like if Twitter, because I
look at all the places where

Web three really and what we're
calling Web three really exists.

It's Twitter, discord and
Reddit, you know, and those are

like the three largest.

But but I also I separate
Twitter from the rest of those

two because Twitter, in my
opinion, is the diving board.

You know, twitter is like yeah,
it's, it's the information

highway, it's the diving board,
it's where you can go get a

quick snippet of something
valuable that peaks your

interest.

Then you can go dive into a
community.

Then you can go dive into a
thread or a forum or not.

That Twitter doesn't have it
And that is very unique in in

its own sense, where you can do
that openly.

But what I've, what I've told
some people new, it's

unfortunately like.

I mean, i like this court.

It's the best we have right now
, but it's still very

ineffective when it comes to
just keeping everything

organized.

But that's the best place where
I've gone to like get more

information and have a
conversation and get to know

some of these people on a more
intimate level, when they're not

trying to flex their, you know,
flex publicly, you know, yeah,

yeah.

And so something that I wanted
to, something that you were, you

were talking about, that I
wanted to dive into, is actually

something.

Actually I take that back.

This is a random thought that I
had, because I I get conflicted

from being almost like a
steward or a contributor or like

taking responsibility of
building, you know, this new

ecosystem, this open economy
you're talking about.

But also I can put my hat on as
a consumer and say like damn,

from a consumer perspective,
that would be really cool.

And there's two.

There's two areas that I found
very conflicted in my feelings

versus, you know, on one versus
the other.

And we've been talking about
Facebook, when I hop over to

Nike and the acquisition of art.

You know, artifact.

From a consumer perspective, i
cannot wait to buy almost every

product that they collab with.

I think that is going to be one
of the coolest like and I can't

call it a partnership because
they own artifact, but one of

the some of the coolest, most
innovative products that are

going to come on the consumer
side in the next five to 10

years.

But from you know, someone
who's actively participating in

building the community, i also
look at as, like damn, Nike kind

of just came in and just now
they own this person.

What happens to the creative
control and the vision of

artifact now that they're owned
by a massive brand?

And I wanted to get your take
on that because for me I felt

very conflicted, like I support
it, but I also am very nervous

about it versus the way Adidas
came in.

Adidas came in and they bought
an ape, they bought our bags,

you know they, they participated
, they partnered with G money,

they partnered, you know like
there's a lot more partnership

elements to it And I don't know
what's right or wrong And I

think we'll we'll see that play
out in the next couple of years.

But I just wanted to get your
understand how you felt about

either one of those, because
those are the two that sparked

my interest.

Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it's a
good.

It's a good comparison, i think
, like they're, though I think

the interesting thing that gives
like, in a way, nike is Nike is

definitely supporting the
ecosystem because, like Hanfler

brands, i think they are on that
level just in terms of their

like, cultural Clout.

You know, like the, the top
fashion brands in the world.

Obviously, you'd count Nike
among them and Adidas as well.

I think Nike's profile is
probably what 5x and Adidas 10x,

maybe so like it makes sense
that they'll make a bigger move

Then and that, like we're not
gonna come in and do like a

collaborative project, we're
gonna come in and like define

the space.

Yep, and I think to your point
like a Lot of a lot of what they

do in the real world is It's
not dissimilar like this culture

of like limited run product and
like people like staying up all

night to, yeah, the one of 250
pairs and then, yeah, list it on

the stock X site and all that's
yeah, so there's some like.

There's some real, like legit
overlap where you kind of I

think it was so well received
Universally, it's like, yeah,

just makes a hundred like makes
total sense.

And I think from the
perspective of the founders I

have no idea What what the terms
of the deal were I'm sure they

did very, very, very well.

Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.

Speaker 3: Yeah, i think that.

Yeah, I think that is like a
Pervasive dynamic that is not

going away.

Like, can people, you know,
your one year or 18 months or

two, i think they, i think the
founder tweeted about I think

they were like nine months or 12
months into building the

business and that you get an
Acquisition offer from Nike?

It's like insane.

Every person behind this stuff
has, like Families and, like you

know, ambitions of their own,
dreams and things like things

that they want to take care of
in their life, and I think that

dynamic always exists and
they'll be, i'm sure.

I'm sure they like spend a lot
of time thinking about it, but

it's also I can no brain, or on
both sides.

Yeah, one thing I think is great
in that context.

It's like Nike kind of lives or
dies by how it treats like,

like it's.

It's valued on how cool it is.

Essentially, and.

Yeah, that to me is like they
are accountable to the market in

that way already, so I don't
see it as a threat.

In the same way, i would like a
Facebook come in to try and own

the rails, like they're coming
to contribute to the culture and

make stuff.

I Haven't given it a ton of
thought, but that's my initial

reaction is like both approaches
, i think, are solid and I think

, in terms of like onboarding
and getting people into the

space that are probably gonna be
like ravenous fans and

participants, like street wear
and fashion and Yep, you know

people, like people that
interact with and love brands

that already have this, like
scarce component and design

component and like taste as a,
as a huge part of, like your,

the whole hype beast movement,
right, like your right ability

to Put a fit together and
collect this series of these,

just such a natural It's such a
natural thing that, yeah, i

think it's, i think it made
sense for everyone involved and

I think it will probably
accelerate, like Bringing and

legitimizing it in a way that I
think, like it doesn't feel as

As dystopian as a Facebook
comment and being like, hey,

you're gonna have to like you
haven't got enough credits to Do

X today, right, yeah, that is a
I like your take on that cuz,

like it, cuz we.

Speaker 2: What's.

What's funny is I've also not
funny, but like I've also

listened to a few of your you
know podcasts on like not invest

, on the not investment advice
podcast, and you all have talked

about you know the definition
of web 3 and like what, what the

hell even is web 3?

and I think The reason why it
struck me so much is because

we've all created a lot of like
Really deep sideways narratives

But it may not be what actually
plays out, and so it's just like

I feel like the community has
created A bunch of definitions,

a bunch of narratives, a bunch
of ideas that like what this

could be, but then the market
comes in.

If we're truly embracing one of
the narratives of like this is

open for everybody, then that
means brands too, and Nike comes

in and does this and it kind of
like For me it shook it.

It shook that That narrative
that we were building, it's like

okay, well, maybe that's not
true, maybe that's not how this

is, you know.

Speaker 3: It was very
disruptive.

