Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the Shiller

Vultured podcast.

This episode was originally
recorded on October 29th 2021

and features Kath Samard, a
Canadian-born photographer,

digital artist and a central
figure in the Web3 community.

Her work blends reality and
imagination in her landscape

composites and she has an
instantly recognizable style of

surreal cold and blue mountain
nights.

We chat through her discovering
photography, the journey of

being one of the first
photographers in Web3, the

entire story behind her
legendary free Hawaii photo and

her obsession with capturing the
world her mind imagines.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guess may own NFTs
discussed.

Now join me as we explore the
mystical world of Kath Samard.

GM.

Kath, how are you?

Speaker 2: Hey, gm, gm.

I am super good in you.

Speaker 1: I'm doing well.

I've had two cups of double
shot espresso and now I'm on my

first cup of coffee.

So it is in fact to you.

Speaker 2: This is great.

I had two guru energy drinks
because I slept like three hours

, So now I'm feeling great.

This is the solution to
everything two energy drinks.

Speaker 1: Right, it's not an
inward solution, it's always an

outward solution right.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it fixes the
problem.

Speaker 1: It does, At least
mitigates it to where we can

finally give our bodies a rest.

But there's too much energy
here to not do it right.

Speaker 2: You know who needs
the sleep when you have the GM.

Speaker 1: That's right.

That's right.

The sleep does not provide the
same benefits that GM does right

.

Speaker 2: No, the GM wakes you
up, gets you going, starts the

day the right way.

Speaker 1: That's right, always.

You know, what's so funny is
that when I first started diving

or dipping my toes into the NFT
world, i didn't understand GM.

I didn't understand it.

I'm like, why is everyone just
saying this all the time?

Why It's like six o'clock at
night but people are saying GM

to each other, yeah, then it
just clicked.

I'm like, on a cultural level,
number one, nfts and

cryptocurrency is global.

It's always GM.

Right, it's always morning,
always.

It's like that corny Jimmy
Buffett song It's five o'clock

somewhere.

It's the same concept It's
always morning.

It's always good.

We're always having a good time
here and it's always morning

somewhere.

Yes, that was like, but once I
got it, i got it.

Once it clicks, then it's
intoxicating.

Speaker 2: You know, i have some
friends who used to hate the GM

and they were like I am not
going to do it.

Then yesterday I saw that They
did it.

I was like, oh, here you go,
here you go.

Speaker 1: Right Welcome.

Speaker 2: That's it, yeah.

Speaker 1: GM.

Speaker 2: Yeah Right, it's
going to get to you one day or

another.

Speaker 1: It will.

It takes time and we don't need
to understand it all at once,

But it was when I finally just
got immersed in the culture and

I'm like, okay, I get it, Even
though I can't actually describe

why we do it.

it's just like this, unspoken,
everyone knows what it means,

but they don't have to say it.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: No, yeah, it makes
you feel good, it makes other

people feel good, right.

It makes people feel connected
Right.

Speaker 1: And then all the
memes that go along with it,

especially from Satoshi and
Lupify like with all the good

morning chats and it reminds
others to have a good morning,

actually has a good morning,
says GM.

that doesn't care what time of
day it is, It's all my favorite

ones.

Speaker 2: I love it.

I saw someone who did a
derivative of the Free Hawaii

photo with the GM and I was like
this is good, love that.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean we're going to
dive into the Free Hawaii, but

I want to let you give a quick
intro to yourself.

You know who are you, what do
you do And I guess how are you

Like.

This is vibe.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm a
photographer based in Canmore,

alberta.

I love to do landscape
photography, composite

photography.

I love the outdoors, i love the
mountains, i love the bears, i

love to hike at night.

I'm a little bit I don't want
to say crazy, but maybe fearless

.

I would say a little bit, a
little bit.

But I think that's just part of
who I am And I just love to push

myself mentally and physically
and that's what really allows me

to actually connect with my
work and be proud of myself.

So yeah, and then I've been
doing photography for about five

years now, so that's it.

Yeah, that's it Five years, yeah
, yeah, back in 2016.

And then, two years after
beginning, i became a Sony Alpha

ambassador, so that was pretty
cool.

It was a really big step into
my career.

And then I started to lead
photography workshops all over

the world.

That's sick And yeah.

But then it stopped with COVID,
so I had to find another outlet

, right, You know like.

Exactly.

Actually, you know what, when
COVID hit, that really gave me a

nice break, because 2019 was
absolutely crazy for me.

I was just traveling back to
back to back to back.

I think I ran like eight to 10
workshops that year.

I was not home for an entire
year And I kind of burned out.

So I think COVID was actually
perfect.

But then, when COVID happened,
i was running a workshop down in

Patagonia.

Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: So it was the general
panic.

It was absolutely crazy because
the country was actually

shutting down as I was with my
group, so that was pretty scary,

i have to say.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean I
imagine.

so That's fascinating because
generally the whole world was

panicking, but I feel like
number one.

I always felt obligated to go
do things that I didn't want to

do by society And, like COVID,
completely eliminated that.

You know what I mean.

That's the introvert's life,
though.

Yeah, i'm always like that.

I'm introvert, except for when
I'm in a group of between one

and three.

Any part of my life, three
people's kind of the max, but

that's typically been my crowd,
and I've typically never enjoyed

conversations in large groups,
because when I connect with

people, i like to connect with
people, and if it's more than

three people, it's impossible to
have genuine conversations with

more than three people or more
than two people.

Speaker 2: You know what?

Speaker 1: I mean.

Yeah, I agree, and I mean, even
before I got sober, when I was

getting fucked up and I was
doing all my partying, it was

always like a maximum of five
people that we just vibed with

Because I trusted them.

You know, we just we always had
a lot to talk about, and

especially when I was doing all
the psychedelics, i knew that if

for whatever, i was very good
on that, but if there was a

moment of weakness, i knew that
no one was ever going to take

advantage.

I knew that no one was going to
try to fuck me over.

No one was going to try to fuck
with me or make me have a bad

trip.

It was all just vibes right
from the very beginning.

And that's always been
translated into.

It's kind of crazy how that
same ethos has translated into

the rest of my life.

I don't go to parties.

I don't like big social events,
unless it's a concert.

That's the one exception, but
outside of that it's just.

We can make such strong
connections one-on-one And if

you're not doing that, i just
don't know what the fuck you're

doing in life.

You know what I mean, yeah.

Speaker 2: I agree 100%.

I was never a big group person.

I remember, even when I was a
teenager, when everybody would

go out, i would be the driver,
the boring person who, just So I

would go to the pre-parties and
then I would just drop everyone

to the party and people would
be like, hey, cap, come on,

let's go.

I'm like, no, i'm just going to
go home.

And then I would just come back
home Because for me it's like I

think being in a big group
setting is just really draining.

At the same time, it depends
what you're doing.

So when I run my workshops,
obviously I'm with eight to 10

to 12 people and then people are
relying on me, but at the same

time that setting I'm sharing my
passion.

I'm teaching photography, i'm
in the outdoors.

So it's not the same as just
being at a big social event

where everybody's getting fucked
up And I usually stay like 10

minutes and then I say, hey, i'm
going to go to the restroom and

then I'll just leave.

Speaker 1: Right, exactly,
exactly, like all my previous

company parties.

I vibe with that because my
previous company parties I would

go, i would show up And then,
if I didn't win a prize from our

annual raffle once they did the
prize drawings and add it win

anything.

And I never won anything in six
years when I was there, i left.

Because, especially by that
time, people have about three to

four drinks in them and the
level of sincerity starts to

drop and the light starts to go
away in their eyes.

And for someone like me it's
just okay.

Well, i'm just going to go vibe
at home.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: I get that.

Speaker 2: That's like since
shell.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, or HBO and commitment,
whichever one you want.

You know what I mean.

Yeah, there we go.

Yeah, so I say that because I
think that COVID, in a weird way

, was one of the biggest
blessings, depending on how you

looked at it, because the whole
world shut down And a lot of

people got to sit with
themselves, and for someone like

me, that was very uncomfortable
Now that I had no distractions,

but I took that as an
opportunity to work on myself

and to really work through some
of the issues that I would just

deploy distractions against.

