Speaker 1: GM, this is Boone and
you're listening to the

Schiller Curated Podcast.

This week's guest is Boone
Fiedhahn, founder of Deca, one

of the most popular platforms to
display digital art in Web 3.

In this episode, we hop right
into Han's why behind the

creation of Deca, the idea of
object permanence and an

in-depth discussion surrounding
onboarding users to crypto.

We then zoom out and discuss
society from a macro lens,

including its current
dysfunction, the decay of

current financial systems and
how the Black Death influenced

art from the late 14th to 17th
century.

As always, this podcast is for
entertainment purposes only and

should not be relied upon for
financial advice.

Boone and guests may own NFTs
discussed.

Now it's time to grab some
coffee and dive into this

conversation with Boone Fiedhahn
.

Gm.

Boone Fiedhahn, how are you?

Speaker 2: GM doing great.

Another great Friday.

Speaker 1: Yeah, man, I couldn't
be more happy to be here with

you.

man.

Seems like it's an interesting
time in Web 3, but I feel like

the people that are here are
definitely people that are

people who have a lot of
conviction.

I think it takes a lot of
conviction for people to stay

around in a market like this and
continue to ship and build and

do what we do.

So happy to be here with you,
man.

Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

All the true believers are here
.

Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

I mean, it's something that
I've always.

I know it was in.

I put it in theory when I first
came here back in 2021.

It's like, oh yeah, bear
markets are like builders

markets and it sounds good.

It sounds really good when you
roll it off the tongue, but that

was, of course, also in peak
wagmy vibes.

But getting to experience it is
something definitely different.

You get to experience some of
the good, the bad, the top

signal, the noise.

I mean, it becomes a little bit
more apparent now that I've

actually experienced it.

But I take it you've been
through one of these before.

Yeah, or is this your first one
?

Speaker 2: As a full participant
.

I'd say it's like my first one,
but I could certainly.

I was talking with a lot of
people during the full wagmy

days and I was talking about how
it's going to be different.

It's going to feel different.

We always talk about a bear
market, but it's going to be

very different when you live
through it.

It's certainly rough, but if
you truly believe in all the

reasons we're here for, it
doesn't feel that bad generally.

But anyway, i'm not being very
eloquent right now.

Speaker 1: It's okay.

It's okay, we kind of opened it
right up to that.

So, yeah, no worries at all.

But I couldn't agree with you
more.

It's not as bad as I thought it
would be And it kind of it's

been a course correction.

I'm not sure if this is like
this for you as well, but it's

kind of been a course correction
for me, where I came in here

with a certain set of beliefs,
like you were talking about.

There was definitely a few
reasons why I came in here, and

I think some of those initially
got lost on the way during some

of the insane peak euphoria that
we were talking about.

And it's kind of nice, at least
on a personal level, to get

realigned with, like I'm like
okay, this was the original

reason why I came here.

It's nice to kind of like get
back to the fundamentals of

everything.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of
gives you a little space to

think And you know, in the days
of the bull market you did not

have time or space to think
right.

These days you can do that and
then build.

I mean build is a meme, but
it's like one of those quiet

periods where you can actually
just have fun just building, not

trying to keep up with the
space.

So in that aspect that's been
interesting and useful.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i would say,
and something I got to give you

massive props to is that, like
when I came across Deca, it's

like you got like I almost feel
like you guys will know not feel

like it's.

It was actually what one thing
that really stuck out to me with

and it was really impressive
was like, in spite of like the

insane market conditions and
just how disciplined you and the

team were on shipping, i feel
like it was probably immensely

harder to do it when things were
good.

When things were good, or at
least not where they are today

in the market, and so I got to
commend you on that, because it

was that was one of the things
that stuck out.

I just couldn't even keep up
with the discord.

Yeah, we're just shipping
really solid products so fast.

Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for that
.

I appreciate it.

Yeah, we've been shipping and
we've been ferociously focused

on just building.

It's one of the things that's
really strong about the team.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i would say so,
man.

Yeah, you guys, you have a
solid group of people.

It seems like really close knit
, very like mission oriented,

very aligned.

So yeah, like that, that's been
really really, really fun to

watch And so would love to kind
of like open it up a little bit.

You know, deca is feels like a
very you know it's, it's, it's

obviously feeling a great, great
need that the space does have,

and I think it's such a
beautiful blend of a lot of

social elements and art creation
.

But would love to know, instead
of asking you know, what do you

do, Because we'll obviously get
to that, but it's more of a, i

would love to know why you do
what you do.

You know, like, why did you?

why, like, why did you come to
the space?

Why did you?

you know, co-found Deca?

like would love to, would love
to know a little bit more about

that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

So going back to the word true
believer, you know, when I got

into the space, you know,
initially I didn't really

understand what an NFT is.

I got into the space by hearing
about it from somebody and

they're saying, hey, you should
go look at this stuff.

And and at the time I proceeded
to buy an NFT because at the

time I was thinking, hey, the
best way to learn is to be part

of it.

And so I was bought one.

And then at that time I didn't
really understand what an NFT

was, and only I mean.

It was shortly after when I
really dug into it, when I got

the idea of this kind of like
digital object, that is, that

has object permanence And it is
you can do anything because it's

fully programmable.

That's when the idea clicked
And I realized, hey, this is

like, this is big.

So that's why I'm here,
regardless of the market

conditions, regardless of the
current situation.

You know the space is going to
be big.

That's the why I want to build
something meaningful in such a

what I believe is going to be
such an important part of the

world that we're going to be
living in pretty soon.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very
solid man.

Thanks for sharing that.

I love that answer.

And you know something I want
to drill on a little bit.

You know we use a lot of terms
and something I'd like to know

your definition like when it
comes to the.

You mentioned it like object
permanence.

Can you elaborate or expand on
that a little bit more, you know

and kind of like what that
means in the context of like

what you're like what you're
talking about?

Speaker 2: Yeah, object
permanence, it's just a fancy

term for something existing.

So it's a property of physical
objects, right of atoms, that we

take for granted.

So you know, take any object
that's in your, that's around

you.

you know, everyone has a phone
next to them.

Consider the phone, put the
phone on your desk wherever, and

, you know, come back in 100
years like isolate that area,

come back in 100 years and the
phone is still there.

It hasn't popped out of
existence.

That's a property of the
physical world that we take for

granted.

The interesting thing is that
for digital existence, the

property of object permanence,
that's really never existed

before.