Yeah, i think that's fair.

I think that's fair and I think
it's like the History doesn't

repeat itself but it rhymes
right.

It's like, yeah, if a, a
Company that essentially Was

born out of like some subculture
, like Nike originally, is maybe

like Run, like, i think,
athletics, and running, like the

culture of that book, like
birth Nike, then it became this

huge beast that stands for,
probably, like you know, the,

the most synonymous Symbol for
like sport, competition, right,

right, fashion, all this, all
these things that you think of

when you see the swoosh.

There's always like subcultures
ahead of this stuff, and I think

the way I think about it is You
could kind of choose to be as a

participant, you can choose to
be at the edge, or you can like

fold into the mainstream of it,
as As the, the brands like a

Nike enter, or Who are you?

You know, i think it's like The
mainstream of it as as the, the

brands like a Nike enter or
Whoever else.

But there's always gonna be
this area out to the edge of the

ecosystem, where like brands
aren't gonna touch for another

five years And you have the
option to like live on that side

.

But I think that's where, like
we get the double-edged sword of

like yeah, web three is a great
, it was an.

It's an amazing way to like
Falk off the crypto narrative,

because a lot of people don't
right want to be associated with

crypto or they've been
frustrated that they haven't

Understood the crypto narrative
for so long.

Web three like softens that up
and talks about culture and yeah

.

I think it brought a lot of
other people in yeah, exactly,

but it also it can be
challenging how How broader is,

because you don't really know
what you're talking about within

that, and Yeah the world is.

Everything is super nuanced and
I think, In the same way that

people like this, this
technology is gonna be so

ubiquitous that it's gonna look
kind of silly in hindsight when

we say like I can't believe like
Nike became part of the

internet.

You know right.

And if he's as a piece of
infrastructure, like is such a

primitive, a primitive, a new
digital primitive that probably

most like commercial entities of
a certain scale are gonna adopt

in some way shape or form, and
I think it like Culture-wise,

there really is the like.

I mean, i think mainstream NFT
culture is Twitter right now and

I don't even I'm not even Not
even sure like You really have

to mess up to like at the moment
is pretty forgiving environment

where there's like a ton of You
know, poorly executed projects

that get like folded in and get
forgiven at early days, etc.

Etc.

But my, yeah, my larger point,
i guess, is like the, if you

want to be at the edge of the
culture, that's, you can do that

.

You can like stay away from
this stuff and go out further

from the, the main narrative.

But I think it's comforting for
people as well that are over

Overinvested by a lot, shall we
say, and the legitimization of

brands like that coming in, even
if you're not in those projects

specifically.

It's kind of a Comforting thing
to have your belief in this

stuff be reaffirmed by, you know
, companies that have to labor

over these decisions and have a
lot of you know a lot, of, a lot

of skin in the game and Yeah,
so there's, there's two sides.

Every story, i guess, is the
long-winded answer to it.

That's what we're here for is a
long-winded answer.

Speaker 2: You know?

yes, Because you brought up an
interesting point about like.

I think, I've always been a fan
of the edge.

You know I've never been very
public about being on the edge,

but secret like, it's almost
like one of those things where,

as I grow as a human, as
individual, and start learning

what I like more and who I am,
you know, the edge has always

been something that is very much
excited me, like even when, you

know, the iPhone first came out
, i was probably 14, you know,

13, 14 years old and I remember
I make a very strong impression

of the iPhone And I remember I
Make a very strong analogy.

But it's almost like, you know,
people remember exactly what

they did on 9-11.

It was like that was me when
the iPhone came out, like I

remember exactly how I felt, wow
.

I remember exactly how, like
the, when Steve Jobs pulled that

shit out of his pocket and he
in the pauses and how

revolutionary That really was.

I just remember seeing How big
that was.

And Very similarly, i think it
was on your podcast where you

mentioned, like I knew that this
was something that was going to

change the world But yet we
didn't understand the

applications.

One of my favorite references
that y'all talked about was the

Mac being advertised And like
the most revolutionary

technology was that you were
going to store your recipe books

in there, and that made me
Right, right right that made me

chuckle, because that was how I
felt with the iPhone and I'm

like I don't even know what the
applications of this are going

to be.

But this there's nothing like
this That's even remotely close

to what Apple just came out with
.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great.

I think that's a.

That's a good Callback to the
last part of the conversation,

where it's like people just know
in their gut that this is a

different Set of ingredients
with which, like very, very

different things are Just like
behaviors that you would never

predict, products that you would
never think would be built like

.

We're like very near sighted
creatures.

For the most part, even those
of us that are like doing this

for a living and like looking at
it every day was still, you

know, spending eight hours a day
reading people's like price

predictions or talking about
like which projects coming out

tomorrow?

Yeah, and if you really zoom out
, it's like It's.

It's about so much more than
that and the potential of it is

so much greater than You know
what's being executed in the

near term.

And you know, i think we long
for like the simplicity of

narrative, or it's like which
You know which crypto is going

to be the crypto and all of them
like we've talked about this on

the other podcast.

Well, it's like we're way past
that like right, like we're in

such a Fractionalized, like
fast-paced, networked world that

I don't think like Like a
Return to simplicity is In.

When it comes like media and
software doesn't feel like the

trend to me.

Like I can see why that works
with hardware like the iPhone,

the You know the manufacturing
Economies of scale that come

with making that beautiful
device and the network effects

within it makes sense.

But when it comes to like
Building digital products and

art and it's just like an
explosion of creativity and and

trying to like pick one horse
right now to bet on Yep, it

seems like a little foolish
behavior.

When you can just be Absorbing
all of it and have exposure to

all of it's fun time to be alive
, for sure unless you're Michael

Saylor, we all know yeah, where
you stand.

Yeah, yeah, sailor man Man it's.

You know what.

It's funny.

Like a year or so, 18 months
ago I mean, you listen to the

podcast too like It's such a
seductive narrative too.

It's like it really is like
logically sound.

You're like, wow, yeah, yeah,
this makes total sense.

And then you go about your day
And I like all of the principles

that I just heard, none of them
are like In effect, in this

environment I'm spending my time
in, yeah, and I think it has a

lot to do with the fact that
we've like built this economy

that is not constrained by a lot
of the things that he's

speaking about, and Maybe my
understanding monetary policy is

too rudimentary to see.

Like, yeah, maybe the music does
stop if the way money is

distributed Changes.