But you could also argue that
this was also the birth of this

wonderful, amazing community
that we're a part of today.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i fully agree.

For me, covid, when it hit it
was a little bit tough because

it was my first year really
being able to make a living as a

photographer.

Before that I've been really
struggling making a living of my

art Like I would work as a
housekeeper.

And then I would go on the
weekends to shoot.

Or I remember when I came back
from one of my trip I would work

at the government and have a
desk job, you know nine to five.

And then it just like it would
kill my soul.

So you know, when I started
doing workshops, i finally felt

like I was doing something that
I really liked.

And then COVID happened And I
had maybe like a full year of

just really questioning myself
you know, what am I doing?

And I eventually I drove from
Quebec, which is where I'm from,

all the way across Canada to
the Canadian Rockies And I

decided to live out of my RAF
for six months, where I would

sleep in the parking lot of the
local grocery store.

I love that I was just living
off my car, like you know, like

I'm just not giving a fuck.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: And be like you know
what?

I'm not gonna work.

I'm just gonna hike and create
non-stop for six months And I'm

gonna try to get better and try
to gain back that.

You know happiness And it
really works for me.

And then eventually I came back
home, grabbed all my stuff and

then drove again across Canada
to move to Canmore, which is

really where I fell in love for
the first time with the

mountains.

And here I am today And it's
just so.

Yes, it's been a blessing
because I am finally able to

make a living as an artist And
I'm living where I love the most

.

And you know, i think that the
NFTs in general have really

pushed me to develop even more
of my art.

So I'm just, i'm super grateful
.

It's been amazing.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean
that's that's.

I didn't.

I didn't know that first part
of your story, like that.

For basically what I heard from
that you know I like through

all that is that, like you said,
fuck this right And but to me

what that?

and correct me if I'm wrong,
but it from what I gather from

that, is that you didn't give
yourself any other option like

but to be happy.

And if that meant like
sacrificing everything that you

currently did because none of
that brought you any joy, like

you're going to go literally
live out of your car in front of

a grocery store and like vibe
in the mountains and create And

like to me that there was no
other option outside of that.

Am I right?

Speaker 2: You're 100% right.

I was just sort of like hitting
a wall and I was like there's

no other options.

So, yes, i mean, okay, i could
have gotten myself my apartment,

right, but then I decided to.

With that money, i decided to
buy a lens, a new lens, to

create more awesome shit.

And then you know, it's like
okay, and living comfortably in

an apartment or buying a new
lens, Right.

And I think the choice was
pretty easy because I have

always prioritized my art and
this is just that's why I live.

I think for me, creating is
like one of the primary needs.

Yep, yep.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 2: When I don't create,
i don't feel myself and there's

no chance that I'm going to feel
balanced and happy.

So that was more important than
having a roof Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but you did a
lot of what a lot of people

don't do is you ask yourself
really tough questions, like you

know, like what?

like, is this really what I
want?

You know, like, what am I doing
here?

Like and being really honest
and being really accountable,

and I think that's what I think.

for people who are able to do
that, covid was a blessing.

for people who aren't able to
do that, covid was a nightmare,

you know, because if you're
unable to question yourself, if

you're unable to question
reality, what makes you happy?

Like, just like being another
cog in the wheel, like then

there, then then COVID was an
absolute nightmare.

But it sounds like for the
people who were true creatives

and the people who, like, were
not just going to be a, like a

housekeeper or a desk for the
rest of their life, like that

just sounded like the greatest,
you know, like thing that could

happen to you.

you know, because I can't, i
can't imagine you being a

housekeeper or like a desk
person.

like that just does not.

I don't, i can't even picture
that.

Speaker 2: It was, you know what
.

I think that doing housekeeping
was actually a little bit

better than working at a desk,
because I was moving my body and

I was like staying fit And it's
like for me when I move my body

.

That's my own way to quite my
mind.

It's almost like a meditation.

So I would just put some
podcasts and music and just go

really quickly.

But the desk job was was it
killed me?

I?

Speaker 1: can imagine Yeah, i
just can't, i can't even picture

that Like it.

Just it doesn't, it doesn't
compute, it doesn't, it doesn't

fit the smart contract.

You know what I mean?

Speaker 2: The, the, the, the,
the, the, so actually I was

bringing my laptop and I was
secretly working on my editing

instead of doing my job And, to
be honest, like I don't even

know why they hired me, it was
the dumbest, most easy job ever.

So I got everything done in
like one month out of my four

month contract And then for
three months I would just do a

little bit here and then I would
keep editing, and that's

actually how I improved my
editing a lot during that time.

So we're happy about that.

That's actually really cool.

Speaker 1: I love the.

I love you say that because you
like you just like you got you

got your shit done, you were
able to create, you were able to

like.

That was like to me that like I
think people look for like a

simple answer And they look for
like a cookie cutter answer And

there's and there's not like if
you want to break away from it,

you have to like take a little
bit of a risk right Like there

there has to be some risk like
you had, like I'm sure that like

that was not even though you
finished your work.

That probably still brought up
a lot of emotions and probably

some conflict of like you know,
like should I be doing more?

Should I be putting an extra
effort here, or should I be

creating?

What are people thinking?

Like all of the I'm sure that
was like a real like thought.

That was like a real thing that
you deal with.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: So there's something
that I have noticed that my

brain does a lot, and it's when
I'm doing something that I know

I'm not meant to do, which is
being at a desk, or even I try I

try to be a waitress And I was
the most.

I got fired on the first day I
literally sabotage myself when I

know that I'm doing something
that I that does not align with

my vibe and my soul, and you
know what I mean.

Yeah, i do, it's just I do Yeah
.

Yeah, that's why I do.

Speaker 1: I got fired.

You and me very much relate as
far as, like the food industry I

was actually working when I was
living in Aspen.

I was working at like a high
end restaurant by like Ajax

Mountain And I got one order
wrong.

There was like two people.

It was wild, I can't make this
shit up.

There's two people that ordered
the exact same thing, except

the one was a VIP table and one
wasn't.

They literally had two dishes
The exact same thing.

They were not a part of each
other's table, like two separate

, like parties completely.

The VIP table had one
additional garnish on it that

the other one didn't And I mixed
up the plates and I got fired

And I'm just like this is not.

This is just not for me.

No, And I was like well, in an
Aspen they're spending like $95

on like a regular meal.

You know what I mean.

Like it's a, it's a, it's a,
it's a no nonsense business.

Now, what's ironic is like
Aspen there's so many people

yacked up on cocaine all the
time that like it's just, it's a

, it's a, it was a catch 22.

But in reality it was like one
of the best things that ever

happened to me, because I was.

I was so, so miserable doing
that And to be held under such

scrutiny.

Like one little garnish got me
fired So we've got.

That's crazy.

We vibe on that Like we vibe,
We vibe, Yeah.

So I want to go back even a
little bit further, Like what

you know.

So you, you were in photography
, you were, you're a

photographer for five years.

What got you into photography
in the first place?

Like what was the kind of like
the journey leading up to that?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I I would
say that my journey in the arts,

sort of the industry, started
as a model.

So I I did some modeling from
the age of 16 all the way to 24.

And along the way I also took
some classes to become a fashion

designer, and I was also
working as a fashion stylist And

I just sort of like realized at
one point that I was not

feeling fulfilled anymore from
that job.

I surely was really passionate
about it when I started, but I

think that the fire just sort of
like died down.

I was feeling really lost.

So I was like you know what?

I'm just going to break the
lease of my apartment, sell all

my designer clothing, sell my
car And I'm going to buy a one

way ticket to Australia with a
working holiday visa.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 2: So I?

so I just said, fuck it, I'm
going.

And then I became a farmer.

I love this.

Speaker 1: I love this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I arrived in
Australia and I started by

working at a cherry farm and we
would do some cherry picking,

maybe 12 hours a day.

It was a super, super physical
job.

The cherries were massive, like
seriously massive, almost like

little apples, and the thing is
that when you would do the

cherry picking you would sort of
be allowed to eat the cherries.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But at the same time
there were like a lot of

pesticides on the cherries.