You have digital objects
surrounding you.

So whether it's a, you know, an
in-game object, you know,

whether it's a document that's
hosted in a server somewhere in

some company, these digital
objects surround you and it's

really changed our lives.

but they've never had this
property called object

permanence, where if the company
gets, you know, the company

goes away.

if the company decides that you
shouldn't have this thing, they

disappear.

So they've never had this true
quality of existence.

Now we do, and we do because
these digital objects exist.

on the physics of
decentralization, the only way

to destroy these things is
either to control it and then

you do stuff with it, or if the
chain itself that underlies it

gets destroyed.

So it's a remarkable property
And the longer you think about

it, the more mind-blowing it is.

We're starting this kind of
parallel track of reality, of

these things that exist only
because a lot of us believe in

crypto, decentralization and a
mirror world is about to be

started.

So it's pretty remarkable.

Speaker 1: And, yeah, thank you
for sharing that.

I'm just sitting there, sitting
here soaking that LN, because I

, when you said object
permanence, like I had a general

idea.

You know of what that meant,
but thank you for like really

going there and breaking that
down from a physics perspective,

you know, because, you're right
, it has not existed And I think

that that is something I didn't
quite think about it as

eloquently as you did just now,
but thank you for sharing that.

But it was one of these moments
that I had when you know the

Beeple sales, what brought me in
but there was a clubhouse space

in 2021 where they had the two
buyers on And I don't really

remember exactly what was said.

I just remember how it made me
feel And it felt as significant

as it felt when the iPhone first
came out, like that this

technology had the potential to
make a really lasting impact.

Not only that, but I feel like
the feeling I had was like this

is going to change things
forever.

You know it was, and it was
just with such certainty, you

know, and I couldn't really
define it, you know, but that

was the one thing that I felt
And so one thing that you know

you had mentioned.

You know, i just wanted to.

Here's just being a little
curious.

Here is like, from this
physical perspective, this

object permanence you mentioned
this like in the physical world,

what was kind of your
background on a high level, like

in what we can call the
physical world or the Web 2

world, before you found this
space?

Speaker 2: Yeah, so I worked in
technology in Silicon Valley.

So I worked at all the you know
all the names that people

recognize.

So I worked at Amazon, google
and Dropbox And then after that,

i worked at two startups And it
was at that time I had decided

to build something, was looking
around and then found this space

.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so pretty.

I mean, sounds like a pretty
natural, natural next step.

And how did?

I'm curious to know how did
DECA start Like what it was?

was it just you Like, who all
was kind of part of that initial

initial team, and how did you
really turn this from an idea to

something that has staying
power?

Speaker 2: So Dekka existed
before NFT stuff entered my life

, so it was already a startup,
that I was trying to build

something, and it was at that
time that I found myself

personally spending more time in
NFTs than my startup.

Speaker 1: I think it's common
for a lot of people.

Speaker 2: Right, it's very
common, you get pilled and then

you're like wait this is so much
more fun than whatever I'm

doing.

Yeah, absolutely.

And then that's when I realized
, hey, this is my passion and

I'm going to build something in
it.

And I was fortunate enough to
enter in a way that I got a very

deep understanding of all the
things that are happening in

NFTs And I felt there was this
missing piece.

and that's how it got started.

Speaker 1: And what?

and has that?

missed it?

Like when you say missing piece
, can you elaborate on that, you

know?

on?

like what that piece was, that
you saw it to fill?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

so initially, one thing that
was clearly missing was a good

way to display and, kind of like
, show off your NFT in an easy

way.

Why is it so hard to take an
NFT you know a JPEG and put it

on these devices that we carry
around, that have glorious and

beautiful screens Like why is it
so hard?

So one of the first things that
we did was okay, let's make an

app that makes it easy to suck
from the NFTs you own and then

show an NFT on your phone And
then that quickly.

from there it was clear hey,
let's make a really cool way to

show NFTs not just on your phone
but also on a website.

And then that's how we got into,
you know, building galleries.

And then, with galleries, it
felt it's very limited, just you

can only show rows and stuff.

So we built freestyle galleries
, and so every progression has

always been what is the next
missing step on this kind of

like grand vision of building?

ultimately, what we want to
build is kind of like a society

of both the people who are in
NFTs and then this web of NFTs

as well.

Wow.

Speaker 1: Yeah, That's, yeah,
that's, that's incredible.

Thank you for, yeah, thanks for
going in, And I feel like it's

absolutely needed, And so I'm
going to, I'm going to take it a

step further and use someone
like my mother as, like a great

I'm not sure if barometer is the
right word, but like test to

ask some some bigger questions
or ask, kind of like, some more

questions geared toward the
future.

One of the biggest things that
she's like.

She's like, you know, I just I
just don't want to buy something

that I can only look on my
phone or on the computer.

You know, that's like one of
the biggest hangups.

Like for that generation it just
doesn't feel as exciting, you

know, as, say, it does for
someone like us.

And I think you know I do kind
of agree where it's like I'd

love to showcase it just outside
of my phone.

What do you think is like the
puzzle piece missing for an

argument like that?

Or what I mean?

is it here, Is it something
that may not be available for

five years, But like what do you
think is like going to get

people over that hurdle?

Speaker 2: What your mom is
saying is really true, and I'll

put it in another way.

This digital reality that we're
talking about is not yet real

for most people.

For us who are comfortable with
these digital objects that

exist in these like very limited
capacities, there are not met

many of us for whom that is
sufficient.

So let me give you an example
for us, if you send me an ether

scan link and then in other
block explorers I can check that

a transaction happened for me
and you, we're like, okay,

that's, that's, that transaction
has settled.

It is not reality And it's very
real to us.

For the vast majority of the
population on Earth, they're

going to need something a lot
more.

To take an example, when it
comes to art, i think a lot of

people can see a world where you
know AR is going to be very big

.

Yeah, it is going to be.

You know, a world that you can
interact with.

There'll be haptic devices and
feedback systems that allow them

to actually experience a
digital object as if it exists

in the physical world, and
that's an example of when, in a

very real sense, these digital
objects will come to life.

That's the other extreme, like
AR is still, i think, a long

ways away.

So there's something in the
middle that has to exist.

I think, personally, one of the
things that that that is a

precursor for these digital
objects being real is that

crypto has to become real first
for a vast majority of the

population on Earth, because
from crypto to digital objects,

that that is a small gap.