But you're a video game guy and
this is more akin to that world

, i think, than anything else,
where it's like people are gonna

build and design games, recruit
players.

Like you know, we've forked off
into this environment where we

don't really have to pay
attention to reality in a lot of

way like, yeah, atomic reality,
let's say yeah.

Yeah it's a very it's and that's
a hard thing to get your head

around, especially if you know,
depending on your exposure to

technology and like, yeah, it's
just a really fascinating thing

where you think about what are
the things that led you to the

place you are now And more often
than not, i could like look at

someone's background and be like
that person's gonna take a

little bit longer to understand
this than that person, through

no fault of their own, just
based on like the neurons that

have been lit up in their brain
over the past 10 years.

Like some of this is just way
too far of a jump for some

people to get.

And then, like, there are
exceptions to the rule as well.

I have one good analogy of a.

I had lunch with a real estate
guy maybe six months ago now,

and I was trying to explain the
difference between Bitcoin and

Ethereum to him And he's got it
instantly because of his like

way he thinks about real estate.

Like, okay, this is scarce, you
can build utility on top of this

.

But yeah, this has like you
know, this neighborhood is more

attractive than that
neighborhood because you know

this person lives there.

And it's just like depends a
lot on what you've experienced

and how you think and your
career and all like.

It makes total sense to me that
you know people, kids, who are

grinding out World of Warcraft
for 15 years are now like the

biggest players in the digital
currency world.

It's absolutely nuts to look
back and think that, but when

you're looking at it from where
we are now, you're like, okay,

it makes total logical sense.

And then we're in 15 years from
now, we're gonna have some

similarly well, probably a
hundred times more ridiculous

thing to be talking about.

Speaker 2: Exactly And you know,
funny you mentioned wow.

I'm gonna sidestep this for a
little bit.

You know, I don't think we
would be having the conversation

on NFTs if wow didn't exist,
because we all know our loving

Lord and Savior, Vitalik, was a
wow player and this Ethereum was

actually.

I'm not gonna credit it all to
wow, but it was one of the main

things that birthed his like
creative spark to create

Ethereum.

Yeah, I think that's the
funniest shit ever.

Speaker 3: You should control.

It's hilarious, it's hilarious
And it's also like it's so

counterculture as well, where
you know don't sit around and

play video games while you're a
kid, it's no good for you Right

Now, like that.

You know that advice was
obviously terrible advice for

majority of people at this point
in time where it's like, if

you're able to navigate the
internet and not even navigate

the internet, if you're able to,
like, understand the rules of,

like a virtual game that's how a
lot of like the economy

operates at this point And you
actually have the upper hand

over people that are kind of
stuck on rules that no longer

apply.

That they probably learned in
environments that were less

malleable, infinite, whatever
synonyms you wanna place in

there.

Well, and it was also a fear
driven culture too.

Speaker 2: Because you know this
is a fascinating topic, because

you know that narrative was
told to me by my parents and

there was always a lot of
comfort and there was always a

lot of conflict.

You know in our household
around gaming and what, how

valuable it was and what I could
be doing more.

Because you look at a couple of
generations ago, you know their

whole thing was, you know, go
to school, get a job.

You know like that's how you
like make it in this world.

The dollar was, of course,
positioned very differently,

different than as well, and to
them that may sense video games

were something that nerds did in
the basement.

You know when they were a
complete waste of time, it was a

hobby, it was a pastime.

And so you look at a whole
generation of people that have

already quote unquote made it or
are secure in their own way.

You know the evolution of video
games is a complete just not

even.

Not even what we're talking
about, but video games in

general is a completely new
concept that, like man, it feels

like a waste of time.

We never did that.

Go get a job, go get a career,
go to college, go do this, not

like man, explore your
creativity, explore your passion

, explore this.

It just.

It was a narrative that always
caused so much conflict with me

and my family, and I'm the only
child, so I was the only one to

have that conflict.

Man, it sucked.

Speaker 3: Well, yeah, yeah,
yeah, that does.

I yeah, I think it's again, it's
like a fundamental and even as

a kid you don't you can't see
the internet coming down the

bike either.

So there's some logic to it as
well.

It's like, yeah, you know what,
what's the likelihood?

I'm gonna get one of a hundred
jobs at Ubisoft or whatever,

versus now, like you know what's
the likelihood, i could like

become part of a community that
is building GameX or has

exposure to the growth of GameX,
or even like streaming, playing

games on YouTube.

It's not something that anybody
10 years ago would have thought

people were pulling down six,
seven figures doing, and that's

like.

I don't know what the
statistics are, but I think

that's an enormous part of
YouTube's content.

right, it's just people playing
, streaming, watching, tipping,

it's just.

it's an economy unto itself,
and I think that idea of the

internet, attention, ownership,
all of these things converge And

we're at like a you know a set
of new primitives that are gonna

change the way the next 10, 15,
20 years plays out.

Sure.

Speaker 2: I 100% agree.

And, speaking of, you know
ownership and some narratives.

I know you're big on the CCO,
you know the Creative Commons

license, like you know you're a
LavaLads fan, you're a Nouns fan

, you know, and you know I
bought actually quite a few of

your products from the CCO
partnership.

I guess I don't know if you
could call it a partnership, but

just I guess it's the CCO.

Speaker 3: Permissionless baby,
yeah man.

Speaker 2: So I guess, like I
wanted to, like I wanted to

touch on that man cause, like
that's a huge part of from what

I see from you on Twitter
outside of like the words, as

memes you know, like the.

CCO narrative is something you
really enjoy.

And I don't know, man, i'm just
fascinated, like, i'm just like

curious to get to like
understand what you're cause

like I'll throw some context
around is that like I you know,

i've interviewed Kath Samard on
here, who was the first

photographer to put her mint,
one of her most stolen pieces of

work, as an NFT, including
Creative Commons license that

G-Money bought, and that was
that broke the internet.

You know that was such a wild,
it sparked so much conversation.

She got love, she got hate, she
got it was very disruptive

Cause, like, what the fuck does
Creative Commons actually mean

in web three, in NFTs?

And so I know that you've, like
I said, i have my noun Beanie, i

have the noun had, i have.

You know, i love the nouns And
it's a great for me, it's a

great way to have access to
nouns without having 165

Ethereum to pay for a noun, you
know.