Speaker 1: Gotcha.

Speaker 2: So it's not the best
for the digestion anyway.

Speaker 1: So I just I take it
there's a story behind that, but

we will get into that.

No.

Speaker 2: That's all I have to
say.

Speaker 1: Right, right Right.

That's the best for digestion.

We'll leave it there.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll leave it
there, but so I would.

I would just feed myself of
cherries for three months, that

was, and I did not want it to.

I didn't have a lot of money
And, to be honest, like that job

, if you were not super good, it
was still a little bit

difficult to make some decent
money.

So that basically, the more you
would pick, the more money that

you would make.

But also the way that you would
cherry pick, you needed the

stem, the steam on the cherry,
and if it was not there, then

you would get flagged and then
you would.

It was like really.

Speaker 1: yeah, it took the
cherry picking very seriously.

Speaker 2: Yeah, very seriously,
You could get kicked out if you

had like three strikes and then
.

so it was very stressful.

So I was really, really slow
and I was probably in the worst

farmer they've ever had.

To be honest, i was just ending
the day The last one, the mouth

all red from eating cherries
non-stuffed for 12 hours And

that I was happy and they liked
me and they were like you know

what, kat, you're a pretty
shitty farmer, but you're kind

of cool, so we're going to keep
you.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 2: So I was able to
survive.

But then, once the season ended
, we moved to another farm and

that was a banana farm in
Queensland, and this it was a

pretty rough sort of job.

They also gave me basically
some of the most physical job.

So I was driving a cherry
picker and then I would go from

treat the tree in order to put
the bags around the banana

bunches And then I would spray
the pesticide.

So once again in direct contact
with pesticides working at like

40 degrees, no mask, no nothing
.

And then I eventually started
to develop rashes from being in

direct contact.

Yeah, so really bad rashes.

So then they put me inside, so
in the shed, and they gave me

the worst job, the job that
nobody wanted to do, and it was

basically when you receive the
banana bunches, you take out the

bags around the bunches, but
these bags have been around the

bunches for like months, so you
can only imagine the amount of

spiders, snakes, that would come
out of each bag.

So it would like minimum,
minimum, like 10 times a day I

would take out one of the bag
and then there would be a snake

jumping in my face for spiders
going all over my body And I had

to get used to that And
actually my first day doing that

I didn't have long sleeve and
no gloves.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God.

Speaker 2: So I was just full of
spiders.

Speaker 1: You had no idea what
to expect.

Yeah.

I was either okay, cool, cool,
you know I'm going to take it,

yeah.

Speaker 2: But then I learned my
lessons because, like I was, my

entire body was like full of
spiders and like from my like

really, really small spiders to
big ones, and then I had to

learn how to, you know, manage
when there's a snake.

So basically, when there's a
snake, you need to catch the

snake by the tail and then
really fast, yeah, and then you

make it turn like this to make,
to make the snake sort of like

these oriented.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then, and then
you put it in the bucket and

then you release it Right Back
into the jungle, right.

So that was my job for like one
year.

Speaker 1: This the snake
regular.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was my
job.

Yeah, it was.

It was insane and I was not
doing photography.

Just to come back to
photography Yeah, I was not

doing photography really at that
time, but I was sort of like

documenting my Side adventures
when I would not be working just

with my phone, i think iPhone 3
Yeah, the old phones we had

back in 2014.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then I would post
my stuff on Instagram.

And then eventually there's a
Bandana company Australian

bandana company who reached out
to me and we're like hey, kat,

we've seen your work on your
Instagram page, we loved your

work, would you like to
photograph or product?

And I was like my work would
mean my work.

What do you mean, my work?

Mm-hmm.

But I just sort of like went
with it and I was like you know

what?

sure let's go.

And then they gave me, i think,
1500 bucks.

With that money I bought a
camera and then I started to

learn photography by Taking
photos of people wearing the

product, either running, hiking,
kayaking whatever so that's how

I got into photography.

But then, yeah, and then when I
finished my My two years of

farming, i decided to take a
solo trip With my new little

camera, mm-hmm.

And then I went to Indonesia,
hawaii, and I ended up in the

Canadian Rockies and that was my
first time Seeing, you know,

huge mountains.

And that's actually when I
realized that I had a thing for

mountains, because I did not
really know that before.

But they just, yeah, they gave
me the fields, they gave me God.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you and me both
like I'm like a fish out of

water here in Texas, because,
like when I was in Aspen, like I

felt So at home, like
especially like I was a worker

on the ski resort And like I got
to go up on the mountain on

like a Tuesday and snowboard
when, like all with just the

locals and there was no tourists
There's no.

I'm just like I literally felt
like I owned that mountain and

it was like one of the best
feelings in the entire world.

Like there's beach people and
there's mountain people.

Like I fucking hate sand, so in
like salt water is annoying,

like, but the mountains like to
me and I don't know if you share

the same vibe, but like to me
it's.

I know the ocean has its own
way of understanding.

This is not man-made, but like
looking at a mountain, you're

just like there is absolutely
zero way That man or human could

ever build something like this.

Like it was like my first like
moment of like man.

There is actually something
greater at work here because,

like there's no way a human
could actually construct this.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, it's just.

I felt like that was like my
first Concept, like concept of,

like something greater than me.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah, i feel that
mountains are also Super

humbling.

Yeah, and like I can't, it's a
really specific feeling that I

can't really explain it.

Yep, and that I've never really
felt with anything else, and I

remember actually, my first time
feeling that really insane

feeling was On my first scramble
do you know scrambling.

Speaker 1: No so.

Speaker 2: So scrambling is like
when you go off trail and you

make your own way up a mountain.

So the it would be bush, bush
walking and then usually you

need to use your hands a little
bit.

So when you use your hands,
that's considered scrambling.

Speaker 1: Okay, okay.

Speaker 2: So the first time
that I arrived in the recce I

did not know anyone.

I was sleeping off My rental
car on the passenger seat.

You know classic.

Yeah, that's actually how I
started doing that and you know

what?

so wild, you know what.

Now it's clicking.

I think that this specific trip
was so, was so insane for me

and it just left me such a
feeling of freedom that now,

sleeping in my car, it brings
back that feeling.

Speaker 1: Ah, I love that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it does see
that Yeah and it just sort of

clicked now.

But back to the back to the
scramble.

Um, so I met up with like eight
strangers To go on a well hike,

more like a scramble right,
right right.

There was only one guy who has
ever did any sort of scrambling

before.

Wow all like inexperienced
people.

So, yeah, what we did was like,
hey, there's a peak there, let's

try to go up there.

So we just started like Bush
walking, scrambling up like just

really sketchy Goolies and and
making our way up there.

And it was really interesting
because there were there were a

few people in the group that
were really Scared you know?

Speaker 1: yes, naturally, so,
right Yeah which is which is

normal.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's your first
time, but for me, i remember I

was like what the hell is this?

This is the best thing ever.

Like the adrenaline, the views,
like this is a real life

adventure.

So we reached that peak and
then, instead of going back down

, we decided to stay on the
ridge and make our way all the

way to the not to another peak,
and and because we all did not

have experience, when we're like
, oh you know what, two hours

will be fine whatever it took.

It literally took us like six
hours to go to that other ridge

because we needed to go up and
down and Just like go, go on.

Really narrow ridges and yeah
just some really technical moves

and stuff like that.

But it was the best thing ever
We discovered like small glacier

lakes, like glaciers, like
giant weird rocks, it just it

felt like Lord of the Rings I
and felt like I was in the movie

Lord of the Rings and felt so
amazing.

And then we reached that crazy
viewpoint Which was overlooking

a glacier, transforming into a
glacier lake, transforming into

that giant waterfall, going into
that Bluest giant lake.

Yeah, and I was like what is
this Like?

and I'm talking about that and
I have, i still have like the

shivers, it's just.

And I remember at that moment I
took my camera and I took a

photo and I was like this is
what I want to do, this is what

I want to do, this isn't this
like.