From non crypto to crypto, that
is a bigger gap.

That's the first gap.

I think it's one of the biggest
steps that's still missing.

You know, for you and me, when
we say one ETH or one Bitcoin,

it's as for us, it's like as
real as anything else, in fact,

more real than a lot of things,
right, yeah, like our belief in

these crypto assets and
currencies, they are more real

than for us, maybe more real
than Fiat, and so we've already

crossed that chasm.

A lot of people I mean probably
I haven't done the math, of

course but like 95 to 99% of the
population has not crossed the

chasm.

That's the first one.

Speaker 1: I think, yeah, i
couldn't agree more with that.

And I think about something
thank you for, yeah, you helped

frame that in a way that I
hadn't really thought about that

before, like about the gap from
crypto to digital assets.

That feels very natural.

But yeah, there's that gap
because, if I go back to

crossing the chasm of what that
meant for me For someone who

loves technology, who is always
trying to search for kind of

like the next best thing or like
the most bleeding edge or

cutting edge technology that
exists there was still a big

paradigm shift that had to occur
within me to get to that point.

For example, like when I'm
going to call back to that

clubhouse room that I went to,
where I was initially pilled

into the space.

Like it just made all the sense
in the world.

This was going to be great.

But from that moment to the
moment I actually bought my

first NFT was about four months
And I'll describe why because I

hadn't really crossed the chasm
from Fiat to crypto, like I knew

of crypto before this.

But my biggest hangup before
NFTs came along was that's great

, but what do I spend this on?

Like I saw the money going in,
but I'm like there's got to be

an exhaust.

There's got to be an output,
there's got to be something.

This is used for Now.

Granted, i did not understand
the underlying technology that

made it valuable and had no real
sense of the future at that

time, when I first heard about
it in, like, i think, 2015 or

2016.

But for me, i went down the
rabbit hole of what is a

blockchain Like, went to the
Bitcoin White Paper went to.

Then I found Ethereum like cool
.

This is essentially similar
technology, except you can

program on top of it.

That seems pretty dope.

That enables smart contracts,
that enables digital asset

ownership.

So it started to like the
building blocks, slowly started

to put them to build or to be
put in place, i should say.

But I'm trying to think first,
because that's one use case and

that's kind of the use case I
think that a lot of us here fall

into.

And it's like, how do we get
that Like?

what's like some of the easy
low hanging fruit Like help

guide people to that, and how do
we shorten that time span?

Because you can't expect a
bunch of people to go right out,

read a white paper or a lot of
white papers.

That's just not something that.

It's a pretty unreasonable
expectation, in my opinion, to

have people say, yeah, you know,
this is revolutionary, but read

this PDF first, you know.

So I've kind of racked my brain
on this education piece, like

what is kind of like the easiest
low hanging fruit that we can

at least help people on that
journey to get to the spot.

Speaker 2: It's a good question.

I've been thinking about it a
lot as well.

I don't have a complete
solution.

Sure, yeah, i mean, if I did, i
think that'd be the first thing

you know that we all everyone
in the space should be building

towards.

One of the kind of like theses
that I still hold to be true is

that art has been cut, has been
a remarkable use case of NFTs,

because, as you said, you know
nobody is going to read the

Bitcoin white paper, and if that
is the way that we're going to,

you know, let people know about
this, this vision, then it's

not going to work out Right.

But when you have art that you
show up to people, there is a

universal language of beauty,
and if they see something that's

beautiful and it's the product
of a movement that has been

created because of crypto, then
that's something that's a lot

more comprehensible, I think.

So I still think that art has
been, and will continue to be,

one of the major ways that this
concept of a digital object is

kind of introduced to people.

Speaker 1: I would agree in that
sense, because that was the way

I got motivated to learn more
about.

It was actually, you know, i'm
thinking back.

You're actually helping me jog
my memory here.

You know, it was the idea of
something that led me to it.

But, you know, when I think
about how I've explained in it,

this brings me back to how I've
explained NFTs to people.

You know like, in the beginning
I was like a Jehovah's Witness

and I was just like slapping
people on the head with like the

good word of NFTs you know like
, and most people ran away, you

know, because it was just a ball
of, like you know, emotional,

disorganized passion, you know,
and I probably did more harm to

those people in the beginning
than good.

Yeah, i just did the opposite
of what I was intending.

But to your point is that people
need to care about something

before they learn about it.

And art has been something that
I didn't know I would love so

much through this, or I had.

It was not, as we were talking
about earlier, was not on bingo

cards my bingo card that I would
fall in love with this so much.

But when I've had the most
success to onboarding people,

it's been a person that I've
known kind of well, or well

enough to know their interests,
and you know, i would share a

hypothetical example that meant
something to them, you know, and

so I see this on a level of
like okay, this is, you know,

i'm one person talking to one
person, but to do that at scale

seems like such a daunting task.

To like try to find ways in
which it appeals to people, that

makes them care enough.

To like want to learn.

Because here's the thing, let's
go a little bit deeper.

Like at the same time, you know
the paradigm shift we're

talking about the shift from
fiat to crypto like even with my

mom, even with my mom I'm going
to use her again as this

barometer here like the way she
views a bank in a wallet.

Like I had to go through the
definitions of like a wallet,

it's like you know she's like
okay, you know, when I view a

wallet, like this is how I view
it.

When I see a bank, this is how
I view it, and so you're telling

me that I'm the custodian of my
own funds.

You know, like It's really hard
to get people over that hurdle

because, especially in today's
day and age, it's just I see an

overwhelming desire for a lack
of responsibility and external

blame.

And so it's just like man.

The odds feel really stacked,
you know, like I believe in the

technology, but it's like how do
we get people who are becoming

ever so dependent upon external
objects and not wanting to take

responsibility to say hey, you
need to take responsibility for

your own financials And you are
your own bank.

You are the custodian of your
own funds.

If you make a mistake, you get
wrecked.

You know, yeah, there's a lot
to unpack there, but it's just

like that feels like one of the
biggest paradigms.

So maybe we're just solving it
through art.

Maybe that's really the
simplest answer.

Speaker 2: Yeah, what you
mentioned is so real.

So people operate around mental
models, as in.

You have a model of how the
world functions and that molds,

like your reactions and
behaviors in that system.

So for the vast majority of
everyone on earth, they have a

mental model of what finance is
today, and it's only after they

study the history of finance.

It's like, oh hey, in the past
there was no national currency.