So I guess, how does the CCO
like what do you see is like a

good path for CCO versus like
maybe you shouldn't do that,

maybe you should just stick to
exclusive ownership, maybe you?

you know what I mean.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, good,
great question.

So I think I think we're still
at a point in time where, like

it's more beneficial in the
short term for some projects

than others And, honestly, in
most cases, like you're going to

give up some momentum in the
short term, because I say

momentum like you're going to
share momentum with a lot of

people in the short term in the
case of nouns like they could

have sold their own merch right.

So by me, by me forking some of
nouns IP into this, you know a

couple of lines of hats and
there's like some market demand

for that.

People buy them and those are
probably hats that then people

aren't going to buy from nouns.

But the longer term play is
that is you know, 400 people

from my network are wearing
those things around, getting the

nod from the person in the
coffee shop Like oh, what's that

thing?

I've seen it before, i've seen,
and what you're doing is you're

like seeding network effect in
a lot of different places.

You're playing the long game.

Essentially, i think what it
really has to do with is how

memeable the thing is, and nouns
are a great example.

Like those nouns glasses
they're up there with, like Nike

swoosh level, recognizability
and compression of a message

Like you see those.

You see one like you know just
that, like really really simple

vector graphic of the glasses
And you think of the whole

project.

You think of CCO.

I personally think of four on
five, six, yeah, grand plan.

Like the art team that worked
on that project, like it packs

so much in versus a photograph
which you know you have to be.

The applications for that are a
little different and it's

harder for it to spread.

I think glasses are another
great example, because you can

you've seen derivative projects
that take the glasses and put

them on another profile picture
collection, for example.

So something about like these
things that can be attached to

identity, that have this inherit
network effect.

I've thought about CCO in the
context of visualized value.

I don't think it makes as much
sense.

I think it could work.

There's definitely merit to hey
people you know, education

institutions, you know maybe
some people want to make

T-shirts out of these things.

But a little bit more nuance is
not like your, it's not like

that single symbol that packs so
much meaning in And I think the

value really dissipates from
visualized value in the short

term because the control of the
brand is really like.

I think the how refined the
message is is so tied to the

value of the brand.

Like if you open source things
that can dilute brand value,

then you're really playing a
little bit of a tricky game.

I think nouns is honestly,
because this is the one example

I always reference.

It's kind of there's some bias
there too, because there could

be other.

It's a really fascinating
question because there's so many

things that are tied together,
like is it successful because

it's CCO Or is CCO successful in
the context of that project

Because it's so like visually
recognizable and like the

applications for those symbols
are.

Like I said, any profile
picture on Twitter can take

nouns glasses and throw them on
Godwizer.

I don't know if you saw that
yesterday.

Speaker 2: I was just gonna
bring that up, yep, yep.

Speaker 3: Great example of you
know how they're extending the

meme and there's just something
really powerful about it And I

think people that have seen
crypto grow over the last 10

years or so And I think the
people involved in that project

are like crypto OGs And that has
a really.

I think that has an effect on
how they think about yep,

property, digital ownership,
things And the value can still

accrue to the original, like if
you have attribution, the NFT

that was minted on X date,
transferred to X person's wallet

you go.

This is where the argument of
the I can download the image

just falls apart is like by
downloading the image, you're

increasing the network effect of
this thing.

That's right.

You're increasing the value of
being attached to it And I think

, because it's a, until you have
skin in the game and until

you've participated in the
market, you really it's

impossible to understand that
that thing has value.

It just doesn't make any sense.

But it has value because it's
connected to this address and

this social contract between
these 300 people that

collectively have hundreds of
millions of dollars invested in

the project makes it valuable in
the same way that, like a lot

of human narratives and
agreements and groups and things

that we've come up with
collectively over the past,

however many thousand years, are
valuable to some people and

completely worthless to others.

And, like I try to make this
point fairly often, this is not

a game for like, it is a video
game.

It's like the very, very top of
the Maslow hierarchy pyramid of

needs.

Right, we're not trying to like
, this is not something that

it's just like.

If you're, if you love playing
poker, if you love playing video

games or if you like you happen
to be able to, you know your

personal interests and your
profession overlap.

Yeah, this is different from
this.

Yeah, what am I trying to say
on that last piece?

I just I think there's like
evaluate, like value is so

subjective and we're so like,
we're so off into this, like

economic experiment between
people who are, you know,

incredibly well off for the most
part, and you're trying to

apply, like you know, survival
logic to it.

It's just like it just doesn't
make any sense to look at it

through that lens.

It's like a tiny social
experiment essentially, but CCO

is just, it's pretty fascinating
.

It's pretty fascinating.

The other thing I think people
start to realize is like some of

the most effective marketing
like if you ever worked in

marketing, you know this it's
like people are trying to get

other people to like share the
message on their behalf, And

essentially all IP and copyright
law is written in complete

opposition to that idea.

Like if copyright law was
adhered to on the internet, like

everybody would be in jail, you
know?

Like, even like.

Look at, like Giffy I think
Facebook bought Giffy for $100

billion.

90% of their content is like
Disney, hbo, you name it.

I don't know how they go away
with that or how that works, but

like the horse has left the
stable on all of this stuff And

it's just the people who are
like designing economies around

the reality of it versus like
the thing that they want to be

true, seem to be winning.

Speaker 2: There's a lot there,
man, i mean you know, and one

thing that you touched on
lightly around the CCO was the

you know cause I attributed like
it's, like the it's.

The question I don't think
either of us can answer right

now is, like, what makes CCO
successful And like what?

like?

is it the image?

Is it the you know?

is it the new technology?

Is it, you know?

because it's high valued?

But, in my take, is that 4156,
that, in my opinion, is what

made it valuable.

I could be completely wrong,
but you know you throw it.

You throw any major crypto OG
creator.

I think punk 4156 is the best,
but if 6529 did it, i'd probably

have the same sentiment.

You know, i would probably, you
know, and that's some.

Those are just two people I
consistently look up to or

especially got a lot of
information from in the

beginning and continue to.

But I think if it's someone
who's not an OG in the crypto

community or the crypto culture,
i don't think it works when it

comes to that specific CCO
project.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's
right.

There's like so many different
things need to overlap for it to

work.

Hey man, i need to just grab a
glass of water.

Speaker 1: I'm really parched
here once again Yeah man Yeah,

yeah, you're good, you're good,
take your time Sweet.