I've never felt anything like
that and I feel that up until

that day, i've been chasing that
specific feeling, like since

day one that I started.

So that's why I that's, that's
one of the reason why I push

myself so much, because I'm not
only chasing the shot, but I'm

chasing that specific feeling
that I sell, which I don't know

if I'm ever gonna be able to,
because you know, it was sort of

like my first time, but I'm
still sort of like Trying to to

reach that but it's so.

Speaker 1: I love that story
because, like it's, it gives you

something to like be like.

I think there's like there's
like really big moments, that

like when, when humans like
experience things that like you

just like can't Mistake it for
anything else, like you don't

know exactly what it is, but
like it, just it's.

It's so authentic and it's so
real and it's just like there's

nothing that quite feels like it
And you can't really describe

this feeling to a person like
who's never experienced it

before and everyone has their
own like Thing that makes them

feel like that.

Yeah, you know what I mean And
yeah, and that's and it's almost

worth everything.

You know.

Like it was a very similar Not
not the same story, but very

similar.

Like when I first came into the
NFT world, like like I had

really had my worst.

I Was like broken down.

It was like my worst point in
my professional career.

Like I just received the worst
news of my life And I I

literally called out for a week
like it was like.

It was like the thing like it.

It shook me to my core, but it
was one of the best learning

experiences that I've ever had.

And, at the same time, it was
right when people like sold his

like 69 million dollar grail and
I'm just like what the fuck is

this right?

Like I'm like this is.

This is not nothing.

I literally said that without
being immersed in the culture.

Like I'm like this is something
, like this is definitely not

nothing.

And I remember It felt very
renaissance.

He, like I was.

I was in this clubhouse room
with like Metacovin and to the

door and like Suram who was on
the good time show, who was

hosting this, and also the I
can't remember his name, but the

punk with the, the alien punk
with the fedora and the pipe.

I can't, i I can't remember,
and they were just like

expressing this imagination that
, like I had like Stuffed so far

down inside me because, like I
just never felt like anyone

would ever understand, like the
gibberish or the feeling that I

had when I would think of like
this world or Like with how

technology can enrich our lives,
but then these people were

speaking this language That,
like I didn't even know that I

spoke myself.

You know what I mean It was,
and I remember I was so hyped up

on passion and coffee and also
yet Incredibly emotionally

depressed at the same time, like
a cat.

I think I felt every emotion on
the spectrum that humans can

experience in that week because,
like I maybe has slept for 10

hours, you know, and I just wow,
i can't describe it and that is

like what, like launch, and I
still don't fully know What my

real role and all of this is
right now.

It's storytelling and
relationship building.

I love podcasting, but I know
that there's something beyond it

, but that it's like that
feeling is the exact feeling to

get every time that, like I
connect with someone that

Understands it, that gets it,
that understands GM, that, like

you know what I mean like this
is just like a community that

I've never, i never even dreamed
, i could never even dream of

this.

You know, it felt like the
moment that I realized that I

didn't have to put like I'm a
recovered heroin addict, i

didn't have to put heroin in my
body to be okay anymore.

It was like that same feeling,
Like both of those moments were

like synonymous with each other,
Like they felt the exact.

It's like holy shit, I have
arrived.

You know what I mean.

Like-.

Speaker 2: Do you think it's
sort of like an awakening

feeling or something happens?

Speaker 1: It is because with me
and it's weird, my journey has

many awakenings and you know,
like, because I got busy really

early with getting you know,
with, like I guess you could

call it fucking my life up, you
know, but I got sober at 21.

And when I finally like, like,
when I finally had that moment

where I shared that body of work
that did it for me, i remember

it was like this, like burning
bush moment, where, like, the

grass was a different color,
green, like the sky was the most

blue it had ever been, and it
was the first realization that I

had that I didn't have to put
anything in my body to be able

to be okay, to be liked to
function, like cause.

Those were all things that,
like I would like drugs, were

the solution to my feeling of
inadequacy, that was the

solution to the way I felt.

And this was the first moment
where I said I don't have to do

this anymore.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: And yeah, that's
crazy.

Speaker 1: It's such a wild
feeling that, like when you know

you know, like when you know,
like there's just feelings that

are unmistakable, like you just
cannot mistake them for anything

else, but what they are, You
know what I mean.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

I just I felt like sharing that
cause it.

that was like a very similar
feeling.

And then when I experienced
that like with this community, i

said, oh my God, you know, like
this is, this is the same

feeling I, this is the same
feeling like when I actually got

sober and I didn't feel like I
could ever recapture that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel that
this community also has sort of

like regrouped similar thinkers
, and I think that's why we

connect all so much, because we
all share perhaps that same type

of energy.

Yeah, and we're just really
open-minded, yeah, and yeah, i

think all artists together and
just like really passionate

people and open-minded people
just forms that awesome, really

strong community.

Speaker 1: And I feel like we're
square pegs and round holes to

the rest of the world.

Like I feel like we just don't
fit in anywhere else.

You know what I mean?

Like it just we can do it, but
it's not really like it just

doesn't work, like we're all
It's all the black sheep's.

Speaker 2: We're group down on
Twitter.

All the black sheep's together.

I love it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's.

I've even heard that analogy
Like that's, like probably my

that's.

The best description that I've
heard is like we're all the

DGENs that like put on a smile
but really like couldn't stand

doing the rest of this.

You know like the regular life
shit.

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think this
is a great segue into.

Like your NFTs and like your
photography, like cause, like I

actually found you through
fractional.

That's how I figured out about
you.

Speaker 2: Oh really.

Speaker 1: Fractional, yeah, and
through the photo vault, and

that's how I found these, that's
how I found you, that's how I

found Ben, that's how I, you
know, like and and I'm just like

, like your blue, like was, like
the most like earth shattering

feeling that I'd ever
experienced.

I'm like, oh my God, like this,
like I didn't realize how much

of a connection I have, a blue
till I saw your work And I'm

like, okay, like we got to like
talk to her, we got to like

learn more about this, like
amazing woman.

So you know, like, tell me
about we're going to showcase

some of your work here.

I want to we'll do a screen
share, but tell me about like

your journey, like into, like
NFTs, like the learning of it,

like you know some of the
shortcomings you know, because I

think that'll help people who
are like coming in and they're

still unsure and they're like
wondering what the journey is

like or like.

I want to hear some of like the
the good and some of like the

doubt or some of the uncertainty
that you have when you came in.

Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

So I actually learned about
NFTs, I think back in December

2020 through TikTok.

Oh shit, Shit, Yeah, Okay.

Speaker 1: I saw a video and I
was like.

Speaker 2: I was like what is
well, not really learning about

NFTs, just like being very
intrigued, yeah.

Spark the curiosity, yeah,
exactly.

And then I, it's sort of like,
stayed and I started seeing

other photographers that I've
been following for a long time

getting into NFTs, just like
Dave Krugman.

So I remember asking him some
questions and being and being

like, hey, like what is this?

Like how can I start?

And I was so confused, like I
remember I was like I made, i

remember I made like a post on
Facebook If anyone knows about

NFTs, i am willing to pay you so
you can teach me.

I could not find any
information.

And then I heard that Clubhouse
was the place to be Right.

Yep, so I started to spend, you
know, a few hours per day on

Clubhouse.

They started maybe two hours,
four hours, eight hours on

Clubhouse.

And I'm like, damn, i'm
spending a lot of time.

And like I was not working
during that time, i had just

released a course which was just
enough to, you know, cover rent

and food, head bills Yep, yep.

Exactly So.

I was just fully committed into
learning about that And I was

really pushing myself to jump on
stage and talk about me and

talk about my work And I hated
it Like I've never liked talking

about myself in general And
just, i'm just not.

I'm more like a thinker and a
writer than a speaker.

Yep yep.

So I remember I would like take
a shot of tequila and be like,

okay, today is the day I will
have one interaction.

It was that much And I was wet
And like the way that I was

speak was like very nervous And
I remember people like we can't

really hear you, kat.

I'm like, yeah, cause I'm so
nervous I can't speak.

I was so nervous So I actually
what I remember the most was

just me just being that nervous,
sweaty person for four months

on clubhouse trying to
communicate my art and talk to

people and try to create
connections.