It was like all these banks
that are introducing their own

currencies And then they had
bank runs all the time.

And it was only after all these
steps to let's create a

financial institution that
ensures deposits, let's create

these banks that have these
regulation.

And this mental model of how
finance is done was built up

over a hundred years And if you
go even back further, it's like

thousands of years that the idea
of money has been around.

It's just that this new concept
that we have introduced with

crypto, it just breaks all those
mental models and people have

to, like, pick up the pieces and
reassemble.

It's going to take time.

I think that that's the key
problem It's going to take time.

I personally think that it is
going to be one of those

situations where it's going to
happen slowly and then

everything will happen all at
once.

That's usually what happens
with most exponential systems.

Things feel really slow in most
of those systems, but as this

meme, this idea, spreads like a
virus, eventually it'll spread

like wildfire, and especially
with the current situation where

the finance of most nations is
at risk right now, crypto has a

real chance that it does become
reality for a lot of people very

quickly, very suddenly at scale
, and so the core is the mental

model, and I think it's going to
shift at some point rapidly.

Speaker 1: So I kind of like
what I'm picking up here as well

is that there needs to be an
incentive, and that incentive to

learn is becoming a little bit
greater day by day with the kind

of global currencies of the
world not global currency, but

the currencies of the world.

Speaker 2: Yeah, just like you
are, I'm currently carefully

monitoring what's happening to
the world right now, and the

situation is not good.

All the fiscal bullets have
been fired, all the monetary

bullets have been fired, and
crypto is one of those things

where.

Look at Bitcoin, it's like
truly hard money, and a lot of

people, i think, are starting to
even even if they were not

considering it, are starting to
at least hear about it, and then

not just as a get rich quick
kind of scheme or in the past

those are one of the mechanisms
by which people looked at crypto

but as a potential alternative
to the world that we live in,

and so that may be one of the
ways that crypto becomes reality

for a lot of people.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that note.

You're touching on some
arguments that I've heard a lot

before, where people really only
view a headline or watch a two

minute clip on Twitter about
something that aligns with their

beliefs.

I think we're all guilty of
that.

But yeah, that's super
interesting and I think the more

this unravels, the stronger I
feel.

And you could almost make
similar parallels in AI, where

it's like it almost just I'm not
gonna say I mean, i believe it,

but the jury's still out.

We'll see how wrong you and me
are and everyone else here, but

it just feels inevitable, very
similar to AI.

It seems a lot easier to trust
math more than humans, as much

as I love people and obviously
talk to them, because what I

enjoy doing the most, but at
scale.

You look at the financial
crisis of 2008, the housing

market crisis.

I remember watching the big
short because I was too young to

really understand what was
happening at the time and I just

remember after I watched that
movie, i was like, wow, i am

absolutely bearish on humans at
scale when it comes to financial

tools.

I felt sick to my stomach.

man, it was.

That level of greed was just.

It's just not the way you grow
up thinking about how things

should work.

It's like the government.

When you at least me growing up
it's like, okay, the

government's got their shit
together, they can generally be

trusted.

But after this I was like man,
i don't know.

Speaker 2: So, yeah, the general
dysfunction of society is.

It's one of the homers of
becoming an adult.

It's like, wow, I am surprised
that we still exist as humans.

And you know, yeah, I totally
agree with you.

I think there's always these
questions about, oh, 50 years

later, what are we going to be
surprised that we believed in or

thought was true, et cetera.

And believing in non-math based
financial slash organizational

systems will be one of the key
things.

It'll be like, oh, wow, you
believed in something that these

people just set and decided on
a quarterly basis.

That seems odd.

What are you guys thinking?

Yeah, yeah, And the data is
like, oh, you set it on a

quarterly basis and the data is
old.

It's like three months delay
and you guys thought you could

manage the economy that way.

Like, what are you guys
thinking?

It'll be one of those like
mental model shifts that happen,

I think, for everyone pretty
soon.

Speaker 1: Yeah, i mean I love
the way you also put that is

almost like a rite of passage of
becoming an adult, you know,

unlike how fragile the system
really is and kind of like what

holds it together is.

I mean it's obviously a pretty
strong meme.

You know the US dollar and just
currency in general, because

even though I think it's eroding
, it's like damn like that

belief has been pretty strong
And at one point it did seem

like it might have been okay And
it had some great foundations.

It was a great start.

It got us to this point.

So I think it's important to
not fade that, because it

created a long runway, you know,
and somehow we managed to

survive.

But I can't help but regret a
little bit My childhood about

fading math so hard.

I'm like man man, because like
that's kind of the universal

language that a lot of people
can agree upon and you can even

weave that into art.

You know some of the best art
that I've looked at.

It's just mathematically
pleasing, you know, whether it's

like you know the rule of
threes or like the Fibonacci

sequence or you know anything
that some of these artists use

to make just beautiful pieces of
work.

It just feels really good.

It's just not something I
typically.

I never equated math with
emotion, you know, but it feels

like that's a really universal
language that doesn't have any

motive to lie, it doesn't have
any motives to, you know, to be

disingenuous, it just it feels
absolute, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, trustless, it's
such a, you know, trustless,

permissionless, all these
adjectives that describe this

entire space.

There's a definite poetry to
all those words.

It really is remarkable that
you know, little bits of code

can generate these beautiful
things.

And you know, certainly money
speaks to everyone, but art

speaks across time.

It's one of those few things
that that survive civilizations

and, through the erosion of time
, these cultural objects are

often sometimes the only thing
that exists after.

You know, hundreds or even
thousands of years have passed,

and so you know who cares what
the currency was, you know, in

Rome, but the art that was
created during that time or

before, etc.

They survive and still are
emotional and beautiful,

treasured things, and so it
really is a universal language.

Speaker 1: It is.

Yeah, i mean and you could argue
just to add on to that, i don't

even know if you could argue It
just feels like a fact that

strong and powerful art is
created during times of turmoil,

you know, during times of
uncertainty.

You know, because you look at,
if you talk to 10 different

people about their view on
what's happening right now,

you're probably going to get the
same feeling, but you're going

to get 10 different answers.

You know, and it hit me when I
went to the MoMA last year after

NFT NYC and I looked at some of
the art that was created during

World War II, it was like wow,
you really get to capture and to

look at the feeling of what the
world was going through at that

time.

You know, because you probably
talked to a lot of people then

and they would have given you a
lot of different answers of what

they thought was actually going
on.