Speaker 2: All right, it's been
fun, man, because these are,

these are, you're one of the
biggest, like besides 4156, and

you're one of the biggest, or I
guess people have taken

advantage of it And that's not
like in a bad way, but like

you've taken advantage and
exploited or not, i guess

harnessed the ability of CCO.

And you know what's interesting
, the correlation I made between

that is, you know, the example
I gave earlier with Kath.

Like, to me, cco has to come
from someone who's already

established, because Kath has
been a pillar in the NFT

photography community for a long
time.

You know, and there was the
story I don't know if she heard

it, but I'll give you a TLDR is
the story behind this photo is

that if you just Google Hawaii
photo, it's the most.

It's her most stolen image that
she's ever taken.

It's a beautiful shot, but for
about five I don't know what the

story is for about five years,
you know, travel blogs used it

without giving her credit.

You know magazines, newspapers,
internet sites And she.

The story was that she
consistently filed takedown

claims.

She worked with attorneys who
were doing it pro bono to like

cause.

They believed in the cause, but
what she said for about five

years of effort, we never won a
case, we never got a settlement.

Nothing ever happened, you know
.

And so the story behind it was
that she was almost taking back.

She was charging what she would
have gotten if all those

settlements were won from stolen
property and stolen work And

that's what she prices at 100
Ethereum, and she was almost

reclaiming the rights by giving
the rights to everybody.

It was this very fascinating
topic and I think it only makes

sense that G-Money bought it,
like he wanted to own that piece

of culture and that's who
collaborated on it with her, and

they built an entire website
around it.

But now the image she can watch
it be used on these travel

blogs that don't give her credit
, that just call her

photographer versus Kath, you
know, and, but she actually made

all of her bread by doing that
And there's history on the

blockchain that gets to prove
that.

you know this thing, i don't
know, just it was a very and

that's where her and punk 6529
actually got a strong

relationship was that he was
actually supporting and driving

a lot of the narrative and like
providing some context from his

lens, because I don't know what
land he lives in, but his

threads are something that
consistently make my head spin

and something I always go back
to on a regular basis, you know.

So it's fascinating to see that
.

Speaker 3: Yeah, i was.

I forget who wrote this.

I'll have to dig it up and send
it to you because it would be

good to stick in the notes or
something.

But someone talked about frozen
assets.

So there was this really great
thread about like huge economic

leaps and huge businesses and
huge movements have been built

around the idea of unfreezing
assets.

So a good example is a spare
room in somebody's house being

like Airbnb's huge unlock right,
or an ability to you know,

lease property that you don't
live in all of the time, and I

think images on the internet is
a very specific example.

I think it extends obviously
beyond that to other types of

creative output and even
non-creative output, but NFTs in

the context of like viral
internet images.

There is no, there has been no
vehicle to capture that value.

And, yeah, not only like it's a
convergence again of like this

culture and people evangelizing
it and building up the story

around this idea that people
deserve to get paid for creating

things that people value.

And I think we collectively
have kind of been desensitized

to that And we obviously don't
act in accordance with that

either.

Like we share stuff that isn't
ours all the time, Like I react

to stuff with images that I
didn't make And I'm sure whoever

did is not getting fairly
attributed to that.

And there's businesses that
have people who have cashed out

billions of dollars of checks of
like other people's creative

work, And this is like I think
the first iteration of this is

like we're trying to go back and
retroactively fix that.

In some cases, in the case of
Kath, as you explain it, It's

like that's a retroactive fix,
But going forward.

If people understand this, it's
like you won't need to do that

retroactively in the future
because if you standardize the

idea of owning your work from
day zero, and make it affordable

to do that.

As technology improves, that
cost is going to zero.

That's just the way all of this
works, Like that's gonna happen

And then you don't even like it
just changes your relationship

with stuff.

In the same way, they wouldn't
steal someone's bike on the side

of the road Because that's
somebody's bike.

Yeah, The internet is just a
different.

We've been set, we've been, we
have these shared behaviors and

we've come to like agree on
stuff that I think a lot of us

don't actually agree with if we
really examine it.

It's like no this person spent
time.

That's their output of their
work And I think this is where

it has to be done really
carefully because people have

such an emotional reaction to
this stuff.

But I think owning the product
of your labor is not a really

controversial topic and it
shouldn't be something that you

fight against, because the
alternative to that is a lot

more grim.

Like you're renting everything
from meta ink or paying to

access everything, but I think
the thing that does put people

off it is like having to having
such a direct comparison

economically is a really, really
tough thing.

in the same way, that you know
the metrics of the content

people produce.

They like marry that up with
their self-worth.

If you add, like, economic
measurement into that, it's

really, really hard for people
to deal with.

So there's I'm not saying there
aren't things that need to be

addressed and you can opt in or
out of this situation, but I

think you know people like 6529
are doing the work of trying to

like have the conversation about
what we collectively agree on.

Right, if 80% of our economic
activity happens on the internet

but we don't own any of it, who
owns it And who benefits from

it And where does like?

where does value flow in that
situation?

And it may just be
uncomfortable because we're so,

you know, we've kind of been
indoctrinated into a different

way of thinking about it, a
different way of interacting

with it, and this is a different
world.

We'll see.

Speaker 2: But like, just like
we were doing now, even though

the system is inherently flawed
and there's a lot of things that

my person, my entire way of
thinking has shifted, there's

such a different feeling that
comes from right click saving to

left click owning, you know,
like there's a very different

feeling that that emits and you
don't know until you know.

But it's hard to like fault
some of these people because,

like, this is the system that
we've currently adopted.

You know, like in web two, like
the web two, is there what

we're calling web two?

We've all agreed upon this,
even though but as I I'm gonna

tie this back to my own personal
growth you know, we all don't

know what.

We don't know until something
is a catalyst to make us think

different.

You know, like there's
behaviors that if I went back

and repeated behaviors that I
did seven years ago, that would

completely be disruptive to my
soul and to my, to my psyche and

who I am today.

But I didn't know any better
back then.

I didn't know what the hell I
was doing until I was presented

with enough experience or an
opportunity that motivated me to

change my thinking, and usually
that comes by way of emotion,

anger, pain.

You know, unfortunately, those
are the catalyst for change,

because it incentivizes us to
think differently, because we

don't like being uncomfortable.

So it's just a very fascinating
topic with how people come to

adopt this, where you got Esther
and Harold just figuring out

how to use Facebook And now
you're through Like we're in

candy land over here.