Speaker 1: Yep, yep.

Speaker 2: And I remember, like
you know, i was in the space for

about you know a few months and
people like so, kat, like when

are you dropping?

I'm like, well, actually I'm
not really in a hurry, i just

want to keep learning.

I really want to do something
that I'm proud of and I really

want to take my time.

So I decided to apply on NIFTA
Gateway.

I decided to apply on Super
Rare.

I did have already a foundation
invite, but I was like I really

, really, really want to get on
Super Rare.

I just, I just know that this
is how I want to start my

journey.

So I decided to be patient and
to wait And then eventually I

got accepted.

And that was like so insane
because I think I was the second

or third photographer on the
platform.

So I was part of the first
photographers And I remember at

that time people were like, oh
no, they're not going to accept

you because like they're just
starting to experiment with

photography and like they're not
really sure.

But I think so well, i think
for a fact.

I know that what helped me get
on the platform was that I

proposed to release an NFT that
included an in real life trip

with me to the Canadian recces.

And that hasn't been done
before.

They were like this is so cool.

This is new.

So then I started to release a
few photos and then I ended up

with the in real life experience
And that went really well.

Speaker 1: I was going to ask
like, how was that?

Like is that?

was that?

Yeah, like, because that to me,
is like such a fascinating

story about like and I what.

I don't think that people
understand how much we can

actually do with this technology
.

You know what I mean.

Was that like?

if you, i know we're going to
interrupt this story and I want

to come back to it, but what was
like that?

What was like that IRL
experience, like with your, like

with the collector?

Speaker 2: So I have not done it
.

Speaker 1: Oh, you haven't done
it yet.

Okay, okay, so we'll have to
have another recording when you

do that, and then we'll we're
going to ask each other.

So, okay, super rare IRL
experience, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: But so so actually
for my Genesis drop.

I don't know if you saw, but I
took the time to create a promo

video with my good friend, matt,
who's been helping me a lot

with marketing and with videos,
but we literally worked two to

300 hours just for that Genesis
drop video, and so it wasn't an

insane amount of work And I just
really wanted to do something

that reflects my aesthetic and
my work and some sort of like

more like of a, you know, a high
effort drop.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I was really,
really happy with that.

I think people really connected
with the video.

So I released the Genesis video
and then I released my first

photo and I sold I think within
a few days, but then after that

I didn't sell anything for two
months.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 2: And that was
definitely that definitely

brought some doubts because I
was like, well, you know, i

spend so much money, you know,
on that video and so much time

and energy on that video, and
like, okay, i was happy about

selling a photo, but I still had
a few more to come And I think

at that time that I did not sell
anything.

I probably had three or four
photos available in my super

rare.

So, you know, i was like
definitely disappointed and I

was just it was making me doubt
that that entire thing, like it,

was that worth taking like six
months of my of my of my life to

learn about NFTs, like is this
worth it?

And then there's one day I jump
on one of these these space and

there was a Justin Vasero on
stage, there was D's and I think

there was Farouk Yeah, i can't
remember And I remember there's

Justin.

He was like hey, i'm seeing
cats.

The more than the audience Like
let's bring her on stage.

She just released an in your
real life experience.

That's pretty cool.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: And I jump on stage
and then I spoke about that.

Were you in that room?

Speaker 1: No, I was not.

I was actually not.

I think that was still like
when I was doing my like

research and I still didn't
quite like I knew I wanted to be

here, but I also I didn't know
if I wanted to be here.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, I was in that phase, Yeah
.

Speaker 2: It was a crazy room
because I really took the time

to tell my story, talk about my
work, talk about the release,

and people seemed genuinely
interested.

And that was something that I
did not really felt before Yeah,

except for the person who
bought my Genesis piece.

But I was like, well, people
truly don't give a fuck about my

story.

And then that kind of like
really changed because on the

same night I received an offer
from D's and I received another

offer from somebody else on
another piece And I was like

whoa, like what is happening?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then things.

It was sort of like a blockage
And what I realized is that I

know that there were a few
collectors interested in my work

, but they were just waiting to
see if somebody else would bid,

if that was a good idea, And you
know which.

I don't blame them, That's
trying to wait to see if you

know an artist you know is worth
investing some money.

But that really really helped
me.

And then you know that just
really gave me a big, a big push

for the rest of my release.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 2: So I would say that
that was the biggest sort of

doubt.

I was not planning on quitting,
but I was just like you know

well, let's wait another few
months and see what happens.

Yeah, but yeah.

And so then I released a few
other pieces And then I decided

to work on another really big
project, which is free Hawaii

photo.

Speaker 1: We're going to bring
that up.

We're going to bring it out
Because, like I, i fell in love,

like because I remember you it
was right after one of your big

drops I can't remember which one
it was Like and then I saw your

tweet and you're like, my next
project is going to be something

that like is like pushing the
boundaries, like going to break

the rules, like going to like be
really innovative, and I'm just

like, ok well, not that you
didn't have my attention before,

because you already did I'm
like, ok, like now you really

have my attention.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Because for someone
like me, like I, whether it

flops or it succeeds like I have
such a soft spot and such a

genuine interest in people that
like are trying to do things

that no one else either does.

It's incredibly risky.

It changes people's thinking
Like.

It disrupts the way people like
like look at things And like I

have, because that's part of
like why I don't feel like I fit

in in a lot of other societies,
because, like, those are the

type of people that, like I,
like to be around because It's

not common, it's not it's not
the way things are.

It's something brand new, so
we're gonna do a Screen share

while you tell the story.

So I Yes, i cannot like.

I love this.

Speaker 2: And it's funny
because in that tweet I also

added that people will either
love it or hate it.

Speaker 1: Yep, yep.

Speaker 2: And that's exactly
what happened.

Like I, i I got a lot of love,
but I got a lot of hate too.

You did.

I'm not gonna.

Oh Yeah, oh yes.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Hey, when I yeah, i I
can't tell the story, but it

was pretty, pretty insane.

But I was expecting it, because
It the goal with this was to

disrupt what we know, as you
know, the traditional licensing.

Speaker 1: And okay.

So yeah, let's go on the
website, Let's go into that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so basically
fear.

Why is?

as I'm reading, it's the
world's first image to have its

rights released after the
one-one NFTs purchase, and the

idea with that is that I had a
specific photo that I posted

back in 2017 and that became
absolutely viral, and you know

what?

this photo is not blue and that
really pisses me off.

I know that's my most.

Speaker 1: I Almost, i almost
I'm like is this a cat piece?

because it's not fucking blue.

Speaker 2: Right, i'm like how
come the only not new photo of

my entire portfolio?

Yeah, yeah, but I'm viral.

Speaker 1: But I think that it
speaks to The importance of this

piece as well.

Like is it so different from
the rest of your work?

like that out that we're all
used to that?

Like it almost has to stand out
.

It almost has to like it.

Yeah, it's broken apart to
where no one can get it confused

.

No one has any doubts or any
questions.

Yeah so anyway, I just made
that connection and I think that

that it's.

It's not supposed to be blue
Like we like the green here.

We like the green only for this
one, but we normally like the

wall.

Speaker 2: Okay, the bone is
kind of Kind of green kind of,

but let's not get her.

Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.

Yeah let's not get ourselves
here.

You got mountains.

That's that we got, we got
mountains Right, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2: Okay, but that's it,
that's it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good
enough.

Speaker 2: Good enough.

Yeah so, basically, i posted
that photo back in 2017 and it

became viral like Almost
instantly, like all the big hubs

started reshare it and at first
I was really happy.

I was like wow, like it's kind
of the first time that I'm

receiving so much attention for
my work And for me, that was

like a super.

That was like a super Sort of
like simple and easy photo.

I literally just got out of my
car, took the photo, came back.

It was literally the most the
easiest photo I've ever taken.

So I did like the photo, but I
was not expecting anything from

it more than any of the rest of
my work.

And then, so you know, it
started to be used by like

really big hubs, like on
Instagram, on Facebook, and then

it started to be reshared, but
mostly without credits.