But the feeling that I felt
walking through that part of the

museum was definitely different
than the rest.

And so you know that's also
partially what makes me

incredibly excited about this
time right now is that, while

the world is kind of let's just
put it lightly figuring itself

out and we're going through a
little bit of change on a global

scale.

I feel like the art created
right now on top of the

technology that's being built is
going to be looked at as really

impactful and important for
people that study art history or

look back at it in the future.

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2: I mean you look back,
for example, at the Renaissance

and you would think that the
Renaissance is this beautiful

period of, just like you know,
artists, you know, being

creative and producing stuff,
But the Renaissance was a time

of war, like there's constant
warfare and strife, and agreed

that, you know.

I mean, some of the most
remarkable pieces come from, you

know, unfortunately, from
either personal or history a

period of strife.

One of the most powerful, you
know, war created pieces, of

course is Guernica and happened
during the Spanish Civil War And

certainly today we know we live
in a time of peace But, as far

as we can tell, major things
seem to be about to happen.

And, yes, we may be in a time
of turmoil And, yeah,

historically it could be quite
interesting for a historian, not

for the people like us who are
going to be living through it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, i think
it really could be, and it's

kind of wild.

Yeah, i think I agree with you.

Well, not, i think I do agree
with you there where it's, even

though times are kind of weird
Right now it's still technically

a time of peace, but yeah,
there's.

I think I am aligned with you
in that feeling of like.

It feels like something is
about to happen, and I'm not

quite sure what.

But you look at, just like the
global pandemic in general, that

was very unexpected and that
kind of eroded humanity a little

bit And I think it got people
in a really interesting spot.

And I think that I think that's
why I enjoy some of the art

right now, because there's like
a lot of the art to me is one

opinion of one person in the
space, in my view on it, is that

like for me personally, a lot
of the most impactful pieces

that are being created right now
, at least in like the

photography sense, which is kind
of the rabbit hole I've dove in

down a lot, is this like sense
of space and loneliness and

isolation.

It just it feels like man.

This is a.

I think everyone, regardless of
their viewpoint, can really

relate to this isolated feeling
that we're all in right now And

it just feels like this is kind
of the start of that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it just that's
what it feels, Yeah, i think

you're touching on something
that's like really powerful

because, yeah, there's so many
things that work right now.

There are a lot of things wrong
with the world.

The direction of the graph is
in the wrong direction for a lot

of things, whether it's like
the fertility rate of

populations, whether our
national finances across all

developed countries are eroding,
the increase in psychological

health problems for a lot of
people, they're all trending in

the wrong direction And you're
right that the art probably

reflects that.

You mentioned a sense of
loneliness.

One of the artists that I
recently discovered I'm sure

everybody had already discovered
him, but I discovered him

recently, like a couple months
ago was Manfredi.

He does these gray landscapes
with a single figure And you can

sense the isolation, the
emptiness, and your comment

about that really reminded me
about his work.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, i didn't
know the name, but I know the

work.

Yeah, that sense of space,
emptiness, being alone with

one's thoughts.

I'd love to go here with you
because I had this thought.

the idea was planted in my mind
a while ago when pre-Web 3,

with the rise of Web 2.

We were in a pretty healthy
economy, things were generally

up only, but yet there was this
when people are given the

ability to have a platform such
as, say, twitter or Instagram or

Meta or TikTok and all these
other things a lot of people

were saying or their arguments
against the internet was like

that.

it was destroying people, it
was making us worse.

As you mentioned, the graphs and
the numbers are going in the

wrong direction.

On a human perspective, it's
like what if we just had all of

these insecurities, these
shortcomings, these kind of ugly

parts of being a human?

What if they were just all
suppressed?

This is actually a way of us
collectively unleashing that.

What if we really had all these
problems all along, but we just

hid them really well and we
didn't really have a way to

express them?

I would love to know whether
you agree with that or disagree

with that or have any thoughts
on that, because that's my

thought as a collective
conscious.

This almost just feels like an
unleash of a lot of mental

issues that we've either not
been aware of or that we've kind

of skirted or just neatly
evaded.

Yeah, it's a big topic.

Speaker 2: I love this.

I love this deep conversation.

I think you're really right
because there's a lot of

evidence for this as well.

The picture-esque idea that we
hold about history, like people

and history, is that they Think
about the late 1800s, early

1900s kind of situation where it
felt like society wanted.

I mean, the picture I had in my
mind was the people wanted to

do the right things, They wanted
to look right, they wanted to

be What's the word?

They wanted to be upright in
society.

That's often the picture I had.

I started looking into the
history there and the history

behind drugs during the late
1800s and early 1900s is that a

big chunk of the population,
cutting across vast swaths of

society and classes and
everything, everybody was on

drugs.

A lot of your biggest authors
were on drugs.

All of the insecurities, all of
the difficulties of existence

they already were present.

It was technology at that time
drugs that magnified it and it

translated into addictive
behaviors and all the

destructive things that happened
after that.

I think technology is a
magnifier.

We have always had all of these
problems.

Another factor is that we
always look back on history and

say, oh, the glorious old days
where we had good people or good

society.

Every era had these issues, and
technology has always been a

magnifier for those problems.

I feel like you've heard
something that's pretty

important.

One thing, though to be fair,
the graphs weren't going in the

wrong direction for some time
Since 1945 onward Pax, americana

and generally peace on Earth
the graphs weren't going in the

wrong direction.

From that time period on.

It's a pretty recent phenomenon
, i think, or it could be

localized too, as in we're only
looking at the past 10 years.

It's possible during the 80s If
you look at the graph for New

York City, you might have
thought or the 70s and 80s, you

might have thought that New York
City was going to burn to the

ground or something, because of
the graphs were going in the

wrong direction.

It could be a localized
phenomenon, as in at this time

period, yes, we have problems,
but there are things that we can

recover from.

Hence, it could be our bias in
this kind of being located at

this time and looking at what we
think is a long time period,

but in historical perspective,
it's a very short time.

Speaker 1: I like that.

That makes me think about when
I have all these plans and

designs about how things should
be, or what the way I think the

world should be, or this
situation, or how that person

treated me or how they made me
feel, or why events happened a

certain way in my life.

But every time I step aside and
move out of my own way, and

every time I do that, my
experience has been that I was

usually completely wrong.

Like 93.9% of the time I was
really far off the mark.