Yeah, i mean, even people in
their 30s that I work with, you

know, like some of them are just
like now, getting comfortable

using Facebook, and that's not.

They're not that old, you know,
that's actually very young.

And so you, all these different
shifts that are happening are

something that I don't know.

Man, we can go a lot of
different, a lot of different

directions with this.

I wanted to touch on, like one
last topic and something that I

know you've identified with and
I know I have very much as well

And one of and one of six, five,
two, nine's mega threads like

the ideas, like what a meme
actually is.

Until he shared that thread, i
didn't.

I just looked at memes as gifts
.

You know, i looked at memes as
images with commentary that

described an emotion.

But what this was when he broke
down, like the football analogy

, is like football is just a
meme.

It's just as you were
mentioning earlier, a social

contract that we all agree.

We're gonna go watch some
people throw a very weirdly

shaped ball into an end zone And
we're gonna speculate, we're

gonna throw money at it, we're
gonna gamble on it, we're gonna

start fights over, we're gonna
paint our face about like

because of it, and that's just
really what.

Like.

In my opinion, what a meme is
is just a social contract that

we agree upon.

This is just a very different
and It's just a very interesting

way of looking at memes.

and it kind of makes my head
spin now that I revisit it,

because it's like what really is
a meme?

and I think that, tying back to
what, especially with the punks

or not the punks the, the nouns
that you've put on your merch,

they all have very much to do
with the meme of 69 and 420.

You know, and why that's so
important.

You know, and I think people
also look at this as like,

that's so stupid.

You know why?

why is this?

I think that's the biggest
objection, because we've to kind

of piece everything together.

We've talked about is that the
real benefit is owning digital

content and like, finding ways
to Like, make sure we're fairly

compensated for the value that
we're providing.

But the narrative that gets
pushed as people to see why is

69 420.

Being sold for 6940 420 theory,
and which is a lot of money,

and that is the narrative that
doesn't make sense to people is

that It's because of the meme,
it's because of the culture, is

because of the social contract
that, in my opinion, was created

in internet culture And you can
dive so far deep with, like the

pet bait, like I don't know if
you watch it, but the feels good

man documentary, if you haven't
know I need to watch it, yeah

yeah, man, it's a very how the
pepe meme came to an existence.

came to existence.

Matt is just God bless him and
just such as, like hippie stoner

dude had no idea Of the, the
identity that this frog with

that god incredible, incredible,
yeah, yeah, yeah, i man, i'm a

student of it, for sure, and I
am like I think this is a put.

Speaker 3: This is a personal
journey away from an environment

where You essentially told what
to do.

So I think, like a lot of
crypto culture is like People

are either operating
independently completely or like

, in a certain aspect of their
life, like they're like

operating in a free market of
some kind, which is a completely

different Mental environment.

Then, like, you turn up, you
get told what to do.

You leave, you know that the
memes that exist, or have

existed for a long time before
the internet, like we're pretty

isolated and consistent And now,
like the internet manipulates

reality in such a crazy way that
you know there is that we,

there are seven billion versions
of reality running in everybody

else's Head right and I think
when you start to like go down

the philosophical rabbit hole of
this is like The fact that you

and I can communicate and the
words I'm saying have meaning to

you, like That's evidence that
these, like every word, has like

enough shared meaning that
we've agreed upon between us, as

I'm not saying that it's
exactly right, but it enables us

to have a conversation That
extends to everything in your

life, like I think one of the
memes at 6529 references is

America, like you can flag as a
mean like this is one of the

biggest and most successful
memes of all time And he's

totally spot on.

It's like and there are so many
layers to it like, yes, the

thing you share on Twitter,
that's like Pepe the frog making

some expression as a meme.

But also like Every layer up
from that is a meme to right,

like Political party a is a meme
, political party B is a meme.

The country that they're
competing for control over is a

meme.

So, like when I started to go
down that route, i was like,

okay, if You know, if,
economically and like socially

speaking, a lot of what we do
happens on the internet now and

that's been like massively
accelerated by covid remote work

.

All of these like changes have
happened over the last couple of

years, and crypto is just
another.

Like I think what's fascinating
about it is money, is.

Is has been such a consistent
meme for so many people right,

it's like I earned this much.

And for somebody to Like for
some kid who's playing World of

Warcraft in their basement 10
years ago to now have a nine

figure net worth, because they
were on this forum and they Line

this currency with an old
graphics card is like yeah,

that's like a meme gone out of
control, right?

and I think One other point to
your point of like why 69, 420

and all this stuff is funny is
like What's interesting is most

people don't think of
entertainment as valuable, right

, because they assume their work
is not fun, entertaining,

interesting.

Yeah or attention grabbing so so
they automatically Kind of move

that to the other end of the
spectrum.

so like you can't possibly get
paid for being funny, for like

messing around on the internet
for playing computer games for

doing all this stuff.

And the reality is like the
things that people enjoy are

valuable, like if we can agree
on anything like something that

makes you smile, something that,
like, sets off dopamine

shooting around your brain,
those things are valuable.

Just the infrastructure that
we've been operating in could

not allocate resources based on
that type of value, and now it

can, and that's like people are
freaking the hell out about that

.

For a lot of different reasons.

But it's a much more macro thing
to get your head around then

Then.

Then you first think, and I
think There's like at some

sometimes in your, in your life,
you can you're confronted with

an idea and you're like, okay, i
need to run away from this

because I'm not ready for it, or
like I don't want to confront

this right now, and other times
you're like I need to understand

this, or I'm getting left
behind, or you know I'm in order

to get from where I am now to
where I want to be have to hit

this head on Or you know, quite
simply, just like the people

you're around or the ideas you
follow like end up leading you

down that path.

But I think there's Mega
resistance to it because it's.

It seems silly and like
silliness, is actually like

incredibly valued and valuable
and like this is like a breakout

Allocation of resources and
attention in that direction and

it freaks people up.

Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and to
take it even a step further, is

I think we've we've only
reserved people that are allowed

to make money from being funny
or from being entertaining, to

like movie stars.

They've always been put up on a
pedestal.

So I think that's the extra
layer to it is now the common

person Can achieve astronomical
success without being this

idolized figure.

You know that is brought up in
an industry that's ideally,

incredibly corrupt.