I even saw the photo a few
times on big travel pages with a

hundred thousands of lights Wow
, millions of youth, no credits,

nothing back to me.

And that lasted for four years
and I, like, along the way, i

decided to Try two different
services which help people, help

photographer, recover some of
royalties or some of the yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, exactly so you know they
would some lawyers like really

specialize in that and And none
of these two services were able

to recover any money from the
case.

Zero.

I never received a single
dollar for that Wow.

Speaker 1: And how much did that
cost you to like, hire these

like people to do that?

Speaker 2: So what's cool with
both of these services is that,

well, the first that I use it
was like free for the first few

months.

Okay okay, and then you need to
start paying, but it usually

when you pay it's just like a
person edge of the whatever,

whatever you get back, okay,
gotcha.

So if you don't, if they, if
you know they don't win the case

, you don't have to pay anything
.

Speaker 1: That's good, at least
So yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: And then I had, i
think, only One or two other of

my images that I was able to
recover some money out of my

entire portfolio, uploading 30
images and both of these

websites Out of a hundred,
hundreds and hundreds of cases

across my entire portfolio.

So it's like, well, yes, you do
have these services, but it's

not guaranteed that you're gonna
get anything out of it right,

and it might take years, you
know.

Yeah, um, so I would.

I came to a point where I
really wanted to drop that photo

, but in a way that would be
meaningful and in a way that

would tell a story and.

I remember I was.

I was Drinking some wine,
smoking some pot one night with

my friend Matt, who did my
Genesis video before, and we

were just sort of pitching crazy
ideas.

And We came to this idea and at
first I was like, well, why

would I give away my rights to
like the people who stole it,

you know?

and it just felt so weird at
first.

But then the more you thought
about it, the more it made sense

and The more you thought about
you know what our NFTs.

For me, the more an image is
shared across the world, the

more the value of the one-one
NFT goes up exactly and So that

was sort of like the way that I
was personally Understanding

NFTs and that was maybe three to
four months ago when we started

to discuss the idea Yep, and
Also I was like, wow, that would

be a crazy statement to be like
you know what?

You've been trying to steal my
photos for years and I have

never been able to win.

Then you can't steal what
you're being given.

So this is my way to reclaim
Sort of like my rights on this

photo by releasing it and making
it free to everyone.

So that was sort of like my way
to regain control by letting go

of control and so lots of like
different statements in this

project.

And I Was really lucky because I
was able to basically present

the project to someone who was
already interested in purchasing

my work and that person was
really loved anything that is

like disruptive and innovative
and he just really connected

with it with this idea and
that's G money, and I pitched

him the idea.

We had a call right after and he
was on board and he was.

He just saw something into the
project without even Showing any

form of marketing promo via
whatever right, just with the

idea.

He was on board and I'm like so
thankful for him that he was,

you know, Interested in the
project and I basically include

in him in the development of the
idea, like keeping him posted

about the website and everything
, and he was just, he was just

amazing.

So he also agreed in Doing a,
an auction instead of just a

private sale, because he knows
that, you know, the more this

project would make noise and
attract eyes, the the the more

lasting the effect would be
after so he agreed to taking a

chance to lose the sale but he
won and I'm super happy about

that and Yeah.

And then you know he did.

The image was released after
the, the purchase and everything

was.

You know, it was super cool and
I did not receive hate and

that's at that time I can't
really say that Yeah, actually I

would say that things started
to move after I'm a collector

punk 65, 25, i think 65 29 yeah,
so he, we discussed The project

and he was like hey, kat, i
would love to reproduce What you

did, but like, offer a few
people that You know.

If they're willing to release
their images to the world just

like you did, i will purchase
their work.

So he made a huge tread.

Speaker 1: Yeah, as he does
always like that his threads are

so yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it's so
insightful.

And then it was really
controversial.

Yeah, because when he released
the tread it was like well, i

have one e-budget per photo, so
there was very, i think.

I think, It caused a lot of
panic because people were like

well, our people are gonna start
releasing their photos for one

e.

And then it's a lot of
controversy.

Speaker 1: Just want to stop for
a minute.

How much did your so just to
give some people some context,

like with their free Hawaii
piece?

How much did this sell for?

so that way there people have
some like relevancy to this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for the
peaceful for a hundred e, yeah,

okay, and for me that was, that
was the minimum that I would be,

mm-hmm.

Willing to let it go.

Yeah, and my calculate, my
calculations for this specific

price came from The hundreds of
infringements that I received,

well, that that I Filed.

So let's say you know a hundred
, let's say a hundred, and then

let's say five thousand dollars
per You know use, which is

usually sort of like a normal
fee when you're Using.

So you need to pay the base and
then you need to pay a fj on

top of that.

So I was like you know what
hundred, five hundred, i would

like you know Between three and
five hundred thousand dollars

for that.

I think that Having that big
number also will help bring eyes

on the on another problem.

And it actually really helped
because right after I made this

still, i had pedipixel, modern
art.

I had a few big Hubs that
decided to make articles about

that.

So if I would have sold that
photo for, let's say, 10 a

theory I'm nobody would make an
article about that.

Speaker 1: No, no, no.

And then I think that, because
that's like 10, a theory is like

fifty thousand dollars, you
know what I mean.

Like I know that's the wildest
part.

Just to give some people some
context of like what we're

dealing with here, like and how
early we are.

Like this is like like no one's
gonna write an article.

That's how much money there is
in this scene and that's how,

like there's a lot more to it
than just like jpeg flipping.

There's there because if you
haven't heard cast story, like

there's so much under the hood
that is really meaningful, like

writes, we'll get in.

I'm gonna do a like, a, a quick
recap, when you're done, of

like why this is actually
important and why ownership It

like digital ownership means so
much.

But just to give you some
context, like, like we say this,

like yeah, only we're ten, a
theory, that's fifty thousand

dollars.

You know if to the person which
is, i just like to like bring

things into context, because how
fucking nuts that actually is

right.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, and
that's absolutely insane, and I

do think that sometimes we lose
that perspective.

Yeah, yeah and you know, i
think that's why, yeah, yeah can

be very easy to start buying a
bunch of NFTs, because office is

just one Ethereum here.

What if you didn't bear whether
you forget that it's actually a

lot of bit of money.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah it is, it
is, but that makes sense to like

for your.

Because when I heard the story
around the pricing, like yeah,

that, that makes a lot of sense,
it almost makes too much sense.

But the one, the great, the,
the the double-edged sword of

the internet is like number one.

Like it, it made ripples and
we're I know I'm interrupting

you here, i want to get back to
it, but it makes the ripples,

but it also people.

There's a there's a lot of
layers.

This because the internet is
great for spreading information

but it doesn't spread context.

It doesn't.

It's hard to understand the
context and the story behind it,

and Getting this story to where
people hear the full story and

not just a slice of the story
can cause so much disruption and

cause.

That's like.

The beautiful thing and shitty
thing about Twitter is that

nothing has context to it.

You know.

Speaker 2: Exactly, and I know
that you know, with, with, just

going back to that big, to that
big tread, like yeah.

I'm gonna say 90% of the people
who were mad about.

Speaker 1: About it.

They didn't read it.

They did not read that sit and
then clearly.

Speaker 2: You know, in another
thread Punk made it clear that

that was actually just like you.

Whatever it is like, pitch me
anything like this.

It was just like a round number
that he had, and then, you know

What, he ended up bidding on a
bunch of projects at like eight,

ten, fifteen, sixteen, twenty,
a theory.

Yep, yep and And that's.

That's when, actually, i think
that people were like oh okay,

actually this guy is, you know,
willing to put like a bigger

budget, but at the same time, we
need to remember that one

Ethereum for someone, let's say,
who might be starting.

Speaker 1: So I yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: If I, if I, if I go
back to you know Katzomard 2016,

unable to make a living off my
art, receiving five thousand

dollars for like, a full, like,
like, release the image to the

world Would have been massive
for me.

So I think that also made me
realize that we need to respect

people's pricing.

Yep and I think that that's
just to make like a parallel

with with collections.