And then not only I'll use an
example, or just a high level,

or just a not specific, but very
common in my life where I

didn't think I got something in
the time frame in which I

deserved it.

Let's just do that.

I feel like it's pretty common
for a lot of people Or I didn't

achieve something and why some
other person succeeded more than

me.

If they would have just known I
would have been in that

situation With a little time and
a little bit of humility being

brought to me by not only the
universe.

The universe includes the
people surrounding me or that

I've chosen to surround myself
with.

Not only have I gotten what I
wanted, it was just never on my

time frame And when I
surrendered my time frame,

usually I was only looking at
20% of the pie.

I had this focus and this goal
of what I really wanted and in a

time frame that I expected it
by.

And then, when I didn't, when I
just waited a little bit and

continued, there was this whole
other side that I was just

completely blind to And that was
infinitely better than I could

have ever imagined.

Now I say that in context of
what does that mean as a whole,

as a society?

Are we just in our own way,
like you said, are we burdened

with the lens of being, in this
time period, in this day and age

, looking through a specific
lens, in the grand scheme of

things, which is really, really
tiny, and could this all, in the

end, lead to a good thing Or
something better than we could

have ever anticipated?

Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, there's
that old saying where a military

saying I think or I don't know
if it's people saying but your

plan is never to survive contact
with the enemy.

And I think that's generally
true in life And so many of the

things that actually changed in
the past has never been planned.

Yeah, like the thing that
caused the Renaissance was the I

mean I don't know if it's
categorically accepted, but is

the Black Death.

I mean the Black Plague which?

I mean the Black Death which
was the plague, which society

before then was the aristocracy,
the landed people had all of

the power, and then, when
basically 25% of Europe died,

unfortunately a lot of the power
shifted to labor, which

basically freed up a lot of the.

You just put society and all of
the rules and systems you have

and you shook it and out came a
society where labor was in

shortage now And then now labor
started to gain power and

eventually freed up a lot of the
kind of like oppressive

environment And, like you know,
who could have planned for that

right?

And I think it's always the case
that all these like completely

unexpected things that changes
everything and you can never

plan for it.

So I think it happens on a very
macro level.

But on a personal level, i
totally agree with you that our

personal capacity to like
predict things is quite limited,

and by limited I mean, you know
, look at on a very narrow scale

.

You know people who are paid to
predict, so basically,

predicting markets like
investors right, there are very

few repeated winners in
investing, especially in a

timescale of decades, and so,
like it is, it is hard.

Speaker 1: Almost nobody can do
it.

You know, i've often wondered
that, like I see your yeah, and

as I'm getting more exposure to,
you know, financial products

that are being built here and
just the shenanigans for lack of

a metaphor that we're
experiencing right now, it makes

it kind of like, makes me
wonder.

I'm like man people actually
make a living being wrong 99% of

the time.

You know it's, it's kind of
wild.

You know, um begs the begs, the
nebulous kind of heady question

does AI solve prediction?

Does AI replace people that are
historically supposed to be

right, you know, that are
supposed to be trusted, yet

they're wrong?

you know, kind of like a
weather person, you know it's

like.

You know they get paid a lot of
money to be wrong most of the

time because, like, how the hell
can you predict that?

Yeah, does AI solve this?

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think it
is going to solve this.

The thing that scares me the
most about AI is that is this

One of the key mental models
that I have about about people

is that in a single brain you
have to like, upload enough

context to to understand a
problem, to solve it, And then a

lot of problems occur when that
can't happen, whether it's at a

company, whether it's at a
government level, a nation level

, If the problem becomes bigger
than what one person can hold in

their head.

There's a lot of these
organizational coordination

problems that appear.

And that's what you see with,
like corporate dysfunction,

national government dysfunction.

The thing that scares me about
AI is that for a human that

context window is quite limited
And it takes an incredible

amount of time to like increase
that context window.

So let me give you an example.

Let's say you're a
mathematician and you started in

in your early days as a, as a,
as a kid, you started to learn

about, you know, mathematical
primitives like numbers and

operations.

The depth of your context
window is actually quite limited

.

Let's say, let's take that kid
who grew up to become a

mathematician and is one of the
world's experts in a certain

like very niche part of math.

Their context window is both
very deep and also very big.

They can hold very abstract
concepts in mind because they've

had formal training for a
decade or two decades, and they

can express very abstract
thoughts and compress them and

hold that in memory And then
they can construct a you know

100 page proof that that's the
kind of like depth that I'm

thinking about.

Okay, take an AI.

The mind blowing part is that
the large language models that

exist today, their context
window is the internet Period,

as in the entirety of the
internet.

They have developed a very
sophisticated, in-depth Model

that has processed every single
Character in every single word,

in every single language.

I mean, most of it has been
trained on English, but they've

processed and it has become This
, this so-called mental model

for an AI.

It's scary because that is so
far above and beyond what a

single human is capable of
processing, and this is just the

beginning That it's a bit
insane.

So that's what I'm certainly
kind of scared about for AI.

Speaker 1: Did you listen to the
interview, the Lex Friedman

interview with Sam Altman, or do
you?

do you listen to that at all?

Speaker 2: I think I heard the
first part of it.

Oh, oh, because there's so long
I never be.

I just always like start like
five or ten minutes and then I

forget about it.

I think I heard the first five
minutes or something.

Speaker 1: That's one that I
would recommend like like going

back and listening to you know,
because it is so important.

You know, i think it's it's
it's really important, but I

remember them talking about this
like open letter that Elon Musk

had signed and, like you know,
i think a few other just like

industry leaders had signed
about.

You know, this is moving like
Pandora is already out of the

box, but there's like an open
letter to like halt AI research

for six months past, like you
know, if you're like a GPT-4

kind of system, because It could
spiral out, because there's so

much that we don't understand
There's, there's, it's, it's

evolving at a pace that, like I
don't think we really prepared

for, kind of like going drawing
back to our Initial conversation

but like, what is it going to
take for crypto?

I think AI is a kind of already
had that moment where It's been

lovely to have, like you know,
siri and Google and, like you

know, amazon, alexa and All
these like fun little AI tools

and our Gmail sentence
correction down to this very

simple level.

We've been very okay with AI at
that moment.

And then there's kind of been
this moment We're experiencing

that where it's like this, like
zero to one moment, you know

where it's like Wow, it was a
little bit at a time, and then

all at once and it feels very
Like it's hard to not get

excited about it and I'm, i'm,
i'm someone who is on the camp

more camp optimism, you know And
it kind of takes me talking to

Different people to gain a
different perspective about,

like, what this really could
mean.