So I think that's the extra
layer to is that like wait, this

in the mind is like that can't
happen.

Why is this happening exactly?

Speaker 3: exactly, exactly
that's.

That's the, that's the
resistance.

Like I'm like going back to
like filing paperwork in an HR

job and people are like trading
pictures of frogs on the

internet and making X like this
is not fair or right and You

know, i just I just think that
that's like not a productive

discussion, it's just like it's
happening that's what the market

is voted on like.

Yep, it's just it, just it.

I think our job as educators is
to try and Push people, not

push people.

Lead people in the direction
that, like the things that you

care about, that were like
before, like the things that you

didn't think of as economically
viable pursuits right, probably

more economically viable than
they've ever been before, based

on you know, this new economy,
right, and all the

infrastructure being built
around it.

And that was what I was doing
with visualized value before Web

three, before NFTs.

Any of that stuff was like
helping people get their head

around the idea of the internet
as like an opportunity machine,

and this, this whole ecosystem,
has just taken that and and

amplified it by a good amount.

Yeah, normalized some things
that were not normal very, very

short time ago.

Speaker 2: Right, and I think
the last thing to tie a bow on

this all, before we start
wrapping it up here, is that

this is, i think you know we
would one of the narratives that

this space has is that we're in
a cultural Renaissance or

revolution.

But the the the interesting part
about between this one from a

traditional art Renaissance,
that A lot of people are self

aware that this is what we are
actually in.

You know, it's like this is
almost like a greed upon, like

this is a revolutionary change
in the way art is distributed,

the way artists make money, that
the conversation of You know

like if you want to, if you're
an artist, you know no longer do

you have to have the
conversation of like well, you

better get a traditional job so
then you can pursue your passion

or else you're just going to
not make it.

Talk about a meme that's been
amplified is you know making it.

I think that's a very strong
reference point and I think the

difference, like I said just to
reiterate, between Then and now,

when art changed people's lives
, is that we're just self aware

of how massive this actually is.

Speaker 3: You know 100% and and
you're You're playing To ring

back the video game reference.

It's like you get.

You can press restart at any
point.

That's right.

It's not like yeah like yeah
you know, in Renaissance Europe

it's like you work 25 years on a
painting and if nobody, you can

only walk so many miles to show
it to people.

that's right versus.

you know you have the ability
to distribute something to

Hundreds of thousands, millions
of people and it's only

amplified when you're dead set
of outcomes.

Yeah, indeed right exactly right
, exactly right.

Yeah, you can capture some of
the value of it while you're,

while you're still breathing,
which is a good, a good thing.

I think we can all agree on
that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I
think the last one I want to

make on your video game, on the
video game references that, the

argument that I've been hearing
Not to hold that can be a topic

for a whole nother podcast.

but there is one of the biggest
, i guess, social or the

psychological Arguments of video
games that people go to video

games and not think about money.

Like people don't want to think
about their economic activity

while they're playing a video
game, they want to get lost in

the storytelling and they want
to get lost in the adventure And

be this person.

that maybe helps them cope with
the stresses of everyday life

or the challenges that they're
facing in.

the last thing you want to
think about is like man, if I

can sell this skin, i'll make
money.

like they just don't Care about
that.

so the quote unquote take rate
of these publishers, which is

100% right now that the value is
already there, they don't feel

like they're losing, you know So
it's just, and if they don't

feel like they're losing and
they're not losing, losing.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Exactly Because Halo
is a great story driven game

that I don't need economic
incentive to spend all my money

playing and enjoying that game
Like I love it.

I'm capturing all the value
that I need.

That's the purpose.

You know, it's all the ones.

Speaker 3: Yeah, i think.

Yeah, it's just.

It's like, as in the same way
that like people don't like the

vast majority of people, sorry,
don't make their money by

performing hard physical labor
anymore, right, right, it's just

the same, like it's the same
trend in a very, very

accelerated way Like yeah, don't
know exactly how everybody's

gonna be making money in 20
years.

Yeah yeah, yeah.

One thing we can honestly bet
on is that it's probably not

going to be doing things that
can be automated away by like a

couple lines of script.

Right.

And again, the big meme that
the majority of us in the last

couple generations grew up with
is like work as hard as you can,

works, not fun, right, you know
, pursue your hobbies in your

free time.

And that narrative is changing.

I think younger kids now growing
up with you know understanding

the economy of the Internet.

They're native to it, like
they're the people they follow

or the you know their people
they're learning from.

Like Internet native, have
Internet native enterprises,

whether that's games or
personalities or brands.

So I just think the future of
work is more creative in all

things.

Right, like brands are going to
continue to exist.

Like, yeah, going and working
and designing like stuff for

artifact in the in the digital
like Nike store is a badass job.

Like, i think dude, yeah,
that's kind of a, that's one.

I think shift in narrative that
would be super helpful is like

there's a real opportunity for
more people to pursue more

creative and interesting types
of work as a result of, you know

, moving to to An economy where
most of this repetitive stuff is

honestly going to get replaced
by robots or code or you know.

I don't know what timeline that
takes place on, but it's, it's

going to happen.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i was actually
the.

The exciting, what's
fascinating is I didn't graduate

college but I did participate
in college.

In the last class I took
seriously was the.

It was a meme of a class.

It was that.

It was that class where it was
like you know, learn how to

study better and learn how to
take notes and learn how to, you

know, it's just like college
And a kid kind of classes, which

is, you know, you had to take
it.

There was a guy that taught the
class and he showed up in a

Hawaiian shirt and khaki pants
every day, completely didn't

take it seriously.

The actual lecture, you know he
taught what he had to talk to,

like make sure they check the
box.

But this guy was a serious
entrepreneur.

He on three different
businesses, lived in you know,

live in the gated community like
, and he was really there just

to help educate people on how
the world really worked from an

economic perspective and from a
business perspective, and

teaching you how to like,
harness, you know, your own

gifts and also Apply some real
world principles to, i guess,

narratives that were happening
and that was.

I honestly, oh, everything that
I've created to that Teacher,

because if it wasn't he, what he
mentioned was that you know,

there's becoming this gap in
like manually labor, manually

intensive jobs that are going to
be replaced And technology is

where it's at, and if you have a
love for technology, there's

going to be this gap that,
unfortunately, will grow And the

people who are on the right
side of being curious and

passionate and love technology
are going to reap, and then

there's going to be this area
that just barely struggles to

get by, and that was honestly
the catalyst that even got me

curious to wanting to pursue
whatever it is that came to my

mind.