I've seen a lot of
photographers releasing, you

know, pieces on super rare at
five, ten, fifteen, ethereum and

then releasing collections at
point five.

Yeah it's, it's there, it's it's
, it belongs to them, right?

So I think that's why pricing
we need to remember that pricing

is personal, yep, and we can't.

we can't start Regulating
pricing because this is a

decentralized place.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: Everybody.

If you want to release an image
to the world for point zero one

Ethereum, this is, that's up to
you at your prerogative, up to

you.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah exactly.

Speaker 2: So I think it also
opened a lot of conversation

around pricing around.

You know how, how personal it
is, yep.

But also it opened the
conversation about people

jumping on this trend because,
like definitely, punk created a

trend, sure.

Yeah yeah and and I saw like a
lot of people jumping on that

and really really getting
interested into that, that idea,

and I was very excited about
that because, just going back to

the project of the free-ho-ride
photo project, the original

project was me doing that, me
doing a statement.

I was not necessarily saying
that everybody needs to do that

right right.

However, I was saying that this
might be a possible path for

people that have had their
photos stolen.

So now that seeing everybody
jumping on CCO and Starting to

release their images that you
know are not necessarily viral

images that are maybe even new
images.

I Am extremely happy to see
that, because this is just

Breaking the rules of
traditional licensing and we

need that because that system is
not working.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean, i mean.

So if you don't break things,
nothing ever improves, nothing

ever changes.

Right and and exactly.

And I want to.

I want to wrap this up in a bow
because, like, i think that

this a lot of people still are
like you know Why, like you know

what is like, why is this JPEG
worth so much?

Why is this PNG worth so much?

like, why, like there's it's.

It's hard to like wrap the mind
around it, but we have to go

beyond even NFTs into, like what
the blockchain actually means.

You know the the blockchain is
a public, immutable,

unchangeable ledger where it
shows Transactions that cannot

be changed and if it came from a
certain address, then it's real

and it cannot be, it cannot be
messed with, it cannot be

altered, and so What happens is
when, what like?

and then you layer in Ethereum
and you layer in smart contracts

.

What this does is this this
allows people to prove that this

person actually has ownership
and has Whatever rights attached

to it.

It can be baked into a contract
that lives forever, that is

unchangeable, that is
unalterable, and it came from

your address and it's now in
their address, and that's what

makes ownership like.

That's what digital ownership
means is because, like the

person who owns the NFT, it's
the JPEG is the cherry on top.

Like the JPEG is the cherry on
top and under the hood is Why

all of this means so much is
because we have a way to prove

that this person in fact Created
this photo and this person in

fact owns the rights.

They own the token they have,
they have every claimed

ownership of this piece and I
Just don't think people

understand how big of a deal
that that actually is is because

when you used in licensing it
will There's probably a lot more

technical conversations need to
go on about that.

I was actually in your space
when you held that wonderful

Twitter space.

Yeah, but just to just to like
simplify things, is that, like

the blockchain, like these NFTs
or these Tokens are unique

assets that cannot be altered or
changed once they're created,

and this is what digital
ownership means.

It's like a digital deed to a
home, digital like I don't even

know what you call it like when
you own a car, whatever that

piece of paper is.

This is just the digital
version of that and it's public,

it's unchangeable and There's
no humans involved when it comes

to meeting certain criteria for
these smart contracts to

operate, and so I just I like to
like Put up just context around

like that, because that's
that's why this was able to sell

.

That's why, like, there was the
years of fraud, there was the

years of piracy, there was the
years of all of these things

that happened, and this is why
that piece, number one, was so

expensive.

But it's really why Ethereum
and NFTs are valued at what they

are is because It's it's not
the it's the JPEG is almost the

smallest part of it in reality
exactly you know, and.

Speaker 2: I would add to that.

I think, like This also opened
like a lot of conversations

around licensing, and like the
number one comment that I would

receive was like Well, what if
somebody uses on the billboard?

or what if, like you know some,
someone starts selling it, like

for millions of dollars in
China?

I'm like this is what I want,
like because, because the, the,

the, the concept here is that
the more, the more an image is

used Through the world, the more
the value of the NFT goes up

Yeah.

So I think that the way you
explain it was was really good.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and I
appreciate it and that's and

that's what drives the value.

But, like, because NFTs were
what was missing to social media

in the past.

Because, like you know, like,
especially with like Spotify and

And music and artists you know
of any site like you're like,

well, you know, like, i should
be able to use this in a mix-up

or a mash-up and I don't have to
pay a copyright Infringement

because it's really just getting
the, the work out there more.

It's really, it's really
exposing them.

But, but what I think people
like me, in in all, i'll like,

show my show, my cards here,
show my hand here, like, like,

that's what I thought You know.

But like, what I didn't realize
is like, after hearing these

stories in the opposite end,
that Exposure does not translate

to actual dollars most of the
time.

You know, like, and there's no
guarantee on that.

But what this does is this
allows the artists to get

compensated for what they've
done and They get the

discoverability of the piece of
the work, of of everything that

they created, you know.

So it's like the missing cog in
the wheel, like what we, what

we were missing, we had one part
right.

Like we can agree that we had
one part right, the

discoverability is what was
great, but we didn't have a

great model to compensate any
the artists who created these

masterpieces.

Yeah, so I Like, i just it's
hard to like.

You know, when I, when I talk
to people about this, is just

like That's, that's why like
this is the why and and and.

You could argue like you know.

Well, that's just not the way
things are.

But how did the way, how did
the current system get to where

it is?

is because a bunch of people
decided that this was the way.

And Exactly, we are together, a
group of people, not only

deciding this is the way, but it
actually makes sense when you

open your mind to it.

Speaker 2: You know exactly yeah
, right, this is the way, right,

um, it's the way.

it's the way.

Speaker 1: I Love that and so I
think it's only fair to want to

start wrapping things up here,
because I think I love that

story.

But I want to, i want to go
into some of the blue because I

think I would be doing myself a
disservice If we didn't get to

admire the blue and tell some
story like tell it, like at

least one story around the blue
before we wrap This up.

Speaker 2: Sure, let's go one of
my pieces on super.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's go.

Let's go to Alright.

Speaker 2: So I could totally
tell this story of.

Actually, the two pieces that I
currently have available on

super rare are from a Big trek
that I did in Peru.

Speaker 1: Mm-hmm, yeah, let's
do that.

So which?

so we have.

Okay, let's go to your actual
profile.

There we go.

Speaker 2: Yeah, some art.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so that
animation.

Speaker 1: Let's do this one,
because I want to hear the story

behind the selfishly so.

Speaker 2: Okay, perfect, so
that's actually.

That's actually a composite, so
it's a digital piece where the

foreground with the lake and the
mountain were taken with a

drone and The way this the story
starts is basically I took that

image during an eight-day trek
in Peru and It was a high

altitude trek, so we would go up
and down mountain passes of

like I don't know, 4200 to 6,000
meters, so pretty high, like

usually 4,000 meters.

You already start feeling them,
the the altitude sickness, and

And I had like really, really
big plans for that specific trek

and most people do it like in a
very, let's say, laid back,

relaxed way, but for me, i was
like, no, i want to wake up at 1

am Every morning, so we hike in
the darkness and then we reach

out the best viewpoints for
night and sunrise, because most

of my work is sticking at that
time.

And I was like, well, i'm not
maybe able to create anything if

we're just hiking during the
day.

So I was with two other guys
and I just forced them to wake

up Early every morning and we
had a guide and our guide was

like Cass, i have never had a
client crazy like you in 20

years of guiding.

Like this is madness.

And And it was really tough, we
would hike like 12 hours a day

every day like up and down, up
and down, like in high altitude,

with like minimum minimum sleep
, and it was just absolutely

crazy.

And There's actually one day
that I made them wake up at 11

pm.

So we just we went to bed at
like what, like nine or two

hours of sleep And then we hiked
in the dark to a certain

viewpoints, in the rain, and I
was just being very sort of like

no, like I know it's raining,
like we're still going, let's go

like one or two degrees, you
know, almost snowing.

And then we reached that
viewpoint and it's completely

covered, and it's like three to
four hours before sunrise.