Because, very just to drive
home your point of Context, i

still feel that I fully lack the
context of like, what some of

the fears even mean.

I typically only see the side
of like innovation, if that

makes sense.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the one
of the things that you mentioned

was, yeah, ai has has had its
moment.

And Also one thing that I want
to mention there is you know, it

took AI like 70 years to get
here.

A Lot of those years included
years that were slow.

Right, it's the a year in 2023
was not like a year, and you

know 1975, but but still it took
seven years.

And so, like a lot of people
forget, like oh yeah.

AI does all this stuff?

What is crypto?

do The?

the reality is that a lot of
the fundamental things that

challenge a lot of the ways that
we think about the world, they

do take a lot of time to figure
out and Seep into society, and

it's just, you know, just as you
had kind of going back to what

you had mentioned, what your mom
had said, it really is a

radical concept, you know.

And so not only is the concept
of digital objects with object

criminals radical, so is crypto.

Like all of the things that are
inside of crypto, they are

radical things that challenge
how we think about the world and

It's gonna take more than 15
years, like I think you know,

bitcoin.

My paper is like 15 years ago
or something I have forgot the

exact number, but it's around
that and it's gonna take longer

than that.

And That's one of the things I
think a lot of people forget

about AI that It's been like 70
years plus or minus, you know

whatever number of years, and
they've been through.

You know Countless winters.

It AI winter is like a real
term.

You know, like you had periods
where every the world was

promised by AI Turns out didn't
happen.

Then everything crashed back to
earth and nobody wanted to work

in AI.

Nobody wanted to, you know,
study AI, nobody wanted to

invest in AI, and that kind of
world happened, like countless

times, and so that's one of the
things that a lot of people

forgot.

I didn't even know that Yeah,
that's the reality took so many

years and Like probably like
eight nuclear winters, you know

not, not like a oh.

It's like.

Oh, ai is fine kind of thing.

It's like, oh, ai cannot do it.

And there is a.

There is a Physical difference
between you know, consciousness

and what a computer can do, and
they cannot do these things.

And Very similar actually to
these like winters that we go

through in crypto, except with
crypto.

Speaker 1: Yeah, dude, this is
really.

This brings a lot of framework
to to the time that we're in now

, one could argue.

I feel like I'm shared in this
belief that That crypto kind of

speed runs a lot of things.

Like you know, we, we
experience so much here.

There's so many things that are
happening all at the same time

that, like When I recall to a
certain moment that captivated

the timeline or that was a
really big deal, it was like it

feels like it was six months ago
, but the reality was it was

three weeks ago.

Yeah, like I Have no sense of
time.

Yeah, my sense of time has been
completely fucked by this, by

this industry right, yeah, i was
, i totally agree.

Speaker 2: Like Especially in
the bull market, and I was

telling people that crypto is
like fat, ten times faster than

anything you think about in non
crypto world.

And then NFTs are, like you
know, you know, three or five

times faster than crypto And
yeah, and so, yeah, it was like

it was a different world.

And then it was verifiable, as
in like There are not many asset

classes in the world that went
from zero to you know, 100,000

return or something in in like
two weeks or something you know.

Yeah, for certain.

I mean I don't know what the
actual multiples were, but but

that's the also the beauty of
the whole thing.

Like there are, there are
systemic issues that we have to

solve, like all the scams and
like literal scams of people

trying to like Create fake
things and get people to buy the

fake things because they're
clearly intended to be fishing.

But but, beyond that, you saw
the compression in market

activity.

You know how, like okay, so if
you see a pattern, the pattern

happens faster than next time
Because everybody Anticipates it

.

That's, that's a natural like
market activity.

Like you see, something
happened in the market.

The next time it happens, it
happens faster because you know

it's gonna happen, everybody
acts faster, but then that

compounds because the next time
means that you saw it happen

faster, so you got to act faster
before everybody acts again,

kind of thing mmm.

In NFTs and crypto.

I think that compression is
like even faster than a natural

market because it is a
Permissionless, complete open

market environment and there are
no forces at work.

You don't, you do not have a
Circuit breaker, you don't have

a nine-to-five Market open
weekends, closed world.

It's like constant, always on
permissionless.

Anybody can participate, which
means that all of the market

compressing Forces at work I
think there's is amplified and

that's the reason why everything
just happens Faster than before

and again and again.

And it's only during the bear
market that it's like it's

slowed down, that we can
actually like focus on other

things and make sure that we're
building the foundation,

infrastructure and all that
stuff.

But the next market, the bill,
the mark, the next bull market

that happens is gonna be the
same thing.

It's gonna.

It's gonna be faster than what
happened in the bull market

before.

Speaker 1: That's a really and
thank you for yeah, man, i

learned I'm learning a lot here,
because that When you have

these terms like compression,
like that, takes my sentence and

puts it into one word, you know
It's it's this compression of

time.

It's really fascinating and
it's it's super enlightening to

hear.

It's enlightening, almost kind
of exhausting to think about,

you know, because we know what's
gonna happen.

It's gonna happen again, but
faster.

I'm just like fuck man, like
God damn it.

Like, because even towards the
end of the bull run, you know, i

was just I was barely hanging
on by a thread.

I was still working a regular
job, you know, doing the podcast

and and just trying to like
make sense of it.

And I just remember, kind of
like right around December 2021,

through like March of 2022, i'm
like dude, this is just when is

When is this gonna slow down?

man, like cuz I, just I, i feel
like I've really done a number

on my body.

It's not healthy and you
combine that With me.

I was working in an industry
that it was a race to

centralization, so Working here
is like the exact opposite.

It's a race in the opposite
direction, and so my mental

capacity was just shot by like
three o'clock, because if I take

a break from my job to look at
Twitter, my mind is completely

in a different stage and It's in
the wrong frame of mind.

So it's nice I say all this to
say, even though it's painful,

even though my bags are down
absolutely horrendously, you

know it just To your point it
feels like we're getting back to

building things that people
actually want and that are

solving problems that the market
needs, and It just is so

refreshing to like Be able to
sift through the noise and find

high signal like people and
products in this time, because

it's it's it's it's easy.

I mean, you still have to look
and do you know?

I still have to look and do my
diligence, but, like the,

there's less that I have to do.