And so it really is man, and I
don't think I ever intended to

attend another college class
after.

I think I maybe attended one
more, but that was really it,

just because I had the pressure
for my parents to continue to go

to school And I just didn't
agree with it, you know, and

yeah.

So it's just a very fascinating
time that we're living in,

because that's the job that
that's the question I've had.

That something you just brought
up was like you know, if all,

if everyone is now going to be
unleashing their creative

potential, there are still kind
of like jobs that no one wants

to do, that still need to be
done.

What does that look like?

Are they paid less?

Are they automated completely?

If everyone's a creative,
that's kind of a paradigm shift

that I don't even know if I'm
ready for, to be honest yet, and

if that happens, i don't know
if I know what to do with it,

because I just don't see the
structure in place.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, i
agree with you.

I think in the short term, like
we're seeing it basically like

play out now, where I think
honestly, in the short term,

people will get more fairly paid
for contributing In like

physical roles maybe not like
immediately, but it's like

you're seeing the like labor
market tighten up right now

where, if I can trade JPEGs or
go on Robin Hood or like

starting only fans, there's many
different ways to make money on

the internet.

Right now, yep, yep.

And like making 70 bucks for a
half day at Starbucks for like

an internet native kid is like
this is just ridiculous, like

why would I even do?

Speaker 1: Stupid.

Speaker 3: I even begin to think
about doing that.

It doesn't make any sense.

So, like Starbucks, you're
either going to have to figure

out how to make robots run the
stores or you're going to have

to pay people enough that it
makes sense for them to come to

work, and that's the market
right.

That's how that's how it
functions And unfortunately,

it's a people who are, you know,
who didn't come into contact

with someone like you described
when they were at school, but

don't recognize that the
opportunity exceeds, like the

things you can walk to or like
the things that you're born

around, and that's like that's
true.

Inequality to me is like that's
.

The gap that has to be closed
is access to these tools

information, education,
experimentation, like risk

taking within some you know,
like and then encourage risk

taking within within reason.

Obviously, right, yeah, we're
just we're so far apart and

there's a lot of reasons why,
but it's like the things that

are being developed are.

I think that the general trend
is it becomes easier to make a

living on the internet every day
, which, if you have access to

it, is a good thing.

Speaker 2: It really is, and I
almost know that we've had this

conversation or went down this
rabbit hole a little bit is, you

know, will?

will these jobs that are
traditionally now sought after,

whether it's like an executive
or a manager of a sales team,

will the narrative flip where
the creatives are paid more and

the people who are running
client success or like sales or

anything, even though sales
brings in money, you could also

argue that creativity brings in
money.

If you look at the way this is
going and could that be An

interesting shift, where people
like that are working

traditional sales, customer
service, hr, you know, product

like, will that be?

will it flip and will creatives
get that edge?

where the people at the top are
like, this is where the

attention is at, this is where
the values at.

So we're going to pay these
people more and obviously you

can't pay everyone what they
feel they deserve.

Everyone's going to know one
feels like they make enough.

I make a decent amount and still
don't feel like that, you know.

But that's going to be the
interesting shift for me.

Is that like will?

I don't know if that will
happen or not, but will there be

that Like, damn, like working
in, working in these traditional

I guess models may not be as
lucrative.

And when people are making
fucking frogs and Like doing all

this shit, that's making the
company a lot of money.

Or the design for artifact,
yeah, like that would be such a

that'd be a job to have.

Speaker 3: Yeah, great job.

I think there's a great book if
you haven't read it, you should

read it called the sovereign
individual.

Speaker 2: I haven't.

Speaker 3: Yeah, give that a
read.

But that talks about like it
was written in ninety seven and

it is like ridiculously
prescient book but essentially

like predicts the internet
economy and life, the rise of

the individual as a like like
globally competitive economic

node, rather than like it's
going to get really, really hard

.

and it's already hard for
companies to retain talent

because you know they're trying
to Essentially make 50% margin

on your labor and in many cases
it takes thousands of people to

build something.

there's a lot of amazing things
that you want to be like you

want to go work at Tesla or, you
know, like work in a lab to

Design medicine.

there's plenty of things that
take thousands of people to do,

but there's also a lot of like
really dumb jobs out there that

are.

Essentially pointless and I hope
that those are the ones that

are.

Eliminate it, slowly erased
exactly, and move people towards

either working on something
that they really believe in, or

making art or you know, i think
there's that's That's the hope

and hopefully, like shifting
incentives around, can get us

there faster.

Speaker 2: Yeah, man, i will.

I, speaking of a day job, i
have to.

I'm blessed to be able to take
a break to do this in the middle

of the day, but I do have to
Start wrapping things up, man,

nice.

I want to want to.

I want to give the floor to you
again one more time.

if you were to Working number
one, where can people find you?

but also if you'd recommend I
love that book that you did

recommend but what are some
number one can be will find you.

number two Where would you like
to send someone who's curious

what's what's like one of the
most valuable resources, i guess

, if they're wanting to learn
about crypto, nfts and Web three

?

Speaker 3: Yeah, i, you can find
me on Twitter at Jack butcher,

and the project that we talked
about is at visualize value, and

I think I'm just going to echo
One of the resources that we

went over probably a dozen times
in the podcast.

That's punk 6529.

Going to consume all of those
threads, probably in order, i

think You go to the pinned
thread at the top of that

profile.

There's they're all.

They're all neatly threaded
together up there.

Read that stuff and I think
that should get you A working

knowledge at least.

And then I think the skin in the
game component is is good to

like that have to be more than
like 20 bucks, but like if

you're genuinely interested in
learning like I only really

began to learn when I was like
Invested in even a tiny way like

you just think about things
differently when you're involved

versus when you're theorizing,
or Right, yeah, just like

reading material.

So yeah, that should lead you
down the right path.

I think there's a thread that's
like how to buy your first NFT.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3: I'd stop cool man.

Speaker 2: Well, jack, it's been
an absolute treat.

This went way, way over than
way more than I expected.

Again, man, huge fan, huge fan
and glad we were able to come

together to make this happen.

Speaker 3: Now, thanks for
having me, man, i appreciate it

and thanks for the support
Absolutely man, thank you for

joining us on another episode of
the Schiller vaulted podcast.

Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed
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