So then I was like, well, Okay,
so we just hit, we just hid

Underneath a rock with like the
emergency blanket, we were

Soaked, and then the, the, the
temperature dropped below zero.

So it what we literally had
thrust on us.

Speaker 1: Oh my god.

Speaker 2: That was like it was
like one of the craziest day,

and then after that we still had
like a 12 hours of hiking

before reaching camp.

So, anyway, sunrise was, let's
say, okay, i got a few shots and

then we just kept hiking and,
basically, that specific image

was taken during the last day of
the hike and That basically the

night before we hiked Up the
highest mountain pass so six

thousand meters in the dark went
down.

our buddies were just like
after eight days of doing that

And you can't imagine Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, just your
entire board.

Buddy is like a sore, is like a
.

You're just a sore.

Yeah, you have no energy left.

But I was like Guide, i know
you will hate me, i know you

think I'm crazy, but please can
we just do one last like night,

sunrise hike.

So we left the campsite and
then we, we, we crushed a few

rivers and then we bushed, walk
up a peak and We were not really

able to get the full lake and
everything.

So I had my drone, so I decided
to fly my drone at blue hour and

then I flew my drone and then I
took the foreground and then I

I basically the other elements
were taking during a trek.

So I just added the stars
separately and then just to

create something that is halfway
between Between reality in my

imagination because this is how
I like to present my work Like I

don't consider myself as a
documentary photographer I like

to add little dreamy elements,
that kind of blur, that line

between reality and You know and
and dreams.

So that that's why I decided to
To create a piece like that and

with that really slow movement,
so like if you stare at it like

for long enough, it you're
almost like hypnotized because

it's so slow And then you kind
of notice that the the moon is

changing really, really slowly,
and I just wanted to create some

that sort of like meditative
Peace where you know, when you

just like get lost in your
thoughts and That's actually.

You know the title.

That's why I picked like a
really abstract title.

So that that's the story behind
that piece.

Speaker 1: I love that lots of
sweat and and and tears and

exhaustion, but that's why I'm
so proud of it and a lot of in a

lot of salesmanship, because,
like you had to like sell these

people, to like like I mean that
I think that's an underrated,

that is an undervalued trait of
yours is the ability to like

sell this shit And to like say,
like no, this is going to work.

And when you have when I mean
you have experience, this has

worked in the past But like you
don't really know if it's gonna

work or not, but you're like
this is gonna work.

Yeah, yeah yeah, i think that's
a very undervalued trait that a

lot of people don't like.

It's easy to look over, but
like that, that, to me, is one

of my favorite parts of the
story because, like you had to

convince these people That
hadn't done something before

that this was, that, this was
the way, right, like, and I

actually We actually had to stop
the trek earlier, was supposed

to be a like a 12 or 14 day trek
, but they were like cat, we

need to stop.

Speaker 2: Like we're exhausted.

This is too much.

So I was a little bit
disappointed, like you know I I

could have kept going, but at
the same time I understand that

you know not everything and that
everybody is just has that

craziness, and I was.

It was, it was a little bit
pushy, i'm not gonna lie like

there was one guy He literally
slept for, i think, like 20

hours after that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, he was dead.

Yeah, it was completely dead.

Yeah, yeah, well, that's that's
fucking cool, though.

So I love that we get to like,
i mean, you know what, but he'll

rest and recover And you know
what this beautiful piece was be

able was, was able to be
captured, and so, yes, i love

that.

Cat, it has been an absolute
treat to have you on.

This has been a lot of fun.

I like to like have the.

I like to reserve the end to
you know, like, if there's, if

there's any sort of advice for
people there, because you know,

when you entered, the scene is
Very different from the scene

today, or the space, like what
we call the space, you know.

So yeah with current, current, i
go, we can call it vibes,

current, like, i guess, market,
you know what, for photographers

who are looking to enter in the
scene, or just any, any artists

is looking to enter the scene
Today.

You know what would be, i Guess
what would be some advice, like

I, like what would be some,
some like whether it's words of

encouragement, tough Love, you
know a mix of the both.

What would be your message?

I?

Speaker 2: Would say Be ready to
work hard.

I don't think it's a space
where you can just put out work

and just wait.

Yeah, you need to put your story
out there.

You need to put the extra work
to.

You know, just like, tell a bit
more about the pieces.

You need to jump on spaces.

You need to, you know, be a
nice human and also, you know,

support other artists by either
a tweeting, leaving a comment,

like I.

This is like a community-based
Space, and if you're not part of

this community, i don't think I
think well, you could make it,

but I think it might be more
difficult to make it.

So just be, you know, just be
yourself, be a nice person,

share your story and also be
patient.

I know it's like such a fast
pace Space that being patient is

the most difficult thing, but I
just remind myself, you know,

when I it took me two months to
sell my work, if I would have

been like, you know what, fuck
it, i'm just gonna, you know,

leave it there, or you know,
just like, not push it, i would

not be here today.

So, be patient and like
patients always pay the, always

yeah.

So these would be the, the
words of advice.

Speaker 1: I love that.

I love that it's it's.

It's it's even as someone who's
not like a like even someone's

not an artist like this, like I
get, i get so wrapped up and

like the impatience of it
because it's it's.

It moves so fast and naturally
we think that Like, we can just

like avoid being patient because
of how fast everything moves,

but it's, it's like an oxymoron
like it's, like it's a, it's a

catch 22, because Patience is
like one of the most like needed

assets Are the most needed
skills in the space, because no

one has it.

We were moving at the speed of
sound.

We're moving so fast.

People are doing incredible
things every day and it's hard

to not Like it's hard, it's it's
hard.

I mean it's just like I was
trying to think of something

like grandiose to say, but it's
just fucking hard.

Speaker 2: You know it's fucking
hard, Yeah, but that's why it's

so important And that's why
people who are actually patient

succeed.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

And so, speaking of success,
work and people find your work

work.

Where do you want people to
connect with you on going

forward?

Speaker 2: Well, i'm gonna say
Twitter, my websites, i, they

want to check out my pieces.

They can go on super rare.

I'm gonna say Instagram.

You know, it's the old days, i
think not as active there.

But yeah, why not?

Speaker 1: It's actually how we
connected, believe it or not.

I don't know if you remember
that We.

I randomly found I found your
work on photo And then I

followed you on Instagram and
then I commented on one of your

pictures and said this should be
an NFT, and Then you reached

out to me and we had a dialogue
and then you made that NFT.

I'm like, well, i can't afford
this, but I'm really glad that

like this is gonna be sold to
people.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so.

Speaker 2: I can't remember What
was that piece, though.

Speaker 1: Let's, let's find it,
because I it was.

It was one of the ones.

I think it was in the cave.

It was one of the cave ones.

Speaker 2: Oh, it's probably a
nine.

Oh yeah, i think it was one of
the ice caves.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.

Speaker 2: I think it was one of
the ice caves from the Canadian

.

Speaker 1: Rockies.

Okay, okay.

So yeah, like let's go to.

I Love this, is one of my
favorite ones.

Speaker 2: It was this one.

Speaker 1: It was either this
one or this one.

Speaker 2: It was one of those.

I think it was this one.

Yeah, yeah, i think was this
one.

Yeah, one of my favorites.

That's cool, yeah, man.

Thank you Well, kat, it has
been an absolute treat.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess we'll
just sign off and go have

another GM.

Speaker 2: That sounds good.

Yeah, I'm see you on Twitter.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Thank you for joining us on
another episode of the Schiller

vaulted podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation as we close out

today's episode.

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miss an episode.

If you enjoyed our show, don't
be shy.

Leave us a rating and review to
help others discover the

vaulted podcast as well.

To stay updated on upcoming
episodes and our Twitter space

schedule, be sure to follow us
on social media at Schiller XYZ.

We always love to hear from our
listeners, so if you have any

questions, suggestions or want
to share your favorite moments,

feel free to tag us on Twitter.

Once again, thank you for
tuning in and remember Art is

everywhere and it's up to us to
appreciate and explore its

beauty it brings to our lives.

Until next time, this is Boona
signing off.