It's easier to kind of see
people for who they are right

now and It gives me a lot of
hope because I'm looking at just

Everything that's being built
right now.

It's like, oh man, this is Like
this is gonna solve a huge

problem for artists.

You know like it's gonna solve
a huge problem for collectors.

You know the ways in which
we're viewing and consuming and

the people that are still
showing up.

It's like man, like it's like I
, if these, if some of these

people are still around during
the bull run like these, are

people I just like, will
absolutely invest in all the

time, whether it's time and
money, or time or money or

whatever the case may be, it's a
really just.

It's such a duality of thought
where it's like I'm feeling like

emotionally it's just down bad.

But if you look at, if I choose
to zoom out and really look at

this for what it is or as zoom
out as much as I possibly can

with my limited perspective as a
dot on a rock floating in space

, start getting into some really
bigger questions about

simulations and what is life,
but it gives me a lot of hope

And it's great to chat with
people like you and have these

really fun kind of just I don't
know, i view them as fun, but

really fun like heady,
exploratory, big things that we

didn't really have time to talk
about when things were up.

Only You know.

It's just really refreshing
Yeah.

Speaker 2: I totally agree.

The word refreshing really
captures it.

There is so much noise during a
bull market And so you know

everybody's bags are down, of
course but, because there's so

much more signal now compared to
noise, like we can focus.

Like, for example, the thing
that we built recently the

artist profile at Taka.

It's one of those things that
it takes a lot of time to build

And during a bull market it may
not have been the thing that we

focus on, But in reality it's
one of the most critical things

that's needed for the space
Something that brings all the

work together for an artist,
puts it under a single location,

like the entirety of their
corpus, the works, the portfolio

.

That's all viable too.

So like it may not have been
one of the things that we

focused during a bull market,
but we could during a bear

market.

Speaker 1: And it's absolutely
needed.

I mean, i think you jumped
right to where I was headed, so

I think we're vibrationally
aligned here as we kind of like

wrap things up, man, you know,
like artist profiles, absolute

hit, like going back to like
what people need as a from a

collector's perspective, like
it's incredibly valuable to see,

like the breadth of an artist's
work and the story that they're

trying to tell.

You know, as much as I love all
these different platforms, it's

really hard to get a good
perspective of like what an

artist is doing and what they
like, you know, and how they

choose to spend their time here.

So it's incredibly and I
realize that like this is

probably just the beginning of
something like that And I

imagine that kind of like with a
lot of products right now, you

know, one could argue that like
this is the worst that it's ever

going to be.

You know.

So just kind of prepare for
what's headed next and the

evolution of these, because
we're building a lot of V ones

of these different concepts and
ideas.

I, you know.

So it's incredible to see
something like this and Deca's

like just been an absolute force
since day one And it's again

going back to circling all the
way back to the first part of

this conversation about, like
the that's nasty that you guys

have in the shipping and
building of products is really

admirable, and so I just like
want to thank both you and the

team for doing that, because,
yeah, it's great to as a

participant, and so I'd love to
kind of wrap things up.

If there's anything that like,
what is it that like?

if, for what you're comfortable
sharing, is there anything that

you're currently working on
that's going to be really soon,

and is there anything that
people should know about what's

currently available that you
maybe not, maybe you don't see

like a high tick of features
that are being used, would love

an opportunity for you to like
to be able to share both of

those.

Speaker 2: Yeah, so we are.

We are completely heads down
building on top of the artist

profile.

There will be additional things
that are coming out pretty soon

.

We've always tried to keep it
under the radar and then like

surprise people Sure, yeah, so
it's actually been one of them.

The really fun parts of
shipping that the best feeling

is when people are surprised by
what we built, and so I won't

mention exactly what's being
built, but so things are coming

up that I think a lot of people
are going to really enjoy And

again, another necessary puzzle
piece that's missing right now.

So I can't wait to share that
with you.

And once this thing is recorded
, once this is released,

actually I'm sure we'll we'll
already have shipped it, and

that was a very long winded way
of saying I'll tell you later.

I love it, i love it.

Oh, you know, i guess one
message that you know I want to

communicate is we've talked to a
lot of artists, a lot of

collectors, and for many of them
, now that guy is is one of the

first places they go to see.

If an artist has a profile,
because it's, it is literally

the best way to see what this
artist is like One of the key

problems with artist profiles or
you know, you know artist

websites is like.

they're all so different.

It takes a lot of cognitive work
for a person to be able to

understand what their art is
like, and so what we've heard

from a lot of collectors that
we've done user research with is

they like that it's a
homogenous presentation of

content they can immediately
grasp, and so it becomes just on

a pure timescale like I can
understand what this artist is

like in less than five seconds
kind of situation.

So if you're an artist and
you're listening, definitely

claim your artist profile.

It is one of the fastest ways
for a person to comprehend your

art, and even from my personal
you know anecdotes I've gotten

so used to just looking at the
art in that presentation format

that in a matter of seconds I
can really just understand oh

okay, this is the kind of art
that the person, this artist,

has created, and that the arc of
their evolution is also

captured there, and it's just a
really cool thing to see.

As a collector, i'm by no means
an artist, and so I can only

speak on behalf of collectors as
a collector myself, and I can't

wait to share the rest of the
artist profile that's being

built with everyone pretty soon.

Speaker 1: Incredible man.

Yeah, i couldn't agree more.

I'm just like scrolling through
some of my favorite artist

profiles right now.

Yeah, man, this is great.

Bonafide Han.

Thank you for doing this, man,
and thanks for spending so much

time.

I know you guys are always hard
at work and the day typically

never ends, so thanks for kind
of taking a pause and, yeah,

talking about everything we did,
i absolutely enjoyed some of

these.

I haven't had a chance to
discuss heady topics like this

in a while and really take a
look back at history and zoom

out on these macro perspectives,
so it's been a treat to be able

to vibe with you here today.

Speaker 2: This was really fun.

I love the format, by the way.

It's kind of like a long period
of time where you can kind of

start talking about random
things and you get into some of

the deeper things, And so it was
really great.

So thanks for creating these
podcasts and creating a format

for these conversations.

I think it's great, so really
appreciate it Absolutely, man.

Speaker 1: Thank you for those
kind words.

We'll go ahead and sign off
again, man, this has been a

treat.

I hope you have a great rest of
your day.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you too.

Speaker 1: Thank you for joining
us on another fantastic episode

of the Shiller Curated Podcast.

I hope you enjoyed the
conversation.

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